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Mud in your eye

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John Dean

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Aug 12, 2008, 9:05:23 AM8/12/08
to
"Here's mud in your eye" no longer seems to be the fashionable toast it was
when Pinewood studios were in their prime.
Whence?
The usual suspects suggest it began as rhyming sling for a (neck)tie. That
seems (a) improbable and (b) unlikely to lead to an alcoholic toast.
I ask again, "Whence?"
--
John Dean
Oxford


LFS

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Aug 12, 2008, 9:39:08 AM8/12/08
to
John Dean wrote:
> "Here's mud in your eye" no longer seems to be the fashionable toast it was
> when Pinewood studios were in their prime.

Oh dear. I must be deeply unfashionable, then. I said it only the day
before yesterday. (Irrelevant observation: Daughter will be getting
married at Pinewood studios next year.)

> Whence?
> The usual suspects suggest it began as rhyming sling for a (neck)tie. That
> seems (a) improbable and (b) unlikely to lead to an alcoholic toast.
> I ask again, "Whence?"

Googling suggests a biblical source (John, 9).


--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Peter Duncanson (BrE)

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Aug 12, 2008, 9:47:37 AM8/12/08
to

I've always taken it to be a "not tempting fate" thing such as
the theatrical "break a leg", but I've no idea of its origin.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

the Omrud

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Aug 12, 2008, 9:56:12 AM8/12/08
to
LFS wrote:
> John Dean wrote:
>> "Here's mud in your eye" no longer seems to be the fashionable toast
>> it was when Pinewood studios were in their prime.
>
> Oh dear. I must be deeply unfashionable, then. I said it only the day
> before yesterday. (Irrelevant observation: Daughter will be getting
> married at Pinewood studios next year.)

Golly, impressive. I hope you've managed to get Puttnam. Or Ridley
Scott, perhaps.

--
David

CDB

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Aug 12, 2008, 10:33:49 AM8/12/08
to
Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 14:05:23 +0100, "John Dean"
> <john...@fraglineone.net> wrote:

[kohl again, or the bleeding edge of slang]

>> I ask again, "Whence?"

> I've always taken it to be a "not tempting fate" thing such as
> the theatrical "break a leg", but I've no idea of its origin.

I've always thought it was meant pretty literally. Turn glass
bottoms-up, get dregs in eye. Gan bei!


Philip Eden

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Aug 12, 2008, 11:14:28 AM8/12/08
to
"John Dean" <john...@fraglineone.net> wrote:

Longman's Dictionary of English Idioms suggests a WW1 origin,
in the trenches. I suppose there was plenty of alcohol available
there, wasn't there?

Philip Eden


Fred Springer

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Aug 12, 2008, 11:15:29 AM8/12/08
to

Cassell's slang dictionary says that "mud in your eye" is rhyming slang
for eye, based on the toast "here's mud in your eye". It says the toast
itself dates from the 1920s, and says it originated in the military --
possibly as a reference to the muddy trenches of WW1.

Purl Gurl

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Aug 12, 2008, 11:42:57 AM8/12/08
to
John Dean wrote:

> "Here's mud in your eye" no longer seems to be the fashionable toast it was
> when Pinewood studios were in their prime.


Today, modern elitist socialites utter a more appropriate
and a more gentile toast for black-tie dinner events,

"Here's To Swimming With Bowlegged Women"

--
Purl Gurl
--
So many are stumped by what slips right off the top of my mind
like a man's bad fitting hairpiece.

Donna Richoux

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Aug 12, 2008, 11:56:47 AM8/12/08
to
Fred Springer <fred.s...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> John Dean wrote:
> > "Here's mud in your eye" no longer seems to be the fashionable toast it was
> > when Pinewood studios were in their prime.
> > Whence?
> > The usual suspects suggest it began as rhyming sling for a (neck)tie. That
> > seems (a) improbable and (b) unlikely to lead to an alcoholic toast.
> > I ask again, "Whence?"
>
> Cassell's slang dictionary says that "mud in your eye" is rhyming slang
> for eye,

You mean "necktie" there. My copy of Cassell's has two entries:

1) "mud's in your eye" (with an "s) as a noun meaning necktie, from
rhyming slang. With or without an "s," I don't find any examples of
this particular necktie meaning in Google Books. Cassell's gives it a
final date of 1940s. (It gives it a starting date *earlier* than the
toast, which makes no sense.)

2) "here's mud in your eye," the toast.

>based on the toast "here's mud in your eye". It says the toast
> itself dates from the 1920s, and says it originated in the military --
> possibly as a reference to the muddy trenches of WW1.

--
Best -- Donna Richoux

mm

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Aug 12, 2008, 12:52:56 PM8/12/08
to
On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:56:47 +0200, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
wrote:

>Fred Springer <fred.s...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>> John Dean wrote:
>> > "Here's mud in your eye" no longer seems to be the fashionable toast it was
>> > when Pinewood studios were in their prime.
>> > Whence?
>> > The usual suspects suggest it began as rhyming sling for a (neck)tie. That
>> > seems (a) improbable and (b) unlikely to lead to an alcoholic toast.
>> > I ask again, "Whence?"
>>
>> Cassell's slang dictionary says that "mud in your eye" is rhyming slang
>> for eye,
>
>You mean "necktie" there. My copy of Cassell's has two entries:
>
>1) "mud's in your eye" (with an "s) as a noun meaning necktie, from
>rhyming slang. With or without an "s," I don't find any examples of
>this particular necktie meaning in Google Books. Cassell's gives it a

They wore a lot of neckties in the trenches in WWI?

>final date of 1940s. (It gives it a starting date *earlier* than the
>toast, which makes no sense.)
>
>2) "here's mud in your eye," the toast.
>
>>based on the toast "here's mud in your eye". It says the toast
>> itself dates from the 1920s, and says it originated in the military --
>> possibly as a reference to the muddy trenches of WW1.


If you are inclined to email me
for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-)

Glenn Knickerbocker

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Aug 12, 2008, 3:09:03 PM8/12/08
to
Purl Gurl wrote:
> and a more gentile toast for black-tie dinner events,
> "Here's To Swimming With Bowlegged Women"

I'm pretty sure I've heard that one from Jews, too.

ŹR

J. J. Lodder

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Aug 12, 2008, 3:47:15 PM8/12/08
to
mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:56:47 +0200, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
> wrote:
>
> >Fred Springer <fred.s...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >
> >> John Dean wrote:
> >> > "Here's mud in your eye" no longer seems to be the fashionable toast
> >> > it was when Pinewood studios were in their prime. Whence? The usual
> >> > suspects suggest it began as rhyming sling for a (neck)tie. That
> >> > seems (a) improbable and (b) unlikely to lead to an alcoholic toast.
> >> > I ask again, "Whence?"
> >>
> >> Cassell's slang dictionary says that "mud in your eye" is rhyming slang
> >> for eye,
> >
> >You mean "necktie" there. My copy of Cassell's has two entries:
> >
> >1) "mud's in your eye" (with an "s) as a noun meaning necktie, from
> >rhyming slang. With or without an "s," I don't find any examples of
> >this particular necktie meaning in Google Books. Cassell's gives it a
>
> They wore a lot of neckties in the trenches in WWI?

There were trenches and trenches.
In the men's trenches, certainly not.
The officer's trenches were apart though.

I wouldn't be surprised at all to read
that the officers wore ties on special occasions.

