She hasn't done it since a week ago. (?)
Mark Brader
> I never use this "since [time period] ago" structure myself and do
> not teach my students to use it.
>
> What is your attitude to this usage?
Correct and fairly common usage. This is also true of all the other
examples in Irina's posting.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Beware the Calends of April also."
m...@vex.net -- Peter Neumann
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Alex Chernavsky
>I never use this "since [time period] ago" structure
>myself and do not teach my students to use it.
>
>What is your attitude to this usage?
I agree with your opinion. Your original example sentence ("She hasn't done
it since a week ago") sounds odd. I don't have any trouble understanding
what the sentence *means*, but I would never say it, and I don't think it's
used much in the US.
--
Alex Chernavsky
al...@astrocyte-design.com
Robert Lieblich
>
> Irina Tkachova wrote, in part:
>
> >I never use this "since [time period] ago" structure
> >myself and do not teach my students to use it.
> >
> >What is your attitude to this usage?
>
> I agree with your opinion. Your original example sentence ("She hasn't done
> it since a week ago") sounds odd. I don't have any trouble understanding
> what the sentence *means*, but I would never say it, and I don't think it's
> used much in the US.
This USan has heard it and (I'm pretty sure) used it. The key is that I
think of "a week ago" as defining a point in time.[1] So "a week ago"
is, to me, equivalent to "Thursday" or "March 1" or "last Christmas."
Once you allow that, it's plainly no problem to say something hasn't
happend since "a week ago," just as one can say something hasn't
happened "since last Christmas."
I'm not urging this on anyone else, and I'm probably more likely myself
to say "for a week," as in "She hasn't done it for a week." But I
wouldn't cavil at "She hasn't done it since a week ago."
FWIW. YMMC.
[1] Hey, everyone, look at me. I just used "point in time" in a
context where it actually makes sense.
Franklin Cacciutto
true to current usage.
Irina Tkachova wrote:
> One of the exercises on perfect tenses in a text-book by L. G. Alexander
> published by Longman has the following sentence: "She hasn't phoned
> me since a week ago."
>
> When I first saw it, it seemed rather strange to me. So I consulted
> Michael Swan's /Practical English Usage/ and this is what he says
> on the subject:
>
> — Start quote —
>
> An expression with 'ago' refers to a finished time, and is normally used
> with a past tense, not a present perfect.
>
> She phoned a few minutes ago.
>
> However, a present perfect tense is used with "since . . . ago"
> (as with "since + any other time expression).
>
> I've been living here since about eight years ago.
> I haven't bought any since a week ago.
>
> — End of quote —
>
> If I were to write these sentences myself, I would have written
> them differently:
>
> I have lived / been living here for eight years.
> I have lived / been living here since 1982.
> I haven't bought any for a week.
> I haven't bought any since last week.
>
> I never use this "since [time period] ago" structure myself and do
> not teach my students to use it.
>
> What is your attitude to this usage?
>
> --
> Irina Tkachova
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Alex Chernavsky wrote:
> >
> > Irina Tkachova wrote, in part:
> >
> > >I never use this "since [time period] ago" structure
> > >myself and do not teach my students to use it.
> > >
> > >What is your attitude to this usage?
> >
> > I agree with your opinion. Your original example sentence ("She
> > hasn't done it since a week ago") sounds odd. I don't have any
> > trouble understanding what the sentence *means*, but I would never
> > say it, and I don't think it's used much in the US.
>
> This USan has heard it and (I'm pretty sure) used it. The key is
> that I think of "a week ago" as defining a point in time.[1] So "a
> week ago" is, to me, equivalent to "Thursday" or "March 1" or "last
> Christmas." Once you allow that, it's plainly no problem to say
> something hasn't happend since "a week ago," just as one can say
> something hasn't happened "since last Christmas."
I'd say that the sentence as written is awkward for me, but wouldn't
be if you add a definite endpoint:
She hasn't done it since a week ago Thursday/today/last Friday.
