(Long) Oxford book
Tony Cooper
sender will remain nameless (but appreciated) lest others here get
their noses out-of-joint because they have not been sent a book. The
book is set in Oxford in the late 1950s and written by an American
woman in the first person. Some comments/questions about the book.
Her son refers to his father as his "Pop". I recognize it as an
established term, but have never used it or even heard it used in
person. It's something television characters call their father.
Would it even be a recognized term in the UK?
The author rents a house in Oxford and is told by the house's owner to
clean the Rayburn's flue once a month and that the stove blacking is
in the cupboard. I've seen "stove blacking" before, but what is it
and how is it used? From the familiar phrase of "shoe black", I
assume it's polish, but I can't picture polishing a stove.
She is also told that the Rayburn is good for making Melba toast. We
purchase Melba toast in packages, but it never occurred to me that it
would be made at home. I thought Nabisco or someone was the maker of
Melba toast.
She refers to stores that have "early closing" on Thursday. I was
quite aware of this when I was in the UK, but I wonder if it was ever
a practice in the US. I don't remember it. Is it still a practice in
the UK?
Someone points out that Magdalen College is pronounced "maudlin". I
wonder if people in Oxford are still laughing at this American who
repeatedly pronounced it "mag-dell-en" when he was there. That's what
I don't like about the Brits....they are too damn polite to correct
you.
I expected problems with Balliol, and quickly mumbled through it, but
I didn't expect problems with Magdalen.
Things I didn't know: Anyone that teaches at Oxford is a Don, short
for Dominus. I thought a Don was a level of teacher. Hot milk is
sometimes provided with tea. That a British male, when dancing, leads
with his right foot (We lead with the left). "Oxbridge" means both
Oxford and Cambridge. I thought it was a term about Oxford. I'm
still not sure about "Oxan".
Things I wonder about: Do pay phones in England still have the "B"
button? Do they still build buildings in England with the water pipes
on the outside walls? I understand what "U" and "non-U" mean, but
what does the "U" stand for? Do the Brits still refer to business as
"custom"? A company here is pleased to have your business.
Words/terms that I hadn't come across before: Maizie, for what the
English call what we call a frog (for holding flowers in a vase).
Drawing pins for what we call thumb-tacks. A doom painting as a
description of a painting of the Last Judgement. 7:45 for 8:00 on an
invitation. "Faults and Service Difficulties" for what we call simply
"Repair" at the telephone company.
Things I found almost extraordinary: A discussion about "bilateral"
schools. I thought I understood the public and comprehensive school
divide, but "bilateral" is a concept that is a bit much.
Things I missed when I was in Oxford: The Carfax. I'm so used to
congested intersections that Oxford's seemed rather ordinary.
Things that struck me: It seems that most of the aue regulars that are
from the UK do not practice a religion. Yet, so many of the UK
tourist attractions are churches, cathedrals, abbeys and other
religious buildings. Each of the colleges at Oxford have a chapel.
You seldom read a book about the UK without one of the characters
being the Rector or the Vicar or the woman that does the flowers in
the church. A British tourist could do the whole of the US and might
visit only three religious buildings: The Old North Church in Boston,
St Patrick's Cathedral in New York, and the Mormon Tabernacle. If you
read a book set in America, you might read about a Rabbi or a Priest,
but seldom anyone with a religious title. It's America, though, that
is associated with religion.
I find, after reading this book, that I am more confused about Oxford
(the institution, not the city) than I was before. I knew that Oxford
consists of several colleges, but I had no idea there were so many.
Thirty-nine? "Oxford University" doesn't seem to exist other than
some sort of blanket term that encompasses all of the colleges. I've
visited Oxford, but only recall (what I would call) the major
colleges. If someone mentioned Nuffield and Keble, for example, I
wouldn't have associated them with Oxford.
As an American, I think of a university as an entity of colleges, but
that a student at a college is a student of the university. I'm not
sure that's clear, so I'll rephrase. I attended Indiana University.
I have a degree in business from Indiana University, so I suppose I
attended the college of business. Yet, I don't even know the name of
this college or that it even has a name. I took journalism courses at
the School of Journalism at Indiana University. Often, we use
"school" instead of "college" even though the school is one of the
colleges that make up the university.
I consider myself a graduate of Indiana University. I gather that an
Oxonian (right term?) Graduates (right term?) from Merton but says he
was at Oxford. President Clinton was a Rhodes Scholar and it is
written that he went to Oxford. But, it seems that he really attended
University College. Most references to his experience, though, just
say he attended Oxford. I wonder if UK newspapers use University
College or Oxford when they write about Clinton.
Another point raised in the book is the House. The author's son lives
at home (or in the house that the parents have rented for the year)
but is a member of Wilkinson House. I have always thought that the
House is where the student lives and that day students wouldn't be in
a House. Would all of the members of Wilkinson House attend the same
college? ObAue construction: Heads of House. I'd normally say "the
heads of the houses."
The UK reader of this is probably thinking that I'm thick as two short
planks by now, but you have no idea how totally different this Oxford
thing is to the American university concept. You guys attend Jesus
College, but you row for Oxford! And I didn't even cover the seven
Halls.
It was a fascinating book for me. I've read hundreds of British
novels, but when you're immersed in a plot you just absorb the terms
in context. This book is without a plot, and is just a recounting of
an American's experiences living in Oxford. Kind of a "A Year in
Provence" with rising damp and chilblains.
And, finally, a quote from the book: "Cricket's no game. Somebody has
to *move* before you can call something a game."
The book is "These Ruins Are Inhabited", Muriel Beadle, written in
1958 but published in 1961.
Mickwick
[Pop]
>Would it even be a recognized term in the UK?
Yes.
>The author rents a house in Oxford and is told by the house's owner to
>clean the Rayburn's flue once a month and that the stove blacking is
>in the cupboard. I've seen "stove blacking" before, but what is it
>and how is it used? From the familiar phrase of "shoe black", I
>assume it's polish, but I can't picture polishing a stove.
Stove blacking serves a similar purpose but it's not so oily. (And it
has nothing to do with cleaning flues.)
[...]
>Someone points out that Magdalen College is pronounced "maudlin". I
>wonder if people in Oxford are still laughing at this American who
>repeatedly pronounced it "mag-dell-en" when he was there. That's what
>I don't like about the Brits....they are too damn polite to correct
>you. I expected problems with Balliol, and quickly mumbled through it,
>but I didn't expect problems with Magdalen.
Stick with Cambridge next time, then.
[...]
>Things I wonder about: Do pay phones in England still have the "B"
>button?
No.
> Do they still build buildings in England with the water pipes on the
>outside walls?
No. (Yes.)
> I understand what "U" and "non-U" mean, but what does the "U" stand
>for?
Urquhart. (Unpronounceable unless you're born to it but it sounds
something like 'chumly'.)
> Do the Brits still refer to business as "custom"?
Yes.
> A company here is pleased to have your business.
Slow down, matey! I haven't sent my details yet.
[...]
>Another point raised in the book is the House. The author's son lives
>at home (or in the house that the parents have rented for the year)
>but is a member of Wilkinson House. I have always thought that the
>House is where the student lives and that day students wouldn't be in
>a House. Would all of the members of Wilkinson House attend the same
>college? ObAue construction: Heads of House. I'd normally say "the
>heads of the houses."
The House, in an Oxonian context, means ... but that would be telling.
(Actually, I've forgotten, actually, don't you know. It's one of the
colleges. The one where all the clever hoorays go.)
[...]
>The book is "These Ruins Are Inhabited", Muriel Beadle, written in
>1958 but published in 1961.
I shall wait at least as long before I read it.
--
Mickwick
Mickwick
>The House, in an Oxonian context, means ... but that would be telling.
>(Actually, I've forgotten, actually, don't you know. It's one of the
>colleges. The one where all the clever hoorays go.)
Balliol?
--
Mickwick
John Hatpin
>The author rents a house in Oxford and is told by the house's owner to
>clean the Rayburn's flue once a month and that the stove blacking is
>in the cupboard. I've seen "stove blacking" before, but what is it
>and how is it used? From the familiar phrase of "shoe black", I
>assume it's polish, but I can't picture polishing a stove.
I think it comes in a tube, like toothpaste. Unlike most toothpastes,
it's black. You use a cloth to rub it into cast iron until it gleams.
Aesthetics aside, it prevents corrosion.
I've been sitting here trying to remember the main brand name, but
with no success.
>She refers to stores that have "early closing" on Thursday. I was
>quite aware of this when I was in the UK, but I wonder if it was ever
>a practice in the US. I don't remember it. Is it still a practice in
>the UK?
If you mean the practice of a whole area - a town centre, say -
closing for a regular mid-week afternoon by mutual agreement, I've not
seen that for years. It used to be very common, though. One town
might have early closing on Wednesday, and a neighbouring town on
Tuesday. Same every week.
>Things I wonder about: Do pay phones in England still have the "B"
>button?
No, not for a long time. I was born in 1960, and can only just
remember them. And even that might be a false memory.
>Do they still build buildings in England with the water pipes
>on the outside walls?
Yes, at least between the mains supply and the internal plumbing.
It's usually only a very short section - perhaps a foot or two - and
it's normally insulated against frost.
>I understand what "U" and "non-U" mean, but
>what does the "U" stand for?
Upper-class. "Non-U" carries the implication of middle class.
>Do the Brits still refer to business as
>"custom"? A company here is pleased to have your business.
Yes, it's still fairly widely used, particularly in smaller
businesses.
--
John H
Yorkshire, England
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>>Someone points out that Magdalen College is pronounced "maudlin". I
>>wonder if people in Oxford are still laughing at this American who
>>repeatedly pronounced it "mag-dell-en" when he was there. That's what
>>I don't like about the Brits....they are too damn polite to correct
>>you. I expected problems with Balliol, and quickly mumbled through it,
>>but I didn't expect problems with Magdalen.
>
>Stick with Cambridge next time, then.
>
I erred when I posted this and put it in aeu instead of aue. Then I
posted it here. I was told in aeu that Cambridge has a Magedalen (add
an "e"), but it is also pronounced "maudlin". What's my fall-back?
>>The book is "These Ruins Are Inhabited", Muriel Beadle, written in
>>1958 but published in 1961.
>
>I shall wait at least as long before I read it.
It may not be of interest to you. If I come across a book written by
an Englishman that spends a year at Indiana University, I'll let you
know. You may have questions. You can bring up things like "corn"
and "maize". There must be other differences between England and
Indiana, but that's the only thing that comes immediately to mind.
Tony Cooper
<nos...@brookview.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>Things I wonder about: Do pay phones in England still have the "B"
>>button?
>
>No, not for a long time. I was born in 1960, and can only just
>remember them. And even that might be a false memory.
I used them when I was first there in the early 60s. You may not have
been able to reach the buttons at the time I was over.
I was thinking of those phones when I first used a Nextel phone. They
have a band that communicates to other phones by pressing buttons. As
with the A and B buttons, I kept forgetting to push and release and
found myself talking to air.
Jess Askin
"Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3cajv0db96ofd519s...@4ax.com...
One has hoosiers and the other has hosers? Oh wait, that's Canada.
John Dean
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 02:28:04 +0000, Mickwick <mick...@use.reply.to>
> wrote:
>
>>> Someone points out that Magdalen College is pronounced "maudlin". I
>>> wonder if people in Oxford are still laughing at this American who
>>> repeatedly pronounced it "mag-dell-en" when he was there. That's
>>> what I don't like about the Brits....they are too damn polite to
>>> correct you. I expected problems with Balliol, and quickly mumbled
>>> through it, but I didn't expect problems with Magdalen.
>>
>> Stick with Cambridge next time, then.
