Dear Sir : or Dear Sir , What is the difference?
linhth...@gmail.com
I am wondering which I should use at the beginning of a formal letter:
1. Dear Mr. Bean, (the comma after Mr. Bean)
or
2. Dear Mr. Bean: (the colon after Mr. Bean).
Thanks
dontbother
Use the colon at the beginning of a formal letter, especially when you
don't know the person you're writing to. It's merely a formal writing
convention, but some people pay attention to those nitpicky little
details and form their opinions of you based on such inconsequential
cues. After the first letter, you can follow the convention, comma or
colon, Mr Bean uses when addressing you.
--
Franke: EFL teacher and medical editor
Posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/hush.ai
It's all in the way you say it, innit?
Salvatore Volatile
In American usage, it depends on whether it's a so-called "business
letter" or a personal letter. In business letters, a colon is used; in
personal letters a comma. It's not so much a matter of formality in these
latter days, since many business letters are informal in tone, but
the colon is still conventional and a comma dead wrong.
In British usage, I think the rule is to dispense with punctuation
altogether. The few British letters I've seen that had punctuation
used a comma even though they were business letters.
--
Salvatore Volatile
Stephen Calder
There's no one correct way. The comma would be more usual these days,
but even that may be dispensed with.
Up to you.
--
Stephen
Lennox Head, Australia
Stephen Calder
> linhth...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>>Dear members:
>>
>>I am wondering which I should use at the beginning of a formal letter:
>>
>>1. Dear Mr. Bean, (the comma after Mr. Bean)
>>
>>or
>>
>>2. Dear Mr. Bean: (the colon after Mr. Bean).
>
>
> Use the colon at the beginning of a formal letter, especially when you
> don't know the person you're writing to. It's merely a formal writing
> convention, but some people pay attention to those nitpicky little
> details and form their opinions of you based on such inconsequential
> cues. After the first letter, you can follow the convention, comma or
> colon, Mr Bean uses when addressing you.
>
>
A colon would seem awfully stiff, old-fashioned or American to an
Australian.
When the bank writes to me, I'm lucky to get a comma.
It was always without fail addressed to "Dear Mr Calder" but these days
"Dear Stephen Calder" is just as common.
Jonathan Morton
> linhth...@gmail.com wrote:
>> I am wondering which I should use at the beginning of a formal letter:
>>
>> 1. Dear Mr. Bean, (the comma after Mr. Bean)
>>
>> or
>>
>> 2. Dear Mr. Bean: (the colon after Mr. Bean).
>
> altogether. The few British letters I've seen that had punctuation
> used a comma even though they were business letters.
That's correct. Even in the days when a comma was common in British
usage - and that is a fair few years ago now - I never saw a colon.
British usage has also for some years avoided the comma in expressions
such as "yours sincerely" and the like - as exemplified in my usual
signature for these posts. It's in the same league as "two spaces or
one" after a full stop.
Regards
Jonathan
Alan Jones
In the UK, a handwritten letter would probably have the traditional comma. A
typed letter might have either comma or colon, or , as Stephen suggests, no
punctuation at all. In so far as there is a British standard, it is to omit
all punctuation outside the body of the letter, for instance in addresses,
and also in abbreviations: so PhD, not Ph.D., and so on.
Alan Jones
R H Draney
In e-mail, omit both and just begin:
Hi!
....r
--
All people are exactly alike.
This is known as "diversity".
the Omrud
I have never seen a colon used at the beginning of a UK letter - I
would class it as Dead Wrong. Comma is normal.
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the
Mike Barnes
Dear linhthanh2006
In British usage, neither. Nothing after Mr Bean. Nothing after Mr, come
to that.
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
dontbother
We Americans are awfully stiff and old-fashioned when it comes to grammar
and writing, and I, for one, would like to see that it stays that way.
Peter Moylan
I prefer the comma myself, but I believe that people's preferences
depend on age and country of origin. In other words, either form is
acceptable somewhere in the world.
Perhaps I should add that I would not write to Mr Bean in the first
place, because his reactions to receiving a letter are sometimes
unpredictable.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain
eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer
reliably receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses.
The optusnet address still has about 3 months of life left.
Peter Duncanson
wrote:
I agree. It was a surprise to me, in my fifties at the time, to
learn that a colon was used in AmE.
--
Peter Duncanson
UK (posting from a.u.e)
the Omrud
Then I'm ahead of you in my learning - I've still got three days to
go to my 50s.
Nick Spalding
on Sat, 27 May 2006 13:36:09 +0100:
I'm 74 and I have never encountered it other than in this thread.
--
Nick Spalding
Wood Avens
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>On Sat, 27 May 2006 09:20:05 GMT, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>>I have never seen a colon used at the beginning of a UK letter - I
>>would class it as Dead Wrong. Comma is normal.
>
>I agree. It was a surprise to me, in my fifties at the time, to
>learn that a colon was used in AmE.
It's still a surprise to me, because I'd never come across it till the
beginning of this thread. And that surprises me, too.
--
Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
Peter Duncanson
wrote:
>I've still got three days to
>go to my 50s.
I was about to say "after 50 it's downhill all the way", but what
actually is the meaning of "downhill all the way"?
It is sometimes seems to mean that "things get progressively
easier", and other times that "things get progressively worse".
dontbother
> the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I've still got three days to
>>go to my 50s.
>
> I was about to say "after 50 it's downhill all the way", but what
> actually is the meaning of "downhill all the way"?
>
> It is sometimes seems to mean that "things get progressively
> easier", and other times that "things get progressively worse".
My step-mother says it means that you wake up with a new pain every
morning.
the Omrud
> On Sat, 27 May 2006 13:23:54 GMT, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I've still got three days to
> >go to my 50s.
>
> I was about to say "after 50 it's downhill all the way", but what
> actually is the meaning of "downhill all the way"?
>
> It is sometimes seems to mean that "things get progressively
> easier", and other times that "things get progressively worse".
It doesn't matter - it's probably both.
Peter Duncanson
wrote:
>Peter Duncanson <ma...@peterduncanson.net> had it:
>
>> On Sat, 27 May 2006 13:23:54 GMT, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >I've still got three days to
>> >go to my 50s.
>>
>> I was about to say "after 50 it's downhill all the way", but what
>> actually is the meaning of "downhill all the way"?
>>
>> It is sometimes seems to mean that "things get progressively
>> easier", and other times that "things get progressively worse".
>
>It doesn't matter - it's probably both.
Yes. The third of two meanings.
Salvatore Volatile
> On Sat, 27 May 2006 13:36:09 +0100, Peter Duncanson
><ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 27 May 2006 09:20:05 GMT, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>
>>>I have never seen a colon used at the beginning of a UK letter - I
>>>would class it as Dead Wrong. Comma is normal.