Same with "a month ago" and "a year ago".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |"The Dynamics of Interbeing and
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |Monological Imperatives in 'Dick
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |and Jane' : A Study in Psychic
|Transrelational Modes."
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | Calvin
(650)857-7572
Stan Brown
>One of the exercises on perfect tenses in a text-book by L. G. Alexander
>published by Longman has the following sentence: "She hasn't phoned
>me since a week ago."
>
>When I first saw it, it seemed rather strange to me.
It seems strange to me too, but only slightly, and not because of
the tense. Since today is Saturday, I would expect that sentence to
read "She hasn't phoned me since last Saturday." If I didn't want
to be that specific, I'd say "She hasn't phoned me since last
week." I can't give any reason why either of those feels better
than "since a week ago", but I think it's a matter of style and not
of correct or incorrect idiom.
But it's not the tense that seems odd to me in your quoted
sentence. "Since a week ago" is a time period beginning about 168
hours in the past and extending up to the present, so I think the
present perfect tense is right. It's just that "a week ago" phrase
that bothers me, though only slightly.
Summary: I'd accept the sentence as written (and especially in
spoken English).
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA
http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/
alt.usage.English intro and FAQs: http://go.to/aue
WWWebster online dictionary: http://www.m-w.com/mw/netdict.htm
more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm
Irina Tkachova
One of the exercises on perfect tenses in a text-book by L. G. Alexander
published by Longman has the following sentence: "She hasn't phoned
me since a week ago."
When I first saw it, it seemed rather strange to me. So I consulted
Michael Swan's /Practical English Usage/ and this is what he says
on the subject:
— Start quote —
An expression with 'ago' refers to a finished time, and is normally used
with a past tense, not a present perfect.
She phoned a few minutes ago.
However, a present perfect tense is used with "since . . . ago"
(as with "since + any other time expression).
I've been living here since about eight years ago.
I haven't bought any since a week ago.
— End of quote —
If I were to write these sentences myself, I would have written
them differently:
I have lived / been living here for eight years.
I have lived / been living here since 1982.
I haven't bought any for a week.
I haven't bought any since last week.
I never use this "since [time period] ago" structure myself and do
not teach my students to use it.
What is your attitude to this usage?
--
Irina Tkachova
Dave Swindell
>> >myself and do not teach my students to use it.
>> >
>> >What is your attitude to this usage?
>>
>> it since a week ago") sounds odd. I don't have any trouble understanding
>> what the sentence *means*, but I would never say it, and I don't think it's
>> used much in the US.
>
>This USan has heard it and (I'm pretty sure) used it. The key is that I
>think of "a week ago" as defining a point in time.[1] So "a week ago"
>is, to me, equivalent to "Thursday" or "March 1" or "last Christmas."
>Once you allow that, it's plainly no problem to say something hasn't
>happend since "a week ago," just as one can say something hasn't
>happened "since last Christmas."
>
>to say "for a week," as in "She hasn't done it for a week." But I
>
"since X ago" looks very like munged German to me.
In the north of England you often hear expressions of the format "She
hasn't done it while a week", but I can't fathom what the origin of this
usage might be. Any suggestions?
Robert Lipton
Irina Tkachova wrote:
>
> One of the exercises on perfect tenses in a text-book by L. G. Alexander
> published by Longman has the following sentence: "She hasn't phoned
> me since a week ago."
>
> When I first saw it, it seemed rather strange to me. So I consulted
> Michael Swan's /Practical English Usage/ and this is what he says
> on the subject:
>
> — Start quote —
>
> An expression with 'ago' refers to a finished time, and is normally used
> with a past tense, not a present perfect.
>
> She phoned a few minutes ago.
>
> However, a present perfect tense is used with "since . . . ago"
> (as with "since + any other time expression).
>
> I've been living here since about eight years ago.
> I haven't bought any since a week ago.
>
> — End of quote —
>
> If I were to write these sentences myself, I would have written
> them differently:
>
> I have lived / been living here for eight years.
> I have lived / been living here since 1982.
