Cities in England
John Seeliger
learned that a city in order to be a city must technically be the seat
of a bishop and that Well is England's smallest city[3]. So, the
question is, what do bishops do when they are not in the city. Stand?
Kneel[4]? Lie prostrate?
Also, it seems unlikely that the word city is derived for sit, as in a
sit-ee is a place where a bishop sits, but I thought I would just
throw it in. Some, before Christianity came to the British Isle, what
did a place have to become a city and at what point did this
definition of a city begin?
Also, do these bishops have to move diagonally?
Also mentioned is that Stonehenge's stones came from Wales, 240 miles
away. Now I might be really confused he :-/ but I just got to ask...
Where did these whales get the stones from?
[1]- <http://ricksteves.com/marketplace/videos/scripts.htm>
[2]- <http://tvlistings2.zap2it.com/progdetails.asp?prog_id=1611649&series_id=761730>,
<http://www.pbs.com>
[3]- <http://ricksteves.com/marketplace/videos/heartengscr.htm>
[4]- One of my favorite Dilbert strips is where he meets his boss who
introduces himself as "Neal" and Dilbert thinks he is being ordered to
"kneel" and oblidges the boss and then tries to save face by feigning
the loss of a contact lens and when he tells Dogbert later, Dogbert
thinks it is hilarious and says that it is good his name isn't
"EatAChair". True because the chair might be the bishop's seat and
England might then lose a city that way. And Dilbert sarcastically
replies that he is glad Dogbert enjoys his humiliation so much, IIRC.
This is from the 31 July 1989
Dilber<http://www.triviaasylum.com/dilbert/diltriv.html>
Harvey V
wrote:
> On Saturday, while watching Rick's Steves Europe[1] on PBS[2] I
> learned that a city in order to be a city must technically be the
> seat of a bishop and that Well is England's smallest city[3].
[Nitpick: it's "Wells": there's more than one in the vicinity.....]
The "requirements for city status in England" thread is an old chestnut
thread in here, so I'll shortcut to some of the myths you can squash:
You need a cathedral. (Nope)
You need a university. (Nope)
It has to do with markets. (Nope)
To clarify the comment by Rick Steves (who he?), if an English place
has a cathedral it is a city; but there also cities that don't have
cathedrals.
--
Cheers,
Harvey
Michael J Hardy
> On Saturday, while watching Rick's Steves Europe[1] on PBS[2] I
> learned that a city in order to be a city must technically be the
> seat of a bishop
[ ..... ]
> at what point did this definition of a city begin?
We had this discussion here before. I don't know when it began,
but apparently it ended about 1 & 1/2 centuries ago. And it does not
apply to bishops who are mere suffragans.
> Also, do these bishops have to move diagonally?
In the Church of England bishops need not be celibate, but
they must move diagonally. -- Mike Hardy
Matt Davis
news:cb01f3d7.02050...@posting.google.com...
> On Saturday, while watching Rick's Steves Europe[1] on PBS[2] I
> learned that a city in order to be a city must technically be the seat
> of a bishop and that Well is England's smallest city[3]. So, the
> question is, what do bishops do when they are not in the city. Stand?
> Kneel[4]? Lie prostrate?
Tideswell, near Buxton, is a city. It is also a tiny village. However,
it has a cathedral. Surely this is smaller than Well(s)?
Cheers,
Matt
John Seeliger
> [2]- <http://tvlistings2.zap2it.com/progdetails.asp?prog_id=1611649&series_id=761730>,
> <http://www.pbs.com>
I misspelled <http://www.pbs.org>
John Seeliger
> I espied that on 02 May 2002, jsee...@yahoo.com (John Seeliger)
> wrote:
>
> > On Saturday, while watching Rick's Steves Europe[1] on PBS[2] I
> > learned that a city in order to be a city must technically be the
> > seat of a bishop and that Well is England's smallest city[3].
>
> [Nitpick: it's "Wells": there's more than one in the vicinity.....]
>
Thanks for pointing it out. I knew it was Wells but misspelled that
as well.
> The "requirements for city status in England" thread is an old chestnut
> thread in here, so I'll shortcut to some of the myths you can squash:
>
> You need a cathedral. (Nope)
> You need a university. (Nope)
> It has to do with markets. (Nope)
>
> To clarify the comment by Rick Steves (who he?), if an English place
> has a cathedral it is a city; but there also cities that don't have
> cathedrals.
Rick Steves is a travel author from Seattle who takes frequent trips
to Europe (well one also went into the Asian part of Turkey, near
Syria, as well) and does travel programs for PBS. His books include
info on sites to visit and travel tips to save money, etc.
Garry J. Vass
> learned that a city in order to be a city must technically be the seat
The reporter made an error, the imputed relationship between cities and
bishoprics was established by Henry VIII as a general practice, but not a
rule. Birmingham is a notable example of a city created without a
bishopric.
Milton-Keynes and Brighton are cities without cathedrals.
>
> Also mentioned is that Stonehenge's stones came from Wales, 240 miles
> away. Now I might be really confused he :-/ but I just got to ask...
> Where did these whales get the stones from?
>
In the foggy days of antiquity, they were purchased fair-and-square from the
Phoenicians by an ancient druid called Lordinius Elginius.
rzed
"Garry J. Vass" <ga...@totally-official.com> wrote in message
news:aatu51$di80c$1...@ID-134717.news.dfncis.de...
Your knowledge of prehistory is marbleous!
Don Aitken
A cathedral of what denomination? Only Anglican cathedrals are
relevant to the "city" issue. Arundel has a Roman Catholic cathedral,
but it is not a city.
--
Don Aitken
Michael J Hardy
> the imputed relationship between cities and bishoprics was
> established by Henry VIII as a general practice, but not a
> rule.
Once upon a time I stated in this newsgroup that according to an
old definition, a "city" is a town where a bishop of the Church of
England officially resides. Someone pointed out that that implies
that there are no cities outside of England. -- Mike Hardy
Jonathan Jordan
Garry J. Vass <ga...@totally-official.com> wrote in message
news:aatu51$di80c$1...@ID-134717.news.dfncis.de...
> news:cb01f3d7.02050...@posting.google.com...
> > On Saturday, while watching Rick's Steves Europe[1] on PBS[2] I
> > learned that a city in order to be a city must technically be the seat
>
> The reporter made an error, the imputed relationship between cities and
> bishoprics was established by Henry VIII as a general practice, but not a
> rule. Birmingham is a notable example of a city created without a
> bishopric.
>
> Milton-Keynes and Brighton are cities without cathedrals.
>
is being offered, along with many other towns, but it hasn't yet been given
it.
There is a full list of official cities at
http://www.lcd.gov.uk/constitution/city/citygj.htm#part6
Jonathan
Jonathan Jordan
Don Aitken <don-a...@freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:3cd2abf7...@news.freeuk.net...
as I'm aware Tideswell's church is not actually a cathedral, but is "known
locally" as the Cathedral of the Peak - see
http://www.cressbrook.co.uk/tidza/home.htm
Jonathan
david56
I've often wondered about this. Salford is a city but only possesses a
Roman Catholic Cathedral (less than a mile from Manchester Cathedral).
--
David
I say what it occurs to me to say.
The address is valid today, but I will change it to keep ahead of the
spammers.
david56
>
> There is a full list of official cities at
> http://www.lcd.gov.uk/constitution/city/citygj.htm#part6
Since the original questioner was interested in size, it's worth
pointing out that St David's in Wales wouldn't qualify as more than a
village if it weren't for the huge cathedral which takes up about the
same area as the populated space. I believe the population is about
1500.
Richard Fontana
> Jonathan Jordan wrote:
> >
> > There is a full list of official cities at
> > http://www.lcd.gov.uk/constitution/city/citygj.htm#part6
>
> Since the original questioner was interested in size, it's worth
> pointing out that St David's in Wales wouldn't qualify as more than a
> village if it weren't for the huge cathedral which takes up about the
> same area as the populated space. I believe the population is about
> 1500.
Say, if it's the case that there are some "cities" in the UK that only
have city status because of the presence of an Anglican cathedral, and
if it's the case that having city status confers certain significant
benefits (e.g. money or public works or something), is this not a
concrete example of how the absence of separation between Church and
State even today leads to real unfairness in Britain? I say this
because UK persons here have in the past argued that the official
status of the Church of England (in England, at any rate) is completely
insignificant, as the Church is totally self-supporting and all.
That is, are there some small cities, towns by any reasonable
description, which have an unfair advantage over similarly-situated
towns in England/Britain, solely because the UK has chosen to recognize
a particular state religion?
Harvey V
wrote:
> Don Aitken wrote:
-snip-
>> A cathedral of what denomination? Only Anglican cathedrals are
>> relevant to the "city" issue. Arundel has a Roman Catholic
>> cathedral, but it is not a city.
>
> I've often wondered about this. Salford is a city but only
> possesses a Roman Catholic Cathedral (less than a mile from
> Manchester Cathedral).
As he says: only cathedrals of the Established church/Anglican
cathedrals grant a place city status. RC cathedrals have no bearing on
municipal status.
