"Hosed?"
Steve R. Van Dien
A couple of my friends have used "hosed" to describe off-the-deep-end
attitudes and sloppy thinking, e.g. "I heard Clinton's speech, and he's
hosed," or "Limbaugh was pretty hosed today."
Has anybody else heard this usage? Especially those of you from
*outside* the Midwest? I'm wondering whether it's a regionalism --
Steve Van Dien
Glen Ecklund
Well, I'm from the Midwest, and I've always considered it to mean "messed up".
I assume that it means "fucked", and therefore can mean practically anything.
There sure are lots of sexual references that lots of people don't
seem to recognise as such:
screwed, hosed, shafted, buggered, and perhaps bloody.
My main objection to them is that they seem to equate sex with violence.
--
Glen Ecklund gl...@cs.wisc.edu (608) 262-1318 Office, 262-1204 Dept. Sec'y
Department of Computer Sciences 1210 W. Dayton St., Room 3355
University of Wisconsin, Madison Madison, Wis. 53706 U.S.A.
Mastersmith Encil
: There sure are lots of sexual references that lots of people don't
: seem to recognise as such:
: screwed, hosed, shafted, buggered, and perhaps bloody.
Regardless of whether people think of 'screwed' or 'shafted' as sexual (I
suspect they do), I feel obligated to point out that "bloody" is a
shortening of "by our Lady" and is therefore religious, not sexual.
(Shame people use this and not "Zounds" any more. I'd love to hear
someone say "zounds" again...)
Oh, BTW--I've heard 'hosed' in that sense, but I'm in Minnesota, so it
doesn't count. :-)
--Lance
David Casseres
writes:
> Regardless of whether people think of 'screwed' or 'shafted' as sexual (I
> suspect they do), I feel obligated to point out that "bloody" is a
> shortening of "by our Lady" and is therefore religious, not sexual.
Dear me, do people still believe this one?
-------------
David Casseres
Exclaimer: Hey!
Daniel E Damouth
The word 'hosed' is pretty common slang in my dialect; I grew up in
Rochester, NY, State College, PA, and Ann Arbor, Michigan. But (for me)
it doesn't quite mean what you say, but rather, "totally fucked" (broken,
or otherwise screwed up). So we would say "the printer in hosed", or
"the country is hosed", for examples. Someone can actively 'hose'
something, too, e.g. "Clinton hosed the economy".
-Dan Damouth
Rick Pali
SRVD> A couple of my friends have used "hosed" to describe
SRVD> off-the-deep-end attitudes and sloppy thinking, e.g. "I heard
Clinton's
SRVD> speech, and he's hosed," or "Limbaugh was pretty hosed today."
Has
SRVD> anybody else heard this usage? Especially those of you from *outside*
SRVD> the Midwest? I'm wondering whether it's a regionalism --
The word may have a Canadian origin. There was a TV show that used that phrase
and it seemed to have caught on and it still used somewhat.
In these parts it tends to be used more as an indicator of loss. "I got hosed
in that deal" meaning that you didn't get a good deal would be common. Replace
'hosed' with 'screwed' and you've got a good approximation.
Rick.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CRITICAL MASS rick...@rochgte.fidonet.org Internet
the home of ECSTASY 1:163/328 FidoNet
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Evan Kirshenbaum
>Glen Ecklund (gl...@slate.cs.wisc.edu) wrote:
>: There sure are lots of sexual references that lots of people don't
>: seem to recognise as such:
>: screwed, hosed, shafted, buggered, and perhaps bloody.
>
>Regardless of whether people think of 'screwed' or 'shafted' as sexual (I
>suspect they do), I feel obligated to point out that "bloody" is a
>shortening of "by our Lady" and is therefore religious, not sexual.
"The popular derivation from _by'r Lady_ has many times been exploded."
Peter Fryer, _Mrs. Grundy_, London House & Maxwell, 1963, p. 66
But he doesn't impute any sexual connotation to it. He also quotes:
The American is frankly puzzled by the attitude of the refined
Englishman toward this word, and inquiry generally elicits the
information that the word is frightfully vulgar, not because of
any hidden meaning attached to it, but because it is used by
frightfully vulgar people.
Semper, _English Journal_, Apr. 1929, p. 303
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories | A handgun is like a Lawyer. You
3500 Deer Creek Road, Building 26U | don't want it lying around where
Palo Alto, CA 94304 | the children might be exposed to
| it, but when you need one, you need
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | it RIGHT NOW, and nothing else will
(415)857-7572 | do.
| Bill McNutt
Laura Johnson
hosed." "It's hosed. Hit the power switch." This is in Colorado.
I don't think I've ever heard it used by non-engineers.
--
Laura Johnson (lau...@fc.hp.com)
Learning Products Engineer
Hewlett Packard NSMD
Fort Collins, Colorado
Gary Sloane
showed up at Sun Microsystems, it prompted a contest
for best caption. The winner was, "If you're gonna
be hosed, it might as well be by Unix."
Pathetic but true.
(Passive voice flames to email, please.)
--
Gary Sloane slo...@adoc.xerox.com
"ERRATA: For `errata' read `erratum'"
Mastersmith Encil
: "The popular derivation from _by'r Lady_ has many times been exploded."
: Peter Fryer, _Mrs. Grundy_, London House & Maxwell, 1963, p. 66
I refer you to my disclaimer: "I'm probably wrong." (I think I included
it in the post you replied to--but if not, see the disclaimer. ;-) )
Anyway, I wish that the editors of all my Shakespeare texts had read
Fryer's book _before_ printing footnotes. And that poor etymology, being
exploded so many times! Even crash-test dummies get retired! ;-)
So if I _was_ wrong, where _does_ it come from? 'His bloody wounds'?
Too many people referring to 'the bloody corpse lying out there'? :-)
-Lance
(Insert standard disclaimer here--see above)
David Crowson
-->31 Mar 94 19:34, Steve R. Van Dien wrote:
-->
--> SRVD> A couple of my friends have used "hosed" to describe
--> SRVD> off-the-deep-end attitudes and sloppy thinking, e.g. "I heard
-->Clinton's
--> SRVD> speech, and he's hosed," or "Limbaugh was pretty hosed today."
