Euphemism

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Ever since I first met it I've thought "pass away" a ridiculous way of
saying "die", but I came across a particularly egregious example today.
In a web page about Hipatia of Alexandria it said "Hipatia was born in
355 approximately, and past away in 415". So this question is directed
towards those who would say "pass away" at all: do you think it
adequately invokes being gang-raped by a bunch of monks, followed by
being flayed with oyster shells?

If you've read The Loved One you'll remember that Evelyn Waugh
ridiculed this type of euphemism, describing, for example, suicide by
hanging as "passing away with a rope", etc.

The French are a bit inclined to say things like "il nous a quitt�" to
mean "he has died", but I don't find that as objectionable.

--
athel

[Jennifer Murphy]

On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 15:37:40 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

>Ever since I first met it I've thought "pass away" a ridiculous way of
>saying "die", but I came across a particularly egregious example today.
>In a web page about Hipatia of Alexandria it said "Hipatia was born in
>355 approximately, and past away in 415".

Shouldn't that be "passed away"?

I don't have a problem with the euphemism in conversation with the
bereaved. In an historical text, it seems un-academic and possibly a
little dishonest.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2013-03-30 14:47:23 +0000, Jennifer Murphy said:

> On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 15:37:40 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>
>> Ever since I first met it I've thought "pass away" a ridiculous way of
>> saying "die", but I came across a particularly egregious example today.
>> In a web page about Hipatia of Alexandria it said "Hipatia was born in
>> 355 approximately, and past away in 415".
>
> Shouldn't that be "passed away"?

Of course, but I was quoting, and when quoting you should report what
people wrote, not what you think they should have written. If it's
obviously a typo you can silently correct it (so if you see "teh" you
can usually change it to "the" without making an issue of it), but I
don't think this was a typo. If I'd been worried that people would have
thought that's how I would write "passed" I could have added a "[sic]",
but I didn't think that was necessary.

>
> I don't have a problem with the euphemism in conversation with the
> bereaved. In an historical text, it seems un-academic and possibly a
> little dishonest.

--
athel

[James Silverton]

I would agree. I don't like euphemisms but an exception might be made
when talking to bereaved persons. Hypatia's death was traditionally not
peaceful at all; murdered by ignorant Egyptian monks, wasn't it?
--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not" in Reply To.

[Arcadian Rises]

On Mar 30, 10:37 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr>
wrote:

> Ever since I first met it I've thought "pass away" a ridiculous way of
> saying "die", but I came across a particularly egregious example today.
> In a web page about Hipatia of Alexandria it said "Hipatia was born in
> 355 approximately, and past away in 415". So this question is directed
> towards those who would say "pass away" at all: do you think it
> adequately invokes being gang-raped by a bunch of monks, followed by
> being flayed with oyster shells?
>
> If you've read The Loved One you'll remember that Evelyn Waugh
> ridiculed this type of euphemism, describing, for example, suicide by
> hanging as "passing away with a rope", etc.
>

> The French are a bit inclined to say things like "il nous a quitté" to

> mean "he has died", but I don't find that as objectionable.
>
> --
> athel

Would you prefer the word "expired", which is also used for perishable
merchandise?

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2013-03-30 15:09:35 +0000, Arcadian Rises said:

> On Mar 30, 10:37�am, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr>
> wrote:
>> Ever since I first met it I've thought "pass away" a ridiculous way of
>> saying "die", but I came across a particularly egregious example today.
>> In a web page about Hipatia of Alexandria it said "Hipatia was born in
>> 355 approximately, and past away in 415". So this question is directed
>> towards those who would say "pass away" at all: do you think it
>> adequately invokes being gang-raped by a bunch of monks, followed by
>> being flayed with oyster shells?
>>
>> If you've read The Loved One you'll remember that Evelyn Waugh
>> ridiculed this type of euphemism, describing, for example, suicide by
>> hanging as "passing away with a rope", etc.
>>

>> The French are a bit inclined to say things like "il nous a quitt�" to

>> mean "he has died", but I don't find that as objectionable.
>>
>> --
>> athel
>
> Would you prefer the word "expired", which is also used for perishable
> merchandise?

What's wrong with "died"?


--
athel

[Arcadian Rises]

On Mar 30, 11:02 am, James Silverton <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net>
wrote:

> On 3/30/2013 10:47 AM, Jennifer Murphy wrote:> On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 15:37:40 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden

> > <acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>
> >> Ever since I first met it I've thought "pass away" a ridiculous way of
> >> saying "die", but I came across a particularly egregious example today.
> >> In a web page about Hipatia of Alexandria it said "Hipatia was born in
> >> 355 approximately, and past away in 415".
>
> > Shouldn't that be "passed away"?
>
> > I don't have a problem with the euphemism in conversation with the
> > bereaved. In an historical text, it seems un-academic and possibly a
> > little dishonest.
>
> I would agree. I don't like euphemisms

I don;t think it's a matter of liking euphemisms or being direct.

Some, many people are afraid of death, either their own, or of loved
ones, and try to hide their fear, or shock, behind other than the
appropriate word. For similar reason, some people don't even pronounce
the word "cancer".

> but an exception might be made
> when talking to bereaved persons. Hypatia's death was traditionally not
> peaceful at all; murdered by ignorant Egyptian monks, wasn't it?

Perhaps the writer didn't want to shock us with Hypatia's demise and
broke the news gently?

I agree that in the given context the euphemism was ridiculous.

Speaking of euphemisms of death I like "He joined his ancestors".

[Peter Brooks]

On Mar 30, 4:37 pm, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>
>
> If you've read The Loved One you'll remember that Evelyn Waugh
> ridiculed this type of euphemism, describing, for example, suicide by
> hanging as "passing away with a rope", etc.
>

Lovely book! Yes, it is daft. 'Died' works perfectly well. 'Snuffed
it', 'pegged out', or 'kicked the bucket' aren't that nice to use with
the recently bereaved, but 'died' is quite reasonable.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

I had a little bet with myself before I started this topic: I said,
even if no one else agrees with me, Peter Brooks will. I see that I won
my bet.


--
athel

[Jerry Friedman]

On Mar 30, 8:37 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> Ever since I first met it I've thought "pass away" a ridiculous way of
> saying "die", but I came across a particularly egregious example today.
> In a web page about Hipatia of Alexandria it said "Hipatia was born in
> 355 approximately, and past away in 415". So this question is directed
> towards those who would say "pass away" at all: do you think it
> adequately invokes being gang-raped by a bunch of monks, followed by
> being flayed with oyster shells?

If it's this page

http://hipatiapress.com/en/2011/08/29/hipatia-from-alexandria/

it's clearly not by a native speaker of English and might be a
translation from Spanish ("falleció"?).

I definitely don't like "pass away" or other euphemisms for the deaths
of historical figures or in any academic writing. As people have
said, I can see using euphemisms with the bereaved.

Despite the literal meaning of "pass away", I think it's just a
euphemism--it doesn't connote a peaceful death.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter Young]

King Solomon had 500 wives, and slept with his fathers.

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2013-03-30 16:59:00 +0000, Jerry Friedman said:

> On Mar 30, 8:37 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>> Ever since I first met it I've thought "pass away" a ridiculous way of
>> saying "die", but I came across a particularly egregious example today.
>> In a web page about Hipatia of Alexandria it said "Hipatia was born in
>> 355 approximately, and past away in 415". So this question is directed
>> towards those who would say "pass away" at all: do you think it
>> adequately invokes being gang-raped by a bunch of monks, followed by
>> being flayed with oyster shells?
>
> If it's this page
>
> http://hipatiapress.com/en/2011/08/29/hipatia-from-alexandria/

Yes, it was.

>
> it's clearly not by a native speaker of English and might be a
> translation from Spanish ("falleció"?).

Probably you're right.

>
> I definitely don't like "pass away" or other euphemisms for the deaths
> of historical figures or in any academic writing. As people have
> said, I can see using euphemisms with the bereaved.
>
> Despite the literal meaning of "pass away", I think it's just a
> euphemism--it doesn't connote a peaceful death.

I think that's a difference between AmE and BrE speakers. You're so
used to it as an expression meaning "die" that it doesn't occur to you
to analyse it by components. I doubt whether Evelyn Waugh would have
bothered to make fun of it if he hadn't heard it the same way as I do.

Completely OT, and inexcusable except that I can't remember where this
came up recently, but …

… am I right in thinking that you are a fan of Dorothy L. Sayers? If
so, have you read Thrones, Dominations, started by Sayers but completed
by Jill Paton? It is the only book I've read where someone tries to add
to the work of a deceased writer in which I really can't tell which
parts were authentic and which were written later. (It contrasts, for
example, with the feeble efforts I've read to write sequels to Pride
and Prejudice). I feel I'm hearing Sayers's voice and style throughout
Thrones, Dominations. (The main thing I don't like about it is the
title.)