>>
>>I agree. It was a surprise to me, in my fifties at the time, to
>>learn that a colon was used in AmE.
>
> It's still a surprise to me, because I'd never come across it till the
> beginning of this thread. And that surprises me, too.
It would be interesting to know when this convention took root, so to say.
Did it have something to do with the invention of the typewriter? I can't
think of any reason why, but maybe Erk has some ideas, or can do some
research.
My intuition or common sense tells me that the colon wouldn't have been
popular when letters were still handwritten. That could explain the
personal/business distinction that exists in AmE. When the typewriter was
adopted by businesses, styles for typewritten and handwritten letters
diverged, perhaps, and those categories tended to map roughly to business
and personal.
--
Salvatore Volatile
Tony Cooper
<dontb...@mushmail.mom> wrote:
>Peter Duncanson <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>> the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I've still got three days to
>>>go to my 50s.
>>
>> I was about to say "after 50 it's downhill all the way", but what
>> actually is the meaning of "downhill all the way"?
>>
>> It is sometimes seems to mean that "things get progressively
>> easier", and other times that "things get progressively worse".
>
>My step-mother says it means that you wake up with a new pain every
>morning.
I know a guy like that. Ever since his divorce he's been waking up
with a new pain every morning. At least he's good at pulling 'em.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
Arcadian Rises
Not really. The second half of the century it's a lot easier than the
first.
Robert Bannister
> Stephen Calder <cal...@in.com.au> wrote:
>
>
>>dontbother wrote:
>>
>>
>>>linhth...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Dear members:
>>>>
>>>>I am wondering which I should use at the beginning of a formal letter:
>>>>
>>>>1. Dear Mr. Bean, (the comma after Mr. Bean)
>>>>
>>>>or
>>>>
>>>>2. Dear Mr. Bean: (the colon after Mr. Bean).
>>>
>>>
>>>Use the colon at the beginning of a formal letter, especially when you
>>>don't know the person you're writing to. It's merely a formal writing
>>>convention, but some people pay attention to those nitpicky little
>>>details and form their opinions of you based on such inconsequential
>>>cues. After the first letter, you can follow the convention, comma or
>>>colon, Mr Bean uses when addressing you.
>>
>>A colon would seem awfully stiff, old-fashioned or American to an
>>Australian.
>>
>>When the bank writes to me, I'm lucky to get a comma.
>>
>>It was always without fail addressed to "Dear Mr Calder" but these days
>>"Dear Stephen Calder" is just as common.
>
>
> We Americans are awfully stiff and old-fashioned when it comes to grammar
> and writing, and I, for one, would like to see that it stays that way.
>
The point is, the original poster should have stated which version of
English was required. I don't know whether colons ever were used in
other-than-American English, but they certainly have not been used in my
lifetime, and I would find the presence of one very odd.
--
Rob Bannister
Salvatore Volatile
>I am wondering which I should use at the beginning of a formal letter:
>
>1. Dear Mr. Bean, (the comma after Mr. Bean)
>
>or
>
>2. Dear Mr. Bean: (the colon after Mr. Bean).
Franke wrote:
> Use the colon at the beginning of a formal letter, especially when you
> don't know the person you're writing to. It's merely a formal writing
> convention, but some people pay attention to those nitpicky little
> details and form their opinions of you based on such inconsequential
> cues. After the first letter, you can follow the convention, comma or
> colon, Mr Bean uses when addressing you.
> We Americans are awfully stiff and old-fashioned when it comes to grammar
> and writing, and I, for one, would like to see that it stays that way.
Rob Bannister (No Relation) wrote:
> The point is, the original poster should have stated which version of
> English was required.
It should have been obvious that the OP was interested in AmE, for he or
she wrote "Mr. Bean", not "Mr Bean".>
--
Salvatore Volatile
Peter Moylan
> Rob Bannister (No Relation) wrote:
>> The point is, the original poster should have stated which version of
>> English was required.
>
> It should have been obvious that the OP was interested in AmE, for he or
> she wrote "Mr. Bean", not "Mr Bean".>
I didn't realise that Americans even knew about Mr Bean.
Peter Moylan
> On Sat, 27 May 2006 15:08:48 +0000 (UTC), dontbother
> <dontb...@mushmail.mom> wrote:
>
>> Peter Duncanson <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>>> the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've still got three days to go to my 50s.
>>> I was about to say "after 50 it's downhill all the way", but what
>>> actually is the meaning of "downhill all the way"?
>>>
>>> It is sometimes seems to mean that "things get progressively
>>> easier", and other times that "things get progressively worse".
>> My step-mother says it means that you wake up with a new pain every
>> morning.
If something doesn't hurt when you wake up, you'll know that you died
during the night.
> I know a guy like that. Ever since his divorce he's been waking up
> with a new pain every morning. At least he's good at pulling 'em.
I know the type. Never been to bed with an ugly woman, but he's woken up
with quite a few.
the Omrud
> Salvatore Volatile wrote:
>
> > Rob Bannister (No Relation) wrote:
> >> The point is, the original poster should have stated which version of
> >> English was required.
> >
> > It should have been obvious that the OP was interested in AmE, for he or
> > she wrote "Mr. Bean", not "Mr Bean".>
>
> I didn't realise that Americans even knew about Mr Bean.
Many Americans believe the height of UK TV is summed up by Mr Bean
and Benny Hill.
Jonathan Morton
> It should have been obvious that the OP was interested in AmE, for he or
> she wrote "Mr. Bean", not "Mr Bean".>
Nice try, but (unlike that colon, which I'm sure has never been used in
this way in BrE) the full stop after abbreviations (such as "Mr", "Mrs",
and - in theory - "Miss" [1]) has only relatively recently disappeared.
I attempted to insist on it as recently as the mid-1990s when using my
initials - to no avail.
I don't think I've ever seen "Ms." in BrE, because the people who would
use the full stop wouldn't be seen dead using "Ms". Do AmE users who use
"Miss" put a full stop after it, incidentally?
Regards
Jonathan
dontbother
[...]
> Do AmE users who use "Miss" put a full stop after it, incidentally?
Get sirius, dude!
Peter Moylan
> I don't think I've ever seen "Ms." in BrE, because the people who
> would use the full stop wouldn't be seen dead using "Ms". Do AmE
> users who use "Miss" put a full stop after it, incidentally?
That could create confusion, because "Mrs" and "Miss" are abbreviations
of the same word: Mistress. It's less confusing to forget about the
abbreviation "Miss.", and act instead as if "Miss" were a full word in
its own right; which it is, by now.
"Ms." with a period wouldn't work in either BrE or AmE, because it's not
an abbreviation for anything. Unless, of course, one insists that it's a
combination of "Mrs." and "Miss.", in which case "Ms." would have to be
yet another abbreviation for "Mistress".