-->Has
--> SRVD> anybody else heard this usage? Especially those of you from *outside*
--> SRVD> the Midwest? I'm wondering whether it's a regionalism --
-->
-->The word may have a Canadian origin. There was a TV show that used that phrase
-->
[chomp]
I believe you are referring to Bob and Doug and their satirical mimic of Canadians. They were,
AFAIK, comedians and released a record a called 'take-off'. Their act comprised of saying
'take off hose-head' and adding 'eh' to end of every sentence.(and drinking lots of beer).
I think they might've had a TV show, but I could be wrong.
---
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Crowson =%^) |"For my part, I travel not to go anywhere, but to go.
Oracle DBA(Ver.4,5,6,7)| I travel for travel's sake. The great affair is to
Amoco Exploration | move, to get down off this featherbed of civilisation
Ealing, London, UK. | and to find the globe granite underneath and strewn
"My views not Amoex's" | with cutting flints" : Robert Louis Stevenson
William R. Ward
)-->The word may have a Canadian origin. There was a TV show that used
)-->that phrase and it seemed to have caught on and it still used
)-->somewhat.
)
) I believe you are referring to Bob and Doug and their satirical
) mimic of Canadians. They were, AFAIK, comedians and released a
) record a called 'take-off'. Their act comprised of saying 'take off
) hose-head' and adding 'eh' to end of every sentence.(and drinking
) lots of beer). I think they might've had a TV show, but I could be
) wrong.
[By the way, please limit yourself to no more than 78 character wide
lines, to make sure it fits on everyone's screens...]
Yes, Bob and Doug MacKenzie. They produced several albums, were on
the "SCTV" television program (Rick Moranis, who later went on to such
wonderful heights as "Honey, I Blew Up The Kids", and some other guy
whose name I forget), and also a film called "Strange Brew."
--Bill.
--
William R Ward __o __o 1803 Mission St. #339
Bay View Software and Consulting _-\<,-\<,_ Santa Cruz CA 95060 USA
Voicemail +1 408/479-4072 (_)/---/ (_) her...@cats.ucsc.edu
The Hermitage BBS +1 408/457-1357 (300-2400 baud, MNP/5, 8/N/1)
William R. Ward
)-->The word may have a Canadian origin. There was a TV show that used
)-->that phrase and it seemed to have caught on and it still used
)-->somewhat.
)
) I believe you are referring to Bob and Doug and their satirical
) mimic of Canadians. They were, AFAIK, comedians and released a
) record a called 'take-off'. Their act comprised of saying 'take off
) hose-head' and adding 'eh' to end of every sentence.(and drinking
) lots of beer). I think they might've had a TV show, but I could be
) wrong.
[By the way, please limit yourself to no more than 78 character wide
lines, to make sure it fits on everyone's screens...]
Yes, Bob and Doug MacKenzie. They produced several albums, were on
the "SCTV" television program (Rick Moranis, who later went on to such
wonderful heights as "Honey, I Blew Up The Kids", and some other guy
whose name I forget), and also a film called "Strange Brew."
I doubt this has anything to do with "hosed", but they used the term
"hoser" all the time.
Chris Malcolm
it meant "pissed on", and of the local people I've asked, that seems
to be the general consensus.
--
Chris Malcolm c...@uk.ac.ed.aifh +44 (0)31 650 3085
Department of Artificial Intelligence, Edinburgh University
5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK DoD #205
"The mind reigns, but does not govern" -- Paul Valery
C D Crumley
>Nobody has mentioned what "hosed" actaully means. I've always supposed
>it meant "pissed on", and of the local people I've asked, that seems
>to be the general consensus.
>--
Hosed has a general sense of being defeated, humiliated or otherwise
downtrodden by another person or by a situation. It probably gets this new
meaning from being "pissed on. " As far as I can tell we use it to
mean drunk as well but what's up with that
>Chris Malcolm c...@uk.ac.ed.aifh +44 (0)31 650 3085
>Department of Artificial Intelligence, Edinburgh University
>5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK DoD #205
The mind reigns, but does not govern" -- Paul Valery
******************************************************************************
C D Crumley Somebody Castrated
<n914...@henson.cc.wwu.edu> my UNIX!!!!!!!
10 Lower Highland Hall
Bellingham WA 98225
206 - 650-6659
******************************************************************************
{DISCLAIMER TO FOLLOW}
The opinions expressed by Clinton Crumley are not necessarily those of
Western Washington University, the Faculty and Staff of the aforementioned
institution or the State of Washington or any of its departments.
******************************************************************************
rm...@netcom.com
: I hear it a lot in my workplace. "Your code is hosed." "The printer's
I, too, had the impression it began, or at least found its widest use,
among engineers, though lately I've heard it repeated in the general
population. The Hacker's Dictionary devotes a paragraph or so to it, but
fails to explain its genesis. What the engineers mean by "hosed" is
conveyed perfectly by Laura's examples: The mechanism (printer, code,
chip, whatever) is out of order. Off the hinges. On the blink. Gone all to
hell. Busted. Buggered. Bollixed. Which puts me in mind of another
favorite expression of some computer engineers I've known--"balls out,"
and its intensification, "balls to the wall." Both refer to speed, as in,
"For balls-to-the-wall performance, we doubled the clock rate and added a
graphics coprocessor." Wonderfully vivid phrases, I think. Any
speculation as to origins?
Adrian Pepper
in article <Cnu3o...@festival.ed.ac.uk>:
>Nobody has mentioned what "hosed" actaully means. I've always supposed
>it meant "pissed on", and of the local people I've asked, that seems
>to be the general consensus.
I've usually seen it used to describe the state of something, and it
seems to represent a stage or two less disastrous than FUBAR. I think
the _New Hacker's Dictionary_ provides a definition, but I lent my copy
to an English prof. ^^^^
Or should I say "lended" for American audiences?
The OED2 has a couple of archaic definitions which it might be humorous
to try and apply. But how about just imagining using a garden hose on
a typical piece of computer equipment?
Adrian.
Rick Pali
--> SRVD>> A couple of my friends have used "hosed" to describe
--> SRVD>> off-the-deep-end attitudes and sloppy thinking
-->> The word may have a Canadian origin. There was a TV show that used that
-->> phrase and it seemed to have caught on and it still used somewhat.
DC> I believe you are referring to Bob and Doug and their satirical mimic of
DC> Canadians.
Yes, the very ones. I just didn't want to go into a lot of detail because I
didn't think anyone would be interested.
DC> They were, AFAIK, comedians and released a record a called
DC> 'take-off'.
Bob and Doug were played by Dave Thomas and Rick Moranis, both of which have
furthered their careers since that time.