Jan

Donna Richoux

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Aug 12, 2008, 4:22:49 PM8/12/08
to
mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:56:47 +0200, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
> wrote:
>
> >Fred Springer <fred.s...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Cassell's slang dictionary says that "mud in your eye" is rhyming slang
> >> for eye,
> >
> >You mean "necktie" there. My copy of Cassell's has two entries:
> >
> >1) "mud's in your eye" (with an "s) as a noun meaning necktie, from
> >rhyming slang. With or without an "s," I don't find any examples of
> >this particular necktie meaning in Google Books. Cassell's gives it a
>
> They wore a lot of neckties in the trenches in WWI?

Let's take this chronologically. Some time around 1920, people started
saying "Here's mud in your eye" as a toast, for unknown reasons (any
connection to WWI is flimsy). After that saying was established, a few
folks who were into rhyming slang spoke of "a mud's in your eye" to mean
"a necktie."

Fred Springer

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Aug 12, 2008, 5:18:19 PM8/12/08
to
Donna Richoux wrote:
> Fred Springer <fred.s...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>> John Dean wrote:
>>> "Here's mud in your eye" no longer seems to be the fashionable toast it was
>>> when Pinewood studios were in their prime.
>>> Whence?
>>> The usual suspects suggest it began as rhyming sling for a (neck)tie. That
>>> seems (a) improbable and (b) unlikely to lead to an alcoholic toast.
>>> I ask again, "Whence?"
>> Cassell's slang dictionary says that "mud in your eye" is rhyming slang
>> for eye,
>
> You mean "necktie" there.

Yes of course -- stupid of me.


My copy of Cassell's has two entries:
>
> 1) "mud's in your eye" (with an "s) as a noun meaning necktie, from
> rhyming slang. With or without an "s," I don't find any examples of
> this particular necktie meaning in Google Books. Cassell's gives it a
> final date of 1940s. (It gives it a starting date *earlier* than the
> toast, which makes no sense.)

Odd -- we must have different editions, because my copy gives it as "mud
in your eye", followed by [1940s+] which according to the system adopted
in that work means first used in the 1940s, and still in use now. Can't
say I've ever heard it myself, but I've never been much exposed to
rhyming slang. I've heard the toast quite a lot, but it's rather dated now.

My edition of Cassell's is the second, published 2005.

mm

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Aug 12, 2008, 6:18:20 PM8/12/08
to
On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 22:22:49 +0200, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
wrote:

>


>> They wore a lot of neckties in the trenches in WWI?
>
>Let's take this chronologically. Some time around 1920, people started
>saying "Here's mud in your eye" as a toast, for unknown reasons (any
>connection to WWI is flimsy). After that saying was established, a few
>folks who were into rhyming slang spoke of "a mud's in your eye" to mean
>"a necktie."

Thank you. That clears it all up.

And I'm going to spend my time in the Officer's Trench.

the Omrud

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Aug 12, 2008, 6:26:21 PM8/12/08
to

Just for the record, although the phrase is well known, possibly from
the movies, I don't believe it's ever used to mean "tie" (we don't say
"necktie") in BrE.

--
David

Gunga Din

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Aug 12, 2008, 6:28:24 PM8/12/08
to

"John Dean" <john...@fraglineone.net> wrote in message
news:6gdg8qF...@mid.individual.net...

Like 'plonk' and 'toodleoo', it is an English shortening and accommodation
of the traditional Alsatian toast "Ein Prosit der Gemütlichkeit"

Bob Cunningham

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Aug 12, 2008, 7:29:47 PM8/12/08
to
On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 23:28:24 +0100, "Gunga Din" <no...@none.com>
wrote:

I suspect it was a loan translation from Pig Latin "Udmay inay ouryay
eyeay".
--
Woody Wordpecker
Greater Los Angeles, California
USA

R H Draney

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Aug 12, 2008, 8:50:53 PM8/12/08
to
Gunga Din filted:

>
>"John Dean" <john...@fraglineone.net> wrote in message
>news:6gdg8qF...@mid.individual.net...
>
>> "Here's mud in your eye" no longer seems to be the fashionable toast it
>> was when Pinewood studios were in their prime.
>> Whence?
>> The usual suspects suggest it began as rhyming sling for a (neck)tie. That
>> seems (a) improbable and (b) unlikely to lead to an alcoholic toast.
>> I ask again, "Whence?"
>
>Like 'plonk' and 'toodleoo', it is an English shortening and accommodation
>of the traditional Alsatian toast "Ein Prosit der Gemütlichkeit"

I like French toast, but I don't believe I've ever tried Alsatian toast....r


--
Evelyn Wood just looks at the pictures.

Purl Gurl

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Aug 12, 2008, 9:09:19 PM8/12/08
to
Glenn Knickerbocker wrote:

> Purl Gurl wrote:

Oh no, not Jewish men; they are smart. A Jewish man
would not utter such a toast, not if he wants to get
laid by his Jewish Princess in the next ten years.

Fred Springer

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Aug 12, 2008, 9:31:12 PM8/12/08
to
Purl Gurl wrote:
> John Dean wrote:
>
>> "Here's mud in your eye" no longer seems to be the fashionable toast
>> it was when Pinewood studios were in their prime.
>
>
> Today, modern elitist socialites utter a more appropriate
> and a more gentile toast for black-tie dinner events,
>
> "Here's To Swimming With Bowlegged Women"
>
Do we really want to start a toasts thread? It could go on forever.

Here's three hoary old favourites to get the ball rolling:

"Here's looking up your kilt" -- said of course in a cod Scots accent.

The naval toast: "To wives and sweethearts" -- to which the response is
"May they never meet".

"Here's to the girl who lives on the hill; She won't but her sister
will" -- and the roared response: "Here's to her sister".


Isabella Z

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Aug 13, 2008, 4:48:12 AM8/13/08
to
On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 22:22:49 +0200, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)

wrote:
>mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:56:47 +0200, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
>> wrote:
>> >Fred Springer <fred.s...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
...

>> >1) "mud's in your eye" (with an "s) as a noun meaning necktie, from
>> >rhyming slang. With or without an "s," I don't find any examples of
>> >this particular necktie meaning in Google Books. Cassell's gives it a
>>
>> They wore a lot of neckties in the trenches in WWI?
>
>Let's take this chronologically. Some time around 1920, people started
>saying "Here's mud in your eye" as a toast, for unknown reasons (any
>connection to WWI is flimsy). After that saying was established, a few
>folks who were into rhyming slang spoke of "a mud's in your eye" to mean
>"a necktie."

Fancy seeing a thread here and now concerning this particular
phrase... I wish John had started it about two months ago, when I went
(almost) crazy looking it up, as it appeared in a 1938 British book I
was translating.

