"Of the first water"
Mardon
years. Someone talking on the radio used it. My father used to use
it quite a lot but that was 40 years ago. How frequently would this
expression be used today? Is it something that's more prevalent in
some ethnic communities than others? My father's family had roots in
Alsace and Switzerland but he grew up in the U.S. I also wonder
about the origin of this phrase. I checked the web but there are so
many different explanations that I'm inclined to think the 'real'
origin of the phrase may be lost.
I think it's supposed to refer to "excellence" or "best in a group";
something like that. My father's usage, however, always centred on
situations where he was referring to a bad human characteristic and
wanted to identify someone with the strongest example of that
characteristic. For example, "He's a jackass of the first water."
Is this type of 'negative' targeted usage for this phrase unique to
my family?
Comments?
Father Ignatius
news:Xns97734773AA07Cm...@140.99.99.130...
>I heard this term used yesterday for the first time in many, many
> years. Someone talking on the radio used it. My father used to use
> it quite a lot but that was 40 years ago. How frequently would this
> expression be used today? Is it something that's more prevalent in
> some ethnic communities than others? My father's family had roots in
I recall it from, I think readings such as Leslie Charteris's "The Saint"
books (starting late 1920s). And my late grandmother used to use it
sometimes, suggesting very dated slang. So I think it is old-fashioned and
little used now.
> Alsace and Switzerland but he grew up in the U.S. I also wonder
> about the origin of this phrase. I checked the web but there are so
> many different explanations that I'm inclined to think the 'real'
> origin of the phrase may be lost.
>
> I think it's supposed to refer to "excellence" or "best in a group";
> something like that. My father's usage, however, always centred on
I understand it to be a a term from gemmology, describing the clarity of a
gemstone. The finest gemstones are "of the first water". Or were? I have
a vague memory that this method of classification has been superseded, which
would suggest why the phrase has fallen from common use.
> situations where he was referring to a bad human characteristic and
> wanted to identify someone with the strongest example of that
> characteristic. For example, "He's a jackass of the first water."
> Is this type of 'negative' targeted usage for this phrase unique to
> my family?
I don't recall ever encountering it used in a negative sense.
Steve Hayes
Something to do with the quality of diamonds, I think...
Googles (isn't broadband marefellous)
Yes...
Most diamonds are tinged with color. If a diamond's color is sufficiently
intense, it is prized as a gem and called a "fancy." Blue and pink diamonds
are the most valuable. Red diamonds are very rare. Clear white diamonds are
called diamonds of the first water.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~diamond/diaminfo.html
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Donna Richoux
I only know it because the English writer Georgette Heyer used it
repeatedly in her "Regency romances." Usually it was "a diamond of the
first water" for a beautiful woman, but also I think it modified
something else a time or two. I'm positive it was never colloquial US
English.
I read Heyer's biography once; she enjoyed digging up slang of the era
and putting in the books. Once in a while she invented something or got
it wrong, and when others began to write novels in the same period and
style, she could spot when they had copied those words from her. A bit
like copyright traps on maps.
I assumed the phrase came from some system of rating diamonds.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Steve Hayes
Something to do with the quality of diamonds, I think...
Matthew Huntbach
> "Mardon" <mgb7...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> I heard this term used yesterday for the first time in many, many
>> years. Someone talking on the radio used it.
...
>> I think it's supposed to refer to "excellence" or "best in a group";
>> something like that. My father's usage, however, always centred on
>> situations where he was referring to a bad human characteristic and
>> wanted to identify someone with the strongest example of that
>> characteristic. For example, "He's a jackass of the first water."
>> Is this type of 'negative' targeted usage for this phrase unique to
>> my family?
> I don't recall ever encountering it used in a negative sense.
According to the following site:
http://users.tinyonline.co.uk/gswithenbank/sayingso.htm
it's encountered "almost exclusively" in the negative sense.
I've never heard it, and at first assumed it was just a misunderstanding
of "of the first order". Replacing "jackass" with varying similar words
and googling with "X of the first order" and "X of the first water"
reveals the former occurs at the rate of about twice the latter.