Jonathan Morton
> Jonathan Morton wrote:
>
>> I don't think I've ever seen "Ms." in BrE, because the people who
>> would use the full stop wouldn't be seen dead using "Ms". Do AmE users
>> who use "Miss" put a full stop after it, incidentally?
>
> That could create confusion, because "Mrs" and "Miss" are abbreviations
> of the same word: Mistress. It's less confusing to forget about the
> abbreviation "Miss.", and act instead as if "Miss" were a full word in
> its own right; which it is, by now.
That's certainly been my take on it - I just wondered how others felt.
Regards
Jonathan
Salvatore Volatile
> Salvatore Volatile wrote:
>
>> Rob Bannister (No Relation) wrote:
>>> The point is, the original poster should have stated which version of
>>> English was required.
>>
>> It should have been obvious that the OP was interested in AmE, for he or
>> she wrote "Mr. Bean", not "Mr Bean".>
>
> I didn't realise that Americans even knew about Mr Bean.
The show was shown here for a while, I think on PBS stations along with
certain Britcoms. I watched it a few times; I didn't really like it.
--
Salvatore Volatile
Salvatore Volatile
> Many Americans believe the height of UK TV is summed up by Mr Bean
> and Benny Hill.
Ah good...
Let's see: shows we can say are bad are: Mr Bean, Benny Hill, and Keeping
Up Appearances ... any others?
--
Salvatore Volatile
Salvatore Volatile
> Salvatore Volatile wrote:
>
>> It should have been obvious that the OP was interested in AmE, for he or
>> she wrote "Mr. Bean", not "Mr Bean".>
>
> Nice try, but (unlike that colon, which I'm sure has never been used in
> this way in BrE) the full stop after abbreviations (such as "Mr", "Mrs",
> and - in theory - "Miss" [1]) has only relatively recently disappeared.
You sure? I've seen "Mr" in Britic-printed books from a century or so
ago. The more general eschewing of all punctuation that is such a marked
feature of postwar British life is, I'll grant you, more recent.
> Do AmE users who use
> "Miss" put a full stop after it, incidentally?
Never, but few people use "Miss" these days.
Incidentally, when the UK was transitioning towards punctuationless usage
in, whatever, the 1950s or 1960s, didn't anyone object to this? Just
curious.
--
Salvatore Volatile
Numeromania
>
> In American usage, it depends on whether it's a so-called "business
> letter" or a personal letter. In business letters, a colon is used; in
> personal letters a comma. It's not so much a matter of formality in these
> latter days, since many business letters are informal in tone, but
> the colon is still conventional and a comma dead wrong.
>
> In British usage, I think the rule is to dispense with punctuation
> altogether. The few British letters I've seen that had punctuation
> used a comma even though they were business letters.
Do you know when that change started? I've always noticed the trend
towards simplification in British English. Over the years, I observed
that typed letters stopped having any indentation and that periods (or
full stops) became consistently omitted from abbreviations and
initialisms. It's only relatively recently that I discovered the
elimination of punctuations in the salutation and the closing of typed
letters.
I wonder how the change got started and how it propagated. Does anyone know?
Alan Jones
How started, I don't know. The dotless layout has been propagated by use in
official documents and, or so I suppose, by training given to secretarial
staff in the Civil Service and major business firms. It started long after I
had to study the Royal Air Force "Manual of Service English" in the
mid-1950s, and perhaps at first was a typographical preference in magazines
and newspapers. As you've observed, it's now standard. I would guess that
the possessive apostrophe will be the next "dot" to disappear: it's already
gone from most signs, esepcially those in upper-case: VISITORS ENTRANCE and
so on. Perhaps eventually the residual apostrophe (misplaced, of course)
will be confined to greengrocers' notices.
Alan Jones
Salvatore Volatile
> Salvatore Volatile wrote:
>>
>> altogether. The few British letters I've seen that had punctuation
>> used a comma even though they were business letters.
>
> Do you know when that change started?
The Brits would know more, but my sense of it is that it began around the
late 'Fifties or early 'Sixties.
> I've always noticed the trend
> towards simplification in British English. Over the years, I observed
> that typed letters stopped having any indentation and that periods (or
> full stops) became consistently omitted from abbreviations and
> initialisms. It's only relatively recently that I discovered the
> elimination of punctuations in the salutation and the closing of typed
> letters.
>
> I wonder how the change got started and how it propagated. Does anyone know?
It's been suggested that it was a sort of austerity measure imposed by
H.M. Civil Service that got propagated to the larger UK society, but I
don't know.
I again ask why there was no outcry -- or was there? The British are, in
matters stylistic, extremely conservative in many respects, it seems to
this American.
--
Salvatore Volatile
Wood Avens
<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>Jonathan Morton wrote:
>> Do AmE users who use
>> "Miss" put a full stop after it, incidentally?
>
>Never, but few people use "Miss" these days.
It's used in BrE in primary schools to and about teachers of the
female persuasion, as in "Ooh, Miss, me, Miss, I know that!" and
"Please, Miss, may I be excused?" and "Well, Miss said ...".
It also continues to be used of historical personages. We visited
Waddesdon Manor on Thursday and learnt about "Miss Alice's Rules".
Miss Alice was the sister of Baron Ferdinand Rothschild, who built
Waddesdon in the late 19th century. She took the house over when he
died, and she laid down some pretty rigorous rules about the
conservation of the collection it houses. ("When handling the Sèvres,
use two hands, and no talking.") Apparently Miss Alice's Rules were
later adopted throughout National Trust properties, and are in force
to this day.
LFS
> Numeromania wrote:
>
>>Salvatore Volatile wrote:
>>
>>>In British usage, I think the rule is to dispense with punctuation
>>>altogether. The few British letters I've seen that had punctuation
>>>used a comma even though they were business letters.
>>
>>Do you know when that change started?
>
>
> The Brits would know more, but my sense of it is that it began around the
> late 'Fifties or early 'Sixties.
>
>
>>I've always noticed the trend
>>towards simplification in British English. Over the years, I observed
>>that typed letters stopped having any indentation and that periods (or
>>full stops) became consistently omitted from abbreviations and
>>initialisms. It's only relatively recently that I discovered the
>>elimination of punctuations in the salutation and the closing of typed
>>letters.
>>
>>I wonder how the change got started and how it propagated. Does anyone know?
>
>
> It's been suggested that it was a sort of austerity measure imposed by
> H.M. Civil Service that got propagated to the larger UK society, but I
> don't know.
I think it's been discussed here before. Mr Dean probably has chapter
and verse.
>
> I again ask why there was no outcry -- or was there? The British are, in
> matters stylistic, extremely conservative in many respects, it seems to
> this American.
>
I think that people wrote fewer formal letters as the telephone became
more widely used and letter-writing conventions were no longer taught.