This cathedral door thing doesn't swing both ways. If a small town has
an cathedral of the Established church, it gains civic status as a city
-- but there are other ways of becoming a city, and these are unrelated
to whether or not there's a cathedral in the place.
--
Cheers,
Harvey
Harvey V
<rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
> On Fri, 3 May 2002, david56 wrote:
>
>> Jonathan Jordan wrote:
>>>
>>> There is a full list of official cities at
>>> http://www.lcd.gov.uk/constitution/city/citygj.htm#part6
>>
>> Since the original questioner was interested in size, it's worth
>> pointing out that St David's in Wales wouldn't qualify as more
>> than a village if it weren't for the huge cathedral which takes
>> up about the same area as the populated space. I believe the
>> population is about 1500.
>
> Say, if it's the case that there are some "cities" in the UK that
> only have city status because of the presence of an Anglican
> cathedral, and if it's the case that having city status confers
> certain significant benefits (e.g. money or public works or
> something), is this not a concrete example of how the absence of
> separation between Church and State even today leads to real
> unfairness in Britain?
Yes, it is a concrete example.
> I say this because UK persons here have in the past argued that
> the official status of the Church of England (in England, at any
> rate) is completely insignificant, as the Church is totally
> self-supporting and all.
Hmmmm. I do hope you intended that to read "_some_ UK persons here
have in the past argued..."
> That is, are there some small cities, towns by any reasonable
> description, which have an unfair advantage over
> similarly-situated towns in England/Britain, solely because the UK
> has chosen to recognize a particular state religion?
The short answer is "yes".
The longer answer, of course, is that the huge socio-economic
advantages of having a cathedral in your wee town greatly outweigh the
minor advantages of city status.
But, yes: you get those minor advantages thrown in, too.
--
Cheers,
Harvey
John Hall
>This cathedral door thing doesn't swing both ways. If a small town has
>an cathedral of the Established church, it gains civic status as a city
>-- but there are other ways of becoming a city, and these are unrelated
>to whether or not there's a cathedral in the place.
I think I recall reading that a city is a city if it has a (Royal?)
Charter that proclaims it to be a city. At the time I was living in
The City & County of Bristol, but I can't recall if their boundaries
were identical, or if the City was within the County of the same name.
--
John W Hall <wweexxss...@telusplanet.net>
Calgary, Alberta, Canada.
"Helping People Prosper in the Information Age"
Matti Lamprhey
> Richard Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Say, if it's the case that there are some "cities" in the UK that
> > only have city status because of the presence of an Anglican
> > cathedral, and if it's the case that having city status confers
> > certain significant benefits (e.g. money or public works or
> > something), is this not a concrete example of how the absence of
> > separation between Church and State even today leads to real
> > unfairness in Britain?
>
> Yes, it is a concrete example.
I demur, because I don't believe that there ARE any "significant benefits"
of being a city, per se. If anyone can provide a list of monies or public
works which are available to a city by virtue of its city status alone, I'd
be interested in seeing it.
Matti
-- living in the month-old City of Newport
Don Aitken
<harve...@REMOVETHISntlworld.com> wrote:
>I espied that on 03 May 2002, Richard Fontana
><rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 3 May 2002, david56 wrote:
>>
>>> Jonathan Jordan wrote:
>>>>
>>>> There is a full list of official cities at
>>>> http://www.lcd.gov.uk/constitution/city/citygj.htm#part6
>>>
>>> Since the original questioner was interested in size, it's worth
>>> pointing out that St David's in Wales wouldn't qualify as more
>>> than a village if it weren't for the huge cathedral which takes
>>> up about the same area as the populated space. I believe the
>>> population is about 1500.
>>
>> Say, if it's the case that there are some "cities" in the UK that
>> only have city status because of the presence of an Anglican
>> cathedral,
True.
>> and if it's the case that having city status confers
>> certain significant benefits (e.g. money or public works or
>> something),
Not true. City status brings no advantages whatever, other than a warm
feeling of self-congratulation among the tiny minority who take an
interest in local government affairs. No money, no increased
governmental powers, nothing.
>> is this not a concrete example of how the absence of
>> separation between Church and State even today leads to real
>> unfairness in Britain?
>
>Yes, it is a concrete example.
>
No it isn't.
>> I say this because UK persons here have in the past argued that
>> the official status of the Church of England (in England, at any
>> rate) is completely insignificant, as the Church is totally
>> self-supporting and all.
>
>Hmmmm. I do hope you intended that to read "_some_ UK persons here
>have in the past argued..."
>
>> That is, are there some small cities, towns by any reasonable
>> description, which have an unfair advantage over
>> similarly-situated towns in England/Britain, solely because the UK
>> has chosen to recognize a particular state religion?
>
>The short answer is "yes".
>
But, since no new Anglican dioceses have been created in over a
century, and most are over 500 years old (St. David's is 1400 years
old), not a matter of great contemporary relevance.
>The longer answer, of course, is that the huge socio-economic
>advantages of having a cathedral in your wee town greatly outweigh the
>minor advantages of city status.
>
Well, OK, if you are talking about Canterbury, for example. But
exactly what "huge socio-economic advantage" does Blackburn gain from
the presence of its cathedral?
>But, yes: you get those minor advantages thrown in, too.
Like what?
--
Don Aitken
AlbertPeasemarch
> as I'm aware Tideswell's church is not actually a cathedral, but is "known
> locally" as the Cathedral of the Peak
Tideswell is only a village, but not a particularly small one. It is
much smaller than Wells, however, which is a market town. Or market
city, I suppose.
The one that astonishes me is St David's, in Wales, which is
village-sized but quite definitely a city. The Cathedral is actually a
substantial building, not much smaller than the one at Wells, but it
is built in a deep hole in the ground, and you cannot see it from a
distance. I suppose it was placed like that to prevent it being seen
by marauders from the sea nearby. I doubt I'll ever set eyes on a more
nondescript city than St David's. There isn't even a fish-and-chip
shop.
Cathedrals themselves range surprisingly in size. The one in Oxford,
despite the magnificence of the city, is merely a little thing buried
in a college, far smaller than most of the churches in the city.
My favourite cathedral is the one at Lincoln, because its sculpture of
the Virgin Mary weeps late at night.
Albert Peasemarch.
Tony Cooper
| That is, are there some small cities, towns by any reasonable
| description, which have an unfair advantage over similarly-situated
| towns in England/Britain, solely because the UK has chosen to
recognize
| a particular state religion?
|
I don't want to sound like the village idiot, but what is the
advantage? What is the gain?
As they say, being from a city - instead of a village - and a euro,
will get you a cuppa.
--
Tony Cooper aka: Tony_Co...@Yahoo.com
Provider of Jots & Tittles
Tony Cooper
| I demur, because I don't believe that there ARE any "significant
benefits"
| of being a city, per se. If anyone can provide a list of monies or
public
| works which are available to a city by virtue of its city status
alone, I'd
| be interested in seeing it.
|
What are the requirements for being a contestant in the "tidy towns"
competition?
Richard Fontana
> "Richard Fontana" <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote in message
>
> | That is, are there some small cities, towns by any reasonable
> | description, which have an unfair advantage over similarly-situated
> | towns in England/Britain, solely because the UK has chosen to
> recognize
> | a particular state religion?
> |
>
> I don't want to sound like the village idiot, but what is the
> advantage? What is the gain?
> As they say, being from a city - instead of a village - and a euro,
> will get you a cuppa.
If there's no advantage, then why is it that so many UK towns seem so
intent on gaining city status? There has to be something of value in
it.
Steve Hayes
>
>Also mentioned is that Stonehenge's stones came from Wales, 240 miles
>away. Now I might be really confused he :-/ but I just got to ask...
>Where did these whales get the stones from?
From the offshore irelands, of course.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/steve.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Padraig Breathnach
>If there's no advantage, then why is it that so many UK towns seem so
>intent on gaining city status? There has to be something of value in
>it.
It might have appeal for members of the local authority. Being a
member of a city corporation seems to have more status than being a
town councillor. Is a politician's ego an important driving force?
The average citizen might not give a fig.
Newry, in Northern Ireland, has recently been chosen for the award of
city status. The only reaction I have heard is that it will cost to
football club money to rebrand: they call themselves "Newry Town".
PB
Matti Lamprhey
>
> If there's no advantage, then why is it that so many UK towns seem so
> intent on gaining city status? There has to be something of value in
> it.
Perhaps because they assume that there has to be something of value in it.
It probably qualifies as a self-fulfilling assumption.
Matti
Matti Lamprhey
> "Matti Lamprhey" <matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote in message
>
> | I demur, because I don't believe that there ARE any "significant
> | benefits" of being a city, per se. If anyone can provide a list of
> | monies or public works which are available to a city by virtue of its
> | city status alone, I'd be interested in seeing it.
>
> What are the requirements for being a contestant in the "tidy towns"
> competition?
It's a wild guess, but possibly tidiness and town status. Perhaps that
contest will come to Britain one wet Wednesday. Till then, we concentrate
on best-keptness: a different thing entirely.
Matti
John Dean
"Padraig Breathnach" <padr...@iol.ie> wrote in message
news:lg87duki5rsgbpuqp...@4ax.com...