DC> Their act comprised of saying 'take off hose-head' and adding
DC> 'eh' to end of every sentence.(and drinking lots of beer). I think they
DC> might've had a TV show, but I could be wrong.
They, and these characters appeared on the 'Second City Television Network' or
SCTV which was a comedy television show that run up here for a good while and
even made it into the US for a time. A good number of the comedians we enjoy
today started on SCTV...
Charles Mitchell
arpe...@math.uwaterloo.ca (Adrian Pepper) writes:
>c...@castle.ed.ac.uk (Chris Malcolm) wrote,
> (concerning "hosed")
>I've usually seen it used to describe the state of something, and it
>seems to represent a stage or two less disastrous than FUBAR. I think
>the _New Hacker's Dictionary_ provides a definition, but I lent my copy
>to an English prof. ^^^^
> Or should I say "lended" for American audiences?
>
get everything right in an unfamiliar dialect. It's true that there
are several verbs where Americans use an "ed" past tense and the
Brits use one in "t" (notably in this newsgroup, spelled vs spelt)
but this isn't one of them.)
An American equivalent of this is trying to get it straight
as to just which words the British use "ah" in (as in "ahsk" vs
our sometimes harsh "ask") and which they don't. I'm not going to
embarrass myself by giving an example (exahmple), because I would
be bound to get it wrong. I once heard someone (not a native English
speaker) say he had a problem with "ahnts" in his kitchen, meaning
insects, not elderly female relatives. It sounded weird to me
(who would in fact pronounce the relatives like the insects), and
I believe would to an English person also.
I'd better stop there. There are lots of traps in this sort of
thing.
Charlie
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Charles Mitchell Academic Information Systems
Phone: 212 854-5023 201 Philosophy
si...@cuvmc.bitnet Columbia University
si...@cuvmc.cc.columbia.edu New York, NY 10027
Murray Jorgensen
In New Zealand we have the expression "Home and hosed", which means
something like "Bob's your uncle", or, ironically "Home and dry". It
means that you have essentially achieved what you set out to do. In
this context I have interpreted "hosed" as "showered", ie you have
washed off the dirt of the journey.
Murray Jorgensen, Department of Mathematics and Statistics,
University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand. [m...@waikato.ac.nz]
______________________________________________________________________
Hey! Look at this!
The survivors are the ones we had time to get the water to.
None of the eighteen other variables that we recorded were significant.
Adrian Pepper
in article <16F9113D...@CUVMC.AIS.COLUMBIA.EDU>:
>In article <CnwI8...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca> of Thu, 7 Apr 1994 18:05:02 GMT
>arpe...@math.uwaterloo.ca (Adrian Pepper) writes:
>>c...@castle.ed.ac.uk (Chris Malcolm) wrote,
>> (concerning "hosed")
>>I've usually seen it used to describe the state of something, and it
>>seems to represent a stage or two less disastrous than FUBAR. I think
>>the _New Hacker's Dictionary_ provides a definition, but I lent my copy
>>to an English prof. ^^^^
>> Or should I say "lended" for American audiences?
>>
> We don't - why should you? (Illustrating the hazards ot trying to
>get everything right in an unfamiliar dialect. It's true that there
>are several verbs where Americans use an "ed" past tense and the
>Brits use one in "t" (notably in this newsgroup, spelled vs spelt)
>but this isn't one of them.)
>
Now thou'st been and gone and done and spoilt it!
Adrian.
P. K. W. Tan (Dr)
: We don't - why should you? (Illustrating the hazards ot trying to
: get everything right in an unfamiliar dialect. It's true that there
: are several verbs where Americans use an "ed" past tense and the
: Brits use one in "t" (notably in this newsgroup, spelled vs spelt)
: but this isn't one of them.)
:
: [... and so on ...]
Yes, quite with LEARNT/LEARNED, SPOILT/SPOILED, LEANT/LEANED,
DEALT/DEALED, KNELT/KNEELED.
But what about DIVED/DOVE and the now-famous GOT/GOTTEN?
And Americans/Canadians don't always seem to make a difference
between TO LIE (`I want to lie down', intransitive), and
TO LAY (`I want to lay the table', transitive).
I lie down/I lay down (past)/I have lain down (perfective)
I lay the table/I laid the table (past)/I have laid the table
(perfective)
Do you use the above range?
Peter Tan[A
Dr. Kevin Robinson; (BIOL; FAC)
: between TO LIE (`I want to lie down', intransitive), and
: TO LAY (`I want to lay the table', transitive).
: I lie down/I lay down (past)/I have lain down (perfective)
: I lay the table/I laid the table (past)/I have laid the table
: (perfective)
: Do you use the above range?
Sounds good to me, but I'm no linguist. Are we actually talking about two
distinct verbs here, or the use of certain particibles of the same verb (ie
to lie)?
+-----------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
+ Kev Robinson +No experiment is ever a total failure, it+
+ Dept of Biol. Sci. + can always serve as a negative example +
+ University of Maryland +-----------------------------------------+
+ Baltimore, MD 21228, USA + Nil Carborundum Illegitimus ! +
+-----------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
tha...@desire.wright.edu
> : I lay the table/I laid the table (past)/I have laid the table
> : (perfective)
>
> : Do you use the above range?
ouch! personally, if given a choice, i'd rather hug a tree than lay a table.
(ob. smiley here)
-----ted hayes
Laura Johnson
: Yes, quite with LEARNT/LEARNED, SPOILT/SPOILED, LEANT/LEANED,
: DEALT/DEALED, KNELT/KNEELED.
I've never heard "dealed" or "kneeled", and have lived in the U.S.
all my life.
: And Americans/Canadians don't always seem to make a difference
: between TO LIE (`I want to lie down', intransitive), and
: TO LAY (`I want to lay the table', transitive).
Actually we say, "to set the table". ;->
"I want to lay down" and similar phrases are often heard here, but
are considered wrong, to the best of my knowledge. I would not use
them in writing or formal speech. "Lay down" is becoming so common,
however, that it may be "accepted" usage before long.
Susan F Bradley
>P. K. W. Tan (Dr) (ellt...@leonis.nus.sg) wrote:
>: Yes, quite with LEARNT/LEARNED, SPOILT/SPOILED, LEANT/LEANED,
>: DEALT/DEALED, KNELT/KNEELED.
>I've never heard "dealed" or "kneeled", and have lived in the U.S.