This is more than enough to be just a mistake, so perhaps "of the
first water", from the gem usage, is the original, gradually being
replaced by the more logical sounding, but originally mishearing,
"of the first order".
Matthew Huntbach
Peter Duncanson
From _Longman Dictionary of English Idioms_, 1979:
of the first water/magnitude/order
coll. of the best, worst, finest, etc., type; "he is a fool
of the first water".
A diamond "of the first water" is one of the very finest
quality, one "of the second water" is not quite so fine,
and so on.
--
Peter Duncanson
UK (posting from a.u.e)
izzy
diamond industry. It is still used as a measure of excellence in the
Israeli diamond industry (which arrived here primarily from the
Netherlands).
The negative usage seems to be simply sardonic. Google gives the
following results:
"diamond of the first water" - 1060 hits
"liar of the first water" - 642 hits
"demon of the first water" - 19 hits
No one mentioned why this usage of "water" means "meter, measure".
I think it is simply a (primarily) Latin M - Germanic W parallel. I
call it the min-max / wane-wax phenomena. The most obvious examples are
man / wer and monde / world.
The same M - W parallel occurs with Hebrew and other languages. For
example, Hebrew MaTaR = water (that falls from the sky) and PIE *wodor
/ *wedor or Hittite watar. The modern Hebrew word for umbrella is
MiTRiah.
ciao,
Israel "izzy" Cohen
Mike Lyle
[...]
> I only know it because the English writer Georgette Heyer used it
> repeatedly in her "Regency romances." Usually it was "a diamond of the
> first water" for a beautiful woman, but also I think it modified
> something else a time or two. I'm positive it was never colloquial US
> English.
But the first time I ever read it as a boy was in an American book
(perhaps called _Lost in the Horse Latitudes_). The quotation, as near
as I can make it, was:
"You know what water is?"
"Yes."
"You know what 'the _first_ water' is?"
"Yes."
"Well, that's what you're a son of a bitch of."
It's commonplace in BrEtcE, in all sorts of collocations.
--
Mike.
Don Phillipson
news:Pine.LNX.4.64.06...@frank.dcs.qmul.ac.uk...
> I've never heard it, and at first assumed it was just a misunderstanding
> of "of the first order". Replacing "jackass" with varying similar words
> and googling with "X of the first order" and "X of the first water"
> reveals the former occurs at the rate of about twice the latter.
> This is more than enough to be just a mistake, so perhaps "of the
> first water", from the gem usage, is the original, gradually being
> replaced by the more logical sounding, but originally mishearing,
> "of the first order".
MH's reasoning may be defective.
1. The original phrase is the jeweler's jargon for
top quality. Its application to other events (anything
other than jewels) is thus a metaphor.
2. The metaphor "first water" may sound like the
words "first order" and people who do not recognize
the metaphor may indeed mishear the words. But
this does not mean the second is "more logical"
than the original. I.e. we should not generalize that
a similarity in rhythm and phonemes indicates any
sort of relation between the differennt ideas each
expresses: their use for similar social purposes
(because "first order" is also a metaphor) is
a granfalloon (Vonnegut.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> I agree with those who have connected "of the first water" to the
> diamond industry. It is still used as a measure of excellence in the
> Israeli diamond industry (which arrived here primarily from the
> Netherlands).
>
> The negative usage seems to be simply sardonic. Google gives the
> following results:
> "diamond of the first water" - 1060 hits
> "liar of the first water" - 642 hits
> "demon of the first water" - 19 hits
>
> No one mentioned why this usage of "water" means "meter, measure".
>
> I think it is simply a (primarily) Latin M - Germanic W parallel. I
> call it the min-max / wane-wax phenomena. The most obvious examples are
> man / wer and monde / world.
According to the AHD, the German counterpart of Latin "vir" is the
"were-" of "werewolf". Strangely enough, "world" is also related to
these words, not to "mundus"
<http://www.bartleby.com/61/39/W0093900.html>. Latin counterparts of
"wane" include "vanus", "vacare", and "vastus", all with English
descendants; those of "wax" include "augere", "augustus", "auxilium",
ditto. No need for MW (sorry, Noah; sorry, Rowan).