>>
>
> I erred when I posted this and put it in aeu instead of aue. Then I
> posted it here. I was told in aeu that Cambridge has a Magedalen (add
> an "e"), but it is also pronounced "maudlin". What's my fall-back?
>
--
John Dean
Oxford
don groves
john...@frag.lineone.net hath writ:
So it's "Mary Maudlin" over there then?
--
dg (domain=ccwebster)
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>The author rents a house in Oxford and is told by the house's owner to
>clean the Rayburn's flue once a month and that the stove blacking is
>in the cupboard. I've seen "stove blacking" before, but what is it
>and how is it used? From the familiar phrase of "shoe black", I
>assume it's polish, but I can't picture polishing a stove.
Old-fashioned coal stoves, made of cast iron, were often polished with stove
blacking.
>She is also told that the Rayburn is good for making Melba toast. We
>purchase Melba toast in packages, but it never occurred to me that it
>would be made at home. I thought Nabisco or someone was the maker of
>Melba toast.
Well yes.
An American once said she had occasionally made macaroni & cheese "from
scratch", and I pictured her mixing semolina or whatever, and rolling it out
and putting it on the roof to dry. It turned out that was not what she meant
at all, but was just not an MRE.
Melba toast is as described in the dictionary, "very thin crisp toast"; I
don't know what a Rayburn is, though from the context I would guess it is a
brand of coal stove, like an "Aga Cooker", but I've made Melba toast in the
oven of our electric stove at home. Just cut into thin slices and bake with a
low herat rather than grill (AmE=broil).
>Someone points out that Magdalen College is pronounced "maudlin". I
>wonder if people in Oxford are still laughing at this American who
>repeatedly pronounced it "mag-dell-en" when he was there. That's what
>I don't like about the Brits....they are too damn polite to correct
>you.
>I expected problems with Balliol, and quickly mumbled through it, but
>I didn't expect problems with Magdalen.
I knew about Magdalen, but what about Balliol?
>Things I didn't know: Anyone that teaches at Oxford is a Don, short
>for Dominus. I thought a Don was a level of teacher. Hot milk is
>sometimes provided with tea. That a British male, when dancing, leads
>with his right foot (We lead with the left). "Oxbridge" means both
>Oxford and Cambridge. I thought it was a term about Oxford. I'm
>still not sure about "Oxan".
I thought hot milk in tea was confined to white Afrikaans-speaking members of
the South African civil service. I'd never have expected it in Britain.
>Things I wonder about: Do pay phones in England still have the "B"
>button? Do they still build buildings in England with the water pipes
>on the outside walls? I understand what "U" and "non-U" mean, but
>what does the "U" stand for? Do the Brits still refer to business as
>"custom"? A company here is pleased to have your business.
The only time I ever saw a B button on a phone was in Salisbury airport,
Rhodesia, when I was on the lam from the South African security police, and
tried to use the phone to call some relatives while I was waiting to change
planes. My destination was England and I never saw a button B when I got
there. That was in 1966, just after UDI.
While driving to Bulawayo on the way there, my English companion tried to
prepare me for England, and told me that they had a system there called STD.
In those days that did not mean Sexually Transmitted Disease but Subscriber
Trunk Dialling.
Custom as in customer? Do you not speak of customers in the USA?
>Words/terms that I hadn't come across before: Maizie, for what the
>English call what we call a frog (for holding flowers in a vase).
>Drawing pins for what we call thumb-tacks. A doom painting as a
>description of a painting of the Last Judgement. 7:45 for 8:00 on an
>invitation. "Faults and Service Difficulties" for what we call simply
>"Repair" at the telephone company.
Drawing pins, 7:45 for 8 and "Faults and service difficulties" are common
here. I know that a thumb tack is a drawing pin, even though I don't call it
that. Maizie, frog and "doom painting" I'd never heard of, though I could
guess at the meaning of "doom painting".
>Things I found almost extraordinary: A discussion about "bilateral"
>schools. I thought I understood the public and comprehensive school
>divide, but "bilateral" is a concept that is a bit much.
So what *is* a bilateral school? A condominium?
>Things I missed when I was in Oxford: The Carfax. I'm so used to
>congested intersections that Oxford's seemed rather ordinary.
Did you notice that in Britain intersections are called junctions?
>Things that struck me: It seems that most of the aue regulars that are
>from the UK do not practice a religion. Yet, so many of the UK
>tourist attractions are churches, cathedrals, abbeys and other
>religious buildings. Each of the colleges at Oxford have a chapel.
>You seldom read a book about the UK without one of the characters
>being the Rector or the Vicar or the woman that does the flowers in
>the church. A British tourist could do the whole of the US and might
>visit only three religious buildings: The Old North Church in Boston,
>St Patrick's Cathedral in New York, and the Mormon Tabernacle. If you
>read a book set in America, you might read about a Rabbi or a Priest,
>but seldom anyone with a religious title. It's America, though, that
>is associated with religion.
Oxford University, before it was secularised, belonged to the Church of
England. It was started by the Church (before the church of England separated
from Rome). If the Bob Jones University in the US were secularised, you might
find similar hangovers after a few years.
>I find, after reading this book, that I am more confused about Oxford
>(the institution, not the city) than I was before. I knew that Oxford
>consists of several colleges, but I had no idea there were so many.
>Thirty-nine? "Oxford University" doesn't seem to exist other than
>some sort of blanket term that encompasses all of the colleges. I've
>visited Oxford, but only recall (what I would call) the major
>colleges. If someone mentioned Nuffield and Keble, for example, I
>wouldn't have associated them with Oxford.
>
>As an American, I think of a university as an entity of colleges, but
>that a student at a college is a student of the university. I'm not
>sure that's clear, so I'll rephrase. I attended Indiana University.
>I have a degree in business from Indiana University, so I suppose I
>attended the college of business. Yet, I don't even know the name of
>this college or that it even has a name. I took journalism courses at
>the School of Journalism at Indiana University. Often, we use
>"school" instead of "college" even though the school is one of the
>colleges that make up the university.
Not quite the same thing, I suspect. The "schools" you refer to correspond
roughly to what at universities in Britain (and other parts of the world) call
"faculties". "Schools" have recently been introduced at universities here,
where the facultuies of arts, theology and education have been lumped together
as the "school" of humanities. So a school is a kind of super-faculty.
In collegiate universities, like Oxford, Cambridge and Durham, the colleges
are independent self-governing institutions, which usually provide tuition to
their students, but the university conducts the examinations and awards the
degrees, so you get an MA (Oxon) or (Cantab) or a BA (Dunelm). At Durham, I am
an alumnus of both my college and of the university, and I get mail from both
soliciting my contributions, and the university provides its alumni with a
very good e-mail forwarding service.
Harking back to the religious bit for a moment, the principal of my college at
Durham (St Chad's) was the Revd John Fenton. He later became Dean of Christ
Church, Oxford. Christ Church is the college, but the college chapel is the
the cathedral, so he was Dean of the College and Dean of the Anglican Diocese
of Oxford.
>I consider myself a graduate of Indiana University. I gather that an
>Oxonian (right term?) Graduates (right term?) from Merton but says he
>was at Oxford. President Clinton was a Rhodes Scholar and it is
>written that he went to Oxford. But, it seems that he really attended
>University College. Most references to his experience, though, just
>say he attended Oxford. I wonder if UK newspapers use University
>College or Oxford when they write about Clinton.
When they refer to his degree (if he actually took one) it would be an Oxford
degree. The colleges don't award degrees, the university does. But each
college has its own culture. Colleges are rivals in sport, but combine to play
against other universities.
Perhaps you could compare it with state and federal governments in the USA.
Saying Clinton was at Oxford is like saying that he was from the USA. Saying
he was at University College is like saying he was from Arkansas. If a person
has an Oxford degree, it is analogous to holding a US passport. Does anyone
have an Arkansas passport?
>Another point raised in the book is the House. The author's son lives
>at home (or in the house that the parents have rented for the year)
>but is a member of Wilkinson House. I have always thought that the
>House is where the student lives and that day students wouldn't be in
>a House. Would all of the members of Wilkinson House attend the same
>college? ObAue construction: Heads of House. I'd normally say "the
>heads of the houses."
A house in a school (or college) is analogous to a college at a collegiate
university, except that it isn't usually self-governing. It provides a focus
of loyalties for intra-school sports teams etc.
In South Africa many schools with no boarders have "houses". When I started in
Grade I at Westville Government School I was asked which house I wanted to be
in, Carr or Cliff. Two years later we moved to another province, and I went to
Fairmount Government School, where the houses were Penguins, Pelicans, Eagles
and Cranes. Neither school had any boarders. I don't know if state schools at
Oxford do that, but it's quite possible. Perhaps John Dean would know.
>The UK reader of this is probably thinking that I'm thick as two short
>planks by now, but you have no idea how totally different this Oxford
>thing is to the American university concept. You guys attend Jesus
>College, but you row for Oxford! And I didn't even cover the seven
>Halls.
I can't speak for the Brits, but I certainly wouldn't say you were thick as
two short planks. Countries and cultures are different, and there is much that
the outsider does not understand (I certainly found that, going to study in
Durham). Universities and other academic institutions have their own culture
and ethos, and even when they are in the same country, they differ quite
markedly from each other.
>It was a fascinating book for me. I've read hundreds of British
>novels, but when you're immersed in a plot you just absorb the terms
>in context. This book is without a plot, and is just a recounting of
>an American's experiences living in Oxford. Kind of a "A Year in
>Provence" with rising damp and chilblains.
>
>And, finally, a quote from the book: "Cricket's no game. Somebody has
>to *move* before you can call something a game."
The author had obviously seen nothing like Jonty Rhodes's run-out of Inazmam
ul Haq in the SA-Paki match at the 1992 World Cup. Back then they were both 22
and a great deal more agile than they are now. Now Inzamum moves like the
Queen Mary II going up the Solent, while Jony Rhodes has retired -- doctors
said his body would fall apart if he carried on throwing it around like that.
>The book is "These Ruins Are Inhabited", Muriel Beadle, written in
>1958 but published in 1961.
Ah, back then phones may well have had a "Button B".
Diesel trains and jet passenger aircraft a novelty. No colour TV. Trolley
buses (well, not in Oxford, but in London and Reading). Nobody had heard of
the Beatles.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Mark Brader
> Perhaps you could compare it with state and federal governments in the USA.
> Saying Clinton was at Oxford is like saying that he was from the USA. Saying
> he was at University College is like saying he was from Arkansas. If a person
> has an Oxford degree, it is analogous to holding a US passport. Does anyone
> have an Arkansas passport?
No, but US citizens resident in Arkansas are *also* citizens of Arkansas,
and likewise for the other states. US constitution, 14th amendment --
the original unamended constitution already referred to states as
having citizens, but didn't explain or define the concept.
--
Mark Brader | I passed a sign that said "you are here",
Toronto | but I didn't entirely believe it.
m...@vex.net | --Michael Levine
Carmen L. Abruzzi
>
> I've made Melba toast in the
> oven of our electric stove at home. Just cut into thin slices and bake with a
> low herat rather than grill (AmE=broil).
>
Mike Page
Hayes) wrote:
>On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 02:00:18 GMT, Tony Cooper <tony_co...@earthlink.net>
>wrote:
>
>>The author rents a house in Oxford and is told by the house's owner to
>>clean the Rayburn's flue once a month and that the stove blacking is
>>in the cupboard. I've seen "stove blacking" before, but what is it
>>and how is it used? From the familiar phrase of "shoe black", I
>>assume it's polish, but I can't picture polishing a stove.
>
>Old-fashioned coal stoves, made of cast iron, were often polished with stove
>blacking.
With the fashion for cast iron fireplaces, its now widely
available. I bought some only a couple of months ago.
