beginning business letter
Stefan Horn
Hallo,
I am searching for the right beginning of a business letter. Is there a
difference in the use of
'Dear Sirs'
and 'Dear Sir or Madam'?
If so, where is it? Can I use the first one even if I am going to write
to a company and I do not know who is getting my letter?
With best wishes
Stefan Horn
Robert Clark
In the UK a comma follows "Dear Sir" (NEVER a semicolon!)
and the letter closes "Yours faithfully"
If, on the other hand, you write to someone by name (eg Dear Mr Smith, )
your letter should close "Yours sincerely"
These are UK English conventions.
I am aware that things are done differently in the USA.
Robert Clark
Mimi Kahn <njk...@mindspringerspaniel.com> wrote in article
<3475d08d...@news.mindspring.com>...
> On Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:38:18 -0500, Larry Krakauer <lar...@kronos.com>
> wrote:
Robert Lieblich
Mimi Kahn wrote:
>
> On Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:38:18 -0500, Larry Krakauer <lar...@kronos.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Stefan Horn wrote:
> >> I am searching for the right beginning of a business letter. Is there a
> >>
> >> 'Dear Sirs'
> >> and 'Dear Sir or Madam'?
> >>
> >> If so, where is it? Can I use the first one even if I am going to write
> >> to a company and I do not know who is getting my letter?
> >
> >and you've hit upon a difficult issue.
> >
> >The standard correct form has traditionally been
> >"Dear Sirs;" or "Dear Sir;". Note the semicolon (;)
> >instead of a comma (,), and note that in English, there
> >is no space in front of the punctuation.
> >
> >The modern problem is one of political correctness:
> >"Dear Sir" implies that the letter will be read by a man.
> >As many wish to avoid this implicit assumption,
> >"Dear Sir or Madam;" has become popular, and I have not
> >seen many object to its use.
> >
> >I would say you can use either without being considered
> >incorrect. I don't think many will perceive a difference.
> >Let's see if you get other replies.
>
> I question the use of the semicolon. A colon customarily follows
> "Dear Sir" or whatever other salutation you decide upon, at least in
> every part of the United States where I've lived and worked.
>
> Mr. Horn should probably use whatever is customary in Germany.
I don't think it a good idea to use whatever is customary in Germany
when writing in English to someone in an English-speaking country, at
least not if the exclamation mark (!) is still used. If writing to a
company in the US, "Dear Sir or Madam," followed by a colon, is a bit
safer than just "Dear Sir[s]." I am not familiar with UK usage.
Bob Lieblich
Larry Krakauer
Stefan Horn wrote:
> I am searching for the right beginning of a business letter. Is there a
> difference in the use of
>
> 'Dear Sirs'
> and 'Dear Sir or Madam'?
>
> If so, where is it? Can I use the first one even if I am going to write
> to a company and I do not know who is getting my letter?
Oh, dear. There you are in Germany, asking a simple question,
and you've hit upon a difficult issue.
The standard correct form has traditionally been
"Dear Sirs;" or "Dear Sir;". Note the semicolon (;)
instead of a comma (,), and note that in English, there
is no space in front of the punctuation.
The modern problem is one of political correctness:
"Dear Sir" implies that the letter will be read by a man.
As many wish to avoid this implicit assumption,
"Dear Sir or Madam;" has become popular, and I have not
seen many object to its use.
I would say you can use either without being considered
incorrect. I don't think many will perceive a difference.
Let's see if you get other replies.
--
Larry Krakauer (lar...@kronos.com)
Brian J Goggin
>Stefan Horn wrote:
>> I am searching for the right beginning of a business letter. Is there a
>> difference in the use of
>>
>> 'Dear Sirs'
>> and 'Dear Sir or Madam'?
[...]
>The standard correct form has traditionally been
>"Dear Sirs;" or "Dear Sir;". Note the semicolon (;)
>instead of a comma (,), and note that in English, there
>is no space in front of the punctuation.
I have never seen a semi-colon used in any letter, business or other,
after the salutation. If anything was used, it was a comma, but
nowadays punctuation marks are often omitted. If I were to address Sir
or Madam, I would have neither comma nor semi-colon after "Madam".