--
Jerry Friedman
Ray Heindl
> I understand it to be a a term from gemmology, describing the
> clarity of a gemstone. The finest gemstones are "of the first
> water". Or were? I have a vague memory that this method of
> classification has been superseded, which would suggest why the
> phrase has fallen from common use.
The RHUD lists that meaning as a "(formerly)", so presumably it's no
longer current.
The only place I've ever encountered it was in a Sherlock Holmes Story,
_The Sign of Four_, where it was used to refer to actual diamonds. It
was also used in the phrase "a diamond of the first water in a setting
of brass", referring to something that was of much higher quality than
its surroundings.
--
Ray Heindl
(remove the Xs to reply)
Evan Kirshenbaum
> No one mentioned why this usage of "water" means "meter, measure".
>
> I think it is simply a (primarily) Latin M - Germanic W parallel. I
> call it the min-max / wane-wax phenomena. The most obvious examples are
> man / wer and monde / world.
>
> The same M - W parallel occurs with Hebrew and other languages. For
> example, Hebrew MaTaR = water (that falls from the sky) and PIE *wodor
> / *wedor or Hittite watar. The modern Hebrew word for umbrella is
> MiTRiah.
According to the OED, there may be a Semitic link here, but as a
calque:
20. a. The transparency and lustre characteristic of a diamond or a
pearl. The three highest grades of quality in diamonds were
formerly known as the _first_, _second_, and _third water_;
the phrase _of the first water_ survives in popular use as a
designation of the finest quality, often applied to jewels
generally.
[The equivalent use is found in all the mod. Rom. and Teut. langs.;
it may have come from Arabic, where this sense of mA, water, is a
particular application of the sense 'lustre, splendour' (e.g. of a
sword).]
Matthew Huntbach
> "Matthew Huntbach" <m...@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote in message
>> I've never heard it, and at first assumed it was just a misunderstanding
>> of "of the first order". Replacing "jackass" with varying similar words
>> and googling with "X of the first order" and "X of the first water"
>> reveals the former occurs at the rate of about twice the latter.
>> This is more than enough to be just a mistake, so perhaps "of the
>> first water", from the gem usage, is the original, gradually being
>> replaced by the more logical sounding, but originally mishearing,
>> "of the first order".
> MH's reasoning may be defective.
> 1. The original phrase is the jeweler's jargon for
> top quality. Its application to other events (anything
> other than jewels) is thus a metaphor.
> 2. The metaphor "first water" may sound like the
> words "first order" and people who do not recognize
> the metaphor may indeed mishear the words. But
> this does not mean the second is "more logical"
> than the original. I.e. we should not generalize that
> a similarity in rhythm and phonemes indicates any
> sort of relation between the differennt ideas each
> expresses: their use for similar social purposes
> (because "first order" is also a metaphor) is
> a granfalloon (Vonnegut.)
Is there any difference in meaning between "Jackass of the first
water" and "Jackass of the first order"? Since I'm not familiar with
the former, I couldn't say for sure, but looking at examples, it seems to me
there's no difference.
I think if I had heard neither phrase previously, I would understand "Jackass
of the first order" in its correct meaning more easily than "Jackass of the
first water". "Jackass of the first order" suggests there is some
ordering of categories of jackass, and the person so-described falls into
the prime category, the most jackass-like sort of jackass. Without any
knowledge of the use "of the first water" in the gem trade, or previous
familiarity with its metaphorical use, "jackass of the first water" just
sounds mysterious, I wouldn't have any particular inclination that it must
mean a particularly fine example of a jackass.
Matthew Huntbach
izzy
If one wants to trace words to a point in time earlier than Germanic,
Greek, and Latin, that is, to a common ancestor of PIE and AA
languages, then the MW parallel helps a lot.
