"half after one = 1:30 pm"?
DJ
Is it correct to say "half after one" to refer to 1:30 (pm)?
----
I managed to find some examples by using Google/Google Books search,
but just want to be sure.
Thanks,
--
DJ
tony cooper
Where? In the United States, we'd figure out what you meant, but most
people would have to stop and figure it out. It's just not used here.
We do say "half past one", though, and we do say "quarter after".
We *are* strange.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
none
Thanks, that's good to know. :)
(And it's good that I don't rely too much on search results :p)
Now I'm waiting for folks from other parts of the world. :-D
--
DJ
Oleg Lego
>Hi,
>
>Is it correct to say "half after one" to refer to 1:30 (pm)?
>
I wouldn't say it, and would consider it an error if I heard it. "Half
past one" is certainly acceptable.
>I managed to find some examples by using Google/Google Books search,
>but just want to be sure.
It's possible to find all sorts of correct and incorrect usage on
Google.
--
WCdnE
the Omrud
(none)"> had it:
It's not normal in the UK either.
It is normal (but slightly informal) to say "half one". Which means
13:30 or 01:30 and not 12:30/00:30 as the same phrase does in German.
--
David
=====
Peter Moylan
>
> Is it correct to say "half after one" to refer to 1:30 (pm)?
It varies enormously by country. I would understand it, but not say it.
In Australia we say "half past one" for 1:30, and "quarter past one" for
1:15. Also "a quarter to one" for 12:45.
(I'd never noticed that before. We require the indefinite article in "a
quarter to", but it's optional in "quarter past".)
That, however, is only the Australian English rule. Different
expressions are used in different parts of the English-speaking world.
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
nanc...@verizon.net
wrote:
>> Is it correct to say "half after one" to refer to 1:30 (pm)?
>
> It varies enormously by country. I would understand it, but not say it.
> In Australia we say "half past one" for 1:30, and "quarter past one" for
> 1:15. Also "a quarter to one" for 12:45.
>
> (I'd never noticed that before. We require the indefinite article in "a
> quarter to", but it's optional in "quarter past".)
>
> That, however, is only the Australian English rule. Different
> expressions are used in different parts of the English-speaking world.
In American English (at least here in Massachusetts, where we
sometimes speak our very own version of the language), we'd be likely
to say either "quarter of one" or "quarter past one". The indefinite
article is optional for either.
I do know some people who say "half past one", but I personally would
be much more likely to say "one-thirty". "Half after" is never heard
around here.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
<pe...@DIESPAMMERSDIEpmoylan.org> said:
> On 07/01/08 15:20, DJ wrote:
>>
>> Is it correct to say "half after one" to refer to 1:30 (pm)?
>
> It varies enormously by country. I would understand it, but not say it.
> In Australia we say "half past one" for 1:30, and "quarter past one" for
> 1:15. Also "a quarter to one" for 12:45.
>
> (I'd never noticed that before. We require the indefinite article in "a
> quarter to", but it's optional in "quarter past".)
>
> That, however, is only the Australian English rule. Different
> expressions are used in different parts of the English-speaking world.
All of your comments apply also to British English. Some people also
say "half one".
--
athel
Steve Ketcham
<e048e71f-03e7-4d84...@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
"nanc...@verizon.net" <nanc...@verizon.net> wrote:
This also seems to be generational (I'm in Massachusetts, too.) Say
"quarter past one" to a teenager, and you're likely to get a confused
look. With the ubiquity of digital time displays, they're much more
likely to say (and understand) one fifteen.
Steve
DJ
I knew something was wrong when I couldn't find "half after X" from two
corpus databases. (I was taught "half after X", among "half past X" and
others, back in school in Taiwan....)
--
DJ
irwell
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
wrote:
Indeed it does. A glass of beer before returning to your
workplace for the afternoon.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter Moylan
Good point. Some of them would even say "one fourteen fifty-seven".
This is (vaguely) related to something that came up in a thread about
slide rules. The older we are, the more likely we are to round our
calculations; in this case, because we grew up with clocks that were
probably off by about five minutes most of the time. "A quarter past
one" is less precise than "one fifteen". The latter implies a precision
of the order of a minute, while "a quarter past one" simply means
somewhere that's definitely after "ten past one" but definitely before
"twenty past one". In reading an analogue clock, we commonly round to
the nearest five-minute mark.
DJ
....
>
> Good point. Some of them would even say "one fourteen fifty-seven".
>
> This is (vaguely) related to something that came up in a thread about
> slide rules. The older we are, the more likely we are to round our
> calculations; in this case, because we grew up with clocks that were
> probably off by about five minutes most of the time. "A quarter past
> one" is less precise than "one fifteen". The latter implies a precision
> of the order of a minute, while "a quarter past one" simply means
> somewhere that's definitely after "ten past one" but definitely before
> "twenty past one". In reading an analogue clock, we commonly round to
> the nearest five-minute mark.
>
Interesting.... That explains what I always hear from an American friend
of mine: "quarter of ten", "quarter something", etc. I actually felt a
bit odd when I first heard him say that. I could understand if it was
9:44:21 or 9:45:17, but 9:42:xx ??
--
DJ
robert...@my-deja.com
> Hi,
>
> Is it correct to say "half after one" to refer to 1:30 (pm)?
It would be an archaic form in England, even on the east coast where I
still occasionally hear "Five-and-twenty to two", which was common
among my Grandfather and his friends. Oddly, it is only "five-and-
twenty" that gets this unusual treatment. Perhaps because five-and-
ten was "quarter past or "quarter to" from the earliest days when
clocks did not have minute hands.
"Five after" and "ten after" is still fairly common around here, but
"half after" seems to not have legs.
My grandma would say "It wants ten minutes for Two O'clock". I expect
it would be understood even if not used now.
Robert Bannister
> This also seems to be generational (I'm in Massachusetts, too.) Say
> "quarter past one" to a teenager, and you're likely to get a confused
> look. With the ubiquity of digital time displays, they're much more
> likely to say (and understand) one fifteen.
I agree about the "say", and I think that applies to teenagers all over
the English-speaking world. However, I'm not convinced they actually
understand it.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> It is normal (but slightly informal) to say "half one". Which means
> 13:30 or 01:30 and not 12:30/00:30 as the same phrase does in German.
>
And the thing that none of us English speaker do, but which exists in
German, is "five after/before half", which would be twenty-five past/to
or, for some of us oldies five and twenty past.
--
Rob Bannister
Fred Springer
> On 7 Jan, 04:20, DJ <n...@nospam.no> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Is it correct to say "half after one" to refer to 1:30 (pm)?
>
> It would be an archaic form in England, even on the east coast where I
> still occasionally hear "Five-and-twenty to two", which was common
> among my Grandfather and his friends. Oddly, it is only "five-and-
> twenty" that gets this unusual treatment. Perhaps because five-and-
> ten was "quarter past or "quarter to" from the earliest days when
> clocks did not have minute hands.
"Five and twenty to" (or "past") is one of the usages which marks me out
from my offspring, who regard it as terribly quaint. Having learned it
at the age of 5, (in 1941 or thereabouts, when it was pretty certainly
the standard all over Britain), I'm unlikely to change it now, though I
might well in some circumstances say eg "one thirty-five" instead.
One would not of course say "five and ten" past, because that has never
been a normal English usage -- the practice of inverting what we now
regard as the natural order only ever applied (as it still does in
modern German) to numbers between 21 and 99. In Old English (also known
as Anglo Saxon)that was the norm; Shakespeare used both forms fairly
indiscriminately; and it wasn't all that uncommon in the 19th century.
By the time I was born, the only survivor of what had once been the
standard was one number, "five and twenty" in only one context, clock time.
No doubt there was an age when old fogeys used to fulminate against
slipshod modern youths who said such barbaric things as "thirty-eight"
when everyone knew the proper way to say it was "eight and thirty".
irwell
wrote:
>My grandma would say "It wants ten minutes for Two O'clock". I expect
>it would be understood even if not used now.
