"Here's mud in your eye" no longer seems to be the fashionable toast it was when Pinewood studios were in their prime. Whence?
Maybe we can blame the automobile. Fewer people today had impromptu races while getting around on horses in their youth.
Second one to finish gets mud in an eye flung by the hooves of the lead horse.
-- --------------------------------------------- Richard Maurer To reply, remove half Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (Or in an octopus's garden, in the shade.)
>>> "Here's mud in your eye" no longer seems to be the fashionable >>> toast it was when Pinewood studios were in their prime. >>> Whence? >>> The usual suspects suggest it began as rhyming sling for a >>> (neck)tie. That seems (a) improbable and (b) unlikely to lead to an >>> alcoholic toast. >>> I ask again, "Whence?"
>> Like 'plonk' and 'toodleoo', it is an English shortening and >> accommodation of the traditional Alsatian toast "Ein Prosit der >> Gemütlichkeit"
> I like French toast, but I don't believe I've ever tried Alsatian > toast....r
Isabella Z wrote: > On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 22:22:49 +0200, t...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) > wrote: >> mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote: >>> On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:56:47 +0200, t...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) >>> wrote: >>>> Fred Springer <fred.sprin...@ntlworld.com> wrote: > ... >>>> 1) "mud's in your eye" (with an "s) as a noun meaning necktie, from >>>> rhyming slang. With or without an "s," I don't find any examples of >>>> this particular necktie meaning in Google Books. Cassell's gives >>>> it a
>>> They wore a lot of neckties in the trenches in WWI?
>> Let's take this chronologically. Some time around 1920, people >> started saying "Here's mud in your eye" as a toast, for unknown >> reasons (any connection to WWI is flimsy). After that saying was >> established, a few folks who were into rhyming slang spoke of "a >> mud's in your eye" to mean "a necktie."
> Fancy seeing a thread here and now concerning this particular > phrase... I wish John had started it about two months ago, when I went > (almost) crazy looking it up, as it appeared in a 1938 British book I > was translating.
Désolé. I do apologise for being tardy. Is there some other thread I could start in the next few days by way of compensation? -- John Dean Oxford
Isabella Z wrote: > On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:25:49 +0200, t...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) > wrote: >> Gunga Din <n...@none.com> wrote: >>> "John Dean" <john-d...@fraglineone.net> wrote in message >>> news:6gdg8qFfh2tcU1@mid.individual.net... >>>> "Here's mud in your eye" no longer seems to be the fashionable >>>> toast it was when Pinewood studios were in their prime. >>>> Whence? >>>> The usual suspects suggest it began as rhyming sling for a >>>> (neck)tie. That seems (a) improbable and (b) unlikely to lead to >>>> an alcoholic toast. >>>> I ask again, "Whence?"
>>> Like 'plonk' and 'toodleoo', it is an English shortening and >>> accommodation of the traditional Alsatian toast "Ein Prosit der >>> Gemütlichkeit"
>> I like that! "Gemütlichkeit" has the right similarity to "mud in your >> eye." All along, I vaguely assumed that "mud in your eye" was an >> Anglicization of some foreign toast, but I didn't know which.
> You mean the same phenomenon by which "Enfanta de Castilla" turned > into "Elephant and Castle"? Interesting! > Ciao,
The only 'infanta' the Brits took any notice of had nothing to do with Castile, and the only Castilian princess who impinged on our consciousness wasn't an infanta. And the name has only been used since the mid-18th Century anyway. As we say hereabouts, God Encompasseth Us. -- John Dean Oxford
<john-d...@fraglineone.net> wrote: >Isabella Z wrote: >> Fancy seeing a thread here and now concerning this particular >> phrase... I wish John had started it about two months ago, when I went >> (almost) crazy looking it up, as it appeared in a 1938 British book I >> was translating.
>Désolé. I do apologise for being tardy. Is there some other thread I could >start in the next few days by way of compensation?