>all my life.
I second that. And along these lines: what do others in the group use as
the past tense of "loan?" It seems to me like "lent" used to be the most
commonly used past tense, but these days people seem to say "loaned" all the
time. And what's with this lighted business? Isn't the past tense of "light"
supposed to be "lit?" (i.e., "He lit a match.")
--
Sooz Bradley But, belly, God send thee good ale enough
W.E.N.C.H. Whether it be new or old.
ISU chapter president -John Still, Bishop of Bath & Wells (16th C)
William R. Ward
) And Americans/Canadians don't always seem to make a difference
) between TO LIE (`I want to lie down', intransitive), and
) TO LAY (`I want to lay the table', transitive).
Lay the *table*?!?! That doesn't make sense to me at all.
If you mean distributing flatware and dishes and such, then I would
call that "setting" the table. I've never heard of it as "laying"...
I'm American, and I suspect that you're referring to a British idiom.
The use of "lay" vs. "lie" that I always learn{t,ed} was "chickens
lay, people lie." Thus whenever the subject is a person, use "lie";
else use "lay."
--Bill.
--
William R Ward __o __o 1803 Mission St. #339
Bay View Software and Consulting _-\<,-\<,_ Santa Cruz CA 95060 USA
Voicemail +1 408/479-4072 (_)/---/ (_) her...@cats.ucsc.edu
Call my tree-structured BBS: +1 408/457-1357 (300-2400 baud, MNP/5, 8/N/1)
(Finger her...@ucscb.ucsc.edu for PGP public key)
Philipp Rosenau
Susan F Bradley <so...@iastate.edu> wrote:
> [...]
>I second that. And along these lines: what do others in the group use as
>the past tense of "loan?" It seems to me like "lent" used to be the most
>commonly used past tense, but these days people seem to say "loaned" all the
>time. And what's with this lighted business? Isn't the past tense of "light"
>supposed to be "lit?" (i.e., "He lit a match.")
>
Concerning `light', my dictionary gives `light - lighted,lit - lighted,lit'
so that both versions seem to be correct. But maybe there are local
differences in usage?
`lent' belongs to `lend - lent - lent' (Would you lend me some money,
please.), `loan' is a word on its own (marked as American in my
dictionary if used as a verb).
Philipp
Raphael Mankin
>
> No, no; you've taken a sensible mnemonic and twisted it. If chickens
> were capable of assuming a prone position, they'd be *lying* down. If
> people were capable of producing eggs, they would *lay* them. Dogs
> lie down, for instance; fish lay eggs; Britons lay tables; you can't
> use the subject as a determiner.
But we often omit the object when saying that "chickens lay" in order
to indicate that they do this habitually or are doing it now. You may
therefore well find a sentence like "Chickens lay more in summer than
in winter" which is both correct and meaningful.
--
Raphael Mankin There are few situations in life that cannot
be resolved promptly, and to the satisfaction
of all concerned, by either suicide, a bag of
gold, or thrusting a despised antagonist over
a precipice on a dark night.
Ernest Bramah (Kai Lung stories)
Peter Campbell Smith
> supposed to be "lit?" (i.e., "He lit a match.")
In article <2ojkm9$j...@sun0.urz.uni-heidelberg.de>,
phi...@jessica.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de (Philipp Rosenau) wrote:
> Concerning `light', my dictionary gives `light - lighted,lit - lighted,lit'
> so that both versions seem to be correct. But maybe there are local
> differences in usage?
> [...]
I would say that in modern British usage 'lit' is preferred if it is an
imperfect verb ('He lit a match') and both are used for the perfect ('He
has lit a fire'/'She has lighted a fire'). There might just be a shade of
difference in meaning here: 'He has lit a fire' meaning that it is one of
his past accomplishments ('Bill is an expert camper: he has even lit a fire
in a thunderstorm') whereas 'She has lighted a fire' suggests that she just
did it.
I think 'lighted' is somewhat preferred if the participle is used as an
attributive adjective ('He dropped a lighted match') but 'lit' reappears if
the adjective is predicative ('The street was well lit').
Peter
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Peter Campbell Smith, Logica plc, London. Voice: +44 71 637 9111
Fax: +44 71 344 3638 Internet: campb...@lish.logica.com
chab...@vms1.bham.ac.uk
> what do others in the group use as
> the past tense of "loan?"
The use of `loan' as a verb is more common by Americans than
by English - who would use the word `lend'.
Tony Chabot
Peter Moylan
It appears, however, that Americans use both words - loan and lend
- as verbs. Is there a subtle difference of meaning, or are they
synonyms?
I've occasionally seen "loan" as a verb in Australia, but I
can't think of any examples where it means something different
from "lend".
--
Peter Moylan pe...@ee.newcastle.edu.au
(also pe...@tesla.newcastle.edu.au, ee...@cc.newcastle.edu.au)
Richard Carr
Someone wrote:
>> Or should I say "lended" for American audiences?
Who is it that say "loaned", or generally use loan as a verb? I know I've heard
it.
Cheers, Rich.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------- I disclaim all responsibility to put a disclaimer here. -----------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adrian Pepper
in article <sooz.76...@vincent2.iastate.edu>:
>In <Co7p2...@fc.hp.com> lau...@cnd.hp.com (Laura Johnson) writes:
>
>>P. K. W. Tan (Dr) (ellt...@leonis.nus.sg) wrote:
>
>>: Yes, quite with LEARNT/LEARNED, SPOILT/SPOILED, LEANT/LEANED,
>>: DEALT/DEALED, KNELT/KNEELED.
>
>>I've never heard "dealed" or "kneeled", and have lived in the U.S.
>>all my life.
>
>I second that. And along these lines: what do others in the group use as
>the past tense of "loan?" It seems to me like "lent" used to be the most
>commonly used past tense, but these days people seem to say "loaned" all the
>time.
>
Except before Easter.
The OED2 claims that using "loan" as a verb is "Now chiefly U.S."
Adrian.
Wendy Seltzer
>[deleted]
>The two verbs are different though related.
>`lay' means `to make something lie'.
>There are more pairs like this:
>`set' and `sit', `fall' and `fell' (fell a tree)
>are the only ones in English I can think of right now (I'd like to
>see more).
I think 'raise' and 'rise' fit into the same pairing. 'Lay' and 'lie'
just seem to get confused more easily due to the crossings of their past
tenses. I had never thought of other similar pairs before, though.
