a lot of pork

[Masa]

Let me ask a question about the following sentence from a novel.

He'd gone on about what he described as exactly the right car for me: "Shabby appearance but a lot of poke under the bonnet."

(L.Deighton)

context: A car dealer's giving this pitch to an acquaintance of his.
question: Does "pork" have the meaining of "stamina"?

[Nasti J]

Is it "poke" or "pork"?

[Masa]

I checked again to make sure.

poke

[Duggy]

Poke = Power.

I don't see pork in the example.

===
= DUG.
===

[tony cooper]

On Sat, 4 Feb 2012 16:02:47 -0800 (PST), Masa <aut...@infoseek.jp>
wrote:

It seems the word should be "poke", not "pork". From context, it
means "power", but it is not a normal expression as a word for power.

In AmE, one of the definitions of "poke" is "move slowly" as in "He
was poking down the road". We "poke around" when we hang about doing
not much of anything.

Deighton is British, but I would think he would know the AmE meaning.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Rich Ulrich]

A "poke in the ribs" is what I thought of as relating to "poke"
but a natural statement would be "power" under the hood.

OCS error or lack of editing from the handwritten original
seems almost as likely as poke, if those are possibilities.

--
Rich Ulrich

[R H Draney]

tony cooper filted:

Another (regional) AmE meaning of "poke" is a type of wild salad green, similar
to mustard, and therefore rather pungent....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[the Omrud]

It's entirely normal BrE slang for "power", relating to machinery and
especially cars.

- Your car's not got much poke, has it.

--
David

[MC]

In article <d4b1j7h25mldo9jo8...@4ax.com>,

It may be a sly play on words. There is such a thing as a "poke bonnet"
- see WikiP: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poke_bonnet

--

"If you can, tell me something happy."
- Marybones

[Leslie Danks]

Indeed. Son's friend's jeep carries the following sticker:
"No smoke, no poke".

--
Les
(BrE)

[Nick Spalding]

tony cooper wrote, in <d4b1j7h25mldo9jo8...@4ax.com>
on Mon, 06 Feb 2012 23:51:25 -0500:

>On Sat, 4 Feb 2012 16:02:47 -0800 (PST), Masa <aut...@infoseek.jp>
>wrote:
>
>>Let me ask a question about the following sentence from a novel.
>>
>>He'd gone on about what he described as exactly the right car for me: "Shabby appearance but a lot of poke under the bonnet."
>>
>>(L.Deighton)
>>
>>context: A car dealer's giving this pitch to an acquaintance of his.
>>question: Does "pork" have the meaining of "stamina"?
>
>It seems the word should be "poke", not "pork". From context, it
>means "power", but it is not a normal expression as a word for power.

Not abnormal in BrE

>In AmE, one of the definitions of "poke" is "move slowly" as in "He
>was poking down the road". We "poke around" when we hang about doing
>not much of anything.
>
>Deighton is British, but I would think he would know the AmE meaning.
--

Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

I don't think it is in this case.

OED:

3. colloq. Power, esp. (in a car or other vehicle) horsepower;
strength, vigour.

1965 R. T. Bickers Hellions vi. 69 With all that extra poke
under the bonnet.
1971 C. Bonington Annapurna South Face xiv. 183 Martin and Nick
have done a terrific job [on the climb], but I think they've burnt
themselves out in doing it. We must have some real poke out in
front, and I just don't think they've got it any longer.
1979 Sunday Mail Mag. (Brisbane) 1 July 3/5, I expect you'd
prefer something with a bit more poke. A Ferrari say, or an Aston
Martin.
1986 Air Gunner Sept. 44/1, I obviously fitted in with his idea
of a British airgunner who wanted a pistol with a bit of poke.
2005 Western Morning News (Plymouth) (Nexis) 11 Mar. 14 It was
tweaked to produce a fraction more poke and drink less petrol.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[semir...@my-deja.com]

(My version)
You poke the accelerator with your foot.
The car responds immediately

[tony cooper]

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 11:34:55 +0000, Nick Spalding <spal...@iol.ie>
wrote:

