And this is how it happens ...
Skitt
teach the children that "between you and I" is the proper expression.
A student (a relative) didn't think that was quite right and called my
D-I-L. My D-I-L wasn't sure about it, so we discussed it a few minutes ago.
I told her that trying to preserve what used to be the "right way" might be
a lost cause in this case.
--
Skitt (AmE)
Glenn Knickerbocker
> I told her that trying to preserve what used to be the "right way" might be
> a lost cause in this case.
I'll count it as lost as soon as I start hearing "between we."
�R
R H Draney
Me are sad to hearing these....r
--
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?
Skitt
You and I's (yes, I've seen that) opinion does not matter.
--
Skitt (AmE)
sobbing softly ...
Pat Durkin
news:4AC40EAF...@bestweb.net...
Oh, come now. You have probably heard it a dozen times. "These are
perilous times for "we the people".
Evan Kirshenbaum
> That's too bad. This is one of those rules in English that is clear
> and inviolable: a preposition is followed by the objective case.
1) If it were inviolable, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Not
only "between you and I", but also things like "to they who ...",
which I see back to the eighteenth century.
2) I did an analysis of this back when I was an undergrad, and the
model I came up with said that you are correct: the preposition is
followed by the objective (accusative) case. And that for these
speakers, there's no contradiction: they simply don't require that the
case of the conjunction be the same as that of the conjoined phrases.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Any programming problem can be
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |solved by adding another layer of
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |indirection. Any performance
|problem can be solved by removing
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |one.
(650)857-7572
James Hogg
>ar...@iname.com (Murray Arnow) writes:
>
>> Skitt wrote:
>>>Just heard from my D-I-L that in the sixth grade, in the
>>>Philippines, they teach the children that "between you and I" is the
>>>proper expression.
>>>
>>>A student (a relative) didn't think that was quite right and called
>>>my D-I-L. My D-I-L wasn't sure about it, so we discussed it a few
>>>minutes ago. I told her that trying to preserve what used to be the
>>>"right way" might be a lost cause in this case.
>>>
>>
>> That's too bad. This is one of those rules in English that is clear
>> and inviolable: a preposition is followed by the objective case.
>
>1) If it were inviolable, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Not
>only "between you and I", but also things like "to they who ...",
>which I see back to the eighteenth century.
>
>2) I did an analysis of this back when I was an undergrad, and the
>model I came up with said that you are correct: the preposition is
>followed by the objective (accusative) case. And that for these
>speakers, there's no contradiction: they simply don't require that the
>case of the conjunction be the same as that of the conjoined phrases.
I suspect that this mistake would have been less likely to arise
if we hadn't had the rule of politeness which says that you put
yourself last. I don't think it would have occurred to anyone to
say "between I and you".
There's also an element of hypercorrection at work here. Children
whose natural dialect allowed them to say things like "Me and you
can do this together" were taught that it must be "you and I",
which became over-generalised.
--
James
Guy Barry
"Evan Kirshenbaum" <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote in message
news:ab0bzl...@hpl.hp.com...
> 1) If it were inviolable, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Not
> only "between you and I", but also things like "to they who ...",
> which I see back to the eighteenth century.
>
> 2) I did an analysis of this back when I was an undergrad, and the
> model I came up with said that you are correct: the preposition is
> followed by the objective (accusative) case. And that for these
> speakers, there's no contradiction: they simply don't require that the
> case of the conjunction be the same as that of the conjoined phrases.
I've seen it argued that "between you and I" is defensible on the grounds
that "from you and me" can be rewritten as "from you and from me", but
"between you and me" can't be rewritten in the same fashion. In other
words, "you and I" is seen as a compound structure in which only the case of
the first element changes.
Admittedly this analysis doesn't explain examples like the following:
"Trevor Dimen says there was shoving between he and his father"
(http://www.leaderpost.com/news/news/1714172/story.html).
I would personally never use anything other than the objective case in such
constructions.