Although in the UK we often think of Americans as being far more
informal, my impression from business communication is that this is not
at all the case. I have recently been reading documents setting out
responses to two consultations about proposed policy initiatives, one in
the UK and one in the US. The US style seems to be considerably more
formal and standardised.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Salvatore Volatile
> On Sun, 28 May 2006 09:56:16 +0000 (UTC), Salvatore Volatile
><m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>Never, but few people use "Miss" these days.
>
> It's used in BrE in primary schools to and about teachers of the
> female persuasion, as in "Ooh, Miss, me, Miss, I know that!" and
> "Please, Miss, may I be excused?" and "Well, Miss said ...".
Yes, that's a known pondianism. Apparently in AusE "Miss" is so used too.
And male teachers are addressed as "Sir", FWIU.
The Southern US uses of "Miss [Forename]" and "Miz [Surname]" (do I have
that right?) might still be current.
--
Salvatore Volatile
Wood Avens
<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>Numeromania wrote:
>> Do you know when that change started?
>
>The Brits would know more, but my sense of it is that it began around the
>late 'Fifties or early 'Sixties.
I underwent secretarial training (at Pitmans in London) in 1964, and
the comma after the salutation, the paragraph indentations and the
periods after abbreviations were all still standard then.
[snip]
>
>I again ask why there was no outcry -- or was there? The British are, in
>matters stylistic, extremely conservative in many respects, it seems to
>this American.
Looking American and "modern" was quite fashionable in the 60s. Brit
culture in general was undergoing a post-war revolution. Perhaps it
was an easy way to indicate that you were a go-ahead,
forward-thinking, innovative business rather than an old-fashioned
stick-in-the-mud fuddy-duddy one.
Certainly no secretary was going to complain about fewer key-strokes.
R H Draney
>
>I didn't realise that Americans even knew about Mr Bean.
Oh, sure...he's that fellow for whom the Brits claim "innovations" that Ernie
Kovacs was doing thirty-five years earlier....r
--
It's the crack on the wall and the stain on the cup that gets to you
in the very end...every cat has its fall when it runs out of luck,
so you can do with a touch of zen...cause when you're screwed,
you're screwed...and when it's blue, it's blue.
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>Peter Moylan <pe...@DIESPAMMERSozebelg.org> had it:
There is a split on that here. Many Americans do like Mr Bean, but
abhor Benny Hill. I never found either to be worth watching, but I
don't think they are comparable. Bean just didn't do it for me. Hill
was stupid.
They are currently running "The Thick of It" here. I really haven't
been able to get into that, either. BBBA bleeps out the f-word, so
the sound track is one almost-continuous bleep. It's so distracting
that it ruins the show. It's obvious, though, that this show is no
"Yes, Minister".
linhth...@gmail.com
popular in AmE usage?
Peter Moylan
>> Many Americans believe the height of UK TV is summed up by Mr Bean
>> and Benny Hill.
>
> There is a split on that here. Many Americans do like Mr Bean, but
> abhor Benny Hill. I never found either to be worth watching, but I
> don't think they are comparable. Bean just didn't do it for me.
> Hill was stupid.
I watched Benny Hill on American PBS in 1980, and it was a disaster. To
begin with, they were showing material that was several years old, and
the anachronisms were mildy disorienting. But that wasn't the worst of
it. The worst of it was that we didn't get to watch the original shows,
only edited versions. Long skits were broken up into short sections, in
the style of Laugh-In, and moved about at random. The punch-line of a
joke would come a couple of weeks before the setup. The whole thing was
redesigned for people with an attention span of 20 seconds.
If I'd been Benny Hill, I'd have sued those censors for damaging his
reputation. Nothing even remotely intelligent remained. Subtle humour
was deleted or disguised. It was a complete mess.
Benny Hill hasn't been shown on Australia television for about the last
twenty years. He stopped making new shows when he died. If it's still
being shown in the USA, it must look awfully old-fashioned.
Mr Bean is newer - I think he was still producing new material 5-10
years ago - but it appeals only to a certain sense of humour. I'm not
surprised if many people fail to understand his style.
Robert Bannister
Good point/full stop/period.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
Currently showing in Australia is the worst British comedy I have seen
in years. Since I only watched about 15 minutes of the first episode,
I'm not sure of the title (All the Power?), but it seems to demonstrate
once again that some British audiences only need a whiff of
homosexuality to start giggling. If there is any other "humour" in this
show, I must have missed it.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> Jonathan Morton wrote:
>
>> I don't think I've ever seen "Ms." in BrE, because the people who
>> would use the full stop wouldn't be seen dead using "Ms". Do AmE users
>> who use "Miss" put a full stop after it, incidentally?
>
>
> That could create confusion, because "Mrs" and "Miss" are abbreviations
> of the same word: Mistress. It's less confusing to forget about the
> abbreviation "Miss.", and act instead as if "Miss" were a full word in
> its own right; which it is, by now.
>
> "Ms." with a period wouldn't work in either BrE or AmE, because it's not
> an abbreviation for anything. Unless, of course, one insists that it's a
> combination of "Mrs." and "Miss.", in which case "Ms." would have to be
> yet another abbreviation for "Mistress".
>
One of my former colleagues was quite disappointed when the Education
Department changed her title, Assistant Mistress on Probation. She was
quite proud of it.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
I can't say I ever really noticed it. If some person suddenly announced
"We're not using full stops anymore", it must have passed me by. I think
that, at some point, I must have realised that I had been reading
full-stop-less writing for some time and that it looked considerably
less ugly, and I suppose I gradually adopted it myself without making a
conscious decision.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> Yes, that's a known pondianism. Apparently in AusE "Miss" is so used too.
> And male teachers are addressed as "Sir", FWIU.
Wrong. School students use the teacher's name Miss Soandso, Mrs Soandso,
though the tendency is prefer Miss. A few young, trendy teachers
encourage the use of their first name, which seems weird to me, but each
to his/her own. Most of the kids in my classes used to call me Mr B.
New immigrants from Britain stand out like a sore thumb with their
continual use of "Sir" or "Miss", but they soon learn.
--
Rob Bannister
Skitt
> Benny Hill hasn't been shown on Australia television for about the
> last twenty years. He stopped making new shows when he died.
That happens all too often. No perseverance.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
Robert Bannister
> Although in the UK we often think of Americans as being far more
> informal, my impression from business communication is that this is not
> at all the case. I have recently been reading documents setting out
> responses to two consultations about proposed policy initiatives, one in
> the UK and one in the US. The US style seems to be considerably more
> formal and standardised.
>
And this has been reinforced by comment in this forum from a number of
contributors: not just colons, but the setting out of the addresses and
the opening salutations have all been mentioned as must-dos.
