Why is Nicholas written with an h in English?
Zwartendÿk
indicating rough breathing which would give an extra h in the Latin
alphabet.
It seems that it was written Nicholas already in Anglo-Norman, which
surprised me.
False influence from the tendency of Greek loan-words in Latin often
being written with ch but pronounced /k/, even if that ch ousually
represents Greek X, e.g. monarch?
I look forward to some hopefully enlightening replies.
Arcadian Rises
> As far as I can see the original Greek Íéêüëáïò has no diacritic
> indicating rough breathing which would give an extra h in the Latin
> alphabet.
> It seems that it was written Nicholas already in Anglo-Norman, which
> surprised me.
>
> False influence from the tendency of Greek loan-words in Latin often
> being written with ch but pronounced /k/, even if that ch ousually
> represents Greek X, e.g. monarch?
>
> I look forward to some hopefully enlightening replies.
An attempt to answer your titled question: for the same reason
"Matthew" is written with two "t"s, when one would suffice.
Zwartendÿk
> An attempt to answer your titled question: for the same reason
> "Matthew" is written with two "t"s, when one would suffice.
But that is because the spelling is taken directly from Greek. The
same with Thomas.
Nicholas presents the reverse issue: English adds a letter that does
not make sense pronunciation-wise - a letter which is NOT found in the
Greek original.
Garrett Wollman
Another instance of the etymological fallacy.
English is not Greek.
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993
Joachim Pense
Am 12.02.2011 08:47, schrieb Garrett Wollman:
> In article<5c4b183b-1614-4f34...@n10g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>,
> Zwartend�k<fredrik...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 12 Feb, 07:57, Arcadian Rises<Arcadianri...@aol.com> wrote:
>>> An attempt to answer your titled question: for the same reason
>>> "Matthew" is written with two "t"s, when one would suffice.
>>
>> But that is because the spelling is taken directly from Greek. The
>> same with Thomas.
>>
>> Nicholas presents the reverse issue: English adds a letter that does
>> not make sense pronunciation-wise - a letter which is NOT found in the
>> Greek original.
>
> Another instance of the etymological fallacy.
>
> English is not Greek.
>
What fallacy? It is an interesting question what the etymological reason
of the h is. If anyone said, the h should not be written in English
because no equivalent is there in the Greek, _that_ would be a fallacy.
Joachim
HVS
> As far as I can see the original Greek Νικόλαος has no diacritic
> indicating rough breathing which would give an extra h in the Latin
> alphabet.
> It seems that it was written Nicholas already in Anglo-Norman, which
> surprised me.
Presumably it's from Norman French, then, and English simply imported it with
the additional letter; assuming that's the case, the question isn't why
English added the 'h', it's why the Normans did.
> False influence from the tendency of Greek loan-words in Latin often
> being written with ch but pronounced /k/, even if that ch ousually
> represents Greek X, e.g. monarch?
Sounds reasonable. Are there other cases of it happening in Norman?
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
Athel Cornish-Bowden
That's the fallacy he had in mind, I assume. Even if it wasn't explicit
in the question it was certainly implicit.
>
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> On 12 Feb 2011, Zwartend�k wrote
>
>> As far as I can see the original Greek Νικόλαος has no diacritic
>> indicating rough breathing which would give an extra h in the Latin
>> alphabet.
>> It seems that it was written Nicholas already in Anglo-Norman, which
>> surprised me.
>
> Presumably it's from Norman French, then, and English simply imported it with
> the additional letter; assuming that's the case, the question isn't why
> English added the 'h', it's why the Normans did.
It's still written with an h by at least (though probably a minority)
of French people with otherwise obviously French names. That could of
course be a reimportation from English, however, like William, which
seems to be more common in modern France than Guillaume.
--
athel
Steve Hayes
I believe it comes from the Greek niko laos, meaning "victory of the people".