It would be in France, as that is the accepted way
of stating the time. E.g. 'Dix heures moins le quart'
for ten hours less a quarter hour.
LFS
I don't think our clocks at home were ever wrong when I was growing up -
my father was meticulous about checking them against the Greenwich time
signal. And in those days one could generally rely on public clocks
being accurate too.
When digital watches and clocks first became common, I can remember
"translating" the time into more familiar expressions so that 4.34 would
be "about twenty five to five". I stopped doing that when the novelty of
the digital watch wore off and I went back to an old-fashioned analogue one.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Martin
would say "half two", meaning 14.30, while in Swedish (my first
language), "half two" means 13.30.
Peter Moylan
> One would not of course say "five and ten" past, because that has
> never been a normal English usage -- the practice of inverting what
> we now regard as the natural order only ever applied (as it still
> does in modern German) to numbers between 21 and 99. In Old English
> (also known as Anglo Saxon)that was the norm; Shakespeare used both
> forms fairly indiscriminately; and it wasn't all that uncommon in the
> 19th century. By the time I was born, the only survivor of what had
> once been the standard was one number, "five and twenty" in only one
> context, clock time.
And blackbirds. Don't forget the blackbirds. Even though there were only
four and twenty of them.
And virgins, now that I think of it, even if only in Inverness.
Fred Springer
> On 08/01/08 11:27, Fred Springer wrote:
>
By the time I was born, the only survivor of what had
>> once been the standard was one number, "five and twenty" in only one
>> context, clock time.
>
> And blackbirds. Don't forget the blackbirds. Even though there were only
> four and twenty of them.
>
> And virgins, now that I think of it, even if only in Inverness.
>
By Gad you're right -- I'd quite forgotten the virgins. (The blackbirds,
I think, date from a much earlier era.) There is also echoing around the
inner recesses of my mind a song about a girl of one and twenty, but
damned if I can think of either the tune or the rest of the words. Mind
you, songs and poems don't quite count as current usage, being sometimes
deliberately archaic and in any case subject to the constraints of scansion.
I've just Googled "The Ball at Kerriemuir" and the first result claims
it to have been written in the 1880s.
(http://sniff.numachi.com/pages/tiKERIMUIR;ttKERIMUIR.html)
Curiously, the first couple of versions thrown up by Google don't refer
to the Inverness virgins, though one has the following:
John McGowan, the father, was very surprised to see
Four and twenty maidenheads a hanging from the tree.
The song is alleged to have been inspired by an actual wedding
reception, though I can't help but think the tale was much enlarged in
the telling.
Paul Wolff
>Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 08/01/08 11:27, Fred Springer wrote:
>>
> By the time I was born, the only survivor of what had
>>> once been the standard was one number, "five and twenty" in only one
>>> context, clock time.
>> And blackbirds. Don't forget the blackbirds. Even though there were
>>only
>> four and twenty of them.
>> And virgins, now that I think of it, even if only in Inverness.
>>
>
>By Gad you're right -- I'd quite forgotten the virgins. (The
>blackbirds, I think, date from a much earlier era.) There is also
>echoing around the inner recesses of my mind a song about a girl of one
>and twenty, but damned if I can think of either the tune or the rest of
>the words.
Not a song but a poem; not about a girl but about a lad; otherwise this
matches exactly:
When I was one-and-twenty
I heard a wise man say,
`Give crowns and pounds and guineas
But not your heart away;
Give pearls away and rubies
But keep your fancy free.'
But I was one-and-twenty
No use to talk to me.
When I was one-and-twenty
I heard him say again,
`The heart out of the bosom
Was never given in vain;
'Tis paid with sighs a plenty
And sold for endless rue.'
And I am two-and-twenty
And oh, 'tis true, 'tis true.
Lifted from
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~martinh/poems/housman.html#ASLxiii to
save typing.
>Mind you, songs and poems don't quite count as current usage, being
>sometimes deliberately archaic and in any case subject to the
>constraints of scansion.
>
--
Paul
the Omrud
fred.s...@ntlworld.com had it:
> Peter Moylan wrote:
> > On 08/01/08 11:27, Fred Springer wrote:
> >
> >> By the time I was born, the only survivor of what had
> >> once been the standard was one number, "five and twenty" in only one
> >> context, clock time.
> >
> > And blackbirds. Don't forget the blackbirds. Even though there were only
> > four and twenty of them.
> >
> > And virgins, now that I think of it, even if only in Inverness.
>
> By Gad you're right -- I'd quite forgotten the virgins. (The blackbirds,
> I think, date from a much earlier era.) There is also echoing around the
> inner recesses of my mind a song about a girl of one and twenty, but
> damned if I can think of either the tune or the rest of the words.
Not one-and-twenty, but there's Iolanthe:
LORD MOUNTARARAT.
This gentleman is seen,
With a maid of seventeen,
A-taking of his dolce far niente;
And wonders he'd achieve,
For he asks us to believe
She's his mother-and he's nearly five-and-twenty!
--
David
=====
Sara Lorimer
> When digital watches and clocks first became common, I can remember
> "translating" the time into more familiar expressions so that 4.34 would
> be "about twenty five to five". I stopped doing that when the novelty of
> the digital watch wore off and I went back to an old-fashioned analogue one.
You could be even less precise, if you want:
<http://www.x-tremegeek.com/templates/SearchDetail.asp?productID=13711>
--
SML
Joe Fineman
> When I was one-and-twenty
> I heard a wise man say,
> `Give crowns and pounds and guineas
> But not your heart away;
> Give pearls away and rubies
> But keep your fancy free.'
> But I was one-and-twenty
> No use to talk to me.
>
> When I was one-and-twenty
> I heard him say again,
> `The heart out of the bosom
> Was never given in vain;
> 'Tis paid with sighs a plenty
> And sold for endless rue.'
> And I am two-and-twenty
> And oh, 'tis true, 'tis true.
>
> Lifted from
> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~martinh/poems/housman.html#ASLxiii
> to save typing.
>
>> Mind you, songs and poems don't quite count as current usage, being
>> sometimes deliberately archaic and in any case subject to the
>> constraints of scansion.
Also, I believe that in some (English) dialects the inverted form
survived longer in stating ages than in other uses of numbers.
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net
||: If you rest on your laurels, you're wearing them in the :||
||: wrong place. :||
Peter Moylan
Just what I need! Do you know whether they deliver to Australia?
tony cooper
<pe...@DIESPAMMERSDIEpmoylan.org> wrote:
>On 09/01/08 07:59, Sara Lorimer wrote:
>> LFS <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> When digital watches and clocks first became common, I can remember
>>> "translating" the time into more familiar expressions so that 4.34 would
>>> be "about twenty five to five". I stopped doing that when the novelty of
>>> the digital watch wore off and I went back to an old-fashioned analogue one.
>>
>> You could be even less precise, if you want:
>>
>> <http://www.x-tremegeek.com/templates/SearchDetail.asp?productID=13711>
>
>Just what I need! Do you know whether they deliver to Australia?
My wife's brother-in-law recently took some sort of test that is
supposed to determine if the taker has the beginnings of Alzheimer's.
I don't what type of test it was, but it was administered by an M.D.
and involved questions.
The only question he missed was "What day of the week is it?". Those
of us who are retired will not find it at all unusual to miss this
question. Another question that would not be indicative of any
medical problem is "Why did I come into this room?".
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Sara Lorimer
> My wife's brother-in-law recently took some sort of test that is
> supposed to determine if the taker has the beginnings of Alzheimer's.
> I don't what type of test it was, but it was administered by an M.D.
> and involved questions.
>
> The only question he missed was "What day of the week is it?". Those
> of us who are retired will not find it at all unusual to miss this
> question. Another question that would not be indicative of any
> medical problem is "Why did I come into this room?".
