... right the way across the country
Marius Hancu
Is
"right the way across/through"
an idiom meaning
"from one end to end?"
---
It is no longer expensive and it is universally available right the
way across
the country.
Prison Suicides and Overcrowding: Oral and Written Evidence, Tuesday
8 ... - Page 21
Great Britain: Parliament: House of Commons: Home Affairs Committee,
House of Commons - Social Science - 2006 - 46 pages
---
--
Thanks.
Marius Hancu
the Omrud
Yes. It's so ordinary, I'm having difficulty seeing why it wouldn't be
obvious to all.
--
David
Jonathan Morton
news:esbJm.2515$Ym4....@text.news.virginmedia.com...
> Marius Hancu wrote:
>> Hello:
>>
>> Is
>> "right the way across/through"
>> an idiom meaning
>> "from one end to end?"
>> ---
>> It is no longer expensive and it is universally available right the
>> way across
>> the country.
>>
>> Prison Suicides and Overcrowding: Oral and Written Evidence, Tuesday
>> Great Britain: Parliament: House of Commons: Home Affairs Committee,
>> House of Commons - Social Science - 2006 - 46 pages
>> ---
>
> Yes. It's so ordinary, I'm having difficulty seeing why it wouldn't be
> obvious to all.
It's not so much "from end to end" in a linear sense. More "universal" or
"across the country". The sentence in the OP is a masterpiece of tautology.
Regards
Jonathan
Chuck Riggs
<usenet...@gEXPUNGEmail.com> wrote:
>Marius Hancu wrote:
>> Hello:
>>
>> Is
>> "right the way across/through"
>> an idiom meaning
>> "from one end to end?"
>> ---
>> It is no longer expensive and it is universally available right the
>> way across
>> the country.
>>
>> Prison Suicides and Overcrowding: Oral and Written Evidence, Tuesday
>> 8 ...? - Page 21
>> Great Britain: Parliament: House of Commons: Home Affairs Committee,
>> House of Commons - Social Science - 2006 - 46 pages
>> ---
>
>Yes. It's so ordinary, I'm having difficulty seeing why it wouldn't be
>obvious to all.
Or "That should be obvious to the casual observer", as an American cow
worker of mine in the early seventies was fond of saying.
--
Regards,
Chuck Riggs,
An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE
Skitt
> Marius Hancu wrote:
Ordinary? It's right up there with "weirdly quaint" for me.
--
Skitt (AmE)
Marius Hancu
<jonathan.mortonbutignorethisp...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> "the Omrud" <usenet.om...@gEXPUNGEmail.com> wrote in message
> >> Is
> >> "right the way across/through"
> >> an idiom meaning
> >> "from one end to end?"
> >> ---
> >> It is no longer expensive and it is universally available right the
> >> way across
> >> the country.
>
> >> Prison Suicides and Overcrowding: Oral and Written Evidence, Tuesday
> >> 8 ...? - Page 21
> >> Great Britain: Parliament: House of Commons: Home Affairs Committee,
> >> House of Commons - Social Science - 2006 - 46 pages
> >> ---
>
> > Yes. It's so ordinary, I'm having difficulty seeing why it wouldn't be
> > obvious to all.
>
> It's not so much "from end to end" in a linear sense. More "universal" or
> "across the country".
I'll keep that in mind.
Thank you all.
Marius Hancu
Donna Richoux
> the Omrud wrote:
> > Marius Hancu wrote:
>
> >> Is
> >> "right the way across/through"
> >> an idiom meaning
> >> "from one end to end?"
> >> ---
> >> It is no longer expensive and it is universally available right the
> >> way across the country.
[snip]
> >
> > Yes. It's so ordinary, I'm having difficulty seeing why it wouldn't
> > be obvious to all.
>
> Ordinary? It's right up there with "weirdly quaint" for me.
You're right, it isn't an American construction at all. We would say
"all the way" or simply "clear".
I looked for more examples of "right the way" and the first two I found
were also British:
Thatcher ... and her right wing media machine ... brow
beat and brainwashed the populace using fear, fear
of Communists, socialists, union members, New age
Travellers right the way through today's "war on
terror" ...
And:
They have paid into the NHS then they get what they
need. This goes right the way down to cost of
prescriptions being free in certain parts of the UK ...
Who's got the logbook for numbering Little Known US-UK Differences?
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
An American living in the Netherlands
Jonathan Morton
news:1j8txlx.1u62lhc1fct3gxN%tr...@euronet.nl...
>
> You're right, it isn't an American construction at all. We would say
> "all the way" or simply "clear".
>
> I looked for more examples of "right the way" and the first two I found
> were also British:
>
> Thatcher ... and her right wing media machine ... brow
> beat and brainwashed the populace using fear, fear
> of Communists, socialists, union members, New age
> Travellers right the way through today's "war on
> terror" ...