> I haven't bought any for a week.
> I haven't bought any since last week.
>
> I never use this "since [time period] ago" structure myself and do
> not teach my students to use it.
>
> What is your attitude to this usage?
Although your proposed structure is correct and standard, the other form
is acceptable. There is a difference in the stress between
She has not called me in a week.
and
She has not called me since a week ago.
The former is a statement about her change in action, from calling you
to not calling you, which took place a week ago, or her former action of
calling you, now ended or in abeyance. The latter is a statement about
her current action -- or perhaps inaction -- of not calling you, which
arose a week ago. The distinction is not a serious one and your
formation is standard, proper English as phrase but, if you wish to
emphasis the current state as opposed to the changeover or old
construction, the latter might be preferred.
In addition, there are a couple of cases which might cause a native
speaker to use the latter formation.
1: in response to the question "How long (has is been) since she called
you?" it would be normal parallel construction to reply "She hasn't
called me since a week ago."
2: If the date of the changeover is significant enough to have a name,
then the 'since' construction might be preferred. Thus
She hasn't spoken to me since Tuesday.
She hasn't spoken to me since my mother's birthday.
She hasn't spoken to me since Christmas.
She hasn't spoken to me since the morning of a year ago come St.
Swithin's Day.
Bob
Geenius at Wrok
> One of the exercises on perfect tenses in a text-book by L. G. Alexander
> published by Longman has the following sentence: "She hasn't phoned
> me since a week ago."
This isn't wrong, but it's not the first way I'd think of saying it. More
natural would be, "She hasn't phoned me for a week."
--
"I wish EVERY day could be a shearing festival!" -- The 10 Commandments
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Live with honor, endure with grace "I notice you have a cloud of doom.
Keith Ammann is gee...@enteract.com I must admit it makes you seem
www.enteract.com/~geenius * Lun Yu 2:24 dangerous and sexy."
Irina Tkachova
Many thanks to those who answered my question about the usage of
"since [time period] ago" structure.
I have another question connected with sentences like "She hasn't
phoned me since a week ago."
This question is addressed to those of you who know some foreign
language. If you try to translate this sentence into, say, French or
German or any other language, can you find a good equivalent to it?
Will you translate it differently from the structure without "ago"?
I am asking this question because it is a real mouthful when we try
to translate it into Russian preserving the word "ago"; none of my
students can manage it. There are no problems with "She hasn't
phoned me since last week" or She hasn't phoned me for / in a week."
It is this combination of "since" with "ago" that complicates everything.
--
Irina Tkachova
Polar
Forgive me, but just why are you putting your students through this?
You are requiring them to translate an inaccurate English sentence
into its equivalent in [foreign language]. IMHO -- unless I
misunderstand the project -- the effort is misguided.
Better to have them translate the correct English: "She hasn't phoned
me for a week.'
I can email you some translations of *that* sentence into FR, SP,
GER,IT if you're interested, but I don't thinking going along the
"ago" path is a fruitful exercise for your students.
--
Polar
F.-J. Harbecke
Irina Tkachova <irina...@mtu-net.ru> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
8c7aqn$25vj$1...@gavrilo.mtu.ru...
>
> Many thanks to those who answered my question about the usage of
> "since [time period] ago" structure.
>
> I have another question connected with sentences like "She hasn't
> phoned me since a week ago."
>
> This question is addressed to those of you who know some foreign
> language. If you try to translate this sentence into, say, French or
> German or any other language, can you find a good equivalent to it?
> Will you translate it differently from the structure without "ago"?
>
> I am asking this question because it is a real mouthful when we try
> to translate it into Russian preserving the word "ago"; none of my
> students can manage it. There are no problems with "She hasn't
> phoned me since last week" or She hasn't phoned me for / in a week."
> It is this combination of "since" with "ago" that complicates everything.
>
> Irina Tkachova
>
German: "Sie hat mich seit einer Woche nicht / nicht mehr angerufen."
If I wanted to keep the "ago" in the sentence I'd have to say "Sie hat mich
seit _vor_ einer Woche nicht mehr angerufen." -- which is possible, but
rather awkward and certainly not what I would think of first as a German
native speaker.
Best wishes,
Franz-Josef
Mark Brader
> I have another question connected with sentences like "She hasn't
> phoned me since a week ago."
>
> This question is addressed to those of you who know some foreign
> language. If you try to translate this sentence into, say, French or
> German or any other language, can you find a good equivalent to it?
> Will you translate it differently from the structure without "ago"?
I don't know any foreign languages well enough to answer a question
like that, but perhaps the following example dialogue will clarify
the use of "a week ago".
She hasn't phoned me since we went to that movie.
When was that?
It was... hmm... it was a week ago.
She hasn't phoned you since a week ago?
That's right.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Effective immediately, all memos are to be written
m...@vex.net | in clear, active-voice English." -- US gov't memo
F.-J. Harbecke
"Sie hat mich vor einer Woche zuletzt angerufen." -- which would mean that
she last phoned me more or less exactly a week ago.
However, I tend to agree with Polar's questions and suggestions in the
parallel post.
Best wishes,
Franz-Josef
K. Edgcombe
Stan Brown <bra...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Said irina...@mtu-net.ru (Irina Tkachova) in alt.usage.english:
>>me since a week ago."
>>
>
I would find it acceptable, but only if she did, in fact, phone me a week ago.
You could say "she hasn't had a decent meal since a week ago", and that would
definitely imply that she did have one (exactly) a week ago.
If you were just asserting that she hasn't had a decent meal in the last week
to your knowledge, but you don't know what may have happened before that, then
your sentence won't do.
So I think it is perfectly all right, but might not be used very often (in those
circumstances I'd be more likely to say "since last week" or "since Monday",
for instance.
Katy
Dr J D Collins
Alexander
> published by Longman has the following sentence: "She hasn't phoned
> me since a week ago."
>
> Michael Swan's /Practical English Usage/ and this is what he says
> on the subject:
>
> — Start quote —
>
> An expression with 'ago' refers to a finished time, and is normally
used
> with a past tense, not a present perfect.
>
> She phoned a few minutes ago.
>
> However, a present perfect tense is used with "since . . . ago"
> (as with "since + any other time expression).
>
> I've been living here since about eight years ago.
> I haven't bought any since a week ago.
>
> — End of quote —
>
> If I were to write these sentences myself, I would have written
> them differently:
>
> I have lived / been living here for eight years.
> I have lived / been living here since 1982.
> I haven't bought any for a week.
> I haven't bought any since last week.
>
> I never use this "since [time period] ago" structure myself and do
> not teach my students to use it.
>
> What is your attitude to this usage?
I certainly would not use "since" with "ago". Besides sounding wrong
the Oxford Thesaurus
gives both of these as synonyms for "past" so that there is an element
of redundancy in using them both together. The following usage guide
is given in the Collins Dictionary for "since" used after "ago":
"Usage. The use of ago with since (it's ten years ago since he wrote
the novel) is redundant and is therefore avoided in careful English.
Ago should be followed by that: it was ten years ago that he wrote the
novel."
I would think that it should equally apply for "since" used before
"ago"
Regards
John Collins
Irina Tkachova
>>language. If you try to translate this sentence into, say, French or
>>German or any other language, can you find a good equivalent to it?
>>Will you translate it differently from the structure without "ago"?
>Forgive me, but just why are you putting your students through this?
>You are requiring them to translate an inaccurate English sentence
>into its equivalent in [foreign language]. IMHO -- unless I
>misunderstand the project -- the effort is misguided.
I am not teaching my students to use "since [time period] ago" form,
nor am I requiring them to translate such structures into Russian - on
the contrary, it is my students who demand an adequate translation
from me when they come across structures like that. And I fail to
provide a good Russian sentence with "ago" preserved.