--
Rob Bannister
Peter Moylan
> Currently showing in Australia is the worst British comedy I have
> seen in years. Since I only watched about 15 minutes of the first
> episode, I'm not sure of the title (All the Power?), but it seems to
> demonstrate once again that some British audiences only need a whiff
> of homosexuality to start giggling. If there is any other "humour" in
> this show, I must have missed it.
I haven't seen this one - all too often I've been caught out by new
"comedies" that aren't funny - but we do seem to have been invaded
lately by the real dregs of British comedy. "Ali G" and "The Kumars at
No 69" are almost completely devoid of humour. "Little Britain" has its
funny moments, but it's so cringeworthy that I gave up on it. The days
of The Two Ronnies and Monty Python and Dave Allen are long over.
It's possible that I'm losing my sense of humour, but I doubt it. What
is happening, I believe, is a divergence between cultures. British and
Irish and Australian tastes in comedy used to be similar, but we've all
moved on. British comedians are targeting the sort of audience that
doesn't exist in Australia, and vice versa.
On top of that, Australia doesn't produce much decent comedy any more.
Things like Aunty Jack and the Comedy Debates could, I think, have found
a good audience in Britain at the time, but they were ABC productions
and the ABC has run out of money. Some of the commercial stations are
still trying, but the commercial stations aren't going to depart from
their tradition of concentrating on crap. It's reaching the point where
the high point of Australian commercial comedy is "Australia's Corniest
Home Videos", where we can all laugh at the discomfort of people who
injure themselves; The Three Stooges with the funny parts deleted, so to
speak. The best part of the show is the way the presenter dresses, but
cleavage on an airhead somehow lacks the appeal of cleavage on an
intelligent woman.
Salvatore Volatile
> Please clarify the difference between "Mr.Bean" and "Mr Bean". Which is
> popular in AmE usage?
I don't think _Mr Bean_ was ever popular in the US, but if you're talking
about style here, in AmE "Mr. Bean" is standard, and indeed those
unfamiliar with BrE+ usage would consider "Mr Bean" to be incorrect.
--
Salvatore Volatile
Salvatore Volatile
> Salvatore Volatile wrote:
>
>
>> Yes, that's a known pondianism. Apparently in AusE "Miss" is so used too.
>> And male teachers are addressed as "Sir", FWIU.
>
> Wrong. School students use the teacher's name Miss Soandso, Mrs Soandso,
> though the tendency is prefer Miss.
When I was in elementary school it was the opposite. We tended to use
"Mrs. Soandso" even in cases where the teacher was actually a Miss. Today
this must no longer be an issue. I had a student teacher in first grade
(1974-1975) who used Ms., which was new but not exactly shocking at the
time, I think.
--
Salvatore Volatile
Neil Gerace
"Salvatore Volatile" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:e5dkps$7s8$2...@news.wss.yale.edu...
In 1976 I addressed my grade 2 English teacher as Ms Penta. She was American
and the first person I met who insisted on it.
JF
Moylan <pe...@DIESPAMMERSozebelg.org> writes of Benny Hill:
> He stopped making new shows when he died.
Golly
Alan Jones
In one boys' school where I taught in the 1960s, the peculiar rule was for
women teachers to be addressed as "Sir". There isn't any available
single-word alternative in BrE except "Miss", which was barred because it
was thought childish. For some reason "Ma'am", which I believe was/is used
in US schools, has never caught on in British schools. These days I'd expect
the surname - "Mrs Smith" or such. "Ms" and "Miss" are pronounced much the
same, so I can't tell which is being used, but I think "Ms" [miz] is
unusual. When I retired, "Sir" for male teachers was still common, but
individual pupils didn't like its air of subservience and used "Mr Jones".
Colleagues who had doctorates were for instance "Doc Harris" (who taught
maths), or - from senior boys - just "Doc". Occasionally a boy who was too
engrossed in his work to remember where he was called out "Dad, what does
this mean?", and once I was "Skip" to a boy who must have thought he was at
Scouts; the others were remarkably tolerant of these lapses. I suppose if I
returned to the classroom I'd now be "Gramps".
Am I right in thinking that pupils/students in US schools are addressed by
teachers as e.g. "Mr Smith"?
Alan Jones
Jonathan Morton
> Peter Moylan wrote:
["Miss"]
> One of my former colleagues was quite disappointed when the Education
> Department changed her title, Assistant Mistress on Probation. She was
> quite proud of it.
Sounds a bit too S&M for my taste :-)
I'd say "Miss" and "Mrs" are definitely making a comeback in the UK. My
20-year-old daughter always styles herself "Miss", and regards "Ms" as
an abomination.
Regards
Jonathan
the Omrud
> the Omrud wrote:
> > Many Americans believe the height of UK TV is summed up by Mr Bean
> > and Benny Hill.
>
> Ah good...
>
> Let's see: shows we can say are bad are: Mr Bean, Benny Hill, and Keeping
> Up Appearances ... any others?
Well, yes, plenty, but a) I don't watch bad TV and b) I don't know
what yo'all receive over there.
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the
the Omrud
> Currently showing in Australia is the worst British comedy I have seen
> in years. Since I only watched about 15 minutes of the first episode,
> I'm not sure of the title (All the Power?), but it seems to demonstrate
> once again that some British audiences only need a whiff of
> homosexuality to start giggling. If there is any other "humour" in this
> show, I must have missed it.
"Absolute Power"? That's a splendid effort of quiet, understated
English writing, but it's not a laugh-out-loud comedy - I would class
it more as a comedy drama. It transferred from BBC radio as many
similar programmes do (it's far cheaper to make radio programmes).
If there's any whiff of homosexuality in it, I haven't noticed. One
of the main actors is gay in real life but that's got nothing to do
with the story in which he is a notorious womaniser.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_Power_(comedy)
the Omrud
> Robert Bannister wrote:
>
> > Currently showing in Australia is the worst British comedy I have
> > seen in years. Since I only watched about 15 minutes of the first
> > episode, I'm not sure of the title (All the Power?), but it seems to
> > demonstrate once again that some British audiences only need a whiff
> > of homosexuality to start giggling. If there is any other "humour" in
> > this show, I must have missed it.
>
> I haven't seen this one - all too often I've been caught out by new
> "comedies" that aren't funny - but we do seem to have been invaded
> lately by the real dregs of British comedy. "Ali G"
I've no interest in watching that, so I never have, but I suspect I
would hate it. However, it's not intended for the likes of us.
> and "The Kumars at No 69"
That is tolerable but I don't like the format and have no interest in
"celebrities" so I don't bother with it. I never watched Mrs Merton
for the same reason despite the excellence of the main actress.
> are almost completely devoid of humour.
> "Little Britain" has its
> funny moments, but it's so cringeworthy that I gave up on it.
That's the point. And it's BBC radio transferred to TV again.
Green Wing. Let me say it again. GREEN WING! It's a long time
since I've had trouble breathing because I was laughing so much.