Are you sure about the last bit? That "through" without "to" is very un-BrE.
Regards
Jonathan
Donna Richoux
The URL is
http://www.brokebritain.com/2009/10/seeing-beyond-the-left-right-paradig
m/
so you can see for yourself. I have to drag to the right to see any
text. The excerpt is from the reader's comment.
Mark Brader
> "from one end to end?"
You have mixed two idioms that have the same meaning. You should have
said "from one end to the other" or "from end to end". (As to the
original question, see the answers already posted.)
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Do people confuse me with Mark Brader?"
m...@vex.net --Mark Barratt
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
wrote:
The reader uses the name "lefty_plasticleprechaun".
He or she might be Irish. A quick but not definitive search suggests
that some Irish people use AmE-style "through" where the British would
use "to": "Monday through Thursday" rather than "Monday to Thursday".
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Django Cat
As in 'I work there Monday through Friday' - very AmE to BrE ears.
DC
--
DC
> On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 22:19:02 +0100, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
> wrote:
>
> >Jonathan Morton <jonathan.mortonb...@btinternet.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> "Donna Richoux" <tr...@euronet.nl> wrote in message
> >> news:1j8txlx.1u62lhc1fct3gxN%tr...@euronet.nl...
> >> >
> >> > You're right, it isn't an American construction at all. We would
> say >> > "all the way" or simply "clear".
> >> >
> >> > I looked for more examples of "right the way" and the first two
> I found >> > were also British:
> >> >
> >> > Thatcher ... and her right wing media machine ... brow
> >> > beat and brainwashed the populace using fear, fear
> >> > of Communists, socialists, union members, New age
> >> > Travellers right the way through today's "war on
> >> > terror" ...
> >>
> >> Are you sure about the last bit? That "through" without "to" is
> very un-BrE. >>
> > The URL is
> >
> > http://www.brokebritain.com/2009/10/seeing-beyond-the-left-right-par
> > adig m/
> >
> > so you can see for yourself. I have to drag to the right to see any
> > text. The excerpt is from the reader's comment.
>
> The reader uses the name "lefty_plasticleprechaun".
>
> He or she might be Irish. A quick but not definitive search suggests
> that some Irish people use AmE-style "through" where the British would
> use "to": "Monday through Thursday" rather than "Monday to Thursday".
Mr (or Ms) Plasticleprechaun's first sentence is "An interesting take
on things *buddy* ". This suggests that he or she may hail from
somewhere further West[1] than Ireland...
DC [1] Or less far East, depending where you're reading this..
--
Donna Richoux
He (I'm going to assume "he) is a puzzle. But the "sod" in the fuller
quote and "New age travellers" said to me that this was not an American,
above and beyond the face he knew anything at all about Thatcher except
maybe that she had been a prime minister.
I don't know who says "buddy" in the general address sense of "pal." I
can find "Buddy" used as a nickname in Ireland, and, yes, by looking for
"listen buddy" I find this example, by Pighead of Dundalk (Ireland):
Listen buddy, that last post reeks of desperation, have
a bit of pride man, let it go.
And this, by mac tire of Laighin (Ireland):
Listen buddy, you don't come on here demanding the
respect and the trust of others.
Did the Americans get "buddy" from immigrant Irish? Of course the
original meaning was a childish alteration of "brother" ...RHHDAS
credits Black English which surprises me, and they don't have a lot of
evidence. Their citation for the general sense of "friend" start in the
1860s, and for the direct address of a stranger in the 1880s. There is
an obsolete spelling "butty."
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
wrote:
It is perfectly possible that "Listen buddy..." was picked up from TV
and movies and used by these non-Americans in their online discussions.
Phrases can be used by people in a group context that the individuals
would not use outside that context. For instance, some AUEers, British
and non-British, when writing in this ng will use the tag "innit?" at
the end of some sentences. Many would not use it in other contexts.
The OED says:
innit, int.
Brit. and Welsh English. As a tag question following declarative
statements, inviting agreement, approval, etc. (equivalent to
�aren't you�, �isn't he�, �wasn't I�, etc.). Also in weakened use,
as a filler.
Freq. associated with the speech of young British Asians.
"innit" was used recently by Ron Draney. I don't think he fits the
description of a speaker of British or Welsh English, and he is not a
young British Asian, but he is an AUEer who used an in-group expression.
>Did the Americans get "buddy" from immigrant Irish? Of course the
>original meaning was a childish alteration of "brother" ...RHHDAS
>credits Black English which surprises me, and they don't have a lot of
>evidence. Their citation for the general sense of "friend" start in the
>1860s, and for the direct address of a stranger in the 1880s. There is
>an obsolete spelling "butty."
--
Django Cat
> >
> > Listen buddy, you don't come on here demanding the
> > respect and the trust of others.