--
athel

[Skitt]

Arcadian Rises wrote:

> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

>> Ever since I first met it I've thought "pass away" a ridiculous way of
>> saying "die", but I came across a particularly egregious example today.
>> In a web page about Hipatia of Alexandria it said "Hipatia was born in
>> 355 approximately, and past away in 415". So this question is directed
>> towards those who would say "pass away" at all: do you think it
>> adequately invokes being gang-raped by a bunch of monks, followed by
>> being flayed with oyster shells?
>>
>> If you've read The Loved One you'll remember that Evelyn Waugh
>> ridiculed this type of euphemism, describing, for example, suicide by
>> hanging as "passing away with a rope", etc.
>>

>> The French are a bit inclined to say things like "il nous a quitt�" to

>> mean "he has died", but I don't find that as objectionable.
>

> Would you prefer the word "expired", which is also used for perishable
> merchandise?
>

Joined the Choir Invisible.

--
Skitt (SF Bay Area)
http://home.comcast.net/~skitt99/main.html

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2013-03-30 17:40:17 +0000, Skitt said:

> Arcadian Rises wrote:
>> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
>>> Ever since I first met it I've thought "pass away" a ridiculous way of
>>> saying "die", but I came across a particularly egregious example today.
>>> In a web page about Hipatia of Alexandria it said "Hipatia was born in
>>> 355 approximately, and past away in 415". So this question is directed
>>> towards those who would say "pass away" at all: do you think it
>>> adequately invokes being gang-raped by a bunch of monks, followed by
>>> being flayed with oyster shells?
>>>
>>> If you've read The Loved One you'll remember that Evelyn Waugh
>>> ridiculed this type of euphemism, describing, for example, suicide by
>>> hanging as "passing away with a rope", etc.
>>>

>>> The French are a bit inclined to say things like "il nous a quitté" to

>>> mean "he has died", but I don't find that as objectionable.
>>
>> Would you prefer the word "expired", which is also used for perishable
>> merchandise?
>>
> Joined the Choir Invisible.

This parrot is no more. It has ceased to be. It's expired and gone to
meet its maker. This is a late parrot. It's a stiff. Bereft of life, it
rests in peace. If you hadn't nailed it to the perch, it would be
pushing up the daisies. It's rung down the curtain and joined the choir
invisible. This is an ex-parrot.”
--
athel

[R H Draney]

Athel Cornish-Bowden filted:

>
>On 2013-03-30 15:09:35 +0000, Arcadian Rises said:
>
>> On Mar 30, 10:37�am, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr>
>> wrote:
>>> Ever since I first met it I've thought "pass away" a ridiculous way of
>>> saying "die", but I came across a particularly egregious example today.
>>>

>>> If you've read The Loved One you'll remember that Evelyn Waugh
>>> ridiculed this type of euphemism, describing, for example, suicide by
>>> hanging as "passing away with a rope", etc.
>>>
>>> The French are a bit inclined to say things like "il nous a quitt�" to
>>> mean "he has died", but I don't find that as objectionable.
>>

>> Would you prefer the word "expired", which is also used for perishable
>> merchandise?
>
>What's wrong with "died"?

For one thing, the Parrot Sketch would have been much shorter....

My favorite euphemism for death, gleaned from a report on alt.obituaries some
years back, is "kissed the inflatable octopus"....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Stan Brown]

On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 15:37:40 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> Ever since I first met it I've thought "pass away" a ridiculous way of
> saying "die", but I came across a particularly egregious example today.
> In a web page about Hipatia of Alexandria it said "Hipatia was born in
> 355 approximately, and past away in 415". So this question is directed
> towards those who would say "pass away" at all: do you think it
> adequately invokes being gang-raped by a bunch of monks, followed by
> being flayed with oyster shells?

No, and not just because the past tense of "pass" is "passed", not
"past".

I don't mind "pass away" for "die", but for some reason the bare
"pass" for "die" sets my teeth on edge.

--
"The difference between the /almost right/ word and the /right/ word
is ... the difference between the lightning-bug and the lightning."
--Mark Twain
Stan Brown, Tompkins County, NY, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com

[Stan Brown]

On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 17:13:55 GMT, Peter Young wrote:
> King Solomon had 500 wives, and slept with his fathers.
>

He was a necrophiliac?

[Stan Brown]

On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 10:40:17 -0700, Skitt wrote:

>
> Arcadian Rises wrote:
> > Would you prefer the word "expired", which is also used for perishable
> > merchandise?
> >
> Joined the Choir Invisible.

Kicked the bucket?

Bought the farm?

If I weren't so lazy I'd pull my copy of /Brewer's/ off the shelf and
find the origin of both those phrases.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 14:04:32 -0400, Stan Brown
<the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:

>On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 10:40:17 -0700, Skitt wrote:
>>
>> Arcadian Rises wrote:
>> > Would you prefer the word "expired", which is also used for perishable
>> > merchandise?
>> >
>> Joined the Choir Invisible.
>
>
>Kicked the bucket?
>
>Bought the farm?
>
>If I weren't so lazy I'd pull my copy of /Brewer's/ off the shelf and
>find the origin of both those phrases.

I had to walk close to my copy so grabbed it in passing. (Not that sort
of passing.)

Kicked the bucket: Uncertain provenance.

(1) 'bucket' is from Old French _buquet_, balance, referring to the
beam from which a pig was hung for slaughter;
(2) the bucket was the upturned one on which a suicide stood,
kicking it away to hang himself;
(3) the bucket is the one formerly put out to collect for the widow
of a workmate, some of those passing simply kicking the
bucket instead of throwing in a coin.

Bought the farm: Not in Brewer's.

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/72850.html

Bought the farm

To die, particularly in an accident or military action

Origin

<various comments and suggestions>

A third suggestion is the idea that, if a serviceman was killed in
action, his family would receive a payout from the insurance that
service personnel were issued with. This would be sufficient to pay
off the family mortgage.

My [Gary Martin, the author of this site] twopenneth is on the last
explanation but, given that we don't have the full evidence, that's
just speculation.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Sam Plusnet]

In article <MPG.2bc0f2ba...@news.individual.net>,
the_sta...@fastmail.fm says...

>
> On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 17:13:55 GMT, Peter Young wrote:
> > King Solomon had 500 wives, and slept with his fathers.
> >
>
> He was a necrophiliac?

Perhaps that should have read

"King Solomon had 500 wives, and slept with his father's."

--
Sam

[Arcadian Rises]

On Mar 30, 3:03 pm, Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
> In article <MPG.2bc0f2ba954a52698d...@news.individual.net>,
> the_stan_br...@fastmail.fm says...

>
>
>
> > On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 17:13:55 GMT, Peter Young wrote:
> > > King Solomon had 500 wives, and slept with his fathers.
>
> > He was a necrophiliac?
>
> Perhaps that should have read
>
> "King Solomon had 500 wives, and slept with his father's."
>
> --
> Sam

Or, "King Solomon had 500 wives and slept with their fathers".

[R H Draney]

Arcadian Rises filted:

>
>On Mar 30, 3:03=A0pm, Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
>> In article <MPG.2bc0f2ba954a52698d...@news.individual.net>,
>> the_stan_br...@fastmail.fm says...
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 17:13:55 GMT, Peter Young wrote:
>> > > King Solomon had 500 wives, and slept with his fathers.
>>
>> > He was a necrophiliac?
>>
>> Perhaps that should have read
>>
>> "King Solomon had 500 wives, and slept with his father's."
>

>Or, "King Solomon had 500 wives and slept with their fathers".

Anyone with 500 wives isn't going to be getting much sleep....r

[R H Draney]

Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> filted:

What's he got for "No Longer Shopping The Pig"?...r

[Iain Archer]

Arcadian Rises wrote on Sat, 30 Mar 2013 at 08:09:35 GMT

>On Mar 30, 10:37�am, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr>
>wrote:
>> Ever since I first met it I've thought "pass away" a ridiculous way of
>> saying "die", but I came across a particularly egregious example today.
>> In a web page about Hipatia of Alexandria it said "Hipatia was born in
>> 355 approximately, and past away in 415". So this question is directed
>> towards those who would say "pass away" at all: do you think it
>> adequately invokes being gang-raped by a bunch of monks, followed by
>> being flayed with oyster shells?
>>
>> If you've read The Loved One you'll remember that Evelyn Waugh
>> ridiculed this type of euphemism, describing, for example, suicide by
>> hanging as "passing away with a rope", etc.
>>

>> The French are a bit inclined to say things like "il nous a quitt�" to

>> mean "he has died", but I don't find that as objectionable.
>>
>> --
>> athel
>
>Would you prefer the word "expired", which is also used for perishable
>merchandise?