Wendy
> Their German correspondences are `sitzen', `setzen'
>and `fallen', `f"allen' (can't represent the Umlaut properly).
>A Latin example is `cadere' and `caedere' meaning `to fall'
>and `to kill' in the sense of `make fall'.
>There are (Latin) technical terms for this situation of which I can only
>remember one: `lay' is the verbum incohativum to `lie',
>`incohativum' meaning something like `inducing,causing'.
[...]
>Philipp
Michael F. Howard
: Who is it that say "loaned", or generally use loan as a verb? I know I've heard
: it.
: Cheers, Rich.
In California, we say "loaned" and use "loan" as a verb.
--
Mike Howard |"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure
mi...@netcom.com | and the intelligent are full of doubt." Bertrand Russell
71043,2315 |
Lee Rudolph
>It appears, however, that Americans use both words - loan and lend
>- as verbs. Is there a subtle difference of meaning, or are they
>synonyms?
I used to say loaned, but I gave it up for Lent.
Lee Rudolph
P.S. When I thought of the joke, independently but no doubt not originally,
35 years ago, my understanding of "the subtle difference of meaning"
was that it was purely what I have since learned to call a difference
in speech register: hillbillies said loaned, teachers wanted you to say
lent. I may in fact have learned (learnt?) this particular non-standard
form from my teachers, as I learned the pronunciation of "deaf" (to rhyme
with "thief") and "once" (with a final t) from them.
Kevin Wald
>In article <2ojihj$i...@sun0.urz.uni-heidelberg.de> phi...@jessica.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de (Philipp Rosenau) writes:
>
>>[deleted]
>>The two verbs are different though related.
>>`lay' means `to make something lie'.
>>There are more pairs like this:
>>`set' and `sit', `fall' and `fell' (fell a tree)
>>are the only ones in English I can think of right now (I'd like to
>>see more).
>
>I think 'raise' and 'rise' fit into the same pairing. 'Lay' and 'lie'
>just seem to get confused more easily due to the crossings of their past
>tenses. I had never thought of other similar pairs before, though.
>Wendy
Appendix B of Mitchell & Robinson's _A Guide to Old English_ discusses
this phenomenon. Basically, the suffix _-jan_, in proto-Germanic,
when added to the preterite (simple past tense) form of a verb,
produces a verb with "a causative sense or a transitive function."
They give a list of pairs in Old English, which I have no reason
to believe is exhaustive. Aside from
licgan (to lie) --> laeg + jan = lecgan (to lay),
sittan (to sit) --> saet + jan = settan (to set), and
feallan (to fall) --> feoll + jan = fiellan (to fell),
mentioned above (note that the "verb --> preterite + jan = causative"
format which I have adopted here is somewhat misleading, since the
suffix-adding occurred in proto-Germanic or earlier, before the words
changed into the given, Old English, forms), the only pairs they list,
both of whose members have survived into Modern English, are the
following (added comments are mine):
risan (to rise) --> ras + jan = raeran (to rear)
That's right, the pair, etymologically speaking, would be rise/rear,
not rise/raise; however, according to the _American Heritage Dictionary
of Indo-European Roots_, "raise" is a borrowing of the Old Norse _reisa_,
which is just the Norse descendant of the same proto-Germanic _*raizjan_
from which _raeran_ derives, so you may want to count rise/raise anyway.
windan (to wind) --> wand + jan = wendan (to wend)
drincan (to drink) --> dranc + jan = drencan (to drench)
The "causative" nature of these is a trifle obscure, in my opinion.
(You can lead a horse to water, but you can't drench him . . .)
singan (to sing) --> sang + jan = sengan (to singe)
The _AHD of IER_ disagrees with this one, deriving _sengan_ from
a different verb +_jan_ in proto-Germanic, namely *_sangjan_, where
the *_sang_ part is from a verb meaning "to burn." While this seems
more plausible on the face of it, does anyone out there know one
way or the other?
Note that verbs were also formed from nouns and adjectives in this way.
We thus get pairs like brood/breed, doom/deem, food/feed, and tale/tell
on the one hand, and full/fill and hale/heal on the other.
>> Their German correspondences are `sitzen', `setzen'
>>and `fallen', `f"allen' (can't represent the Umlaut properly).
>>A Latin example is `cadere' and `caedere' meaning `to fall'
>>and `to kill' in the sense of `make fall'.
>>There are (Latin) technical terms for this situation of which I can only
>>remember one: `lay' is the verbum incohativum to `lie',
>>`incohativum' meaning something like `inducing,causing'.
>[...]
>>Philipp
Note, by the way, the altered newsgroups line.
Kevin Wald | Hwaet saegest thu, yrthlingc?
wa...@math.uchicago.edu | AElfric, _Colloquium Martianum_
Suzii Abe
> But we often omit the object when saying that "chickens lay" in order
> to indicate that they do this habitually or are doing it now. You may
> therefore well find a sentence like "Chickens lay more in summer than
> in winter" which is both correct and meaningful.
We don't omit the object; we elide it. In your example, it
is understood that you mean: "Chickens lay more [eggs] in
summer than in winter."
The object is still there. The verb is still transitive.
--Suzii.
pale...@lily.arts.com
phil stuart-jones
> And what's with this lighted business? Isn't the past tense of "light"
> supposed to be "lit?" (i.e., "He lit a match.")
Oh good! I was about to ask about that...
I've taken to using `highlit' as the past tense of `highlight' but I
suspect I shouldn't. Can anyone enlighten me on this?
phil
Respect respect
The moral majority are neither
Personal responsibility, not control by law
Vote for freedom of speech while you're still allowed to
Olivier Blechner
In article <2ojihj$i...@sun0.urz.uni-heidelberg.de>,
Philipp Rosenau <phi...@jessica.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de> wrote:
>A Latin example is `cadere' and `caedere' meaning `to fall'
>and `to kill' in the sense of `make fall'.
`caedere` means "to fell" (a tree), too.
>There are (Latin) technical terms for this situation of which I can only
>remember one: `lay' is the verbum incohativum to `lie',
>`incohativum' meaning something like `inducing,causing'.
Hmm, a remember the term "incohative" having another meaning, i.e. denoting
a growth. Example: adole-sc-ere, consene-sc-ere, erube-sc-ere, where -sc- is
the so-called "incohative suffix".