No problem. Manchester United is full of bickering and dissension, Chelsea
call themselves after a suburb of London despite not having an English
player in the team, Hamilton Academicals was full of illiterates, Sheffield
Wednesday play on Saturdays, Accrington Stanley were founded by a man named
Norman, Wolverhampton Wanderers rarely leave the Midlands, Preston North
End's ground is in the South of the town, Charlton Athletic are not
particularly fit, Nottingham Forest play in a clearing and Bristol City
players are flat-chested.
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
Mickwick
>"Richard Fontana" <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote...
I've heard a councillor say that city status would give prestige to his
town's products in parts of the world that have never heard of [Milton
Keynes or wherever]. It wasn't very convincing. 'Buy our widgets -
they're from a town called Milton Keynes!' vs. 'Buy our widgets -
they're from a city called Milton Keynes!'
Personally, I think the councillors want to be able to twin their town
with places that have more and more exciting bars and night clubs.
--
Mickwick
Tony Cooper
| > What are the requirements for being a contestant in the "tidy
towns"
| > competition?
|
| It's a wild guess, but possibly tidiness and town status. Perhaps
that
| contest will come to Britain one wet Wednesday. Till then, we
concentrate
| on best-keptness: a different thing entirely.
|
Does the UK have a version of the "Tidy Town" award? I love that
term. It makes me think of a diarama or model railroad train layout.
Whenever I would drive through a place with a plaque proclaiming it a
"Tidy Town" I would pay special attention to the look of the people.
Were they tidy looking? No shirt-tails untucked, no cowlicks
unslicked down, no missing buttons? Tidy towns should have tidy
people.
Even the tidiest of towns, with the tidiest of people, must have at
least one resident that absolutely refuses to be tidy. Some shambling
reprobate that wants to go to the pub with his fly half-buttoned, his
brogues untied, and crumpled Taytos bags spilling out of his pockets.
Do the Gardai hustle him back home?
The following is a report from a town near Limerick:
ARDPATRICK
THE village of Ardpatrick featured in the top three in the county, in
the recent Tidy Town's Competition, Templeglantine and ourselves
sharing third spot with 233 marks. There were two adjudication dates,
the first on July 7, and the second on August 4. The adjudicator
described the village as looking resplendent on both visits, the
church and its grounds were in immaculate condition, as was Bishop
Murphy Park. Commercial and private dwellings were all presented in a
most impressive way, a number of slight improvements were suggested
with regard to weed growth in some areas. The village was litter free
on both days. The entrance roads from all directions were very
impressive, with hedgerows and grass margins well maintained.
In general public spaces and all landscaped areas were described as
beautifully maintained, the colourful marigold island at the creamery
cross roads was particularly admired.
The adjudicator described the village as a credit to the local
community and a nice place to relax in.
For those of you less interested in Hiberno-Whatever news, the same
article describes:
The death has occurred of Connie Cremin of Farran, Ardagh. He was a
retired vet who worked at Shannon Meats, Rathkeale for a number of
years. He was laid to rest in Ardagh Cemetery on September 8. Sympathy
has been extended to his family, relations and friends. The death has
also taken place of Jim Ahern late of Rooshagh in London. Sympathy has
also been extended to Paddy Molyneaux and family, Ardagh following the
death of his niece Deirdre Molyneaux of Farrihy, Broadford. She was
only 18 years old may they all rest in peace.
I don't think I've ever seen the style of "The death has occurred...."
before.
R J Valentine
} "Richard Fontana" <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote in message
}
} | That is, are there some small cities, towns by any reasonable
} | description, which have an unfair advantage over similarly-situated
} | towns in England/Britain, solely because the UK has chosen to recognize
} | a particular state religion?
} |
}
} I don't want to sound like the village idiot, but what is the
} advantage? What is the gain?
} As they say, being from a city - instead of a village - and a euro,
} will get you a cuppa.
If you were the city idiot you might take it more seriously.
--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:r...@smart.net>
Richard Fontana
>For those of you less interested in Hiberno-Whatever news, the same
>article describes:
>
>The death has occurred of Connie Cremin of Farran, Ardagh. He was a
>retired vet who worked at Shannon Meats, Rathkeale for a number of
>years. He was laid to rest in Ardagh Cemetery on September 8. Sympathy
>has been extended to his family, relations and friends. The death has
>also taken place of Jim Ahern late of Rooshagh in London. Sympathy has
>also been extended to Paddy Molyneaux and family, Ardagh following the
>death of his niece Deirdre Molyneaux of Farrihy, Broadford. She was
>only 18 years old may they all rest in peace.
>
>I don't think I've ever seen the style of "The death has occurred...."
>before.
Me neither, Coop. Now I'll wait to see what Padraig says but *that* might
be "Hiberno-English", and not "Hiberno-Britic(TM)". (If it turns out to
be Hiberno-Britic(TM) that will really be shocking.)
BTW Coop, just because "the death has occurred of ..." *might* be
Hiberno-English does *not* mean you *have* to start using it.
rzed
"R J Valentine" <r...@smart.net> wrote in message
news:ud87qnp...@corp.supernews.com...
we lived in Chicago."
Tony Cooper
| Me neither, Coop. Now I'll wait to see what Padraig says but *that*
might
| be "Hiberno-English", and not "Hiberno-Britic(TM)". (If it turns
out to
| be Hiberno-Britic(TM) that will really be shocking.)
|
| BTW Coop, just because "the death has occurred of ..." *might* be
| Hiberno-English does *not* mean you *have* to start using it.
|
One seldom gets to report on the death of people in this NG. However,
I might note that the death has occurred of certain phrases or usages
in the language.
Padraig Breathnach
It's fairly standard local newspaper and local radio parlance in
Ireland. Just a local instance of sloppy journalism, of the sort which
we see all over the world. You know the sort of stuff: "he sent the
ball crashing to the back of the net" or "his conduct of the
negotiations on inshore krill fisheries in the north sea was an
exercise in statesmanship of the highest order".
PB
Michael J Hardy
> Richard Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
> > If there's no advantage, then why is it that so many UK towns seem so
> > intent on gaining city status? There has to be something of value in
> > it.
>
> It might have appeal for members of the local authority. Being a
> member of a city corporation seems to have more status than being a
> town councillor. Is a politician's ego an important driving force?
Is it just ego, or could having that on your CV help you get
a job. If so, could that be the main reason they want city status?
Mike Hardy
Alan Jones
> On Fri, 3 May 2002, david56 wrote:
>
> > Jonathan Jordan wrote:
> > >
> > > There is a full list of official cities at
> > > http://www.lcd.gov.uk/constitution/city/citygj.htm#part6
> That is, are there some small cities, towns by any reasonable
> description, which have an unfair advantage over similarly-situated
> towns in England/Britain, solely because the UK has chosen to recognize
> a particular state religion?
The site Jonathan mentioned says clearly that a cathedral is not a
requirement, and I believe that e.g. Birmingham was a city before its main
parish church was elevated to cathedral status. The place must either have a
Royal Charter or possess an Ancient Prescriptive Right to the title of city.
Most of the cities with ancient cathedrals were cities long before the
Reformation, so the position of the C of E as the State church isn't an
issue. Someone mentioned St David's. The Church in Wales is no longer
established, any more than is the US Episcopal Church: both pay a sort of
pseudo-papal deference to the Archbishop of Canterbury, but not to the Queen
as Supreme Governor of the Church of England. I suppose the tiny city of St
David's acquired its title as a busy focus of pilgrimage in the Middle Ages
and before.
Alan Jones
Don Aitken
wrote:
>rfon...@wesleyan.edu (Richard Fontana) wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 4 May 2002 12:32:34 -0400 Tony Cooper wrote:
>>
>>>For those of you less interested in Hiberno-Whatever news, the same
>>>article describes:
>>>
>>>The death has occurred of Connie Cremin of Farran, Ardagh. He was a
>>>retired vet who worked at Shannon Meats, Rathkeale for a number of
>>>years. He was laid to rest in Ardagh Cemetery on September 8. Sympathy
>>>has been extended to his family, relations and friends. The death has
>>>also taken place of Jim Ahern late of Rooshagh in London. Sympathy has
>>>also been extended to Paddy Molyneaux and family, Ardagh following the
>>>death of his niece Deirdre Molyneaux of Farrihy, Broadford. She was
>>>only 18 years old may they all rest in peace.
>>>
>>>I don't think I've ever seen the style of "The death has occurred...."
>>>before.
>>
>>Me neither, Coop. Now I'll wait to see what Padraig says but *that* might
>>be "Hiberno-English", and not "Hiberno-Britic(TM)". (If it turns out to
>>be Hiberno-Britic(TM) that will really be shocking.)
>>
>>BTW Coop, just because "the death has occurred of ..." *might* be
>>Hiberno-English does *not* mean you *have* to start using it.
>>
>It's fairly standard local newspaper and local radio parlance in
>Ireland.
It used to be fairly common in England too, but I don't recall seeing
it recently.
> Just a local instance of sloppy journalism, of the sort which
>we see all over the world.
Why do you call it "sloppy"?
--
Don Aitken
Don Aitken
Being a member of a local authority, at whatever level, does not make
you more employable. Apart from anything else, such positions are
unpaid, and the employers of councillors are required by statute to
give them time off for their public duties. Local government has zero
prestige in the UK.