> >
>
> It is perfectly possible that "Listen buddy..." was picked up from TV
> and movies and used by these non-Americans in their online
> discussions.
True indeed.
>
> Phrases can be used by people in a group context that the individuals
> would not use outside that context. For instance, some AUEers, British
> and non-British, when writing in this ng will use the tag "innit?" at
> the end of some sentences. Many would not use it in other contexts.
Mmm. Used when folk are being deliberately and possibly ironically
demotic, I think we'd all agree.
>
> The OED says:
>
> innit, int.
>
> Brit. and Welsh English. As a tag question following declarative
> statements, inviting agreement, approval, etc. (equivalent to
> �aren't you�, �isn't he�, �wasn't I�, etc.). Also in weakened use,
> as a filler.
> Freq. associated with the speech of young British Asians.
Well, that's a curious one. Question tags are one of those pieces of
grammar that are maddeningly difficult to teach, and not that useful
communicatively when the student *can* use them. Think about it; you
have to take the auxiliary verb of the question, invert the subject and
verb, and then make it negative if it's positive, and positive if
negative:
"You like cheese, don't you?" (auxiliary 'do' here).
"He would say that, wouldn't he?" (thank you Mandy Rice-Davies)
"You won't tell him, will you?"
"There's some cheese in the fridge, isn't there?"
"You couldn't lend me a fiver, could you?"
And on ad infinitum.
Faced with this, you can see how as Indian English emerged, it adopted
the idea of the polite BrE question tag (do they happen in AmE?), but
simplified the grammar with a single global tag to give the familiar:
"You like cheese, isn't it?"
Which younger generations of UK-born Asian kids have transmogrified
into 'innit' and often passed on to non-Asian classmates. Well, that's
my theory... innit?
>
> "innit" was used recently by Ron Draney. I don't think he fits the
> description of a speaker of British or Welsh English, and he is not a
> young British Asian, but he is an AUEer who used an in-group
> expression.
I've always assumed yer man's poking gentle fun at us Brits there.
DC
--
Django Cat
> DC <nota...@address.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote:
> >
> > > On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 22:19:02 +0100, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Jonathan Morton
> > > > <jonathan.mortonb...@btinternet.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> "Donna Richoux" <tr...@euronet.nl> wrote in message
> > > >> news:1j8txlx.1u62lhc1fct3gxN%tr...@euronet.nl...
> > > >> >
> > > >> > You're right, it isn't an American construction at all. We
> > > would say >> > "all the way" or simply "clear".
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I looked for more examples of "right the way" and the first
> > > two I found >> > were also British:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Thatcher ... and her right wing media machine ... brow
> > > >> > beat and brainwashed the populace using fear, fear
> > > >> > of Communists, socialists, union members, New age
> > > >> > Travellers right the way through today's "war on
> > > >> > terror" ...
> > > >>
> > > >> Are you sure about the last bit? That "through" without "to" is
> > > very un-BrE. >>
> > > > The URL is
> > > >
> > > > http://www.brokebritain.com/2009/10/seeing-beyond-the-left-right
> > > > -par adig m/
> > > >
> > > > so you can see for yourself. I have to drag to the right to see
> > > > any text. The excerpt is from the reader's comment.
> > >
> > > The reader uses the name "lefty_plasticleprechaun".
> > >
> > > He or she might be Irish. A quick but not definitive search
> > > suggests that some Irish people use AmE-style "through" where the
> > > British would use "to": "Monday through Thursday" rather than
> > > "Monday to Thursday".
> >
> > Mr (or Ms) Plasticleprechaun's first sentence is "An interesting
> > take on things buddy ". This suggests that he or she may hail from
> > somewhere further West[1] than Ireland...
>
> He (I'm going to assume "he) is a puzzle. But the "sod" in the fuller
> quote and "New age travellers" said to me that this was not an
> American, above and beyond the face he knew anything at all about
> Thatcher except maybe that she had been a prime minister.
You're right, Donna. I hadn't got past the first sentence earlier. If
the previous poster had been American we might have been in "insult the
person you're talking to by sarcastically using their national slang"
country here, but it would appear not.
>
> I don't know who says "buddy" in the general address sense of "pal." I
> can find "Buddy" used as a nickname in Ireland, and, yes, by looking
> for "listen buddy" I find this example, by Pighead of Dundalk
> (Ireland):
>
> Listen buddy, that last post reeks of desperation, have
> a bit of pride man, let it go.
>
> And this, by mac tire of Laighin (Ireland):
>
> Listen buddy, you don't come on here demanding the
> respect and the trust of others.
>
> Did the Americans get "buddy" from immigrant Irish?
In Oldham Lancashire, where I worked for four years and has
incomprehensible patois, 'bud' is very common.