Nichts fuer ungut,
\ob\
--
"Confound those who have said our remarks before us"
dav...@alleleb.berkeley.edu
[much deleted]
: Appendix B of Mitchell & Robinson's _A Guide to Old English_ discusses
: this phenomenon. Basically, the suffix _-jan_, in proto-Germanic,
: when added to the preterite (simple past tense) form of a verb,
: produces a verb with "a causative sense or a transitive function."
: Kevin Wald | Hwaet saegest thu, yrthlingc?
: wa...@math.uchicago.edu | AElfric, _Colloquium Martianum_
Just to contribute to your collection of evidence --
Old Icelandic: vaka 'be awake' vekja 'cause to wake' vakna 'become awake'
Gothic: *wakan *us-wakjan *ga-waknan 'stay awake'
Old English: wacan weccan waecnan
~waeccan ~weccean ~waecnian
The infinitives don't occur in extant Gothic; the OE spellings are
variable, and so are the meanings in all three languages.
Sources: Lehmann, _Gothic Etymological Dictionary_ (Leiden, 1986);
Bosworth and Toller, _Anglo-Saxon Dictionary_ (Oxford, 1921); Cleasby,
Vigusson, and Craigie, _Icelandic-English Dictionary_ (Oxford, 1874);
de Vries, _Altnordisches Etymologisches Wo"rterbuch_ (Leiden, 1977).
As Lehmann says, "Etymology and relations between Gmc forms difficult,"
but still interesting, I think.
Hope this helps.
David Clement
___________________________________________________________________________
davidc | "One should, each day, try to hear a little song, read a good
@alleleb | poem, see a fine picture, and, if it is possible, speak a few
.berkeley | reasonable words."
.edu | --Mr. Goethe
___________________________________________________________________________
Arne J. Ludwig
: : lay, people lie." Thus whenever the subject is a person, use "lie";
: : else use "lay."
: No, no; you've taken a sensible mnemonic and twisted it. If chickens
: were capable of assuming a prone position, they'd be *lying* down. If
: people were capable of producing eggs, they would *lay* them.
And of course people get laid, and usually not by chickens.
Philipp Rosenau
>In article <2ojihj$i...@sun0.urz.uni-heidelberg.de> phi...@jessica.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de (Philipp Rosenau) writes:
>
>>[deleted]
>>The two verbs are different though related.
>>`lay' means `to make something lie'.
>>There are more pairs like this:
>>`set' and `sit', `fall' and `fell' (fell a tree)
>>are the only ones in English I can think of right now (I'd like to
>>see more).
>
>I think 'raise' and 'rise' fit into the same pairing. 'Lay' and 'lie'
>just seem to get confused more easily due to the crossings of their past
>tenses. I had never thought of other similar pairs before, though.
>Wendy
Yes, looks very good. Espescially, as `rise' belongs to the
strong conjugation (is conjugated strongly ..., what do you
say in English?) and `raise' to the weak. This seems to be typical
(at least in German).
I had a conference with my dictionary but did not
come up with further convincing examples. Three more candidates are:
drink - drown
The two words do not look very similar. But there is a corresponding
pair in German: `ertrinken - ertr"anken'. So, maybe ...
hang (hung, hung) - hang (hanged, hanged)
Though (at least `nowadays') hang (hung, ...) has got an `active'
meaning, too.
swell (swelled, swollen) - swell (swelled, swelled)
Same objections, and even more: I don't think that these are
recognized as two different words `any longer'.
It would need an etymologist to check this all.
>> ...
>>There are (Latin) technical terms for this situation of which I can only
>>remember one: `lay' is the verbum incohativum to `lie',
>>`incohativum' meaning something like `inducing,causing'.
>> ...
I was wrong, here. It must be `causativum'.
`in(c)hoho' means `start, begin, ...'
Philipp
Philipp Rosenau
Olivier Blechner <obl...@judgment.imp.com> answered:
> ...
>>There are (Latin) technical terms for this situation of which I can only
>>remember one: `lay' is the verbum incohativum to `lie',
>>`incohativum' meaning something like `inducing,causing'.
>
>Hmm, a remember the term "incohative" having another meaning, i.e. denoting
>a growth. Example: adole-sc-ere, consene-sc-ere, erube-sc-ere, where -sc- is
>the so-called "incohative suffix".
miserere, peccavi! What I meant is `causativum' and could not think
of it although I talked of `causing'. `in(c)hoho' is `start, begin ...'
>Nichts fuer ungut,
Are you German? Or can you read thoughts?
I had intended to finish my last letter with this phrase but then I
abstained ...
>\ob\
Philipp
Philipp Rosenau
Kevin Wald <wa...@dent.uchicago.edu> wrote on causative verb formation.
Wheeew, this was good. But I still have some comments ...
> ...
>They give a list of pairs in Old English, which I have no reason
>to believe is exhaustive. Aside from
>
> licgan (to lie) --> laeg + jan = lecgan (to lay),
> sittan (to sit) --> saet + jan = settan (to set), and
> feallan (to fall) --> feoll + jan = fiellan (to fell),
>
>following (added comments are mine):
>
> risan (to rise) --> ras + jan = raeran (to rear)
> windan (to wind) --> wand + jan = wendan (to wend)
> drincan (to drink) --> dranc + jan = drencan (to drench)
>
>The "causative" nature of these is a trifle obscure, in my opinion.
>(You can lead a horse to water, but you can't drench him . . .)
>
> singan (to sing) --> sang + jan = sengan (to singe)
>
>The _AHD of IER_ disagrees with this one, deriving _sengan_ from
>a different verb +_jan_ in proto-Germanic, namely *_sangjan_, where
>the *_sang_ part is from a verb meaning "to burn." While this seems
>more plausible on the face of it, does anyone out there know one
>way or the other?
I am quite certain that this is not exhaustive as I've tried to write
down a list of the German pairs and got a collection of twenty to
thirty over the years. Some of them are very doubtful, though.
As I expect that this word formation pattern has not been active
for quite some centuries the roots of the German pairs should be found
in Old English ..
`wend' I only know in the construction `to wend one's way' so that I am
not quite sure that the pair `wind-wend' is a good one in modern
English. But, maybe, my vocabulary is just not good enough ...
`winden-wenden', on the other hand, is a good one in (modern)
German, `wenden' meaning `to turn (over)' (`(sich) winden' = `to wind,
to go/be in spirals').