However, it is gross, disgusting, disturbing, gross, amoral, gross
and thoroughly revolting. And the funniest thing on TV for the last
couple of years.
T.H. Entity
wrought:
A basic rule for international viewers: If It's On Bibbacy Proim, It's
Bad. (*The Vicar of Dibley*? Christ, *All Gas and Gaiters* was funnier
forty years ago).
The only hope to avoid the general Badness is to watch Bibbacy Weld
when it changes its name to Bibbacy Learning in the early hours of the
(Yurpeen) morning -- at least they show the odd *Horizon* from time to
time.
--
THE
Salvatore Volatile
> For some reason "Ma'am", which I believe was/is used
> in US schools,
Was, perhaps (by my day I think it would have been seen as too
old-fashioned by both the pupils and the teachers). Use of "sir" or
"ma'am" to refer to a teacher is almost inconceivable to me, since it
implies the wrong relationship.
> Am I right in thinking that pupils/students in US schools are addressed by
> teachers as e.g. "Mr Smith"?
That was standard in my experience throughout all phases of pre-college
school. There were few non-female teachers in elementary school (all mine
were female), but many in the middle/high school years. As I noted,
"Mrs. Smith" was used, I think, in elementary school even for teachers who
were actually Misses (I can remember at least one case of this -- my
fourth grade teacher was called "Mrs. Fleischman" but she was actually
"Miss Fleischman"). Teachers with PhDs were addressed as "Dr. Smith",
yes, but one popular physics teacher in high school was known simply as
Doc. Erk can tell you what strange practices occur today, at least for
the schools on the Peninsula. I would guess that at a minimum "Mrs." and
"Miss" are extinct. My younger brother is a high school teacher and he's
addressed as "Mr.".
There's no standard way of addressing (pre-college) teachers in AmE
without use of the teacher's surname (except maybe "Teacher", but in my
experience that was rare) the way I gather "Sir" and "Miss" were
traditionally used in BrE.
In college it was "Professor Smith", and I suppose you could just use
"Professor". In my graduate (= BrE "postgraduate") school experiences,
usage varied widely depending on the context and the teacher from
"Professor Smith" to "Dr. Smith" to using the professor's first (=
OmrudSanctionedBrE "Christian") name.
--
Salvatore Volatile
Maria Conlon
> Salvatore Volatile wrote:
>> Rob Bannister (No Relation) wrote:
>>> The point is, the original poster should have stated which version
>>> of English was required.
>>
>> It should have been obvious that the OP was interested in AmE, for
>> he or she wrote "Mr. Bean", not "Mr Bean".>
>
> I didn't realise that Americans even knew about Mr Bean.
What? We've had Judge Roy and Merrill, Lynch, Pierce, Fenner, and
Bean.[1] And I think we still have Orson.
[1] IIRC, Bean was replaced by Smith. Later, the whole string was
reduced to the first two names. And it could be reduced to "ML" any time
now (if not already).
--
Maria Conlon
http://www.familyhomefront.net/
There's only one 'n' in my email address, and it's not in my first name.
Jonathan Morton
> There's no standard way of addressing (pre-college) teachers in AmE
> without use of the teacher's surname (except maybe "Teacher", but in my
> experience that was rare) the way I gather "Sir" and "Miss" were
> traditionally used in BrE.
"Miss" in isolation was never traditional use in Britain. The
old-fashioned usages were "Sir" for a man, but "Miss Jones", "Mrs Smith"
etc for a woman.
Nowadays it's "Mr so-and-so" more than it was, though "Sir" still has
its place.
I certainly envy the US its academic/business/formal social courtesies
in this respect. In particular the loss of "Ma'am" is a shame. One of
its problems here is that people overlook the apostrophe and the reason
for it - thus forming the view that the apparent "aa" vowel sound rhymes
with "Baa, baa, black sheep".
Regards
Jonathan
the Omrud
it:
> Salvatore Volatile wrote:
>
> > There's no standard way of addressing (pre-college) teachers in AmE
> > without use of the teacher's surname (except maybe "Teacher", but in my
> > experience that was rare) the way I gather "Sir" and "Miss" were
> > traditionally used in BrE.
>
> "Miss" in isolation was never traditional use in Britain. The
> old-fashioned usages were "Sir" for a man, but "Miss Jones", "Mrs Smith"
> etc for a woman.
For which values of "never"? In my experience, all female school
teachers, primary and secondary, were addressed to their face as
"Miss". We only used their names if necessary for clarity (if two
were standing together, for example).
Don Aitken
<jona...@jonathanmortonbutignorethisbit.co.uk> wrote:
>Salvatore Volatile wrote:
>
>> There's no standard way of addressing (pre-college) teachers in AmE
>> without use of the teacher's surname (except maybe "Teacher", but in my
>> experience that was rare) the way I gather "Sir" and "Miss" were
>> traditionally used in BrE.
>
>"Miss" in isolation was never traditional use in Britain. The
>old-fashioned usages were "Sir" for a man, but "Miss Jones", "Mrs Smith"
>etc for a woman.
>
It depends entirely on where you were educated. It was traditional at
every school I attended. One female teacher who insisted that pupils
use her name, as had been cutomary at her previous school, rapidly
made hereslf *extremely* unpopular.
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>Green Wing. Let me say it again. GREEN WING! It's a long time
>since I've had trouble breathing because I was laughing so much.
>However, it is gross, disgusting, disturbing, gross, amoral, gross
>and thoroughly revolting. And the funniest thing on TV for the last
>couple of years.
Green Wing had all too few episodes. It's not fair to tease us like
that.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
Wood Avens
<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>Alan Jones wrote:
>> Am I right in thinking that pupils/students in US schools are addressed by
>> teachers as e.g. "Mr Smith"?
>
>That was standard in my experience throughout all phases of pre-college
>school. There were few non-female teachers in elementary school (all mine
>were female), but many in the middle/high school years. As I noted,
>"Mrs. Smith" was used, I think, in elementary school even for teachers who
>were actually Misses (I can remember at least one case of this -- my
>fourth grade teacher was called "Mrs. Fleischman" but she was actually
>"Miss Fleischman").
Is Alan not asking what the teachers call the students, rather than
the other way round?
As undergraduates in the UK in the 60s we were routinely called Miss
or Mr [Surname], as applicable; but not at school (AmE = high school).
--
Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
the Omrud
The second series has just finished here. Rather a surprising ending
to the final episode.
JF
<usenet...@gmail.com> writes
Quite right, too. Furthermore, good manners necessitates the use of
'Miss' where a lady's status is unknown or unknowable.