I have problems with both of those, and I'm in my thirties. Days are
"school days," "days when my husband doesn't work," and "the week day
without school."
Reasons for being in rooms are "to pick that thing up," "to put that
thing back," "to investigate shouting," "to get more crackers," and "to
check e-mail."
--
SML
LFS
> On Wed, 09 Jan 2008 22:05:02 +1100, Peter Moylan
> <pe...@DIESPAMMERSDIEpmoylan.org> wrote:
>
>> On 09/01/08 07:59, Sara Lorimer wrote:
>>> LFS <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> When digital watches and clocks first became common, I can remember
>>>> "translating" the time into more familiar expressions so that 4.34 would
>>>> be "about twenty five to five". I stopped doing that when the novelty of
>>>> the digital watch wore off and I went back to an old-fashioned analogue one.
>>> You could be even less precise, if you want:
>>>
>>> <http://www.x-tremegeek.com/templates/SearchDetail.asp?productID=13711>
>> Just what I need! Do you know whether they deliver to Australia?
>
> My wife's brother-in-law recently took some sort of test that is
> supposed to determine if the taker has the beginnings of Alzheimer's.
> I don't what type of test it was, but it was administered by an M.D.
> and involved questions.
>
> The only question he missed was "What day of the week is it?". Those
> of us who are retired will not find it at all unusual to miss this
> question.
I'm not retired and I have to keep checking - that's one reason I've
recently abandoned my filofax for a PDA, which enables me to do so
covertly.
Another question that would not be indicative of any
> medical problem is "Why did I come into this room?".
Well, it might, but a great many of us are suffering from it.
"How old are your children?" is a question that I am finding difficult
these days, and as people often express surprise at the answer (I look
younger than I am, apparently) I start to wonder if I've got the answer
right.
tony cooper
<la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>"How old are your children?" is a question that I am finding difficult
>these days, and as people often express surprise at the answer (I look
>younger than I am, apparently) I start to wonder if I've got the answer
>right.
My wife is the youngest of eight, and has a slew of nephews, nieces,
and whatever it is they call the progeny of nephews and nieces.
When the Christmas cards came many came with photographs. My wife
would show them to me and I'd ask "Who's that?" about a picture of
40-ish adult with his own slew. "Tommy's son", she'd reply. I tried
not to, too many times, remark that I thought Tommy was still in high
school. We freeze in memory those we don't see often.
Skitt
> LFS wrote:
>> "How old are your children?" is a question that I am finding
>> difficult these days, and as people often express surprise at the
>> answer (I look younger than I am, apparently) I start to wonder if
>> I've got the answer right.
>
> My wife is the youngest of eight, and has a slew of nephews, nieces,
> and whatever it is they call the progeny of nephews and nieces.
>
> When the Christmas cards came many came with photographs. My wife
> would show them to me and I'd ask "Who's that?" about a picture of
> 40-ish adult with his own slew. "Tommy's son", she'd reply. I tried
> not to, too many times, remark that I thought Tommy was still in high
> school. We freeze in memory those we don't see often.
Oh, yes, and what a shock it is to see a recent picture of an erstwhile
girlfriend (a pretty one) after 60 years.
--
Skitt (AmE)
avoids mirrors
R H Draney
>
>tony cooper <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> The only question he missed was "What day of the week is it?". Those
>> of us who are retired will not find it at all unusual to miss this
>> question. Another question that would not be indicative of any
>> medical problem is "Why did I come into this room?".
>
>I have problems with both of those, and I'm in my thirties. Days are
>"school days," "days when my husband doesn't work," and "the week day
>without school."
"Simpsons night", "Heroes night", "My Name Is Earl night", "other"...the
writers' strike has completely screwed me up....
>Reasons for being in rooms are "to pick that thing up," "to put that
>thing back," "to investigate shouting," "to get more crackers," and "to
>check e-mail."
Thesis: "to pick that thing up"
Antithesis: "to put that thing back"
Synthesis: "to look for that thing"
Thesis: "to investigate shouting"
Antithesis: "to get away from all the noise"
Synthesis (?): "to scream my head off at nobody in particular"
....r
--
What good is being an executive if you never get to execute anyone?
robert...@my-deja.com
> And virgins, now that I think of it, even if only in Inverness.
wasn't that "four and twenty"?
robert...@my-deja.com
> No doubt there was an age when old fogeys used to fulminate against
> slipshod modern youths who said such barbaric things as "thirty-eight"
> when everyone knew the proper way to say it was "eight and thirty".
What were you doing out until nearly eight and thirty of the clock,
Young Jerimiah? I expect you were down at those assembly rooms
listening to the rubbish put about by Mr Handel, weren't you? Pah!
young men today would not recognise a decent plainchant if one were to
settle it upon both their ears! And what are you doing with those
buckles upon your shoen? It's all vanity and show with men under 30
now, and I have no idea what will come of it.
Peter Moylan
Yes, certainly. The same as the blackbirds.
Sara Lorimer
> Sara Lorimer filted:
> >
> >I have problems with both of those, and I'm in my thirties. Days are
> >"school days," "days when my husband doesn't work," and "the week day
> >without school."
>
> "Simpsons night", "Heroes night", "My Name Is Earl night", "other"...the
> writers' strike has completely screwed me up....
Odd -- I took you for a Tivo person.
--
SML
Robert Lieblich
[ ... ]
> My wife's brother-in-law recently took some sort of test that is
> supposed to determine if the taker has the beginnings of Alzheimer's.
> I don't what type of test it was, but it was administered by an M.D.
> and involved questions.
>
> The only question he missed was "What day of the week is it?". Those
> of us who are retired will not find it at all unusual to miss this
> question. Another question that would not be indicative of any
> medical problem is "Why did I come into this room?".
Wny my MIL was about 80 she moved into a "Senior Citizens' Independent
Living Residence" (their term for it). She had to pass a brief oral
exam to persuade the director of admissions that she could take care
of herself. MIL considered the day ruined if she couldn't absorb at
least two hours of TV news (Her eyes weren't good enough for
newspapers), and the questions clearly bored her silly. When the quiz
lady asked who the current US president was, MIL answered "Monica
Lewinsky." That ended the exam.
She died at 91, still as sharp as ever, furious that the hospital
wouldn't let her watch CNN in the ICU.
--
Bob Lieblich, AmEclectic
I should be so compos mentis
Robert Lieblich
>
> tony cooper wrote:
[ ... ]
> > When the Christmas cards came many came with photographs. My wife
> > would show them to me and I'd ask "Who's that?" about a picture of
> > 40-ish adult with his own slew. "Tommy's son", she'd reply. I tried
> > not to, too many times, remark that I thought Tommy was still in high
> > school. We freeze in memory those we don't see often.
>
> Oh, yes, and what a shock it is to see a recent picture of an erstwhile
> girlfriend (a pretty one) after 60 years.
Try seeing them in person. I'm still in recovery from my 50th high
school reunion. Interestingly, some of the best-looking women there
had been some of the homeliest girls back in the day, though none, of
course, could compare to the lovely and talented Mrs. Bob (even if she
isn't looking over my shoulder at the moment). And there were also a
few vice versas.
I was careful not to ask for the names of any of their plastic
surgeons. I was also careful not to allow anyone to tell me how *I*
really looked fifty years on.
--
Bob Lieblich, AmEclectic
How high *is* that hill I'm over?
Skitt
> Skitt wrote:
>> tony cooper wrote:
>>> When the Christmas cards came many came with photographs. My wife
>>> would show them to me and I'd ask "Who's that?" about a picture of
>>> 40-ish adult with his own slew. "Tommy's son", she'd reply. I
>>> tried not to, too many times, remark that I thought Tommy was still
>>> in high school. We freeze in memory those we don't see often.
>>
>> Oh, yes, and what a shock it is to see a recent picture of an
>> erstwhile girlfriend (a pretty one) after 60 years.