`drenching your horse', maybe, did not please you because you thought of
`drench = soak'. But there seems to be another meaning of `drench' used
in connection with animals, i.e. feed them medicine. In German, again,
the corresponding `trinken - tr"anken' is a good example, `tr"anken'
meaning `give something to drink' (only used relating to animals, too).
About `sing', `singe' I don't know. `singen - sengen' is in my German
list, but among the very doubtful entries.
>Note that verbs were also formed from nouns and adjectives in this way.
>We thus get pairs like brood/breed, doom/deem, food/feed, and tale/tell
>on the one hand, and full/fill and hale/heal on the other.
`full/fill' and `hale/heal' I do understand. But what about ``causing''
in the other examples ?
>Note, by the way, the altered newsgroups line.
If I had known that one may change newsgroups lines I would have
done so before ...
Philipp
Stuart Thomas
Greetings,
As a British independent broadcaster, the correct use of my own language is hardly
clinically correct. It is however widely understood and perhaps I can make some valid
postings.
> In California, we say "loaned" and use "loan" as a verb.
Lent is, I believe the correct word to use in the "I lent Bob my elk!" context.
Loaned is frequently used in the UK, "I loaned Bob my elk", however I personally
beleive that this implies a past event; I have the damned elk back now.
This may not be of any use to you, feel free to expand on this or start a new topic.
Adieu,
Tom
" How am I going to operate my digital watch now? " - Arthur Dent
(c) D.Adams
Kevin Wald
Well, in addition to the list not being exhaustive, as I mentioned in
my original posting, the above are only the pairs they listed
both of whose members have survived into Modern English; they
had just as many where one or both have not, to my knowledge,
survived. A lot of good verbs died in the Norman conquest, and
many more have simply withered away through the centuries. (And, of
course, not every proto-Germanic causative will even have made it
into Old English in the first place . . .)
>`wend' I only know in the construction `to wend one's way' so that I am
>not quite sure that the pair `wind-wend' is a good one in modern
>English.
Well, as I said, the "causativity" here is a little obscure. According
to the Oxford English Dictionary, originally _wendan_ was the transitive
verb "to turn," (that is, pretty much what you'd expect the causative
of _windan_ to mean), and then, through its reflexive uses ("to turn
oneself") it acquired the meaning "to go." It still has the latter meaning,
not only in the "to wend one's way" construction, but also in its much
more common incarnation, as the preterite "went."
>`drenching your horse', maybe, did not please you because you thought of
>`drench = soak'. But there seems to be another meaning of `drench' used
>in connection with animals, i.e. feed them medicine.
Ashamed as I am to admit it, until you posted this I had never heard
of this meaning. (I may attribute this to my urban upbringing, I
suppose . . .) All now becomes clear.
>About `sing', `singe' I don't know. `singen - sengen' is in my German
>list, but among the very doubtful entries.
For what it's worth, the OED mentions the "singan" - "sengan" idea
as a possibility only, and doesn't refer to the root-meaning-"burn"
idea at all.
By the way, I'm not sure to what extent you have already consulted
the OED on this topic, but it's a goldmine for this sort of thing.
I recall that in an earlier posting on this thread, you were inquiring
about the possibility of "hang/hung" vs. "hang/hanged" being a pair.
The OED gives an entire history of the English verb "hang," which
ends up involving (1) an Old English transitive strong verb, _hon_,
(2) an Old English intransitive weak verb, _hangian_ (note that the
transitivity is precisely the reverse of what on would expect if
the weak verb were the causative on the strong), and (3) an Old
Norse causative of just the type we have been talking about,
(_hengja_, if I remember correctly). The whole story of how these
three separate words got put together into one verb with two ways
of making the preterite, is spelled out in all its glorious
complication.
>>Note that verbs were also formed from nouns and adjectives in this way.
>>We thus get pairs like brood/breed, doom/deem, food/feed, and tale/tell
>>on the one hand, and full/fill and hale/heal on the other.
>
>`full/fill' and `hale/heal' I do understand. But what about ``causing''
>in the other examples ?
Sorry if I was unclear -- by "in this way," I merely meant that these
were formed by adding the same weak-verb-forming _-jan_ suffix as in
the earlier, verb-derived, examples, _e.g._
foda (food) + jan = fedan (to feed).
>Philipp
Kevin Wald | Hwaet saegest thu, yrthlingc?
wa...@math.uchicago.edu | -- AElfric, _Colloquium Martianum_
Colin Kendall
> NNTP-Posting-Host: tdc.dircon.co.uk
> Greetings,
> As a British independent broadcaster, the correct use of my own language is hardly
> clinically correct.
As a British independent broadcaster, the correct use of your own language is highly unusual.
Most uses of language, correct or not, are unable to broadcast.
--
Warmest regards,
Colin Kendall.
Phone (813) 371-0811 extension 6842
Stuart Thomas
Greetings,
As a British independent broadcaster, the correct use of my own language is hardly
clinically correct. It is however widely understood and perhaps I can make some valid
postings.
> In California, we say "loaned" and use "loan" as a verb.
P. K. W. Tan (Dr)
: Yes, looks very good. Espescially, as `rise' belongs to the
: strong conjugation (is conjugated strongly ..., what do you
: say in English?) and `raise' to the weak. This seems to be typical
: (at least in German).
Yes, I think they are called `strong verbs' in English.
: The two words do not look very similar. But there is a corresponding
: pair in German: `ertrinken - ertr"anken'. So, maybe ...
: hang (hung, hung) - hang (hanged, hanged)
I'm not quite sure that there is a causative v. non-causative
`hang' now based on the past tense and past participle forms.
`Hanged' seems to be used exclusively for the rope and gallows
treatment, although I've been hearing `hung' used for that
too recently. It would seem therefore that the hang-hanged-hanged
form is on the way out.
Is there the same causative v. non-causative distinction
for `hang' in German/Dutch/Flemish/other Germanic languages too?
Peter Tan
Singapore
Stuart Savory
>As a British independent broadcaster, the correct use of my
>own language is hardly clinically correct.
SIC! Who is the broadcaster? "the correct use" ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Stuart Savory savor...@sni.de / savor...@sni-usa.com
J. Katherine Rossner
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Peter Moylan wrote:
: > The use of `loan' as a verb is more common by Americans than
: > by English - who would use the word `lend'.
: It appears, however, that Americans use both words - loan and lend
: - as verbs. Is there a subtle difference of meaning, or are they
: synonyms?