--
Don Aitken
Don Aitken
wrote:
The other part of the story is that no place is ever *deprived* of the
title of city, once awarded.
--
Don Aitken
John Dean
"Don Aitken" <don-a...@freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:3cd45cba...@news.freeuk.net...
> On 04 May 2002 20:34:05 GMT, mjh...@mit.edu (Michael J Hardy) wrote:
>
> > Padraig Breathnach (padr...@iol.ie) wrote:
> >
> >> Richard Fontana <rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >> > If there's no advantage, then why is it that so many UK towns seem so
> >> > intent on gaining city status? There has to be something of value
in
> >> > it.
> >>
> >> It might have appeal for members of the local authority. Being a
> >> member of a city corporation seems to have more status than being a
> >> town councillor. Is a politician's ego an important driving force?
> >
> > Is it just ego, or could having that on your CV help you get
> >a job. If so, could that be the main reason they want city status?
> >
> Being a member of a local authority, at whatever level, does not make
> you more employable. Apart from anything else, such positions are
> unpaid,
You almost had me feeling sorry for them. Councillors get a basic
allowance - in Oxfordshire currently 6,000 UKP per annum, not including
travel and subsistence. Councillors with special responsibility get more.
Which means that, unless they spend more than around 27 hours a week on
Council business, Councillors are getting more than the minimum wage for
their time. Oh, except the money isn't taxable. Oh, except they don't pay
their own travelling expenses. Oh, except they don't have to buy their own
meals. I've had dealings with quite a few Councillors in my time, for
Oxford City and County, and I've never known one that wasn't able to hold
down a full-time job, if they wished, in addition to their Council duties.
Padraig Breathnach
>On Sat, 04 May 2002 19:50:35 GMT, Padraig Breathnach <padr...@iol.ie>
>wrote:
>
>>>On Sat, 4 May 2002 12:32:34 -0400 Tony Cooper wrote:
>>>
>>>>For those of you less interested in Hiberno-Whatever news, the same
>>>>article describes:
>>>>
>>>>The death has occurred of Connie Cremin of Farran, Ardagh. He was a
>>>>retired vet who worked at Shannon Meats, Rathkeale for a number of
>>>>years. He was laid to rest in Ardagh Cemetery on September 8. Sympathy
>>>>has been extended to his family, relations and friends. The death has
>>>>also taken place of Jim Ahern late of Rooshagh in London. Sympathy has
>>>>also been extended to Paddy Molyneaux and family, Ardagh following the
>>>>death of his niece Deirdre Molyneaux of Farrihy, Broadford. She was
>>>>only 18 years old may they all rest in peace.
>>>>
>>>>I don't think I've ever seen the style of "The death has occurred...."
>>>>before.
>>>
>>It's fairly standard local newspaper and local radio parlance in
>>Ireland.
>
>It used to be fairly common in England too, but I don't recall seeing
>it recently.
>
>> Just a local instance of sloppy journalism, of the sort which
>>we see all over the world.
>
>Why do you call it "sloppy"?
I call it sloppy because of how the expression is used. On its own,
it's an inoffensive, albeit slightly pompous, phrasing. But Tony
provides us with context.
I see a type of writing which is done without much thought or effort,
but where the writer wants to create the impression of "good writing".
This is often done by the use of big words where perfectly serviceable
small words are available, by using elaborate phrasing for simple
ideas, and by using stock phrases. Read the passage. Is it good
writing?
Think of the role of a local newspaper in binding together rural and
small-town communities. Is such a purpose served here? Does this
writing show respect for the dead or for the living?
I have spent more time considering it than some lazy hack in west
Limerick spent writing it. I have engaged my mind more than he did. He
got paid for writing like that. You get my outrage for free.
PB
Rick Kitchen
> No problem. Manchester United is full of bickering and dissension, Chelsea
> call themselves after a suburb of London despite not having an English
> player in the team, Hamilton Academicals was full of illiterates, Sheffield
> Wednesday play on Saturdays, Accrington Stanley were founded by a man named
> Norman, Wolverhampton Wanderers rarely leave the Midlands, Preston North
> End's ground is in the South of the town, Charlton Athletic are not
> particularly fit, Nottingham Forest play in a clearing and Bristol City
> players are flat-chested.
Please explain what flat-chested has to do with Bristol City?
Rick Kitchen
Tony Cooper
| Please explain what flat-chested has to do with Bristol City?
"Bristols" are a slang term for diddies.
John Hall
wrote:
>Please explain what flat-chested has to do with Bristol City?
Bristol Cities - rhyming slang.
--
John W Hall <wweexxss...@telusplanet.net>
Calgary, Alberta, Canada.
"Helping People Prosper in the Information Age"
Simon R. Hughes
>
> I have spent more time considering it than some lazy hack in west
> Limerick spent writing it. I have engaged my mind more than he did. He
> got paid for writing like that. You get my outrage for free.
A grateful world salutes you!
--
Simon R. Hughes
david56
>
> I espied that on 03 May 2002, david56 <bass.a...@ntlworld.com>
> wrote:
> > Don Aitken wrote:
>
> -snip-
>
> >> A cathedral of what denomination? Only Anglican cathedrals are
> >> relevant to the "city" issue. Arundel has a Roman Catholic
> >> cathedral, but it is not a city.
> >
> > I've often wondered about this. Salford is a city but only
> > possesses a Roman Catholic Cathedral (less than a mile from
> > Manchester Cathedral).
>
> As he says: only cathedrals of the Established church/Anglican
> cathedrals grant a place city status. RC cathedrals have no bearing on
> municipal status.
Indeed, so does anybody know why Salford is a city? It's on the list.
--
David
I say what it occurs to me to say.
The address is valid today, but I will change it to keep ahead of the
spammers.
david56
>
> On Fri, 3 May 2002, david56 wrote:
>
> > Jonathan Jordan wrote:
> > >
> > > There is a full list of official cities at
> > > http://www.lcd.gov.uk/constitution/city/citygj.htm#part6
> >
> > pointing out that St David's in Wales wouldn't qualify as more than a
> > village if it weren't for the huge cathedral which takes up about the
> > same area as the populated space. I believe the population is about
> > 1500.
>
> Say, if it's the case that there are some "cities" in the UK that only
> have city status because of the presence of an Anglican cathedral, and
> if it's the case that having city status confers certain significant
> benefits (e.g. money or public works or something), is this not a
> concrete example of how the absence of separation between Church and
> State even today leads to real unfairness in Britain? I say this
> because UK persons here have in the past argued that the official
> status of the Church of England (in England, at any rate) is completely
> insignificant, as the Church is totally self-supporting and all.
The status of the CoE is not insignificant - they have a reasonable
number of bishops in the House of Lords by right (12?).
>
> That is, are there some small cities, towns by any reasonable
> description, which have an unfair advantage over similarly-situated
> towns in England/Britain, solely because the UK has chosen to recognize
> a particular state religion?
I don't believe there is any practical advantage in being a city, other
than the right to use the title. St David's hasn't grown much in the
last 200 years in spite of its city status.
david56
>
> No problem. Manchester United is full of bickering and dissension, Chelsea
> call themselves after a suburb of London despite not having an English
> player in the team, Hamilton Academicals was full of illiterates, Sheffield
> Wednesday play on Saturdays, Accrington Stanley were founded by a man named
> Norman, Wolverhampton Wanderers rarely leave the Midlands, Preston North
> End's ground is in the South of the town, Charlton Athletic are not
> particularly fit, Nottingham Forest play in a clearing and Bristol City
> players are flat-chested.
Manchester United's ground is not situate in the city of Manchester, but
in the borough of Trafford. As is Lancashire Cricket Club. Manchester
City's grounds (old and new) are both in Manchester though.
Padraig Breathnach
>The status of the CoE is not insignificant - they have a reasonable
>number of bishops in the House of Lords by right (12?).
>
Some people think that to be unreasonable.
PB
david56
Some people might replace "reasonable" by "not inconsiderable" then.
John Dean
"Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ab2b3n$epid3$1...@ID-113505.news.dfncis.de...
> "Rick Kitchen" <corv...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
>
> | Please explain what flat-chested has to do with Bristol City?
>
> "Bristols" are a slang term for diddies.
>
Peri Gilpin (Daphne & Roz from 'Frasier) founded their own Production
Company and, on Jane (East Grinstead) Leeve's advice called it Bristol
Cities. Allegedly, no-one in Hollywood gets the joke.
Padraig Breathnach
>Padraig Breathnach wrote:
>>
>> david56 <bass.a...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>> >The status of the CoE is not insignificant - they have a reasonable
>> >number of bishops in the House of Lords by right (12?).
>> >
>> Some people think that to be unreasonable.
>
>Some people might replace "reasonable" by "not inconsiderable" then.
That seems reasonable to me.
PB
Don Aitken
<bass.a...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>Harvey V wrote:
>>
>> I espied that on 03 May 2002, david56 <bass.a...@ntlworld.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Don Aitken wrote:
>>
>> -snip-
>>
>> >> A cathedral of what denomination? Only Anglican cathedrals are
>> >> relevant to the "city" issue. Arundel has a Roman Catholic
>> >> cathedral, but it is not a city.