>Of course the
> original meaning was a childish alteration of "brother" ...RHHDAS
> credits Black English which surprises me, and they don't have a lot of
> evidence. Their citation for the general sense of "friend" start in
> the 1860s, and for the direct address of a stranger in the 1880s.
> There is an obsolete spelling "butty."
Mmm... I've heard that, I think in Victorian novels. If Nick's around
maybe he'll pick up on Butty Boat.
DC Me, I'm off to IKEA for the Hot Dogs, innit?
--
Roland Hutchinson
>> "innit" was used recently by Ron Draney. I don't think he fits the
>> description of a speaker of British or Welsh English, and he is not a
>> young British Asian, but he is an AUEer who used an in-group
>> expression.
>
> I've always assumed yer man's poking gentle fun at us Brits there.
Like shootin' fish in a bloomin' barrel, innit.
--
Roland Hutchinson
He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba,"
... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy.
--Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ )
Django Cat
> On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 13:46:50 +0000, Django Cat wrote:
>
> >> "innit" was used recently by Ron Draney. I don't think he fits the
> >> description of a speaker of British or Welsh English, and he is
> not a >> young British Asian, but he is an AUEer who used an in-group
> >> expression.
> >
> > I've always assumed yer man's poking gentle fun at us Brits there.
>
> Like shootin' fish in a bloomin' barrel, innit.
I should rococo, guvnor. But at least it's an accurate take on modern
BrE, rather than the "I say old chap, jolly poor show" stuff;
Purleeeze.
DC
--
Jonathan Morton
news:cERJm.40572$9M4....@newsfe03.ams2...
Exactly. The expression is perfectly understood, but not used in BrE.
Regards
Jonathan
Skitt
> "Django Cat" wrote:
>> Jonathan Morton wrote:
>>>> You're right, it isn't an American construction at all. We would
>>>> say "all the way" or simply "clear".
>>>>
>>>> I looked for more examples of "right the way" and the first two I
>>>> found were also British:
>>>>
>>>> Thatcher ... and her right wing media machine ... brow
>>>> beat and brainwashed the populace using fear, fear
>>>> of Communists, socialists, union members, New age
>>>> Travellers right the way through today's "war on
>>>> terror" ...
>>>
>>> Are you sure about the last bit? That "through" without "to" is very
>>> un-BrE.
>>
>> As in 'I work there Monday through Friday' - very AmE to BrE ears.
>
> Exactly. The expression is perfectly understood, but not used in BrE.
The problem is, an expression like "Monday to Thursday" is generally
understood by Americans as not including Thursday. After all, it is only
*to* it, not *through* it. There have been some misunderstandings between
my Filipino relatives (they seem to use the British convention) and the
American part of our family. I always check whether the terminal day was
meant to be included.
There are other non-native English problems, such as a work-schedule
statement heard in mid-week "I'm off to Saturday", meaning "including
Saturday". I would have expected to hear "I'm off through Saturday" or,
more likely, "I'm off till Sunday".
--
Skitt (AmE)
Roland Hutchinson
Righty-o. Carry on.
Amethyst Deceiver
Mike Lyle
> Marius Hancu wrote:
>> Hello:
>>
>> Is
>> "right the way across/through"
>> an idiom meaning
>> "from one end to end?"
>> ---
>> It is no longer expensive and it is universally available right the
>> way across
>> the country.
>>
>> Prison Suicides and Overcrowding: Oral and Written Evidence, Tuesday
>> Great Britain: Parliament: House of Commons: Home Affairs Committee,
>> House of Commons - Social Science - 2006 - 46 pages
>> ---
>
> Yes. It's so ordinary, I'm having difficulty seeing why it wouldn't
> be obvious to all.
Ah. One of the Briticisms I've never got comfortable with, even after
all these decades. I'd be astounded if I heard myself say it in place of
my "all the way"...so I suppose I'll find myself uttering it tomorrow.
--
Mike.
Nick
>>Of course the
>> original meaning was a childish alteration of "brother" ...RHHDAS
>> credits Black English which surprises me, and they don't have a lot of
>> evidence. Their citation for the general sense of "friend" start in
>> the 1860s, and for the direct address of a stranger in the 1880s.
>> There is an obsolete spelling "butty."
>
> Mmm... I've heard that, I think in Victorian novels. If Nick's around
> maybe he'll pick up on Butty Boat.
I believe the origin of "butty" as a butty boat (an unpowered narrow
boat pulled by a "motor") is from buddy. That means it can't date from
much more than a decade or two before the turn of the 20th century.
It's certainly defined in Bradshaw's of 1904.
It's still used for "buddy" in Wales. I give you "Butty Bach" from Wye
Valley Brewery, and the following:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200102/cmstand/welshg/st020716/am/20716s08.htm
--
Online waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk
development version: http://canalplan.eu
Jerry Friedman
All the time, you know? I mean, we're always doing that, right?