The fact that no dictionary cites a connection between monde and world,
or between wer/vir and (hu)man does not mean there was no such
connection. Merely failing to fully close one's mouth while pronouncing
an M will produce a W-sound. How about "watch", as in wristwatch, and
Semitic MD S3H mad sha3a = measure + hour. Don't tell us it's called a
watch because watchguard duty was divided into periods of time called
"watches". :-)
There is an even more prevalent parallel between one of the Hebrew hets
(without a schwa) and W. It is especially obvious in siblant + het =
SW. For example (using [W] for het), Semitic SHa[W]oR = black is
parallel to schwartz or Sia[W]+yaM is parallel to swim. An earlier
dental shin (with a T/D sound) + a W-sounding het yields a SHa[W]aR =
dawn connection.
I think the Hebrew het lost its W-sound at about the time ancient Greek
lost its digamma = W. That het later had a classical Greek/Latin
X-sound. For that reason het is often transcribed as X. Compare the
Spanish and English pronunciations of meXico.
Perhaps the most obvious het-W parallel is illustrated by Hebrew
[W]aRSiNa from [W]eReS = pottery, clay + SiNa = China and English
chinaware. Today we have hardware and software, but the earliest wares
for sale were made of clay.
Sometimes a word that arrives in Hebrew with a het arrives in English
with a W via Germanic and an X via Latin. For example, yod-resh-het
YaRa:a[W/X] = moon. The moon is the growing-est thing in the sky. Via
Germanic, we have GRoW. Via Latin we have KReX with metathesis to
cresc-, as in increase, decrease, crescendo, crescent (moon-shaped),
and croissant (a moon-shaped French pastry).
Or we have Loo[W/X]oT haBRiT = tablets of the covenant, that is the 10
commandments, where Loo[W/X] is now English LaW and Latin LeX.
Again, if one is satisfied to trace words back to forms no earlier than
Germanic and Classical Latin/Greek, then a schwaless het-W or het-X
parallel is not needed.
ciao,
Israel "izzy" Cohen
izzy
The standard etymology for "jewel" is something of a joke (humor
intended). I see an M - W parallel between "gem" and "jewel".
There is a very pervasive tendency for the SAME collection of meanings
(semantics) to be united as homonyms or near-homonyms across languages
... even where there is no cross-linguistic phonetic connection between
those homonyms. (Of course, sometimes there is.)
For example, English "sound" combines "tone that you hear" with "(dive)
deep", as in the whale sounded or Puget Sound. In Hebrew,
tzadi-lamed-lamed has the same meanings. The Italian cello, which
produces a deep sound, may be a pleasant coincidence.
So it is with English gem / gemination = twinning and Hebrew [Urim v']
TooMiM = the high priest's breastplate (with 12 gemstones) and T'@ooMiM
= twins.
Forgive me for quoting myself (with some modification to the meaning of
Luxor and Karnak):
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/ABOUT-WORDS/2002-11/1037717360
gemination, another dotty email from izzy
> How do you pronounce the word <ditto>? And, <dotty>?
Izzy pronounces both of them with one T: dih'-toe and dah'-ti.
> this must be the only word in the English language where you
> find an actual doubling of the same sound. ... In Sanskrit/
> Marathi, this is called as Jod-ukshur (jod--pair, uk'shur --
> letter). Is there any special term for this English?
Random House says:
gem-i-nate v. jem'uh nayt
1. to make or become doubled or paired.
2. combined or arranged in pairs; coupled.
3. a doubled consonant sound.
[1590-1600; < L geminatus, ptp. of geminare to
double, der. of geminus twin]
The near homonym of gem = jewel and gemination = twinning
also occurs in Hebrew: [Urim v'] TooMiM = breastplate
of high priest with 12 jewels) and T'?ooMiM = twins.
I suspect the Urim and Thummim in the high priest's
breastplate were used to generate messages by
assigning letter-sounds to each of the 12 stones.
Slight movements of the device would cause various
stones to sparkle in a sequence whose letter-sounds
constituted the message: a very early light-->sound
show, somewhat like a bejeweled ouija board. In
addition, each stone represented one of the 12 tribes.