: I've occasionally seen "loan" as a verb in Australia, but I
: can't think of any examples where it means something different
: from "lend".
In a "Business English" class that I attended (part of a secretarial
training class), the teacher said that we "loan" money and "lend"
anything else.
Katherine Rossner
--
j...@netcom.com
Ye knowe ek, that in forme of speche is chaunge
Withinne a thousand yeer, and wordes tho
That hadden pris, now wonder nyce and straunge
Us thinketh hem, and yit they spake hem so.
Chaucer, "Troilus and Criseyde"
Peter Cockerell
: >As a British independent broadcaster, the correct use of my
: >own language is hardly clinically correct.
: SIC! Who is the broadcaster? "the correct use" ?
Ha! As though anyone in the British media is going to have a strong
enough grasp of grammar to even *begin* to understand what's wrong with
his sentence. As a broadcaster, his English is crap :-)
: --------------------------------------------------------------------------
: Dr. Stuart Savory savor...@sni.de / savor...@sni-usa.com
:
Mr Pete Cockerell
(PS A friend of mine maintains that you don't put the period at the end
of an abbreviation whose last letter is the same as the abbreviated
word, eg Dr and Mr, but he could be wrong.)
david fowler
jfa...@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
> I am pretty sure that the damn canadians started that hosed thing-Which
> refers to anal sex
I'm pretty sure you're right about
the damn Canadians part of this, and particularly Doug & Bob McKenzie's
use of "hosers" eh? But I always thought they must be referring to the
peculularly Canadian winter pastime of using your garden hose to flood
your back yard in order to make a skating rink. I am not making this up!
Jeff
Michelle D Nelson
>
Distribution: world
david fowler (dfo...@unlinfo.unl.edu) wrote:
: Was "hosed" ever resolved? [As anal sex, the true meaning?]
I am pretty sure that the damn canadians started that hosed thing-Which
refers to anal sex
Michelle
P. K. W. Tan (Dr)
Peter Cockerell (pe...@eo.com) wrote:
: (PS A friend of mine maintains that you don't put the period at the end
: of an abbreviation whose last letter is the same as the abbreviated
: word, eg Dr and Mr, but he could be wrong.)
I think the lack of a full stop (Am.E. period) after abbreviations
like `Dr' and `Mrs' is standard in British usage, but this seems
less common in American publications that I have come across.
By the same logic, however, I would insert the stops for `e.g.'
as this is the abbreviation for two Latin words, as I would also
for `viz.', `i.e.', `Mas.' (for Master), `Ho.' (for House).
Peter Tan
jfa...@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
>>peculularly Canadian winter pastime of using your garden hose to flood
>>your back yard in order to make a skating rink.
>
Sorry, I thought this seemed pretty obvious, eh? You could move in to that
nice flat for rent beside Maple Leaf Gardens!! Oh and by the way you lost
points by not noticing that in my frenzy to post I misspelled "peculiarly"
which looks totally wrong to me but this time I looked in Webster's. Hope
this isn't another Americanism
Jeff
Robert Allison
>
>I'm pretty sure you're right about
>the damn Canadians part of this, and particularly Doug & Bob McKenzie's
>use of "hosers" eh? But I always thought they must be referring to the
>peculularly Canadian winter pastime of using your garden hose to flood
>your back yard in order to make a skating rink. I am not making this up!
I don't understand. How else can you turn your back yard into a skating rink?
--
Robert Allison rob...@dev.simware.com
Simware Canada
Why yes, I _do_ speak for Simware. But not this time.
Ian Peter Mitchell
>
>david fowler (dfo...@unlinfo.unl.edu) wrote:
>: Was "hosed" ever resolved? [As anal sex, the true meaning?]
>I am pretty sure that the damn canadians started that hosed thing-Which
>refers to anal sex
Damn? Or damned? Well that sure would explain what has happened
to the country in the last couple of years...
"Hose" was in use long before people got into (heh heh) anal
sex... "Hoser", a term of contempt for a male person has been
around for over 20 years. "Hose job", meaning deception or
swindle has been around longer. And not a trace of botties
anywhere, eh?
Ian
--
Ian P. Mitchell, Research Analyst
Faculty of Graduate Studies
University of Calgary, Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2N 1N4
Adrian Riskin
(Ian Peter Mitchell) wrote:
[accretia deleted]
> "Hose" was in use long before people got into (heh heh) anal
> sex... "Hoser", a term of contempt for a male person has been
> around for over 20 years. "Hose job", meaning deception or
> swindle has been around longer. And not a trace of botties
> anywhere, eh?
>
> Ian
> --
[sig snipped]
What do you mean "long before people got into anal sex"? People have been
into anal sex for a lot longer than the English language has existed...
Regards, Adrian
--
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Adrian Riskin
Department of Mathematics
Northern Arizona University
Flagstaff, Arizona 86011
(602)523-6889
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
jfa...@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
People have been
> into anal sex for a lot longer than the English language has existed...
I think it's time to move this discussion to alt.usage.greek, isn't it?
>
Adrian Pepper
in article <1994Apr27...@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu>:
I always thought "hoser" was a reference to the fact that the
supposedly ubiquitous Canadian toque[*] is sometimes known as a
"stocking cap".
Adrian.
[*] tuque
This OED2 entry is just too amusing not to relay:
tuque (tju:k), (tyk). Canadian. [a. Canadian Fr., f. Fr. toque, TOQUE.]
A knitted stocking-cap tapered and closed at both ends, one end being
tucked into the other to form the cap; formerly the characteristic
winter head-dress of the Canadian `habitant'; now chiefly worn as part
of a toboggan or snow-shoe club costume.
:g/"([,.])/s//\1"/g
M.B.A. Read
<snip>
>
>I always thought "hoser" was a reference to the fact that the
>supposedly ubiquitous Canadian toque[*] is sometimes known as a
>"stocking cap".
>
>Adrian.
>
<snip OED 2 defn>
Ahhh, a mystery becomes solved. So _that_'s what Canadians mean by a toque.
Sometime in the past, when I first encountered the word (in Beckett's
_Endgame_, no less) I decided, with the aid of my Shorter OED, that it
meant that strange white hat that chefs wear. My mental image of
Canada is now changed accordingly.
Yours, etc
Marc
--
-----------------> mba...@cus.cam.ac.uk / ma...@io.com <------------------
Marc Read
Dept of HPS "What I tell you three times is true."
Cambridge, UK (Hunting of the Snark)