Okay?
> but
> simplified the grammar with a single global tag to give the familiar:
>
> "You like cheese, isn't it?"
>
> Which younger generations of UK-born Asian kids have transmogrified
> into 'innit' and often passed on to non-Asian classmates. Well, that's
> my theory... innit?
Sherman Alexie shows the other Indians using "innit" or "ennit" the
same way. Sounds like the origin is the same, only this time the non-
native speakers were Native.
--
Jerry Friedman
Mike Lyle
[...]
>
> Did the Americans get "buddy" from immigrant Irish? Of course the
> original meaning was a childish alteration of "brother" ...RHHDAS
> credits Black English which surprises me, and they don't have a lot of
> evidence. Their citation for the general sense of "friend" start in
> the 1860s, and for the direct address of a stranger in the 1880s.
> There is an obsolete spelling "butty."
It's not known for certain, but I'm inclined to believe that "butty" is
the original form: still quite common in British dialect or trade use.
"Butty" is often shortened to "but" in Welsh English.
--
Mike.
Peter Moylan
>> The OED says:
>>
>> innit, int.
>>
>> [...]
>> Freq. associated with the speech of young British Asians.
> Faced with this, you can see how as Indian English emerged, it adopted
> the idea of the polite BrE question tag (do they happen in AmE?), but
> simplified the grammar with a single global tag to give the familiar:
>
> "You like cheese, isn't it?"
>
> Which younger generations of UK-born Asian kids have transmogrified
> into 'innit' and often passed on to non-Asian classmates. Well, that's
> my theory... innit?
Ah, the penny drops. I couldn't understand how British Asians had picked
up this word. No matter how often I hear this association, I just can't
force myself to think of Indians as Asians. India is too far west.
In news reports and the like in Australia, India is very commonly called
"the subcontinent". The common image, I think, is that India isn't
really part of Asia, it's a separate land mass that just happened to
bump into Asia.
In the Australian mind, Asia stretches westward to somewhere just past
Burma. It includes Bhutan and possibly even Nepal, but not Bangladesh.
(Perhaps I should have said east-coast Australian. I wouldn't be
surprised to hear a dissenting voice from Rob.)
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
<pe...@pmoylan.org.not.china> wrote:
>
>In news reports and the like in Australia, India is very commonly called
>"the subcontinent". The common image, I think, is that India isn't
>really part of Asia, it's a separate land mass that just happened to
>bump into Asia.
I think plate-tectonical geologists would confirm that is just what
happened. Bump, push, shove, heave, crumple - "The only way is up":
Voila! the Himalayas.
In BrE what used to be happily called India started to be referred to as
"the subcontinent" following Independence which resulted in "India"
becoming India and Pakistan (West and East, now Pakistan and
Bangladesh).
Mark Brader
> Faced with this, you can see how as Indian English emerged, it adopted
> the idea of the polite BrE question tag (do they happen in AmE?), but
> simplified the grammar with a single global tag to give the familiar:
>
> "You like cheese, isn't it?"
Or perhaps someone in India once learned French?
--
Mark Brader | I passed a sign that said "you are here",
Toronto | but I didn't entirely believe it.
m...@vex.net | --Michael Levine
Mark Brader
> The problem is, an expression like "Monday to Thursday" is generally
> understood by Americans as not including Thursday.
Generally? I have never encountered *any* English-speaker using "to"
with dates that way. (And been able to tell it was going on.)
--
Mark Brader (Douglas R.) Hofstadter's Law:
Toronto "It always takes longer than you expect, even
m...@vex.net when you take into account Hofstadter's Law."
Nick
> "Skitt":
>> The problem is, an expression like "Monday to Thursday" is generally
>> understood by Americans as not including Thursday.
>
> Generally? I have never encountered *any* English-speaker using "to"
> with dates that way. (And been able to tell it was going on.)
Here you go:
My workin week is Monday to Friday. Any time I work at weekends I can
either claim overtime for (with management permission[*], if we have any
money left in the overtime budget) or take time off in the week to make
up for it. Oddly, although I get a higher pay rate for weekend overtime
than for weekday, two hours worked on Saturday only gets me two hours
off any day Monday to Friday.
[*] which for most intents and purposes actually means me.
James Hogg
> "Skitt":
>> The problem is, an expression like "Monday to Thursday" is
>> generally understood by Americans as not including Thursday.
>
> Generally? I have never encountered *any* English-speaker using "to"
> with dates that way. (And been able to tell it was going on.)
Are there any Americans who would imagine that you can't get into a
museum on a Thursday if it says that it's only open Monday to Thursday?
--
James
Django Cat
Ah great stuff, LOL. I hadn't seen the Gracie Fields one before...
DC
--
Mark Brader
>>> The problem is, an expression like "Monday to Thursday" is generally
>>> understood by Americans as not including Thursday.