I write of usage in Ireland; I do not know the practices of writers in
Britain, in other European countries or in the USA.
bjg
Albert Marshall
Mimi Kahn <njk...@mindspringerspaniel.com> wrote
>Larry Krakauer wrote:
>>Stefan Horn wrote:
>>> I am searching for the right beginning of a business letter. Is there a
>>> difference in the use of
>>>
>>> 'Dear Sirs'
>>> and 'Dear Sir or Madam'?
>>>
>>
>>The standard correct form has traditionally been
>>"Dear Sirs;" or "Dear Sir;". Note the semicolon (;)
>>instead of a comma (,), and note that in English, there
>>is no space in front of the punctuation.
>>
>
>I question the use of the semicolon. A colon customarily follows
>"Dear Sir" or whatever other salutation you decide upon, at least in
>every part of the United States where I've lived and worked.
>
>Mr. Horn should probably use whatever is customary in Germany.
>
However, it would seem likely that if he is writing in English his
corespondant is unlikey to be a German speaker.
In BrEnglish any "Dear..." salutation at the start of a letter is
normally followed by a comma.
--
Albert Marshall
Executive French
Language Training for Businesses in Kent
01634 400902
Brian J Goggin
On Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:23:24 +0000, Albert Marshall
<alb...@execfrog.demon.co.uk> wrote:
[...]
>In BrEnglish any "Dear..." salutation at the start of a letter is
>normally followed by a comma.
This may be changing. Godfrey Howard's *Macmillan Good English
Handbook* (1997), for example, recommends omitting the comma after the
salutation and after the sign-off ("Yours sincerely" etc). The *Plain
English Guide* by Martin Cutts (OUP 1995) does the same.
bjg
R. Lieblich
I'm afraid I can't add much to the discussion about punctuation, but I
would like to point out that I always write Dear Madam or Sir. I figure
if the recipient is a woman she might appreciate it, and if the
recipient is a man he won't notice it.
Rebecca Lieblich
(I think you all know my old man)
Thomas Schenk
Marshall A. Levin wrote:
>
> In article <347610...@chemie.uni-frankfurt.de>,> I always use "Dear Reader," but that is one of those situations in which I
> consider gender neutral language to be more important than proper style
> (although I would never use "they" as a singular replacement for "he" or
> "she").
That smacks of the 19th century British novelists' idiom of "Gentle
reader". My impulse would be to use the round filing cabinet reserved
for bulk mail and second class letters for any letter that started out
on such a footing. It's somewhat in the same genre as "Dear Friend".
Best regards,
Tom
--
*******************
Dr Thomas M Schenk
Laguna Beach, California
lanza
What about the old tried and true, "To Whom It May Concern" ("whom" so
far as I know is gender-neutral, unless you're addressing Whom Cronyn,
the actor.
--
********************************************
"Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand."
--LUCAS JACKSON
********************************************
Stan Brown
[posted and emailed]
In article <347610...@chemie.uni-frankfurt.de>, S.H...@chemie.uni-
frankfurt.de (Stefan Horn) wrote:
>Hallo,
>
>I am searching for the right beginning of a business letter. Is there a
>difference in the use of
>
> 'Dear Sirs'
>and 'Dear Sir or Madam'?
This was just beat to death within the last couple of weeks. Check Deja
News.
And since I weighed in during that debate I will manfully refrain from
repeating that "Dear Sir or Madam:" is the only safe opening for a
business letter sent to a company in the U.S. if you don't know the name
of the recipient.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA
http://www.concentric.net/%7eBrownsta/
Stan Brown
In article <347626...@mail.ncku.edu.tw>, la...@mail.ncku.edu.tw
>What about the old tried and true, "To Whom It May Concern" ("whom" so
>far as I know is gender-neutral, unless you're addressing Whom Cronyn,
>the actor.
I don't know about other areas, but in the U.S. it makes the sender look
stupid.