Urim and Thummim (yoor'im, oor'-; thum'im, toom'-) n., pl.
objects worn in the breastplate of the Jewish high priest and
used, perhaps like lots, to determine God's will. Ex. 28:30.
[1530-40; partial trans. of Heb urim wethummim]
Compare this excerpt from my "Groundhog Day Party" analysis:
Memnon (mem'non) n.
<Colossus of> a statue near ancient Thebes that produced
musical sounds when the morning sun shone on it.
I discovered this gem via a dictionary definition search.
Memnon: I'm luxuriating in LuxOr (aka Karn-ak). I still
produce tones from (furtive glance + whisper) light rays.
Thebes (theebz) n.
an ancient city in S Egypt, on the Nile, on the site of the
modern towns of Karnak
Hebrew KeReN = ray of light + NaKev = hole, slit, aperture
and Luxor.
Latin lux = light + Hebrew het-oh-resh XoR = hole
[where there probably was a Stonehenge-like device
through which light could shine on some special day].
Here, also, there is an equivalence between Lux/light and Karn
(Hebrew KeReN = ray of light / horn) = horn/cornet that makes
musical tones.
Based on a het-W parallel, "jewel" may be related to
gimel-het-lamed... as in
GaXaLiLiS = firefly, glowworm, lightning bug
GaXeLeS = cinder, coal, ember
GaXaLiS = carbuncle
carbuncle (kär'bung kuhl) n.
2. a gemstone, esp. a garnet, cut with a
convex back and a cabochon surface.
3. Obs. any rounded red gem.
[1150-1200; ME < AF < L carbunculus kind of
precious stone, tumor, lit., live coal = carbon-,
s. of carbo burning charcoal + -culus - CULE 1]
Random House derives jewel as follows...
[1250-1300; ME jouel, juel < AF jeul, OF jouel,
joel < VL *jocale = plaything, n. use of neut. of
*jocalis (adj.) = of play < L joc(us) = JOKE + -alis -AL 1]
... but the VL and L parts of that Random House etymology
look like an etymological joke to izzy.
Urim & Thummim < Hebrew ?ooRiM = lights (using ? for aleph)
+ TooMiM/SooMim ~? shin-mem-aiyin = to hear; sound, sonority
~ TaMiM = perfect; sound (free from defect)
> T'MiM Da:3iM = perfect in knowledge
There is an interesting sound-alike parallel between
Hebrew TooMiM as in Urim and Thummim = oracle (above) and
Hebrew T'?ooMiM = twins.
Compare gem and gemination = twinning; a doubled consonant
sound.
Random House gives
oracle
[1350-1400; ME < OF < L oraculum = divine utterance
< ora(re) = to supplicate, pray to + -culum - CLE 2]
Izzy would derive oracle from Hebrew ?oR = light
+ Latin -CLE = a means by which the action is performed
(vehicle), analogous to Hebrew kaf-lamed-yod KLi = tool,
apparatus; but also (aha !) ornament, jewel.
izzy
PS - If you didn't receive the "Groundhog Day Party" analysis,
let me know and I'll pun-ish you with a copy by return email.
Mardon
> I heard this term used yesterday for the first time in many,
> many years. Someone talking on the radio used it. My father
> used to use it quite a lot but that was 40 years ago. How
> frequently would this expression be used today? Is it something
> that's more prevalent in some ethnic communities than others?
<*snip*>
Communications devices can operate in "simplex mode" or "duplex
mode". When two people are using a duplex device to communicate,
both people can hear each other all the time. This means that even
when one person is talking, they can still hear the other person if
that other person speaks. A standard telephone is an example of a
communications device using duplex operation. When using a simplex
communication device, the person who is talking cannot hear anything
that spoken by the other person. This means that it is useless to
begin speaking until the other person has stopped talking. If you do
so, the other person will not be able to hear you. Children's
walkie-talkies are a common example of simplex devices. Many
commercial VHF radio systems operate in simplex mode. Older
communications equipment is also usually simplex. When communicating
via a simplex link, it is standard operating practice to say "over"
when you are ready to stop talking and listen. This avoids you
saying things that the other person cannot hear. My guess is that he
was using "over" in this context. Perhaps it was an actual simplex
link or perhaps he used it as a result of habit because he is
routinely using simplex communications in his job.
