... but for one month
Marius Hancu
Is this really a good application of "but for?"
1-They didn't pay me except for one month.
2-They didn't pay me but for one month.
3-Except for one month, they didn't pay me.
4-But for one month, they didn't pay me.
--
Thanks.
Marius Hancu
Cheryl
1,2 and 3 are all right, although the 'but for' structure sounds a bit
more formal than 'except for'. I tend to associate 'but for' with
phrases like 'But for the grace of God, I'd have been on that plane
which crashed' and even that doesn't seem to be so common.
I like 3 the best
4 means something different to me - I started working at Acme
Corporation on October 1, but for one month they didn't pay me because
they had computer problems with their payroll. Or they were like a place
I worked as a summer student, which was so slow in getting you on their
payroll that it seemed like your summer job was nearly over before you
got any money.
--
Cheryl
Marius Hancu
> Is this really a good application of "but for?"
>
> 1-They didn't pay me except for one month.
> 2-They didn't pay me but for one month.
>
> 3-Except for one month, they didn't pay me.
> 4-But for one month, they didn't pay me.
One of the reasons I'm asking, is that the definition 5 at
http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/but_1
doesn't quite fit here.
---
5
but for
a) used when you are saying that something would have happened if
something or someone else had not prevented it:
But for these interruptions, the meeting would have finished earlier.
The score could have been higher but for some excellent goalkeeping by
Simon.
I might never have got to university but for you.
b) except for something or someone:
All was silent but for the sound of the wind in the trees.
----
It might be that 5b fits.
Marius Hancu
Fully agree.
Thanks.
Marius Hancu
Marius Hancu
+aue200...@nospam.firedrake.org> wrote:
> Cheryl wrote:
> >1,2 and 3 are all right, although the 'but for' structure sounds a bit
> >more formal than 'except for'. I tend to associate 'but for' with
> >phrases like 'But for the grace of God, I'd have been on that plane
> >which crashed' and even that doesn't seem to be so common.
>
> >I like 3 the best
>
> It all seems a bit overcomplex. "They only paid me for one month."
Indeed. Thanks to both of you.
Marius Hancu
John Dean
1,3 and 4 are OK. 2 is poor but acceptable.
See OED:
29. but for = except for, were it not for: see sense 1.
c1205 Lay. 31446 Hit likede wel �an kinge, buten for ane �inge. 1592
Shakes. Ven. & Ad. 504 These mine eyes+But for thy piteous lips no more had
seen. 1667 Pepys Diary (1879) IV. 351 Several of the Council+would come but
for their attending the King. 1885 Law Rep. XXIX. Ch. Div. 291 But for the
concurrent jurisdiction, the decision+would have been the other way.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Don Phillipson
news:c76a6590-d314-4248...@m13g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...
> Is this really a good application of "but for?"
>
> 1-They didn't pay me except for one month.
> 2-They didn't pay me but for one month.
>
> 3-Except for one month, they didn't pay me.
> 4-But for one month, they didn't pay me.
#3 is by far the best. The idiom allows for
heavier emphasis as in:
Except for the first month, they did not pay me a penny.
"But for" offers extra rhetorical value only when its brevity
reinforces some larger rhetorical effect provided by
the context, viz. what precedes or follows #4. For
everyday purposes Longmans defn. 5(b) fits as at
http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/but_1
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Prai Jei
continuum:
They only ever paid me one month.
--
ξ:) Proud to be curly
Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
Mark Brader
> > 1-They didn't pay me except for one month.
> > 2-They didn't pay me but for one month.
> >
> > 3-Except for one month, they didn't pay me.
> > 4-But for one month, they didn't pay me.
Cheryl Perkins:
> 1,2 and 3 are all right, although the 'but for' structure sounds a bit
> more formal than 'except for'.
1 and 3 are fine. To me 2 sounds either like an old-fashioned folksy
American dialect, the sort of thing I might encounter in Mark Twain,
or else an old-fashioned formal usage.
> I tend to associate 'but for' with
> phrases like 'But for the grace of God, I'd have been on that plane
> which crashed' and even that doesn't seem to be so common.
Agreed. In this example it means "if not for", not "except for".
> 4 means something different to me - I started working at Acme
> Corporation on October 1, but for one month they didn't pay me because
> they had computer problems with their payroll. ...
In other words, it means the same as "but they didn't pay me for one
month (although they did for the other months)".
I think *that* reading is best punctuated with commas before and after
"for one month", or else with no commas. The single comma suggests
that it is meant to be read the same as 3. However, this is not a
hard-and-fast rule; when a phrase set off with paired commas comes
immediately after a conjunction, sometimes the first comma is omitted.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Where do you want Microsoft to go today?"
m...@vex.net -- Rick Ross
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Marius Hancu
> > > 1-They didn't pay me except for one month.
