The Bill and pronunciation of ma'm
Arne H. Wilstrup
in London really said to their superior "ma'm" (i.e.
pronounced mam as "mahm") and whether they used the word
"gov'" etc.
Consequently I wrote to the Metropolitan Police in London and
asked and the answer was that the series "The Bill" was very
accurate on this point and very accurate in the other points
in the series apart from the fact that the real police did not
solve all the crimes within an hour :-)
So the real police in London actually DO pronounce "ma'm" with
a rhyme with palm.
Thank you for all your contributions! :-)
Arne H. Wilstrup
Denmark
Lars Eighner
lovely and talented Arne H. Wilstrup broadcast on alt.usage.english:
> So the real police in London actually DO pronounce "ma'm" with
> a rhyme with palm.
Not in my dialect (Texas English) in which the 'l' is pronounced. You can
talk people out of pronouncing the 'l' in 'salmon,' but in 'palm' you
have a much sterner task.
--
Lars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> use...@larseighner.com
"If a book is worth reading, it is worth buying". --John Ruskin
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> In our last episode, <48a12b00$0$15878$edfad...@dtext01.news.tele.dk>, the
> lovely and talented Arne H. Wilstrup broadcast on alt.usage.english:
>
> > So the real police in London actually DO pronounce "ma'm" with
> > a rhyme with palm.
>
> Not in my dialect (Texas English) in which the 'l' is pronounced. You can
> talk people out of pronouncing the 'l' in 'salmon,' but in 'palm' you
> have a much sterner task.
Is that a regional thing? I thought it was just a spelling
pronunciation that's common in the U.S. And just out of curiosity, do
you remember what you were taught in school? I was certainly taught
that the "l" was silent in all the -alm monosyllables.
--
Jerry Friedman pronounces the "l" in "almond".
Arne H. Wilstrup
"Lars Eighner" <use...@larseighner.com> skrev i meddelelsen
news:slrnga2ddf....@debranded.larseighner.com...
>> So the real police in London actually DO pronounce "ma'm"
with
>> a rhyme with palm.
>
> Not in my dialect (Texas English) in which the 'l' is
> pronounced. You can
> talk people out of pronouncing the 'l' in 'salmon,' but in
> 'palm' you
> have a much sterner task.
And probably not in pidgin English, in Arab English etc., but
´what did I refer to?
I was talking of British English as the series is British -
you might pronounce the 'l' but do you also pronounce the
vowel (a) like 'hat' in the word 'palm'- or do you have any
´open as' in your pronounciation.
I thought that it was obvious that I talked about British
English when I talked about the London Police and the series
"The Bill" which is British- but I am sorry that it did not
seem to be obvious.
Arne H. Wilstrup
Denmark
Barbara Bailey
news:61615eb8-18f4-4a3c...@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:
I learned it that way (with the "l" pronounced, that is,) as well, in the
Midwest. It's not pronounced at all in "salmon", and it's sort of half-
heartedly acknowledged in "almond".
Lars Eighner
lovely and talented Arne H. Wilstrup broadcast on alt.usage.english:
> "Lars Eighner" <use...@larseighner.com> skrev i meddelelsen
> news:slrnga2ddf....@debranded.larseighner.com...
> >> So the real police in London actually DO pronounce "ma'm"
> with
>>> a rhyme with palm.
>>
>> Not in my dialect (Texas English) in which the 'l' is
>> pronounced. You can
>> talk people out of pronouncing the 'l' in 'salmon,' but in
>> 'palm' you
>> have a much sterner task.
> And probably not in pidgin English, in Arab English etc., but
> ´what did I refer to?
> I was talking of British English as the series is British -
> you might pronounce the 'l' but do you also pronounce the
> vowel (a) like 'hat' in the word 'palm'- or do you have any
> ´open as' in your pronunciation.
> I thought that it was obvious that I talked about British
> English when I talked about the London Police and the series
> "The Bill" which is British- but I am sorry that it did not
> seem to be obvious.
This is an omnibus response to several above.
Yes, it was perfectly clear you were talking about the BrE pronunciation
of "ma'm" and "gov."
Those who pronounce "palm" with the 'l' generally pronounce it with what we
used to call a 'broad a' -- like the first vowel of 'father': rhymes with
"bother," but not "lather."