Mardon
> Communications devices can...
Opps! Posted to the wrong thread. Sorry!
BTW.. Thanks for all the responses to my OP about "Of the first
water". :)
R H Draney
>
>Mardon <mgb7...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Communications devices can...
>
>Opps! Posted to the wrong thread. Sorry!
Sure, that's what you'd like us to believe...it remains to be seen whether
Matthew Shepard will take it as a sarcastic comment on his remarks on
helpfulness....r
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> Jerry --
>
> If one wants to trace words to a point in time earlier than Germanic,
> Greek, and Latin, that is, to a common ancestor of PIE and AA
> languages, then the MW parallel helps a lot.
So do all parallels you can think of, but you need evidence that can
prove one correspondence and disprove another.
> The fact that no dictionary cites a connection between monde and world,
> or between wer/vir and (hu)man does not mean there was no such
> connection.
No, but it would be nice to have evidence for the connection. One
problem is that "world" looks farther from "mundus" if you go back to
the Anglo-Saxon /weorold/. And any MW parallel doesn't help in tracing
connections between English and Latin. Those correspondences are well
known.
"Human" is from "humus", earth (as still in English). The "n" is part
of a suffix.
> Merely failing to fully close one's mouth while pronouncing
> an M will produce a W-sound.
Well, yes. Do you know of any case where that provably happened in
etymology?
> How about "watch", as in wristwatch, and
> Semitic MD S3H mad sha3a = measure + hour. Don't tell us it's called a
> watch because watchguard duty was divided into periods of time called
> "watches". :-)
Why not?
It's certainly called a watch because of the verb "watch", one way or
another, and that verb is related to "wake" and "vigil". You seem to
be suggesting that when the portable chronometer was invented, English
speakers gave it a name based on a Semitic phrase, or a phrase from the
common ancestor of Afro-Asiatic and Indo-European, that in the
intervening millennia had had no observable effect on English but had
undergone sound changes and was waiting to be used.
> There is an even more prevalent parallel between one of the Hebrew hets
> (without a schwa) and W. It is especially obvious in siblant + het =
> SW. For example (using [W] for het), Semitic SHa[W]oR = black is
> parallel to schwartz or Sia[W]+yaM is parallel to swim. An earlier
> dental shin (with a T/D sound) + a W-sounding het yields a SHa[W]aR =
> dawn connection.
>
> I think the Hebrew het lost its W-sound at about the time ancient Greek
> lost its digamma = W. That het later had a classical Greek/Latin
> X-sound. For that reason het is often transcribed as X. Compare the
> Spanish and English pronunciations of meXico.
What happened with "Mexico" was that a [S] (sh sound) was transcribed
as "x" in Spanish, according to the spelling of the time, and then
given the obvious pronunciation in English. The Spanish [S] then
changed to a "het" sound, spelled "j" in modern Spanish. Compare
sherry, from a city now known as Jerez de la Frontera.
> Perhaps the most obvious het-W parallel is illustrated by Hebrew
> [W]aRSiNa from [W]eReS = pottery, clay + SiNa = China and English
> chinaware. Today we have hardware and software, but the earliest wares
> for sale were made of clay.
According to the AHD again, Old English /waru/ meant "protection" and
"guard" as well as "goods". Thus a connection with "guard", "ward",
"regard", etc. makes a lot more sense then a connection with a word for
clay.
[snip the moon]
> Or we have Loo[W/X]oT haBRiT = tablets of the covenant, that is the 10
> commandments, where Loo[W/X] is now English LaW and Latin LeX.
But as you know, "luaX" means table. The connection with laws
presumably arose no earlier than Moses's sojourn on Sinai, much later
than the common origin of "law" (from Old English "lagu") and "lex".
> Again, if one is satisfied to trace words back to forms no earlier than
> Germanic and Classical Latin/Greek, then a schwaless het-W or het-X
> parallel is not needed.