>> >
>> > I've often wondered about this. Salford is a city but only
>> > possesses a Roman Catholic Cathedral (less than a mile from
>> > Manchester Cathedral).
>>
>> As he says: only cathedrals of the Established church/Anglican
>> cathedrals grant a place city status. RC cathedrals have no bearing on
>> municipal status.
>
>Indeed, so does anybody know why Salford is a city? It's on the list.
>
The rule is that a place with an Anglican cathedral is a city, not
vice versa. No city created since the late 19th century has one.
--
Don Aitken
Garry J. Vass
> call themselves after a suburb of London despite not having an English
> player in the team, Hamilton Academicals was full of illiterates,
Sheffield
> Wednesday play on Saturdays, Accrington Stanley were founded by a man
named
> Norman, Wolverhampton Wanderers rarely leave the Midlands, Preston North
> End's ground is in the South of the town, Charlton Athletic are not
> particularly fit, Nottingham Forest play in a clearing and Bristol City
> players are flat-chested.
>
Brilliant! Love it!
Don't forget that Liverpool's stadium is actually in Everton, and Everton's
stadium is actually in Liverpool. Or so I've been told. I wouldn't know,
I'm strictly a ManU / Chelsea / Arsenal / Spurs / Aston Villa / Owens /
Campbell fan myself.
GJV
--
The more people I meet, the more I love my battleaxe
John Dean
"Garry J. Vass" <ga...@totally-official.com> wrote in message
news:ab40i4$f5va3$1...@ID-134717.news.dfncis.de...
If you support Man U AND CFC then you'll go bipolar over
http://www.nicholas.harrison.mcmail.com/cfcsong2.htm
Oh, BTW. Plymouth Argyle (WTF?)
John Dean
"david56" <bass.a...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:3CD50E5F...@ntlworld.com...
> John Dean wrote:
> >
> > No problem. Manchester United is full of bickering and dissension,
Chelsea
> > call themselves after a suburb of London despite not having an English
> > player in the team, Hamilton Academicals was full of illiterates,
Sheffield
> > Wednesday play on Saturdays, Accrington Stanley were founded by a man
named
> > Norman, Wolverhampton Wanderers rarely leave the Midlands, Preston North
> > End's ground is in the South of the town, Charlton Athletic are not
> > particularly fit, Nottingham Forest play in a clearing and Bristol City
> > players are flat-chested.
>
> Manchester United's ground is not situate in the city of Manchester, but
> in the borough of Trafford. As is Lancashire Cricket Club. Manchester
> City's grounds (old and new) are both in Manchester though.
>
on the Railway from Manchester's Oxford Rd Station was to watch those not in
the know pile out at Old Trafford Station and start asking 'Which way to the
Cricket ground?' as the train pulled out bound for Warwick Road, which was
the stop next to the Ground.
M.J.Powell
>Does the UK have a version of the "Tidy Town" award? I love that
>term.
We have Tidy Villages.
This village has, at best, come 19th out of 20.
snip
>
>Even the tidiest of towns, with the tidiest of people, must have at
>least one resident that absolutely refuses to be tidy. Some shambling
>reprobate that wants to go to the pub with his fly half-buttoned, his
>brogues untied, and crumpled Taytos bags spilling out of his pockets.
True. I am that representative in this village, which accounts for the
low score. However, they still talk to me.
>For those of you less interested in Hiberno-Whatever news, the same
>article describes:
>
>The death has occurred of Connie Cremin of Farran, Ardagh. He was a
>retired vet who worked at Shannon Meats, Rathkeale for a number of
>years. He was laid to rest in Ardagh Cemetery on September 8. Sympathy
>has been extended to his family, relations and friends. The death has
>also taken place of Jim Ahern late of Rooshagh in London. Sympathy has
>also been extended to Paddy Molyneaux and family, Ardagh following the
>death of his niece Deirdre Molyneaux of Farrihy, Broadford. She was
>only 18 years old may they all rest in peace.
>
>I don't think I've ever seen the style of "The death has occurred...."
>before.
It's fairly commonplace over here.
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
Laura F Spira
I had always assumed that they were kitted out in those fancy jumpers. I
tried to find an example and stumbled upon this:
http://www.vintageknits.com/men.html
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Matti Lamprhey
>
> Oh, BTW. Plymouth Argyle (WTF?)
Are you suggesting they should play on Wensday, Thursday and Friday?
Matti
Don Aitken
Until they, rather unsportingly, renamed the stations a few years ago.
--
Don Aitken
Brett Paul Dunbar
Jones <a...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>Most of the cities with ancient cathedrals were cities long before the
>Reformation, so the position of the C of E as the State church isn't an
>issue. Someone mentioned St David's. The Church in Wales is no longer
>established, any more than is the US Episcopal Church: both pay a sort of
>pseudo-papal deference to the Archbishop of Canterbury, but not to the Queen
>as Supreme Governor of the Church of England. I suppose the tiny city of St
>David's acquired its title as a busy focus of pilgrimage in the Middle Ages
>and before.
No it didn't, St David's only gained City status in 1994.
--
Great Internet Mersenne Prime Search http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm
Brett Paul Dunbar
To email me, use reply-to address
AlbertPeasemarch
> least one resident that absolutely refuses to be tidy. Some shambling
> reprobate that wants to go to the pub with his fly half-buttoned, his
> brogues untied, and crumpled Taytos bags spilling out of his pockets.
I saw a television programme about Hampstead Garden Village, in
London. There they employ a warden to go round telling everybody to
keep up standards. One woman reported another for shaking her duvets
out of the window. The saddest thing for me was when this snotty
official told a dear old lady to stop feeding the pigeons because they
spoilt the look of the village. They had an aesthetically displeasing
habit of standing on rooftops.
Is there not a town in Florida, called something like "Celebration",
where similar rules and regulations are enforced?
Albert Peasemarch.
John Dean
"Laura F Spira" <la...@DRAGONspira.u-net.com> wrote in message
news:3CD58F87...@DRAGONspira.u-net.com...
> John Dean wrote:
> >
> > "Garry J. Vass" <ga...@totally-official.com> wrote in message
> > news:ab40i4$f5va3$1...@ID-134717.news.dfncis.de...
> > > "John Dean" <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote in message
> > > news:ab0pm9$18u$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > > >
> > > > No problem. Manchester United is full of bickering and dissension,
> > >
> > Everton's
> > > stadium is actually in Liverpool. Or so I've been told. I wouldn't
know,
> > > I'm strictly a ManU / Chelsea / Arsenal / Spurs / Aston Villa / Owens
/
> > > Campbell fan myself.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > If you support Man U AND CFC then you'll go bipolar over
> > http://www.nicholas.harrison.mcmail.com/cfcsong2.htm
> >
> > Oh, BTW. Plymouth Argyle (WTF?)
> >
>
> I had always assumed that they were kitted out in those fancy jumpers. I
> tried to find an example and stumbled upon this:
> http://www.vintageknits.com/men.html
Well! I never knew you took an interest in gay porn.
Matti Lamprhey
> Alan Jones <a...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>
> >Most of the cities with ancient cathedrals were cities long before the
> >Reformation, so the position of the C of E as the State church isn't an
> >issue. Someone mentioned St David's. The Church in Wales is no longer
> >established, any more than is the US Episcopal Church: both pay a sort of
> >pseudo-papal deference to the Archbishop of Canterbury, but not to the
> >Queen as Supreme Governor of the Church of England. I suppose the tiny
> >city of St David's acquired its title as a busy focus of pilgrimage in
> >the Middle Ages and before.
>
> No it didn't, St David's only gained City status in 1994.
I was amazed at this, but it was confirmed together with much other
interesting stuff about Britain's cities at:
http://www.lcd.gov.uk/constitution/city/citygj.htm
However, I'm still unsure of Tony's claim that St David's has no chippy.
Matti
Matti Lamprhey
>
> However, I'm still unsure of Tony's claim that St David's has no chippy.
Sorry -- that was Albert Peasemarch, not Tony.
Matti
Matti Lamprhey
>
> However, I'm still unsure of [Albert]'s claim that St David's has no
> chippy.
"Dyfed Cafe (phone: 720250), in the square, serves lunches and suppers and
also has a fish and chip shop if you want takeaway."
OK, I can go to sleep now.
Matti
Alan Jones
"Brett Paul Dunbar" <br...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:AFyEJkNM...@dimetrodon.demon.co.uk...
> In message <CtYA8.17511$%1.19...@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>, Alan
> Jones <a...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>
> >Most of the cities with ancient cathedrals were cities long before the
> >Reformation, so the position of the C of E as the State church isn't an
> >issue. Someone mentioned St David's. The Church in Wales is no longer
> >established, any more than is the US Episcopal Church: both pay a sort of
> >pseudo-papal deference to the Archbishop of Canterbury, but not to the
Queen
> >as Supreme Governor of the Church of England. I suppose the tiny city of
St
> >David's acquired its title as a busy focus of pilgrimage in the Middle
Ages
> >and before.
>
> No it didn't, St David's only gained City status in 1994.
