On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 02:13:11 GMT, "andrew" <and...@wicked.as> wrote: >What exactly does "let alone" mean in this example?
> Bishops shouldn't be having sex at all, let alone gay sex.
>This turn of phrase is very common where I live, but I can't parse it. Is >"let" a verb here? Subjunctive maybe?
From AHD (under 'let'): --idioms. let alone. Not to mention; much less: Their ancestors had been dirt poor and never saw royalty, let alone hung around with them (Garrison Keillor).
It may not be fruitful to try to parse an idiom, but what the heck- 'let' could be seen as an imperative verb, or a participle, and 'alone' an adjective meaning 'without even mentioning...'.
andrew <and...@wicked.as> writes: >What exactly does "let alone" mean in this example? > Bishops shouldn't be having sex at all, let alone gay sex. >This turn of phrase is very common where I live, but I can't parse it. >Is "let" a verb here? Subjunctive maybe?
"Let" is a verb, but since this is an idiom, details of its precise usage are hard to determine. Perhaps it's enough to point out that one ordinary meaning of "to let alone" is "to not mention", or, with unsplit infinitive, "not to mention", and that's the sense of the idiom.
If you want to call it subjunctive, nobody can stop you. If you want to call it aquamarine, nobody can stop you either. In both cases, the characteristic would be invisible and inaudible.
See Fillmore, C., Kay, P., and O'Connor, M.C. (1988). "Regularity and idiomaticity in grammatical constructions: The case of let alone." Language 64.3, 501-538.
-John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler U Michigan Linguistics Dept ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "A man does not know what he is saying until he knows what he is not saying." -- G.K. Chesterton, 1936, "As I Was Saying"
>>What exactly does "let alone" mean in this example?
>> Bishops shouldn't be having sex at all, let alone gay sex.
>>This turn of phrase is very common where I live, but I can't parse it. >>Is "let" a verb here? Subjunctive maybe?
>"Let" is a verb, but since this is an idiom, details of its precise usage >are hard to determine. Perhaps it's enough to point out that one ordinary >meaning of "to let alone" is "to not mention", or, with unsplit infinitive, >"not to mention", and that's the sense of the idiom.
Perhaps this lack of clarity accounts for some people hearing it as "little own", and subsequently writing that (see Google).
-- John W Hall <wweexxsseesss...@telus.net> Cochrane, Alberta, Canada. "Helping People Prosper in the Information Age"
> Perhaps this lack of clarity accounts for some people hearing it as > "little own", and subsequently writing that (see Google).
That's a good one. You got me to start updating my list of those sort of change-mistakes, like "hare's breath" for "hair's breadth," but, actually, while looking for examples of your suggestion, "little own," I got waylaid by something else. There are some nonsensical pages that I've never seen before, a sort of spam that redirects you to advertising material. The original page (which vanishes) has ordinary words but in nonsensical order.
Look at these listings in Google. The first line is the document title, then the text that actually contains "little own" disintegrates:
Buy Acyclovir Online next day delivery - order online without a ... ... Found winter perscription distribution left since we mother and saw, treatment knew wellness resources question fire little own found. ... www.noprescriptionmeds.com/buy-Acyclovir-online.html - Similar pages
Order Cheap Estradiol next day delivery - order online without a ... ... numbers. Mother dr pharmacist might amex such mother black little own, beginning looking line four problem plan semen sounds she. ... www.noprescriptionmeds.com/order-cheap-Estradiol.html - Similar pages [ More results from www.noprescriptionmeds.com ]
Instant Arizona Home Mortgage Loan With No Obligation!!! ... important little either. Own great state little own land ever girl, said shows four life given before also knew. Another money probably ... www.quickloanapplications.com/ arizona-home-mortgage-loan.html - Similar pages
Instant Washington Mutual Home Loans Rate With No Obligation!!! ... Sound point door about onnline sound under law family little, own coming vary the page started change beautiful little beginning. ... www.quickloanapplications.com/ washington-mutual-home-loans-rate.html - Similar pages
I've seen a sort of random assortment of words with porn sites (when we were searching for "ninety piece," I think it was), but for it to be for medicine and loans is new to me.
Pity. I suppose it's some sort of sheltering device, so the site won't be eliminated by filters.
When I kept looking, I saw many legimate uses of "little own," but there were also some like you describe, such as:
unable to support ourselves little own others
Back in Sept. 1998, I had no idea what a Home page was, little own what html coding was.
Matti Lamprhey wrote: > "J. W. Love" wrote... >> Donna wrote: >>> That's a good one. You got me to start updating >>> my list of those sort of change-mistakes, like >>> "hare's breath" for "hair's breadth."
>> Duck tape!
> Isn't "Duck Tape" the original, and "duct tape" the error?
Confusingly, <http://www.gale-edit.com/products/volumes/duct_tape.htm> has this: "Some say this early product was nicknamed "duct tape" because it repelled water like the bird's feathers or because the fabric mesh was made from duck cloth."
But I wonder if the "duct" is a typo, since it doesn't a lot of make sense to call a water-repelling product "duct tape". Or one made from duck, for that matter.
Or maybe, it's *again* sold that way. Manco's registration of the Duck trademark dates to only 1985, so it probably wasn't sold as "duck tape" until then. I would guess that Manco couldn't have registered the mark if it were already in common use, though I am not a trademark lawyer, and I don't play one on TV.
"Duck" is my new word for the day. It appears that the word was just sitting there for hundreds of years, waiting for the right type of adhesive to be invented.
AmHer1(1969) duck: A very durable, closely woven heavy cloth or linen fabric. [Dutch doek...]
-- --------------------------------------------- Richard Maurer To reply, remove half Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> "Duck" is my new word for the day. > It appears that the word was just sitting there for hundreds of years, > waiting for the right type of adhesive to be invented.
> AmHer1(1969) duck: A very durable, closely woven > heavy cloth or linen fabric. [Dutch doek...]
Here's a better date (329 years better):
Main Entry: 4duck Function: noun Etymology: Dutch doek cloth; akin to Old High German tuoh cloth Date: 1640 1 : a durable closely woven usually cotton fabric 2 plural : light clothes and especially trousers made of duck -- Skitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/
> Confusingly, <http://www.gale-edit.com/products/volumes/duct_tape.htm> > has this: > "Some say this early product was nicknamed "duct tape" > because it repelled water like the bird's feathers or because the > fabric mesh was made from duck cloth."
> But I wonder if the "duct" is a typo, since it doesn't a lot of make > sense to call a water-repelling product "duct tape". Or one made from > duck, for that matter.
I learned that it was called "duck tape" because it makes a quacking sound as you peel it off the roll. That seems more logical than the "waterproof" explanation.
On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 10:32:04 -0800, "Skitt" <skit...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Matti Lamprhey wrote: >> "J. W. Love" wrote... >>> Donna wrote:
>>>> That's a good one. You got me to start updating >>>> my list of those sort of change-mistakes, like >>>> "hare's breath" for "hair's breadth."
>>> Duck tape!
>> Isn't "Duck Tape" the original, and "duct tape" the error?
Not an "error", should anyone care.
>Looks that way.
Not if a high percentage of people call it duct tape, not the earlier Duck Tape. Importance factor? Approaching zero, and at the speed of light too.
Since many of us have used it to wrap both pipes and ducts, the second version makes perfect sense. Much to-do over nothing, I say again, especially since this is the umpteenth time the same trivial observation has been made by one bozo or another, this time by the Welsh one.
-- Charles Riggs
Correct the stuff that demands correction, leave the rest be.
>> Confusingly, <http://www.gale-edit.com/products/volumes/duct_tape.htm> >> has this: >> "Some say this early product was nicknamed "duct tape" >> because it repelled water like the bird's feathers or because the >> fabric mesh was made from duck cloth."
>> But I wonder if the "duct" is a typo, since it doesn't a lot of make >> sense to call a water-repelling product "duct tape". Or one made from >> duck, for that matter.
>I learned that it was called "duck tape" because it makes a quacking sound >as you peel it off the roll. That seems more logical than the "waterproof" >explanation.
My tape doesn't do that. Do you have that insurance? -- john
> >> Isn't "Duck Tape" the original, and "duct tape" the error?
> Not an "error", should anyone care.
> >Looks that way.
> Not if a high percentage of people call it duct tape, not the earlier > Duck Tape. Importance factor? Approaching zero, and at the speed of > light too.
If the original was "duck tape", then "duct tape" will always be the error. The matter is not open to descriptivism.
> Since many of us have used it to wrap both pipes and ducts, the second > version makes perfect sense. Much to-do over nothing, I say again,
It's "much ado about nothing". This is the sort of error that Fowler called "cheap originality":
I see what they say, but I sure wish they pointed to some supporting evidence. Even manufacturers fall victim to passing along mistaken information abour their own industry, sometimes. It sounds like some people called it one thing, other people called it another, and who knows what Johnson & Johnson, who invented it in 1942, called it. "Metallicized strapping tape" or something...
M-W doesn't find any mention of "duct tape" until 1970, and has no entry for "duck tape" at all.
TESS (trademark database) shows someone trademarked "The Original Duck" for their brand of duct tape in 1981, but later abandoned it, and the same year filed for "Duck Tape" which is still in force. Nothing earlier.
Following the name of the company -- Manco -- and brand back to its website, and wading through a lot of irrelevant garbage, I get:
1940 Duct tape is invented during World War II. American G.I.s use the strong, versatile adhesive for everything from repairing broken windows to makeshift bandages.
1950 The Melvin A. Anderson company, a tiny industrial tape supplier, is founded in Cleveland, Ohio.
1966 Jack Kahl joins the Melvin Anderson Company and raises sales from $80,000 to $800,000.
1971 Jack Kahl buys the Melvin A. Anderson company, renames it Manco, and begins selling to retail markets.
1985 Jack Kahl officially re-names duct tape "Duck Tape" and creates Manco T. Duck, Manco´s mascot and ambassador of good will.
So, there you go. The company that sells "Duck (brand) Tape" says they re-named it that in 1985, and they called the stuff that was invented forty years before, "duct tape".
Fist-fights should take place out in the hall. -- Best -- Donna Richoux
>Confusingly, <http://www.gale-edit.com/products/volumes/duct_tape.htm> >has this: >"Some say this early product was nicknamed "duct tape" >because it repelled water like the bird's feathers or because the >fabric mesh was made from duck cloth."
>But I wonder if the "duct" is a typo, since it doesn't a lot of make >sense to call a water-repelling product "duct tape". Or one made from >duck, for that matter.
The old saying "(Whatever) runs off me like water off a duck's back" seems to indicate that ducks, or at least their backs, are waterproof. The first time I bought this product (I didn't see it in the UK until relatively recent years) it was called "Duct Tape", but "Duck Tape" for something that resists water seems to be a good name.
John Hall <wweexxsseesss...@telus.net> wrote: > t...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote:
> >That's a good one. You got me to start updating my list of those sort of > >change-mistakes, like "hare's breath" for "hair's breadth," ...
> does your list have:
> 'tact' for 'tack' ("We'll try another tact")
No, I didn't. I had "intact/in tact/in tack/in tacked," but that's different.
> 'interm' for 'interim', though 'interm' may have become acceptable in > some circles (not mine) by now
I'm hunting for evidence that that is used. I found a great many hits for "interm," but they seem to be academic terms, short for "intermediate" or they're used in financial circles (I can't be sure if those mean "intermediate" or something else).