>
> Try seeing them in person. I'm still in recovery from my 50th high
> school reunion. Interestingly, some of the best-looking women there
> had been some of the homeliest girls back in the day, though none, of
> course, could compare to the lovely and talented Mrs. Bob (even if she
> isn't looking over my shoulder at the moment). And there were also a
> few vice versas.
That reminds me -- I did recently see one of the gals of those days of yore.
I would not have recognized her without the clues we had agreed on. I have
pictures of then and now, but ...
--
Skitt (AmE)
considering a shredding of evidence
R H Draney
Maybe someday...at the moment I'm still a tape person....r
Mark Brader
> Reasons for being in rooms are "to pick that thing up," "to put that
> thing back," "to investigate shouting," "to get more crackers," and "to
> check e-mail."
You post to Usenet from outside of a room, then?
--
Mark Brader | It is easy to run a secure computer system. You
Toronto | merely have to disconnect all dial-up connections,
m...@vex.net | put the machine and its terminals in a shielded
| room, and post a guard at the door.
| -- Frederick T. Grampp & Robert H. Morris
Sara Lorimer
> Sara Lorimer writes:
> > Reasons for being in rooms are "to pick that thing up," "to put that
> > thing back," "to investigate shouting," "to get more crackers," and "to
> > check e-mail."
>
> You post to Usenet from outside of a room, then?
I come in to check e-mail, and half an hour later find I'm still sitting
here...
--
SML
Sara Lorimer
> Oh, yes, and what a shock it is to see a recent picture of an erstwhile
> girlfriend (a pretty one) after 60 years.
My mother saw her college boyfriend a few years ago, for the first time
since college. I think their surprise must've been good: they got
married not long after.
--
SML
LFS
As she got older, my mum often used to say that she found it a big shock
to look in the mirror and see some old lady staring back at her.
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
[...]
> Days are "school days," "days when my husband doesn't work," and
> "the week day without school."
And, of course, the "cotton-pony days," "moon-days," "red-flag days,"
"red-letter days," "red-horse days," "Aunt Flo days," "BV days,"
"muddy-playground days," &c.
ObMex: "Los días de los vampiritos" and the ever-popular Finnish
"känkkäränkkäpäivää" (sg).
~~~ Reinhold (Rey) Aman ~~~
Dites-moi: Pourquoi la vie est merde?
R H Draney
>
>
>As she got older, my mum often used to say that she found it a big shock
>to look in the mirror and see some old lady staring back at her.
The "shaving when not yet fully awake" response: "What the hell is Dad doing
here?"...r
Peter Moylan
> Dites-moi: Pourquoi la vie est merde?
Elle est meilleure que l'alternative.
Amethyst Deceiver
Aw, that's lovely!
nanc...@verizon.net
> As she got older, my mum often used to say that she found it a big shock
> to look in the mirror and see some old lady staring back at her.
I used to find it a shock to look in the mirror and see my mom looking
back at me -- but lately, it's gotten worse, because occasionally I
think I almost see my grandma!
Athel Cornish-Bowden
<pe...@DIESPAMMERSDIEpmoylan.org> said:
> On 08/01/08 11:27, Fred Springer wrote:
>
>> One would not of course say "five and ten" past, because that has
>> never been a normal English usage -- the practice of inverting what
>> we now regard as the natural order only ever applied (as it still
>> does in modern German) to numbers between 21 and 99. In Old English
>> (also known as Anglo Saxon)that was the norm; Shakespeare used both
>> forms fairly indiscriminately; and it wasn't all that uncommon in the
>> 19th century. By the time I was born, the only survivor of what had
>> once been the standard was one number, "five and twenty" in only one
>> context, clock time.
>
> And blackbirds. Don't forget the blackbirds. Even though there were only
> four and twenty of them.
>
> And virgins, now that I think of it, even if only in Inverness.
Were there as many as that? I believe there are some stone lions in
Nottingham that roar if a virgin walks by, but as that has never
happened we don't know if the reported behaviour of the lions is true.
--
athel
Frances Kemmish
That's just a myth. Now there is a church in Chesterfield whose spire
twisted when a virgin walked by. Presumably, it will straighten out next
that happens.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/derby/content/ecards/chesterfield_spire_ecard.shtml
Fran
Fred Springer
Ah, the old jokes -- they don't make 'em like that any more. The version
I grew up with concerned the statue of Lady Godiva in Coventry, reputed
to get off her horse if a virgin walked by after midnight.
Peter Moylan
style of glasses, she added 20 years to her apparent age in one day. I
don't think she ever forgave my inability to maintain a poker face. I
could have held it if it were not for the fact that she'd turned into
the spit and image of my grandmother.
Peter Moylan
There was once a plan, I'm told, to have the son of &deity; visit
Australia. It had to be scrapped because nobody could find three wise
men or a virgin.
LFS
[..]
she'd turned into
> the spit and image of my grandmother.
>
Spitting, shirley? Have we discussed this?
Sara Lorimer
Sara Lorimer
> When my young-looking second wife cut off her long hair and changed her
> style of glasses, she added 20 years to her apparent age in one day.
I've found women usually look years younger when they cut off their long
hair. Depends on the style, I suppose.
--
SML
Leslie Danks
> Peter Moylan wrote:
>
> [..]
>
> she'd turned into
>> the spit and image of my grandmother.
>>
>
> Spitting, shirley? Have we discussed this?
[quote]
"These phrases mean "exact likeness". "Spitting image" is first
recorded in 1901; "spit and image" is a bit older (from the late
19th century),"
<http://www.yaelf.com/aueFAQ/mifsptndmgspttngmg.shtml>
--
Les
Evan Kirshenbaum
"Spitting image" goes back to at least 1894 on Google Books:
"Blest if you don't look the spitting image of a friend of
mine--'boutn the eyes, I mean--red and swelled up and such.
Hall Caine, _A Son of Hagar_, 1894
"Spit and image" first appears there in 1886:
"She will have trouble with that boy, I fear," responded his wife.
"He is her very spit and image."
Elizabeth Martin, _Whom God Hath Joined_, 1886
That's close enough that I wouldn't place a lot of money on which came
first.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |If I may digress momentarily from
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |the mainstream of this evening's
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |symposium, I'd like to sing a song
|which is completely pointless.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | Tom Lehrer
(650)857-7572
Oleg Lego
A few years after my stepfather died, I mentioned to my mother that an
old friend of the family was living within about 15 miles of her, and
asked if she wanted to give him a call. She said she did, do I gave
her his number. They had not seen each other for 40 years or so.
They got together, and spent a few years travelling around the world
(Mexico, Australia, Europe), and were quite happy together. They
maintained separate living quarters, but spent a LOT of time together.
Mom died when she was 81, in 2003, and Charlie died just a month ago,
at 92. They were so good for each other, and the entire family was
very glad they got together.
It's VERY nice when it happens.
--
WCdnE
Evan Kirshenbaum
> "Spitting image" goes back to at least 1894 on Google Books:
>
> "Blest if you don't look the spitting image of a friend of
> mine--'boutn the eyes, I mean--red and swelled up and such.
>
> Hall Caine, _A Son of Hagar_, 1894
>
> "Spit and image" first appears there in 1886:
>
> "She will have trouble with that boy, I fear," responded his wife.
> "He is her very spit and image."
>
> Elizabeth Martin, _Whom God Hath Joined_, 1886
>
> That's close enough that I wouldn't place a lot of money on which came
> first.
Possible evidence in favor of "spit and image":
"He's the spit of what his uncle was," said the aged rustic.
"When he was a lad he was the best cudgel-player, the best man of
his hands, and the prettiest man of his feet from here to Castle
Barfield."
D. Christie Murray, _Aunt Rachel_, 1886
So "spit" without "image" seems to have come about the same time as
"spit and image". Also
spit. "The ve'y spit an' image o' him" = the exact image of him.
["He's the spit of his father," or a similar phrase, has been
reported for New England, perhaps only from Irish speakers of
English. Cf. also J.C. Harris, _Uncle Remus_, 1881, pp. 82, 91.]