> > > 2-They didn't pay me but for one month.
>
> > > 3-Except for one month, they didn't pay me.
> > > 4-But for one month, they didn't pay me.
>
> Cheryl Perkins:
>
> > 1,2 and 3 are all right, although the 'but for' structure sounds a bit
> > more formal than 'except for'.
>
> 1 and 3 are fine. To me 2 sounds either like an old-fashioned folksy
> American dialect, the sort of thing I might encounter in Mark Twain,
> or else an old-fashioned formal usage.
Indeed.
Thank you all.
Marius Hancu
John Holmes
> Cheryl wrote:
>
>> 1,2 and 3 are all right, although the 'but for' structure sounds a
>> bit more formal than 'except for'. I tend to associate 'but for' with
>> phrases like 'But for the grace of God, I'd have been on that plane
>> which crashed' and even that doesn't seem to be so common.
>>
>> I like 3 the best
>
Or even, "They paid me for but one month".
--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au
aquachimp
> Roger Burton West wrote:
> > Cheryl wrote:
>
> >> 1,2 and 3 are all right, although the 'but for' structure sounds a
> >> bit more formal than 'except for'. I tend to associate 'but for' with
> >> phrases like 'But for the grace of God, I'd have been on that plane
> >> which crashed' and even that doesn't seem to be so common.
>
> >> I like 3 the best
>
> > It all seems a bit overcomplex. "They only paid me for one month."
>
> Or even, "They paid me for but one month".
They paid me, but for only one month out of the (2/3/5/) months.
Richard Chambers
I am afraid I must disagree with all of this reply. Marius asked whether
this is a *really* good application of "but for". My response is that none
of these versions is a *really* good application of "but for". They are all
*really bad* applications.
I am not a brain-dead automatic opponent of double negatives, but in this
case I argue against them strenuously. The result of the double negative in
all four cases is overcomplexity (as John Dean has already pointed out) and
a sentence that is difficult to understand.
Negative number 1: They didn't pay me
Negative number 2: except for one month
At this stage, I am involved in an unnecessary logical calculation. What
does the writer really mean? The answer, after a few mental Venn diagrams
and 5 to 10 seconds of Aristotelian logic, is:-
"They paid me for only one month."
Good writing, in any language, does not put the reader to the trouble of
this sort of unnecessary logical calculation. Why not say things in their
simplest form, as above?
What, in my opinion, would be a *really good* application of "but for"? How
about:-
"They paid me all my wages, but for one month." ...(1)
This does not involve a double negative. I worked for four months, and was
paid for three. However, "but for" has no significant advantages over
"except for" in this type of sentence.
As already mentioned by another contributor, "but for" has a completely
different meaning from "for but". For example:-
"I worked for 4 months, they paid me for but one" ...(2)
This means, in contrast to (1), that I worked for four months, and was paid
for only one of these months. In this context, "for but" has no significant
advantages over "for only".
Richard Chambers Leeds UK.
aquachimp
On a general point, "but for" can be regarded as an abbreviation of
"They paid me but (it was only ) for two out of the 3 month.
Whereas "for but" can be "They paid me, for (all) but one month" (I
use a comma)
One aspect of use can be a bit like pricing something at £5.99 rather
than simply £6.
Ergo;
"I wasn't paid at all, but for the price of a box of screws".
"No! For but the price of the box of screws, you haven't paid that
bill at all."
John Holmes
> On a general point, "but for" can be regarded as an abbreviation of
> "They paid me but (it was only ) for two out of the 3 month.
> Whereas "for but" can be "They paid me, for (all) but one month" (I
> use a comma)
No, that's wrong; the second construction means exactly the opposite of
that. Here 'but' means 'only', so 'They paid me for only one month'.
Skitt
> aquachimp wrote:
>> On a general point, "but for" can be regarded as an abbreviation of
>> "They paid me but (it was only ) for two out of the 3 month.
>> Whereas "for but" can be "They paid me, for (all) but one month" (I
>> use a comma)
>
> No, that's wrong; the second construction means exactly the opposite
> of that. Here 'but' means 'only', so 'They paid me for only one
> month'.
Not to argue with what you have there, here's what M-W Online says about
what it means in AmE and whatever E was used in the 12th century:
Main Entry: but for
Function: preposition
Date: 12th century
: except for
--
Skitt (AmE)
aquachimp
Which says my first example is also incorrect.
John Holmes
And that is the 'but' that this one isn't.
In "They paid me for but one month', 'but' is an adverb according to the
dictionaries I looked in.
Skitt
Right. The only problem might be that "for but" is not nearly as common an
expression as "but for", and there can easily be some confusion (see
aquachimp's message).
--
Skitt (AmE)