But facts are. I like your puns, but this is the last time I'm going
to read your etymologies. I like the ones in AHD (the source for most
of what I've written here) much better.
Obaue: a [S] or an [S]?
--
Jerry Friedman
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> izzy wrote:
...
> > The fact that no dictionary cites a connection between monde and world,
> > or between wer/vir and (hu)man does not mean there was no such
> > connection.
...
> "Human" is from "humus", earth (as still in English). The "n" is part
> of a suffix.
The connection between "human" and "humus" doesn't seem to be that
direct, though AHD does think they're related, and the "n" does seem to
be part of a suffix.
...
> > I think the Hebrew het lost its W-sound at about the time ancient Greek
> > lost its digamma = W. That het later had a classical Greek/Latin
> > X-sound. For that reason het is often transcribed as X. Compare the
> > Spanish and English pronunciations of meXico.
>
> What happened with "Mexico" was that a [S] (sh sound) was transcribed
> as "x" in Spanish, according to the spelling of the time, and then
> given the obvious pronunciation in English. The Spanish [S] then
> changed to a "het" sound, spelled "j" in modern Spanish. Compare
> sherry, from a city now known as Jerez de la Frontera.
Formerly Xerez.
...
> > Or we have Loo[W/X]oT haBRiT = tablets of the covenant, that is the 10
> > commandments, where Loo[W/X] is now English LaW and Latin LeX.
>
> But as you know, "luaX" means table.
Or as you really know better than I do, it means board, tablet,
calendar, etc.
> The connection with laws
> presumably arose no earlier than Moses's sojourn on Sinai, much later
> than the common origin of "law" (from Old English "lagu") and "lex".
To my surprise, AHD says, "(It is also possible, but uncertain, that
Latin lex comes, like English law, from a form meaning "that which is
set or laid down," from legh-.)", but they put "lex" tentatively with
"collect" and "logos" and that stuff
<http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE267.html>.
> > Again, if one is satisfied to trace words back to forms no earlier than
> > Germanic and Classical Latin/Greek, then a schwaless het-W or het-X
> > parallel is not needed.
>
> But facts are.
...
Sorry for not checking my own.
--
Jerry Friedman
sage
topic under discussion -- whatever the topic was and whether they were
being positive or negative about it -- was first class. Thus a first
class jackass is exactly what it means; there's nothing mysterious about
it. In turn, a rose of the first water is exactly what one wants in
one's buttonhole; very natty.
So, if you came from a family which used it at all, you knew what it
meant and how to use it. Only later in life does one discover its
origins, but nothing is lost from one's previous usage. It's just
another example of the flexibility of English.
Cheers, Sage
Robert Bannister
No doubt one of things you can "feel in your water", which is presumably
why doctors always ask you about your "waterworks".
--
Rob Bannister
izzy
>>
[The wristwatch is] certainly called a watch because of the verb
"watch", one way or another, and that verb is related to "wake" and
chronometer was invented, English speakers gave it a name based on a
Semitic phrase, or a phrase from the common ancestor of Afro-Asiatic
and Indo-European, that in the intervening millennia had had no
observable effect on English but had undergone sound changes and was
waiting to be used.
<<
Not exactly. English speakers did not "give" a name to the clock or the
watch. They borrowed a word for clock from French, or from German
glocke, meaning "bell", because the early clocks struck a bell on the
hour.
And they borrowed a word for "watch" when the first ones arrived in
England. The first watches were probably made in Nuremberg, Germany.
>>
http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa072801a.htm
Another advance was the invention of spring-powered clocks between 1500
and 1510 by Peter Henlein, a German locksmith from Nuremberg. Replacing
the heavy drive weights permitted smaller (and portable) clocks and
watches. Henlein nicknamed his clocks "Nuremberg Eggs". ... they were
popular among wealthy individuals due to their size and the fact that
they could be put on a shelf or table instead of hanging from the wall.
They were the first portable timepieces. However, they only had an hour
hand, minute hands did not appear until 1670, ...<<
Please note the pun involved in obtaining "...Eggs" from Hen-lein. The
next item gives some reason to believe that Yiddish-speakers were
involved in early watchmaking activities.