"Kentucky Words", _Dialect Notes_. Google Books says
1890, but internal evidence indicates 1891 or 1892.
_Uncle Remus_ has "de ve'y spit en image er de ole man", "de ve'y
spit en image er ole Miss", and "de ve'y spit en immig un you".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |As the judge remarked the day that
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | he acquitted my Aunt Hortense,
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |To be smut
|It must be ut-
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |Terly without redeeming social
(650)857-7572 | importance.
| Tom Lehrer
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Donna Richoux
> Evan Kirshenbaum <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> writes:
>
> > "Spitting image" goes back to at least 1894 on Google Books:
> >
> > "Blest if you don't look the spitting image of a friend of
> > mine--'boutn the eyes, I mean--red and swelled up and such.
> >
> > Hall Caine, _A Son of Hagar_, 1894
> >
> > "Spit and image" first appears there in 1886:
[snip more about both]
What you don't mention is that "spirit and image" is believed (by some,
at least) to be a forerunner of both. Google Books shows it is a fixed
phrase in the early 1800s, particularly in Protestant Christian
writing. Given the abstract nature of the writing, it's tough to discern
the meaning. Examples:
The Works - Page 900 by John Howe, Edmund Calamy -
Puritans - 1835 And therefore, these two things in
reference to this wordly spirit and image must be
understood to be done
The Friends' Library: Comprising Journals, Doctrinal
Treatises, and Other ... - Page 143 by William Evans,
Thomas Evans - Quakers - 1841 ... to his appearance
in you, by his Divine Light and Spirit, which every
way discovers and judges the world's nature, spirit
and image in you. ...
The American Baptist Magazine, and Missionary
Intelligencer - Page 108 Baptists - 1821 ... into his
marvellous light ; and several appear burning and
shining lights, and have much of the spirit and
image of Christ implanted in their souls. ...
The Iliad of Homer - Page 377 by Homer, Graduate of
the University of Oxford, H. P. - 1847 - 416 pages ..
. and uttered this doleful speech: "Alas! there is
indeed then, in the abodes of Hades, some spirit and
image, but there is no body in it at all;
The Practical Works of Richard Baxter: With a Life of
the Author ... - Page 102 by Richard Baxter -
1830 And as the sun hath a double light,' lux et
lumen/ its essential light in itself, and its
emitted beams, or communicated light; so the Spirit
and image of ...
There is no hit before 1800 except once in a book of sermons from 1670,
where it might be coincidence. It's not a phrase in the King James
Version, according to Bible Gateway.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Evan Kirshenbaum
> What you don't mention is that "spirit and image" is believed (by
> some, at least) to be a forerunner of both. Google Books shows it is
> a fixed phrase in the early 1800s, particularly in Protestant
> Christian writing. Given the abstract nature of the writing, it's
> tough to discern the meaning. Examples:
Searching more narrowly for "is [are, ...] the spirit and image of", I
don't see anything before
He thinks you're the spirit and image of the Telfair family.
Crittendon Marriott, _The Ward of Tecumseh_, 1914
which could be taken a couple of ways. I see two unmistakable hits
from 1937 and 1939 and a few from the 1990s, so I'd be tempted to
treat derivation from the earlier phrase as a folk etymology.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Now every hacker knows
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | That the secret to survivin'
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Is knowin' when the time is free
| And what's the load and queue
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |'Cause everyone's a cruncher
(650)857-7572 | And everyone's a user
|And the best that you can hope for
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Is a crash when you're through
Donna Richoux
> tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) writes:
>
> > What you don't mention is that "spirit and image" is believed (by
> > some, at least) to be a forerunner of both. Google Books shows it is
> > a fixed phrase in the early 1800s, particularly in Protestant
> > Christian writing. Given the abstract nature of the writing, it's
> > tough to discern the meaning. Examples:
>
> Searching more narrowly for "is [are, ...] the spirit and image of", I
> don't see anything before
>
> He thinks you're the spirit and image of the Telfair family.
>
> Crittendon Marriott, _The Ward of Tecumseh_, 1914
>
> which could be taken a couple of ways. I see two unmistakable hits
> from 1937 and 1939 and a few from the 1990s, so I'd be tempted to
> treat derivation from the earlier phrase as a folk etymology.
Maybe.
It's also said as "the very spirit and image of" somebody. Searching on
"very spirit and image" gives a few more hits. This magazine is marked
1910 and it was only published from 1903 to 1910:
Burr McIntosh Monthly - Page 36 Photography -
1910 Big Al is a man of fine presence and good
address -- the very spirit and image of a busy,
wide-awake office manager.
Another journal, which I can only find record of being printed until
1903, has:
The Book Buyer by Charles Scribner's Sons - American
literature Bibliography Periodicals - 1899 Page 125 .
.. let us be duly grateful for these prefatory
sketches by his daughter, for they " picture forth
the very spirit and image of the man. ...
I have no problem with the timeline. If it *was* originally "spirit and
image," and "spittin/spit and" were corruptions or variants, then it
would be expected to continue to see "spirit and image" during the same
decades the others appeared, and after.
This hit for "very" gets us back to the religious writing. You can see
more of the idea of "essential spirit and likeness" idea:
A Series of Articles and Discourses:
Doctrinal, Practical, and Experimental ... - Page 239
by Simon Clough - Sermons, American - 1843 - 540
pages By a sacred and a mysterious influence, he
imparts his very spirit and image to his followers ;
and by a continued supply of his grace and mercy, ...
This page quotes some uncertainties of various word experts, including
"Morris Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins" by William and Mary
Morris (HarperCollins, New York, 1988) and "The Encyclopedia of Word and
Phrase Origins" by Robert Hendrickson (Facts on File, New York, 1997):
http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/3/messages/542.html
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Evan Kirshenbaum <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>
>> Searching more narrowly for "is [are, ...] the spirit and image
>> of", I don't see anything before
>>
>> He thinks you're the spirit and image of the Telfair family.
>>
>> Crittendon Marriott, _The Ward of Tecumseh_, 1914
>>
>> which could be taken a couple of ways. I see two unmistakable hits
>> from 1937 and 1939 and a few from the 1990s, so I'd be tempted to
>> treat derivation from the earlier phrase as a folk etymology.
>
> Maybe.
[snip]
> Another journal, which I can only find record of being printed until
> 1903, has:
>
> The Book Buyer by Charles Scribner's Sons - American
> literature Bibliography Periodicals - 1899 Page 125 .
> .. let us be duly grateful for these prefatory
> sketches by his daughter, for they " picture forth
> the very spirit and image of the man. ...
It's 1899 accoding to the title page (and the article in question is
in the index, which has "1899" handwritten on the top).
> I have no problem with the timeline. If it *was* originally "spirit
> and image," and "spittin/spit and" were corruptions or variants,
> then it would be expected to continue to see "spirit and image"
> during the same decades the others appeared, and after.
Sure, but I'd expect "spirit and image" to show up in this sense some
time before eighteen years after Harris put it into the mouths of his
slave characters and before nine years after the American Dialect
Society describes it as "Kentucky dialect" without noting any
connection to an earlier sense.
Further muddying the waters, I see it back in 1875 in yet a
*different* form:
After inquiry, the wife and mother told of trouble and death in
the family, of the loss of a little boy that had once run about
the floor and played with his toys, and sat in the little
arm-chair which was now vacant--put on one side for baby, if God
spared it. Tears came to the good woman's eyes when she said, "It
was the 'spitten'[*] image of Tommy who lived next door. They
were both of an age, sir, and, whenever I see him, I think of my
own;" and her loving breast heaved with emotion.
[*] "Spitten image" means exact likeness
_The Juvenile Instructor and Companion_, 1875
So either this is a past participle for "spit" or it was already
corrupted by 1875. The setting here is "a tenemented house", which
implies urban rather than rural to me, but the footnote implies that
the editor didn't expect the phrase to be familiar to readers.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |A specification which calls for
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |network-wide use of encryption, but
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |invokes the Tooth Fairy to handle
|key distribution, is a useless
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |farce.