>tony cooper wrote, in <d4b1j7h25mldo9jo8...@4ax.com>
> on Mon, 06 Feb 2012 23:51:25 -0500:
>
>>On Sat, 4 Feb 2012 16:02:47 -0800 (PST), Masa <aut...@infoseek.jp>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Let me ask a question about the following sentence from a novel.
>>>
>>>He'd gone on about what he described as exactly the right car for me: "Shabby appearance but a lot of poke under the bonnet."
>>>
>>>(L.Deighton)
>>>
>>>context: A car dealer's giving this pitch to an acquaintance of his.
>>>question: Does "pork" have the meaining of "stamina"?
>>
>>It seems the word should be "poke", not "pork". From context, it
>>means "power", but it is not a normal expression as a word for power.
>
>Not abnormal in BrE

I wasn't aware that it was normal usage in BrE. Even so, I am
surprised that Deighton used the expression when the meaning is almost
the opposite in AmE. Though the characters in Deighton's book are
British, Deighton expects American readership of his books.

British characters in books should use British terms, but it doesn't
seem wise for an author to have them use a term that means the
opposite of what a large number of the book's readers would understand
it to mean.

Now we have to find an instance of an American writer using "poke" to
mean "go slowly and without any power at all" in a book that the
British would be expected to read so my observation can be deprecated.

>>In AmE, one of the definitions of "poke" is "move slowly" as in "He
>>was poking down the road". We "poke around" when we hang about doing
>>not much of anything.
>>
>>Deighton is British, but I would think he would know the AmE meaning.

--

[the Omrud]

I was eating a hot curry tonight, when it occurred to me that I could
describe it as having a lot of poke.

--
David

[John Varela]

On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 08:22:20 UTC, R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net>
wrote:

> Another (regional) AmE meaning of "poke" is a type of wild salad green, similar
> to mustard, and therefore rather pungent....r

And poisonous, requiring careful preparation to make it safe.


http://www.wildmanstevebrill.com/Plants.Folder/Pokeweed.html

--
John Varela

[John Varela]

On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 08:36:13 UTC, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I've heard it used that way in AmE. That use may derive from one of
the synonyms for "poke" being "punch".

--
John Varela

[John Varela]

On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 14:12:34 UTC, tony cooper
<tony.co...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Now we have to find an instance of an American writer using "poke" to
> mean "go slowly and without any power at all" in a book that the
> British would be expected to read so my observation can be
> deprecated.

On the contrary:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3012/is_3_184/ai_n6047554/
"PT ragtop has plenty of poke"

http://www.oceanstreetvideo.com/vwtech/BoreVsStroke.htm
'The old adage "There ain't no subsitute for cubic inches" is very
true for street engines, and "the longer the stroke, the more the
poke" is what I believe in.'

--
John Varela

[Mike Lyle]

On 7 Feb 2012 19:39:22 GMT, "John Varela" <newl...@verizon.net>
wrote:

It's my painful duty to inform Hon. Members that this is probably Rey
territory. When I first heard the British use, the clear implication
was of a resonance with "poke" = "fuck". The adjective is "poky"
(NTBCW "poky").

--
Mike.

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:55:17 +0000, Mike Lyle <mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

When it comes to breeding it's not the pig in the poke that matters but
the poke in the pig.

[R H Draney]

Mike Lyle filted:

>
>On 7 Feb 2012 19:39:22 GMT, "John Varela" <newl...@verizon.net>
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 08:36:13 UTC, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>>

>>> - Your car's not got much poke, has it.
>>
>>I've heard it used that way in AmE. That use may derive from one of
>>the synonyms for "poke" being "punch".
>
>It's my painful duty to inform Hon. Members that this is probably Rey
>territory. When I first heard the British use, the clear implication
>was of a resonance with "poke" = "fuck". The adjective is "poky"
>(NTBCW "poky").

Which would mean "slow" or possibly "hesitant" in connection with a car...vide
that favorite childhood book "The Poky Little Puppy" (the moral of which seems
to be "always be the last one finished because you'll get what the others were
denied")....