John Dean
And single women were invariably addressed as "Miss" on Donald McGill
postcards. And by Dixon of Dock Green.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Robert Bannister
and couldn't bear any more. Not one line even made me smile. I didn't
know the main actor was gay, but there was something slightly sickening
about him - the difference between Terry Whassisname (now dead - the one
who used to like singing "I'm a little teapot") and Kenneth Williams -
the latter was funny; the former was not.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
I think that might be an age thing: if most of the female teachers are
married, then all get called Mrs; if most of them are young things fresh
from college, then all get called Miss.
Some of my older colleagues really hated receiving mail addressed "Ms";
they wanted "Mrs". Younger ones, especially those who had not adopted
their husband's surname, went of course the other way. There's no
pleasing some people.
--
Rob Bannister
Stephen Calder
> X-No-Archive: yes
> In message <W9mdnbHL7tA...@bt.com>, Jonathan Morton
> <jona...@jonathanmortonbutignorethisbit.co.uk> writes
>
>> "Miss" in isolation was never traditional use in Britain. The
>> old-fashioned usages were "Sir" for a man, but "Miss Jones", "Mrs
>> Smith" etc for a woman.
>
>
> The housekeeper is always addressed as 'mum' by her staff even though
> she may not be a mother and has never even tried.
It's pronounced "mum" but I always heard it as a variant of "Ma'am". You
hear it on The Bill all the time.
--
Stephen
Lennox Head, Australia
Salvatore Volatile
> On Mon, 29 May 2006 16:57:23 +0000 (UTC), Salvatore Volatile
><m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>Alan Jones wrote:
>
>>> Am I right in thinking that pupils/students in US schools are addressed by
>>> teachers as e.g. "Mr Smith"?
[my material snip'd]
> Is Alan not asking what the teachers call the students, rather than
> the other way round?
Oh yeah. The answer is, that hasn't been the practice at the
pre-post-undergraduate level since Time Immemorial[TM], I'd say. Prior to
Tet, I can't speak for.
However, it was the practice in most classes in one particular graduate
school environment I once participated in (not counting classes taught by
one professor who liked the students to think of him as sort of being on
their level), and I think this was and probably still is typical at most
such schools of this type, but it was not the practice in any other of
the post-undergraduate school environments I, elsewhere and at other
times, participated in.
> As undergraduates in the UK in the 60s we were routinely called Miss
> or Mr [Surname], as applicable; but not at school (AmE = high school).
For all I know that still goes on at some colleges, but I'd be surprised.
Maybe in Utah?
--
Salvatore Volatile
the Omrud
Terry Scott? I can't imagine how one can compare him with Kenneth
Williams - they were different types of comic.
But I accept the point - the only reason for existence for comedy is
to be funny, which is a personal choice.
Linz
> Peter Moylan <pe...@DIESPAMMERSozebelg.org> had it:
>> I haven't seen this one - all too often I've been caught out by new
>> "comedies" that aren't funny - but we do seem to have been invaded
>> lately by the real dregs of British comedy. "Ali G"
>
> I've no interest in watching that, so I never have, but I suspect I
> would hate it. However, it's not intended for the likes of us.
Didn't like it. Saw a few minutes but, as you say, not for PLU.
>> and "The Kumars at No 69"
>
> That is tolerable but I don't like the format and have no interest in
> "celebrities" so I don't bother with it. I never watched Mrs Merton
> for the same reason despite the excellence of the main actress.
I liked the characters - Mrs Kumar is lovely and Mr Kumar in a world of his
own - but the humour of embarrassment never attracted me.
>> are almost completely devoid of humour.
>
>> "Little Britain" has its
>> funny moments, but it's so cringeworthy that I gave up on it.
>
> That's the point. And it's BBC radio transferred to TV again.
>
> Green Wing. Let me say it again. GREEN WING! It's a long time
> since I've had trouble breathing because I was laughing so much.
> However, it is gross, disgusting, disturbing, gross, amoral, gross
> and thoroughly revolting. And the funniest thing on TV for the last
> couple of years.
"The Smoking Room" is very, very funny. "Green Wing" made me laugh but kept
clashing with things so I didn't see much of it.
John Holmes
> Salvatore Volatile wrote:
>
>
>> Yes, that's a known pondianism. Apparently in AusE "Miss" is so
>> used too. And male teachers are addressed as "Sir", FWIU.
You're about 40-50 years behind the times, Sal.
> Wrong. School students use the teacher's name Miss Soandso, Mrs
> Soandso, though the tendency is prefer Miss. A few young, trendy
> teachers
> encourage the use of their first name, which seems weird to me, but
> each
> to his/her own. Most of the kids in my classes used to call me Mr B.
Some primary schools around here work on all first names, but in all
high schools I think it is as you say.
> New immigrants from Britain stand out like a sore thumb with their
> continual use of "Sir" or "Miss", but they soon learn.
Also some Asian and, I've noticed, Greek kids who have been raised to be
very polite.
--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au
the Omrud
> the Omrud wrote:
>
> > Green Wing. Let me say it again. GREEN WING! It's a long time
> > since I've had trouble breathing because I was laughing so much.
> > However, it is gross, disgusting, disturbing, gross, amoral, gross
> > and thoroughly revolting. And the funniest thing on TV for the last
> > couple of years.
>
> "The Smoking Room" is very, very funny.
Ah, yes, I like that.
LFS
> the Omrud wrote:
>
>>Peter Moylan <pe...@DIESPAMMERSozebelg.org> had it:
>
>
>>>I haven't seen this one - all too often I've been caught out by new
>>>"comedies" that aren't funny - but we do seem to have been invaded
>>>lately by the real dregs of British comedy. "Ali G"
>>
>>I've no interest in watching that, so I never have, but I suspect I
>>would hate it. However, it's not intended for the likes of us.
>
>
> Didn't like it. Saw a few minutes but, as you say, not for PLU.
>
>
>>>and "The Kumars at No 69"
>>
>>That is tolerable but I don't like the format and have no interest in
>>"celebrities" so I don't bother with it. I never watched Mrs Merton
>>for the same reason despite the excellence of the main actress.
>
>
> I liked the characters - Mrs Kumar is lovely and Mr Kumar in a world of his
> own - but the humour of embarrassment never attracted me.
I enjoyed it because the family dynamics were so entertaining, and so
much like some Jewish families - I enjoyed that film about an Indian
wedding for the same reason.
[..]
>
> "The Smoking Room" is very, very funny. "Green Wing" made me laugh but kept
> clashing with things so I didn't see much of it.
>
>
I think "The Smoking Room" is very funny, too. I've never managed to
catch "Green Wing" and I find watching Debbie (who in my mind has always
been blonde) quite distracting (I hear she's very good in "Much Ado" at
Stratford).
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
JF
<sp...@lindsayendell.org.uk> writes
>I liked the characters - Mrs Kumar is lovely and Mr Kumar in a world of his
>own - but the humour of embarrassment never attracted me.