Oh! How gentlemanly of you! Well, I do have a little problem with "blue-sky ideas" (but I haven't researched it much yet!), and also I'd like to know what you make of this passage and especially the part between **:
"Bit maudlin tonight, are we, John?" he asked himself out loud. Then gave a little chuckle, knowing he could maudle for Scotland, *gold medal a nap* at the Grump Olympics.
(Well, the general meaning and the single words are clear. It's the construction that baffles me a bit, and also the fact that I don't see napping as a specialty at the "Grump" Olympics.) (The John in question is DI John Rebus, should anyone happen to be familiar with the character.) Thanks a lot...! Ciao, -- Isa Work like you don't need money, Love like you've never been hurt, And dance like no one's watching
<john-d...@fraglineone.net> wrote: >Isabella Z wrote: ... >> You mean the same phenomenon by which "Enfanta de Castilla" turned >> into "Elephant and Castle"? Interesting! >> Ciao,
My, this is great. This is more than enough compensation for being late elsewhere. (Shame about the Post That Already Got Sent!) Thanks again, Ciao -- Isa Work like you don't need money, Love like you've never been hurt, And dance like no one's watching
"Isabella Z" <isabella.z...@METTILEPATtinE.it> wrote :
> "Bit maudlin tonight, are we, John?" he asked himself out loud. Then > gave a little chuckle, knowing he could maudle for Scotland, *gold > medal a nap* at the Grump Olympics.
> (Well, the general meaning and the single words are clear. It's the > construction that baffles me a bit, and also the fact that I don't see > napping as a specialty at the "Grump" Olympics.) > (The John in question is DI John Rebus, should anyone happen to be > familiar with the character.) > Thanks a lot...!
"Nap", here, is a horse-racing expression which describes a horse which is the runaway favourite to win a race. I rather like the cod backformation of maudle, though I dare say it's been done before. Rebus is a real grump, although it's occasionally struck me that someone with such insight into his melancholy is nowhere near as badly off as one without.
Philip Eden wrote: > "Isabella Z" <isabella.z...@METTILEPATtinE.it> wrote : >> "Bit maudlin tonight, are we, John?" he asked himself out loud. Then >> gave a little chuckle, knowing he could maudle for Scotland, *gold >> medal a nap* at the Grump Olympics.
>> (Well, the general meaning and the single words are clear. It's the >> construction that baffles me a bit, and also the fact that I don't see >> napping as a specialty at the "Grump" Olympics.) >> (The John in question is DI John Rebus, should anyone happen to be >> familiar with the character.) >> Thanks a lot...!
"to maudle" is so obscure and obsolete that I'd never seen it before.
> "Nap", here, is a horse-racing expression which describes a horse > which is the runaway favourite to win a race. I rather like the > cod backformation of maudle, though I dare say it's been done > before. Rebus is a real grump, although it's occasionally struck > me that someone with such insight into his melancholy is nowhere > near as badly off as one without.
<philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom> wrote: >"Isabella Z" <isabella.z...@METTILEPATtinE.it> wrote : >> "Bit maudlin tonight, are we, John?" he asked himself out loud. Then >> gave a little chuckle, knowing he could maudle for Scotland, *gold >> medal a nap* at the Grump Olympics.
>> (Well, the general meaning and the single words are clear.
(Yeah, right!)
>"Nap", here, is a horse-racing expression which describes a horse >which is the runaway favourite to win a race.
Of bloody course. NOW it all makes sense, and thanks a lot for that. I mean it. Good for my and my translation.
>I rather like the >cod backformation of maudle, though I dare say it's been done >before.
Yes, I like that too, and it's one of the beauties of English that it can do that.
>Rebus is a real grump, although it's occasionally struck >me that someone with such insight into his melancholy is nowhere >near as badly off as one without.