>
>>She is also told that the Rayburn is good for making Melba toast. We
>>purchase Melba toast in packages, but it never occurred to me that it
>>would be made at home. I thought Nabisco or someone was the maker of
>>Melba toast.
>
>Well yes.
...>Melba toast is as described in the dictionary, "very thin
crisp toast"; I
>don't know what a Rayburn is, though from the context I would guess it is a
>brand of coal stove, like an "Aga Cooker", but I've made Melba toast in the
>oven of our electric stove at home. Just cut into thin slices and bake with a
>low herat rather than grill (AmE=broil).
One of my duties as a commis waiter was to make melba toast. The
easiest way is to slice bread as for normal toast, toast both
sides under the salamander (or grill in domestic circumstances),
cut it in half in the plane of the toast by laying it on a board
and slicing horizontally, then toast the untoasted sides of both
halves. I've never tried it on a Rayburn or AGA. (Rayburns are
less snooty versions of AGAs and are now owned by the same
company.)
...>
>>Things I didn't know: Anyone that teaches at Oxford is a Don, short
>>for Dominus.
Only teachers at one of the universities in the city.
I thought a Don was a level of teacher. Hot milk is
>>sometimes provided with tea.
I've never experienced that.
That a British male, when dancing, leads
>>with his right foot (We lead with the left). "Oxbridge" means both
>>Oxford and Cambridge. I thought it was a term about Oxford. I'm
>>still not sure about "Oxan".
'Oxon', short for oxoniensis, shirley.
Do the Brits still refer to business as
>>"custom"? A company here is pleased to have your business.
Now only ironic, kind of implies that you are only after the
client's money. However NHS administrators have started
referring to 'customers' rather than 'patients'. Come to think of
it that rather illustrates my point.
... Maizie, frog and "doom painting" I'd never heard of, though I
could
>guess at the meaning of "doom painting".
I've never heard of them either.
>
>>Things I found almost extraordinary: A discussion about "bilateral"
>>schools. I thought I understood the public and comprehensive school
>>divide, but "bilateral" is a concept that is a bit much.
>
>So what *is* a bilateral school? A condominium?
I'm not sure, but at the time of writing the distinction would
have been between 'grammar' and 'secondary modern' schools. You
had to pass the 'eleven plus' to get into a grammar school.
...>>Things that struck me: It seems that most of the aue
regulars that are
>>from the UK do not practice a religion. Yet, so many of the UK
>>tourist attractions are churches, cathedrals, abbeys and other
>>religious buildings. Each of the colleges at Oxford have a chapel.
>>You seldom read a book about the UK without one of the characters
>>being the Rector or the Vicar or the woman that does the flowers in
>>the church. A British tourist could do the whole of the US and might
>>visit only three religious buildings: The Old North Church in Boston,
>>St Patrick's Cathedral in New York, and the Mormon Tabernacle. If you
>>read a book set in America, you might read about a Rabbi or a Priest,
>>but seldom anyone with a religious title. It's America, though, that
>>is associated with religion.
Watch out for the series 'Cathedral' when it makes over to
America, one of the best things on UK TV for ages.
...>>As an American, I think of a university as an entity of
colleges, but
>>that a student at a college is a student of the university. I'm not
>>sure that's clear, so I'll rephrase. I attended Indiana University.
>>I have a degree in business from Indiana University, so I suppose I
>>attended the college of business. Yet, I don't even know the name of
>>this college or that it even has a name. I took journalism courses at
>>the School of Journalism at Indiana University. Often, we use
>>"school" instead of "college" even though the school is one of the
>>colleges that make up the university.
>
>Not quite the same thing, I suspect. The "schools" you refer to correspond
>roughly to what at universities in Britain (and other parts of the world) call
>"faculties". "Schools" have recently been introduced at universities here,
>where the facultuies of arts, theology and education have been lumped together
>as the "school" of humanities. So a school is a kind of super-faculty.
Not everywhere, sometimes schools are big departments within
faculties, sometimes sub-departments.
>
>In collegiate universities, like Oxford, Cambridge and Durham, the colleges
>are independent self-governing institutions, which usually provide tuition to
>their students, but the university conducts the examinations and awards the
>degrees,
...
Colleges originated as residential establishments and many
students think of them mainly in that way. The tuition they
organise is a bit of an anachronism and would have difficulty in
passing modern quality standards if the QAA were brave enough to
confront the might of Oxbridge, IMHO.
...>
...
Mike Page
'The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be
preferred to those who think they've found it.'
(Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment, p195)
John Holmes
>
> The author rents a house in Oxford and is told by the house's owner to
> clean the Rayburn's flue once a month and that the stove blacking is
> in the cupboard. I've seen "stove blacking" before, but what is it
> and how is it used? From the familiar phrase of "shoe black", I
> assume it's polish, but I can't picture polishing a stove.
I've used the same stuff on cast-iron enclosed log fires. You apply it
in the form of a thin paste or thick paint when the stove is cool. The
first time it heats up, it will smoke and pong a bit, but then the
coating becomes burnt on and prevents the iron from rusting.
--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus those of alt.usage.english
at tpg dot com dot au
J. J. Lodder
> The author rents a house in Oxford and is told by the house's owner to
> clean the Rayburn's flue once a month and that the stove blacking is
> in the cupboard. I've seen "stove blacking" before, but what is it
> and how is it used? From the familiar phrase of "shoe black", I
> assume it's polish, but I can't picture polishing a stove.
Perhaps you know only emanelled stoves?
They don't need any.
Blacking is used on bare iron,
for rust prevention and appearance,
JaN
Matti Lamprhey
>
> Things I didn't know: [...] Hot milk is sometimes provided with tea.
As you know, tea doesn't always mean tea. Can you provide more context?
Matti
Mike Page
(Mike Page) wrote:
>
>With the fashion for cast iron fireplaces, its now widely
>available. I bought some only a couple of months ago.
Oy, I know, I know.
Mike Page
(Who just got fed up with the previous sig.)
Steve Hayes
>Steve Hayes writes:
>> Perhaps you could compare it with state and federal governments in the USA.
>> Saying Clinton was at Oxford is like saying that he was from the USA. Saying
>> he was at University College is like saying he was from Arkansas. If a person
>> has an Oxford degree, it is analogous to holding a US passport. Does anyone
>> have an Arkansas passport?
>
>No, but US citizens resident in Arkansas are *also* citizens of Arkansas,
>and likewise for the other states. US constitution, 14th amendment --
>the original unamended constitution already referred to states as
>having citizens, but didn't explain or define the concept.
That doesn't affect the analogy. Members of collegiate universities are also
members of their colleges.
John Dean
Indeed not. My main reply to Tony's post is in aeu where I point out
that the two colleges plus Magdalen Bridge and Magdalen Road in Oxford
are pronounced "maudlin". But otherwise you say "Mag-da-lenn" in
Oxford - eg for Magdalen Street, Magdalen Street East and St Mary
Magdalen Church and, of course, for the Magdalene herself.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Mike Lyle
Ch.Ch.
Mike.
Areff
> Custom as in customer? Do you not speak of customers in the USA?
Yes, but we haven't spoken of "custom" in the sense of "business,
patronage by customers" in, I'm guessing, an hundred years or more, if we
ever actually did.
> So what *is* a bilateral school? A condominium?
No. A condominium is one of those things they have a lot of down where
Coop is.
>>Things I missed when I was in Oxford: The Carfax. I'm so used to
>>congested intersections that Oxford's seemed rather ordinary.
>
> Did you notice that in Britain intersections are called junctions?
Sometimes they are in the US too, but "intersection" is the usual term
today for the junction of two ordinary streets. In at least some states
there's a standard "JCT" sign that indicates the intersecting of two
numbered highway routes (or, more precisely, the intersection of the route
the driver is currently on with another one, and sometimes the
intersection is more constructive [i.e., it may indicate a merging of two
numbered routes]).
"Junction" to me suggests the intersection of streets that are
sufficiently important. That might be because the intersection of two
important streets in Brooklyn (Fourth Largest City in America), Flatbush
and Nostrand Avenues, was traditionally called "The Junction".
>>Things that struck me: It seems that most of the aue regulars that are
>>from the UK do not practice a religion. Yet, so many of the UK
>>tourist attractions are churches, cathedrals, abbeys and other
>>religious buildings. Each of the colleges at Oxford have a chapel.
>>You seldom read a book about the UK without one of the characters
>>being the Rector or the Vicar or the woman that does the flowers in
>>the church. A British tourist could do the whole of the US and might
>>visit only three religious buildings: The Old North Church in Boston,
>>St Patrick's Cathedral in New York, and the Mormon Tabernacle. If you
>>read a book set in America, you might read about a Rabbi or a Priest,
>>but seldom anyone with a religious title. It's America, though, that
>>is associated with religion.
>
> Oxford University, before it was secularised, belonged to the Church of
> England. It was started by the Church (before the church of England separated
> from Rome). If the Bob Jones University in the US were secularised, you might
> find similar hangovers after a few years.
I don't think that's what Coop is getting at. When Coop's right he's
right. British people love to go on about how atheistic they are, but
they're the first ones to talk about "vicars" -- when's the last time you
heard an American use the word "vicar"? If there's one term that really
defines British culture for me, it's "vicar". Surely you, as a SAfrE
person who's thought a lot (or "alot" as you say down there) about both
British culture and religion, you must agree with me. So yeah, Coop's
right to pick up on this irony, an irony that, judging from what I read
in AUE, is one that British people themselves are unaware of. Vicars,
Steve. Vicars. Say it, Steve. "Vicars."
>>As an American, I think of a university as an entity of colleges, but
>>that a student at a college is a student of the university. I'm not
>>sure that's clear, so I'll rephrase. I attended Indiana University.
>>I have a degree in business from Indiana University, so I suppose I
>>attended the college of business. Yet, I don't even know the name of
>>this college or that it even has a name. I took journalism courses at
>>the School of Journalism at Indiana University. Often, we use
>>"school" instead of "college" even though the school is one of the
>>colleges that make up the university.
>
> Not quite the same thing, I suspect. The "schools" you refer to correspond
> roughly to what at universities in Britain (and other parts of the world) call
> "faculties". "Schools" have recently been introduced at universities here,
> where the facultuies of arts, theology and education have been lumped together
> as the "school" of humanities. So a school is a kind of super-faculty.
Right. In this case, Coop is not right.
> In collegiate universities, like Oxford, Cambridge and Durham, the colleges
> are independent self-governing institutions, which usually provide tuition to
> their students, but the university conducts the examinations and awards the
> degrees, so you get an MA (Oxon) or (Cantab) or a BA (Dunelm). At Durham, I am
> an alumnus of both my college and of the university, and I get mail from both
> soliciting my contributions, and the university provides its alumni with a
> very good e-mail forwarding service.
I don't know of any American university that has a structure like that of
Oxford or Cambridge. There are some universities that have relatively
loose affiliations with particular schools that might be seen to be part
of the university (I'm thinking of the relationship between the Union
Theological Seminary and Columbia University, but I don't really
completely understand what it is).
> I can't speak for the Brits, but I certainly wouldn't say you were thick as
> two short planks. Countries and cultures are different, and there is much that
> the outsider does not understand (I certainly found that, going to study in
> Durham). Universities and other academic institutions have their own culture
> and ethos, and even when they are in the same country, they differ quite
> markedly from each other.
You are correct, sir. Coop's Hiberno-Britophilicism is getting the best
of him.
--
Steny '08!
Mike Lyle
> In article <ctcg82$111$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>, John Dean at
> john...@frag.lineone.net hath writ:
>> Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> I erred when I posted this and put it in aeu instead of aue.
Then I
>>> posted it here. I was told in aeu that Cambridge has a Magedalen
>>> (add an "e"), but it is also pronounced "maudlin". What's my
>>> fall-back?