Gumby's pony pal Pokey was intended to have a serious, no-nonsense demeanor,
unlike Gumby who was devil-may-care and (dare I say?) flexible....r

[Frank S]

"R H Draney" <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:jgsgj...@drn.newsguy.com...

Gus was often heard to ask Lauriedarlin for a poke. Lonesome Dove reference.

--
Frank ess

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

If you're breeding swine and buy a pig in a poke you may be
disappointed when you open it up and find that you have let the cat
out of the bag.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |You gotta know when to code,
SF Bay Area (1982-) | Know when to log out,
Chicago (1964-1982) |Know when to single step,
| Know when you're through.
evan.kir...@gmail.com |You don't write your program
| When you're sittin' at the term'nal.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |There'll be time enough for writin'
| When you're in the queue.

[Jared]

On the other hand, to give someone a poke would be to rouse them, so
the word does imply get-up-and-go to me in context, even though it is
foreign and I am not familiar with its usage per se.

--
Jared

[Mike Lyle]

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 17:44:41 -0800, Evan Kirshenbaum
<evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote:

>"Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> writes:
>
>> On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:55:17 +0000, Mike Lyle <mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>
>>>It's my painful duty to inform Hon. Members that this is probably
>>>Rey territory. When I first heard the British use, the clear
>>>implication was of a resonance with "poke" = "fuck". The adjective
>>>is "poky" (NTBCW "poky").
>>
>> When it comes to breeding it's not the pig in the poke that matters
>> but the poke in the pig.
>
>If you're breeding swine and buy a pig in a poke you may be
>disappointed when you open it up and find that you have let the cat
>out of the bag.

I've mentioned before that I actually have bought pigs in a poke, or
at any rate selected a couple of Tamworth weaners and brought them
home in a sack in the back of the station wagon. They like it: they
just settle down for a nap.

--
Mike.

[Nasti J]

On Feb 4, 6:28 pm, Masa <aut...@infoseek.jp> wrote:
> I checked again to make sure.
>
> poke

then why does the subject line say "pork" ?

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

But you didn't buy the pig *in* a poke, did you? The scam was that in
order to get such a good price, you had to pay before you opened the
bag to inspect it.

It was formerly the trick of the countrymen to substitute a cat
for a sucking pig, and bring it to market in a bag: so that he
who, without careful examination, made a hasty bargain, was said
to buy a pig in a poke, and might get a cat in a bag; and a
discovery of this cheat gave origin to the expression of letting
the cat out of the bag, as a premature and unlucky disclosure.

_The Mirror_, September 6, 1834

The latter expression appears to be a fair bit younger than the
former. I first see "let the cat out of the bag" in the April, 1760,
_London Magazine_, but "I will not buy a pig in a poke" is in a list
of "Prouerbes" in the 1629 _Remaines Concerning Brittaine: But
especially England, and the Inhabitants Thereof_.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |_Bauplan_ is just the German word
SF Bay Area (1982-) |for blueprint. Typically, one
Chicago (1964-1982) |switches languages to indicate
|profundity.
evan.kir...@gmail.com | Richard Dawkins

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Mike Lyle]

On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 23:12:21 -0800, Evan Kirshenbaum

I hope you don't really think I didn't know that. I did say "or at any
rate...brought them home in a sack".

I may say that I doubt if anybody ever did actually offer pigs for
sale, sight unseen in a sack. I'm open to evidence, of course; but I
think it's probably just a very apt trope, like many of these things.

Then again, though, I can imagine some sort of scam in which a crooked
seller switched sacks after "helpfully" wrapping the purchase so that
the mark thought he was getting the pig he'd seen - dodgy geezers used
to sell oranges like that till very recently. And a similar mindset
sells a certain computer operating system even now.

--
Mike.

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Well, this is one of those cases where Google Books doesn't go back
far enough to get to the origin. By the early seventeenth century, it
was already proverbial. It certainly sounds plausible to me. There
are other seventeenth and eighteenth century references to pigs in
pokes that have nothing to do with trickery, so it was apparently
common to carry piglets from place to place in bags. Given that a
number of other European languages have a similar saying that
translates to "buy a cat in a sack" (in Spanish, "to give a cat for a
hare") I don't see any reason to doubt the explanation.