Thanks - as you see, I didn't know that. I wrote that a city didn't have to
have a cathedral. Now you show that a cathedral doesn't make a city, since,
if it did, St David's would automatically have had city status before the
disestablishment of the Church in Wales. That seems to dispose of the link
some have postulated between the State religion and the acquiring of city
status.
Alan Jones
Don Aitken
(AlbertPeasemarch) wrote:
>"Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<ab1296> Even the tidiest of towns, with the tidiest of people, must have at
>> least one resident that absolutely refuses to be tidy. Some shambling
>> reprobate that wants to go to the pub with his fly half-buttoned, his
>> brogues untied, and crumpled Taytos bags spilling out of his pockets.
>> Do the Gardai hustle him back home?
>
>I saw a television programme about Hampstead Garden Village, in
>London. There they employ a warden to go round telling everybody to
>keep up standards. One woman reported another for shaking her duvets
>out of the window. The saddest thing for me was when this snotty
>official told a dear old lady to stop feeding the pigeons because they
>spoilt the look of the village. They had an aesthetically displeasing
>habit of standing on rooftops.
>
That's Hampstead Garden *Suburb*. It dates from a time (1900ish) when
a suburb was the latest, coolest place to live, while a village was
merely an old-fashioned grungy backwater. Now that the fashion has
changed, I wouldn't be surprised it its inhabitants have now decided
that the suburb should be a village, but they're wrong.
--
Don Aitken
david56
I'm not sure. The two stadia are within ball kicking distance (well,
less than a mile, anyway). Liverpool's ground is very slightly nearer
to the city centre, but it's also slightly closer to the town of Everton
than Everton's ground.
david56
I see the proof, but they certainly thought they were a city in the 70s
when we used to go there on holiday.
Don Aitken
<bass.a...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>Matti Lamprhey wrote:
>>
>> "Brett Paul Dunbar" <br...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote...
>> > Alan Jones <a...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>> >
>> > >Most of the cities with ancient cathedrals were cities long before the
>> > >Reformation, so the position of the C of E as the State church isn't an
>> > >issue. Someone mentioned St David's. The Church in Wales is no longer
>> > >established, any more than is the US Episcopal Church: both pay a sort of
>> > >pseudo-papal deference to the Archbishop of Canterbury, but not to the
>> > >Queen as Supreme Governor of the Church of England. I suppose the tiny
>> > >city of St David's acquired its title as a busy focus of pilgrimage in
>> > >the Middle Ages and before.
>> >
>> > No it didn't, St David's only gained City status in 1994.
>>
>> I was amazed at this, but it was confirmed together with much other
>> interesting stuff about Britain's cities at:
>> http://www.lcd.gov.uk/constitution/city/citygj.htm
>
>I see the proof, but they certainly thought they were a city in the 70s
>when we used to go there on holiday.
>
I think the LCD's view on this is bureaucratic and ahistorical. It is
true *now* that the only way of becoming a city is by royal warrant or
charter, but it was not always so. Indeed, their website admits that
there are cities by prescription (London being the best known).
Theroughout the medieval period, and for long after, the seat of a
diocesan bishop of the established church was a city, and St Davids
most certainly had this status. It may be ergued that the status was
lost when the Welsh church was disestablished in 1920, but I see no
suggestion that the any such result followed from disaetablishment in
Ireland. The LCD may think that they conferred city status in 1994,
but this is a transparent fiction. St. Davids has been a city since
the sixth century.
It seems that the citizens of St. Asaph, another Welsh episcopal city
that is not on the list, agree with me. They continue to use the term,
and nobody can stop them. See http://www.stasaph.co.uk/ (particularly
the "City Status" link).
--
Don Aitken
Geoff Butler
>On Fri, 03 May 2002 21:32:05 GMT, Harvey V wrote:
>
>>This cathedral door thing doesn't swing both ways. If a small town has
>>an cathedral of the Established church, it gains civic status as a city
>>-- but there are other ways of becoming a city, and these are unrelated
>>to whether or not there's a cathedral in the place.
>
>I think I recall reading that a city is a city if it has a (Royal?)
>Charter that proclaims it to be a city. At the time I was living in
>The City & County of Bristol, but I can't recall if their boundaries
>were identical, or if the City was within the County of the same name.
Identical boundaries - it's just one place, a city which also has the
status of a county. It doesn't matter too much these days, but it was
significant in 1373 when the Royal Charter was granted. Recently, a
couple of tinpot governments have suffered from a delusion that they
have the right to change that status, but as far as I know, a Royal
Charter is for perpetuity.
-ler
Garry J. Vass
news:cb01f3d7.02050...@posting.google.com...
> learned that a city in order to be a city must technically be the seat
Just as a side-note, this has been an absolutely *wonderful* thread, I've
learned a lot of interesting stuff. Thanks to all those who contributed!
Kind regards,
GJV
Alan Jones
"Don Aitken" <don-a...@freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:3cd53251...@news.freeuk.net...
> The rule is that a place with an Anglican cathedral is a city, not
> vice versa.
If "rule" means generally speaking, yes; but Guildford, Rochester and and
Bury St Edmunds have Anglican cathedrals and yet aren't cities.
> No city created since the late 19th century has one.
Portsmouth and Derby have Anglican cathedrals and gained city status in 1926
and 1977 respectively.
Alan Jones
Michael J Hardy
> I think I recall reading that a city is a city if it has a (Royal?)
> Charter that proclaims it to be a city. At the time I was living in
> The City & County of Bristol, but I can't recall if their boundaries
> were identical, or if the City was within the County of the same name.
In another thread, perhaps a year ago, someone asserted that
Durham is the only county in England within which there is a city
whose name is identical to that of the county. (And I think it may
also be that Durham is the only county in North Carolina within which
there is a city whose name is identical to that of the county.) So
what does that say about the City and County of Bristol?
Geoff Butler (ge...@gbutler.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> Identical boundaries - it's just one place, a city which also has
> the status of a county.
In Ontario there is said to be something called "The City of
Prince Edward County", which is an island, and which must not be
confused with Prince Edward Island, which is a province altogether
separate from Ontario (and is also an island).
Mike Hardy
John Hall
>... So what does that say about the City and County of Bristol?
>
> Geoff Butler (ge...@gbutler.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>
>> Identical boundaries - it's just one place, a city which also has
>> the status of a county.
As I read it, Durham (the city) is within but distinct from Durham
(the county), whereas Bristol is (or was) a city AND a county, i.e.
one entity with dual statuses (stati? status?).
--
John W Hall <wweexxss...@telusplanet.net>
Calgary, Alberta, Canada.
"Helping People Prosper in the Information Age"
Matti Lamprhey
> On 07 May 2002 00:35:29 GMT, mjh...@mit.edu (Michael J Hardy) wrote:
>
> >... So what does that say about the City and County of Bristol?
> >
> > Geoff Butler (ge...@gbutler.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> >
> >> Identical boundaries - it's just one place, a city which also has
> >> the status of a county.
>
> As I read it, Durham (the city) is within but distinct from Durham
> (the county), whereas Bristol is (or was) a city AND a county, i.e.
> one entity with dual statuses (stati? status?).
Do the boundaries of the city and county of Bristol coincide?
I worked in Bristol between 1983 and 1998 without ever realising that it had
county status before 1974 and after 1996.
I found this snippet on the web:
'In 1373 Edward III decreed the City and County of Bristol "was a County by
itself and separated (from the) Counties of Gloucester and Somerset and in
all things exempt ... (to be) called the County of Bristol for ever". In
1996 Bristol was made a separate ceremonial County.'
The concepts of "city" and "county" in Britain are not simple. Perhaps
someone could write this up in an article for the FAQ?
Matti
Richard Fontana
>The concepts of "city" and "county" in Britain are not simple. Perhaps
>someone could write this up in an article for the FAQ?
Good idea.
I don't think they're simple concepts anywhere else either. In the
U.S. of A. we have differing informal and official notions of
"city" and "town" and so forth (though not of "county", which only exists
in a single official sense). This is something that's often ignored
in discussions of such issues here. Whether you think of a place as a
city or a town or something else may have much to do with your
upbringing; I tend to regard as "towns" many places that other Americans
think of as "cities" because I grew up in a somewhat large city.
To me, a place can be (a) official city + informal city, or (b)
official city + informal town (there are other possibilities). What makes
something an "informal city" for me seems to be its reaching a certain
population level, population density, and some sort of
difficult-to-describe "urban character". We see something similar with
"towns", as I think Mike Hardy has observed in relating his experiences of
living in Massachusetts. "Township" seems to be like "county" in that it
only has a single official understanding; there's no such thing as a
township or a county (or a state, for that matter) in an informal sense
that differs in any way from the official sense.
Tony Cooper
|
| I don't think they're simple concepts anywhere else either. In the
| U.S. of A. we have differing informal and official notions of
| "city" and "town" and so forth (though not of "county", which only
exists
| in a single official sense).
I don't know what it means, but small populated areas once had signs
on the road coming into town that said "(Name of place) Not
Incorporated". I always assumed that "not incorporated" meant that
it was a town. If the place was incorporated it became a city with a
city charter and such. This weekend, I drove from Orlando up to
Tallahassee and back. Coming back, I took the "back way" and went
through some towns that were so small they were hard to spot. No sign
said "unincorporated", though.