Though it seems now, melancholy and his insight into it are the only company he has, which is rather sad. I like him because he's so real, and yet I keep hoping for a spot of happiness for him. Thanks again! Ciao, -- Isa Work like you don't need money, Love like you've never been hurt, And dance like no one's watching
>> "Here's mud in your eye" no longer seems to be the fashionable toast it >> was when Pinewood studios were in their prime. >> Whence? >> The usual suspects suggest it began as rhyming sling for a (neck)tie. That >> seems (a) improbable and (b) unlikely to lead to an alcoholic toast. >> I ask again, "Whence?" >> -- >Longman's Dictionary of English Idioms suggests a WW1 origin, >in the trenches. I suppose there was plenty of alcohol available >there, wasn't there?
Exactly, for it was during the Roaring Twenties in America that booze flowed, prohibited or not. From the many films I've watched portraying that era, I associate the phrase with the 1920s. --
>> >> Cassell's slang dictionary says that "mud in your eye" is rhyming slang >> >> for eye,
>> >You mean "necktie" there. My copy of Cassell's has two entries:
>> >1) "mud's in your eye" (with an "s) as a noun meaning necktie, from >> >rhyming slang. With or without an "s," I don't find any examples of >> >this particular necktie meaning in Google Books. Cassell's gives it a
>> They wore a lot of neckties in the trenches in WWI?
>Let's take this chronologically. Some time around 1920, people started >saying "Here's mud in your eye" as a toast, for unknown reasons (any >connection to WWI is flimsy). After that saying was established, a few >folks who were into rhyming slang spoke of "a mud's in your eye" to mean >"a necktie."
But was rhyming slang popular in 1920s America? I didn't think so. --
On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 23:28:24 +0100, "Gunga Din" <n...@none.com> wrote:
>"John Dean" <john-d...@fraglineone.net> wrote in message >news:6gdg8qFfh2tcU1@mid.individual.net... >> "Here's mud in your eye" no longer seems to be the fashionable toast it >> was when Pinewood studios were in their prime. >> Whence? >> The usual suspects suggest it began as rhyming sling for a (neck)tie. That >> seems (a) improbable and (b) unlikely to lead to an alcoholic toast. >> I ask again, "Whence?" >> -- >> John Dean >> Oxford
>Like 'plonk' and 'toodleoo', it is an English shortening and accommodation >of the traditional Alsatian toast "Ein Prosit der Gemütlichkeit"
So that must be where "Prosit!" comes from, which I've heard many times in German bars. --
Isabella Z wrote: > On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:05:08 +0100, "Philip Eden" > <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom> wrote: >> "Isabella Z" <isabella.z...@METTILEPATtinE.it> wrote : >>> "Bit maudlin tonight, are we, John?" he asked himself out loud. Then >>> gave a little chuckle, knowing he could maudle for Scotland, *gold >>> medal a nap* at the Grump Olympics.
>>> (Well, the general meaning and the single words are clear.
> (Yeah, right!)
>> "Nap", here, is a horse-racing expression which describes a horse >> which is the runaway favourite to win a race.
> Of bloody course. NOW it all makes sense, and thanks a lot for that. I > mean it. Good for my and my translation.
Uh huh. It looks at first as if "gold medal" has been verbed but the construction is "... [a] gold medal [would be a] nap ..." ie the medal would be a certainty. I would disagree that 'nap' in horse racing means a runaway favourite. In the parlance of the tipsters, they pick their selections for the card at a meeting and designate one horse as the 'best bet'. This is their 'nap' and may well not be a favourite at all. In the league tables of newspaper tipsters, they are usually judged on their 'nap' selections so it's to their advantage to get the occasional nap at longer odds than the favourite. The expression probably comes from the card game of Nap where a 'nap' hand' takes all tricks. The OED cites for the tipsters' 'nap' shows the ideas:
"1895 Starting Price 30 Mar. 1/2 Our 'Outsider's' nap of Docker for the Hainton Stakes. 1926 Westm. Gaz. 20 July 1/4 The Whip, who yesterday gave Lightstep, Nap (won 3-1),+continues to hold a strong lead in Naps over the selections of the other racing critics. 1927 W. E. Collinson Contemp. Eng. 30 He stars this one, and the horse so starred is the nap selection. 1937 E. Rickman On & off Racecourse ix. 195 Every racing writer gives a single 'nap' or starred selection each day. It is his idea of the most promising bet the programme affords. 1960 Which? Mar. 60/1 The figures in the table are based on the correspondent's 'nap' selection-the word comes from a card game-for each day's racing, the horse that he thinks is the best bet."