Mark Brader:
>> Generally? I have never encountered *any* English-speaker using "to"
>> with dates that way. (And been able to tell it was going on.)
Nick Atty:
> Here you go:
>
> My workin week is Monday to Friday. Any time I work at weekends I can
> either claim overtime...
Unless you think Friday is part of the weekend, this is *not* an example
of "using it that way".
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "I shot a query into the net.
m...@vex.net | I haven't got an answer yet..." --Ed Nather
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Steve Hayes
>"Skitt":
>> The problem is, an expression like "Monday to Thursday" is generally
>> understood by Americans as not including Thursday.
>
>Generally? I have never encountered *any* English-speaker using "to"
>with dates that way. (And been able to tell it was going on.)
In which way?
To me "Monday to Thursday" excludes Friday to Sunday.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
CDB
> "Viv":
>> Faced with this, you can see how as Indian English emerged, it
>> adopted the idea of the polite BrE question tag (do they happen in
>> AmE?), but simplified the grammar with a single global tag to give
>> the familiar:
>>
>> "You like cheese, isn't it?"
>
> Or perhaps someone in India once learned French?
>
Mike Page
It's the rich wot gets the pleasure, innit?
And it's all a bloomin' shame, innit?
Could be an alternative to that version of 'The Sheik of Araby' where
the singer/chorus adds 'Without your (his, her) pants on' at the end of
every line. (Which can be a real sticker.)
--
Mike Page
Google me at port.ac.uk if you need to send an email.
R H Draney
Not as such, but I'm thinking now of the way some of roads are closed for
weekend construction work...the advisories say things like "the southbound 143
will be closed for striping between the 202 and University between 9pm and 5am,
Friday to Monday"...that means you can drive it during the day even on the
weekend, and that it will be re-opened in time for the Monday morning rush
hour....r
--
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?
Skitt
> "Skitt":
>> The problem is, an expression like "Monday to Thursday" is generally
>> understood by Americans as not including Thursday.
>
> Generally? I have never encountered *any* English-speaker using "to"
> with dates that way. (And been able to tell it was going on.)
Maybe it's just me who fails to be sure about exactly what is meant. I
expect the "through" word for inclusive days. Strike that "generally" and
add "some" before "Americans". Me be "some", m'kay? Maybe I'm weird.
--
Skitt (AmE)
Nick
> "Skitt":
>>>> The problem is, an expression like "Monday to Thursday" is generally
>>>> understood by Americans as not including Thursday.
>
> Mark Brader:
>>> Generally? I have never encountered *any* English-speaker using "to"
>>> with dates that way. (And been able to tell it was going on.)
>
> Nick Atty:
>> Here you go:
>>
>> My workin week is Monday to Friday. Any time I work at weekends I can
>> either claim overtime...
>
> Unless you think Friday is part of the weekend, this is *not* an example
> of "using it that way".
Ah, sorry, I misread you.
Mark Brader
>> Are there any Americans who would imagine that you can't get into a
>> museum on a Thursday if it says that it's only open Monday to Thursday?
> Not as such, but I'm thinking now of the way some of roads are
> closed for weekend construction work...the advisories say things like
> "the southbound 143 will be closed for striping between the 202 and
> University between 9pm and 5am, Friday to Monday"...that means you
> can drive it during the day even on the weekend, and that it will
> be re-opened in time for the Monday morning rush hour....r
So presumably they mean it's being closed 9 pm Friday to 5 am Saturday,
9 pm Saturday to 5 am Sunday, and 9 pm Sunday to 5 am Monday. The
closures do extend from Friday to Monday, although perhaps the maning
is not what a literal reading of the advisory would imply.
I am reminded of *this* sign, which I saw repeatedly while driving the
full length of the eastbound Gardiner Expressway on November 30, 1997:
GARDINER
EASTBOUND
HUMBER TO
JAMIESON
WEEKEND
CLOSURE
9oo PM NOV 28
6oo AM DEC 1
(For "o", read a superscript zero.)
Perhaps they meant "NIGHTLY CLOSURE", but they certainly didn't say so.
It never even occurred to me until now.
Incidentally, each instance of the sign was made up of four separate
small plates and the size of the whole sign was like a speed limit sign,
probably about 15 inches wide -- and it had to be read at expressway
speeds...
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "And kissed her for a hundred and sixty-nine years."
m...@vex.net | -- Connie Willis, To Say Nothing of the Dog
John Kane
> "Viv":
>
> > Faced with this, you can see how as Indian English emerged, it adopted
> > the idea of the polite BrE question tag (do they happen in AmE?), but
> > simplified the grammar with a single global tag to give the familiar:
>
> > "You like cheese, isn't it?"
>
> Or perhaps someone in India once learned French?