>>>
>> Spelling it correctly - Magdalene
>
> So it's "Mary Maudlin" over there then?
Unfortunately, not. Why make it easy, FGS? The colleges were founded
under Latin names when few people could read even English. The saint
was a popular one in England, and the derived Christian name
"Madeline", from French, often became "Maudlin". (Chaucer's shipman
had a bark called "The Maudelayne".) I think the
spelling-pronunciation must be the product of more general literacy
and the translation of the Bible into English. I also think -au- was
quite often a rendering of a sound more like our -ah.
Even the heroically bells-and-smells (is it still like that?)church
in Oxford is pronounced "Mary Magdalen" as spelt, or just "Mary Mag".
Mike.
Mike Lyle
> Tony Cooper wrote [...]
>> I've seen "stove blacking" before, but what is
>> it and how is it used? From the familiar phrase of "shoe black",
I
>> assume it's polish, but I can't picture polishing a stove.
>
> I think it comes in a tube, like toothpaste. Unlike most
toothpastes,
> it's black. You use a cloth to rub it into cast iron until it
gleams.
> Aesthetics aside, it prevents corrosion.
>
> I've been sitting here trying to remember the main brand name, but
> with no success.
>
Wasn't it something like "Zebrite"? I feel I remember an
orange-striped tube, if that isn't the old Australian Ipana
toothpaste. I tried to buy some last year, but the ironmonger said he
didn't get it any more. In literature, it's represented by such
expressions as "a black-leaded stove", as it was a suspension of
powdered graphite.
Mike.
Wood Avens
wrote:
Christ Church College. (Haven't you read Gaudy Night?)
--
Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
Mike Lyle
I suspect context may reveal only poor research by the author. Being
given hot milk with tea is one of the things British writers used to
say happened when one went abroad: in Br it's about as likely as
being offered chocolate sauce with fish and chips. (Mind you, my
first wife's table was once victim of a Portuguese college servant's
confusion between gravy and chocolate sauce.)
Mike.
Wood Avens
<nos...@brookview.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Tony Cooper wrote (snippage for space abounds hereon):
>
>>The author rents a house in Oxford and is told by the house's owner to
>>clean the Rayburn's flue once a month and that the stove blacking is
>>in the cupboard. I've seen "stove blacking" before, but what is it
>>and how is it used? From the familiar phrase of "shoe black", I
>>assume it's polish, but I can't picture polishing a stove.
>
>I think it comes in a tube, like toothpaste. Unlike most toothpastes,
>it's black. You use a cloth to rub it into cast iron until it gleams.
>Aesthetics aside, it prevents corrosion.
>
>I've been sitting here trying to remember the main brand name, but
>with no success.
Zebrite.
At least, I think so, without going downstairs to look. It's also
used to mix into the putty used in stained glass windows, which is why
I have some.
Tony Cooper
I don't think I need to look up the actual context to explain it. She
was talking about providing milk for the tea (to put in the tea) and
the milk was heated. It makes perfect sense to me. Cold milk cools
the tea, and hot milk doesn't. I've just never heard of anyone going
to the trouble.
If I have to look up other references, I'll try to find the line where
this was mentioned.
Wood Avens
>On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 06:46:45 GMT, haye...@hotmail.com (Steve
>Hayes) wrote:
>>Maizie, frog and "doom painting" I'd never heard of
>
>I've never heard of them either.
Frog is the current term for the spiky plastic thing like a tiny
upturned table, on which one impales the chunk of Oasis or floral foam
into which one sticks one's flowers (I think we've addressed this
before). Floral foam wasn't around when this book was written,
however, so I guess it may mean one of the old hemi-spherical glass
thingies with holes in it, which is put at the bottom of the
flower-vase.
I've never heard either of these called a Maizie, though, and I'm now
wondering whether it's a) a variant spelling of Maisie*, and therefore
simply a female name for a useful thing, as in Lazy Susan, or b) a
reference to some now-vanished object with either holes or spikes,
made of or looking like some part of the maize plant. Neither Google
nor Webster helps. I may be reduced to asking the more elderly among
my flower-arranging acquaintances.
*'Maizie' seems to be the spelling of a current girl's name in UsE,
but in BrE it belongs to a vanished era, and I've never seen it other
than with an s.
Matti Lamprhey
Surely you realize that "tea" can mean the meal rather than the
beverage? That's why the context is important.
Matti
Joe Fineman
> I don't think that's what Coop is getting at. When Coop's right
> he's right. British people love to go on about how atheistic they
> are, but they're the first ones to talk about "vicars" -- when's the
> last time you heard an American use the word "vicar"? If there's
> one term that really defines British culture for me, it's "vicar".
> Surely you, as a SAfrE person who's thought a lot (or "alot" as you
> say down there) about both British culture and religion, you must
> agree with me. So yeah, Coop's right to pick up on this irony, an
> irony that, judging from what I read in AUE, is one that British
> people themselves are unaware of. Vicars, Steve. Vicars. Say it,
> Steve. "Vicars."
Perhaps I was corrupted by a year's residence in Britain, but for me a
good deal of bawdry would be unavailable without vicars:
Sue said, with a snicker,
"The vicar was quicker,"
Six convicted vicars,
Five choir boys,
etc., etc.
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net
||: Eager to please, and a nuisance. Easy to please, and a :||
||: comfort. :||
Donna Richoux
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 02:51:43 +0000, John Hatpin
> <nos...@brookview.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Tony Cooper wrote (snippage for space abounds hereon):
> >
> >>The author rents a house in Oxford and is told by the house's owner to
> >>clean the Rayburn's flue once a month and that the stove blacking is
> >>in the cupboard. I've seen "stove blacking" before, but what is it
> >>and how is it used? From the familiar phrase of "shoe black", I
> >>assume it's polish, but I can't picture polishing a stove.
> >
> >I think it comes in a tube, like toothpaste. Unlike most toothpastes,
> >it's black. You use a cloth to rub it into cast iron until it gleams.
> >Aesthetics aside, it prevents corrosion.
> >
> >I've been sitting here trying to remember the main brand name, but
> >with no success.
>
> Zebrite.
Rhymes with Yosemite?
Donna Richoux
However, being offered hot milk with *coffee* has happened to me several
times in Dutch homes, and never back in the US. I feel guilty, it's such
a bother for the host/ess to beat it with a whisk in a saucepan. I
suppose I'm not supposed to worry.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Jacqui
>>Things I wonder about: Do pay phones in England still have the "B"
>>button?
>
> No, not for a long time. I was born in 1960, and can only just
> remember them. And even that might be a false memory.
It probably depends where you lived. I remember a Button B box from
1980 but then I lived in a village where the very newest postbox said G
not E. I have no idea if the Button B was still operable, but I do
remember that we Brownies were instructed to always carry a tuppence
for the phone.
Jac
Harvey Van Sickle
-snip-
> "Oxbridge" means both Oxford and Cambridge. I thought it was a
> term about Oxford. I'm still not sure about "Oxan".
"Oxon" -- the abbreviation (from Latin) of the city/county name.
-snip-
> Things that struck me: It seems that most of the aue regulars that
> are from the UK do not practice a religion. Yet, so many of the
> UK tourist attractions are churches, cathedrals, abbeys and other
> religious buildings. Each of the colleges at Oxford have a
> chapel. You seldom read a book about the UK without one of the
> characters being the Rector or the Vicar or the woman that does
> the flowers in the church. A British tourist could do the whole
> of the US and might visit only three religious buildings: The Old
> North Church in Boston, St Patrick's Cathedral in New York, and
> the Mormon Tabernacle. If you read a book set in America, you
> might read about a Rabbi or a Priest, but seldom anyone with a
> religious title. It's America, though, that is associated with
> religion.
As a culture the UK has generally abandoned active worship and
museumised the temples; that's why the US practice of religious
worship and proclaiming one's belief creeps many of us out.
--
Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 22 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van)
Areff
> I also think -au- was quite often a rendering of a sound more like our
> -ah.
Sparky could have told us that.
--
Steny '08!
Tony Cooper
<ma...@official-totally-reversed.com> wrote:
Matti, I'm fully aware of the meanings of "tea". Trust me on this.
She was referring to a jug of hot milk to pour in tea. I'll skim the
book and try to find it again, but give me a little credit here.
Wood Avens
wrote:
>Wood Avens <wood...@askjennison.com> wrote:
>> Zebrite.
>
>Rhymes with Yosemite?
Not quite. Or rather, not not quite.
Wood Avens
>British people love to go on about how atheistic they are, but
>they're the first ones to talk about "vicars" -- when's the last time you
>heard an American use the word "vicar"? If there's one term that really
>defines British culture for me, it's "vicar".
The key wrd here is "culture". The Church of England, with its
inherited historic buildings, its vicars and its elderly female
flower-arrangers, is 90% a historical-cultural creature to most Brits,
and only 10% a religious one. In the UK it's perfectly possible to be
an atheist/agnostic/Pagan/Buddhist/Bahai etc and still appreciate and
celebrate the architectural, musical and cultural heritage of which
the C of E is the principal current custodian.
One of the advantages of Establishment is that, paradoxically, it
separates the Church from religion.
Matti Lamprhey
Tony, I'd trust you on most things, but NOT when it comes to "tea".
There is NO WAY that anyone in Britain would EVER put hot milk into a
cup of tea. It's simply ludicrous.
Matti
the Omrud
When I worked in a faded Edwardian hotel as a porter and general dogs
body, we were taught to heat the milk delivered with coffee by
steaming it. There was a spout from which issued steam, which you
put into the jug of milk to heat it. But only cold milk was
delivered with tea.
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the
Laura F. Spira
Muriel Beadle was writing about Oxford in the 1950s when there were
still some wildly eccentric people about who might just have done this.
My mother tells of lunch with the Misses Spooner which was a very
bizarre occasion where the menu included spaghetti, without any sauce,
and white blancmange.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
the Omrud
> Things that struck me: It seems that most of the aue regulars that are
> from the UK do not practice a religion. Yet, so many of the UK
> tourist attractions are churches, cathedrals, abbeys and other
> religious buildings. Each of the colleges at Oxford have a chapel.
> You seldom read a book about the UK without one of the characters
> being the Rector or the Vicar or the woman that does the flowers in
> the church.
You're not reading the same books as me. All that stuff is over 50
years old, and quite possibly related to the upper classes. You are
keen on some UK TV. How many references to religion have you seen in
Coupling, My Family, Men Behaving Badly or Cold Feet? Or, indeed, in
Sliding Doors, Bridget Jones or any other "realistic" film or TV
programme set in the UK? If there are any reference I would expect
them to be cultural, e.g. people wanting to get married in church
because it's prettier.
> A British tourist could do the whole of the US and might
> visit only three religious buildings: The Old North Church in Boston,
> St Patrick's Cathedral in New York, and the Mormon Tabernacle.
Damn. Missed one. I'll have to go around again.
> If you
> read a book set in America, you might read about a Rabbi or a Priest,
> but seldom anyone with a religious title. It's America, though, that
> is associated with religion.
Count the congregations. The vast majority of UK churches are
running empty. Even the great cathedrals have few regular
worshipers, even if they have thousands of visitors. Country
churches have to share vicars - one vicar to three or four parishes.
Tourist attractions is what they are.
Mike Lyle
You can trust Tony to report what he read in a book, shirley? He it
was who drew the comparison with _A Year in Provence_: you wouldn't
believe what you read in that, would you?
As I say, it's like chocolate sauce and fish and chips: if anybody
did it, they'd clearly be eccentric or a bit potty. (The late Lord
Redesdale was served, when my old school chaplain went to tea, with
cold coffee in what seemed to be a chamber-pot. The British Isles are
expert at the production of pottiness.) I think it's a case of
authorial over-egging, or else some kind of misunderstanding on the
author's part -- or the landlady's: I can imagine devious means by
which even a sane landlady or scout might have got the impression
that this was the kind of thing Americans liked.