--
Guy Barry
Evan Kirshenbaum
[re: "between you and I"]
> There's also an element of hypercorrection at work here. Children
> whose natural dialect allowed them to say things like "Me and you
> can do this together" were taught that it must be "you and I",
> which became over-generalised.
Certainly it started out as a hypercorrection, but I know quite a
number of adults who both say it and have children, so kids are
growing up in environments in which it's modeled. And it wouldn't
surprise me if at least some of those adults grew up in houses in
which it was the common form. At some point, the hypercorrection
becomes historical.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |"You can't prove it *isn't* so!" is
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |as good as Q.E.D. in folk logic--as
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |though it were necessary to submit
|a piece of the moon to chemical
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |analysis before you could be sure
(650)857-7572 |that it was not made of green
|cheese.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Bergen Evans
Skitt
> James Hogg writes:
>
> [re: "between you and I"]
>
>> There's also an element of hypercorrection at work here. Children
>> whose natural dialect allowed them to say things like "Me and you
>> can do this together" were taught that it must be "you and I",
>> which became over-generalised.
>
> Certainly it started out as a hypercorrection, but I know quite a
> number of adults who both say it and have children, so kids are
> growing up in environments in which it's modeled. And it wouldn't
> surprise me if at least some of those adults grew up in houses in
> which it was the common form. At some point, the hypercorrection
> becomes historical.
I wonder what is commonly said by the "between you and I" people when a
third person is involved. Is it "between he and I"? Probably.
--
Skitt (AmE)
Cece
>
> - Show quoted text -
Some say "between him and I"; some say "between he and I."
Cece
> James Hogg <Jas.H...@gOUTmail.com> writes:
>
> [re: "between you and I"]
>
> > There's also an element of hypercorrection at work here. Children
> > whose natural dialect allowed them to say things like "Me and you
> > can do this together" were taught that it must be "you and I",
> > which became over-generalised.
>
> Certainly it started out as a hypercorrection, but I know quite a
> number of adults who both say it and have children, so kids are
> growing up in environments in which it's modeled. And it wouldn't
> surprise me if at least some of those adults grew up in houses in
> which it was the common form. At some point, the hypercorrection
> becomes historical.
>
> --
> Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
> HP Laboratories |"You can't prove it *isn't* so!" is
> 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |as good as Q.E.D. in folk logic--as
> Palo Alto, CA 94304 |though it were necessary to submit
> |a piece of the moon to chemical
> (650)857-7572 |that it was not made of green
> |cheese.
> http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Bergen Evans
About 30 years ago I noticed that a friend had started "I" in compound
objects of prepositions. She brought up grammar corrections she had
to make in her job as secretary and mentioned wrong pronouns, that use
specifically. I commented that she did it herself. She exclaimed,
"No, I don't!" I nodded, "Yes, you started it not long ago." She
challenged me to point it out the next time she did so -- so I did.
And the next time, and the third time, at which point she just growled
and went on doing it.
R H Draney
>
>On Oct 1, 1:44=A0am, James Hogg <Jas.H...@gOUTmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> There's also an element of hypercorrection at work here. Children
>> whose natural dialect allowed them to say things like "Me and you
>> can do this together" were taught that it must be "you and I",
>> which became over-generalised.
>
That sounds like it should refer to a hermaphrodite....r
Joe Fineman
> I've seen it argued that "between you and I" is defensible on the
> grounds that "from you and me" can be rewritten as "from you and
> from me", but "between you and me" can't be rewritten in the same
> fashion. In other words, "you and I" is seen as a compound
> structure in which only the case of the first element changes.
IIRC, "between you & I" actually occurs in Shakespeare, far too early
to be due to hypercorrection. The other grotesqueries in this thread,
however, must surely be due to that cause.
Incidentally, tho "between you and between me/I" sounds silly in
English, one does sometimes see "between" repeated if the objects are
long, tho that is deprecated. And in Hebrew, weirdly, the repetition
is standard.