>> I rather like the >> cod backformation of maudle, though I dare say it's been done >> before.
> Yes, I like that too, and it's one of the beauties of English that it > can do that.
It's real enough in OED though it *was* originally a back formation:
"1706 Phillips (ed. Kersey), To Maudle, to besot, or put out of Order, as drinking strong Liquors does in a Morning. Ibid., Maudlin, maudled, half drunk. 1826 Examiner 124/1 Leaving John Bull to suck his thumbs, and maudle about 'his good Queen Anne'."
>> Rebus is a real grump, although it's occasionally struck >> me that someone with such insight into his melancholy is nowhere >> near as badly off as one without.
> Though it seems now, melancholy and his insight into it are the only > company he has, which is rather sad. I like him because he's so real, > and yet I keep hoping for a spot of happiness for him.
Being a grump is becoming something of a badge of honour. The TV show "Grumpy Old Men" where elderly slebs complain fetchingly of the trials of modern life is into its 3rd or 4th series and has spawned '"Grumpy Old Women" which has, in its turn, become a travelling stage show. Vive les grognards! -- John Dean Oxford
Isabella Z wrote: > On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:10:45 +0100, "John Dean" > <john-d...@fraglineone.net> wrote: >> Isabella Z wrote: >>> Fancy seeing a thread here and now concerning this particular >>> phrase... I wish John had started it about two months ago, when I >>> went (almost) crazy looking it up, as it appeared in a 1938 British >>> book I was translating.
>> Désolé. I do apologise for being tardy. Is there some other thread I >> could start in the next few days by way of compensation?
> Oh! How gentlemanly of you! Well, I do have a little problem with > "blue-sky ideas" (but I haven't researched it much yet!)
I won't spoil your fun (unless you insist) but I will say that "blue sky" ideas seemed to follow on, in the business world, from "green field" ideas. -- John Dean Oxford
Chuck Riggs wrote: > On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 23:28:24 +0100, "Gunga Din" <n...@none.com> wrote:
>> "John Dean" <john-d...@fraglineone.net> wrote in message >> news:6gdg8qFfh2tcU1@mid.individual.net... >>> "Here's mud in your eye" no longer seems to be the fashionable >>> toast it was when Pinewood studios were in their prime. >>> Whence?
>> Like 'plonk' and 'toodleoo', it is an English shortening and >> accommodation of the traditional Alsatian toast "Ein Prosit der >> Gemütlichkeit"
> So that must be where "Prosit!" comes from, which I've heard many > times in German bars.
'Prosit' is pretty much the standard German for "Cheers" though it's used in other expressions too. It may interest you to know it derives from Latin "may it benefit [you]". -- John Dean Oxford
John Dean wrote: > Isabella Z wrote: >> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:05:08 +0100, "Philip Eden" >> <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom> wrote: >>> "Isabella Z" <isabella.z...@METTILEPATtinE.it> wrote : >>>> "Bit maudlin tonight, are we, John?" he asked himself out loud. >>>> Then gave a little chuckle, knowing he could maudle for >>>> Scotland, *gold medal a nap* at the Grump Olympics.
>>>> (Well, the general meaning and the single words are clear.
>> (Yeah, right!)
>>> "Nap", here, is a horse-racing expression which describes a horse >>> which is the runaway favourite to win a race.
>> Of bloody course. NOW it all makes sense, and thanks a lot for >> that. I mean it. Good for my and my translation.
