> Skitt <skit...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Peter Young wrote:
>>> R H Draney wrote:
>>>> Peter Duncanson [BrE]" filted:
>>>>> "Iceland" is the English form of the Icelandic "Island".
>>>>> And according to Wikip "Island" is pronounced as "eeslant".
>>>>> According to Google Translate:
>>>>> (English) Icelander = (Icelandic) slendingur
>>>> Google Translate has some issues in this area:
^^^^^^
>>> Oy!
>> Do you have an issue with that?
> You won't find out till the next issue.
"the Omrud" wrote in message news:F_Lns.253900$9W6.156249@fx08.am4...
> On 11/11/2012 10:49, Guy Barry wrote:
> > I don't know of another one that adds "-onian" directly to the name,
> > although "Aberdeen" forms "Aberdonian". But then there aren't many
> > British cities with monosyllabic names. I believe Hull forms
> > "Hullensian" - what about York?
> "Eborian", at a guess.
According to this site, it's rather disappointingly "Yorkers" (which I thought was a type of ball bowled in cricket):
It also says that people from (Kingston upon) Hull are "Kingstonians". Leeds has "Leodensians" or "Loiners".
How many of these terms are actually used in practice? I get the feeling that they're a bit like collective nouns - some people delight in knowing all the correct terms, but they're not widely understood.
On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 07:43:37 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>Are these place names recognized by the US Post Office? I thought that >long ago (1880s?) the Post Office had put an end to many duplicate >names by saying that it would not deliver mail to places for which the >name occurred more than once in any state. Unless, of course, they >increased the number of states to 214+ when I wasxn't paying attention
It's not my impression that the US Post Office pays any attention at
all to the city name. The envelope goes to where the ZIP code says it
is to go. If the mail is sorted electronically, you could address a
letter to me using any city in writing, but it would arrive in my box
if the ZIP+4 code was correct for my house.
> On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 07:43:37 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>> Are these place names recognized by the US Post Office? I thought that
>> long ago (1880s?) the Post Office had put an end to many duplicate
>> names by saying that it would not deliver mail to places for which the
>> name occurred more than once in any state. Unless, of course, they
>> increased the number of states to 214+ when I wasxn't paying attention
> It's not my impression that the US Post Office pays any attention at
> all to the city name. The envelope goes to where the ZIP code says it
> is to go. If the mail is sorted electronically, you could address a
> letter to me using any city in writing, but it would arrive in my box
> if the ZIP+4 code was correct for my house.
No doubt, but zip codes didn't exist when the Post Office decided that it didn't like duplicate names.
>>>> On 2012-11-11 03:10:05 +0000, Guy Barry said:
>>>>> Not usually a productive one, though. Other countries in "-land" don't
>>>>> have corresponding forms in "-ic" (with the exception of "Greenlandic",
>>>>> although I think this is mainly used to refer to the language). We
>>>>> have England/English, Scotland/Scottish, Ireland/Irish,
>>>>> Finland/Finnish, Poland/Polish, so on those grounds I'd expect "Icish".
>>>>> (Not sure where "Switzerland/Swiss" fits in though.)
>>>> You seem to be wanting a logical and consistent system, but there is no
>>>> reason to expect one. No committee ever sat down and decided that all
>>>> the countries whose names ended in "land" would makie their adjectives
>>>> by changing "land" to 'ish".
>>> I think it's generally true for European countries, though.
>> Holland (if you regard that as the name of a country)? The Netherlands?
>> I note, incidentally, that you live in a city that forms its adjective
>> in a way no other British city (to my knowledge) does.
>> They reelect the House of Representatives every two years. A bit often >> for my taste, but there it is.
>As I understand it, the idea is that the House is responsive to >whatever is important to the people right now, while the Senate, one
>third of which is elected every two years, is expected to be more >stable and provide a longer-term view. Also recall that in the >beginning the Senators were not popularly elected, but were sent to >Congress by their state governments in the same way that nations >today send ambassadors to the UN General Assembly.