Seems reasonable since the French were in India as long as the
British; they were just a bit more modest.
Garrett Wollman
Mark Brader <m...@vex.net> wrote:
>Incidentally, each instance of the sign was made up of four separate
>small plates and the size of the whole sign was like a speed limit sign,
>probably about 15 inches wide -- and it had to be read at expressway
>speeds...
But what's "expressway speeds" on the Gardiner -- 60?
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993
R H Draney
>
>In article <J9adnZxQD-aqXGTX...@vex.net>,
>Mark Brader <m...@vex.net> wrote:
>>Incidentally, each instance of the sign was made up of four separate
>>small plates and the size of the whole sign was like a speed limit sign,
>>probably about 15 inches wide -- and it had to be read at expressway
>>speeds...
>
>But what's "expressway speeds" on the Gardiner -- 60?
We have those big illuminated signs that can be programmed to display the
messages...three or four sequential panels worth of information, of which you
can read two between the time you can make out the sign in the distance and the
time you pass it...so you get:
ALL EXITS CLOSED
USE ALT ROUTE
and you're left wondering if the missed portions tell you there's a bomb scare
ahead or just that the routine closures will take place four days from now....
They need to spread out the signs Mark reported...instead of putting them all on
one post, put one each on four consecutive posts...with an optional fifth sign
reading "Burma Shave"....r
Steve Hayes
I find the American expression strangely incomplete.
Ok, Monday through Thursday -- but where's it going to end up?
If you drive from New York to Los Angeles, does that mean you never actually
reach Los Angeles?
But if you drive from New York through Los Angeles, don't you end up in the
Pacific Ocean, and similarly if you go from Monday through Thursday it sounds
as though you could end up in the middle of next week, or month, or year, or
century.
It all depends on what you're used to, I suppose.
Mark Brader
>> Incidentally, each instance of the sign was made up of four separate
>> small plates and the size of the whole sign was like a speed limit sign,
>> probably about 15 inches wide -- and it had to be read at expressway
>> speeds...
> But what's "expressway speeds" on the Gardiner -- 60?
90 on the original Gardiner, 100 on the western section that used to be
part of the QEW.
--
Mark Brader "Hacking for 8 years gives a guy a memory.
Toronto If you was with a woman -- I'd've noticed."
m...@vex.net PHANTOM LADY
R H Draney
>
>I find the American expression strangely incomplete.
>
>Ok, Monday through Thursday -- but where's it going to end up?
>
>If you drive from New York to Los Angeles, does that mean you never actually
>reach Los Angeles?
>
>But if you drive from New York through Los Angeles, don't you end up in the
>Pacific Ocean, and similarly if you go from Monday through Thursday it sounds
>as though you could end up in the middle of next week, or month, or year, or
>century.
>
>It all depends on what you're used to, I suppose.
If I do something from Monday to Thursday, I can stop at the stroke of midnight
Thursday morning...if I do it from Monday *through* Thursday, I expect to spend
at least the "business hours" of Thursday still engaged in that
activity..."through" isn't as vacuous as you make it out to be; it simply means
"to the far side of"....
There was an old puzzle that asked you to imagine a set of five heavy, bound
books, volumes one to (or "through") five...each book was five inches thick in
toto, and both front and back cover of each book was half an inch thick...the
books are on a shelf, in order...then you're told that a certain bookworm who
can eat one inch of material (pages or covers, it makes no difference to his
rate of progress) per day is going to start munching his way through them,
starting inside the front cover of volume one and ending inside the back cover
of volume five, and you're to figure out how many days this will take....
The obvious solution turns out to be wrong, because one is expected to overlook
the fact that the "front" cover of volume one, when shelved, is on the end
*nearest* volume two; all the actual pages of volumes one and five remain
uneaten...the worm eats from volume one *to* volume five, but not *through*
volume five....
ObInputFromAnotherLanguage: Japanese uses the particles "kara" and "made" as AmE
uses "from" and "through" in this context, but they're usually translated as
"from" and "to" because they can also describe a journey ("T�ky� kara Ny� Y�ku
made" = "from Tokyo to New York")....r
Garrett Wollman
Mark Brader <m...@vex.net> wrote:
>Mark Brader:
>>> Incidentally, each instance of the sign was made up of four separate
>>> small plates and the size of the whole sign was like a speed limit sign,
>>> probably about 15 inches wide -- and it had to be read at expressway
>>> speeds...
>
>Garrett Wollman:
>> But what's "expressway speeds" on the Gardiner -- 60?
>
>90 on the original Gardiner, 100 on the western section that used to be
>part of the QEW.
But for how many minutes a day?
Mark Brader
> There was an old puzzle that asked you to imagine a set of five heavy, bound
> books, volumes one to (or "through") five...each book was five inches thick in
> toto, and both front and back cover of each book was half an inch thick...the
> books are on a shelf, in order...