A wild turkey flew in front of me, though, and almost didn't clear the
top of the car. I'd never seen a wild one before, so that made my
trip. Huge thing...I'm impressed that it even cleared for take-off.
--
Tony Cooper aka: Tony_Co...@Yahoo.com
Provider of Jots & Tittles
Jonathan Jordan
Matti Lamprhey <matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote in message
news:ab87cs$fvgc4$1...@ID-103223.news.dfncis.de...
> "John Hall" <wweexxss...@telusplanet.net> wrote...
> > On 07 May 2002 00:35:29 GMT, mjh...@mit.edu (Michael J Hardy) wrote:
> >
> > >... So what does that say about the City and County of Bristol?
> > >
> > > Geoff Butler (ge...@gbutler.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> > >
> > >> Identical boundaries - it's just one place, a city which also has
> > >> the status of a county.
> >
> > As I read it, Durham (the city) is within but distinct from Durham
> > (the county), whereas Bristol is (or was) a city AND a county, i.e.
> > one entity with dual statuses (stati? status?).
>
> Do the boundaries of the city and county of Bristol coincide?
I believe so. On the A38 as you come in to Bristol from Filton, there is a
relatively new sign stating "City and County of Bristol". Heading in the
other direction, there is a sign saying "South Gloucestershire".
>
> I worked in Bristol between 1983 and 1998 without ever realising that it
had
> county status before 1974 and after 1996.
>
> I found this snippet on the web:
> 'In 1373 Edward III decreed the City and County of Bristol "was a County
by
> itself and separated (from the) Counties of Gloucester and Somerset and in
> all things exempt ... (to be) called the County of Bristol for ever". In
> 1996 Bristol was made a separate ceremonial County.'
>
The crest of Gloucestershire County Cricket Club is the arms of the City and
County of Bristol, confusingly enough. They play most of their matches
within the boundaries of Bristol, but a few each year at Cheltenham, which
is definitely in Gloucestershire.
Swansea and Cardiff both seem to have this "City and County" status as well,
even translated into Welsh as "Dinas a Sir".
Jonathan
Don Aitken
<matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote:
>"John Hall" <wweexxss...@telusplanet.net> wrote...
>> On 07 May 2002 00:35:29 GMT, mjh...@mit.edu (Michael J Hardy) wrote:
>>
>> >... So what does that say about the City and County of Bristol?
>> >
>> > Geoff Butler (ge...@gbutler.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>> >
>> >> Identical boundaries - it's just one place, a city which also has
>> >> the status of a county.
>>
>> As I read it, Durham (the city) is within but distinct from Durham
>> (the county), whereas Bristol is (or was) a city AND a county, i.e.
>> one entity with dual statuses (stati? status?).
>
>Do the boundaries of the city and county of Bristol coincide?
>
Yes.
>I worked in Bristol between 1983 and 1998 without ever realising that it had
>county status before 1974 and after 1996.
>
These "counties of cities" were a medieval invention, the point being
that they had their own commissions of the peace and lords lieutenant.
In later times, when cities and boroughs generally had a greater
independence from the county, the distinction became purely one of
status, and a rather obscure one at that. You will not find them
listed among the historical (or geographical) counties at any date;
the idea that they had the same status was always something of a
fiction.
>I found this snippet on the web:
>'In 1373 Edward III decreed the City and County of Bristol "was a County by
>itself and separated (from the) Counties of Gloucester and Somerset and in
>all things exempt ... (to be) called the County of Bristol for ever". In
>1996 Bristol was made a separate ceremonial County.'
>
The modern concepts of "city" and "ceremonial county" can apply only
to local government areas or combinations of such areas. While the
names may be the same as those of former cities, the boundaries very
rarely are. The modern Bristol is much larger than Edward III's
creation.
>The concepts of "city" and "county" in Britain are not simple. Perhaps
>someone could write this up in an article for the FAQ?
>
Too horribly complicated for me.
--
Don Aitken
Matti Lamprhey
> "Matti Lamprhey" <matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote:
> >
> >Do the boundaries of the city and county of Bristol coincide?
> >
> Yes.
>
> >'In 1373 Edward III decreed the City and County of Bristol "was a County
> >by itself and separated (from the) Counties of Gloucester and Somerset
> >and in all things exempt ... (to be) called the County of Bristol for
> >ever". In 1996 Bristol was made a separate ceremonial County.'
> >
> The modern concepts of "city" and "ceremonial county" can apply only
> to local government areas or combinations of such areas. While the
> names may be the same as those of former cities, the boundaries very
> rarely are. The modern Bristol is much larger than Edward III's
> creation.
What do you mean by "former cities"? Surely "once a city, always a city",
even in the eyes of the Lord Chancellor's Department? And how do you
reconcile that paragraph with your statement that the boundaries of Bristol
the city and the county coincide? It was the knowledge of Bristol's massive
growth since 14thC that prompted that question of mine. Either Gloucester
and Somerset were slowly losing territory to the county of Bristol as the
city grew, or there was overlap. If the latter, then Bristol was hardly a
county.
Matti
Michael J Hardy
> On Tue, 7 May 2002 10:25:07 +0100 Matti Lamprhey wrote:
>
> >The concepts of "city" and "county" in Britain are not simple. Perhaps
> >someone could write this up in an article for the FAQ?
>
> Good idea.
We once had a thread that I started, called "Counties in England",
that lasted through perhaps 200 or more postings. Perhaps some information
from there could be used.
> I don't think they're simple concepts anywhere else either. In the
> U.S. of A. we have differing informal and official notions of
> "city" and "town" and so forth (though not of "county", which only
> exists in a single official sense).
And the official notions, and the informal notions, differ from
one state to another, as was noted in another thread I started called
"`Towns' in Massachusetts". I began by noting that in Massachusetts
every place is officially within some city or town, even unpopulated
rural areas, and that struck me as decidedly odd. In at least two
states (Louisiana and Alaska) there are no counties, but nonetheless
they have the same thing with a different name. -- Mike Hardy
R J Valentine
} Richard Fontana" <rfon...@wesleyan.edu> wrote in message
} |
} | I don't think they're simple concepts anywhere else either. In the
} | U.S. of A. we have differing informal and official notions of
} | "city" and "town" and so forth (though not of "county", which only exists
} | in a single official sense).
}
} I don't know what it means, but small populated areas once had signs
} on the road coming into town that said "(Name of place) Not
} Incorporated". I always assumed that "not incorporated" meant that
} it was a town. If the place was incorporated it became a city with a
} city charter and such. This weekend, I drove from Orlando up to
} Tallahassee and back. Coming back, I took the "back way" and went
} through some towns that were so small they were hard to spot. No sign
} said "unincorporated", though.
I lived and went to school in the incorporated village of Huntington, but
we kept the boat in the unincorporated village of Halesite (of Nathan Hale
fame), because that's where Huntington Harbor was (still is, though by now
the village may be incorporated). Both villages are in the Town of
Huntington, as is much (if not all) of Huntington Bay. The unincorporated
villages were merely named parts of the town. Generally, there are no
parts of the state that are not parts of towns (unless they are parts of
cities) or counties (unless they are parts of New Jersey).
Here in Maryland we don't really have towns as such, so my children lived
and went to elementary school in an unincorporated area of Prince George's
County near the City of Laurel (which I think is smaller than the Village
of Huntington). They did go to high school in the City of Laurel (the
oldest public high school in the county). Most everyone calls where we
live Laurel, but it's not Laurel proper, though it's served by the Laurel
Post Office and the Laurel Volunteer Fire Department and the World
Champion Laurel Rescue Squad, not to mention the Laurel Regional Hospital.
We have our own Laurel Museum, but for zoos and national aquariums and big
museums and beltways and Washington Monuments we are about equidistant
from Baltimore and Washington (which are on the outskirts of Greater
Laurel, (come on, join in) The Fourth Largest Metropolitan Area in
America).
} A wild turkey flew in front of me, though, and almost didn't clear the
} top of the car. I'd never seen a wild one before, so that made my
} trip. Huge thing...I'm impressed that it even cleared for take-off.
I'd've said "was cleared", but I'm only an ex-would-be trombone player.
Isn't there a huge cargo plane that looks like a 747 with the mumps that's
called "The Big Guppie"?
--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:r...@smart.net>
Kevin Plumley
<ga...@totally-official.com> wrote:
>"John Dean" <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote in message
>news:ab0pm9$18u$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>>
>> No problem. Manchester United is full of bickering and dissension, Chelsea
>> call themselves after a suburb of London despite not having an English
>> player in the team, Hamilton Academicals was full of illiterates,
>Sheffield
>> Wednesday play on Saturdays, Accrington Stanley were founded by a man
>named
>> Norman, Wolverhampton Wanderers rarely leave the Midlands, Preston North
>> End's ground is in the South of the town, Charlton Athletic are not
>> particularly fit, Nottingham Forest play in a clearing and Bristol City
>> players are flat-chested.
>>
>
>Brilliant! Love it!