The Irish Senate (while it lasts) isn't popularly elected, either: the
unique procedure is rather interesting, and seems to be based on an
attempt to retain the better features, or potential features, of the
House of Lords and lose the absurdities. More at:
>> On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 07:43:37 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
>> <acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>>> Are these place names recognized by the US Post Office? I thought that
>>> long ago (1880s?) the Post Office had put an end to many duplicate
>>> names by saying that it would not deliver mail to places for which the
>>> name occurred more than once in any state. Unless, of course, they
>>> increased the number of states to 214+ when I wasxn't paying attention
>> It's not my impression that the US Post Office pays any attention at
>> all to the city name. The envelope goes to where the ZIP code says it
>> is to go. If the mail is sorted electronically, you could address a
>> letter to me using any city in writing, but it would arrive in my box
>> if the ZIP+4 code was correct for my house.
>No doubt, but zip codes didn't exist when the Post Office decided that >it didn't like duplicate names.
Where does that fit into the timeline with the decision that they didn't like
punctuation or lowercase?...r
>> ["-land"/"-ish"]
>>>> I think it's generally true for European countries, though.
>>> Holland (if you regard that as the name of a country)? The Netherlands?
>> OK, good point.
>>> I note, incidentally, that you live in a city that forms its adjective in
>>> a way no other British city (to my knowledge) does.
>> I don't know of another one that adds "-onian" directly to the name,
> Perhaps not in Britain, but Boston yields Bostonian, and I think
> Provincetown yields Provincetonian as well.
Tes, but they are not adding "onian", they are adding "ian", which is prett much the stanadrd thing to do when there is nothing more fancy on offer.
>> although "Aberdeen" forms "Aberdonian". But then there aren't many British
>> cities with monosyllabic names. I believe Hull forms "Hullensian" - what
>> about York?
>>>>> On 2012-11-11 03:10:05 +0000, Guy Barry said:
>>>>>> Not usually a productive one, though. Other countries in "-land" don't
>>>>>> have corresponding forms in "-ic" (with the exception of "Greenlandic",
>>>>>> although I think this is mainly used to refer to the language). We
>>>>>> have England/English, Scotland/Scottish, Ireland/Irish,
>>>>>> Finland/Finnish, Poland/Polish, so on those grounds I'd expect "Icish".
>>>>>> (Not sure where "Switzerland/Swiss" fits in though.)
>>>>> You seem to be wanting a logical and consistent system, but there is no
>>>>> reason to expect one. No committee ever sat down and decided that all
>>>>> the countries whose names ended in "land" would makie their adjectives
>>>>> by changing "land" to 'ish".
>>>> I think it's generally true for European countries, though.
>>> Holland (if you regard that as the name of a country)? The Netherlands?
>>> I note, incidentally, that you live in a city that forms its adjective
>>> in a way no other British city (to my knowledge) does.
>> Up to a point. Cheltenham > Cheltonian.
> Up to the same point: Oxonian, Exonian.
OK. I knew about those, of course, but they are not formed by adding "onian".
> "Oxford man dies in nuclear holocaust"
That illustrates what someone was querying earlier: that most of these names are not actually used in practice. I'd be quite surprised to see "Oxonian dies …" in a headline.
Of those that are commonly used, I don't think there are many apart from Mancunian, Liverpudlian, Glaswegian and maybe one or two others.
> The Irish Senate (while it lasts) isn't popularly elected, either: the
> unique procedure is rather interesting, and seems to be based on an
> attempt to retain the better features, or potential features, of the
> House of Lords and lose the absurdities. More at:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_senate
" Seanad Éireann consists of sixty senators:
Eleven appointed by the Taoiseach (prime minister).
Six elected by the graduates of certain Irish universities:
Three by graduates of the University of Dublin.
Three by graduates of the National University of Ireland.
43 elected from five special panels of nominees (known as Vocational Panels) by an electorate consisting of TDs (member of Dáil Éireann), senators and local councillors. Nomination is restrictive for the panel seats with only Oireachtas members and designated 'nominating bodies' entitled to nominate. Each of the five panels consists, in theory, of individuals possessing special knowledge of, or experience in, one of five specific fields. In practice the nominees are party members, often, though not always, failed or aspiring Dáil candidates."
So that's eleven appointed by direct political patronage, 43 who are supposedly specialists in their fields but actually party nominees, and six (incredibly) elected by the university vote - which I think this country abolished in 1945. Why on earth should graduates of certain universities have voting privileges denied to the rest of the population? Isn't that anti-democratic?
Guy Barry <guy.ba...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>So that's eleven appointed by direct political patronage, 43 who are >supposedly specialists in their fields but actually party nominees, and six >(incredibly) elected by the university vote - which I think this country >abolished in 1945. Why on earth should graduates of certain universities >have voting privileges denied to the rest of the population? Isn't that >anti-democratic?