Stan Brown
In article <01bcf6ab$a1619a20$5b2e63c3@gateway>,
>In the UK a comma follows "Dear Sir" (NEVER a semicolon!)
>and the letter closes "Yours faithfully"
>
>If, on the other hand, you write to someone by name (eg Dear Mr Smith, )
>your letter should close "Yours sincerely"
>These are UK English conventions.
When I was a tot, we learned that "My Dear" was the normal opening for
letters in England. I infer that that's no longer true. Was it ever?
Marshall A. Levin
> 'Dear Sirs'
> and 'Dear Sir or Madam'?
Brian J Goggin
On Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:58:34 -0800, njk...@mindspringerspaniel.com
(Mimi Kahn) wrote:
>On Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:42:05 -0500, "R. Lieblich"
><rlie...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>>Rebecca Lieblich
>>(I think you all know my old man)
>
>I know, like, and admire him.
>
>Stick around.
Seconded.
bjg
Albert Marshall
Mimi Kahn <njk...@mindspringerspaniel.com> wrote
>Albert Marshall wrote:
>>Mimi Kahn <njk...@mindspringerspaniel.com> wrote
>>>
>>>I question the use of the semicolon. A colon customarily follows
>>>"Dear Sir" or whatever other salutation you decide upon, at least in
>>>every part of the United States where I've lived and worked.
>>>
>>>Mr. Horn should probably use whatever is customary in Germany.
>>>
>>Dear Ms Kahn,
>>
>>normally followed by a comma.
>
>
>AmEnglish includes a period after "Mr" since it is an abbreviation and
>a colon after the salutation, where you have used a comma.
>
>Such comparisons between British and American usage remain of extreme
>interest.
>
Dear Ms Kahn,
I agree that the fascination which reposes in the study of comparative
usage between the senior and cadet branches of the English language is a
never-ending source of entertainment and delight.
Further to your exposition quoted above, I would point out that British
practice in the case of contractions such as Mr, where the abbreviated
form ends with the ultimate letter of the complete word, is to dispense
with the use of a full stop. Words which are truncated to form
abbreviations are normally still accorded a full stop, which in this
usage effectively serves the function of a terminal apostrophe.
--
I beg to remain, Madam,
your most obedient servant,
Albert Marshall
Albert Marshall
Stan Brown <brow...@concentric.net> wrote
>Robert...@btinternet.com (Robert Clark) wrote:
>>In the UK a comma follows "Dear Sir" (NEVER a semicolon!)
>>and the letter closes "Yours faithfully"
>>
>>If, on the other hand, you write to someone by name (eg Dear Mr Smith, )
>>your letter should close "Yours sincerely"
>>These are UK English conventions.
>
>When I was a tot, we learned that "My Dear" was the normal opening for
>letters in England. I infer that that's no longer true. Was it ever?
>
I'll (charitably) assume that you haven't been taking correspondence
courses from BM and reply in more detail.
It could (and can) be used to people who actually *are* dear to you, but
I doubt if any English businessman would expect to be taken seriousl if
he addressed a customer or supplier as "My Dear Mr ...".
Even as a salutation to a close friend "My Dear ..." is seen as a tad
gushing, unless the writer is a little old lady of the Miss Marple
variety.
Isaac S. Hall
Stan Brown wrote in message ...
>In article <347626...@mail.ncku.edu.tw>, la...@mail.ncku.edu.tw
>(lanza) wrote:
>>What about the old tried and true, "To Whom It May Concern" ("whom" so
>>far as I know is gender-neutral, unless you're addressing Whom Cronyn,
>>the actor.
>
>I don't know about other areas, but in the U.S. it makes the sender look
>stupid.
I disagree. What makes the sender look stupid is to address the letter as
follows:
John M. Doe
Or Current Occupant
123 Main St.
Anytown, ST 12345
;-)
BitMan_Geek
Barbara Briggs
> Hallo,
>
> I am searching for the right beginning of a business letter. Is there a
> difference in the use of
>
> and 'Dear Sir or Madam'?
>
> to a company and I do not know who is getting my letter?