It's a bit ironic that Tsar Nikolai was overthrown by the people.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
James Hogg
I don't know but it wouldn't surprise me if there are "misspellings" of
other words of Greek origin. (I put quotes round "misspellings" to avoid
being accused of the etymological fallacy.) The "intrusive" h in Anthony
is much later, late 16th century.
--
James
J. J. Lodder
Fortunately he lost that h again when becoming Santa Claus,
Jan
Dr Nick
It's not absolutely always done so in English. There are a fair
smattering of "Saint Nicolas Church"es around.
I'm avoiding any attempt at putting a possessive.
I find it almost impossible to type Nicolas, for reasons that ought to
be obvious.
--
Online waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu
Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk
Nick Spalding
on Sat, 12 Feb 2011 12:53:10 +0000:
> Zwartendÿk <fredrik...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > As far as I can see the original Greek ???????? has no diacritic
> > indicating rough breathing which would give an extra h in the Latin
> > alphabet.
> > It seems that it was written Nicholas already in Anglo-Norman, which
> > surprised me.
> >
> > False influence from the tendency of Greek loan-words in Latin often
> > being written with ch but pronounced /k/, even if that ch ousually
> > represents Greek X, e.g. monarch?
> >
> > I look forward to some hopefully enlightening replies.
>
> It's not absolutely always done so in English. There are a fair
> smattering of "Saint Nicolas Church"es around.
>
> I'm avoiding any attempt at putting a possessive.
>
> I find it almost impossible to type Nicolas, for reasons that ought to
> be obvious.
<giggle>
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
Joachim Pense
>>
>> What fallacy? It is an interesting question what the etymological
>> reason of the h is. If anyone said, the h should not be written in
>> English because no equivalent is there in the Greek, _that_ would be a
>> fallacy.
>
> That's the fallacy he had in mind, I assume. Even if it wasn't explicit
> in the question it was certainly implicit.
>>
>
Maybe because the name of this newsgroup perhaps suggests it is mainly
about discussing prescriptive advice in English, and not pure questions
of language interest (which should be put to sci.lang).
Joachim
R H Draney
>> be obvious.
>
><giggle>
From "Top Secret", Val Kilmer's first movie....
Nick Rivers: "Hillary. That's an unusual name."
Hillary Flammond: "It's a German name. It means 'she whose bosoms defy
gravity'."
Nick Rivers: "I'm pleased to meet you. My name's Nick."
Hillary Flammond: "Nick? What does that mean?"
Nick Rivers: "Oh, nothing. My dad thought of it while he was shaving."
....r
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
Jerry Friedman
> As far as I can see the original Greek Íéêüëáïò has no diacritic
> indicating rough breathing which would give an extra h in the Latin
> alphabet.
> It seems that it was written Nicholas already in Anglo-Norman, which
> surprised me.
The Online Etymology Dictionary says, 'masc. proper name, from Gk.
Nikholaos, lit. "victory-people," from nike "victory" + laos
"people."'
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=Nicholas&searchmode=none
/The Origins of English Words: A Discursive Dictionary of Indo-
European Roots/, by Joseph Twadell Shipley, also uses the spelling
with an "h".
http://books.google.com/books?id=m1UKpE4YEkEC&pg=PA86&dq=Nikholaos
Neither of them gives a Greek source. I didn't see any other relevant
hits on "Nikholaos", but those with /La Grande Encyclopédie/ might
want to consult volume 9 (which is on GB but with no preview). The on-
line Liddell and Scott doesn't appear to have proper names.
--
Jerry Friedman
Don Phillipson
news:2fa7d438-9301-415c...@f2g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
> As far as I can see the original Greek Νικόλαος has no diacritic
> indicating rough breathing which would give an extra h in the Latin
> alphabet. . . . False influence from the tendency of Greek loan-words in
> Latin often
> being written with ch but pronounced /k/, even if that ch ousually
> represents Greek X, e.g. monarch?