Of course, you're also expected to assume that the books were published
in an English-speaking country. If they're from France, say, then the
naive answer is correct.
--
Mark Brader | "This was followed by a vocal response which
Toronto | would now be reserved for kicking a ball in a net."
m...@vex.net | --Derrick Beckett
Mark Brader
>>>> and it had to be read at expressway speeds...
Garrett Wollman:
>>> But what's "expressway speeds" on the Gardiner -- 60?
Mark Brader:
>> 90 on the original Gardiner, 100 on the western section that used to be
>> part of the QEW.
Garrett Wollman:
> But for how many minutes a day?
It was a Sunday, remember? Traffic was moving fine.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Big programs are a bug."
m...@vex.net -- Geoff Collyer
Peter Moylan
> R.H. Draney:
>> There was an old puzzle that asked you to imagine a set of five heavy, bound
>> books, volumes one to (or "through") five...each book was five inches thick in
>> toto, and both front and back cover of each book was half an inch thick...the
>> books are on a shelf, in order...
>
> Of course, you're also expected to assume that the books were published
> in an English-speaking country. If they're from France, say, then the
> naive answer is correct.
Shelving books from more than one country can be a nuisance. To make the
spines readable, you have to store some of the books upside down.
R H Draney
>
>Mark Brader wrote:
>> R.H. Draney:
>>> There was an old puzzle that asked you to imagine a set of five heavy, bound
>>>books, volumes one to (or "through") five...each book was five inches thick in
>>>toto, and both front and back cover of each book was half an inch thick...the
>>> books are on a shelf, in order...
>>
>> Of course, you're also expected to assume that the books were published
>> in an English-speaking country. If they're from France, say, then the
>> naive answer is correct.
>
>Shelving books from more than one country can be a nuisance. To make the
>spines readable, you have to store some of the books upside down.
Or use the skills honed in tutoring students across a desk to *read* them upside
down....r
Garrett Wollman
Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.not.china> wrote:
>Shelving books from more than one country can be a nuisance. To make the
>spines readable, you have to store some of the books upside down.
What makes you say that? The French books shelved in my library have
perfectly readable spines; you just have to tilt your head the other
way.
Peter Moylan
> In article <CPmdnc-XOZ6J-mbX...@westnet.com.au>,
> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.not.china> wrote:
>
>> Shelving books from more than one country can be a nuisance. To make the
>> spines readable, you have to store some of the books upside down.
>
> What makes you say that? The French books shelved in my library have
> perfectly readable spines; you just have to tilt your head the other
> way.
Yes, but it's hard on the neck.
R H Draney
>
>Garrett Wollman wrote:
>> In article <CPmdnc-XOZ6J-mbX...@westnet.com.au>,
>> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.not.china> wrote:
>>
>>> Shelving books from more than one country can be a nuisance. To make the
>>> spines readable, you have to store some of the books upside down.
>>
>> What makes you say that? The French books shelved in my library have
>> perfectly readable spines; you just have to tilt your head the other
>> way.
>
>Yes, but it's hard on the neck.
Which, knowing the French, is likely the whole point....r
Peter Moylan
> Peter Moylan filted:
>> Garrett Wollman wrote:
>>> In article <CPmdnc-XOZ6J-mbX...@westnet.com.au>,
>>> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.not.china> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Shelving books from more than one country can be a nuisance. To make the
>>>> spines readable, you have to store some of the books upside down.
>>> What makes you say that? The French books shelved in my library have
>>> perfectly readable spines; you just have to tilt your head the other
>>> way.
>> Yes, but it's hard on the neck.
>
> Which, knowing the French, is likely the whole point....r
Je te tordrai le cou,
Je te tordrai le cou,
Et le cou, et le cou.
Mike Lyle
[...]
>
> If I do something from Monday to Thursday, I can stop at the stroke
> of midnight Thursday morning...if I do it from Monday *through*
> Thursday, I expect to spend at least the "business hours" of Thursday
> still engaged in that activity..."through" isn't as vacuous as you
> make it out to be; it simply means "to the far side of"....
OK, as long as you promise faithfully not to spell it "thru' ". But a
friend's wife briefly confused me by saying her husband was driving
through Libya: it turned out he was in Spain.
--
Mike.
R H Draney
>
>R H Draney wrote:
>[...]
>>
>> If I do something from Monday to Thursday, I can stop at the stroke
>> of midnight Thursday morning...if I do it from Monday *through*
>> Thursday, I expect to spend at least the "business hours" of Thursday
>> still engaged in that activity..."through" isn't as vacuous as you
>> make it out to be; it simply means "to the far side of"....
>[...]
>
>OK, as long as you promise faithfully not to spell it "thru' ".
That's a promise I'm afraid I can't make...sometimes U have 2 abbreviate 4
reasons of space....r