Mike.
Mike Lyle
[...]> however, so I guess it may mean one of the old hemi-spherical
glass
> thingies with holes in it, which is put at the bottom of the
> flower-vase.
>
> I've never heard either of these called a Maizie, though, and I'm
now
> wondering whether it's a) a variant spelling of Maisie*, and
therefore
I wonder if it was a brand-name?
Mike.
J. J. Lodder
It used to be common,
for pouring in cold milk cools the coffee to much.
It went out of fashion,
with concentrated coffee milk becoming readily available.
(And drinking black coffee became fashionable)
The microwave has caused some revival though,
Jan
PS Drinking tea with milk -was- common the Netherlands,
long ago. (Before WW II, I guess)
Bob Cunningham
<la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> said:
> Matti Lamprhey wrote:
[...]
> > Tony, I'd trust you on most things, but NOT when it comes to "tea".
> > There is NO WAY that anyone in Britain would EVER put hot milk into a
> > cup of tea. It's simply ludicrous.
> Muriel Beadle was writing about Oxford in the 1950s when there were
> still some wildly eccentric people about who might just have done this.
> My mother tells of lunch with the Misses Spooner which was a very
> bizarre occasion where the menu included spaghetti, without any sauce,
> and white blancmange.
In Australia during World War II if you ordered a cup of
coffee, the server would ask "White or black?" If you said
"white" it was about half milk. Is that still the way?
Matti Lamprhey
But he may have misinterpreted what he read. Look at the brief
description which is still at the top of this -- that description on its
own could refer to the meal, but it would have been quite understandable
for Tony to have assumed it was referring to the drink. A bit more of
the context would sort this out.
>
> As I say, it's like chocolate sauce and fish and chips: if anybody
> did it, they'd clearly be eccentric or a bit potty. (The late Lord
> Redesdale was served, when my old school chaplain went to tea, with
> cold coffee in what seemed to be a chamber-pot. The British Isles are
> expert at the production of pottiness.) I think it's a case of
> authorial over-egging, or else some kind of misunderstanding on the
> author's part -- or the landlady's: I can imagine devious means by
> which even a sane landlady or scout might have got the impression
> that this was the kind of thing Americans liked.
Absolutely. We need to get to the bottom of this one before cherished
cultural norms are swept away.
Matti
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>>I expected problems with Balliol, and quickly mumbled through it, but
>>I didn't expect problems with Magdalen.
>
>I knew about Magdalen, but what about Balliol?
Looking at the word, I would pronounce it "Bally-oll" or "Bally-ole".
I'm quite sure, though, that the English pronounce it "sear-en-cester"
or something completely different from what I would expect. Sometimes
I really think that English pronunciation of towns and locations is
part of the national defense program. Invading forces, given oral
instructions, would never associate the sound of the word with the
sight of the word on a map.
>Custom as in customer? Do you not speak of customers in the USA?
No, "custom" as in "Thank you for your custom." We tell customers
"Thank you for your business."
>So what *is* a bilateral school? A condominium?
Explained in a different post.
Tony Cooper
<mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Matti Lamprhey wrote:
>> "Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote...
>>>
>>> Things I didn't know: [...] Hot milk is sometimes provided with
>tea.
>>
>> As you know, tea doesn't always mean tea. Can you provide more
>> context?
>
>I suspect context may reveal only poor research by the author.
Since this was just a diary of experiences in England, I wouldn't
criticize her for poor research. If it happened in her experience,
then she's on reasonable ground to assume that it's common unless
she's writing a text book or a serious academic paper.
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>Tony Cooper typed thusly:
>
>> Things that struck me: It seems that most of the aue regulars that are
>> from the UK do not practice a religion. Yet, so many of the UK
>> tourist attractions are churches, cathedrals, abbeys and other
>> religious buildings. Each of the colleges at Oxford have a chapel.
>> You seldom read a book about the UK without one of the characters
>> being the Rector or the Vicar or the woman that does the flowers in
>> the church.
>
>You're not reading the same books as me. All that stuff is over 50
>years old, and quite possibly related to the upper classes.
I'm sure I'm not. My usual fare in British writing is the classic
mystery. I like them because they deal straight with the plot and
don't feel obligated - or is it obliged? - to spice up the pages with
intimate scenes.
I do read more modern writers like P.D. James, but even there
(although I can't cite an example) it would not be uncommon for
someone to be at a church fete or to be a church warden.
> You are
>keen on some UK TV. How many references to religion have you seen in
>Coupling,
none
>My Family, Men Behaving Badly or Cold Feet?
Haven't seen these. How about Vicar of Dilby? How about the Vicar in
"Keeping Up Appearances"? Remember, what we get here is quite a bit
behind what you may see there.
>> If you
>> read a book set in America, you might read about a Rabbi or a Priest,
>> but seldom anyone with a religious title. It's America, though, that
>> is associated with religion.
>
>Count the congregations. The vast majority of UK churches are
>running empty. Even the great cathedrals have few regular
>worshipers, even if they have thousands of visitors. Country
>churches have to share vicars - one vicar to three or four parishes.
>Tourist attractions is what they are.
You know this, but it's not obvious to the casual observer. As a
tourist, did you notice how full our churches are or aren't?
Steve Hayes
>Steve Hayes wrote:
>> Custom as in customer? Do you not speak of customers in the USA?
>
>Yes, but we haven't spoken of "custom" in the sense of "business,
>patronage by customers" in, I'm guessing, an hundred years or more, if we
>ever actually did.
>
>> So what *is* a bilateral school? A condominium?
>
>No. A condominium is one of those things they have a lot of down where
>Coop is.
I was thinking of the other kind, like the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan. We have a
shopping centre cum parking garage cum conference centre that was developed
partly by the city council and partly by private enterprise. It has the
opublic library, and a municipal conference centre, but also lots of shops and
offices. So I wondered if a bilateral school was run partly by the government
body responsible for education, and partly by a priviate or civili society
body.
>>>Things I missed when I was in Oxford: The Carfax. I'm so used to
>>>congested intersections that Oxford's seemed rather ordinary.
>>
>> Did you notice that in Britain intersections are called junctions?
>
>Sometimes they are in the US too, but "intersection" is the usual term
>today for the junction of two ordinary streets. In at least some states
>there's a standard "JCT" sign that indicates the intersecting of two
>numbered highway routes (or, more precisely, the intersection of the route
>the driver is currently on with another one, and sometimes the
>intersection is more constructive [i.e., it may indicate a merging of two
>numbered routes]).
>
>"Junction" to me suggests the intersection of streets that are
>sufficiently important. That might be because the intersection of two
>important streets in Brooklyn (Fourth Largest City in America), Flatbush
>and Nostrand Avenues, was traditionally called "The Junction".
Here we call them intersections pretty consistently, and I noticed that in
Britain they were called (AmE=named) junctions.
>
>>>Things that struck me: It seems that most of the aue regulars that are
>>>from the UK do not practice a religion. Yet, so many of the UK
>>>tourist attractions are churches, cathedrals, abbeys and other
>>>religious buildings. Each of the colleges at Oxford have a chapel.
>>>You seldom read a book about the UK without one of the characters
>>>being the Rector or the Vicar or the woman that does the flowers in
>>>the church. A British tourist could do the whole of the US and might
>>>visit only three religious buildings: The Old North Church in Boston,
>>>St Patrick's Cathedral in New York, and the Mormon Tabernacle. If you
>>>read a book set in America, you might read about a Rabbi or a Priest,
>>>but seldom anyone with a religious title. It's America, though, that
>>>is associated with religion.
>>
>> Oxford University, before it was secularised, belonged to the Church of
>> England. It was started by the Church (before the church of England separated
>> from Rome). If the Bob Jones University in the US were secularised, you might
>> find similar hangovers after a few years.
>
>I don't think that's what Coop is getting at. When Coop's right he's
>right. British people love to go on about how atheistic they are, but
>they're the first ones to talk about "vicars" -- when's the last time you
>heard an American use the word "vicar"? If there's one term that really
>defines British culture for me, it's "vicar". Surely you, as a SAfrE
>person who's thought a lot (or "alot" as you say down there) about both
>British culture and religion, you must agree with me. So yeah, Coop's
>right to pick up on this irony, an irony that, judging from what I read
>in AUE, is one that British people themselves are unaware of. Vicars,
>Steve. Vicars. Say it, Steve. "Vicars."
Not to mentions Archdeacons, Prebendaries, Perpetual curates, Canons
Residentiary, Honorary and Emeritus, surrogates, ordinaries, clerks in holy
orders, lay clerks, parish clerks, vergers, sextons, beadles.
Isn't America boring with its reverends and pastors?
>>>As an American, I think of a university as an entity of colleges, but
>>>that a student at a college is a student of the university. I'm not
>>>sure that's clear, so I'll rephrase. I attended Indiana University.
>>>I have a degree in business from Indiana University, so I suppose I
>>>attended the college of business. Yet, I don't even know the name of
>>>this college or that it even has a name. I took journalism courses at
>>>the School of Journalism at Indiana University. Often, we use
>>>"school" instead of "college" even though the school is one of the
>>>colleges that make up the university.
>>
>> Not quite the same thing, I suspect. The "schools" you refer to correspond
>> roughly to what at universities in Britain (and other parts of the world) call
>> "faculties". "Schools" have recently been introduced at universities here,
>> where the facultuies of arts, theology and education have been lumped together
>> as the "school" of humanities. So a school is a kind of super-faculty.
>
>Right. In this case, Coop is not right.
>
>> In collegiate universities, like Oxford, Cambridge and Durham, the colleges
>> are independent self-governing institutions, which usually provide tuition to
>> their students, but the university conducts the examinations and awards the
>> degrees, so you get an MA (Oxon) or (Cantab) or a BA (Dunelm). At Durham, I am
>> an alumnus of both my college and of the university, and I get mail from both
>> soliciting my contributions, and the university provides its alumni with a
>> very good e-mail forwarding service.
>
>I don't know of any American university that has a structure like that of
>Oxford or Cambridge. There are some universities that have relatively
>loose affiliations with particular schools that might be seen to be part
>of the university (I'm thinking of the relationship between the Union
>Theological Seminary and Columbia University, but I don't really
>completely understand what it is).
We have things like that too, but I only know of ones in theology faculties
(or schools, as they are now called). They are called clusters, but it's not
quite ther same thing as the colleges in a collegiate university in England.
The university and non university institutions share tution and staff, but not
all the students in the non-university colleges are studying for university
degrees, and the non-university "colleges" don't form part of the university.
I call them "colleges", but one is a seminary, another is a scholasticate and
another is something else.
We also used to have something similar with the University of South Africa. It
was the first university in the country, and was orginally the University of
the Cape of Good Hope. It ran examinations and awarded degrees bit offered no
tuition. Tution was offered by "University Colleges", but eventually the
colleges grew jup and gotr charters and became universities in their own
right, awarding degrees. When the last of these fledgelings fled the nest, the
University of South Africa (Unisa) had nothing to do, so it began offering
tuition, but by distance educagtion, which it still does, and is nowe the
largest such institution in the Southern Hemisphere. Then when the government
kicked black students out of the other universities, and established tribal
colleges, Unisa took them under its wing as it had before, and they became
independent degree-granting bodies now known as "historically disadvantaged
institutions".
None of that fits the Oxbridge/Durham scenario exactly, though there are a few
similarities.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Steve Hayes
wrote:
And while you're at it, skim the skin off the milk.
It is a barbarous custom that I never encountered in Britain, and came acros
only during my brief career as a civil servant, to wit, a water works
attendant.
Laura F. Spira
As I don't drink coffee, I'm not aware of current norms in this regard.