I'll grant that the earliest substitution story I see is a bit
different:

A pig was sent the squire from Colin's farm,
Safe in a bag it hung on Cloddy's arm,
Hodge tice'd him in to drink, and while they chat,
Took out the pig, and in he slipt a cat.
Away went Cloddy--to the squire's he came--
'An't please you Sir, a present from my dame,
Our sow has litter'd--while he jabber'd thus,
Fumbling he oped the bag, and out leap'd puss;
What, says the squire, you play the wag I doubt!
Says Cloddy, zuans 'twas pig when I set out.

_The Gentleman's Magazine_, July, 1752

> Then again, though, I can imagine some sort of scam in which a
> crooked seller switched sacks after "helpfully" wrapping the
> purchase so that the mark thought he was getting the pig he'd seen -
> dodgy geezers used to sell oranges like that till very recently. And
> a similar mindset sells a certain computer operating system even
> now.

Why would somebody who brought a litter of pigs to market in bags have
to "wrap the purchase"? It's not like he would let them loose in a
crowded marketplace.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |Sorry, captain. Convenient
SF Bay Area (1982-) |technobabble levels are dangerously
Chicago (1964-1982) |low.

evan.kir...@gmail.com

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Donna Richoux]

Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Mike Lyle <mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:

[snip]

> > I may say that I doubt if anybody ever did actually offer pigs for
> > sale, sight unseen in a sack. I'm open to evidence, of course; but I
> > think it's probably just a very apt trope, like many of these
> > things.
>
> Well, this is one of those cases where Google Books doesn't go back
> far enough to get to the origin. By the early seventeenth century, it
> was already proverbial. It certainly sounds plausible to me. There
> are other seventeenth and eighteenth century references to pigs in
> pokes that have nothing to do with trickery, so it was apparently
> common to carry piglets from place to place in bags.

Yes, there is an early saying -- a simile, really -- that turns up when
pigs and pokes are searched for, but it's about writhing around, not
trickery at all.

Chaucer, _The Reeves Tale_ line 4276:
[Two characters are having a fistfight]

They walwe [wallow] as don two pigges in a poke.
An up they gon, and doun again anon...


And Sir Thomas More, _A Merrie Jest_ (1510):

Than on the grounde together rounde
With many a sadde stroke
They roule and rumble, they turne and tumble,
As pygges do in a poke.

So that is a visual element. I remember seeing a modern dance
performance years ago where the dancers were completely enclosed in
lightweight cloth bags. The resulting fluid movements, the shifting and
turning, were quite striking and strange.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux

[Mike Lyle]

On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 22:23:58 -0800, Evan Kirshenbaum

<evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Mike Lyle <mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>

[...]

>> Then again, though, I can imagine some sort of scam in which a
>> crooked seller switched sacks after "helpfully" wrapping the
>> purchase so that the mark thought he was getting the pig he'd seen -
>> dodgy geezers used to sell oranges like that till very recently. And
>> a similar mindset sells a certain computer operating system even
>> now.
>
>Why would somebody who brought a litter of pigs to market in bags have
>to "wrap the purchase"? It's not like he would let them loose in a
>crowded marketplace.

No peasant worth the straw in his mouth would buy livestock
uninspected. They wouldn't have been loose, though: weaners on sale in
a market would at the least have been in an enclosure of hurdles, or
in a wagon. I don't know how medieval markets arranged things, but I
assume the authorities in any particular place (whether the aldermen
or the feudal lord) would have provided permanent or temporary pens,
and coops for poultry.

--
Mike.

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Mike Lyle <mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:

> On Thu, 09 Feb 2012 22:23:58 -0800, Evan Kirshenbaum
> <evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Mike Lyle <mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>>
> [...]
>>> Then again, though, I can imagine some sort of scam in which a
>>> crooked seller switched sacks after "helpfully" wrapping the
>>> purchase so that the mark thought he was getting the pig he'd seen -
>>> dodgy geezers used to sell oranges like that till very recently. And
>>> a similar mindset sells a certain computer operating system even
>>> now.
>>
>>Why would somebody who brought a litter of pigs to market in bags have
>>to "wrap the purchase"? It's not like he would let them loose in a
>>crowded marketplace.
>
> No peasant worth the straw in his mouth would buy livestock
> uninspected.