As a matter of fact, perfect tenses are very difficult for Russian
learners. One of the conclusions they can draw from textbooks that
helps them to choose between simple past and present perfect is:
phrases with "ago" can be understood as answers to "When" questions.
So, use simple past: "She phoned me a week ago."
>Better to have them translate the correct English: "She hasn't phoned
>me for a week.'
That is the standard form with for / since that I teach my students to
use. They have enough trouble as it is trying to use this tense correctly;
I would be the last one to add to their burden.
> I can email you some translations of *that* sentence into FR, SP,
> GER,IT if you're interested, but I don't thinking going along the
> "ago" path is a fruitful exercise for your students.
Could you email me French translations, please? They are just for
my knowledge.
But as I cannot withdraw an exercise from a textbook, I think will
use what Mark Brader in <8c847f$b20$1...@news.tht.net> wrote:
> perhaps the following example dialogue will clarify
> the use of "a week ago".
> She hasn't phoned me since we went to that movie.
> When was that?
> It was... hmm... it was a week ago.
> She hasn't phoned you since a week ago?
> That's right.
I think it is a good example and I am going to keep it to show my students.
--
Irina Tkachova
Richard Fontana
>
> One of the exercises on perfect tenses in a text-book by L. G. Alexander
> published by Longman has the following sentence: "She hasn't phoned
> me since a week ago."
>
> When I first saw it, it seemed rather strange to me.
To me it seems slightly wrong, but not so wrong that I wouldn't
expect to hear it from some native speakers in informal speech. It
doesn't work in my idiolect.
> So I consulted
> Michael Swan's /Practical English Usage/ and this is what he says
> on the subject:
>
> — Start quote —
>
> An expression with 'ago' refers to a finished time, and is normally used
> with a past tense, not a present perfect.
>
> She phoned a few minutes ago.
>
> However, a present perfect tense is used with "since . . . ago"
> (as with "since + any other time expression).
>
> I've been living here since about eight years ago.
> I haven't bought any since a week ago.
>
> — End of quote —
>
> If I were to write these sentences myself, I would have written
> them differently:
>
> I have lived / been living here for eight years.
> I have lived / been living here since 1982.
> I haven't bought any for a week.
> I haven't bought any since last week.
I would also have written -- or said -- them this way. I can only
imagine saying them the Swan way if I were speaking without
benefit of correction. E.g.: "I've been living here since [...
pause to remember year, enough so that I forget precise structure
of just-uttered beginning of sentence] ... oh, about eight
years ago". I might say that. It certainly *looks* wrong to
me.
> I never use this "since [time period] ago" structure myself and do
> not teach my students to use it.
>
> What is your attitude to this usage?
It seems wrong enough to me that I would correct non-native speakers
who engage in this usage. However, perhaps it is entirely acceptable
and usual in UK English? I can imagine it being acceptable in some
US dialects.
RF
Robert Lieblich
[ . . . ]
> I certainly would not use "since" with "ago". Besides sounding wrong
Nice dangler.
> the Oxford Thesaurus
> gives both of these as synonyms for "past" so that there is an element
> of redundancy in using them both together. The following usage guide
> is given in the Collins Dictionary for "since" used after "ago":
>
> "Usage. The use of ago with since (it's ten years ago since he wrote
> the novel) is redundant and is therefore avoided in careful English.
> Ago should be followed by that: it was ten years ago that he wrote the
> novel."
>
> I would think that it should equally apply for "since" used before
> "ago"
Well, if you don't acknowledge the legitimacy of a sentence like "I
haven't seen him since a week ago,"[1] I guess there's no harm done.
But for those of us who do allow such sentences, I don't see how you can
omit either "since" or "ago" without messing them up. You get either "I
haven't seen him a week ago" or "I haven't seen him since a week." The
latter may have some dialectal currency, but it's hardly standard
English.
It's always risky to generalize from one example to another in English.
The rule that fits one example just fine may be useless in another
context.
[1] I think many have commented that "I haven't seen him for a week" is
simpler and at least as idiomatic as "I haven't seen him since a week
ago." That's not the point here.