>
>
to receive the letter. I usually skip the "Dear" part since I normally
have no warm and endearing feelings towards the recipient (after all I
don't know who it is) and jump right into the meat of the matter.
Something like this.
Attn: So and So Company
Service Department Manager
Re: Account number #########
Customer name
Regarding the above referenced account (customer, previous letter or
whatever the case may be) blah blah blah so on and so on.
Thank you for your prompt assistance in this matter.
Sincerely
Barbara Briggs
"My Professional Title"
I don't care if the person receiving the letter is a man, woman, or
committee. The purpose of business correspondence is to make your
meaning clear and transact the business. I feel that if I wish to get
personal, I'll make a phone call and have a nice chat.
Frances Kemmish
Albert Marshall wrote:
> I beg to remain, Madam,
> your most obedient servant,
> Albert Marshall
Does anyone else remember the piece in 'That Was The Week That Was',
back in the early 60s, where Roy Kinnear and Lance Percival played civil
servants implementing new guidelines for official correspondence? I
recall that beginning a letter with 'Dear' excited suspicion; by the
time they got 'your obedient servant', all Lance Percival could say was
"Oh my God!".
FRan
Frances Kemmish
Albert Marshall wrote:
Fran
lanza
> What makes the sender look stupid is to address the letter as
> follows:
>
> John M. Doe
> Or Current Occupant
> 123 Main St.
> Anytown, ST 12345
>
> ;-)
>
> BitMan_Geek
What about:
Grandma
c/o Her Home
Next to McDonald's
Our Home Town.
lanza
> >I don't know about other areas, but in the U.S. it makes the sender look
> >stupid.
know so much about the US? Have you done a longitudinal study on this
issue? How do you so confidently sum up the continental US in a single
line like that? You "don't know about other areas" BUT you DO KNOW
about the US! I wish I had your knowledge--and your confidence!
Ross Howard
On Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:46:50 GMT, b...@wordwrights.ie (Brian J Goggin)
wrote:
>On Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:23:24 +0000, Albert Marshall
><alb...@execfrog.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>In BrEnglish any "Dear..." salutation at the start of a letter is
>>normally followed by a comma.
>
>This may be changing. Godfrey Howard's *Macmillan Good English
>Handbook* (1997), for example, recommends omitting the comma after the
>salutation and after the sign-off ("Yours sincerely" etc). The *Plain
>English Guide* by Martin Cutts (OUP 1995) does the same.
>
>bjg
The typists' convention of omitting end-of-line punctuation in all
"formula" text in business letters seemed to come in at exactly the
same time as the one that started justifying everything on the left.
Brian's right. Both are now if not the norm, extremely common in
British business correspondence.
[Then:]
--------------------------------------------------------------------
C.D. Jones, Esq.,
Company Ltd.,
123, High St.,
Townchester.
23 November, 1997
Dear Mr. Jones,
I write with regard to [...]
---------------------------------------------------------------------
[Now:]
C D Jones
Company Ltd
123 High St
Townchester
23 November 1997
Dear Mr Jones
I write with regard to [...]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yours etc
Ross Howard
-----------
There's a number in my e-mail address. Subtract four from it to reply.
Barbara Herrick
The "Or Current Occupant" line does look stupid. But we found it
necessary to use it in our bookstore's bulk mailings. We preferred that,
if the named occupant had moved, the current occupant should receive our
notices about books. This is third class mail; without this line in the
address the mailperson would simply discard the item.
I'm using past tense as unfortunately our bookstore has closed.
Barbara Herrick
Buffalo, New York
Mike Page
On Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:51:02 GMT, rho...@mx7.redestb.es (Ross Howard)
wrote:
>
>The typists' convention of omitting end-of-line punctuation in all
>"formula" text in business letters seemed to come in at exactly the
>same time as the one that started justifying everything on the left.
>Brian's right. Both are now if not the norm, extremely common in
>British business correspondence.
>
>[Now:]
>
>C D Jones
>Company Ltd
>123 High St
>Townchester
>
>23 November 1997
>
>Dear Mr Jones
>
>I write with regard to [...]