(650)857-7572 | Henry Spencer
Robert Bannister
I suspect that what women find attractive in women is rather different
from what men find, and I am quite sure the same thing holds the other
way round: some men that women allegedly find attractive look like out
and out thugs to me.
--
Rob Bannister
Richard Maurer
What you don't mention is that "spirit and image"
is believed (by some, at least) to be a forerunner
of both. Google Books shows it is a fixed phrase
in the early 1800s, particularly in Protestant Christian
writing. Given the abstract nature of the writing,
it's tough to discern the meaning.
[Examples snipped]
As far as I can tell, it wasn't until after _Uncle Remus_
that "spirit and image" was used to refer to ordinary people;
before that there was at least one deity involved.
"Spit", as in "the very spit of him" was used throughout
the 1800s (and according to the FAQ, in the 1400s).
Her last is my godchild, the very image of Hotot,
the very spit of him. I wish you could see her,
she grows like a mushroom ;
Memoirs of Vidocq, written by himself. Tr. [by H.T. Riley].
[with plates, cm ... - Page 107
by Eugčne François Vidocq - 1829 Full view
where she was brought to bed of a daughter,
his acknowledged child; but, according to the report
of the nurse, ' the very spit of the old captain.
The Newgate Calendar: Comprising Interesting Memoirs
of the Most Notorious ... - Page 497
by Andrew Knapp, William Baldwin - 1825 Full view
She is the very spit of her mother
THE CAUSES OF BAD HEALTH IN AMERICAN WOMEN.
New York Times - Nov 12, 1873
-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
tony cooper
The current craze for men is to appear unshaven in public and social
occasions. Not bearded, but unshaven in the Yasser Arafat manner of
three days of stubble.
I appear that way frequently when I'm just around the house, but my
wife insists that I shave if we go out socially. This leads me to
wonder if this new style is male or female driven. Is my wife's sense
of what's hot in men's appearance deficient, or am I just not manly
enough to refuse to shave when she tells me to?
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
mUs1Ka
news:5fgdo3he0iecd87cb...@4ax.com...
We had that a few years ago. It was termed "designer stubble".
--
Ray
UK
irwell
wrote:
Aka scruffy.
Roland Hutchinson
> Skitt wrote:
>>
>> Oh, yes, and what a shock it is to see a recent picture of an erstwhile
>> girlfriend (a pretty one) after 60 years.
>
> Try seeing them in person. I'm still in recovery from my 50th high
> school reunion. Interestingly, some of the best-looking women there
> had been some of the homeliest girls back in the day, though none, of
> course, could compare to the lovely and talented Mrs. Bob (even if she
> isn't looking over my shoulder at the moment).
ObUsage: Why was I expecting a subjunctive in that last clause?
--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.
NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it.
Peter Moylan
> Peter Moylan wrote:
>
> [..]
>
>> she'd turned into the spit and image of my grandmother.
>
> Spitting, shirley? Have we discussed this?
>
agreement.
LFS
I hate to say this, Tony, but I'm fairly sure it has to do with age.
What looks attractive here:
http://galleries.lycos.co.uk/v/Entertainment/Celebrities/revealed/Jude+Law.html
looks simply ridiculous here [1]
http://www.holdthefrontpage.co.uk/images/010428noel.jpg
and unpleasant here:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/173/484327050_e37bc721dd.jpg
[1] apologies to sensitive Rightpondians
Maria
> ... I'm still in recovery from my 50th high
> school reunion. Interestingly, some of the best-looking
> women there
> had been some of the homeliest girls back in the day,
> though none, of
> course, could compare to the lovely and talented Mrs. Bob
> (even if she
> isn't looking over my shoulder at the moment). And there
> were also a
> few vice versas.
[...[
When I went to my 45th reunion last year, my female friends
and I all felt that the "girls" were easier to recognize
than the guys. That is, the guys seemed to have undergone
the most changes.
Would that be true for other posters?
Still looking the same (yes, Shirley, I jest),
Maria
Maria
> LFS filted:
>> As she got older, my mum often used to say that she found
>> it a big
>> shock to look in the mirror and see some old lady staring
>> back at
>> her.
>
> The "shaving when not yet fully awake" response: "What
> the hell is
> Dad doing here?"...r
One of Jan Sand's poems (which can be found, among others,
in my home page):
A Momentary Glance
A quarter of a century ago
My father died.
Someone telephoned at 2 am
That he had gone.
Some points are marked in time
Like gigantic obelisks
On the flat plains
Of all the everydays
That pave our lives.
He had no outstanding wisdoms
But he was kind
And he cared strongly
About the world
And about me.
We did not look too much alike
But, just last night,
He looked at me
From out my bathroom mirror.
He seemed as startled as me.
I miss him.
(Jan Sand used to post to aue. He's still in Finland, and
doing well last I heard, which was at Christmastime.)
--
Maria
http://www.familyhomefront.net/
Peter Moylan
> Robert Lieblich wrote:
>
>> Skitt wrote:
>
>>> Oh, yes, and what a shock it is to see a recent picture of an
>>> erstwhile girlfriend (a pretty one) after 60 years.
>> Try seeing them in person. I'm still in recovery from my 50th high
>> school reunion. Interestingly, some of the best-looking women
>> there had been some of the homeliest girls back in the day, though
>> none, of course, could compare to the lovely and talented Mrs. Bob
>> (even if she isn't looking over my shoulder at the moment).
>
> ObUsage: Why was I expecting a subjunctive in that last clause?
>
without even being in the room.
Amethyst Deceiver
> tony cooper wrote:
>> On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:19:07 +0900, Robert Bannister
>> <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Sara Lorimer wrote:
>>>
>>>> Peter Moylan <pe...@DIESPAMMERSDIEpmoylan.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> When my young-looking second wife cut off her long hair and
>>>>> changed her style of glasses, she added 20 years to her apparent
>>>>> age in one day.
>>>>
>>>> I've found women usually look years younger when they cut off
>>>> their long hair. Depends on the style, I suppose.
>>>>
>>> I suspect that what women find attractive in women is rather
>>> different from what men find, and I am quite sure the same thing
>>> holds the other way round: some men that women allegedly find
>>> attractive look like out and out thugs to me.
They have either a GSOH or money.
>> The current craze for men is to appear unshaven in public and social
>> occasions. Not bearded, but unshaven in the Yasser Arafat manner of
>> three days of stubble.
>>
>> I appear that way frequently when I'm just around the house, but my
>> wife insists that I shave if we go out socially. This leads me to
>> wonder if this new style is male or female driven. Is my wife's
>> sense of what's hot in men's appearance deficient, or am I just not
>> manly enough to refuse to shave when she tells me to?
>>
>
> I hate to say this, Tony, but I'm fairly sure it has to do with age.
>
> What looks attractive here:
>
> http://galleries.lycos.co.uk/v/Entertainment/Celebrities/revealed/Jude+Law.html
But imagine kissing! The scratches, my dear!
> looks simply ridiculous here [1]
>
> http://www.holdthefrontpage.co.uk/images/010428noel.jpg
But imagine kissing. No. Brain-scrub please.
--
Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary
Donna Richoux
> As far as I can tell, it wasn't until after _Uncle Remus_
> that "spirit and image" was used to refer to ordinary people;
> before that there was at least one deity involved.
>
> "Spit", as in "the very spit of him" was used throughout
> the 1800s (and according to the FAQ, in the 1400s).
I didn't think to look at our own FAQ.
>
> Her last is my godchild, the very image of Hotot,
> the very spit of him. I wish you could see her,
>
[snip examples of "very spit of"]
All right, the age of "spit" convinces me that "spirit and image"
couldn't be the original. It must have been an alteration, under the
influence of the early-1800s theological phrase. Still, this would
account for why we now say "image" after "spit" (or
spittin/spitting/spitten) when before it was bare. That's still
important, the church phrase is not just an irrelevant error.