Hence the notion that it's a bad idea.

> They wouldn't have been loose, though: weaners on sale in a market
> would at the least have been in an enclosure of hurdles, or in a
> wagon. I don't know how medieval markets arranged things, but I
> assume the authorities in any particular place (whether the aldermen
> or the feudal lord) would have provided permanent or temporary pens,
> and coops for poultry.

I don't assume that. I'd assume that people brought their carts or
carried their wares on pack animals and sold off of them.

But you're right. Nobody would be dumb enough to by a pig without
inspecting it, so nobody would be dumb enough to think that he could
get away with selling a cat in place of a pig. Oh? You want to buy a
pig? I just happen to have one here that my mother told me to sell.
I really want to get rid of it so that I can go to the jousting, so
I'll let you have it for half the going rate. What? Look? Do you
want to buy it or not? There are plenty of people I can sell it to.
You can see it squirm in the sack. I know what you're trying to do:
I'll let you take it out to "inspect" it and that's the last I'll ever
see of you. You give me the money, and I'll give you the pig. Deal?

It would probably work today, and I don't see any reason to believe
that people were any less gullible in the Middle Ages.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |We never met anyone who believed in
SF Bay Area (1982-) |fortune cookies. That's astounding.
Chicago (1964-1982) |Belief in the precognitive powers
|of an Asian pastry is really no
evan.kir...@gmail.com |wackier than belief in ESP,
|subluxation, or astrology, but you
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |just don't hear anyone preaching
|Scientific Cookie-ism.
| Penn and Teller

[Mike Lyle]

On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:52:13 -0800, Evan Kirshenbaum

Country folk were as efficient back then as they are today; and those
who had the valuable right to hold a market made sure they got their
fees. You can't really have an organized animal sale on any
significant scale without fences of some kind.

>
>But you're right. Nobody would be dumb enough to by a pig without
>inspecting it, so nobody would be dumb enough to think that he could
>get away with selling a cat in place of a pig. Oh? You want to buy a
>pig? I just happen to have one here that my mother told me to sell.
>I really want to get rid of it so that I can go to the jousting, so
>I'll let you have it for half the going rate. What? Look? Do you
>want to buy it or not? There are plenty of people I can sell it to.
>You can see it squirm in the sack. I know what you're trying to do:
>I'll let you take it out to "inspect" it and that's the last I'll ever
>see of you. You give me the money, and I'll give you the pig. Deal?

I'll give you four magic beans for it.

>
>It would probably work today, and I don't see any reason to believe
>that people were any less gullible in the Middle Ages.

I don't, er, buy that for a moment. Proverbial sayings and cautionary
tales aren't historical descriptions, but tropes and such-like. Jokes,
too: "Heard about the bloke from the next county? Thick bugger
reckoned he were a-buyin' a pig from one o' they crooks from the other
county..." Did a fox really say the unreachable grapes were sour?
Pretty unlikely that anybody actually cast pearls before swine. Did
anybody _really_ run the Brooklyn Bridge scam? (Actually, maybe they
did: it's not my area. I certainly bought Windows.)

--
Mike.

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

I would expect that such fees would be paid on the way in.

> You can't really have an organized animal sale on any significant
> scale without fences of some kind.

Sure, if you're talking about selling adult animals. We're talking
suckling pigs, more likely being sold as food than as livestock.

>>But you're right. Nobody would be dumb enough to by a pig without
>>inspecting it, so nobody would be dumb enough to think that he could
>>get away with selling a cat in place of a pig. Oh? You want to buy
>>a pig? I just happen to have one here that my mother told me to
>>sell. I really want to get rid of it so that I can go to the
>>jousting, so I'll let you have it for half the going rate. What?
>>Look? Do you want to buy it or not? There are plenty of people I
>>can sell it to. You can see it squirm in the sack. I know what
>>you're trying to do: I'll let you take it out to "inspect" it and
>>that's the last I'll ever see of you. You give me the money, and
>>I'll give you the pig. Deal?
>
> I'll give you four magic beans for it.