> Uh huh. It looks at first as if "gold medal" has been verbed but the > construction is "... [a] gold medal [would be a] nap ..." ie the > medal would be a certainty. I would disagree that 'nap' in horse > racing means a runaway favourite. In the parlance of the tipsters, > they pick their selections for the card at a meeting and designate > one horse as the 'best bet'. This is their 'nap' and may well not > be a favourite at all. In the league tables of newspaper tipsters, > they are usually judged on their 'nap' selections so it's to their > advantage to get the occasional nap at longer odds than the > favourite. The expression probably comes from the card game of Nap > where a 'nap' hand' takes all tricks. The OED cites for the > tipsters' 'nap' shows the ideas:
> "1895 Starting Price 30 Mar. 1/2 Our 'Outsider's' nap of Docker for > the Hainton Stakes. 1926 Westm. Gaz. 20 July 1/4 The Whip, who > yesterday gave Lightstep, Nap (won 3-1),+continues to hold a strong > lead in Naps over the selections of the other racing critics. 1927 > W. E. Collinson Contemp. Eng. 30 He stars this one, and the horse > so starred is the nap selection. 1937 E. Rickman On & off > Racecourse ix. 195 Every racing writer gives a single 'nap' or > starred selection each day. It is his idea of the most promising > bet the programme affords. 1960 Which? Mar. 60/1 The figures in > the table are based on the correspondent's 'nap' selection-the word > comes from a card game-for each day's racing, the horse that he > thinks is the best bet."
>>> I rather like the >>> cod backformation of maudle, though I dare say it's been done >>> before.
>> Yes, I like that too, and it's one of the beauties of English that >> it can do that.
> It's real enough in OED though it *was* originally a back formation:
> "1706 Phillips (ed. Kersey), To Maudle, to besot, or put out of > Order, as drinking strong Liquors does in a Morning. Ibid., > Maudlin, maudled, half drunk. 1826 Examiner 124/1 Leaving John > Bull to suck his thumbs, and maudle about 'his good Queen Anne'."
>>> Rebus is a real grump, although it's occasionally struck >>> me that someone with such insight into his melancholy is nowhere >>> near as badly off as one without.
>> Though it seems now, melancholy and his insight into it are the >> only company he has, which is rather sad. I like him because he's >> so real, and yet I keep hoping for a spot of happiness for him.
> Being a grump is becoming something of a badge of honour. The TV > show "Grumpy Old Men" where elderly slebs complain fetchingly of > the trials of modern life is into its 3rd or 4th series and has > spawned '"Grumpy Old Women" which has, in its turn, become a > travelling stage show. Vive les grognards!
In the middle-late 1960s I had a subscription to the monthly magazine, "GRUMP". It included, as I remember it, articles by well-known grumps who were quite articulate in expressing their dismay and/or irritation at government activities in particular, but quite a spread of offensive features of modern life. My collection is complete but misplaced. I do have the button proclaiming, "Watch it—I'm a GRUMP".
Chuck Riggs wrote: > On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 23:28:24 +0100, "Gunga Din" <n...@none.com> wrote:
>> "John Dean" <john-d...@fraglineone.net> wrote in message >> news:6gdg8qFfh2tcU1@mid.individual.net... >>> "Here's mud in your eye" no longer seems to be the fashionable toast it >>> was when Pinewood studios were in their prime. >>> Whence? >>> The usual suspects suggest it began as rhyming sling for a (neck)tie. That >>> seems (a) improbable and (b) unlikely to lead to an alcoholic toast. >>> I ask again, "Whence?" >>> -- >>> John Dean >>> Oxford
>> Like 'plonk' and 'toodleoo', it is an English shortening and accommodation >> of the traditional Alsatian toast "Ein Prosit der Gemütlichkeit"
> So that must be where "Prosit!" comes from, which I've heard many > times in German bars.
A few thousand years ago, you could have heard it in Roman bars too.