I have used best_before_end as a personal board login name.
--
Iain Archer

[Mark Brader]

Athel Cornish-Bowden:

>>> Ever since I first met it I've thought "pass away" a ridiculous way of
>>> saying "die", but I came across a particularly egregious example today.
>>> In a web page about Hipatia of Alexandria it said "Hipatia was born in
>>> 355 approximately, and past away in 415".

> If I'd been worried that people would have thought that's how I would
> write "passed" I could have added a "[sic]", but I didn't think that
> was necessary.

I didn't imagine you miscopied it, but this being alt.usage.english,
I thought it was going to be the reason you were quoting the passage.

As to your original question:

>>> do you think it adequately invokes being gang-raped by a bunch of
>>> monks, followed by being flayed with oyster shells?

Obviously the original writer had no intention of invoking that, so yes,
it does an adequate job, which is none at all.
--
Mark Brader "I am taking what you write in the spirit in
Toronto which it is intended. That's the problem."
m...@vex.net -- Tony Cooper

My text in this article is in the public domain.

[Mark Brader]

Athel Cornish-Bowden quotes:

> This parrot is no more. It has ceased to be. It's expired and gone to
> meet its maker. This is a late parrot. It's a stiff. Bereft of life, it
> rests in peace. If you hadn't nailed it to the perch, it would be
> pushing up the daisies. It's rung down the curtain and joined the choir
> invisible. This is an ex-parrot.

ObSignature:
--
Mark Brader, Toronto, m...@vex.net
The precedence don't enter into it -- it's stone undefined.
This expression makes no sense. It has ceased to be. It's
expired and gone, though sadly not forgotten. This is a latent
expression. Bereft of meaning, it should rest in peace. If
people didn't keep nailing it into these discussions, it would be

pushing up the daisies. It's rung down the curtain and joined

the choir ineffable. This is not an ex-pression.
-- Steve Summit (after Monty Python)

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Nothing.

[Cheryl]

"Died" doesn't imply being flayed with oyster shells any more than
"passed away" does. If you don't want to get into the details of the
death, well, that's what euphemisms are for. If you do, you should put a
bit in the sentence about the oyster shells.

It does seem odd to see that particular euphemism in a recounting of a
death of such antiquity. I don't think people usually bother when
describing deaths that took place a long time ago. Mostly they use it
when they don't want to upset the recently bereaved, or as a kind of
verbal signal on the part of the recently bereaved that they don't want
to described the painful details yet again with some chance-met
acquaintance.

--
Cheryl

[John Dean]

"Athel Cornish-Bowden" <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote in message
news:aroblf...@mid.individual.net...

> Ever since I first met it I've thought "pass away" a ridiculous way of
> saying "die", but I came across a particularly egregious example today. In
> a web page about Hipatia of Alexandria it said "Hipatia was born in 355
> approximately, and past away in 415". So this question is directed towards
> those who would say "pass away" at all: do you think it adequately invokes
> being gang-raped by a bunch of monks, followed by being flayed with oyster
> shells?
>

It's usually the first thing I think of. Then I'm surprised when it turns
out to refer to some old beezer who croaks it under his own duvet.
I think it's strange that you ridicule a euphemism for being euphemistic.
That's the whole point. If a euphemism graphically conveyed the real world
it wouldn't be a euphemism. As OED explains:

"That figure of speech which consists in the substitution of a word or
expression of comparatively favourable implication or less unpleasant
associations, instead of the harsher or more offensive one that would more
precisely designate what is intended."

--
John Dean

[Robert Bannister]

On 30/03/13 11:09 PM, Arcadian Rises wrote:
> On Mar 30, 10:37 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr>
> wrote:
>> Ever since I first met it I've thought "pass away" a ridiculous way of
>> saying "die", but I came across a particularly egregious example today.
>> In a web page about Hipatia of Alexandria it said "Hipatia was born in
>> 355 approximately, and past away in 415". So this question is directed
>> towards those who would say "pass away" at all: do you think it
>> adequately invokes being gang-raped by a bunch of monks, followed by
>> being flayed with oyster shells?
>>
>> If you've read The Loved One you'll remember that Evelyn Waugh
>> ridiculed this type of euphemism, describing, for example, suicide by
>> hanging as "passing away with a rope", etc.
>>

>> The French are a bit inclined to say things like "il nous a quitt�" to

>> mean "he has died", but I don't find that as objectionable.
>>
>> --
>> athel
>
> Would you prefer the word "expired", which is also used for perishable
> merchandise?
>

They've changed the layout now, but a decade or so ago, my Mastercard
used to read:
"ROBERT BANNISTER expires 14/02/91", which I found a trifle worrying.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 31/03/13 12:59 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Mar 30, 8:37 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>> Ever since I first met it I've thought "pass away" a ridiculous way of
>> saying "die", but I came across a particularly egregious example today.
>> In a web page about Hipatia of Alexandria it said "Hipatia was born in
>> 355 approximately, and past away in 415". So this question is directed
>> towards those who would say "pass away" at all: do you think it
>> adequately invokes being gang-raped by a bunch of monks, followed by
>> being flayed with oyster shells?
>
> If it's this page
>
> http://hipatiapress.com/en/2011/08/29/hipatia-from-alexandria/
>
> it's clearly not by a native speaker of English and might be a

> translation from Spanish ("falleci�"?).

>
> I definitely don't like "pass away" or other euphemisms for the deaths
> of historical figures or in any academic writing. As people have
> said, I can see using euphemisms with the bereaved.
>
> Despite the literal meaning of "pass away", I think it's just a
> euphemism--it doesn't connote a peaceful death.

My personal opinion only, but I feel it does at least suggest peaceful
death. The alternative, even to the recently bereaved is "he/she was
killed" whether the agent was a truck, the Taliban or the doctor. When
your loved one dies of cancer or heart attack, you feel sad and possibly
want to be soothed, but when it was because he/she was mugged on the way
home from work, you feel angry and I don't think "passed away" is going
to cut it.

--
Robert Bannister

[Stan Brown]

On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 18:52:17 +0000, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>
> On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 14:04:32 -0400, Stan Brown
> <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> >Kicked the bucket?
> >
> >Bought the farm?
> >
> >If I weren't so lazy I'd pull my copy of /Brewer's/ off the shelf and
> >find the origin of both those phrases.
>
> I had to walk close to my copy so grabbed it in passing. (Not that sort
> of passing.)

LOL!

[provenances, snipped]

Thanks, Peter!

[Stan Brown]

I'm not sure that's better -- it didn't work out too well for
Oedipus.

[Iain Archer]

Robert Bannister wrote on Sun, 31 Mar 2013 at 08:36:35 GMT

I share your view that it implies a fairly orderly and peaceful process.

I suppose it is possible to interpret it as the soul's quiet and easy
transition from one domain to another, irrespective and independent of
whatever pains or horrors the embodied mind might be experiencing. In
that case, it might not be regarded as a euphemism.
--
Iain Archer

[Jerry Friedman]

On Mar 30, 11:21 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr>

wrote:
> On 2013-03-30 16:59:00 +0000, Jerry Friedman said:
>
> > On Mar 30, 8:37 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> >> Ever since I first met it I've thought "pass away" a ridiculous way of
> >> saying "die", but I came across a particularly egregious example today.
> >> In a web page about Hipatia of Alexandria it said "Hipatia was born in
> >> 355 approximately, and past away in 415". So this question is directed
> >> towards those who would say "pass away" at all: do you think it
> >> adequately invokes being gang-raped by a bunch of monks, followed by
> >> being flayed with oyster shells?
>
> > If it's this page
>
> >http://hipatiapress.com/en/2011/08/29/hipatia-from-alexandria/
>
> Yes, it was.
>
>
>
> > it's clearly not by a native speaker of English and might be a
> > translation from Spanish ("falleció"?).
>
> Probably you're right.
>
>
>
> > I definitely don't like "pass away" or other euphemisms for the deaths
> > of historical figures or in any academic writing.  As people have
> > said, I can see using euphemisms with the bereaved.
>
> > Despite the literal meaning of "pass away", I think it's just a
> > euphemism--it doesn't connote a peaceful death.
>
> I think that's a difference between AmE and BrE speakers. You're so
> used to it as an expression meaning "die" that it doesn't occur to you
> to analyse it by components.

Well, I'm sure that people aren't.

Maybe not enough of us have read Donne. "As virtuous men pass mildly
away..."

> I doubt whether Evelyn Waugh would have
> bothered to make fun of it if he hadn't heard it the same way as I do.

Waugh's line is still funny just because "pass away" is a euphemism.

> Completely OT, and inexcusable except that I can't remember where this
> came up recently, but …
>
> … am I right in thinking that you are a fan of Dorothy L. Sayers?

Yep.

> If
> so, have you read Thrones, Dominations, started by Sayers but completed
> by Jill Paton? It is the only book I've read where someone tries to add
> to the work of a deceased writer in which I really can't tell which
> parts were authentic and which were written later. (It contrasts, for
> example, with the feeble efforts I've read to write sequels to Pride
> and Prejudice). I feel I'm hearing Sayers's voice and style throughout
> Thrones, Dominations. (The main thing I don't like about it is the
> title.)

There were times when I couldn't tell, and times when I thought I
knew. I think I remember a "facilitate" that sounded post-Sayers.
Also maybe a shortage of quotations, or things that looked like
quotations, in some parts.

I've often thought I could do a good job of imitating someone's style,
but I'm sure I'd do worse than Walsh. After all, there were parts
where I couldn't tell who was writing. What you really need is a
committee, because different people notice different anachronisms.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jennifer Murphy]

That's like the old Rodney Dangerfield joke about being given a
prescription by his doctor and told that he would have to take it for
the rest of his life, then looking at the bottle and seeing "Refills:
3".

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> writes:

> On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 19:03:28 -0000, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>
>> In article <MPG.2bc0f2ba...@news.individual.net>,
>> the_sta...@fastmail.fm says...
>> >
>> > On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 17:13:55 GMT, Peter Young wrote:
>> > > King Solomon had 500 wives, and slept with his fathers.
>> > >
>> >
>> > He was a necrophiliac?
>>
>> Perhaps that should have read
>>
>> "King Solomon had 500 wives, and slept with his father's."
>
> I'm not sure that's better -- it didn't work out too well for
> Oedipus.

Well his dad had seven wives other than Sol's mom.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |I believe there are more instances
SF Bay Area (1982-) |of the abridgment of the freedom of
Chicago (1964-1982) |the people by gradual and silent
|encroachments of those in power
evan.kir...@gmail.com |than by violent and sudden
|usurpations.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | James Madison

[Peter Brooks]

On Mar 30, 6:35 pm, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> On 2013-03-30 16:13:08 +0000, Peter Brooks said:

>
> > On Mar 30, 4:37 pm, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>
> >> If you've read The Loved One you'll remember that Evelyn Waugh
> >> ridiculed this type of euphemism, describing, for example, suicide by
> >> hanging as "passing away with a rope", etc.
>

> > Lovely book! Yes, it is daft. 'Died' works perfectly well. 'Snuffed
> > it', 'pegged out', or 'kicked the bucket' aren't that nice to use with
> > the recently bereaved, but 'died' is quite reasonable.
>
> I had a little bet with myself before I started this topic: I said,
> even if no one else agrees with me, Peter Brooks will. I see that I won
> my bet.
>
Congratulations.

[Peter Brooks]

On Mar 31, 2:28 am, Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> wrote:
> On 30/03/13 11:09 PM, Arcadian Rises wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 30, 10:37 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr>
> > wrote:
> >> Ever since I first met it I've thought "pass away" a ridiculous way of
> >> saying "die", but I came across a particularly egregious example today.
> >> In a web page about Hipatia of Alexandria it said "Hipatia was born in
> >> 355 approximately, and past away in 415". So this question is directed
> >> towards those who would say "pass away" at all: do you think it
> >> adequately invokes being gang-raped by a bunch of monks, followed by
> >> being flayed with oyster shells?
>
> >> If you've read The Loved One you'll remember that Evelyn Waugh
> >> ridiculed this type of euphemism, describing, for example, suicide by
> >> hanging as "passing away with a rope", etc.
>

> >> The French are a bit inclined to say things like "il nous a quitté" to

> >> mean "he has died", but I don't find that as objectionable.
>
> >> --
> >> athel
>
> > Would you prefer the word "expired", which is also used for perishable
> > merchandise?
>
> They've changed the layout now, but a decade or so ago, my Mastercard
> used to read:
> "ROBERT BANNISTER expires 14/02/91", which I found a trifle worrying.
>

Like the people at airports who ask 'Is that your final destination?',
to which the only sensible answer of anybody but a suicide is 'I hope
not'.

[R H Draney]

Robert Bannister filted:

Have to be at least a couple of decades, else why wouldn't you have already
thrown that card away?...

Every time I'm in a supermarket I'll hear an announcement over the PA something
like "Becky, call on line six", followed less than a minute later by "cancel
Becky"...I want to know who has such power over Becky that they can just cancel
her without so much as a by-your-leave....r

[R H Draney]

Iain Archer filted:
>
>I suppose it is possible to interpret [passing away] as the soul's quiet and

>easy
>transition from one domain to another, irrespective and independent of
>whatever pains or horrors the embodied mind might be experiencing. In
>that case, it might not be regarded as a euphemism.

Whatever its shortcomings, it avoids the problem of boldly asserting just what
follows this life...you're definitely "passing" from something to something
else, whether it's from vale of tears to Elysian fields, homo sapiens to newborn
capybara or whatever it turns out to be, corporeal to ethereal, or just being to
not being....r

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

I've been having similar thoughts.

Sometimes the phrase "passed on" is used. That, perhaps, refers more
specifically to the person's soul/spirit leaving the body and moving
elsewhere. It is only the body that has died, not the spirit.

[Mike L]

On Sun, 31 Mar 2013 07:16:34 +0200, Steve Hayes
<haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:

[...]
>
>I was once in correspondence with a genealogist who havitually used "became
>deceased".

"Mr Jennings became shot."

--
Mike.

[erilar]

In article
<07e8809d-57e2-4cf6...@g8g2000vbf.googlegroups.com>,

Arcadian Rises <Arcadi...@aol.com> wrote:

> On Mar 30, 10:37 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr>
> wrote:
> > Ever since I first met it I've thought "pass away" a ridiculous way of
> > saying "die", but I came across a particularly egregious example today.
> > In a web page about Hipatia of Alexandria it said "Hipatia was born in
> > 355 approximately, and past away in 415". So this question is directed
> > towards those who would say "pass away" at all: do you think it
> > adequately invokes being gang-raped by a bunch of monks, followed by
> > being flayed with oyster shells?
> >
> > If you've read The Loved One you'll remember that Evelyn Waugh
> > ridiculed this type of euphemism, describing, for example, suicide by
> > hanging as "passing away with a rope", etc.
> >
> > The French are a bit inclined to say things like "il nous a quitté" to
> > mean "he has died", but I don't find that as objectionable.
> >
> > --
> > athel
>

> Would you prefer the word "expired", which is also used for perishable
> merchandise?

Personally, I prefer just plain "died".

--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist

[James Hogg]

Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2013-03-30 15:09:35 +0000, Arcadian Rises said:
>

>> On Mar 30, 10:37 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr>
>> wrote:
>>> Ever since I first met it I've thought "pass away" a ridiculous way of
>>> saying "die", but I came across a particularly egregious example today.
>>> In a web page about Hipatia of Alexandria it said "Hipatia was born in
>>> 355 approximately, and past away in 415". So this question is directed
>>> towards those who would say "pass away" at all: do you think it
>>> adequately invokes being gang-raped by a bunch of monks, followed by
>>> being flayed with oyster shells?
>>>
>>> If you've read The Loved One you'll remember that Evelyn Waugh
>>> ridiculed this type of euphemism, describing, for example, suicide by
>>> hanging as "passing away with a rope", etc.
>>>

>>> The French are a bit inclined to say things like "il nous a quitt�" to

>>> mean "he has died", but I don't find that as objectionable.
>>>
>>> --
>>> athel
>>
>> Would you prefer the word "expired", which is also used for perishable
>> merchandise?
>

> What's wrong with "died"?

Or in this case, "was murdered".

--
James

[micky]

On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 08:18:43 -0700 (PDT), Arcadian Rises
<Arcadi...@aol.com> wrote:

>On Mar 30, 11:02�am, James Silverton <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net>
>wrote:
>> On 3/30/2013 10:47 AM, Jennifer Murphy wrote:> On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 15:37:40 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden

>> > <acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>
>> >> Ever since I first met it I've thought "pass away" a ridiculous way of
>> >> saying "die", but I came across a particularly egregious example today.
>> >> In a web page about Hipatia of Alexandria it said "Hipatia was born in
>> >> 355 approximately, and past away in 415".
>>

>> > Shouldn't that be "passed away"?
>>
>> > I don't have a problem with the euphemism in conversation with the
>> > bereaved. In an historical text, it seems un-academic and possibly a
>> > little dishonest.
>>
>> I would agree. I don't like euphemisms
>
>I don;t think it's a matter of liking euphemisms or being direct.
>
>Some, many people are afraid of death, either their own, or of loved
>ones, and try to hide their fear, or shock, behind other than the
>appropriate word. For similar reason, some people don't even pronounce
>the word "cancer".

If I die of cancer, I don't want people saying "He battled cancer."
They always say that but I doubt I will battle it.l. I'll probably go
to my doctors' appointments and get there on time and take the pills
they give me, but it will be the doctors doing most of the work.

If I ever get cancer, I'll inform my friends what not to say at my
funeral.

[Steve Hayes]

On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 15:37:40 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

>Ever since I first met it I've thought "pass away" a ridiculous way of
>saying "die", but I came across a particularly egregious example today.
>In a web page about Hipatia of Alexandria it said "Hipatia was born in

>355 approximately, and past away in 415". So this question is directed
>towards those who would say "pass away" at all: do you think it
>adequately invokes being gang-raped by a bunch of monks, followed by
>being flayed with oyster shells?

Equally ridiculous is "passed" indead of "passed away" -- I think we discussed
that not long ago.

But there are many others -- kick the bucket, croak, pop your clogs etc.




--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Steve Hayes]

On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 08:09:35 -0700 (PDT), Arcadian Rises
<Arcadi...@aol.com> wrote:

>
>Would you prefer the word "expired", which is also used for perishable
>merchandise?

"Expired" is a fancy way of saying "breathed his last", which suggests a
certain manner of death, usually in bed, surrounded by anxious relatives, at
the end of a long illness.

You don't expire at the end of a rope.

[Steve Hayes]

On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 09:59:00 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Mar 30, 8:37 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>> Ever since I first met it I've thought "pass away" a ridiculous way of
>> saying "die", but I came across a particularly egregious example today.
>> In a web page about Hipatia of Alexandria it said "Hipatia was born in
>> 355 approximately, and past away in 415". So this question is directed
>> towards those who would say "pass away" at all: do you think it
>> adequately invokes being gang-raped by a bunch of monks, followed by
>> being flayed with oyster shells?
>

>If it's this page
>
>http://hipatiapress.com/en/2011/08/29/hipatia-from-alexandria/
>

>it's clearly not by a native speaker of English and might be a
>translation from Spanish ("falleció"?).
>

>I definitely don't like "pass away" or other euphemisms for the deaths
>of historical figures or in any academic writing. As people have
>said, I can see using euphemisms with the bereaved.
>
>Despite the literal meaning of "pass away", I think it's just a
>euphemism--it doesn't connote a peaceful death.

I was once in correspondence with a genealogist who havitually used "became
deceased".

But there is a translation problem, and I'm not sure how one gets round it.

My daughter (who lives in Greece) once told of a Greek monk who said that one
should always speak of cemeteries and never of graveyards. That was her
translation of what he said in Greek, and it probably doesn't come across the
same in English, but he was making a theological point.

A related problem, once taken up by Peter Brooks, was a report of the death of
the Pope in a plane crash, and one report, translated from Greek, said that he
"reposed", which in English comes across quite differently from the Greek.

[the Omrud]

On 31/03/2013 02:04, micky wrote:

> If I die of cancer, I don't want people saying "He battled cancer."
> They always say that but I doubt I will battle it.l. I'll probably go
> to my doctors' appointments and get there on time and take the pills
> they give me, but it will be the doctors doing most of the work.
>
> If I ever get cancer, I'll inform my friends what not to say at my
> funeral.

All children who get cancer are "brave", according to the British papers.

--
David

[Steve Hayes]

On Sun, 31 Mar 2013 07:23:05 +0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>In message <45hfl8hrf3k3rf94f...@4ax.com>

> Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>> On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 09:59:00 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
>> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>>On Mar 30, 8:37�am, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>>> Ever since I first met it I've thought "pass away" a ridiculous way of
>>>> saying "die", but I came across a particularly egregious example today.
>>>> In a web page about Hipatia of Alexandria it said "Hipatia was born in
>>>> 355 approximately, and past away in 415". So this question is directed
>>>> towards those who would say "pass away" at all: do you think it
>>>> adequately invokes being gang-raped by a bunch of monks, followed by
>>>> being flayed with oyster shells?
>>>
>>>If it's this page
>>>
>>>http://hipatiapress.com/en/2011/08/29/hipatia-from-alexandria/
>>>
>>>it's clearly not by a native speaker of English and might be a

>>>translation from Spanish ("falleci�"?).

>>>
>>>I definitely don't like "pass away" or other euphemisms for the deaths
>>>of historical figures or in any academic writing. As people have
>>>said, I can see using euphemisms with the bereaved.
>>>
>>>Despite the literal meaning of "pass away", I think it's just a
>>>euphemism--it doesn't connote a peaceful death.
>
>> I was once in correspondence with a genealogist who havitually used "became
>> deceased".
>
>> But there is a translation problem, and I'm not sure how one gets round it.
>
>> My daughter (who lives in Greece) once told of a Greek monk who said that one
>> should always speak of cemeteries and never of graveyards. That was her
>> translation of what he said in Greek, and it probably doesn't come across the
>> same in English, but he was making a theological point.
>
>> A related problem, once taken up by Peter Brooks, was a report of the death of
>> the Pope in a plane crash, and one report, translated from Greek, said that he
>> "reposed", which in English comes across quite differently from the Greek.
>

>A Pope died in a Plane Crash?

Yes, on 9/11 as you would say in the USA.

But it was in 2004.

[Peter Moylan]

On 31/03/13 01:37, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> Ever since I first met it I've thought "pass away" a ridiculous way of
> saying "die", but I came across a particularly egregious example today.
> In a web page about Hipatia of Alexandria it said "Hipatia was born in
> 355 approximately, and past away in 415". So this question is directed
> towards those who would say "pass away" at all: do you think it
> adequately invokes being gang-raped by a bunch of monks, followed by
> being flayed with oyster shells?
>

> If you've read The Loved One you'll remember that Evelyn Waugh ridiculed
> this type of euphemism, describing, for example, suicide by hanging as
> "passing away with a rope", etc.
>

> The French are a bit inclined to say things like "il nous a quitté" to

> mean "he has died", but I don't find that as objectionable.
>

Euphemism and vagueness are justified when we need to avoid hurting
someone. When talking to a bereaved person, "pining for the fjords" is a
bit more gentle, and therefore kinder, that a blunt phrase like "checked
out".

When talking of a historical person, this justification no longer
exists. A scholar who employs euphemism is skating dangerously close to
lying.

Of course, someone who writes "past away" probably doesn't have enough
education to be called a scholar.

--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

[Peter Moylan]

On 31/03/13 16:40, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> writes:
>
>> On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 19:03:28 -0000, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>>
>>> In article <MPG.2bc0f2ba...@news.individual.net>,
>>> the_sta...@fastmail.fm says...
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 17:13:55 GMT, Peter Young wrote:
>>>>> King Solomon had 500 wives, and slept with his fathers.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> He was a necrophiliac?
>>>
>>> Perhaps that should have read
>>>
>>> "King Solomon had 500 wives, and slept with his father's."
>>
>> I'm not sure that's better -- it didn't work out too well for
>> Oedipus.
>
> Well his dad had seven wives other than Sol's mom.
>

Our joy would be complete if it could be shown that every wife had seven
sacks, and every sack had seven cats.

[Robert Bannister]

More to the point: has she ever been seen since?

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 31/03/13 1:06 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 08:09:35 -0700 (PDT), Arcadian Rises
> <Arcadi...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Would you prefer the word "expired", which is also used for perishable
>> merchandise?
>
> "Expired" is a fancy way of saying "breathed his last", which suggests a
> certain manner of death, usually in bed, surrounded by anxious relatives, at
> the end of a long illness.
>
> You don't expire at the end of a rope.

Well, you don't respire. Perhaps you might inspire somebody though.


--
Robert Bannister

[Steve Hayes]

Have you seen that one in the wild?

[Iain Archer]

Robert Bannister wrote on Mon, 1 Apr 2013 at 07:24:55 GMT

I despire of you all.
--
Iain Archer

[Iain Archer]

Mike L wrote on Sun, 31 Mar 2013 at 21:21:08 GMT

You mean he had shotness thrust upon him?

Actually, "This is shot" does turn up in BrE, meaning ruined, kaput. So
scope for a hilarious dialogue along the lnes of "But I see no blood".
"Why should there be? He's been poisoned."
--
Iain Archer

[R H Draney]

Robert Bannister filted:

One is inexplicably reminded of a line from "The Last Remake of Beau Geste", in
which the news of the old man's passing (in bed with a mistress) is that "he
overcame himself"...(this was a corruption of the proper joke, which is that he
came and went simultaneously)....r

[R H Draney]

Steve Hayes filted:

>
>On Sun, 31 Mar 2013 21:21:08 +0100, Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 31 Mar 2013 07:16:34 +0200, Steve Hayes
>><haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>
>>>I was once in correspondence with a genealogist who havitually used "became
>>>deceased".
>>
>>"Mr Jennings became shot."
>
>Have you seen that one in the wild?

I vaguely recall an episode of "Laverne and Shirley" in which either Lenny or
Squiggy (the two dimwit greaser neighbors) mentions an acquaintance who ran into
trouble with the Mob and "lost the use of his life"....r

[R H Draney]

Peter Moylan filted:

>
>Euphemism and vagueness are justified when we need to avoid hurting
>someone. When talking to a bereaved person, "pining for the fjords" is a
>bit more gentle, and therefore kinder, that a blunt phrase like "checked
>out".