Am currentlly reading Ad Infinitum by Nicholas Ostler (2007) "a biography
of Latin and the World it Created" which has extremely relevant points
about translation and transliteration (mainly Greek/Arabic/Hebrew/
Latin) in chap. 14.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
James Hogg
> On Feb 11, 10:27 pm, Zwartend�k <fredrik.bjo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> As far as I can see the original Greek �������� has no diacritic
>> indicating rough breathing which would give an extra h in the Latin
>> alphabet.
>> It seems that it was written Nicholas already in Anglo-Norman, which
>> surprised me.
> ...
>
> The Online Etymology Dictionary says, 'masc. proper name, from Gk.
> Nikholaos, lit. "victory-people," from nike "victory" + laos
> "people."'
>
> http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=Nicholas&searchmode=none
>
> /The Origins of English Words: A Discursive Dictionary of Indo-
> European Roots/, by Joseph Twadell Shipley, also uses the spelling
> with an "h".
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=m1UKpE4YEkEC&pg=PA86&dq=Nikholaos
That is Twaddle, Mr Shipley. The "kh" is totally wrong, as is the double
"k" he puts in "nikke" (victory).
> Neither of them gives a Greek source. I didn't see any other relevant
> hits on "Nikholaos", but those with /La Grande Encyclop�die/ might
> want to consult volume 9 (which is on GB but with no preview). The on-
> line Liddell and Scott doesn't appear to have proper names.
Liddell and Scott have the appellative "nikolaos", which is "a kind of
date named after Nicolaus of Damascus".
--
James
John Varela
<sn...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
> pure questions
> of language interest (which should be put to sci.lang)
No! Not that!
--
John Varela
Mike Lyle
wrote:
The original form of the name used in English was "Nicol": it was
established before the Norman conquest, usually for monks. Withycombe
says the intrusive "h" is found as early as 12C, and goes along with
the idea that it probably appeared in the confusion arising from
Latinizing of Greek words with the aspirated single letters -- theta,
rho, phi, and chi.
I see that St Nicholas of Myra isn't only the patron of children and
pawnbrokers, but also of sailors and wolves. Why do wolves need a
patron saint? Somebody recently disabused me of a lovely belief that
he'd also distinguished himself by smacking Arius in the mouth at the
Council of Nicaea.
--
Mike.
Skitt
> On Sat, 12 Feb 2011 19:07:12 +0100, James Hogg<Jas....@gOUTmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> On Feb 11, 10:27 pm, Zwartend�k<fredrik.bjo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> indicating rough breathing which would give an extra h in the Latin
>>>> alphabet.
>>>> It seems that it was written Nicholas already in Anglo-Norman, which
>>>> surprised me.
>>> ...
>>>
>>> The Online Etymology Dictionary says, 'masc. proper name, from Gk.
>>> Nikholaos, lit. "victory-people," from nike "victory" + laos
>>> "people."'
>>>
>>> http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=Nicholas&searchmode=none
>>>
>>> /The Origins of English Words: A Discursive Dictionary of Indo-
>>> European Roots/, by Joseph Twadell Shipley, also uses the spelling
>>> with an "h".
>>>
>>> http://books.google.com/books?id=m1UKpE4YEkEC&pg=PA86&dq=Nikholaos
>>
>> That is Twaddle, Mr Shipley. The "kh" is totally wrong, as is the double
>> "k" he puts in "nikke" (victory).
>>
>>> Neither of them gives a Greek source. I didn't see any other relevant
>>> want to consult volume 9 (which is on GB but with no preview). The on-
>>> line Liddell and Scott doesn't appear to have proper names.
>>
>> Liddell and Scott have the appellative "nikolaos", which is "a kind of
>> date named after Nicolaus of Damascus".
>
> The original form of the name used in English was "Nicol": it was
> established before the Norman conquest, usually for monks. Withycombe
> says the intrusive "h" is found as early as 12C, and goes along with
> the idea that it probably appeared in the confusion arising from
> Latinizing of Greek words with the aspirated single letters -- theta,
> rho, phi, and chi.
>
> I see that St Nicholas of Myra isn't only the patron of children and
> pawnbrokers, but also of sailors and wolves. Why do wolves need a
> patron saint? Somebody recently disabused me of a lovely belief that
> he'd also distinguished himself by smacking Arius in the mouth at the
> Council of Nicaea.