Your Remus suggestion led me to some more evidence for "spit," such as
two letters in Time magazine, in which a 1694 citation is given:
Here is the fruit of his labour, hold up thy
Head, Tommy. Look you Gentlewoman, is he not as like,
as if he was spit out of his mouth?
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,882859-4,00.html
They say the French had the same concept, craché. There's more good
discussion there I won't quote. There are also scholarly articles
available to those who have Muse or Jstor (not me).
The _Time_ letters responded to an earlier statement by Joel Chandler
Harris Jr, the son of the author/collector of the Uncle Remus stories. I
don't find Mr. Harris's actual statement, but it advocated the "spirit
and image" origin, said with a Southern Negro accent. What Harris,
Senior put in dialog, by the way, was spelled "spit en image":
He had a wife en th'ee chilluns, old Brer Tarrypin did
, en dey wuz all de ve'y spit en image er de ole man.
Uncle Remus, 1883 "Mr. Rabbit finds his Match at last"
One of the Time's respondents points out the apostrophe in "ve'y" but
not in "spit".
Richard Maurer
All right, the age of "spit" convinces me
that "spirit and image" couldn't be the original.
It must have been an alteration, under the influence
of the early-1800s theological phrase. Still, this would
account for why we now say "image" after "spit" (or
spittin/spitting/spitten) when before it was bare.
That's still important, the church phrase is not just
an irrelevant error.
People in the 1800s were in the habit of throwing in
"and image" after many words, perhaps under the
influence of the theological phrase: "germ and image",
"figure and image", "likeness and image", ... .
There are also hints that "spit" may have to do with
a church ritual or concept in some branches of the
church, involving spittle, salt, baptism, and the
Last Supper. Someone else may explain.
Skitt
I have always wondered about what it is that makes writing such as quoted
above a poem. Is it because the lines are short?
When written as
A quarter of a century ago my father died. Someone telephoned at 2 am that
he had gone. Some points are marked in time like gigantic obelisks on the
flat plains of all the everydays that pave our lives. He had no outstanding
wisdoms, but he was kind and he cared strongly about the world. And about
me.
We did not look too much alike, but, just last night, he looked at me from
out my bathroom mirror. He seemed as startled as me. I miss him.
is it still a poem?
Just wondering, as a poems generally have a certain meter, of which there
are many types, and usually also a rhyming scheme (again, one of many). The
above appears to be something like a prose poem, but are those written with
short lines?
--
Skitt (AmE)
Whose father was a published poet (among other things).
Skitt
> Just wondering, as a poems generally have a certain meter,
Incomplete editing. Strike the first a.
--
Skitt (AmE)
Robert Bannister
> Just wondering, as a poems generally have a certain meter, of which
> there are many types, and usually also a rhyming scheme (again, one of
> many). The above appears to be something like a prose poem, but are
> those written with short lines?
>
Par ma foi ! Il y a plus de quarante ans que je dis de la prose sans que
j'en susse rien, et je vous suis le plus obligé du monde de m'avoir
appris cela.
--
Rob Bannister
Skitt
Uh, no speaka da French.
--
Skitt
I may not understand what you say, but
I'll defend to your death my right to deny it.
--Albert Alligator
R H Draney
>
>Robert Bannister wrote:
>>
>> Par ma foi ! Il y a plus de quarante ans que je dis de la prose sans
>> que j'en susse rien, et je vous suis le plus obligé du monde de
>> m'avoir appris cela.
>
>Uh, no speaka da French.
Google translations to the rescue!
"By faith! There are over forty years that I say speaking prose without that
I susse nothing, and I am most obliged the world to me Learned that."
No wonder they're so fond of Jerry Lewis....r
--
What good is being an executive if you never get to execute anyone?
Robert Bannister
> Skitt filted:
>
>>Robert Bannister wrote:
>>
>>>Par ma foi ! Il y a plus de quarante ans que je dis de la prose sans
>>>que j'en susse rien, et je vous suis le plus obligé du monde de
>>>m'avoir appris cela.
>>
>>Uh, no speaka da French.
>
>
> Google translations to the rescue!
>
> "By faith! There are over forty years that I say speaking prose without that
> I susse nothing, and I am most obliged the world to me Learned that."
>
> No wonder they're so fond of Jerry Lewis....r
>
>
OK. To put it into modern English: "Shit! I've speaking prose for over
40 years without realising it at all, and I really appreciate having
learnt that."
--
Rob Bannister
Peter Moylan
> They say the French had the same concept, craché.
In French it's possible to say things like "Il est son père craché" (He
is his spitten father), which basically means that he's a good copy of
his father. When the same concept turns up in two separate languages,
it's tempting to say that there's some some of deeper belief involved.
Did not goods create humans from their own spit in some creation myths,
or am I misremembering?
Has anyone pointed out the similarity between spitting from the mouth
and spitting from the penis?
R H Draney
>
>Has anyone pointed out the similarity between spitting from the mouth
>and spitting from the penis?
It's too close to the weekend to respond to a straight line like that....r
LFS
Indeed. The phenomenon of beard burn is not unknown to me.
>
>> looks simply ridiculous here [1]
>>
>> http://www.holdthefrontpage.co.uk/images/010428noel.jpg
>
> But imagine kissing. No. Brain-scrub please.
<snicker (hi, David!)>
the Omrud
had it:
Oh, look, that's really unfair. You have introduced me to an entire
French tense with which I was unfamiliar. Subjunctive imperfect, for
goodness sake.
I see from reading around that nobody really uses it in speech these
days, and that one would be thought terribly formal if one did, which
is presumably why I've never noticed it before. Although I admit to
being aware of "fût" without consciously analysing what grammatic
niche it occupied.
--
David
=====
Peter Moylan
> In article <5uq8kkF...@mid.individual.net>, rob...@bigpond.com
> had it:
>> Par ma foi ! Il y a plus de quarante ans que je dis de la prose
>> sans que j'en susse rien, et je vous suis le plus obligé du monde
>> de m'avoir appris cela.
>
> Oh, look, that's really unfair. You have introduced me to an entire
> French tense with which I was unfamiliar. Subjunctive imperfect,
> for goodness sake.
Since it's usually the last French tense that anyone learns, you can now
confidently say that you know them all. (Unlike classical Greek, for
example, where there always seems to be just one more tense around the
corner.) Learning how to spell the irregular ones remains a problem, I
suppose, but I suspect that that's troublesome even for native speakers.
As far as I know, the main use of l'imparfait du subjontif is to let you
use the tongue-twister "T'eusses tu tu, tu m'eusses plus plu." (There's
a hat goes in there somewhere, but I can never remember where.) It's
grammatically incorrect, but bowls over people long enough that they
don't notice that.
Peter Moylan
> As far as I know, the main use of l'imparfait du subjontif is to let
> you use the tongue-twister "T'eusses tu tu, tu m'eusses plus plu."
>
Sorry, I should have said "lip-twister". It's a good exercise for anyone
who would like a smaller mouth. For anyone having trouble with the
pronunciation, try sucking a lemon first.
Maria
I called it a poem because of its layout. Jan may or may not
call it a poem, but Jan /is/ a poet, so....
Your question is one I've also had over the years.
But all I can say in this case is that most of what Jan does
in formal published pieces is poetry to my ears and eyes.
I'm not sure, but I think that writing it out
paragraph-style would detract from that feeling. I might
even skip over it if it were not in lines as it now appears.
Maria
Isabelle Cecchini
> On 11/01/08 23:53, Donna Richoux wrote:
>
>> They say the French had the same concept, craché.
>
> In French it's possible to say things like "Il est son père craché"
Yes, that's right. The more usual form is "tout craché", as in "C'est
son père tout craché"; "c'est son portrait tout craché".