I remember that, when I was quite young, my father when offered this
choice would reply "Do you have any of the brown sort?", much to my
embarrassment.
Tony Cooper
<ma...@official-totally-reversed.com> wrote:
OK, Matti, because it's you I went back and skimmed the book until I
found the reference on page 48. (In the Swan Hotel in Bedford) "At
breakfast we asked for two coffees and one milk. The milk came in a
pitcher boiling hot, with skin on the top..."
The 3 x 5 card that I used as a bookmark and for notes just says "Hot
milk/tea?" I'm still assuming that the hot milk was to pour in the
coffee since there's no mention of a glass (just jug) and it came with
the coffee order.
I think it's as odd to provide hot milk with coffee as it is with hot
tea, but perhaps such things are viewed differently in England.
Either use would serve to keep the beverage hotter.
I assume that your dander is back at 98.6 now that "tea" has been
corrected to "coffee", but do you find it ludicrous to put hot milk in
coffee but not tea at breakfast?
I'm aware of the Spanish-style coffees with milk added, but I think
that rather misses the point here. Perhaps not. If milk is added to
tea (and surely you agree some do do that), then what is ludicrous
about the temperature of the milk?
But, not to try to conceal my error, it was coffee and not tea. Not
tea as in afternoon tea, but tea as in beverage.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> You're not reading the same books as me. All that stuff is over 50
> years old, and quite possibly related to the upper classes. You are
> keen on some UK TV. How many references to religion have you seen in
> Coupling,
Well, there's the funeral in season one ("Sex, Death, and Nudity").
Also
"When God made the arse, he didn't say, 'Hey, it's just your basic
hinge, let's knock off early.' He said, 'Behold ye angels, I have
created the arse. Throughout the ages to come, men and women shall
grab hold of these, and shout my name.'"
That's from the same episode ("Faithless") in which Jane gets involved
with her station's religious show host, who shows up again a few times
over season 3. The scene with Jane explaining things to his Christian
discussion group is hilarious.
Andrew: What do you feel about the crisis of faith?
Jane: Sounds fantastic.
Andrew: Sometimes I find, when my prayers seem to go unanswered, and
it's so very hard to find God's love in my life, that it's
difficult to keep believing that God is still a real force
in the world, watching over us. I find doubt so often in my
heart.
Jane: You know...[to James] Perhaps I can help here.
James: Sure. Go ahead. That's what this is all about.
Jane: What's your name?
Andrew: Andrew.
Jane: Andrew. Lovely. Well, Andrew, there is something I
probably had better explain. God is just a made-up
person. Now you can't expect him to be answering your
prayers if he's not real, can you? That's a bit like
writing to the characters of a soap opera and expecting a
reply, Mr. Silly Sausage.
James: Uh, Jane?
Jane: Yes, James
James: Here we are rather of the opinion that God is, in fact, real.
Jane: No!
James: Yes
Jane: He's not, is he?
Man: You don't believe in God?
Jane: Well, I suppose I never found him very...realistic.
James: Well, here we rather hold to the idea of one true loving
God, I'm afraid.
Jane: Oh, no, that can't be right.
James: I'm sorry?
Jane: You see, they've got different gods in different countries.
You should've checked that.
James: Well, obviously, there are other faiths.
Jane: What if... they're like MPs, and there's different gods for
different areas, and they all report to a sort of "head
god", like...Thor! or somebody.
James: Thor.
Jane: Thor. The thunder god. The one with the hammer. We did
him at school. He was totally my favorite. You known, I'm
not that easy, but show me a muscular blond who can control
the weather and this girl's on all fours.
James: Okay. Let's move on, shall we. Has anyone else got
something they want to discuss?
Woman: Perhaps we should go back to what we were discussing last
week.
James: Ah, yes, we had a very lively debate last week, didn't we?
Jane: Really? What about.
Woman: Sex before marriage.
Jane: Ah! Now you're talking my language.
Woman: We're against it.
Jane: I'm sorry?
Woman: A number of us feel that premarital sex is a very bad thing.
Jane: Well, you're so wrong! Shagging's brilliant! Take it when
you can get it is what I say!
Later, after Jane finds out that James doesn't believe in premarital
sex and they're cleaning up
Jane: So...you and God, then.
James: Me and God.
Jane: I don't mean to put you on the spot, but...What's he got
that I haven't?
James: He...created the universe, the world we live in, the sun,
the sea, the skies, the stars,...and you. Personally, I
think his work's improving.
Jane: And this..."premarital" thing...
James: Sorry. I happen to want to remain a virgin until my wedding
night.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Just sit right back
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | and you'll hear a tale,
Palo Alto, CA 94304 | a tale of the Stanford red
|That started when a little boy
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | named Leland did drop dead
(650)857-7572
Skitt
> "Mike Lyle" wrote...
>> Matti Lamprhey wrote:
>>> "Tony Cooper" wrote...
>>>> "Matti Lamprhey" wrote:
>>>>> "Tony Cooper" wrote...
>>>>>> "Matti Lamprhey" wrote:
>>>>>>> "Tony Cooper" wrote...
This might shed some light on the matter. Then again, it might not.
William Dean Howells
Familiar Spanish Travels
PHASES OF MADRID
[...]
III
This seems the place to note the fact that no Spaniard in humble life shaves
oftener than once in three days, and that you always see him on the third
day just before he has shaved. But all this time I have left myself sitting
in the cafe looking out on the club that looks out on the Calle de Aleala,
and keeping the waiter waiting with a jug of hot milk in his hand while I
convince him (such a friendly, smiling man he is, and glad of my
instruction!) that in tea one always wants the milk cold. To him that does
not seem reasonable, since one wants it hot in coffee and chocolate; but he
yields to my prejudice, and after that he always says, "Ah, leche fria!" and
we smile radiantly together in the bond of comradery which cold milk
establishes between man and man in Spain. As yet tea is a novelty in that
country, though the young English queen, universally loved and honored, has
made it the fashion in high life. Still it is hard to overcome such a
prepossession as that of hot milk in tea, and in some places you cannot get
it cold for love or money.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/
Mike Lyle
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 06:46:45 GMT, haye...@hotmail.com (Steve
Hayes)
> wrote:
>
>>> I expected problems with Balliol, and quickly mumbled through it,
>>> but I didn't expect problems with Magdalen.
>>
>> I knew about Magdalen, but what about Balliol?
>
> Looking at the word, I would pronounce it "Bally-oll" or
"Bally-ole".
> I'm quite sure, though, that the English pronounce it
"sear-en-cester"
> or something completely different from what I would expect.
Sometimes
> I really think that English pronunciation of towns and locations is
> part of the national defense program. Invading forces, given oral
> instructions, would never associate the sound of the word with the
> sight of the word on a map.
John BAYL-y@l (don't try to email him: he's history) was, of course,
a Scot. Like many famous Englishmen.
Mike.
Mickwick
>Ch.Ch.
Turn and face the strange.
--
Mickwick
Box, Cox, Detox, Praecox - as long as they never meet, things will go
swimmingly
Mickwick
>On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 02:28:04 +0000, Mickwick <mick...@use.reply.to>
>>Stick with Cambridge next time, then.
>
>I erred when I posted this and put it in aeu instead of aue. Then I
>posted it here. I was told in aeu that Cambridge has a Magedalen (add
>an "e"), but it is also pronounced "maudlin". What's my fall-back?
Whoops! I have been telling people for decades that Magdalene is
pronounced as it is spelt and that only Magdalen (which I always
spelled/spelt as Magdallen until horibly recently) does the Maudlin
thing.
A few years ago, a bright young thing was so disgusted by the
institutional affectations she perceived in this (apparently bogus)
distinction that she turned her back on Oxbridge and went to Durham
instead.
Was Magdalene never pronounced Mag-da-len[e]? I haven't ruined her life
or anything but it would be nice to think that my past is not wholly
confabulated. (I was at Cambridge from '76 to'78, or '77 to '79, or
something.)
[...]
>There must be other differences between England and Indiana, but that's
>the only thing that comes immediately to mind.
Nice feed. I'm too hungry to do it justice, alas.
--
Mickwick
England is an islandiana whereas Indiana is a
Indiana is an igloo b
One the one hand, fat drunks in shorts, on the other
Er
Er
Mickwick
>Christ Church College. (Haven't you read Gaudy Night?)
No. I've slept on the pavement in Barcelona. Does that count?
--
Mickwick
Wood Avens
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>OK, Matti, because it's you I went back and skimmed the book until I
>found the reference on page 48. (In the Swan Hotel in Bedford) "At
>breakfast we asked for two coffees and one milk. The milk came in a
>pitcher boiling hot, with skin on the top..."
>
>The 3 x 5 card that I used as a bookmark and for notes just says "Hot
>milk/tea?" I'm still assuming that the hot milk was to pour in the
>coffee since there's no mention of a glass (just jug) and it came with
>the coffee order.
>
>I think it's as odd to provide hot milk with coffee as it is with hot
>tea, but perhaps such things are viewed differently in England.
>Either use would serve to keep the beverage hotter.
Oh, well, that explains it. My parents routinely heated milk for
coffee, from the 1940s (and probably earlier, but that's not within my
memory) until their deaths a few years ago I know people who do it
today. (Personally, I hate it.)
But never for tea.
Wood Avens
wrote:
>In alt.usage.english, Wood Avens wrote:
>
>>Christ Church College. (Haven't you read Gaudy Night?)
>
>No. I've slept on the pavement in Barcelona. Does that count?
Hmm. Was it a particularly gaudy part of the city?
Wood Avens
<wood...@askjennison.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 21:26:03 +0000, Mickwick <mick...@use.reply.to>
>wrote:
>
>>In alt.usage.english, Wood Avens wrote:
>>
>>>Christ Church College. (Haven't you read Gaudy Night?)
>>
>>No. I've slept on the pavement in Barcelona. Does that count?
>
>Hmm. Was it a particularly gaudy part of the city?
Sorry, meant to write "Gaudi part ..." ... oh, dammit!
Mike Lyle
> In alt.usage.english, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 02:28:04 +0000, Mickwick
<mick...@use.reply.to>
>
>>> Stick with Cambridge next time, then.
>>
>> I erred when I posted this and put it in aeu instead of aue. Then
I
>> posted it here. I was told in aeu that Cambridge has a Magedalen
>> (add an "e"), but it is also pronounced "maudlin". What's my
>> fall-back?
>
> Whoops! I have been telling people for decades that Magdalene is
> pronounced as it is spelt and that only Magdalen (which I always
> spelled/spelt as Magdallen until horibly recently) does the Maudlin
> thing.
>
> A few years ago, a bright young thing was so disgusted by the
> institutional affectations she perceived in this (apparently bogus)
> distinction that she turned her back on Oxbridge and went to Durham
> instead.
>
> Was Magdalene never pronounced Mag-da-len[e]? I haven't ruined her
> life or anything but it would be nice to think that my past is not
> wholly confabulated. (I was at Cambridge from '76 to'78, or '77 to
> '79, or something.)
I posted the boring truth about this one earlier today. Well, no, not
boring at all, actually: I think it was dead fascinating.
>
> [...]
>
>> There must be other differences between England and Indiana, but
>> that's the only thing that comes immediately to mind.
>
> Nice feed. I'm too hungry to do it justice, alas.
In my case not drunk enough. But you're right: a damned good feed.
Could you do it again as a dessert some time, Tony?
Mike.
Tony Cooper
I stand, sit, and move about corrected on the tea/coffee point, but
why the "never" for tea? If it makes sense for coffee, then why not
tea? And, why do you hate it? Would it alter the taste?
I think it's highly impractical, but hateful?
J. J. Lodder
In France it is standard:
order a 'Cafe au lait' and you will get a big cup of coffee
and a jar of hot milk.