How about "your mother's up on the roof"?...r

[Peter Moylan]

On 01/04/13 14:07, R H Draney wrote:
> Peter Moylan filted:
>>
>> Euphemism and vagueness are justified when we need to avoid hurting
>> someone. When talking to a bereaved person, "pining for the fjords" is a
>> bit more gentle, and therefore kinder, that a blunt phrase like "checked
>> out".
>
> How about "your mother's up on the roof"?...r

Excellent example.

[Peter Moylan]

On 01/04/13 14:07, R H Draney wrote:

> Peter Moylan filted:
>>
>> Euphemism and vagueness are justified when we need to avoid hurting
>> someone. When talking to a bereaved person, "pining for the fjords" is a
>> bit more gentle, and therefore kinder, that a blunt phrase like "checked
>> out".
>
> How about "your mother's up on the roof"?...r

Eating cake.

[R H Draney]

Peter Moylan filted:

>
>On 01/04/13 14:07, R H Draney wrote:
>> Peter Moylan filted:
>>>
>>> Euphemism and vagueness are justified when we need to avoid hurting
>>> someone. When talking to a bereaved person, "pining for the fjords" is a
>>> bit more gentle, and therefore kinder, that a blunt phrase like "checked
>>> out".
>>
>> How about "your mother's up on the roof"?...r
>
>Excellent example.

A few years ago, I made an animal lover very unhappy with me when I mentioned
that I had put one of the feral cats on my patio to sleep...when I noticed her
reaction, I had to find a quick way of recovering the proper meaning of the word
"literally"....

The cat had been lounging on one of my chairs when I mounted my exercise
bike...seven others took off immediately, in every direction including straight
up, as soon as I started pedaling, but not Smokey...he stuck around and watched
me to see what was going to happen...after ten minutes of repetitive motion, he
got so bored he dozed back off....r

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2013-03-31 07:53:44 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

> On 31/03/13 01:37, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

[ … ]

> Of course, someone who writes "past away" probably doesn't have enough
> education to be called a scholar.

I've been surprised at how many people have commented on the "past
away". In the original post I thought it was sufficiently obvious that
it was a quotation for it not to need a "[sic]", but apparently I was
mistaken.


--
athel

[Steve Hayes]

On Mon, 1 Apr 2013 08:28:10 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr>
wrote:

I thought most of the comments were directed at the original authors, rather
than you, and were intended to reinforce your comments. Of course it could
have been a typo, rather than an ignorant misusage, on the part of the
original author.

[J. J. Lodder]

Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 31/03/13 16:40, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> > Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> writes:
> >
> >> On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 19:03:28 -0000, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> >>>
> >>> In article <MPG.2bc0f2ba...@news.individual.net>,
> >>> the_sta...@fastmail.fm says...
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 17:13:55 GMT, Peter Young wrote:
> >>>>> King Solomon had 500 wives, and slept with his fathers.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> He was a necrophiliac?
> >>>
> >>> Perhaps that should have read
> >>>
> >>> "King Solomon had 500 wives, and slept with his father's."
> >>
> >> I'm not sure that's better -- it didn't work out too well for
> >> Oedipus.
> >
> > Well his dad had seven wives other than Sol's mom.
> >
> Our joy would be complete if it could be shown that every wife had seven
> sacks, and every sack had seven cats.

The joy isn't complete without kittens,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 31/03/13 01:37, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> > Ever since I first met it I've thought "pass away" a ridiculous way of
> > saying "die", but I came across a particularly egregious example today.
> > In a web page about Hipatia of Alexandria it said "Hipatia was born in
> > 355 approximately, and past away in 415". So this question is directed
> > towards those who would say "pass away" at all: do you think it
> > adequately invokes being gang-raped by a bunch of monks, followed by
> > being flayed with oyster shells?
> >
> > If you've read The Loved One you'll remember that Evelyn Waugh ridiculed
> > this type of euphemism, describing, for example, suicide by hanging as
> > "passing away with a rope", etc.
> >

> > The French are a bit inclined to say things like "il nous a quitt�" to

> > mean "he has died", but I don't find that as objectionable.
> >
> Euphemism and vagueness are justified when we need to avoid hurting
> someone. When talking to a bereaved person, "pining for the fjords" is a
> bit more gentle, and therefore kinder, that a blunt phrase like "checked
> out".
>
> When talking of a historical person, this justification no longer
> exists. A scholar who employs euphemism is skating dangerously close to
> lying.
>
> Of course, someone who writes "past away" probably doesn't have enough
> education to be called a scholar.

Perhaps the problem is that religious fanatism,
and corresponding murderousness is back in force?

So walk softly?

Jan

[Cheryl]

I really don't see how you get from the use of 'passed away' to that idea!

--
Cheryl

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 1 Apr 2013 06:47:17 +0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>In message <YdwVy1W2...@virginmedia.com>

> Iain Archer <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> Mike L wrote on Sun, 31 Mar 2013 at 21:21:08 GMT
>>>On Sun, 31 Mar 2013 07:16:34 +0200, Steve Hayes
>>><haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>[...]
>>>>
>>>>I was once in correspondence with a genealogist who havitually used "became
>>>>deceased".
>>>
>>>"Mr Jennings became shot."
>>>
>> You mean he had shotness thrust upon him?
>
>> Actually, "This is shot" does turn up in BrE, meaning ruined, kaput.
>

>And in AmE also. "This engine is shot" is perfectly understandable. It
>would not be used of a person.

So, then, an older man couldn't say "My knees are shot"?

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL

[Peter Brooks]

On Mar 31, 3:04 am, micky <NONONOmis...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>
> If I die of cancer, I don't want people saying "He battled cancer."
> They always say that but I doubt I will battle it.l.  I'll probably go
> to my doctors' appointments and get there on time and take the pills
> they give me, but it will be the doctors doing most of the work.
>

It's an odd thing, but people seem to think that there's something
good about resisting death. Apparently, from what I've read of studies
carried out, it makes no difference to recovery rate whether somebody
is relaxed and resigned or aggressively upset.

[Peter Brooks]

On Mar 31, 7:16 am, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
>
> A related problem, once taken up by Peter Brooks, was a report of the death of
> the Pope in a plane crash, and one report, translated from Greek, said that he
> "reposed", which in English comes across quite differently from the Greek.
>

Yes, I remember, it sounded very odd, as if dying in an aeroplane
crash was a tranquil experience.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Mon, 1 Apr 2013 06:47:17 +0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>In message <YdwVy1W2...@virginmedia.com>
> Iain Archer <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

>> Mike L wrote on Sun, 31 Mar 2013 at 21:21:08 GMT
>>>On Sun, 31 Mar 2013 07:16:34 +0200, Steve Hayes
>>><haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>[...]
>>>>
>>>>I was once in correspondence with a genealogist who havitually used "became
>>>>deceased".
>>>
>>>"Mr Jennings became shot."
>>>
>> You mean he had shotness thrust upon him?
>
>> Actually, "This is shot" does turn up in BrE, meaning ruined, kaput.
>

>And in AmE also. "This engine is shot" is perfectly understandable. It
>would not be used of a person.

It may not be used of a complete person but it is used of part of a
person.

A blog post:
http://www.wellsphere.com/asthma-article/memorial-day-weekend-at-work-so-far-so-good/1123781

Had a patient who will be getting a Hospice consult on Tuesday
because his heart is shot. Completely shot. Piling on fluid, yada
yada yada.

Emergency Care Quizlet 12th ch6
http://quizlet.com/20188671/print/

8.Your patient is an 86-year-old male with congestive heart failure.
He called for help tonight because he cannot breathe and feels like
he is "drowning in his own lungs." The patient has had several heart
attacks in the past and he tells you his "heart is shot." The
patient's cardiac output is likely diminished because:

<multiple choices>

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2506&dat=19780924&id=cZFJAAAAIBAJ&sjid=OAwNAAAAIBAJ&pg=1479,5184932

After 35 years of working with asbestos, his lungs are shot and he
has to breath pure oxygen 16 hours a day.


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Cheryl]

It seems quite normal to me. Resisting any kind of difficulty or
challenge takes courage and effort. People do sometimes differ on
whether or not such courage is worth it, or really is courage - for
example, when they disagree with the philosophy underpinning the
decision to fight. We've all heard people dismissing the courage of
those who battle against political institutions or social barriers which
the critics support, and people claiming that those with certain
disabilities are "better off dead" however fervently the disabled person
wishes to be alive.

But the tendency to consider a battle against odds as brave and worthy
of admiration does remain.

From the dying person's perspective - sometimes people have other
reasons to want to hang on as long as they can, battling their disease,
that defeating death, which they know is impossible. I had a friend who
died young from breast cancer, and her primary motivation for the battle
was to be able to spend as long as possible with her husband and, most
of all, her infant daughter.