I only need one mark who thinks he's getting the best of me because
I'm anxious to sell or too dumb to know what it's worth.

>>It would probably work today, and I don't see any reason to believe
>>that people were any less gullible in the Middle Ages.
>
> I don't, er, buy that for a moment. Proverbial sayings and
> cautionary tales aren't historical descriptions, but tropes and
> such-like. Jokes, too: "Heard about the bloke from the next county?
> Thick bugger reckoned he were a-buyin' a pig from one o' they crooks
> from the other county..." Did a fox really say the unreachable
> grapes were sour? Pretty unlikely that anybody actually cast pearls
> before swine. Did anybody _really_ run the Brooklyn Bridge scam?
> (Actually, maybe they did: it's not my area. I certainly bought
> Windows.)

Yup. Again and again. From Wikipedia:

George Parker (1870-1936) was one of the most audacious con men in
American history. He made his living selling New York's public
landmarks to unwary tourists. His favorite object for sale was the
Brooklyn Bridge, which he sold twice a week for years. He
convinced his marks that they could make a fortune by controlling
access to the roadway. More than once police had to roust naive
buyers from the bridge as they tried to erect toll barriers...
Other public landmarks he sold included the original Madison
Square Garden, the Metropolitan Museum of Art, Grant's Tomb and
the Statue of Liberty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_C._Parker

William McCloundy (born 1859 or 1860), also known as I.O.U.
O'Brien, was an early 20th-century confidence trickster, from
Asbury Park, New Jersey, who served a two-and-a-half-year prison
term in Sing Sing for selling the Brooklyn Bridge to a tourist in
1901.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_McCloundy

Victor Lustig sold the Eiffel Tower for scrap. Twice. Arthur
Furguson (though Wikipedia claims there's some doubt as to his
existence) sold Big Ben, Nelson's column, and Buckingham Palace to
American torists...then moved to the US, where he sold the White House
to British tourists before being caught selling the Statue of Liberty
to Australian tourists. The information booth at Grand Central
Station was rented out for a year for $100K. Eduardo de Valfierno had
the Mona Lisa stolen...and then sold forgeries of it six times.

These cons really are run, and they really do work. Both on a large
and, even more often, on a small scale. People really do sell
worthless Rolex knock-offs to people who think they're getting a good
deal on stolen merchandise.

I don't know why anybody would doubt it these days. How many times
have you been contacted by a Nigerian prince or some similar person
who needs your help to get money out of their country. How many
lotteries have you won? Say, this week? Now imagine that "Email from
a Nigerian prince" becomes proverbial. In seven or eight hundred
years are people going to argue over whether it really happened or
whether anybody was really dumb enough to fall for it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance-fee_fraud

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |I need to get a new colander. My
SF Bay Area (1982-) |old one has holes in it.
Chicago (1964-1982)

evan.kir...@gmail.com

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Peter Moylan]

Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>
> I don't know why anybody would doubt it these days. How many times
> have you been contacted by a Nigerian prince or some similar person
> who needs your help to get money out of their country. How many
> lotteries have you won? Say, this week? Now imagine that "Email from
> a Nigerian prince" becomes proverbial. In seven or eight hundred
> years are people going to argue over whether it really happened or
> whether anybody was really dumb enough to fall for it?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance-fee_fraud
>

I wish I'd kept a copy of our local newspaper from some time in the past
week. It detailed the story of a doctor -- a highly educated man -- who
spent over two million dollars on a dating agency before starting to
suspect that he wasn't going to get a date.

In his ruling on the case, the judge said something like "Clearly a
fraud has been committed, and this is not changed by the almost
unbelievable gullibility of the victim."