Not to bad, with breakfast,
Jan
the Omrud
Dibley. That was, of course, predicated on the comic potential of a
woman vicar. They could hardly do that without referring to the
church, although there is precious little religion in it.
> How about the Vicar in
> "Keeping Up Appearances"? Remember, what we get here is quite a bit
> behind what you may see there.
I've never watched more than a few minutes of that; I didn't know
there was a vicar. But I would suggest that it would be extremely
difficult to find anybody who resembled the characters in this,
whereas there are people like those in the other programmes I
mentioned (albeit without their quick wit and flawless timing).
> >> If you
> >> read a book set in America, you might read about a Rabbi or a Priest,
> >> but seldom anyone with a religious title. It's America, though, that
> >> is associated with religion.
> >
> >Count the congregations. The vast majority of UK churches are
> >running empty. Even the great cathedrals have few regular
> >worshipers, even if they have thousands of visitors. Country
> >churches have to share vicars - one vicar to three or four parishes.
> >Tourist attractions is what they are.
>
> You know this, but it's not obvious to the casual observer. As a
> tourist, did you notice how full our churches are or aren't?
No, you are right, I haven't examined that. I wasn't expecting you
to know that our churches are empty. I merely offer it as evidence.
The information we get on our news media is that a large percentage
of the US population attends weekly worship. Here, it is a tiny
percentage, and it's very tiny indeed if you discount recent arrivals
(I mean less than 100 years). Attendance at worship is far higher
amongst Muslims, and possibly also amongst Hindus and Jews.
the Omrud
> the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > You're not reading the same books as me. All that stuff is over 50
> > years old, and quite possibly related to the upper classes. You are
> > keen on some UK TV. How many references to religion have you seen in
> > Coupling,
>
> Well, there's the funeral in season one ("Sex, Death, and Nudity").
> Also
For most people, funerals are cultural events, rather than religious
ones. There is an amount of inertia in the celebrating of life
events (hatch, match and despatch), which frequently take place in
religious surroundings even thought the participants *never*
otherwise stray inside.
> "When God made the arse, he didn't say, 'Hey, it's just your basic
> hinge, let's knock off early.' He said, 'Behold ye angels, I have
> created the arse. Throughout the ages to come, men and women shall
> grab hold of these, and shout my name.'"
>
> That's from the same episode ("Faithless") in which Jane gets involved
> with her station's religious show host, who shows up again a few times
> over season 3. The scene with Jane explaining things to his Christian
> discussion group is hilarious.
True, I had forgotten that character. I can't exactly remember, but
I expect that his faith is treated with suspicion by the other
characters, as they are not used to being around such people.
Matti Lamprhey
I much prefer hot (scalded, not boiled) milk in my (strong) coffee, and
many hotels and restaurants in the UK will serve it in a pair of jugs;
a jug of cold milk is treated by me in the same way as an uncooked
tomato in my fried breakfast.
>
> I'm aware of the Spanish-style coffees with milk added, but I think
> that rather misses the point here. Perhaps not. If milk is added to
> tea (and surely you agree some do do that), then what is ludicrous
> about the temperature of the milk?
You could be right -- it's quite possible that tea might benefit rather
than suffer from warm milk. It's a pity you weren't around 200 years
ago to make the suggestion, because it's too late now to try out
newfangled concepts like that.
Matti
the Omrud
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 06:46:45 GMT, haye...@hotmail.com (Steve Hayes)
> wrote:
>
> >>I expected problems with Balliol, and quickly mumbled through it, but
> >>I didn't expect problems with Magdalen.
> >
> >I knew about Magdalen, but what about Balliol?
>
> Looking at the word, I would pronounce it "Bally-oll" or "Bally-ole".
> I'm quite sure, though, that the English pronounce it "sear-en-cester"
> or something completely different from what I would expect. Sometimes
> I really think that English pronunciation of towns and locations is
> part of the national defense program. Invading forces, given oral
> instructions, would never associate the sound of the word with the
> sight of the word on a map.
Well, yes, of course. A war-time film warning of beastly German
spies has a couple of old ladies arresting one after he asked
directions to "Jevon's Wood"
Wood Avens
It certainly alters the taste of coffee. It probably makes a
difference whether it's simply warmed, or heated to near or above
boiling point, though; I very much like the effect of the steamed milk
in capuccino.
Now I think about it, I suspect that for me personally it's partly an
old association thing: I have bad memories of being forced to drink
hot milk, complete with yukky skin, in hospital when I was a very
small child, and this set up a strong aversion to the smell, taste,
and concept of hot milk, and my only other regular, frequent encounter
with hot milk was seeing and smelling it heating for my parents'
coffee. This didn't extend to a dislike of cocoa, possibly because
that was only a rare treat.
I admit I've never tried hot (or warmed) milk in tea, and I'd be
disinclined to do so anyway, for the above reasons. But the real
answer is that it's simply Not Done. I don't know why. All the
possible drawbacks I can think of (like it cooling in the jug and
forming a skin during the interval between pouring one's first and
one's second cup) apply, I'd have thought, equally to coffee.
There may be a good scientific reason. I wonder if the incomparable
Harold McGee says anything about this. But I'm too tired to go and
look.
Mike Lyle
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 22:18:00 +0000, Wood Avens
> <wood...@askjennison.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 21:26:03 +0000, Mickwick
<mick...@use.reply.to>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In alt.usage.english, Wood Avens wrote:
>>>
>>>> Christ Church College. (Haven't you read Gaudy Night?)
>>>
>>> No. I've slept on the pavement in Barcelona. Does that count?
>>
>> Hmm. Was it a particularly gaudy part of the city?
>
> Sorry, meant to write "Gaudi part ..." ... oh, dammit!
I thought you'd done it on purpose! Never mind, we'll have one more
Gaudi night...
Mike.
Mike Lyle
But breakfast is what it's for. Café _au_ lait is utterly different
from café _avec du_ lait. The au lait version is best made with milk,
or milk and water, instead of just water. There was a time when some
British people only knew how to make coffee with milk instead of
water: shudder.
Mike.
Mike Lyle
>> I'm aware of the Spanish-style coffees with milk added, but I
think
>> that rather misses the point here. Perhaps not. If milk is added
to
>> tea (and surely you agree some do do that), then what is ludicrous
>> about the temperature of the milk?
>
> You could be right -- it's quite possible that tea might benefit
> rather than suffer from warm milk. It's a pity you weren't around
> 200 years ago to make the suggestion, because it's too late now to
> try out newfangled concepts like that.
Actually, India is the home of tea made with hot milk: consider
masala chai (with cannabis if you must, but I've never tried it;
rum's good, though); so it's a bit surprising that it took the hippie
period to introduce it to these islands.
I think the reason hot milk is barred is that it changes the taste of
the tea. Army tea with tinned evaporated milk is a compromise, of
course; and in its place it has no equal. I drink weakish Ceylon tea
without milk, but in the right time and place that military stuff can
be relished.
Mike.
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>I stand, sit, and move about corrected on the tea/coffee point, but
>why the "never" for tea? If it makes sense for coffee, then why not
>tea? And, why do you hate it? Would it alter the taste?
It certainly altered the taste in the Department of Water Affairs, Windhoek.
Sara Lorimer
> Steve Hayes wrote:
> > In collegiate universities, like Oxford, Cambridge and Durham, the
> > colleges are independent self-governing institutions, which usually
> > provide tuition to their students, but the university conducts the
> > examinations and awards the degrees, so you get an MA (Oxon) or (Cantab)
> > or a BA (Dunelm). At Durham, I am an alumnus of both my college and of
> > the university, and I get mail from both soliciting my contributions,
> > and the university provides its alumni with a very good e-mail
> > forwarding service.
>
> I don't know of any American university that has a structure like that of
> Oxford or Cambridge. There are some universities that have relatively
> loose affiliations with particular schools that might be seen to be part
> of the university (I'm thinking of the relationship between the Union
> Theological Seminary and Columbia University, but I don't really
> completely understand what it is).
Perhaps Barnard College and Columbia University, or Radcliffe Whatever
and Harvard University.
--
SML
J. J. Lodder
We know from a reliable source (Asterix et les Bretons)
that before that les Bretons drank just hot water,
with a litle cloud of milk.
Only les Gaulois shuddered,
Jan
--
"Ils sont fous, les Bretons." (Obelix)
Charles Riggs
<mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>You can trust Tony to report what he read in a book, shirley?
Shirley, that would depend on the book. Would Shirley trust him to
interpret what he'd read in _Ulysses_, for example?
--
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
<ma...@official-totally-reversed.com> wrote:
>"Mike Lyle" <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote...
>> You can trust Tony to report what he read in a book, shirley? He it
>> was who drew the comparison with _A Year in Provence_: you wouldn't
>> believe what you read in that, would you?
>
>But he may have misinterpreted what he read.
My point exactly, although I'd express it as 'probably', not 'may
have'.
--
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
wrote:
>Tony Cooper typed thusly:
>
>> Things that struck me: It seems that most of the aue regulars that are
>> from the UK do not practice a religion. Yet, so many of the UK
>> tourist attractions are churches, cathedrals, abbeys and other
>> religious buildings.
As is true in many, if not most, European countries. I enjoy going to
them; many people enjoy going to them. That doesn't say much of
anything about our belief or non-belief in God.
>>Each of the colleges at Oxford have a chapel.
>> You seldom read a book about the UK without one of the characters
>> being the Rector or the Vicar or the woman that does the flowers in
>> the church.
That is because rectors and vicars are funny characters, not because
people pay them much mind.
>You're not reading the same books as me. All that stuff is over 50
>years old, and quite possibly related to the upper classes. You are
>keen on some UK TV. How many references to religion have you seen in
>Coupling, My Family, Men Behaving Badly or Cold Feet?
I think _Cold Feet_ is excellent. I've watched it here a number of
times. I don't understand how I missed it in Ireland.
...
>Count the congregations. The vast majority of UK churches are
>running empty. Even the great cathedrals have few regular
>worshipers, even if they have thousands of visitors. Country
>churches have to share vicars - one vicar to three or four parishes.
>Tourist attractions is what they are.
Precisely.
--
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
<ma...@official-totally-reversed.com> wrote:
>"Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote...
>> "Matti Lamprhey" <ma...@official-totally-reversed.com> wrote:
>> >"Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote...
>> >> "Matti Lamprhey" <ma...@official-totally-reversed.com> wrote:
>> >> >"Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Things I didn't know: [...] Hot milk is sometimes provided with
>> >> >> tea.
>> >> >
>> >> >As you know, tea doesn't always mean tea. Can you provide more
>> >> >context?
>> >>
>> >> I don't think I need to look up the actual context to explain it.
>> >> She was talking about providing milk for the tea (to put in the
>> >> tea) and the milk was heated. It makes perfect sense to me. Cold
>> >> milk cools the tea, and hot milk doesn't. I've just never heard of
>> >> anyone going to the trouble.
>> >>
>> >> If I have to look up other references, I'll try to find the line
>> >> where this was mentioned.
>> >
>> >Surely you realize that "tea" can mean the meal rather than the
>> >beverage? That's why the context is important.
>> >
>> Matti, I'm fully aware of the meanings of "tea". Trust me on this.
>> She was referring to a jug of hot milk to pour in tea. I'll skim the
>> book and try to find it again, but give me a little credit here.
>
>Tony, I'd trust you on most things, but NOT when it comes to "tea".
Kiss, kiss, and not even sincere ones.
--
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
...
^ judicious snipping
>I'm aware of the Spanish-style coffees with milk added, but I think
>that rather misses the point here.
In Spain, isn't warm milk often provided for the coffee? Their coffee
is so strong, oftentimes, I need a lot of milk with it. I don't like
cold coffee, so there must have been some warm milk around, mustn't
there have been?