> (He
> is his spitten father), which basically means that he's a good copy of
> his father. When the same concept turns up in two separate languages,
> it's tempting to say that there's some some of deeper belief involved.
> Did not goods create humans from their own spit in some creation myths,
> or am I misremembering?
>
> Has anyone pointed out the similarity between spitting from the mouth
> and spitting from the penis?
Indeed. Lexicographers have expressed the same idea in a rather more
refined way, but the gist is basically the same:
The TLFi --here:http://www.cnrtl.fr/lexicographie/cracher-- mentions the
Danish philologist Nyrop and Walther von Wartburg's /Französisches
Etymologisches Wörterbuch/ in support of that opinion.
I don't own the/FEW/, but I have the very abridged version /Dictionnaire
étymologique de la langue française/, by Bloch and Wartburg, which dates
the phrase "tout craché" back to the 15th century --as does the TLFi,
which says "ca 1450":
"/tout craché/, XVe; il s'explique par le fait que chez beaucoup de
peuples l'action de cracher symbolise l'acte de génération."
--
Isabelle Cecchini
LFS
This reminded me of Boris Vian's "J'irai cracher sur vos tombes" which I
read many years ago when my command of French was good but I was
probably far too young to understand it. Another book I should probably
revisit.
Isabelle Cecchini
[...]
>
> "Spit", as in "the very spit of him" was used throughout
> the 1800s (and according to the FAQ, in the 1400s).
[snipped interesting instances from the 1800s]
If I've read it right, the FAQ
http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxspitan.html
apparently quotes Eric Partridge's /Dictionary of Slang and
Unconventional English/ as quoting something from 1400, which, by the
way, has more to do with "spit" as a verb than with the phrase "the very
spit". Here is the quote:
"He's ... as like these as th'hads't spit him."
I don't have Eric Partridge's book, and the Routledge 2005 "New
Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English", whose page about
"spitting image" is fortunately readable through Google Books, has no
quote of the sort.
What Google Books does have is /The Routledge Dictionary of Historical
slang/, which they say is based on the earlier book by Partridge, and
here, we find
http://books.google.fr/books?id=0voNAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA4&dq=Dictionary+of+Slang+and+Unconventional+English&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&sig=JiM_Az9qKM2i6pQNT1iOfv64us0#PPA889,M1
on page 889:
" 'He's e'en as like thee as th' had'st spit him,' Cotton"
No date is given, but it does look a lot like the quotation given in the
FAQ, and also a lot like something from the OED, which does have a date:
"1664 Cotton /Scarron/. 106 Hee's e'en as like thee as th' adst spit him."
So, does anyone know where the reference to 1400 in the FAQ comes from?
--
Isabelle Cecchini
Donna Richoux
> Richard Maurer a écrit :
> >
> > "Spit", as in "the very spit of him" was used throughout
> > the 1800s (and according to the FAQ, in the 1400s).
>
> [snipped interesting instances from the 1800s]
>
> If I've read it right, the FAQ
>
> http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxspitan.html
>
> apparently quotes Eric Partridge's /Dictionary of Slang and
> Unconventional English/ as quoting something from 1400, which, by the
> way, has more to do with "spit" as a verb than with the phrase "the very
> spit". Here is the quote:
>
> "He's ... as like these as th'hads't spit him."
>
> I don't have Eric Partridge's book, and the Routledge 2005 "New
> Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English", whose page about
> "spitting image" is fortunately readable through Google Books, has no
> quote of the sort.
I just looked that up as I was finishing what I wrote below. They drag
in the word "fetch," of all things -- "spit and fetch" is supposed to be
an old concept. More than I can deal with right now.
>
> What Google Books does have is /The Routledge Dictionary of Historical
> slang/, which they say is based on the earlier book by Partridge, and
> here, we find
>
http://books.google.fr/books?id=0voNAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA4&dq=Dictionary+of+Sla
ng+and+Unconventional+English&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&sig=JiM_Az9qKM2i6pQNT1iO
fv64us0#PPA889,M1
> on page 889:
>
> " 'He's e'en as like thee as th' had'st spit him,' Cotton"
>
> No date is given, but it does look a lot like the quotation given in the
> FAQ, and also a lot like something from the OED, which does have a date:
>
> "1664 Cotton /Scarron/. 106 Hee's e'en as like thee as th' adst spit him."
>
> So, does anyone know where the reference to 1400 in the FAQ comes from?
Good catch. A search in the archives for <spit partridge
group:alt.usage.english> shows two people (Robert L. McMillin and Pierre
Jelenc) in February 1994 referring to Eric Partridge on this. Both say
1600s, and one was quoting William Safire. The posts, which I will leave
to those interested to read further:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/browse_frm/thread/d9d3a
c67231bf13d/bc817adacff2e1ff?hl=en&lnk=st&q=#bc817adacff2e1ff
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/browse_frm/thread/d9d3a
c67231bf13d/36f70cf995dbe2dd?hl=en&lnk=st&q=#36f70cf995dbe2dd
So I think it is more likely that our FAQ made a typo in saying 1400,
especially since we have the actual (well, variations of) the Cotton
quote. I suppose Cotton is this one in Wikipedia:
Charles Cotton (April 28, 1630 - February, 1687) was
an English poet, best-known for translating the work
of Michel de Montaigne from the French.
Does Google Books have the work... Yes, an 1804 reprint. It's called
"Scarronides," a "mock poem" based on Virgil's Aeneis. The lines are:
By th' Mack (quoth she) thou Trojan trusty,
Thou got'st this Boy when thou wert lusty;
And any one that does but note him,
May soon know who it was begot him ;
I dare be sworn 'twas thou didst get him,
He's e'en as like thee as th' hadst spit him.
"The English Poetry Database" says it was published in 1675.
So unless someone can come up with a solid quote involving 1400, I vote
that the FAQ be revised - not only fix the year, but the wording of the
quote. And name the author and source, too.
Repeating the address of the FAQ entry:
http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxspitan.html
I still think the "and image" part of the phrase is in need of study.
It's not as weird as spit, but I think it can still be tracked down.
Peter Moylan
> Peter Moylan a écrit :
> Yes, that's right. The more usual form is "tout craché", as in "C'est
> son père tout craché"; "c'est son portrait tout craché".
>
>> (He is his spitten father), which basically means that he's a good
>> copy of his father. When the same concept turns up in two separate
>> languages, it's tempting to say that there's some some of deeper
>> belief involved. Did not gods create humans from their own spit in
>> some creation myths, or am I misremembering?
>>
>> Has anyone pointed out the similarity between spitting from the
>> mouth and spitting from the penis?
L'expr. tout craché (A 2) « très ressemblant » s'explique plutôt par le
fait que l'action de cracher peut symboliser l'acte de génération (Nyrop
ds Bulletin de l'Académie du Danemark, 1900, p. 343; FEW, loc. cit.,
note 3) que par un rapprochement entre crachat et goutte d'eau (se
ressembler comme deux gouttes d'eau; G. Pa
Yes, I see what you mean. (For some reason, that web site won't let me
see the right side of each line.) It's interesting to see that it took a
Danish researcher to point that out. I presume that that means that
native speakers used to see the connection, but that it's something that
present-day speakers - with the exception of those who have an interest
in etymology - don't notice.
Those notes suggest - but do not prove - that English borrowed the
expression from French.
Roland Hutchinson
> Robert Bannister wrote:
>> Skitt wrote:
>
>>> Just wondering, as a poems generally have a certain meter, of which
>>> there are many types, and usually also a rhyming scheme (again, one
>>> of many). The above appears to be something like a prose poem, but
>>> are those written with short lines?
>>
>> Par ma foi ! Il y a plus de quarante ans que je dis de la prose sans
>> que j'en susse rien, et je vous suis le plus obligé du monde de
>> m'avoir appris cela.
>
> Uh, no speaka da French.
Undoubtedly because you, Sir, are insufficiently Bourgeois.
--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.
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