<john-d...@fraglineone.net> wrote: >Isabella Z wrote: >> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:10:45 +0100, "John Dean" >> <john-d...@fraglineone.net> wrote: ... >>> Is there some other thread I >>> could start in the next few days by way of compensation? >> Oh! How gentlemanly of you! Well, I do have a little problem with >> "blue-sky ideas" (but I haven't researched it much yet!) >I won't spoil your fun (unless you insist) but I will say that "blue sky" >ideas seemed to follow on, in the business world, from "green field" ideas.
The Oxford University Press on line provided help re. blue-sky, and of course I had a look into greenfield too, since you'd piqued my curiosity. There indeed seems to be a connection here, like a blue-sky idea is a greenfield project that has lost all touch with reality. A bit like the Strait of Messina Bridge, I'd say (or is that a blue-sea idea?) Thanks, John. Ciao, -- Isa Work like you don't need money, Love like you've never been hurt, And dance like no one's watching
<john-d...@fraglineone.net> wrote: >Isabella Z wrote: >> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:05:08 +0100, "Philip Eden" >> <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom> wrote: >>> "Isabella Z" <isabella.z...@METTILEPATtinE.it> wrote : >>>> "Bit maudlin tonight, are we, John?" he asked himself out loud. Then >>>> gave a little chuckle, knowing he could maudle for Scotland, *gold >>>> medal a nap* at the Grump Olympics. ... >>> "Nap", here, is a horse-racing expression which describes a horse >>> which is the runaway favourite to win a race.
>> Of bloody course. NOW it all makes sense...
You, again! :-)
>Uh huh. It looks at first as if "gold medal" has been verbed but the >construction is "... [a] gold medal [would be a] nap ..."
I see, a sort of ablative absolute then. (Though I liked the idea of "gold-medalling a nap"...) The idea is that the gold medal would be a walkover, right...? (Thanks for all the rest, too.)
>>> Rebus is a real grump... >Being a grump is becoming something of a badge of honour. The TV show >"Grumpy Old Men" where elderly slebs complain fetchingly of the trials of >modern life is into its 3rd or 4th series and has spawned '"Grumpy Old >Women" which has, in its turn, become a travelling stage show. Vive les >grognards!
This adds substance to my choice of an Italian equivalent. *That* one I've nailed, I think. Ciao, -- Isa Work like you don't need money, Love like you've never been hurt, And dance like no one's watching
> 'Prosit' is pretty much the standard German for "Cheers" though > it's used in other expressions too. It may interest you to know it > derives from Latin "may it benefit [you]".
Ah, yes. I remember seeing (a photo of) a Pompeian graffito, with a picture of a nice little ass and the motto LABORA ASELLE QVOMODO EGO LABORAVI ET PRODERIT TIBI: "Work, little donkey, as I have worked, and it will do you good." Interesting that there is a "d" before forms of "-esse" beginning with vowels but no doubling of initial consonants (*prossit). Thought it might be a matter of vowel length, but my dictionary says the "o" is long in all forms.
>> > 1) "mud's in your eye" (with an "s) as a noun meaning necktie, from >> > rhyming slang. With or without an "s," I don't find any examples of >> > this particular necktie meaning in Google Books. Cassell's gives it a >> > final date of 1940s. (It gives it a starting date *earlier* than the >> > toast, which makes no sense.)
>> Odd -- we must have different editions, because my copy gives it as "mud >> in your eye", followed by [1940s+] which according to the system adopted >> in that work means first used in the 1940s, and still in use now. Can't >> say I've ever heard it myself, but I've never been much exposed to >> rhyming slang. I've heard the toast quite a lot, but it's rather dated now.
>> My edition of Cassell's is the second, published 2005.
>Mine is marked "First published 1998, First paperback edition 2000" so >yours is newer. The entry in mine for "mud's in your eye" said [late >19C-1940s]. So between my edition and yours, they dropped the 19th >century and added a plus to the 1940s.
>Anyway, I'm a convert to the "gemütlichkeit" theory.