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
This convention arose, I believe, from an efficiency study carried out
for the British Civil Service. The new style's most notable
adherehents were the Inland Revenue, who further improved the look of
their correspondence by conducting it on what looks like recycled
newsprint of miniscule size.
However after some time the Revenue discovered it was even more
efficient if people just wrote the letters long hand so that the typed
letter became uncommon, at least for short communications.
Now the computer does everything including threatening legal
proceedings, even when you have paid. The introduction of
self-assessment has provided many new opportunities for cock-ups.
Mike Page
Let the ape escape for e-mail
Mark Baker
In article <347967cf...@news.redestb.es>,
rho...@mx7.redestb.es (Ross Howard) writes:
> C.D. Jones, Esq.,
> Company Ltd.,
Are you sure about the dot after ltd? Since the d is the last letter of
`limited' I wouldn't expect to see a dot there at all.
> 123, High St.,
> Townchester.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> C D Jones
> Company Ltd
> 123 High St
> Townchester
The omission of the commas at the ends of the lines is just a typographical
difference. The comma after the number I find more interesting. If you were
reading the address aloud, you would pause after each line but not after the
number. Did addresses used to be read differently, or did the comma not
reflect the way they were read?
> 23 November 1997
Here again, I would read this without a pause, and so find the comma after
the month in the old form to be surprising.
Markus Laker
mba...@iee.org (Mark Baker):
> In article <347967cf...@news.redestb.es>,
> rho...@mx7.redestb.es (Ross Howard) writes:
> > 123, High St.,
> > Townchester.
> The omission of the commas at the ends of the lines is just a typographical
> difference. The comma after the number I find more interesting. If you were
> reading the address aloud, you would pause after each line but not after the
> number. Did addresses used to be read differently, or did the comma not
> reflect the way they were read?
As a young child I was taught to leave a comma at the end of every line
except the last, which had a full stop, and another comma between the
house number and the name of the road. When addresses were read out
there was a perceptible pause after the house number. These days I
consider the comma after the house number to be an anachronism and the
punctuation at the end of each line to be optional.
Markus Laker
--
My real address doesn't include a Christian name.
Emailed copies of responses are very much appreciated.
Peter Somlo
mba...@iee.org (Mark Baker) wrote:
>In article <347967cf...@news.redestb.es>,
> rho...@mx7.redestb.es (Ross Howard) writes:
>
>> C.D. Jones, Esq.,
>> Company Ltd.,
>
>Are you sure about the dot after ltd? Since the d is the last letter of
>`limited' I wouldn't expect to see a dot there at all.
>
>> 123, High St.,
>> Townchester.
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> C D Jones
>> Company Ltd
>> 123 High St
>> Townchester
>
>The omission of the commas at the ends of the lines is just a typographical
>difference. The comma after the number I find more interesting. If you were
>reading the address aloud, you would pause after each line but not after the
>number. Did addresses used to be read differently, or did the comma not
>reflect the way they were read?
>
>> 23 November 1997
>
>Here again, I would read this without a pause, and so find the comma after
>the month in the old form to be surprising.
Two schools of thought. I use the dot to indicate that the 'word' has
been abbreviated; e.g. Dr. or Ltd. - even if the last letter is
printed.
(Otherwise how would we show abbreviation? - I better put on my
asbestos suit...)
Peter
_____________________________________________________________________
Dr Peter I Somlo FIEEE | M1: "Every coin has 3 sides - at least"
Microwave Consultant | M2: "The wind ain't gonna blow from where it
tel/fax: 61-2-9451-2478| ought'a, it'l blow from where it can"
Mobile: 041-926-3168 | WWW:<http://www.zeta.org.au/~somlo>
Mike Barnes
In alt.usage.english, Ross Howard <rho...@mx7.redestb.es> spake
thuswise:
>[Then:]
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>C.D. Jones, Esq.,
>Company Ltd.,
>Townchester.
>
>
> 23 November, 1997
Not "23rd November, 1997" (with possibly superscripted "rd")?
--
-- Mike Barnes, Stockport, England.
-- If you post a response to Usenet, please *don't* send me a copy by e-mail.