This doesn't have much to do with anything, but in Latvian the name is
Nikolajs. (The j is pronounced like the y in yumm.)
--
Skitt (SF Bay Area)
http://come.to/skitt
Jerry Friedman
> Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Feb 11, 10:27 pm, Zwartend k <fredrik.bjo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> As far as I can see the original Greek has no diacritic
> >> indicating rough breathing which would give an extra h in the Latin
> >> alphabet.
> >> It seems that it was written Nicholas already in Anglo-Norman, which
> >> surprised me.
> > ...
>
> > The Online Etymology Dictionary says, 'masc. proper name, from Gk.
> > Nikholaos, lit. "victory-people," from nike "victory" + laos
> > "people."'
>
> >http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=Nicholas&searchmode=none
>
> > /The Origins of English Words: A Discursive Dictionary of Indo-
> > European Roots/, by Joseph Twadell Shipley, also uses the spelling
> > with an "h".
>
> >http://books.google.com/books?id=m1UKpE4YEkEC&pg=PA86&dq=Nikholaos
>
> That is Twaddle, Mr Shipley. The "kh" is totally wrong, as is the double
> "k" he puts in "nikke" (victory).
That did look strange, but what do I know about Greek?
> > Neither of them gives a Greek source. I didn't see any other relevant
> > hits on "Nikholaos", but those with /La Grande Encyclop die/ might
> > want to consult volume 9 (which is on GB but with no preview). The on-
> > line Liddell and Scott doesn't appear to have proper names.
>
> Liddell and Scott have the appellative "nikolaos", which is "a kind of
> date named after Nicolaus of Damascus".
I saw that, but it only showed that someone wrote the name with a
kappa (or a c?), whereas I was wondering whether anyone ever wrote it
with a chi. So thanks for making it clear that no one did.
--
Jerry Friedman
Nick Spalding
on Sat, 12 Feb 2011 15:23:17 -0800:
> This doesn't have much to do with anything, but in Latvian the name is
> Nikolajs. (The j is pronounced like the y in yumm.)
Tangentially, is my impression correct that Latvian male names all end
in 's', and female ones in 'a'. I am acquainted with about a dozen
Latvians and this is the case for all of them. Two in particular stand
out, Edmunds and his son Edgars, plain English names with an 's' tacked
on!
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
Athel Cornish-Bowden
It was his/her first post here, I think, so it's a bit rash to assume
that he/she knows what's appropriate.
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> On Sat, 12 Feb 2011 19:07:12 +0100, James Hogg <Jas....@gOUTmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> On Feb 11, 10:27 pm, Zwartend�k <fredrik.bjo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> As far as I can see the original Greek Νικόλαος has no diacritic
>>>> indicating rough breathing which would give an extra h in the Latin
>>>> alphabet.
>>>> It seems that it was written Nicholas already in Anglo-Norman, which
>>>> surprised me.
>>> ...
>>>
>>> The Online Etymology Dictionary says, 'masc. proper name, from Gk.
>>> Nikholaos, lit. "victory-people," from nike "victory" + laos
>>> "people."'
>>>
>>> http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=Nicholas&searchmode=none
>>>
>>> /The Origins of English Words: A Discursive Dictionary of Indo-
>>> European Roots/, by Joseph Twadell Shipley, also uses the spelling
>>> with an "h".
>>>
>>> http://books.google.com/books?id=m1UKpE4YEkEC&pg=PA86&dq=Nikholaos
>>
>> That is Twaddle, Mr Shipley. The "kh" is totally wrong, as is the double
>> "k" he puts in "nikke" (victory).
>>
>>> Neither of them gives a Greek source. I didn't see any other relevant
>>> hits on "Nikholaos", but those with /La Grande Encyclopιdie/ might
>>> want to consult volume 9 (which is on GB but with no preview). The on-
>>> line Liddell and Scott doesn't appear to have proper names.