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net
||: If you take yourself seriously enough, nobody else will have :||
||: to. :||
James Hogg
>"Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
>
>> I've seen it argued that "between you and I" is defensible on the
>> grounds that "from you and me" can be rewritten as "from you and
>> from me", but "between you and me" can't be rewritten in the same
>> fashion. In other words, "you and I" is seen as a compound
>> structure in which only the case of the first element changes.
>
>IIRC, "between you & I" actually occurs in Shakespeare, far too early
>to be due to hypercorrection. The other grotesqueries in this thread,
>however, must surely be due to that cause.
You RC. It's in The Merchant of Venice (who lent bread to
non-Jews) III, 2, "All debts are cleared between you and I."
>Incidentally, tho "between you and between me/I" sounds silly in
>English, one does sometimes see "between" repeated if the objects are
>long, tho that is deprecated. And in Hebrew, weirdly, the repetition
>is standard.
Weird indeed.
--
James
Default User
> You've never heard "between he and she"?
How about "she and him".
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/She_and_Him>
Brian
--
Day 241 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project
Robert Bannister
> ar...@iname.com (Murray Arnow) writes:
>
>> Skitt wrote:
>>> Just heard from my D-I-L that in the sixth grade, in the
>>> Philippines, they teach the children that "between you and I" is the
>>> proper expression.
>>>
>>> A student (a relative) didn't think that was quite right and called
>>> my D-I-L. My D-I-L wasn't sure about it, so we discussed it a few
>>> minutes ago. I told her that trying to preserve what used to be the
>>> "right way" might be a lost cause in this case.
>>>
>> That's too bad. This is one of those rules in English that is clear
>> and inviolable: a preposition is followed by the objective case.
>
> 1) If it were inviolable, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Not
> only "between you and I", but also things like "to they who ...",
> which I see back to the eighteenth century.
>
> 2) I did an analysis of this back when I was an undergrad, and the
> model I came up with said that you are correct: the preposition is
> followed by the objective (accusative) case. And that for these
> speakers, there's no contradiction: they simply don't require that the
> case of the conjunction be the same as that of the conjoined phrases.
>
Although it can't be done with "between", I am increasingly favouring a
repeated preposition like "for me and for my family too". Well, at
least, I'm trying to do this in writing; I don't think I've managed to
work it into my speech yet.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
On one of the previous occasions when we were having this discussion, I
suggested that this construction was only used in the "X and I" form,
but over the last year I have heard and read numerous examples involving
"he, she, we and they", much to my disgust. It's a lost cause.
--
Rob Bannister
R H Draney
>
>Skitt wrote:
>>
>> I wonder what is commonly said by the "between you and I" people when a
>> third person is involved. Is it "between he and I"? Probably.
>
>On one of the previous occasions when we were having this discussion, I
>suggested that this construction was only used in the "X and I" form,
>but over the last year I have heard and read numerous examples involving
>"he, she, we and they", much to my disgust. It's a lost cause.
Do Jamaicans say "tell me and me"?...r
Eric Walker
[...]
> It's a lost cause.
No cause is lost till all involved think so.
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker, Owlcroft House
http://owlcroft.com/english/
Maria Conlon
> Robert Bannister wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> It's a lost cause.
>
> No cause is lost till all involved think so.
Really? I'm tempted to say "baloney," but I suppose you could be right
in some (though not all) instances.
--
Maria Conlon
Glenn Knickerbocker
>You and I's (yes, I've seen that) opinion does not matter.
I'd say that's perfectly defensible, actually, as the normal possessive
form of a phrase, and less problematic than the common alternative "yours
and my."
�R / Darla: Leftovers aren't the mark of a man. \ www.bestweb.net/~notr
Andrew Reid: Actually, they are, because that's how men's shirts button.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Do Jamaicans say "tell me and me"?...r
According to OED quotes, it's "I an' I" even as an object.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Yesterday I washed a single sock.
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |When I opened the door, the machine
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |was empty.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572