In school we were warned not to pronounce the 'l' in 'salmon' but nothing
was said that I can now recall about 'almond' and 'palm.' I agree with
Barbara that there is gradation in the 'l' among those who pronounce so it
is very distinct in 'palm,' less so in 'almond,' and slight in 'salmon.' I
suppose various speakers drop it altogether at different points. Perhaps
those who expect it, hear it when it is not really there --- as rhotic
speakers hear extra r's in nonrhotic speech.
I thought it was reginal, but I admit this was an impression based on
little or no data. It maybe one of those variations that occurs between
speakers in several dialects.
--
Lars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> use...@larseighner.com
"Everything in the world exists to end up in a book." --Stephane Mallarme
James Silverton
>> On Aug 12, 1:09 am, Lars Eighner <use...@larseighner.com> wrote:
>>> In our last episode,
>>> <48a12b00$0$15878$edfad...@dtext01.news.tele.dk>, the lovely
>>> and talented Arne H. Wilstrup broadcast on alt.usage.english:
>>>
>> >> So the real police in London actually DO pronounce "ma'm"
>> >> with a rhyme with palm.
>>>
>>> Not in my dialect (Texas English) in which the 'l' is
>>> pronounced. You can talk people out of pronouncing the 'l'
>>> in 'salmon,' but in 'palm' you have a much sterner task.
>>
>> Is that a regional thing? I thought it was just a spelling
>> pronunciation that's common in the U.S. And just out of
>> curiosity, do you remember what you were taught in school? I
>> was certainly taught that the "l" was silent in all the -alm
>> monosyllables.
I suppose Garrison Keeler comes from the US mid-west and I seem not to
detect him using "l" and indeed he pronounces "al" as /O/ in balmy,
palm, psalm and salmon. To leave ASCII IPA, I would say he uses "sorm"
for psalm.
--
James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland
Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> In our last episode, <48a1db31$0$15881$edfad...@dtext01.news.tele.dk>, the
I think you can also hear American versions of the "caught" vowel.
For some strange reason, my natural pronunciation of "Palmer" is
"pawlmer" /'pOlmR/, I think.
> In school we were warned not to pronounce the 'l' in 'salmon' but nothing
> was said that I can now recall about 'almond' and 'palm.'
And AHD still, prescriptively enough, recognizes only "pahm". M-W,
being more descriptive, gives all four possibilities (but no
Charlestonian "pam").
I should know better than to be surprised when people learned things
in school that disagree with authorities, such as dictionaries. I was
taught that "cot" and "caught" have the same vowel, though most of us
kids pronounced them differently, and we even had a book that told to
say "Mondee", etc.
> I agree with
> Barbara that there is gradation in the 'l' among those who pronounce so it
> is very distinct in 'palm,' less so in 'almond,' and slight in 'salmon.'
Hm. For me as a non-lambdaic palmist, "almond" has just as distinct
an "l" as "almost", "full monty", etc.
> I
> suppose various speakers drop it altogether at different points. Perhaps
> those who expect it, hear it when it is not really there --- as rhotic
> speakers hear extra r's in nonrhotic speech.
>
> I thought it was reginal, but I admit this was an impression based on
> little or no data. It maybe one of those variations that occurs between
> speakers in several dialects.
The latter is my impression, with data just as good as yours.
Somebody somewhere probably knows.
--
Jerry Friedman
R H Draney
>
>I suppose Garrison Keeler comes from the US mid-west and I seem not to
>detect him using "l" and indeed he pronounces "al" as /O/ in balmy,
>palm, psalm and salmon. To leave ASCII IPA, I would say he uses "sorm"
>for psalm.
"Sawmun"?...it's a good thing he's in Minnesota; he'd never survive anywhere the
fish actually live....r
--
Evelyn Wood just looks at the pictures.
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
wrote:
> Barbara wrote on Tue, 12 Aug 2008 20:52:52 +0200 (CEST):
>
>
>
> >> On Aug 12, 1:09 am, Lars Eighner <use...@larseighner.com> wrote:
> >>> In our last episode,
> >>> <48a12b00$0$15878$edfad...@dtext01.news.tele.dk>, the lovely
> >>> and talented Arne H. Wilstrup broadcast on alt.usage.english:
>
> >> >> So the real police in London actually DO pronounce "ma'm"
> >> >> with a rhyme with palm.