>>
>> Liddell and Scott have the appellative "nikolaos", which is "a kind of
>> date named after Nicolaus of Damascus".
>
> The original form of the name used in English was "Nicol": it was
> established before the Norman conquest, usually for monks. Withycombe
> says the intrusive "h" is found as early as 12C, and goes along with
> the idea that it probably appeared in the confusion arising from
> Latinizing of Greek words with the aspirated single letters -- theta,
> rho, phi, and chi.
>
> I see that St Nicholas of Myra
Coincidence: until yesterday I didn't realize that there was a church
in Marseilles dedicated to St Nicolas of Myra (and I don't think I'd
heard of the saint, at least, not with the "of Myra" bit), but we
visited it after thinking it looked unusual from the outside.
> isn't only the patron of children and
> pawnbrokers, but also of sailors and wolves. Why do wolves need a
> patron saint? Somebody recently disabused me of a lovely belief that
> he'd also distinguished himself by smacking Arius in the mouth at the
> Council of Nicaea.
--
athel
Jonathan Morton
news:ij5qob$7uc$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> I don't know but it wouldn't surprise me if there are "misspellings" of
> other words of Greek origin. (I put quotes round "misspellings" to avoid
> being accused of the etymological fallacy.) The "intrusive" h in Anthony
> is much later, late 16th century.
>
Is it as early as that? I thought it was a victorian affectation.
Shakespeare's Antony is certainly h-less.
I am not sure if anyone has actually mentione in this thread that "Nicolas"
and "Antony" certainly do exist in English, though certainly outnumbered in
Britain. I came within a whisker of registering our son Nicholas with the
better spelling, but decided he didn't want to go through life calling
himself "Nicolas without an h".
Regards
Jonathan
Jonathan Morton
news:8rprou...@mid.individual.net...
>
> Coincidence: until yesterday I didn't realize that there was a church in
On the subject of intrusive letters, isn't it time we started to spell Lyon
and Marseille the way we (now) pronounce them - more or less in the French
manner?
Regards
Jonathan
Donna Richoux
Who are the English speakers who care one way or the other? Who has
reason to write either very often? Are there any major sports
tournaments there, upcoming?
I'm not being totally dismissive. But you need to identify who your
supporters are, if you want to organize a campaign.
At least you've got a tune for a theme song.
--
Dubiously -- Donna Richoux
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
wrote:
>Jonathan Morton <jonathan.mortonb...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> "Athel Cornish-Bowden" <acor...@ifr88.cnrs-mrs.fr> wrote in message
>> news:8rprou...@mid.individual.net...
>> >
>> > Coincidence: until yesterday I didn't realize that there was a church in
>> > Marseilles...
>>
>> On the subject of intrusive letters, isn't it time we started to spell Lyon
>> and Marseille the way we (now) pronounce them - more or less in the French
>> manner?
>>
>Who are the English speakers who care one way or the other? Who has
>reason to write either very often? Are there any major sports
>tournaments there, upcoming?
>
Olympique de Marseille is a leading football (soccer) team. It is known
to football fans in Britain from its participation in European
competitions and also as a team from which some players in British teams
have come from.
I've Googled "marseille site:.mirror.co.uk" (the Mirror being a
mass-market newspaper). It seems that the paper uses the spelling
"Marseille" in its articles when referring to the foorball team.
For example from two months ago:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/latest/2010/12/08/drogba-looks-forward-115875-22769396/
Didier Drogba will make an emotional return to the Stade Velodrome
on Wednesday night determined to fire Chelsea out of their current
mid-season slump.
Chelsea face Marseille in their final Group F game knowing they have
already finished top. Marseille have also secured second place and
although there is little to play for, Drogba maintains it is
important that he and the team begin to improve.
....
Drogba, now 32, spent just a year at Marseille, scoring 18 Ligue One
goals plus another 11 in Europe in 2003-04 after arriving from EA
Guingamp.
Drogba is a native of "Cote d'Ivoire" or using the English spelling
"Ivory Coast".
A search of the same site for "marseilles site:.mirror.co.uk" finds some
hits, but fewer. Marseilles, with an s, seems to be used mainly in
non-sporting contexts - news events and travel.
>I'm not being totally dismissive. But you need to identify who your
>supporters are, if you want to organize a campaign.
>
>At least you've got a tune for a theme song.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Steve Hayes
<acor...@ifr88.cnrs-mrs.fr> wrote:
>> I see that St Nicholas of Myra
>
>Coincidence: until yesterday I didn't realize that there was a church
>in Marseilles dedicated to St Nicolas of Myra (and I don't think I'd
>heard of the saint, at least, not with the "of Myra" bit), but we
>visited it after thinking it looked unusual from the outside.
Not even in his alter ego as Santa Claus?
Our church is dedicated to St Nicholas of Japan, and there are several others,
but St Nicholas of Myra is the best known of them.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 12:04:16 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <acor...@ifr88.cnrs-mrs.fr> wrote:
>
>>> I see that St Nicholas of Myra
>>
>> Coincidence: until yesterday I didn't realize that there was a church
>> in Marseilles dedicated to St Nicolas of Myra (and I don't think I'd
>> heard of the saint, at least, not with the "of Myra" bit), but we
>> visited it after thinking it looked unusual from the outside.
>
> Not even in his alter ego as Santa Claus?
>
> Our church is dedicated to St Nicholas of Japan, and there are several others,
> but St Nicholas of Myra is the best known of them.
Did you miss "not with the 'of Myra' bit"?
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
<jonathan.mortonb...@btinternet.com> said:
Final s in these names (and most words) in silent in French, so the
French also pronounce them according to the English spelling.
But in any case, why? What would be achieved by bowing to modern
fashion? Would you want Köln, Bruxelles, Sevilla, Venezia, etc., as
well?
--
athel
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>competitions and also as a team from which some players in British teams
>have come from.
Remove a "from" according to personal taste.
Joachim Pense
I didn't. In fact I am not sure about that point myself, but I don't
care enough to look it up.
Joachim
Zwartendÿk
> Maybe because the name of this newsgroup perhaps suggests it is mainly
> about discussing prescriptive advice in English, and not pure questions
> of language interest (which should be put to sci.lang).
Ah, OK, I see. I was unsure, but just from looking at the name I
mistakenly thought sci.lang was about language in natural science or
something like that.
But it seems my question has been answered very well:
On 12 Feb, 23:56, Mike Lyle <mike_lyle...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> The original form of the name used in English was "Nicol": it was
> established before the Norman conquest, usually for monks. Withycombe
> says the intrusive "h" is found as early as 12C, and goes along with
> the idea that it probably appeared in the confusion arising from
> Latinizing of Greek words with the aspirated single letters -- theta,
> rho, phi, and chi.
Thanks, so it originally was a mistake, etymologically speaking, after
all. Obviously the Normans didnt't always read ch as (/t/ + a)
fricative, but also as /k/+/h/, since they quite often wrote Nicole
(i.e. Lincoln) as Nichole, according to the Anglo-Norman Online Hub.
J. J. Lodder
> On 2011-02-12 23:56:22 +0100, Mike Lyle <mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk> said:
>
> > On Sat, 12 Feb 2011 19:07:12 +0100, James Hogg <Jas....@gOUTmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >>> On Feb 11, 10:27 pm, Zwartend�k <fredrik.bjo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> As far as I can see the original Greek �������� has no diacritic
> >>>> indicating rough breathing which would give an extra h in the Latin
> >>>> alphabet.
> >>>> It seems that it was written Nicholas already in Anglo-Norman, which
> >>>> surprised me.
> >>> ...
> >>>
> >>> The Online Etymology Dictionary says, 'masc. proper name, from Gk.
> >>> Nikholaos, lit. "victory-people," from nike "victory" + laos
> >>> "people."'