Ross Howard
mba...@iee.org (Mark Baker) wrote:
>In article <347967cf...@news.redestb.es>,
> rho...@mx7.redestb.es (Ross Howard) writes:
>
>> C.D. Jones, Esq.,
>> Company Ltd.,
>
>Are you sure about the dot after ltd? Since the d is the last letter of
>`limited' I wouldn't expect to see a dot there at all.
That was the "before" style. But I still often see a full stop after
"Ltd" in business and legal documents.
The omission of a full stop after abbreviations that include the last
letter of the abbreviated word was just one of Fowler's quirks. And,
as with his lobbying for for "-ize", if he'd stood for an election on
the issue he would have lost his deposit.
I've never known a single secretary -- and I've known some who were
admirably pernickity about punctuation -- who addressed letters to
"Rev. Jones, 123 Oxford St" but "Mr Jones, 123 Oxford Rd".
Ross Howard
Ross Howard
On Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:14:42 GMT, rho...@mx7.redestb.es (Ross Howard)
wrote:
>I've never known a single secretary -- and I've known some who were
>admirably pernickity about punctuation -- who addressed letters to
>"Rev. Jones, 123 Oxford St" but "Mr Jones, 123 Oxford Rd".
That should of course be "Rev. Jones, 123 Oxford St."
Mark Baker
In article <347adf16...@news.redestb.es>,
rho...@mx7.redestb.es (Ross Howard) writes:
> That should of course be "Rev. Jones, 123 Oxford St."
You think that the t of `St' is the first one in `street'? I'd always
thought it was the second.
Mike Page
On Tue, 25 Nov 1997 06:10:07 GMT, so...@zeta.org.au (Peter Somlo)
wrote:
>mba...@iee.org (Mark Baker) wrote:
>
>>In article <347967cf...@news.redestb.es>,
>> rho...@mx7.redestb.es (Ross Howard) writes:
>>
>>> C.D. Jones, Esq.,
>>> Company Ltd.,
>>
>>Are you sure about the dot after ltd? Since the d is the last letter of
>>`limited' I wouldn't expect to see a dot there at all.
IIRC, the permitted forms of abbreviation for 'limited' were laid down
by British Companies Acts of various vintages. I'll check.
Evan Kirshenbaum
mba...@iee.org (Mark Baker) writes:
> In article <347adf16...@news.redestb.es>,
> rho...@mx7.redestb.es (Ross Howard) writes:
>
> > That should of course be "Rev. Jones, 123 Oxford St."
>
> You think that the t of `St' is the first one in `street'? I'd
> always thought it was the second.
I think I've always considered it to be the first, but I'm willing to
believe that etymologically it is the second, by analogy with "Rd."
(road), "Bd." (boulevard), "Ct." (court), and "Wy." (way). I think
I've seen "Str." as well, though, which would reinforce the notion
that it was the first. On the other hand, I'm fairly certain that the
e of "Ave." is the first one.
Other abbreviations in the US appear to be split
boulevard: "Bvd.", "Blvd."
canyon: "Cyn."
freeway: "Fwy."
terrace: "Ter.", "Terr."
circle: "Cir.", "Circ."
place: "Pl."
park: "Pk."
(And, of course, there are regional variations.)
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |_Bauplan_ is just the German word
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |for blueprint. Typically, one
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |switches languages to indicate
|profundity.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | Richard Dawkins
(650)857-7572
Mike Ford
On 25 Nov 1997 17:57:06 -0000, mba...@iee.org (Mark Baker)
wrote:
>In article <347adf16...@news.redestb.es>,
> rho...@mx7.redestb.es (Ross Howard) writes:
>
>> That should of course be "Rev. Jones, 123 Oxford St."
>
>You think that the t of `St' is the first one in `street'? I'd always
>thought it was the second.
No, "St" is an abbreviation for "Saint"; "St." is definitely
"Street".
In the same way, "Dr" stands for "Doctor", and "Dr." stands for
"Drive".
-- --
Mike Ford m...@mcgoff.karoo.co.uk
Leeds, UK