MRS KUMAR: Camping never appealed to me. If I wanted to live in a
field and shit in a hole in the ground, I would've
stayed in Pakistan.
FAMOUS EXPLORER You'll need more than a parka to keep you warm at night.
MRS KUMAR: I dream about pakis keeping me warm at night.
Salvatore Volatile
> Robert Bannister wrote:
>> Salvatore Volatile wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Yes, that's a known pondianism. Apparently in AusE "Miss" is so
>>> used too. And male teachers are addressed as "Sir", FWIU.
>
> You're about 40-50 years behind the times, Sal.
I suppose this isn't a Reverse Kojak Effect, but it's a Kojak-related
knowledge phenomenon.
--
Salvatore Volatile
Salvatore Volatile
> Salvatore Volatile wrote:
>> When I was in elementary school it was the opposite. We tended to use
>> "Mrs. Soandso" even in cases where the teacher was actually a Miss. Today
>> this must no longer be an issue. I had a student teacher in first grade
>> (1974-1975) who used Ms., which was new but not exactly shocking at the
>> time, I think.
>>
> I think that might be an age thing: if most of the female teachers are
> married, then all get called Mrs; if most of them are young things fresh
> from college, then all get called Miss.
Possibly. I suppose from my point of view they were all old; I suspect
all my teachers were at least in their early 30s. However, I don't think
it reflected any true knowledge of marital status, which is why we called
Miss Fleischman (who I'm guessing wasn't married) Mrs. Fleischman.
Ms. Flehm <sp>, that first grade student teacher, was certainly on the
young side.
> Some of my older colleagues really hated receiving mail addressed "Ms";
> they wanted "Mrs". Younger ones, especially those who had not adopted
> their husband's surname, went of course the other way. There's no
> pleasing some people.
I think "Ms." really started out as a replacement for "Miss", but it sort
of became a replacement for "Mrs.", if you follow me.
--
Salvatore Volatile
Wood Avens
<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>I think "Ms." really started out as a replacement for "Miss", but it sort
>of became a replacement for "Mrs.", if you follow me.
When I first met it, it was used as a parallel for "Mr", ie a title
which didn't define marital status. In my circle at the time (early
70s, at a guess) it was used by both married and single women who
didn't see that it was anyone else's business whether they were
married or not, and didn't see why that should be the first thing
about them that came to anyone's attention.
Phonedude
> Salvatore Volatile filted:
> >
> >linhth...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> I am wondering which I should use at the beginning of a formal letter:
> >>
> >> 1. Dear Mr. Bean, (the comma after Mr. Bean)
> >>
> >> or
> >>
> >> 2. Dear Mr. Bean: (the colon after Mr. Bean).
> >
> >In American usage, it depends on whether it's a so-called "business
> >letter" or a personal letter. In business letters, a colon is used; in
> >personal letters a comma. It's not so much a matter of formality in these
> >latter days, since many business letters are informal in tone, but
> >the colon is still conventional and a comma dead wrong.
> >
> >In British usage, I think the rule is to dispense with punctuation
> >altogether. The few British letters I've seen that had punctuation
> >used a comma even though they were business letters.
>
> In e-mail, omit both and just begin:
>
> Hi!
Nonsense. Standard email protocol calls for a colon, a hyphen, and a
right parenthesis, although if you know the person you can substitue a
semi-colon. So it would be Hi! :-) or Hi! ;-)
PD
R H Draney
>
>Robert Bannister wrote:
>
>> New immigrants from Britain stand out like a sore thumb with their
>> continual use of "Sir" or "Miss", but they soon learn.
>
>Also some Asian and, I've noticed, Greek kids who have been raised to be
>very polite.
And more than a few Southern (TM) Baptists...or at least the ones who don't
address you and refer to you as "Brother John" or "Brother Holmes"....r
--
It's the crack on the wall and the stain on the cup that gets to you
in the very end...every cat has its fall when it runs out of luck,
so you can do with a touch of zen...cause when you're screwed,
you're screwed...and when it's blue, it's blue.
the Omrud
> I think "The Smoking Room" is very funny, too. I've never managed to
> catch "Green Wing" and I find watching Debbie (who in my mind has always
> been blonde) quite distracting (I hear she's very good in "Much Ado" at
> Stratford).
Dusky blonde, somewhat larger in the area of busty substances and
wearing chunky sweaters and jeans.
the Omrud
> I think "The Smoking Room" is very funny, too.
I should have commented on "Janet", who looks nothing like her mother
but sounds so astonishingly identical that I immediately connected
them.
Robert Bannister
> Terry Scott?
Yes.
I can't imagine how one can compare him with Kenneth
> Williams - they were different types of comic.
They were both camp, but Kenneth was funny, whereas I always felt
vaguely embarrassed by Terry.
>
> But I accept the point - the only reason for existence for comedy is
> to be funny, which is a personal choice.
>
Certainly, but this has some bearing on what an earlier poster alleged:
that the British and Australian/New Zealand senses of humour have always
been very close, but that they may now be diverging. Side-tracking: I
did enjoy "The Worst Week of my Life".
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> On Tue, 30 May 2006 11:50:18 +0000 (UTC), Salvatore Volatile
> <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>
>>I think "Ms." really started out as a replacement for "Miss", but it sort
>>of became a replacement for "Mrs.", if you follow me.
>
>
> When I first met it, it was used as a parallel for "Mr", ie a title
> which didn't define marital status. In my circle at the time (early
> 70s, at a guess) it was used by both married and single women who
> didn't see that it was anyone else's business whether they were
> married or not, and didn't see why that should be the first thing
> about them that came to anyone's attention.
>
Perhaps all men and women should wear a label saying "available", "not
available" or "only available Saturday afternoons during the football
season".
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> Also some Asian and, I've noticed, Greek kids who have been raised to be
> very polite.
If ever I were to open a private school of my own, it would only have
female Chinese students. It is very gratifying for a teacher to be
treated with a little politeness, if only by the students. Of course,
respect, as always, needs to earned.
--
Rob Bannister
don groves
Or Sunday afternoons, if she's a pro.
--
dg
"It's amazing how much mature wisdom resembles being too
tired" -- Robert Heinlein
Linz
> LFS <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> had it:
>
>> I think "The Smoking Room" is very funny, too.
>
> I should have commented on "Janet", who looks nothing like her mother
> but sounds so astonishingly identical that I immediately connected
> them.
You know, she sounded so familiar I kept meaning to look on IMDB to see what
else she'd been in. Now I've done so and you're right!
John Holmes
>
> And more than a few Southern (TM) Baptists...or at least the ones who
> don't address you and refer to you as "Brother John" or "Brother
> Holmes"....r
I don't think our Baptists go in for that, at least not the ones I've
met. Around here the latter lot would be either the Congregationalists
or the Communists, though there aren't many of either.