> >>>
> >>> http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=Nicholas&searchmode=none
> >>>
> >>> /The Origins of English Words: A Discursive Dictionary of Indo-
> >>> European Roots/, by Joseph Twadell Shipley, also uses the spelling
> >>> with an "h".
> >>>
> >>> http://books.google.com/books?id=m1UKpE4YEkEC&pg=PA86&dq=Nikholaos
> >>
> >> That is Twaddle, Mr Shipley. The "kh" is totally wrong, as is the double
> >> "k" he puts in "nikke" (victory).
> >>
> >>> Neither of them gives a Greek source. I didn't see any other relevant
> >>> hits on "Nikholaos", but those with /La Grande Encyclop�die/ might
> >>> want to consult volume 9 (which is on GB but with no preview). The on-
> >>> line Liddell and Scott doesn't appear to have proper names.
> >>
> >> Liddell and Scott have the appellative "nikolaos", which is "a kind of
> >> date named after Nicolaus of Damascus".
> >
> > The original form of the name used in English was "Nicol": it was
> > established before the Norman conquest, usually for monks. Withycombe
> > says the intrusive "h" is found as early as 12C, and goes along with
> > the idea that it probably appeared in the confusion arising from
> > Latinizing of Greek words with the aspirated single letters -- theta,
> > rho, phi, and chi.
> >
> > I see that St Nicholas of Myra
>
> Coincidence: until yesterday I didn't realize that there was a church
> in Marseilles dedicated to St Nicolas of Myra (and I don't think I'd
> heard of the saint, at least, not with the "of Myra" bit), but we
> visited it after thinking it looked unusual from the outside.
Saint Nicolas of Myra -is- the Dutch 'Sint Nicolaas',
aka 'Sinterklaas', (name day dec 5)
Sinterklaas morphed into Santa Claus, name day forgotten,
who has by now (after proper Disneyfication)
returned to France,
Jan
J. J. Lodder
> fashion? Would you want K�ln, Bruxelles, Sevilla, Venezia, etc., as
> well?
's Gravenhage please, leading apostrophe,
the s -never- capitalised.
In case of need 'Den Haag' wil also do,
Jan
Skitt
> Skitt wrote:
>> This doesn't have much to do with anything, but in Latvian the name is
>> Nikolajs. (The j is pronounced like the y in yumm.)
>
> Tangentially, is my impression correct that Latvian male names all end
> in 's', and female ones in 'a'. I am acquainted with about a dozen
> Latvians and this is the case for all of them. Two in particular stand
> out, Edmunds and his son Edgars, plain English names with an 's' tacked
> on!
Yes, male names end in "s", but female names end in "a" or "e".
There are some "imported" male names that end in "o" (Gvido, Oto, Hugo).
There is also a male name "Uga" (from Hugo).
Nick Spalding
on Sun, 13 Feb 2011 10:24:51 -0800:
Thanks.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
Mike Lyle
Glad to be of assistance. Avoid sci.lang: a haunt of obsessive loonies
who, as it were, know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
They're also entertainingly sensitive: it usually takes far less than
this to get one or two of them going.
--
Mike.
Steve Hayes
<acor...@ifr88.cnrs-mrs.fr> wrote:
>On 2011-02-13 13:16:43 +0100, Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> said:
>
>> On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 12:04:16 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
>> <acor...@ifr88.cnrs-mrs.fr> wrote:
>>
>>>> I see that St Nicholas of Myra
>>>
>>> Coincidence: until yesterday I didn't realize that there was a church
>>> in Marseilles dedicated to St Nicolas of Myra (and I don't think I'd
>>> heard of the saint, at least, not with the "of Myra" bit), but we
>>> visited it after thinking it looked unusual from the outside.
>>
>> Not even in his alter ego as Santa Claus?
>>
>> Our church is dedicated to St Nicholas of Japan, and there are several others,
>> but St Nicholas of Myra is the best known of them.
>
>Did you miss "not with the 'of Myra' bit"?
No, that was the bit that caught my eye. It's St Nicholas "of Myra" whose the
best-known of the bunch.