What on earth do you think an upper house is *for*? If "democratic"
were the only relevant value, all parliaments would be unicameral.
-GAWollman
-- Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
woll...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993
"Lewis" wrote in message news:slrnka0p39.gb6.g.kreme@mbp55.local...
> In message <ToLns.456437$Ol2.444...@fx25.am4>
> Guy Barry <guy.ba...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> > "Athel Cornish-Bowden" wrote in message
> > news:ag98tjFpmmmU1@mid.individual.net...
> >> I note, incidentally, that you live in a city that forms its adjective > >> in
> >> a way no other British city (to my knowledge) does.
> > I don't know of another one that adds "-onian" directly to the name,
> Perhaps not in Britain, but Boston yields Bostonian, and I think
> Provincetown yields Provincetonian as well.
Neither of those adds "-onian" directly to the name; they're not "Bostononian" and "Provincetownonian". As already mentioned in the thread, there are several British demonyms ending in "-onian", but I still think Bath is unique in forming "Bathonian", probably because it's monosyllabic. We don't have too many monosyllabic cities - I've mentioned Hull, York and Leeds (which interestingly are all in Yorkshire). Can British posters think of others?
> Yes, but they are not adding "onian", they are adding "ian", which is > pretty much the standard thing to do when there is nothing more fancy on > offer.
I've just remembered that there's a local scandal sheet here called "The Bath Onion". Wouldn't work anywhere else.
> That illustrates what someone was querying earlier: that most of these > names are not actually used in practice. I'd be quite surprised to see > "Oxonian dies …" in a headline.
Isn't "Oxonian" normally used to refer to a member or graduate of the University of Oxford rather than a resident of the city?
> Of those that are commonly used, I don't think there are many apart from > Mancunian, Liverpudlian, Glaswegian and maybe one or two others.
"Bristolian" is certainly used. But I've heard "Geordie" and "Brummie" a thousand times more often than "Novocastrian" and "Birminghamian" (I actually had to look the second one up).
>> That illustrates what someone was querying earlier: that most of these >> names are not actually used in practice. I'd be quite surprised to see >> "Oxonian dies …" in a headline.
> Isn't "Oxonian" normally used to refer to a member or graduate of the > University of Oxford rather than a resident of the city?
Yes, but even then I'd expect "Oxford graduate" (or whatever) rather than "Oxonian". Likewise "Salopian" (rather an awkward name to be saddled with if one lives in France) nearly always refers to the school rather than the town.
>> Of those that are commonly used, I don't think there are many apart >> from Mancunian, Liverpudlian, Glaswegian and maybe one or two others.
> "Bristolian" is certainly used. But I've heard "Geordie" and "Brummie" > a thousand times more often than "Novocastrian" and "Birminghamian" (I > actually had to look the second one up).
> Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <m...@peterduncanson.net> filted:
> >"Iceland" is the English form of the Icelandic "Island".
> >And according to Wikip "Island" is pronounced as "eeslant".
> >According to Google Translate:
> > (English) Icelander = (Icelandic) Íslendingur
> Google Translate has some issues in this area:
> (English) Icelandic = (Icelandic) Icelandic
> (Icelandic) Íslenska = (English) English
> (English) English = (Icelandic) English
The first and third look like Google Translate's general policy of
leaving capitalized English words alone.
An example. Using English-Dutch, Google Translate gives:
I have a Popsicle. -> Ik heb een Popsicle.
I have a popsicle. -> Ik heb een ijslolly.
I don't know under what circumstances it translates capitalized nouns. I
do see these results:
I have a Dog. -> Ik heb een hond.
He has the nature of Dog. -> Hij heeft de aard van de hond.
>> The Irish Senate (while it lasts) isn't popularly elected, either: the
>> unique procedure is rather interesting, and seems to be based on an
>> attempt to retain the better features, or potential features, of the
>> House of Lords and lose the absurdities. More at:
>Eleven appointed by the Taoiseach (prime minister).
>Six elected by the graduates of certain Irish universities:
> Three by graduates of the University of Dublin.
> Three by graduates of the National University of Ireland.