That reminds me of the numerous cases of the property developers,
investment counsellors, and the like, who keep coming before the courts
after mishandling their clients' funds. Almost invariably it turns out
that the person charged has a record of doing the same thing in the
past. A mugger who steals a hundred dollars will, if caught, probably
get a jail term. If you steal millions of dollars, though, that puts it
into the category of "white collar crime". The perpetrators are
considered to be a cut above the riff-raff who sleep on the streets, so
they get much lighter penalties. And, once declared bankrupt, they can
move to a different state and change their names.

(If you steal the life savings of thousands of people, that puts you
into an even better category: "too big to fail", and therefore entitled
to massive government subsidies.)

--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

[Peter Brooks]

On Feb 12, 5:33 am, Peter Moylan <inva...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid>
wrote:

>
>
> (If you steal the life savings of thousands of people, that puts you
> into an even better category: "too big to fail", and therefore entitled
> to massive government subsidies.)
>

Not, fortunately, always, Bernard Madoff has something like 148 years
left of his jail sentence - you'd expect him to be let out after 100
years for good behaviour, if he doesn't steal from the other inmates,
that is.

Those who got Mr Madoff so rich were, though, also very gullible and
very greedy.

[Mike Lyle]

On Sat, 11 Feb 2012 16:55:31 -0800, Evan Kirshenbaum

Well, the further degree I didn't finish was in Medieval literature,
not Medieval history; but if anybody's charging, the arrangements had
better work at any period.

>> You can't really have an organized animal sale on any significant
>> scale without fences of some kind.
>
>Sure, if you're talking about selling adult animals. We're talking
>suckling pigs, more likely being sold as food than as livestock.

Even if sucking pigs didn't have to be sold privately, and to the
wealthy, at that, the sack idea just doesn't fly. Of course nothing's
impossible, but the figure-of-speech idea has no problems. And no,
weaner pigs, lambs, calves, kids would always feature in markets: it
isn't just about mature beasts.

There you go: city folks are plain dumb.

--
Mike.

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Okay, you're obviously better acquainted with the field than I am, so
I'll have to defer to others.

Retailers were generally poorer and less influential than
wholesaling merchants, and often processed their own goods, sold
them from shop fronts, stalls or moveable carts, or hawked them in
the streets. On market day, simple timber stalls were erected in
the marketplace, though over time some became more permanent in
style and structure, encroaching upon the public space. Those
without a stall would carry goods in baskets, either wandering
around the marketplace or standing in designated areas.

James Davis, _Medieval Market Morality: Life,
Law and Ethics in the English Marketplace,
1200-1500_, 2012

Medieval writers generally considered the sinful temptations
associated with market trade to be rampant and rarely avoidable by
a fallible mankind. The marketplace itself was depicted as a
highly competitive forum in which axaggeration and fraud were
expected on a daily basis: 'It is in the nature of a marketplace
that everything is sold and bought there and that the sellers and
buyers cheat each other'. A Lollard sermon of the fifteenth
century similarly described the market 'in which is miche [much]
byinge and sellynge and deceite of hire breşeren as custummabli
falleş in such places'... The sins of buying and selling, as
outlined by medieval moralists, can be summarised as: ... False
Wares--selling a different and inferior article from that first
bargained for ...

_ibid, pp. 54-5.

Davis doesn't mention this particular scam, but it doesn't sound out
of place with the other ones he talks about.

They are, but mostly these sorts of scams are pulled on out-of-
towners. It's harder to get away with it in a rural setting, because
the people you try it on are likely to know you. In the city, there
are always strangers.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |If only some crazy scientist
SF Bay Area (1982-) |somewhere would develop a device
Chicago (1964-1982) |that would allow us to change the
|channel on our televisions......
evan.kir...@gmail.com | --"lazarus"

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Mike Lyle]

On Sun, 12 Feb 2012 15:52:57 -0800, Evan Kirshenbaum

Well, the quotation (for which, thanks: I'd like to read him if I live
long enough) doesn't mention livestock, either. This could go on; but
I fancy we've reached the point of fruitlessness. I'm sure you, too,
are tickled by the irony of an argument about the truthlikeness of an
apocryphal folk-tale about credulity.
[...]
--
Mike.