>
>Don't forget that Liverpool's stadium is actually in Everton, and Everton's
>stadium is actually in Liverpool. Or so I've been told. I wouldn't know,
>I'm strictly a ManU / Chelsea / Arsenal / Spurs / Aston Villa / Owens /
>Campbell fan myself.
>
>GJV
>
>--
>The more people I meet, the more I love my battleaxe
But do remember that uxory in excess is bad for the eyes
>
>
>
Michael J Hardy
> I always assumed that "not incorporated" meant that it was a town.
> If the place was incorporated it became a city with a city charter
> and such.
But "towns" in Massachusetts _are_ incorporated, and so are "cities".
"Unincorporated" means there is no corporate entity, i.e., a government
of the town, but rather there is only a geographical area, whose name may
have official status. -- Mike Hardy
Don Aitken
wrote:
The third stage (SIVB) of the Saturn spacecraft, which was 58 feet
long and 22 feet in diameter, was delivered to Cape Canaveral by an
aircraft called the Super Guppy. This was a stretched version of one
called the Pregnant Guppy. I'm sure someone can give us the official
designation.
--
Don Aitken
Don Aitken
<matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote:
>"Don Aitken" <don-a...@freeuk.com> wrote...
>> The modern concepts of "city" and "ceremonial county" can apply only
>> to local government areas or combinations of such areas. While the
>> names may be the same as those of former cities, the boundaries very
>> rarely are. The modern Bristol is much larger than Edward III's
>> creation.
>
>What do you mean by "former cities"? Surely "once a city, always a city",
>even in the eyes of the Lord Chancellor's Department? And how do you
>reconcile that paragraph with your statement that the boundaries of Bristol
>the city and the county coincide? It was the knowledge of Bristol's massive
>growth since 14thC that prompted that question of mine. Either Gloucester
>and Somerset were slowly losing territory to the county of Bristol as the
>city grew, or there was overlap. If the latter, then Bristol was hardly a
>county.
>
I said this was complicated. It is true that the boundaries of the
city of Bristol were extended on several occasions, as the
continuously built-up area expanded; the same is true of most English
towns. What happened in 1974 marks a radical discontinuity, because
the basic division of the country into county areas and borough areas
was abolished, and all of the old cities and boroughs went with it. In
many cases the same name, and in some cases the same status, was given
to the new local government areas, but all of them had identical
powers with all other county districts (ignoring the complication of
the metropolitan counties, which no longer exist). An inhabitant of
the old city of Bristol may be happy to agree that the successor city,
which was a district of the county of Avon, and is now a unitary
authority and ceremonial county, is still the same city, but those of
the other places it has swallowed up may be less convinced.
This mess results from the imposition onto a system which evolved
gradually for centuries of three drastic and fundamental
reorganisations in less then thirty years.
I agree with you about the "once a city" rule, but it seems from the
cases of St. Davids and St. Asaph that the LCD do not.
--
Don Aitken
Skitt
See: http://www.allaboutguppys.com/sgt/377sgtf.htm
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
I speak English well -- I learn it from a book!
-- Manuel (Fawlty Towers)
Bob Stahl
> Tony Cooper:
>> I always assumed that "not incorporated" meant that it was a town.
>> If the place was incorporated it became a city with a city charter
>> and such.
> But "towns" in Massachusetts _are_ incorporated, and so are
> "cities". "Unincorporated" means there is no corporate entity,
> i.e., a government of the town, but rather there is only a
> geographical area, whose name may have official status.
Tony meant "village", I think.
Of course, Florida is a state in which the Director of Community
Planning is named "Sonny".
--
Bob Stahl
Jerry Friedman
> Richard Fontana" <rfon...@wesleyan.edu> wrote in message
> |
> | I don't think they're simple concepts anywhere else either. In the
> | U.S. of A. we have differing informal and official notions of
> | "city" and "town" and so forth (though not of "county", which only
> exists
> | in a single official sense).
>
> I don't know what it means, but small populated areas once had signs
> on the road coming into town that said "(Name of place) Not
> Incorporated". I always assumed that "not incorporated" meant that
> it was a town. If the place was incorporated it became a city with a
> city charter and such. This weekend, I drove from Orlando up to
> Tallahassee and back. Coming back, I took the "back way" and went
> through some towns that were so small they were hard to spot. No sign
> said "unincorporated", though.
To me a town can be much bigger than these unincorporated little
things, which I'd be tempted to call townships, pace Richard. A city,
as he says, has urban character, though the borderline (for something
that isn't a suburb) is probably around 100,000. On the other hand, I
agree that incorporation makes a settlement a city officially. My
town has a population of about 10,000, which wouldn't even make a
neighborhood in New York, but it has city limits, a city manager, city
water, and people who work for the city.
> A wild turkey flew in front of me, though, and almost didn't clear the
> top of the car. I'd never seen a wild one before, so that made my
> trip. Huge thing...I'm impressed that it even cleared for take-off.
Lucky you! I haven't seen one in years. Are you sure it was a
turkey? Just kidding.
--
Jerry Friedman
Tony Cooper
in front of me, though, and almost didn't clear the
| } top of the car. I'd never seen a wild one before, so that made my
| } trip. Huge thing...I'm impressed that it even cleared for
take-off.
|
| I'd've said "was cleared", but I'm only an ex-would-be trombone
player.
|
declares itself clear for take-off. The turkey is not noted for being
the brightest of the wild kingdom. And, by my own personal
observation, not noted for grace in flight.
| Isn't there a huge cargo plane that looks like a 747 with the mumps
that's
| called "The Big Guppie"?
There is/was some plane of that general description that has/had a
flap at the rear through which large things like tanks could be
loaded.
Tony Cooper
> Tony Cooper:
| >> I always assumed that "not incorporated" meant that it was a
town.
| >> If the place was incorporated it became a city with a city
charter
| >> and such.
| > But "towns" in Massachusetts _are_ incorporated, and so are
| > "cities". "Unincorporated" means there is no corporate entity,
| > i.e., a government of the town, but rather there is only a
| > geographical area, whose name may have official status.
|
| Tony meant "village", I think.
No, I meant "town". We have villages here, but it's like having a
"town centre"; a pretension in naming. The "Village of Bluehair" may
actually be a city or town, but someone thought village to sound
better.
| Of course, Florida is a state in which the Director of Community
| Planning is named "Sonny".
If we have a Director of Community Planning, it is a sham job title.
The actual title should "Bagman". He would be the guy that collects
the contributions of the developers and carries a very small bag for
the hard money, and a very large bag for the soft money.
Tony Cooper
| > A wild turkey flew in front of me, though, and almost didn't clear
the
| > top of the car. I'd never seen a wild one before, so that made my
| > trip. Huge thing...I'm impressed that it even cleared for
take-off.
|
| Lucky you! I haven't seen one in years. Are you sure it was a
| turkey? Just kidding.
I was sure it was a turkey, but I wasn't sure if it was wild. So, I
stopped in a gas station a mile down the road and asked a utility
company worker (a local) if there were wild turkeys in the area. He
gave me that pitying look that rural people give city slickers and
told me the woods were full of them. There's a wild turkey hunting
season and everything. A hunter can shoot (rifle, bow and arrow,
cross-bow, pistol, or muzzle loader) one per day. Most turkey hunting
is done on private land that is leased by hunting clubs or
individuals. There's a wild boar season, too.
david56
>
> The third stage (SIVB) of the Saturn spacecraft, which was 58 feet
> long and 22 feet in diameter, was delivered to Cape Canaveral by an
> aircraft called the Super Guppy. This was a stretched version of one
> called the Pregnant Guppy. I'm sure someone can give us the official
> designation.
We have Guppies of some sort over here - I occasionally see them
overhead - they transport Airbus wings from the BAe factory at Chester
to the French factory (Toulouse?) where they are put onto the fuselage.
Matti Lamprhey
>
> I agree with you about the "once a city [always a city]" rule, but it
> seems from the cases of St. Davids and St. Asaph that the LCD do not.
I'm not so sure. It seems to me that they saw St David's as having more
than a critical level of popular acceptance of its civic status, while St
Asaph fell below that level. They made St David's an official city to avoid
any future problem (pure assumption on my part). This happened, contrary to
recent practice, in a year which seems not to have marked any kind of royal
or other major anniversary. So I'm guessing that the LCD's attitude to St
Asaph is "you were never REALLY a city."
Matti
Bob Stahl
>Bob Stahl:
>> Of course, Florida is a state in which the Director of
>> Community Planning is named "Sonny".
> If we have a Director of Community Planning, it is a sham
> job title. The actual title should "Bagman". He would be
> the guy that collects the contributions of the developers
> and carries a very small bag for the hard money, and a
> very large bag for the soft money.
Henry E. "Sonny" Timmerman, Director
Division of Community Planning
http://www.dca.state.fl.us/fdcp/DCP/
(Googling for "sonny timmerman" + indictment turns up nada.)
The Census Bureau says we're both wrong:
"For incorporated places, [legal] designations include
city, town, borough, village, township, and district.
Unincorporated places are designated as CDPs (census
designated places)."
http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0027.html
--
Bob Stahl
Richard Fontana
I don't think that's the last word. I suspect that each state has its own
legal take on what "incorporation" means for a municipal or other
sub-county administrative entity.