--
Charles Riggs
Theodore Heise
Tony Cooper <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I erred when I posted this and put it in aeu instead of aue.
> Then I posted it here.
Third time's the charm, eh?
--
Theodore (Ted) Heise <th...@heise.nu> Bloomington, IN, USA
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 03:00:08 GMT,
> Tony Cooper <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> I erred when I posted this and put it in aeu instead of aue.
>> Then I posted it here.
>
>Third time's the charm, eh?
I was chewing gum at the time.
the Omrud
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 17:04:31 -0000, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >You're not reading the same books as me. All that stuff is over 50
> >years old, and quite possibly related to the upper classes. You are
> >keen on some UK TV. How many references to religion have you seen in
> >Coupling, My Family, Men Behaving Badly or Cold Feet?
>
> I think _Cold Feet_ is excellent. I've watched it here a number of
> times. I don't understand how I missed it in Ireland.
And it's set in Manchester. Hurray.
Harvey Van Sickle
That's not that unusual, is it? Corrie and Queer as Folk spring to
mind. (And that pairing raises some intriguing scenarios: what *are*
those guys doing with -- or to -- Betty's hot pot?)
--
Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 22 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van)
John Dean
I think the difference relates to the amount of milk involved. With a
cup of tea, the amount of milk you put in isn't enough to make a major
difference to the temperature of the liquid. It's still too hot to drink
comfortably which is why, in my parents' generation, it was common to
see people pour some of their tea into a saucer, blow it to cool it and
drink from the saucer. Only after the tea-with-milk had stood a little
while was it safe to take more than a tiny sip.
With coffee, however the mix was closer to half and half so using cold
milk would lower the temperature below what was expected from a hot
beverage. I remember being with my boss in a restaurant in the 70s and
he went apeshit when they brought him an after dinner coffee with a jug
of cold milk. Posh service of coffee in restaurants back then involved a
waiter / waitress with two silver jugs, one of coffee, one of milk (hot)
which they would pour simultaneously into your cup, thereby achieving
the half and half. When you had coffee with cream, however, you needed
far less cream to bring the coffee to a golden brown colour and the
cream, therefore, was room temperature.
I have to say the only reason we're even *talking* about putting hot
milk in tea is that you raised it because you made an inaccurate
annotation.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Wood Avens
<mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Actually, India is the home of tea made with hot milk: consider
>masala chai
Made with hot milk, rather than hot milk being added to (brewed) tea,
isn't it? I like masala chai, though I don't think of it in the same
bracket as English-style tea, but I've never made it myself.
Harvey Van Sickle
-snip-
> Posh service of coffee in restaurants back then involved a waiter
> / waitress with two silver jugs, one of coffee, one of milk (hot)
> which they would pour simultaneously into your cup, thereby
> achieving the half and half.
For a couple of years I attended administrative/project meetings at
Buckingham Palace; both cold milk (for tea) and hot milk (for coffee)
were made available, with the hot milk served in a china jug with a
partially-covered top -- like a shaving mug -- so that the scummy bit
that formed on the top stayed in the jug. It was a bit of a
conservation point the first time it happened, particularly as
the meeting was populated by architectural and design historians.
(The other initial talking point was that the coffee and tea trolley
was wheeled in by a uniformed flunky; one got used to seeing them
around the place, though, so the novelty of that quickly wore off.)
the Omrud
> On 29 Jan 2005, the Omrud wrote
>
> > Charles Riggs typed thusly:
> >
> >> On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 17:04:31 -0000, the Omrud
> >> <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> You're not reading the same books as me. All that stuff is over
> >>> 50 years old, and quite possibly related to the upper classes.
> >>> You are keen on some UK TV. How many references to religion
> >>> have you seen in Coupling, My Family, Men Behaving Badly or Cold
> >>> Feet?
> >>
> >> I think _Cold Feet_ is excellent. I've watched it here a number
> >> of times. I don't understand how I missed it in Ireland.
> >
> > And it's set in Manchester. Hurray.
>
> That's not that unusual, is it? Corrie and Queer as Folk spring to
> mind. (And that pairing raises some intriguing scenarios: what *are*
> those guys doing with -- or to -- Betty's hot pot?)
I don't think you can count Soap - there are examples from many parts
of the UK. Until recently it was unusual for major modern drama
series to be set outside the south east, but this has been changing -
Cracker was set in Manchester as well.
For the record, I have never seen Coronation Street (although I have
been *in* Coronation Street) and for some reason we never watched
Queer as Folk. So I can't comment on your proposed syzygy.
Mike Lyle
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 23:44:18 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
> <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Actually, India is the home of tea made with hot milk: consider
>> masala chai
>
> Made with hot milk, rather than hot milk being added to (brewed)
tea,
> isn't it? I like masala chai, though I don't think of it in the
same
> bracket as English-style tea, but I've never made it myself.
Madhur Jaffrey's version is made with milk and water -- 20 fl oz of
water to only 6 of milk. You simmer the water with the spices, then
add the milk and sugar, bring back to temperature, and add the tea.
Mike.
Alan Jones
"Mike Lyle" <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:36224uF...@individual.net...
You can now buy tea-bags, or rather sachets, for making masala chai. You
pour boiling water over the sachet in the usual tea-bag way, leave to steep,
and add sugar and milk (I assume cold is intended) if liked. I've never
tasted the real thing, but this "instant" kind is palatable enough. The
spices are nothing like as dominant as the bergamot in Earl Grey.
Alan Jones
Tony Cooper
<john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
>With coffee, however the mix was closer to half and half
That's a difference I wasn't aware of. I use the same amount of cream
or milk in coffee as I would in tea.
Carmen L. Abruzzi
>
> ... With a
> cup of tea, the amount of milk you put in isn't enough to make a major
> difference to the temperature of the liquid. It's still too hot to drink
> With coffee, however the mix was closer to half and half
Too much milk.
> so using cold
> milk would lower the temperature below what was expected from a hot
> beverage. I remember being with my boss in a restaurant in the 70s and
> he went apeshit when they brought him an after dinner coffee with a jug
> of cold milk. Posh service of coffee in restaurants back then involved a
> waiter / waitress with two silver jugs, one of coffee, one of milk (hot)
> which they would pour simultaneously into your cup, thereby achieving
> the half and half.
"Half and half" in the US is a mixture of half cream and
half whole milk, intended for mixing with coffee. A small
amount of half and half, though, not half half and half and
half coffee.
> When you had coffee with cream, however, you needed
> far less cream to bring the coffee to a golden brown colour and the
> cream, therefore, was room temperature.
You need far less than half a volume of milk to do this,
though. Round here the milk, the cream and the half and
half are all room temperature. The only time you get heated
milk is with a cappucino or latte or macchiato.
M. J. Powell
<mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> writes
Only if the tea spoon will stand upright in the cup/mug.
Mike
M.J.Powell
Richard Maurer
In collegiate universities, like Oxford, Cambridge and Durham,
the colleges are independent self-governing institutions,
which usually provide tuition to their students, but the university
conducts the examinations and awards the degrees, so you get
an MA (Oxon) or (Cantab) or a BA (Dunelm). At Durham, I am
an alumnus of both my college and of the university,
and I get mail from both soliciting my contributions,
and the university provides its alumni with a
very good e-mail forwarding service.
Areff wrote:
I don't know of any American university that has a structure like
that of Oxford or Cambridge. There are some universities that have
relatively loose affiliations with particular schools that might
be seen to be part of the university (I'm thinking of the relationship
between the Union Theological Seminary and Columbia University,
but I don't really completely understand what it is).
Sara Lorimer wrote:
Perhaps Barnard College and Columbia University,
or Radcliffe Whatever and Harvard University.
I know of two consortiums (as they are sometimes called) that
come close to the Oxford structure.
In Massachusetts -- Amherst, Hampshire, Mount Holyoke, Smith,
and the Univ of Massachusetts (at Amherst) combine to call
themselves the "Five Colleges". The first four are exclusive,
expensive private colleges and UMass happened to be in the area.
The colleges are linked by buses, it can take 20 or 30 minutes
to get from one to another.
In California -- Pomona, Scripps, Claremont McKenna, Harvey Mudd,
and Pitzer call themselves the Claremont Colleges. These are
physically contiguous, students can walk or ride bikes
between classes to the various colleges. This group was
deliberately modeled upon the Oxford system.
In both, students can freely take classes at other colleges
up to some limit which isn't reached very often. The difference
with the Oxford University system is that all the degree
granting and alumni solicitation is done by the individual
college.
Trying to see if there were more such systems is complicated
by the fact that dozens of universities claim to have
an Oxford collegiate style, but that seems to mean that
the dormitories (residence houses, residence halls) are given
more prominence, with individual student governments
and perhaps a resident faculty member.
Now I remember that University of California at Santa Cruz
was modeled upon the Oxford system, with colleges (residences
and classroom clusters) physically separated but all within
biking distance). I know that at one time there some
significance to being in a specific college but I don't know
if that organization was kept.
-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
(word of the day -- sachem)
John Hatpin
>On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 02:51:43 +0000, John Hatpin
><nos...@brookview.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Tony Cooper wrote (snippage for space abounds hereon):
>>
>>>The author rents a house in Oxford and is told by the house's owner to
>>>clean the Rayburn's flue once a month and that the stove blacking is
>>>in the cupboard. I've seen "stove blacking" before, but what is it
>>>and how is it used? From the familiar phrase of "shoe black", I
>>>assume it's polish, but I can't picture polishing a stove.
>>
>>I think it comes in a tube, like toothpaste. Unlike most toothpastes,
>>it's black. You use a cloth to rub it into cast iron until it gleams.
>>Aesthetics aside, it prevents corrosion.
>>
>>I've been sitting here trying to remember the main brand name, but
>>with no success.
>
>Zebrite.
That's the one.
>At least, I think so, without going downstairs to look. It's also
>used to mix into the putty used in stained glass windows, which is why
>I have some.
Is it just used as a colouring agent in that role, or does it have a
deeper purpose?
--
John H
Yorkshire, England
John Dean
> John Dean wrote:
>>
>> ... With a
>> cup of tea, the amount of milk you put in isn't enough to make a
>> major difference to the temperature of the liquid. It's still too
>> hot to drink comfortably ...
>> With coffee, however the mix was closer to half and half
>
> Too much milk.
>
instant. The stuff I recollect being served in this way needed all the
milk it could get.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Robert Bannister
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 16:52:30 +0000, "Laura F. Spira"
> <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> said:
>
>
>>Matti Lamprhey wrote:
>
>
> [...]
>
>
>>>Tony, I'd trust you on most things, but NOT when it comes to "tea".
>>>There is NO WAY that anyone in Britain would EVER put hot milk into a
>>>cup of tea. It's simply ludicrous.
>
>
>
>>Muriel Beadle was writing about Oxford in the 1950s when there were
>>still some wildly eccentric people about who might just have done this.
>>My mother tells of lunch with the Misses Spooner which was a very
>>bizarre occasion where the menu included spaghetti, without any sauce,
>>and white blancmange.
>
>
> In Australia during World War II if you ordered a cup of
> coffee, the server would ask "White or black?" If you said
> "white" it was about half milk. Is that still the way?
>
Unfortunately, we have gone the way of the world and it is no longer
acceptable to ask for "coffee"; you must specify with some Italian word.
Of course, in people's homes, the normal language still prevails.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> Absolutely. We need to get to the bottom of this one before cherished
> cultural norms are swept away.
I'll steer away from tea, as I never did like it, but what I find
amusing is the way coffee (instant or the revolting Camp Coffee) was
often served with large amounts of hot milk - sometimes all milk and no
water. This disgusting habit died away, but what do our 'baristas' give
us today? Strong coffee with frothy, hot milk.
--
Rob Bannister