She got almost three years, most of the time reasonably free of pain.
Maybe the end would have been postponed just as long had she not fought,
I don't know, but the fight was important to her.

--
Cheryl

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> writes:

> On 31/03/2013 02:04, micky wrote:
>
>> If I die of cancer, I don't want people saying "He battled cancer."
>> They always say that but I doubt I will battle it.l. I'll probably
>> go to my doctors' appointments and get there on time and take the
>> pills they give me, but it will be the doctors doing most of the
>> work.
>>

>> If I ever get cancer, I'll inform my friends what not to say at my
>> funeral.
>
> All children who get cancer are "brave", according to the British
> papers.

If keeping going despite being faced with something that is likely to
kill you in a very unpleasant way isn't "bravery", what is?

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |First Law of Anthropology:
SF Bay Area (1982-) | If they're doing something you
Chicago (1964-1982) | don't understand, it's either an
| isolated lunatic, a religious
evan.kir...@gmail.com | ritual, or art.

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[the Omrud]

On 01/04/2013 17:55, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On 31/03/2013 02:04, micky wrote:
>>
>>> If I die of cancer, I don't want people saying "He battled cancer."
>>> They always say that but I doubt I will battle it.l. I'll probably
>>> go to my doctors' appointments and get there on time and take the
>>> pills they give me, but it will be the doctors doing most of the
>>> work.
>>>
>>> If I ever get cancer, I'll inform my friends what not to say at my
>>> funeral.
>>
>> All children who get cancer are "brave", according to the British
>> papers.
>
> If keeping going despite being faced with something that is likely to
> kill you in a very unpleasant way isn't "bravery", what is?

I'm not sure what "keeping going" means. Nearly everybody with cancer
"keeps going", on the grounds that there isn't much in the way of an
alternative.

I'm in danger of sounding callous, but the only qualification for being
labelled "brave" by UK papers is for a child to *have* cancer.

--
David

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> writes:

> On 01/04/2013 17:55, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>> the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 31/03/2013 02:04, micky wrote:
>>>
>>>> If I die of cancer, I don't want people saying "He battled cancer."
>>>> They always say that but I doubt I will battle it.l. I'll probably
>>>> go to my doctors' appointments and get there on time and take the
>>>> pills they give me, but it will be the doctors doing most of the
>>>> work.
>>>>
>>>> If I ever get cancer, I'll inform my friends what not to say at my
>>>> funeral.
>>>
>>> All children who get cancer are "brave", according to the British
>>> papers.
>>
>> If keeping going despite being faced with something that is likely to
>> kill you in a very unpleasant way isn't "bravery", what is?
>
> I'm not sure what "keeping going" means. Nearly everybody with cancer
> "keeps going", on the grounds that there isn't much in the way of an
> alternative.

Sure there is. You can collapse into a sobbing, terrified heap and
refuse to do anything, including things that might give you slight
hope of avoiding painful death. Happens quite often when people are
put in situations in which they expect to die.

> I'm in danger of sounding callous, but the only qualification for
> being labelled "brave" by UK papers is for a child to *have* cancer.

--

Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |"Algebra? But that's far too
SF Bay Area (1982-) |difficult for seven-year-olds!"
Chicago (1964-1982) |
|"Yes, but I didn't tell them that
evan.kir...@gmail.com |and so far they haven't found out,"
|said Susan.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Cheryl]

Well, there's also often a difference between what's reported in the
media and what's real. Maybe the reporters find, or are trying to
elicit, some consolation with the thought that the children are
praiseworthy in some way.

If they tried to actually find out what was praiseworthy about each
individual dying child, they'd be even more intrusive into a private
grief than they are normally, and also it would be a lot more work. So
they take short-cuts.

So dogs are always vicious and their attacks always unprovoked. It's a
tragedy if someone dies in a car accident (unless they were drinking,
whether or not that was part of the reason for the accident) and people
who die in other kinds of accidents, mountain climbing, for example, get
calls for their next of kin to pay for the rescue attempts rather than
offers of condolences.

And people who die of particulary feared diseases do so bravely,
particularly if they're seen as innocent - young children, for example,
or non-smokers.

Then there's no need to respond to each tragedy as that of an
individual, affecting other individuals.

--
Cheryl

[the Omrud]

On 01/04/2013 18:42, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On 01/04/2013 17:55, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>> the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 31/03/2013 02:04, micky wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> If I die of cancer, I don't want people saying "He battled cancer."
>>>>> They always say that but I doubt I will battle it.l. I'll probably
>>>>> go to my doctors' appointments and get there on time and take the
>>>>> pills they give me, but it will be the doctors doing most of the
>>>>> work.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I ever get cancer, I'll inform my friends what not to say at my
>>>>> funeral.
>>>>
>>>> All children who get cancer are "brave", according to the British
>>>> papers.
>>>
>>> If keeping going despite being faced with something that is likely to
>>> kill you in a very unpleasant way isn't "bravery", what is?
>>
>> I'm not sure what "keeping going" means. Nearly everybody with cancer
>> "keeps going", on the grounds that there isn't much in the way of an
>> alternative.
>
> Sure there is. You can collapse into a sobbing, terrified heap and
> refuse to do anything, including things that might give you slight
> hope of avoiding painful death. Happens quite often when people are
> put in situations in which they expect to die.

Anything other than suicide is "keeping going". And who knows if that
isn't how these children react? I don't seem to be getting my point
across. No matter how they behave, the very fact of having cancer gets
them labelled as "brave" by the UK press.

--
David

[Leslie Danks]

Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:

> the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On 01/04/2013 17:55, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>> the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 31/03/2013 02:04, micky wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> If I die of cancer, I don't want people saying "He battled cancer."
>>>>> They always say that but I doubt I will battle it.l. I'll probably
>>>>> go to my doctors' appointments and get there on time and take the
>>>>> pills they give me, but it will be the doctors doing most of the
>>>>> work.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I ever get cancer, I'll inform my friends what not to say at my
>>>>> funeral.
>>>>
>>>> All children who get cancer are "brave", according to the British
>>>> papers.
>>>
>>> If keeping going despite being faced with something that is likely to
>>> kill you in a very unpleasant way isn't "bravery", what is?
>>
>> I'm not sure what "keeping going" means. Nearly everybody with cancer
>> "keeps going", on the grounds that there isn't much in the way of an
>> alternative.
>
> Sure there is. You can collapse into a sobbing, terrified heap and
> refuse to do anything, including things that might give you slight
> hope of avoiding painful death. Happens quite often when people are
> put in situations in which they expect to die.

How do you know that? Do you moonlight as an oncologist? I can't imagine
many doctors allowing an audience to be present when they give a patient
that kind of news. Refusing chemotherapy on the grounds that it produces
symptoms worse than the disease is also a form of "keeping going". The only
action which is not is "doing away with oneself", and I suspect only a
minority of people are capable of taking that decision.

>> I'm in danger of sounding callous, but the only qualification for
>> being labelled "brave" by UK papers is for a child to *have* cancer.
>
--

Les
"... be skeptical of government guidelines. The Indians learned not to trust
our government and neither should you." (Fallon & Enig)

[Arcadian Rises]

On Apr 1, 2:17 pm, the Omrud <usenet.om...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 01/04/2013 18:42, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > the Omrud <usenet.om...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >> On 01/04/2013 17:55, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:

> David- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

It's like "thank you for your patience" addressed to the disgruntled
rtiders of a delayed subway.

[Robin Bignall]

On Mon, 01 Apr 2013 20:20:55 +0200, Leslie Danks <leslie...@aon.at>
wrote:

Only a minority of people are ill or disabled enough to reach that
decision point, but there are quite a few of them around. The problem
in my country is that there is no quick, easy, mess-less, painless and
peaceful way to commit suicide. Quite a few people are in a condition
such that if a veterinarian kept a dog in that condition he'd be jailed
and struck off. Very few people can afford, or are fit enough, to
travel to Switzerland and Dignitas, knowing that anyone who helps them
risks 14 years in prison*. So, they have to hang on whether they like
it or not, and many of them die horrible deaths.

* So far nobody has, but the law is there.
--
Robin Bignall
Herts, England (BrE)

[John Varela]

On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 18:55:45 UTC, James Hogg <Jas....@gOUTmail.com>
wrote:

> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> > On 2013-03-30 15:09:35 +0000, Arcadian Rises said:
> >
> >> On Mar 30, 10:37 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr>

> >> wrote:
> >>> Ever since I first met it I've thought "pass away" a ridiculous way of
> >>> saying "die", but I came across a particularly egregious example today.
> >>> In a web page about Hipatia of Alexandria it said "Hipatia was born in
> >>> 355 approximately, and past away in 415". So this question is directed
> >>> towards those who would say "pass away" at all: do you think it
> >>> adequately invokes being gang-raped by a bunch of monks, followed by
> >>> being flayed with oyster shells?
> >>>
> >>> If you've read The Loved One you'll remember that Evelyn Waugh
> >>> ridiculed this type of euphemism, describing, for example, suicide by
> >>> hanging as "passing away with a rope", etc.
> >>>
> >>> The French are a bit inclined to say things like "il nous a quitt�" to
> >>> mean "he has died", but I don't find that as objectionable.
> >>>

> >>> --
> >>> athel

> >>
> >> Would you prefer the word "expired", which is also used for perishable
> >> merchandise?
> >

> > What's wrong with "died"?
>
> Or in this case, "was murdered".

You're touching on one of my pet peeves.

When someone is killed by terrorists, the news organs always report
it as "the hostages were executed" when the correct term is
"murdered". Not only that, they use the passive when the active is
more suited to the case. "The bastards murdered the innocent
victims" is more like it.

--
John Varela

[Paul Wolff]

In message <artvbf...@mid.individual.net>, Cheryl <cper...@mun.ca>
writes

Not euphemism as such, but a remarkable way to tell a story with the
nice bits to the fore, in last week's Oxfordshire Guardian (published
every Thursday, which is relevant, as the death can't have been
mentioned in the previous issue). I've abbreviated it, but each
paragraph was only one sentence.

Headline: Family pay tribute to 'larger than life' Melvin.

Para 1. The family of a Witney man, who was tragically found dead last
Thursday, have described him as a "larger than life" character in a
tribute.

Para 2. Melvin...(pictured)...was found dead in Carterton last Thursday.

Para 3. The statement read: "Melvin...larger than life
character...always be missed."

Para 4. Three people have been charged with his murder...struck on the
head with a blunt object.

It seems to me, and call me stony-hearted, that the fact of a murder is
really just a teeny bit more significant than that a local resident who
died recently was a larger-than-life character.

This inversion does make me wonder just what sort of
larger-than-lifeness the late Melvin exhibited. Whether that was the
ever-so-subtle intention of the newspaper story, I can't say.
--
Paul

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Having known people (including children) with severe chronic (and,
occasionally, life-threatening) illnesses, I suspect that after the
initial panic subsides, "brave" probably applies in most cases. Or
does bravery, to you, require a completely voluntary decision to
forego a position of personal safety and put yourself into a life-
threatening situation?

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |I need to get a new colander. My
SF Bay Area (1982-) |old one has holes in it.
Chicago (1964-1982)

evan.kir...@gmail.com

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

No, but anybody who underwent treatment can be safely assumed to have
gotten past that. Somebody who panics at being trapped in a burning
building but then pulls himself together and looks for a way out it
still "brave" in my book.

> Refusing chemotherapy on the grounds that it produces symptoms worse
> than the disease is also a form of "keeping going".

Of course. There was an "and" in my statement. Rationally deciding
to refuse treatment doesn't detract from bravery in my mind. Refusing
to cooperate because you are overwhelmed with fear does.

> The only action which is not is "doing away with oneself", and I
> suspect only a minority of people are capable of taking that
> decision.
>
>>> I'm in danger of sounding callous, but the only qualification for
>>> being labelled "brave" by UK papers is for a child to *have* cancer.

--

Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |The Elizabethans had so many words
SF Bay Area (1982-) |for the female genitals that it is
Chicago (1964-1982) |quite hard to speak a sentence of
|modern English without inadvertently
evan.kir...@gmail.com |mentioning at least three of them.
| Terry Pratchett
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[James Silverton]

I hope that if I am diagnosed with cancer that will eventuality prove
fatal, I will have the "bravery" to shoot myself but I am not totally
confident of that.

--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not" in Reply To.

[Lanarcam]

Le 01/04/2013 21:34, James Silverton a �crit :

I think that nobody can tell in advance nor can anyone understand
it without having been through that. AFAIK.

[Paul Wolff]

In message <5159e1c6$0$1980$426a...@news.free.fr>, Lanarcam
<lana...@yahoo.fr> writes

>Le 01/04/2013 21:34, James Silverton a �crit :
>>

>> I hope that if I am diagnosed with cancer that will eventuality prove
>> fatal, I will have the "bravery" to shoot myself but I am not totally
>> confident of that.
>>
>I think that nobody can tell in advance nor can anyone understand
>it without having been through that. AFAIK.

Those words "that will eventually prove fatal" are the excuse for
everything. You can be sure that *something* will eventually prove
fatal, so that's not the problem, unless one is already looking for a
reason to exit this life here and now. Cancer is just one of a thousand
timebombs ticking away for all of us, and we won't know until she
finally blows which one had the shortest fuse.

When people I've known have killed themselves, I have never thought them
brave. If anything, rather the opposite, I'm afraid. My boundless
charity doesn't easily stretch in that particular direction.
--
Paul

[the Omrud]

Not life-threatening - taking a difficult job or facing up to a fear of
heights (e.g.) might require bravery. Many people with serious
illnesses face them bravely. I dislike the press labelling without
apparent thought or considering the individual. A bit like the UK
government at the moment who can't use the word "families" without
prefixing it with "hard-working". It's lazy.

--
David

[Mike L]

On 31 Mar 2013 22:30:08 -0700, R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net>
wrote:

>Peter Moylan filted:
>>
>>On 01/04/13 14:07, R H Draney wrote:
>>> Peter Moylan filted:

>>>>
>>>> Euphemism and vagueness are justified when we need to avoid hurting
>>>> someone. When talking to a bereaved person, "pining for the fjords" is a
>>>> bit more gentle, and therefore kinder, that a blunt phrase like "checked
>>>> out".
>>>

>>> How about "your mother's up on the roof"?...r
>>
>>Excellent example.
>
>A few years ago, I made an animal lover very unhappy with me when I mentioned
>that I had put one of the feral cats on my patio to sleep...when I noticed her
>reaction, I had to find a quick way of recovering the proper meaning of the word
>"literally"....
>
>The cat had been lounging on one of my chairs when I mounted my exercise
>bike...seven others took off immediately, in every direction including straight
>up, as soon as I started pedaling, but not Smokey...he stuck around and watched
>me to see what was going to happen...after ten minutes of repetitive motion, he
>got so bored he dozed back off....r

Some people speak of "putting down" the baby. They simply mean getting
it to sleep, but I'll never be happy with the usage.

--
Mike.

[Mike L]

On Mon, 01 Apr 2013 01:40:03 +0200, Steve Hayes
<haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:

>On Sun, 31 Mar 2013 21:21:08 +0100, Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 31 Mar 2013 07:16:34 +0200, Steve Hayes
>><haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>
>>[...]
>>>
>>>I was once in correspondence with a genealogist who havitually used "became
>>>deceased".
>>
>>"Mr Jennings became shot."
>

>Have you seen that one in the wild?

I don't know if it's wild enopugh for you, but I certainly read it in
_Gentlemen Prefer Blondes_.

--
Mike.

[Mike L]

On Mon, 01 Apr 2013 19:17:01 +0100, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Quite so. Even toddlers in that state are labelled "brave". Then
there's the late John Diamond (a BBC journalist) who had the bravery
and common sense to write a book about his illness entitled _Cowards
Get Cancer Too_. The idea that one can fight cancer is potentially
damaging in the sense that it may carry the implication that it's your
own fault if you die of it: I'm with Micky.

--
Mike.

[R H Draney]

Leslie Danks filted:

>
>Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>
>> the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 01/04/2013 17:55, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If keeping going despite being faced with something that is likely to
>>>> kill you in a very unpleasant way isn't "bravery", what is?
>>>
>>> I'm not sure what "keeping going" means. Nearly everybody with cancer
>>> "keeps going", on the grounds that there isn't much in the way of an
>>> alternative.
>>
>> Sure there is. You can collapse into a sobbing, terrified heap and
>> refuse to do anything, including things that might give you slight
>> hope of avoiding painful death. Happens quite often when people are
>> put in situations in which they expect to die.
>
>How do you know that? Do you moonlight as an oncologist? I can't imagine
>many doctors allowing an audience to be present when they give a patient
>that kind of news. Refusing chemotherapy on the grounds that it produces
>symptoms worse than the disease is also a form of "keeping going". The only
>action which is not is "doing away with oneself", and I suspect only a
>minority of people are capable of taking that decision.

All right, then consider another alternative: the moment you get the diagnosis,
you decide that if you're certain to die, you want to take as many others with
you as possible...so you go home, pack up all your high-powered rifles, and head
off to the local shopping mall to shoot up the crowd....

Brave, or the very opposite?...r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Mike L]

On 1 Apr 2013 18:59:49 GMT, "John Varela" <newl...@verizon.net>
wrote:

Insert "in cold blood".

--
Mike.

[Leslie Danks]

Barmy.