I understand there is no conclusive evidence linking the toasting
version to the trenches in WWI, but at the time (of my translation,
not the Great war) I remember reading something along the lines of
soldiers being temporarily blinded by mud in their eyes after an
explosion close by, and being thankful for it because it meant they
were still alive... hence the auspicious meaning. A charming
explanation, I think, even if it were phoney.
Ciao,
--
Isa
Work like you don't need money,
Love like you've never been hurt,
And dance like no one's watching

http://web.tiscali.it/alfabeto_auschwitz/index.htm

Donna Richoux

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Aug 13, 2008, 5:25:49 AM8/13/08
to
Gunga Din <no...@none.com> wrote:

> "John Dean" <john...@fraglineone.net> wrote in message
> news:6gdg8qF...@mid.individual.net...
> > "Here's mud in your eye" no longer seems to be the fashionable toast it
> > was when Pinewood studios were in their prime.
> > Whence?
> > The usual suspects suggest it began as rhyming sling for a (neck)tie. That
> > seems (a) improbable and (b) unlikely to lead to an alcoholic toast.
> > I ask again, "Whence?"
>

> Like 'plonk' and 'toodleoo', it is an English shortening and accommodation
> of the traditional Alsatian toast "Ein Prosit der Gemütlichkeit"

I like that! "Gemütlichkeit" has the right similarity to "mud in your
eye." All along, I vaguely assumed that "mud in your eye" was an
Anglicization of some foreign toast, but I didn't know which.

Isabella Z

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Aug 13, 2008, 5:50:16 AM8/13/08
to
On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:25:49 +0200, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
wrote:

You mean the same phenomenon by which "Enfanta de Castilla" turned
into "Elephant and Castle"? Interesting!

Donna Richoux

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Aug 13, 2008, 6:08:05 AM8/13/08
to
Fred Springer <fred.s...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> Donna Richoux wrote:
> >
> > 1) "mud's in your eye" (with an "s) as a noun meaning necktie, from
> > rhyming slang. With or without an "s," I don't find any examples of
> > this particular necktie meaning in Google Books. Cassell's gives it a
> > final date of 1940s. (It gives it a starting date *earlier* than the
> > toast, which makes no sense.)
>
> Odd -- we must have different editions, because my copy gives it as "mud
> in your eye", followed by [1940s+] which according to the system adopted
> in that work means first used in the 1940s, and still in use now. Can't
> say I've ever heard it myself, but I've never been much exposed to
> rhyming slang. I've heard the toast quite a lot, but it's rather dated now.
>
> My edition of Cassell's is the second, published 2005.

Mine is marked "First published 1998, First paperback edition 2000" so
yours is newer. The entry in mine for "mud's in your eye" said [late
19C-1940s]. So between my edition and yours, they dropped the 19th
century and added a plus to the 1940s.

Anyway, I'm a convert to the "gemütlichkeit" theory.

Richard Maurer

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Aug 13, 2008, 7:38:02 AM8/13/08
to
John Dean wrote:
"Here's mud in your eye" no longer seems to be the
fashionable toast it was when Pinewood studios were
in their prime.
Whence?


Maybe we can blame the automobile. Fewer people today had
impromptu races while getting around on horses in their youth.

Second one to finish gets mud in an eye flung by the hooves
of the lead horse.

-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
(Or in an octopus's garden, in the shade.)

John Dean

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Aug 13, 2008, 9:08:47 AM8/13/08
to

It's the dog's bollocks ...
--
John Dean
Oxford


John Dean

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Aug 13, 2008, 9:10:45 AM8/13/08
to
Isabella Z wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 22:22:49 +0200, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
> wrote:
>> mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:56:47 +0200, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
>>> wrote:
>>>> Fred Springer <fred.s...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> ...
>>>> 1) "mud's in your eye" (with an "s) as a noun meaning necktie, from
>>>> rhyming slang. With or without an "s," I don't find any examples of
>>>> this particular necktie meaning in Google Books. Cassell's gives
>>>> it a
>>>
>>> They wore a lot of neckties in the trenches in WWI?
>>
>> Let's take this chronologically. Some time around 1920, people
>> started saying "Here's mud in your eye" as a toast, for unknown
>> reasons (any connection to WWI is flimsy). After that saying was
>> established, a few folks who were into rhyming slang spoke of "a
>> mud's in your eye" to mean "a necktie."
>
> Fancy seeing a thread here and now concerning this particular
> phrase... I wish John had started it about two months ago, when I went
> (almost) crazy looking it up, as it appeared in a 1938 British book I
> was translating.
>

Désolé. I do apologise for being tardy. Is there some other thread I could
start in the next few days by way of compensation?
--
John Dean
Oxford


John Dean

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Aug 13, 2008, 9:16:14 AM8/13/08
to
Isabella Z wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:25:49 +0200, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
> wrote:
>> Gunga Din <no...@none.com> wrote:
>>> "John Dean" <john...@fraglineone.net> wrote in message
>>> news:6gdg8qF...@mid.individual.net...
>>>> "Here's mud in your eye" no longer seems to be the fashionable
>>>> toast it was when Pinewood studios were in their prime.
>>>> Whence?
>>>> The usual suspects suggest it began as rhyming sling for a
>>>> (neck)tie. That seems (a) improbable and (b) unlikely to lead to
>>>> an alcoholic toast.
>>>> I ask again, "Whence?"
>>>
>>> Like 'plonk' and 'toodleoo', it is an English shortening and
>>> accommodation of the traditional Alsatian toast "Ein Prosit der
>>> Gemütlichkeit"
>>
>> I like that! "Gemütlichkeit" has the right similarity to "mud in your
>> eye." All along, I vaguely assumed that "mud in your eye" was an
>> Anglicization of some foreign toast, but I didn't know which.
>
> You mean the same phenomenon by which "Enfanta de Castilla" turned
> into "Elephant and Castle"? Interesting!
> Ciao,

Ah, a favourite UL. See,eg:

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ele1.htm

The only 'infanta' the Brits took any notice of had nothing to do with
Castile, and the only Castilian princess who impinged on our consciousness
wasn't an infanta. And the name has only been used since the mid-18th
Century anyway. As we say hereabouts, God Encompasseth Us.
--
John Dean
Oxford


Isabella Z

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Aug 13, 2008, 10:11:40 AM8/13/08
to
On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:10:45 +0100, "John Dean"
<john...@fraglineone.net> wrote:

>Isabella Z wrote:
>> Fancy seeing a thread here and now concerning this particular
>> phrase... I wish John had started it about two months ago, when I went
>> (almost) crazy looking it up, as it appeared in a 1938 British book I
>> was translating.
>>
>Désolé. I do apologise for being tardy. Is there some other thread I could
>start in the next few days by way of compensation?

Oh! How gentlemanly of you! Well, I do have a little problem with
"blue-sky ideas" (but I haven't researched it much yet!), and also I'd
like to know what you make of this passage and especially the part
between **:

"Bit maudlin tonight, are we, John?" he asked himself out loud. Then
gave a little chuckle, knowing he could maudle for Scotland, *gold
medal a nap* at the Grump Olympics.

(Well, the general meaning and the single words are clear. It's the
construction that baffles me a bit, and also the fact that I don't see
napping as a specialty at the "Grump" Olympics.)
(The John in question is DI John Rebus, should anyone happen to be
familiar with the character.)
Thanks a lot...!

Isabella Z

unread,
Aug 13, 2008, 10:14:17 AM8/13/08
to
On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:16:14 +0100, "John Dean"
<john...@fraglineone.net> wrote:

>Isabella Z wrote:
...