Oh, wait, here are some, found by searching on "in the interm":
This means that you will not have any build options, but this situation will work in the interm, until you have time to build and install PHP yourself. ...
TMN standards can take too long. in the interm proprietary solutions become available.
After six years Marine Service and having assumed family responsabilities in the interm, Dudlt joined the school on the 13th October 1947.
----
All right, let me finish pasting the list together. As I said, I don't quite know what to call them (I file them under "Change-Mistakes"), and I don't quite know how to define them, but here they are:
another tack/another tact a fly in the ointment/a flaw in the ointment another think coming/another thing coming bald-faced/boldfaced (lies) beck and call/beckon call defuse/diffuse (tension, a crisis) for all intents and purposes / for all intensive purposes / for all extents and purposes free rein/free reign get on track/get untracked hair's breadth/hare's breath (also other combos) home in on/hone in on incidents/incidence/instance intact/ in tact /in tack/ in tacked. in the interim/in the interm let alone/little own party hearty/party hardy (Nearly even in usage) piqued my curiosity/peaked my curiosity (ratio 6660:1620) prima donna/pre-madonna (deliberate? Album title) still and all/still in all toe the line/tow the line
------
My thanks to everyone who has contributed over the years.
Things I'm not putting on this list:
Dictionary-accepted spelling variants. Single occurrences; I'm looking for a degree of wide-spreadness.
Donna Richoux <t...@euronet.nl> wrote: > All right, let me finish pasting the list together. As I said, I don't > quite know what to call them (I file them under "Change-Mistakes"), and > I don't quite know how to define them, but here they are:
> another tack/another tact > a fly in the ointment/a flaw in the ointment > another think coming/another thing coming > bald-faced/boldfaced (lies) > beck and call/beckon call > defuse/diffuse (tension, a crisis) > for all intents and purposes / for all intensive purposes / > for all extents and purposes > free rein/free reign > get on track/get untracked > hair's breadth/hare's breath (also other combos) > home in on/hone in on > incidents/incidence/instance > intact/ in tact /in tack/ in tacked. > in the interim/in the interm > let alone/little own > party hearty/party hardy (Nearly even in usage) > piqued my curiosity/peaked my curiosity (ratio 6660:1620) > prima donna/pre-madonna (deliberate? Album title) > still and all/still in all > toe the line/tow the line
> ------ > My thanks to everyone who has contributed over the years.
> Things I'm not putting on this list:
> Dictionary-accepted spelling variants. > Single occurrences; I'm looking for a degree of wide-spreadness.
After I posted that, I realized I had a few more that I kept separate because they were older. Also the historical association is not always certain:
nip it in the bud/nip it in the butt not by a long chalk / not by a long shot off one's own bat/off one's own back palm off/pawn off/(pass off) spitting image / spit and image / spirit and image / split and image strait and narrow (from Bible) --> straight and narrow (used since 1930)
When I was a kid, I said "minus well" for "might as well." "If you're gonna kick that ball, you minus well put on your cleats." And I still catch myself saying it.
John Hall <wweexxsseesss...@telus.net> wrote: > On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 20:08:44 +0100, t...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) > wrote: > >... > >All right, let me finish pasting the list together.
> Whoa! Not so fast, lady. > Doesn't "a moot point/a mute point" belong in there also?
Don't worry, I save these things, so it will show up next time.
While I was checking to see how much "mute point" is used, I noticed this list of similar blunders:
DOYLE60 <doyl...@aol.com> wrote: > When I was a kid, I said "minus well" for "might as well." "If you're gonna > kick that ball, you minus well put on your cleats." And I still catch myself > saying it.
That one's new to me, but you're not alone. I find examples such as:
I guess I minus well shut this club down!
you minus well be running no firewall at all
you minus well take off that first post on top!
If you asks me one thing about her you minus well asks me everything else
I didn't get a sense of numbers right away, because so many of the hits were coincidental uses of "minus" next to "well". Let me try a phrase:
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