Yes, that seems a more likely scenario than a reference to soldiers having mud in their eyes. Who'd drink to that? --
<isabella.z...@METTILEPATtinE.it> wrote: >On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 00:36:18 +0100, "John Dean" ><john-d...@fraglineone.net> wrote: >>Isabella Z wrote: >>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:10:45 +0100, "John Dean" >>> <john-d...@fraglineone.net> wrote: >... >>>> Is there some other thread I >>>> could start in the next few days by way of compensation?
>>> Oh! How gentlemanly of you! Well, I do have a little problem with >>> "blue-sky ideas" (but I haven't researched it much yet!)
>>I won't spoil your fun (unless you insist) but I will say that "blue sky" >>ideas seemed to follow on, in the business world, from "green field" ideas.
>The Oxford University Press on line provided help re. blue-sky, and of >course I had a look into greenfield too, since you'd piqued my >curiosity. There indeed seems to be a connection here, like a blue-sky >idea is a greenfield project that has lost all touch with reality. A >bit like the Strait of Messina Bridge, I'd say (or is that a blue-sea >idea?)
In the US, "blue-sky" thinking is out-of-the-box thinking...'way out-of-the-box. An executive might charge his underlings to "blue-sky this concept" meaning "come up with any possible idea, problem, solution, technique, plan, etc that can even remotely be considered applicable". It opens the discussion to suggestions that might not make sense on their own, but might lead to modifications or elaboration that do make sense.
<robb...@bigpond.com> wrote: >Chuck Riggs wrote: >> On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 23:28:24 +0100, "Gunga Din" <n...@none.com> wrote:
>>> "John Dean" <john-d...@fraglineone.net> wrote in message >>> news:6gdg8qFfh2tcU1@mid.individual.net... >>>> "Here's mud in your eye" no longer seems to be the fashionable toast it >>>> was when Pinewood studios were in their prime. >>>> Whence? >>>> The usual suspects suggest it began as rhyming sling for a (neck)tie. That >>>> seems (a) improbable and (b) unlikely to lead to an alcoholic toast. >>>> I ask again, "Whence?" >>>> -- >>>> John Dean >>>> Oxford
>>> Like 'plonk' and 'toodleoo', it is an English shortening and accommodation >>> of the traditional Alsatian toast "Ein Prosit der Gemütlichkeit"
>> So that must be where "Prosit!" comes from, which I've heard many >> times in German bars.
>A few thousand years ago, you could have heard it in Roman bars too.
John Dean said it is from a Latin expression, but are we sure the Romans had bars? Somehow, I can't picture it. --
Chuck Riggs wrote: > On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 08:39:56 +0800, Robert Bannister > <robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>> Chuck Riggs wrote: >>> On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 23:28:24 +0100, "Gunga Din" <n...@none.com> >>> wrote:
>>>> "John Dean" <john-d...@fraglineone.net> wrote in message >>>> news:6gdg8qFfh2tcU1@mid.individual.net... >>>>> "Here's mud in your eye" no longer seems to be the fashionable >>>>> toast it was when Pinewood studios were in their prime. >>>>> Whence? >>>>> The usual suspects suggest it began as rhyming sling for a >>>>> (neck)tie. That seems (a) improbable and (b) unlikely to lead to >>>>> an alcoholic toast. >>>>> I ask again, "Whence?" >>>>> --
>>>> Like 'plonk' and 'toodleoo', it is an English shortening and >>>> accommodation of the traditional Alsatian toast "Ein Prosit der >>>> Gemütlichkeit"
>>> So that must be where "Prosit!" comes from, which I've heard many >>> times in German bars.
>> A few thousand years ago, you could have heard it in Roman bars too.
> John Dean said it is from a Latin expression, but are we sure the > Romans had bars? Somehow, I can't picture it.
Well, the Romans certainly had several words for 'tavern' including the one that eventually became English 'tavern'. And "A good wine needs no bush" is said to derive from the Roman custom of hanging vine leaves outside the caupona. -- John Dean Oxford
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