>> You mean the same phenomenon by which "Enfanta de Castilla" turned
>> into "Elephant and Castle"? Interesting!
>> Ciao,
>
>Ah, a favourite UL. See,eg:
>http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ele1.htm

My, this is great. This is more than enough compensation for being
late elsewhere. (Shame about the Post That Already Got Sent!)
Thanks again,
Ciao

Philip Eden

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Aug 13, 2008, 11:05:08 AM8/13/08
to
"Isabella Z" <isabel...@METTILEPATtinE.it> wrote :

>
> "Bit maudlin tonight, are we, John?" he asked himself out loud. Then
> gave a little chuckle, knowing he could maudle for Scotland, *gold
> medal a nap* at the Grump Olympics.
>
> (Well, the general meaning and the single words are clear. It's the
> construction that baffles me a bit, and also the fact that I don't see
> napping as a specialty at the "Grump" Olympics.)
> (The John in question is DI John Rebus, should anyone happen to be
> familiar with the character.)
> Thanks a lot...!

"Nap", here, is a horse-racing expression which describes a horse
which is the runaway favourite to win a race. I rather like the
cod backformation of maudle, though I dare say it's been done
before. Rebus is a real grump, although it's occasionally struck
me that someone with such insight into his melancholy is nowhere
near as badly off as one without.

Philip Eden


the Omrud

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Aug 13, 2008, 11:23:15 AM8/13/08
to
Philip Eden wrote:
> "Isabella Z" <isabel...@METTILEPATtinE.it> wrote :
>> "Bit maudlin tonight, are we, John?" he asked himself out loud. Then
>> gave a little chuckle, knowing he could maudle for Scotland, *gold
>> medal a nap* at the Grump Olympics.
>>
>> (Well, the general meaning and the single words are clear. It's the
>> construction that baffles me a bit, and also the fact that I don't see
>> napping as a specialty at the "Grump" Olympics.)
>> (The John in question is DI John Rebus, should anyone happen to be
>> familiar with the character.)
>> Thanks a lot...!

"to maudle" is so obscure and obsolete that I'd never seen it before.

> "Nap", here, is a horse-racing expression which describes a horse
> which is the runaway favourite to win a race. I rather like the
> cod backformation of maudle, though I dare say it's been done
> before. Rebus is a real grump, although it's occasionally struck
> me that someone with such insight into his melancholy is nowhere
> near as badly off as one without.

Perhaps he went to Maudlin College Oxford.

--
David

Isabella Z

unread,
Aug 13, 2008, 11:30:50 AM8/13/08
to
On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:05:08 +0100, "Philip Eden"
<philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom> wrote:
>"Isabella Z" <isabel...@METTILEPATtinE.it> wrote :
>> "Bit maudlin tonight, are we, John?" he asked himself out loud. Then
>> gave a little chuckle, knowing he could maudle for Scotland, *gold
>> medal a nap* at the Grump Olympics.
>>
>> (Well, the general meaning and the single words are clear.

(Yeah, right!)

>"Nap", here, is a horse-racing expression which describes a horse
>which is the runaway favourite to win a race.

Of bloody course. NOW it all makes sense, and thanks a lot for that. I
mean it. Good for my and my translation.

>I rather like the
>cod backformation of maudle, though I dare say it's been done
>before.

Yes, I like that too, and it's one of the beauties of English that it
can do that.

>Rebus is a real grump, although it's occasionally struck
>me that someone with such insight into his melancholy is nowhere
>near as badly off as one without.

Though it seems now, melancholy and his insight into it are the only
company he has, which is rather sad. I like him because he's so real,
and yet I keep hoping for a spot of happiness for him.
Thanks again!

Chuck Riggs

unread,
Aug 13, 2008, 11:55:07 AM8/13/08
to
On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 16:14:28 +0100, "Philip Eden"
<philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom> wrote:

>"John Dean" <john...@fraglineone.net> wrote:
>
>> "Here's mud in your eye" no longer seems to be the fashionable toast it
>> was when Pinewood studios were in their prime.
>> Whence?
>> The usual suspects suggest it began as rhyming sling for a (neck)tie. That
>> seems (a) improbable and (b) unlikely to lead to an alcoholic toast.
>> I ask again, "Whence?"

>> --
>Longman's Dictionary of English Idioms suggests a WW1 origin,
>in the trenches. I suppose there was plenty of alcohol available
>there, wasn't there?

Exactly, for it was during the Roaring Twenties in America that booze
flowed, prohibited or not. From the many films I've watched portraying
that era, I associate the phrase with the 1920s.
--

Regards,

Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland

Chuck Riggs

unread,
Aug 13, 2008, 11:57:08 AM8/13/08
to
On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 22:22:49 +0200, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
wrote:

But was rhyming slang popular in 1920s America? I didn't think so.

Chuck Riggs

unread,
Aug 13, 2008, 12:01:32 PM8/13/08
to
On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 15:09:03 -0400, Glenn Knickerbocker
<No...@bestweb.net> wrote:

>Purl Gurl wrote:
>> and a more gentile toast for black-tie dinner events,
>> "Here's To Swimming With Bowlegged Women"
>

>I'm pretty sure I've heard that one from Jews, too.

I first heard it from the boat captain in the movie Jaws. His toast
went, Here's to Swimmin' with Bowlegged Women, which rhymes better.

Chuck Riggs

unread,
Aug 13, 2008, 12:04:12 PM8/13/08
to
On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 23:28:24 +0100, "Gunga Din" <no...@none.com> wrote:

So that must be where "Prosit!" comes from, which I've heard many
times in German bars.

John Dean

unread,
Aug 13, 2008, 7:34:35 PM8/13/08
to
Isabella Z wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:05:08 +0100, "Philip Eden"
> <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom> wrote:
>> "Isabella Z" <isabel...@METTILEPATtinE.it> wrote :
>>> "Bit maudlin tonight, are we, John?" he asked himself out loud. Then
>>> gave a little chuckle, knowing he could maudle for Scotland, *gold
>>> medal a nap* at the Grump Olympics.
>>>
>>> (Well, the general meaning and the single words are clear.
>
> (Yeah, right!)
>
>> "Nap", here, is a horse-racing expression which describes a horse
>> which is the runaway favourite to win a race.
>
> Of bloody course. NOW it all makes sense, and thanks a lot for that. I
> mean it. Good for my and my translation.

Uh huh. It looks at first as if "gold medal" has been verbed but the
construction is "... [a] gold medal [would be a] nap ..." ie the medal would
be a certainty. I would disagree that 'nap' in horse racing means a runaway
favourite. In the parlance of the tipsters, they pick their selections for
the card at a meeting and designate one horse as the 'best bet'. This is
their 'nap' and may well not be a favourite at all. In the league tables of
newspaper tipsters, they are usually judged on their 'nap' selections so
it's to their advantage to get the occasional nap at longer odds than the
favourite. The expression probably comes from the card game of Nap where a
'nap' hand' takes all tricks.
The OED cites for the tipsters' 'nap' shows the ideas:

"1895 Starting Price 30 Mar. 1/2 Our 'Outsider's' nap of Docker for the
Hainton Stakes. 1926 Westm. Gaz. 20 July 1/4 The Whip, who yesterday gave
Lightstep, Nap (won 3-1),+continues to hold a strong lead in Naps over the
selections of the other racing critics. 1927 W. E. Collinson Contemp. Eng.
30 He stars this one, and the horse so starred is the nap selection. 1937
E. Rickman On & off Racecourse ix. 195 Every racing writer gives a single
'nap' or starred selection each day. It is his idea of the most promising
bet the programme affords. 1960 Which? Mar. 60/1 The figures in the table
are based on the correspondent's 'nap' selection-the word comes from a card
game-for each day's racing, the horse that he thinks is the best bet."

>
>> I rather like the
>> cod backformation of maudle, though I dare say it's been done
>> before.
>
> Yes, I like that too, and it's one of the beauties of English that it
> can do that.

It's real enough in OED though it *was* originally a back formation:

"1706 Phillips (ed. Kersey), To Maudle, to besot, or put out of Order, as
drinking strong Liquors does in a Morning. Ibid., Maudlin, maudled, half
drunk. 1826 Examiner 124/1 Leaving John Bull to suck his thumbs, and maudle
about 'his good Queen Anne'."

>
>> Rebus is a real grump, although it's occasionally struck
>> me that someone with such insight into his melancholy is nowhere
>> near as badly off as one without.
>
> Though it seems now, melancholy and his insight into it are the only
> company he has, which is rather sad. I like him because he's so real,
> and yet I keep hoping for a spot of happiness for him.

Being a grump is becoming something of a badge of honour. The TV show
"Grumpy Old Men" where elderly slebs complain fetchingly of the trials of
modern life is into its 3rd or 4th series and has spawned '"Grumpy Old
Women" which has, in its turn, become a travelling stage show. Vive les
grognards!
--
John Dean
Oxford


John Dean

unread,
Aug 13, 2008, 7:36:18 PM8/13/08
to
Isabella Z wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:10:45 +0100, "John Dean"
> <john...@fraglineone.net> wrote:
>> Isabella Z wrote:
>>> Fancy seeing a thread here and now concerning this particular
>>> phrase... I wish John had started it about two months ago, when I
>>> went (almost) crazy looking it up, as it appeared in a 1938 British
>>> book I was translating.
>>>
>> Désolé. I do apologise for being tardy. Is there some other thread I
>> could start in the next few days by way of compensation?
>
> Oh! How gentlemanly of you! Well, I do have a little problem with
> "blue-sky ideas" (but I haven't researched it much yet!)

I won't spoil your fun (unless you insist) but I will say that "blue sky"
ideas seemed to follow on, in the business world, from "green field" ideas.
--
John Dean
Oxford


John Dean

unread,
Aug 13, 2008, 7:40:20 PM8/13/08
to
Chuck Riggs wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 23:28:24 +0100, "Gunga Din" <no...@none.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> "John Dean" <john...@fraglineone.net> wrote in message
>> news:6gdg8qF...@mid.individual.net...
>>> "Here's mud in your eye" no longer seems to be the fashionable
>>> toast it was when Pinewood studios were in their prime.
>>> Whence?
>>>
>>
>> Like 'plonk' and 'toodleoo', it is an English shortening and
>> accommodation of the traditional Alsatian toast "Ein Prosit der
>> Gemütlichkeit"
>
> So that must be where "Prosit!" comes from, which I've heard many
> times in German bars.

'Prosit' is pretty much the standard German for "Cheers" though it's used in
other expressions too. It may interest you to know it derives from Latin
"may it benefit [you]".
--
John Dean
Oxford


Frank ess

unread,
Aug 13, 2008, 8:17:34 PM8/13/08
to

In the middle-late 1960s I had a subscription to the monthly magazine,
"GRUMP". It included, as I remember it, articles by well-known grumps
who were quite articulate in expressing their dismay and/or irritation
at government activities in particular, but quite a spread of
offensive features of modern life. My collection is complete but
misplaced. I do have the button proclaiming, "Watch it—I'm a GRUMP".

http://www.flicklives.com/Magazines/Grump/Grump.htm

--
Frank ess

Robert Bannister

unread,
Aug 13, 2008, 8:39:56 PM8/13/08
to

A few thousand years ago, you could have heard it in Roman bars too.

--
Rob Bannister

Isabella Z

unread,
Aug 14, 2008, 9:14:41 AM8/14/08
to
On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 00:36:18 +0100, "John Dean"

<john...@fraglineone.net> wrote:
>Isabella Z wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:10:45 +0100, "John Dean"
>> <john...@fraglineone.net> wrote:
...

>>> Is there some other thread I
>>> could start in the next few days by way of compensation?

>> Oh! How gentlemanly of you! Well, I do have a little problem with
>> "blue-sky ideas" (but I haven't researched it much yet!)

>I won't spoil your fun (unless you insist) but I will say that "blue sky"
>ideas seemed to follow on, in the business world, from "green field" ideas.

The Oxford University Press on line provided help re. blue-sky, and of
course I had a look into greenfield too, since you'd piqued my
curiosity. There indeed seems to be a connection here, like a blue-sky
idea is a greenfield project that has lost all touch with reality. A
bit like the Strait of Messina Bridge, I'd say (or is that a blue-sea
idea?)
Thanks, John.

Isabella Z

unread,
Aug 14, 2008, 9:22:43 AM8/14/08
to
On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 00:34:35 +0100, "John Dean"
<john...@fraglineone.net> wrote:

>Isabella Z wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:05:08 +0100, "Philip Eden"
>> <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom> wrote:
>>> "Isabella Z" <isabel...@METTILEPATtinE.it> wrote :
>>>> "Bit maudlin tonight, are we, John?" he asked himself out loud. Then
>>>> gave a little chuckle, knowing he could maudle for Scotland, *gold
>>>> medal a nap* at the Grump Olympics.

...


>>> "Nap", here, is a horse-racing expression which describes a horse
>>> which is the runaway favourite to win a race.
>>

>> Of bloody course. NOW it all makes sense...

You, again! :-)

>Uh huh. It looks at first as if "gold medal" has been verbed but the
>construction is "... [a] gold medal [would be a] nap ..."

I see, a sort of ablative absolute then. (Though I liked the idea of
"gold-medalling a nap"...) The idea is that the gold medal would be a
walkover, right...? (Thanks for all the rest, too.)

>>> Rebus is a real grump...

>Being a grump is becoming something of a badge of honour. The TV show
>"Grumpy Old Men" where elderly slebs complain fetchingly of the trials of
>modern life is into its 3rd or 4th series and has spawned '"Grumpy Old
>Women" which has, in its turn, become a travelling stage show. Vive les
>grognards!

This adds substance to my choice of an Italian equivalent. *That* one
I've nailed, I think.

CDB

unread,
Aug 14, 2008, 9:30:14 AM8/14/08
to
John Dean wrote:

[toast]

> 'Prosit' is pretty much the standard German for "Cheers" though
> it's used in other expressions too. It may interest you to know it
> derives from Latin "may it benefit [you]".

Ah, yes. I remember seeing (a photo of) a Pompeian graffito, with a
picture of a nice little ass and the motto LABORA ASELLE QVOMODO EGO
LABORAVI ET PRODERIT TIBI: "Work, little donkey, as I have worked, and
it will do you good." Interesting that there is a "d" before forms of
"-esse" beginning with vowels but no doubling of initial consonants
(*prossit). Thought it might be a matter of vowel length, but my
dictionary says the "o" is long in all forms.


Chuck Riggs

unread,
Aug 14, 2008, 9:33:22 AM8/14/08
to
On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 12:08:05 +0200, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
wrote:

>Fred Springer <fred.s...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

Yes, that seems a more likely scenario than a reference to soldiers
having mud in their eyes. Who'd drink to that?

tony cooper

unread,
Aug 14, 2008, 9:37:48 AM8/14/08
to
On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 15:14:41 +0200, Isabella Z
<isabel...@METTILEPATtinE.it> wrote:

>On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 00:36:18 +0100, "John Dean"
><john...@fraglineone.net> wrote:
>>Isabella Z wrote:
>>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:10:45 +0100, "John Dean"
>>> <john...@fraglineone.net> wrote:
>...
>>>> Is there some other thread I
>>>> could start in the next few days by way of compensation?
>
>>> Oh! How gentlemanly of you! Well, I do have a little problem with
>>> "blue-sky ideas" (but I haven't researched it much yet!)
>
>>I won't spoil your fun (unless you insist) but I will say that "blue sky"
>>ideas seemed to follow on, in the business world, from "green field" ideas.
>
>The Oxford University Press on line provided help re. blue-sky, and of
>course I had a look into greenfield too, since you'd piqued my
>curiosity. There indeed seems to be a connection here, like a blue-sky
>idea is a greenfield project that has lost all touch with reality. A
>bit like the Strait of Messina Bridge, I'd say (or is that a blue-sea
>idea?)

In the US, "blue-sky" thinking is out-of-the-box thinking...'way
out-of-the-box. An executive might charge his underlings to "blue-sky
this concept" meaning "come up with any possible idea, problem,
solution, technique, plan, etc that can even remotely be considered
applicable". It opens the discussion to suggestions that might not
make sense on their own, but might lead to modifications or
elaboration that do make sense.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Chuck Riggs

unread,
Aug 14, 2008, 9:39:28 AM8/14/08
to

John Dean said it is from a Latin expression, but are we sure the
Romans had bars? Somehow, I can't picture it.

John Dean

unread,
Aug 14, 2008, 2:06:02 PM8/14/08
to
Chuck Riggs wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 08:39:56 +0800, Robert Bannister
> <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>> Chuck Riggs wrote:
>>> On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 23:28:24 +0100, "Gunga Din" <no...@none.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "John Dean" <john...@fraglineone.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:6gdg8qF...@mid.individual.net...
>>>>> "Here's mud in your eye" no longer seems to be the fashionable
>>>>> toast it was when Pinewood studios were in their prime.
>>>>> Whence?
>>>>> The usual suspects suggest it began as rhyming sling for a
>>>>> (neck)tie. That seems (a) improbable and (b) unlikely to lead to
>>>>> an alcoholic toast.
>>>>> I ask again, "Whence?"
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>> Like 'plonk' and 'toodleoo', it is an English shortening and
>>>> accommodation of the traditional Alsatian toast "Ein Prosit der
>>>> Gemütlichkeit"
>>>
>>> So that must be where "Prosit!" comes from, which I've heard many
>>> times in German bars.
>>
>> A few thousand years ago, you could have heard it in Roman bars too.
>
> John Dean said it is from a Latin expression, but are we sure the
> Romans had bars? Somehow, I can't picture it.

Well, the Romans certainly had several words for 'tavern' including the one
that eventually became English 'tavern'. And "A good wine needs no bush" is
said to derive from the Roman custom of hanging vine leaves outside the
caupona.
--
John Dean
Oxford


Robert Bannister

unread,
Aug 14, 2008, 7:46:53 PM8/14/08
to

I tried Google images, "roman taverna", but the resulting pictures were
not all that convincing. However, those of us who faithfully follow
Lindsey Davis' "Falco" series are quite sure that Roman bars existed.
--
Rob Bannister

Roland Hutchinson

unread,
Aug 14, 2008, 11:03:24 PM8/14/08
to
Chuck Riggs wrote:

You have obviously never studied out of Humez and Humez's masterful _Latina
pro populo_:

"Ursus in tabernam introiit et cerevisiam imperavit..."

(Okay, not exactly so-called "Golden Age" Latin -- but then most Latin that
one actually needs to read isn't.)

--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.

NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it.

Chuck Riggs

unread,
Aug 15, 2008, 5:58:46 AM8/15/08
to

Interesting. Was a caupona a tavern? Were there Roman barmaids, to
your knowledge?

Chuck Riggs

unread,
Aug 15, 2008, 6:01:57 AM8/15/08
to
On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 07:46:53 +0800, Robert Bannister
<rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:

>Chuck Riggs wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 08:39:56 +0800, Robert Bannister
>> <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>>> A few thousand years ago, you could have heard it in Roman bars too.
>>
>> John Dean said it is from a Latin expression, but are we sure the
>> Romans had bars? Somehow, I can't picture it.
>
>I tried Google images, "roman taverna", but the resulting pictures were
>not all that convincing. However, those of us who faithfully follow
>Lindsey Davis' "Falco" series are quite sure that Roman bars existed.


"Falco" rings a bell. Is it currently transmitted over one of the
British TV channels, do you know?

John Dean

unread,
Aug 15, 2008, 6:20:59 AM8/15/08
to

Hardly 'to my knowledge', Chuck. The Romans left here long before I was
born. But, yes, 'caupona' was one of the words for tavern and I'd bet there
were barpersons of both sexes but mainly of the fairer.

http://www.spqr.tv/domus/aedificia/caupona.html
--
John Dean
Oxford


John Dean

unread,
Aug 15, 2008, 6:25:13 AM8/15/08
to
Robert Bannister wrote:
> Chuck Riggs wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 08:39:56 +0800, Robert Bannister
>> <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>>> A few thousand years ago, you could have heard it in Roman bars too.
>>
>> John Dean said it is from a Latin expression, but are we sure the
>> Romans had bars? Somehow, I can't picture it.
>
> I tried Google images, "roman taverna", but the resulting pictures
> were not all that convincing.

The mix of languages within the same search phrase won't help. Nor will the
fact that the Romans called it a taberna rather than a taverna.
An image search on [roman taberna] without the quote marks gives, eg,
http://www.mmdtkw.org/ALRIVes0347Taberna.jpg
--
John Dean
Oxford

Chuck Riggs

unread,
Aug 15, 2008, 8:49:46 AM8/15/08
to

Unless the "Latina pro populo" contained some chapters on circuit or
communications theory or at least the latest and hottest news on
differential equations, it is unlikely I'd have picked it up in
college.

Don Aitken

unread,
Aug 15, 2008, 1:11:57 PM8/15/08
to
On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 11:20:59 +0100, "John Dean"
<john...@fraglineone.net> wrote:

The first identifiable barmaid in history is said to be a certain
Kababa of Kish, later queen of that city, and also the earliest
sovereign queen to be known by name. This was about 2800 BC.

--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"

Don Aitken

unread,
Aug 15, 2008, 1:11:58 PM8/15/08
to
On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 11:01:57 +0100, Chuck Riggs <chr...@eircom.net>
wrote:

It is a series of books, although it might make quite a good TV
series. The one I have, published in 1999, is the eleventh of the
series. Author's website at www.lindseydavis.co.uk

She is often described as the best writer of comic historical
detective stories, although it is not exactly an overcrowded field.

the Omrud

unread,
Aug 15, 2008, 2:04:28 PM8/15/08
to

Falco is produced as a radio serial by BBC Radio 4, and later
transmitted on BBC Radio 7 where it comes around every few months.

--
David

pritsy

unread,
Aug 15, 2008, 5:24:46 PM8/15/08
to

"Chuck Riggs" <chr...@eircom.net> wrote in message
news:2nkaa4p0bqdg7cs90...@4ax.com...

For a detailed description of a Caupona in Herculaneum, see
http://www.spqr.tv/domus/aedificia/caupona.html .


John Dean

unread,
Aug 15, 2008, 6:07:08 PM8/15/08
to

The famous Kish Kababa? Though let's not forget the lady in Genesis:

"And let it come to pass, that the damsel to whom I shall say, Let down thy
pitcher, I pray thee, that I may drink; and she shall say, Drink"
--
John Dean
Oxford


Chuck Riggs

unread,
Aug 16, 2008, 6:34:46 AM8/16/08
to
On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 11:20:59 +0100, "John Dean"
<john...@fraglineone.net> wrote:

If you suspect beyond a reasonable shadow of doubt that Roman barmaids
existed, John, isn't it correct to say they existed "to your
knowledge"?

>http://www.spqr.tv/domus/aedificia/caupona.html

Not the sort of "Clean, Well-lighted Place" Hemingway made appealing
to some of his readers, but it looks like a sexy sort of place to
spend an evening in.

Chuck Riggs

unread,
Aug 16, 2008, 6:46:41 AM8/16/08
to
On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 23:07:08 +0100, "John Dean"
<john...@fraglineone.net> wrote:

Kababa doesn't sound Italian. Where is or was Kish, where she is
reputed to have lived? Remember, I'm just an engineer, if its location
is common knowledge.
Was the Old Testament your source for this interesting tidbit?

>The famous Kish Kababa? Though let's not forget the lady in Genesis:
>
>"And let it come to pass, that the damsel to whom I shall say, Let down thy
>pitcher, I pray thee, that I may drink; and she shall say, Drink"

"Let down thy pitcher"? That makes no sense to my 21st century ears.

Chuck Riggs

unread,
Aug 16, 2008, 6:51:04 AM8/16/08
to
On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 16:24:46 -0500, "pritsy" <pri...@comcast.net>
wrote:

Thank you for the link, Pritsy.

Chuck Riggs

unread,
Aug 16, 2008, 7:19:32 AM8/16/08
to
On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 18:11:58 +0100, Don Aitken <don-a...@freeuk.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 11:01:57 +0100, Chuck Riggs <chr...@eircom.net>
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 07:46:53 +0800, Robert Bannister
>><rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Chuck Riggs wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 08:39:56 +0800, Robert Bannister
>>>> <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> A few thousand years ago, you could have heard it in Roman bars too.
>>>>
>>>> John Dean said it is from a Latin expression, but are we sure the
>>>> Romans had bars? Somehow, I can't picture it.
>>>
>>>I tried Google images, "roman taverna", but the resulting pictures were
>>>not all that convincing. However, those of us who faithfully follow
>>>Lindsey Davis' "Falco" series are quite sure that Roman bars existed.
>>
>>
>>"Falco" rings a bell. Is it currently transmitted over one of the
>>British TV channels, do you know?
>
>It is a series of books, although it might make quite a good TV
>series. The one I have, published in 1999, is the eleventh of the
>series. Author's website at www.lindseydavis.co.uk
>
>She is often described as the best writer of comic historical
>detective stories, although it is not exactly an overcrowded field.

From a quick look I think I'll like her style, woman or not, so I
ordered "Time to Depart" and one in the Falco series, "Three Hands in
the Fountain", from Amazon.

Chuck Riggs

unread,
Aug 16, 2008, 7:20:44 AM8/16/08
to

Out of range for me.

John Dean

unread,
Aug 16, 2008, 10:40:39 AM8/16/08
to

Let's hope you never become a Colorado Yankee at the Court of King James.
Unless it's a baseball reference.
--
John Dean
Oxford


pritsy

unread,
Aug 16, 2008, 12:57:19 PM8/16/08
to

"Chuck Riggs" <chr...@eircom.net> wrote in message
news:97cda4hl1np73del0...@4ax.com...

Chuck, Colleen McCullouch had included a fascinating glossary in each of
her "Masters of Rome" novels.
It includes much fascinating detail about republican Roman life, including
popular imprecations (Hi there, Rey!), descriptions of attire,
residences and shops, patrician family origins, etc..

I enjoyed her first in the series, "The First Man in Rome", very much, but
subsequent books were less enthralling, and I could not finish "Caesar's
Women".
The glossary is the same (or substantially the same) in all the ones I read
or tried to read.



CDB

unread,
Aug 16, 2008, 3:12:15 PM8/16/08
to
Chuck Riggs wrote:

[hangs about in bars]

> From a quick look I think I'll like her style, woman or not, so I
> ordered "Time to Depart" and one in the Falco series, "Three Hands
> in the Fountain", from Amazon.

Both those are Falco books, in fact. Lots of fun. You might enjoy
them more in order, starting with _The Silver Pigs_ and progressing
through the list (if you find you like them), because there is what
they call a "story arc" uniting the series.: each novel is an episode
in the life of MD Falco PI.

List here, if you haven't already gotten to it:
http://www.lindseydavis.co.uk/publications.htm .


the Omrud

unread,
Aug 16, 2008, 5:24:10 PM8/16/08
to

You can get them via BBC Radio Listen Again, over the Internet, for a
week after they are broadcast. Radio 7 is not available on FM - only
over various digital systems.

--
David

Chuck Riggs

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Aug 17, 2008, 6:19:39 AM8/17/08
to
On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 15:40:39 +0100, "John Dean"
<john...@fraglineone.net> wrote:

>Chuck Riggs wrote:

<snip>

>> "Let down thy pitcher"? That makes no sense to my 21st century ears.
>
>Let's hope you never become a Colorado Yankee at the Court of King James.
>Unless it's a baseball reference.

You whooshed me.

Chuck Riggs

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Aug 17, 2008, 6:31:44 AM8/17/08
to
On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 11:57:19 -0500, "pritsy" <pri...@comcast.net>
wrote:

You'd recommend "The First Man in Rome", then?

Chuck Riggs

unread,
Aug 17, 2008, 6:38:30 AM8/17/08
to
On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 21:24:10 GMT, the Omrud
<usenet...@gEXPUNGEmail.com> wrote:

>Chuck Riggs wrote:
>> On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 18:04:28 GMT, the Omrud
>> <usenet...@gEXPUNGEmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Falco is produced as a radio serial by BBC Radio 4, and later
>>> transmitted on BBC Radio 7 where it comes around every few months.
>>
>> Out of range for me.
>
>You can get them via BBC Radio Listen Again, over the Internet, for a
>week after they are broadcast. Radio 7 is not available on FM - only
>over various digital systems.

I've never tried receiving radio broadcasts over the Internet. Would
my 54 Mbps wireless access be fast enough to support a radio
broadcast?

Chuck Riggs

unread,
Aug 17, 2008, 6:48:52 AM8/17/08
to
On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 12:19:32 +0100, Chuck Riggs <chr...@eircom.net>
wrote:

That has a misogynist sound to it, which would mislead anyone who
doesn't know me. In addition to not disliking women, there are several
female writers I like: Agatha Christie, P.D. James and especially
Virginia Woolf are among my favourite writers.

John Dean

unread,
Aug 17, 2008, 6:57:34 AM8/17/08
to
Chuck Riggs wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 15:40:39 +0100, "John Dean"
> <john...@fraglineone.net> wrote:
>
>> Chuck Riggs wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>> "Let down thy pitcher"? That makes no sense to my 21st century ears.
>>
>> Let's hope you never become a Colorado Yankee at the Court of King
>> James. Unless it's a baseball reference.
>
> You whooshed me.

Which one? The quote is from the King James Version so I was wishing you
wouldn't emulate Mark Twain's hero and be a time traveller to a British
Court. The baseball thing was a play on 'pitcher'.
--
John Dean
Oxford


J. J. Lodder

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Aug 17, 2008, 7:25:40 AM8/17/08
to
Chuck Riggs <chr...@eircom.net> wrote:

Certainly, even an .11b connection at 11 Mbits/s is adequate,

Jan

Roland Hutchinson

unread,
Aug 17, 2008, 1:49:11 PM8/17/08
to
Chuck Riggs wrote:

No, it pretty much leaves off around the time of the discovery of the
infinitesimal calculus.


--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.

NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it.

Chuck Riggs

unread,
Aug 18, 2008, 6:29:30 AM8/18/08
to
On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 11:57:34 +0100, "John Dean"
<john...@fraglineone.net> wrote:

>Chuck Riggs wrote:
>> On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 15:40:39 +0100, "John Dean"
>> <john...@fraglineone.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Chuck Riggs wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> "Let down thy pitcher"? That makes no sense to my 21st century ears.
>>>
>>> Let's hope you never become a Colorado Yankee at the Court of King
>>> James. Unless it's a baseball reference.
>>
>> You whooshed me.
>
>Which one? The quote is from the King James Version so I was wishing you
>wouldn't emulate Mark Twain's hero and be a time traveller to a British
>Court. The baseball thing was a play on 'pitcher'.

With your help, I understand your allusions. I didn't remember the bit
from the KJV of the Bible. You were right, of course, for Google gave
me:

"And let it come to pass, that the damsel to whom I shall say, Let
down thy pitcher, I pray thee, that I may drink; and she shall say,

Drink, and I will give thy camels drink also: let the same be she that
thou hast appointed for thy servant Isaac; and thereby shall I know
that thou hast showed kindness unto my master."

Even if it is in my favourite version, it seems like a strange English
phrase. In essence, all he is saying is "Let me drink from your
pitcher", innit? What's this "let down" business, I wonder?

Chuck Riggs

unread,
Aug 18, 2008, 6:52:54 AM8/18/08
to
On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 13:49:11 -0400, Roland Hutchinson
<my.sp...@verizon.net> wrote:

A time that predates the dispute over whether to credit Leibniz or
Newton for the invention of differential calculus:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz_and_Newton_calculus_controversy

While trying to pin down a date for when mathematicians started
throwing around those pesky deltas in infinitesimal calculus, I
realized I'd be on the Internet all day before I finished this post.
Sadly, I have to move on.

LFS

unread,
Aug 18, 2008, 7:02:17 AM8/18/08
to

She would no doubt have been carrying the pitcher on her shoulder or
even her head - I've googled unsuccessfully for an appropriate image.

--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Lanarcam

unread,
Aug 18, 2008, 7:06:19 AM8/18/08
to
LFS wrote:
>>
>> "And let it come to pass, that the damsel to whom I shall say, Let
>> down thy pitcher, I pray thee, that I may drink; and she shall say,
>> Drink, and I will give thy camels drink also: let the same be she that
>> thou hast appointed for thy servant Isaac; and thereby shall I know
>> that thou hast showed kindness unto my master."
>>
>> Even if it is in my favourite version, it seems like a strange English
>> phrase. In essence, all he is saying is "Let me drink from your
>> pitcher", innit? What's this "let down" business, I wonder?
>
> She would no doubt have been carrying the pitcher on her shoulder or
> even her head - I've googled unsuccessfully for an appropriate image.

Did you mean that:

<http://www.trinkwasser.ch/fr/html/bildergallerie/frameset.htm?pages/wassertragen.htm~RightFrame>

LFS

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Aug 18, 2008, 7:19:42 AM8/18/08
to

Indeed, that'll do nicely, than you.

Wood Avens

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Aug 18, 2008, 7:25:30 AM8/18/08
to
On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 12:02:17 +0100, LFS
<la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:

>Chuck Riggs wrote:
>>
>> "And let it come to pass, that the damsel to whom I shall say, Let
>> down thy pitcher, I pray thee, that I may drink; and she shall say,
>> Drink, and I will give thy camels drink also: let the same be she that
>> thou hast appointed for thy servant Isaac; and thereby shall I know
>> that thou hast showed kindness unto my master."
>>
>> Even if it is in my favourite version, it seems like a strange English
>> phrase. In essence, all he is saying is "Let me drink from your
>> pitcher", innit? What's this "let down" business, I wonder?
>
>She would no doubt have been carrying the pitcher on her shoulder or
>even her head - I've googled unsuccessfully for an appropriate image.

We saw one the other day in the Pre-Raphaelite gallery in the
Ashmolean - an Egyptian lass: in the rubric, the painter complained
abut the difficulty in getting her to pose for him. If I could
remember which painter it was I'd try to find an image. I'm pretty
sure she carried the water-container on her shoulder.

--

Katy Jennison

spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @

musika

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Aug 18, 2008, 7:40:37 AM8/18/08
to

Let down your pitcher into the well and get me some water?

--
Ray
UK


LFS

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Aug 18, 2008, 8:16:20 AM8/18/08
to

Yes, I remember that and I can't remember the painter either. But
another poster has come to the rescue.

John Dean

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Aug 18, 2008, 12:36:36 PM8/18/08
to

Nah, just "put it down from offa your head / shoulder"
As the next verse says:

"And it came to pass, before he had done speaking, that, behold, Rebekah
came out, who was born to Bethuel, son of Milcah, the wife of Nahor,
Abraham's brother, with her pitcher upon her shoulder."

--
John Dean
Oxford


John Dean

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Aug 18, 2008, 12:37:26 PM8/18/08
to

As it says in the NIV version:

"May it be that when I say to a girl, 'Please let down your jar that I may
have a drink,' and she says, 'Drink, and I'll water your camels too' "
--
John Dean
Oxford


Richard Bollard

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Aug 18, 2008, 11:30:16 PM8/18/08
to
On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 07:46:53 +0800, Robert Bannister
<rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:

>Chuck Riggs wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 08:39:56 +0800, Robert Bannister
>> <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>>> A few thousand years ago, you could have heard it in Roman bars too.
>>
>> John Dean said it is from a Latin expression, but are we sure the
>> Romans had bars? Somehow, I can't picture it.
>

>I tried Google images, "roman taverna", but the resulting pictures were
>not all that convincing. However, those of us who faithfully follow
>Lindsey Davis' "Falco" series are quite sure that Roman bars existed.

I remember from "I Clavdivs" or "Claudius the God" that he bought his
wine from some species of bottle-o and there was also mention of some
legislation forcing them to sell food to prevent drunken Roman yoof
rampaging through the streets at night.
--
Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

Chuck Riggs

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Aug 19, 2008, 9:47:51 AM8/19/08
to
On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 12:02:17 +0100, LFS
<la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:

That makes sense, Laura. Now I can rest easy.

Chuck Riggs

unread,
Aug 19, 2008, 9:53:24 AM8/19/08
to
On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 17:37:26 +0100, "John Dean"
<john...@fraglineone.net> wrote:

"Damsel" sounds so much more alluring. I'll stick with the KJV, thank
you very much.

Robin Bignall

unread,
Aug 19, 2008, 5:19:43 PM8/19/08
to

So, that's at least one thing the Romans did for Britain.
--
Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

Richard Bollard

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Aug 21, 2008, 6:51:51 PM8/21/08
to

No, that was "Oy! Chavdivs".

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