>>
http://www.hebrewhistory.info/factpapers/fp017-2_gold.htm
>From the Roman into the modern period Jews were involved in
transforming precious and other metals into objets d'arte in Europe.
They were proficient in all the related industries such as jewelry
manufacture, watchmaking, lock-smithing, needle-making, minting of
money, sword and armor-making.
<<
The standard German word for "time, hour" is Uhr. This word is also
used for a timepiece. The Hebrew word for "hour" is SHa3aH (using 3 for
the letter aiyin). This word is well known to Yiddish speakers because
of the pat phrase B'shaah tova (in both Hebrew and Yiddish):
>>
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/11-Miscellaneous/section-4.html
B'shaah tova
Congratulations to an expectent mother (literarily "in a good hour,"
means "at an auspicious time," i.e. may whatever time your child is
born be a good time.") Also the correct response to the anouncement of
a marriage engagement. In both cases, it is in anticipation of a "mazel
tov" for something hoped for, that has not yet occurred. [H] <<
I have heard diamond merchants say "water" with the meaning "measure".
I am suggesting that watchmakers could have said "WaT + SHa3ah" for "a
time measuring device". The Hebrew equivalent is MaD or MaDaD (meter,
measuring device).
I have long been looking for a source of the Yiddish expression "Hock
mier [nisht] en chinik", literally, [don't] bang on my teakettle.
Thanks to you, I found this gem:
>>
http://www.word-detective.com/111703.html
The use of "kettle" to mean "watch" first appeared in the argot of
thieves in the 19th century, and apparently first referred to the large
pocket watches popular at that time. The shape and heavy metal
construction of old pocket watches makes likening them to kettles only
a slight stretch, and a thief specializing in watches was known in the
early 20th century as a "kettle banger." <<
It seems the Yiddish expression is an extension of "stealing one's
timepiece" to "stealing/wasting one's time". It is usually said to
someone who is bothering you by saying a lot of nonsense.
This is enough nonsense for one email.
Israel "izzy" Cohen
Wayne Brown
>
> I have long been looking for a source of the Yiddish expression "Hock
> mier [nisht] en chinik", literally, [don't] bang on my teakettle.
> Thanks to you, I found this gem:
>>>
> http://www.word-detective.com/111703.html
> The use of "kettle" to mean "watch" first appeared in the argot of
> thieves in the 19th century, and apparently first referred to the large
> pocket watches popular at that time. The shape and heavy metal
> construction of old pocket watches makes likening them to kettles only
> a slight stretch, and a thief specializing in watches was known in the
> early 20th century as a "kettle banger." <<
>
> It seems the Yiddish expression is an extension of "stealing one's
> timepiece" to "stealing/wasting one's time". It is usually said to
> someone who is bothering you by saying a lot of nonsense.
In my humble opinion, that may not be the explanation at all. Some of the roots of Yiddish expressions have to be sought in Slavic languages, for example in Russia and Ukraine. The Yiddish word "chinik" in this context immediately calls to mind a Russian slang expression : "ударить по чайнику" (udarit' po chainiku), which can be translated as "to bang or hit (someone) on the kettle." "Kettle" in this expression means "head" -- usage that is well known in Russia. "Чайник" ("chainik," kettle) has a number of other slang meanings in Russian, including "dummy" in the sense of a dumb person, and seems to acquire new slang meanings from time. There, I believe, is where the explanation lies.
Regards, ----- WB.
izzy
believable) explanation.
For example, see:
http://www.amyisrael.co.il/berman/yiddish.htm
· Hock mir nisht en chinik - Don't hit me in the head. or Dont'
give me a headache.
Israel "izzy" Cohen
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
[...]
> For example, see:
> http://www.amyisrael.co.il/berman/yiddish.htm
Yiddish transliterated in that horrible
English-German-Yiddish-Hebrew mishmash.
> · Hock mir nisht en chinik
Gevalt!
~~~ Rey ~~~
Who knows from Yiddish