>43 elected from five special panels of nominees (known as Vocational Panels) >by an electorate consisting of TDs (member of D il ireann), senators and >local councillors. Nomination is restrictive for the panel seats with only >Oireachtas members and designated 'nominating bodies' entitled to nominate. >Each of the five panels consists, in theory, of individuals possessing >special knowledge of, or experience in, one of five specific fields. In >practice the nominees are party members, often, though not always, failed or >aspiring D il candidates."
>So that's eleven appointed by direct political patronage, 43 who are >supposedly specialists in their fields but actually party nominees, and six >(incredibly) elected by the university vote - which I think this country >abolished in 1945. Why on earth should graduates of certain universities >have voting privileges denied to the rest of the population? Isn't that >anti-democratic?
I don't think it is intended as a democratic arrangement in the sense of
senators being representative of the people. The senators are chosen for
their knowledge and ability by people of knowledge and ability. My
interpretation is that they are analogous to professionals chosen by
professionals.
Such a system is surely of some value when so many elected politicians
are ignoramuses.
The status of the Irish Senate in relation to the lower house is similar
to that of the UK House of Lords to the House of Commons.
The University of Dublin and the National University of Ireland were, I
think, the only universities existing at the time the constitution was
written.
> I don't think it is intended as a democratic arrangement in the sense of
> senators being representative of the people. The senators are chosen for
> their knowledge and ability by people of knowledge and ability. My
> interpretation is that they are analogous to professionals chosen by
> professionals.
If it's such a great idea, then why is the government planning to abolish it?
' In October 2009, Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny stated that it was his intention that a Fine Gael government would abolish the Seanad, and along with reducing the number of TDs by 20, it would "save an estimated €150m over the term of a Dáil." In the 2011 election campaign, Labour and Sinn Féin also promised to abolish the Seanad, while Fianna Fáil supported a referendum on the issue. The programme of the Fine Gael–Labour coalition, which came to power at the election, promises to abolish the Seanad as part of a broader programme of constitutional reform. '
>> >> I note, incidentally, that you live in a city that forms its adjective >> >> in
>> >> a way no other British city (to my knowledge) does.
>> > I don't know of another one that adds "-onian" directly to the name,
>> Perhaps not in Britain, but Boston yields Bostonian, and I think
>> Provincetown yields Provincetonian as well.
>Neither of those adds "-onian" directly to the name; they're not >"Bostononian" and "Provincetownonian". As already mentioned in the thread, >there are several British demonyms ending in "-onian", but I still think >Bath is unique in forming "Bathonian", probably because it's monosyllabic. >We don't have too many monosyllabic cities - I've mentioned Hull, York and >Leeds (which interestingly are all in Yorkshire). Can British posters think >of others?
I have a road atlas of Britain[1] which includes street maps of some
towns and cities. Apart from those you have mentioned there are only the
Scottish towns of Ayr and Wick which are monosyllabic.
> On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 08:07:50 -0000, "Guy Barry"
> <guy.ba...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> >[...] I still think
> >Bath is unique in forming "Bathonian", probably because it's > >monosyllabic.
> >We don't have too many monosyllabic cities - I've mentioned Hull, York > >and
> >Leeds (which interestingly are all in Yorkshire). Can British posters > >think
> >of others?
> I have a road atlas of Britain[1] which includes street maps of some
> towns and cities. Apart from those you have mentioned there are only the
> Scottish towns of Ayr and Wick which are monosyllabic.
Well they're not cities, but there's no reason why we can't include major towns as well. Unfortunately I can't find a demonym for either.
>[Irish Seanad]
>> I don't think it is intended as a democratic arrangement in the sense of
>> senators being representative of the people. The senators are chosen for
>> their knowledge and ability by people of knowledge and ability. My
>> interpretation is that they are analogous to professionals chosen by
>> professionals.
>If it's such a great idea, then why is the government planning to abolish >it?
>' In October 2009, Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny stated that it was his >intention that a Fine Gael government would abolish the Seanad, and along >with reducing the number of TDs by 20, it would "save an estimated €150m >over the term of a Dáil." In the 2011 election campaign, Labour and Sinn >Féin also promised to abolish the Seanad, while Fianna Fáil supported a >referendum on the issue. The programme of the Fine Gael–Labour coalition, >which came to power at the election, promises to abolish the Seanad as part >of a broader programme of constitutional reform. '
Perhaps it is a matter of principle. Perhaps they want to be seen doing
something apparently significant. Fixing the Irish economy can't be done
with a stroke of a pen, but abolishing the Senate would be much easier.