>
> >>> Not in my dialect (Texas English) in which the 'l' is
> >>> pronounced. You can talk people out of pronouncing the 'l'
> >>> in 'salmon,' but in 'palm' you have a much sterner task.
>
> >> Is that a regional thing? I thought it was just a spelling
> >> pronunciation that's common in the U.S. And just out of
> >> curiosity, do you remember what you were taught in school? I
> >> was certainly taught that the "l" was silent in all the -alm
> >> monosyllables.
>
> I suppose Garrison Keeler comes from the US mid-west
Anoka, Minn., says Wikipedia.
> and I seem not to
> detect him using "l" and indeed he pronounces "al" as /O/ in balmy,
> palm, psalm and salmon.
That's the pronunciation I grew up with--same vowel as in "talk"--and
the only one of mine I now try to correct (to bahmy, pahm, etc.) But
like R, I'd expect Keillor to say "sammon" /'s&m@n/. At least that's
what I expect R expects.
> To leave ASCII IPA, I would say he uses "sorm"
> for psalm.
By now a lot of us Americans are used to reading that as "sawm".
--
Jerry Friedman
Mark Barratt
> Some time ago I asked whether it was correct that the police
> in London really said to their superior "ma'm" (i.e.
> pronounced mam as "mahm") and whether they used the word
> "gov'" etc.
>
> Consequently I wrote to the Metropolitan Police in London and
> asked and the answer was that the series "The Bill" was very
> accurate on this point and very accurate in the other points
> in the series apart from the fact that the real police did not
> solve all the crimes within an hour :-)
>
> So the real police in London actually DO pronounce "ma'm" with
> a rhyme with palm.
I wouldn't say that it rhymes with "palm", although the difference may
be more in the way that I perceive the word than the way that my ears
actually hear it (emic versus etic). The word is, after all, "madam",
with the 'd' dropped - as such, it feels to me like a two-syllable word.
"Madam" is /'ma d@m/ in Standard Southern English, and dropping the 'd'
ought to produce /'ma @m/, and that's the way my British perceptual
system hears it.
I wouldn't put money on an independent arbiter being able to distinguish
between this and /mA:m/, though (which would indeed rhyme with 'palm'
/pA:m/).
Glenn Knickerbocker
> you remember what you were taught in school? I was certainly taught
> that the "l" was silent in all the -alm monosyllables.
I had more than one teacher here in the Hudson Valley who insisted that
the "l" was silent, but then pronounced it just like the rest of us.
> Jerry Friedman pronounces the "l" in "almond".
More than that, I pronounce the "al" in "almond" like the word "all,"
with a higher, further back vowel than in the "-alm" words.
ŹR
Steve Hayes
>By now a lot of us Americans are used to reading that as "sawm".
As in sawmill?
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Amethyst Deceiver
> Arne H. Wilstrup wrote:
> > Some time ago I asked whether it was correct that the police
> > in London really said to their superior "ma'm" (i.e.
> > pronounced mam as "mahm") and whether they used the word
> > "gov'" etc.
> >
> > Consequently I wrote to the Metropolitan Police in London and
> > asked and the answer was that the series "The Bill" was very
> > accurate on this point and very accurate in the other points
> > in the series apart from the fact that the real police did not
> > solve all the crimes within an hour :-)
> >
> > So the real police in London actually DO pronounce "ma'm" with
> > a rhyme with palm.
>
> I wouldn't say that it rhymes with "palm", although the difference may
> be more in the way that I perceive the word than the way that my ears
> actually hear it (emic versus etic). The word is, after all, "madam",
> with the 'd' dropped - as such, it feels to me like a two-syllable word.
> "Madam" is /'ma d@m/ in Standard Southern English, and dropping the 'd'
> ought to produce /'ma @m/, and that's the way my British perceptual
> system hears it.
I hear, and pronounce it, as /mA:m/. If I speak anything, it's SSE.
> I wouldn't put money on an independent arbiter being able to distinguish
> between this and /mA:m/, though (which would indeed rhyme with 'palm'
> /pA:m/).
/'ma @m/ sounds completely different from /mA:m/, though. The vowel is
different.
--
Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary