Is "thanks in advance" polite/rude?
Berkeley Brett
I wonder, how do you feel about the use of the phrase "thanks in
advance"? I suspect most of you have seen this used on internet
message boards. Example:
"Does anyone know anything about the dependence of the Mexican Spotted
Owl and the Northern Flying Squirrel on coarse woody debris (for such
things as cover and truffle production)? Thanks in advance for
sharing your knowledge..."
Well, I guess the "classical" sequence of thanking is that you do
something helpful for me, and I then thank you for it. If I had
*asked* you to do something helpful for me, it would have been 1) my
request, 2) your performance, 3) my thanks. Of course, with "thanks
in advance," we merge 1 and 3: 1) my request and advanced
appreciation, 2) your performance.
I can see that some might find "advanced thanking" rude because 1) it
diminishes the amount of "work" I do relative to your helpful action,
and 2) it creates a strange kind of involuntary obligation (if a
specific person is asked to do a specific thing) -- it's as if your
declining to fulfill the request for helpful action will result in
this frustrated thanking-energy shooting around the Universe like a
lightning bolt and surely causing some mischief somewhere.
On the other hand, advanced thanking is more efficient. On message
boards, it removes the requirement that a separate message containing
only thanks should be posted, perhaps frustrating the reader who had
clicked it hoping for more content.
Of course, if we're into maximizing efficiency, couldn't we thank a
given person in advance for ALL the kind and helpful things they might
do for us and then have done with it? We could conclude with,
"Consider yourself thanked!" :P
Well, um .... thanks in advance for any thoughts you might have to
share on this timely subject.
--
Brett (in Berkeley, California, USA)
http://www.ForeverFunds.org/
My plan for erasing poverty from the world with micro-endowments that
"give" forever into the future
CDB
> I hope you are all in good spirits.
>>
>>
> I wonder, how do you feel about the use of the phrase "thanks in
> advance"? I suspect most of you have seen this used on internet
> message boards. Example:
>
> "Does anyone know anything about the dependence of the Mexican
> Spotted Owl and the Northern Flying Squirrel on coarse woody debris
> (for such things as cover and truffle production)? Thanks in
> advance for sharing your knowledge..."
>>
coarse woody debris, a substance in which I have an almost passionate
interest." I suppose you would then be obliged to thank them
afterwards.
>>
> [analysis, pros and cons]
>
> Of course, if we're into maximizing efficiency, couldn't we thank a
> given person in advance for ALL the kind and helpful things they
> might do for us and then have done with it? We could conclude with,
> "Consider yourself thanked!" :P
>>
off."
>>
> Well, um .... thanks in advance for any thoughts you might have to
> share on this timely subject.
>>
this point.
Joachim Pense
>
> I can see that some might find "advanced thanking" rude because 1) it
> diminishes the amount of "work" I do relative to your helpful action,
> and 2) it creates a strange kind of involuntary obligation (if a
> specific person is asked to do a specific thing) -- it's as if your
> declining to fulfill the request for helpful action will result in
> this frustrated thanking-energy shooting around the Universe like a
> lightning bolt and surely causing some mischief somewhere.
>
I am very interested in reading answers to that question - I work in an
international Company, and I often write EMails asking for help. I am a
native speaker of German, and I feel that in German the equivalent
"Vielen Dank im Voraus" to "thanks in advance" is not considered rude.
However, a colleague warned me about the possible impression of rudeness
of this phrase in English, so I avoid it. But I would really like to
hear the voice of native speakers on that.
Thanks in advance :-)
Joachim
Cheryl
I think it's intended to be polite, but can sound a bit rude. I've got a
third reason - when you're asking someone to do something for you, it's
a bit rude to assume they will of course agree - and thanking them in
advance implies that of course they wouldn't refuse to help someone as
important as you are!
This can happen in cases in which both of you know perfectly well that
the other person will carry out your request - in a business setting,
for example, where it's the other person's job to provide the object or
service. You say 'thank you' afterwards to be polite, but if you say
'thanks in advance' it might sound like you're taking the other person
for granted.
That being said, 'Thanks in advance' is used sometimes in English, with
no evident intent to offend or condescend. I don't use it, though.
--
Cheryl
Bertel Lund Hansen
> I wonder, how do you feel about the use of the phrase "thanks in
> advance"? I suspect most of you have seen this used on internet
> message boards.
I have seen it (in Danish and other languages) in many
connections, and it has always struck me as odd. It's a very
impersonal kind af thanks.
> Of course, if we're into maximizing efficiency, couldn't we thank a
> given person in advance for ALL the kind and helpful things they might
> do for us and then have done with it? We could conclude with,
> "Consider yourself thanked!" :P
It could be made even more efficient: Every child is required
some time before its fifth birthday to say out loud: "Thanks
everyone". And then never again.
In a Danish shop with personal service and an ordinary order
variations af "thank you" may easily be exchanged six times. I
wouldn't want it any other way.
--
Bertel, Denmark
Don Phillipson
news:b56db26b-cd2b-4825...@r19g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> I wonder, how do you feel about the use of the phrase "thanks in
> advance"? . . .
> I can see that some might find "advanced thanking" rude because 1) it
> diminishes the amount of "work" I do relative to your helpful action,
> and 2) it creates a strange kind of involuntary obligation (if a
> specific person is asked to do a specific thing)
The #2 phenomenon may have emerged from the professional fund-
raising industry. Several charities now send their sucker lists
useless gifts (e.g. customized notepaper) as "thanks in advance"
for the solicited donation.
But general hypersensitivity to this point might have been derived
from dogmatic Freudianism, specifically the generalization that
every denial is really an affirmation or confession. But the Sage of Vienna
also observed that, sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Stan Brown
> Example:
>
> "Does anyone know anything about the dependence of the Mexican Spotted
> Owl and the Northern Flying Squirrel on coarse woody debris (for such
> things as cover and truffle production)? Thanks in advance for
> sharing your knowledge..."
I used to consider it quite rude. The subtext is "I won't be
bothered to thank you after you answer my question, no matter whether
it's the work of a moment or you spend considerable effort."
Perhaps I've mellowed, but it no longer bothers me so much. Maybe
I've learned that thanks on Usenet are rare; maybe I look on it as
almost a formula close, like "very truly yours" in a business letter.
Myself, I still try to say thanks after the fact, particularly when
the help was very important to me or took considerable effort by the
responder(s).
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...
Stan Brown
> I am very interested in reading answers to that question - I work in an
> international Company, and I often write EMails asking for help. I am a
> native speaker of German, and I feel that in German the equivalent
> "Vielen Dank im Voraus" to "thanks in advance" is not considered rude.
> However, a colleague warned me about the possible impression of rudeness
> of this phrase in English, so I avoid it. But I would really like to
> hear the voice of native speakers on that.
>
> Thanks in advance :-)
or what it's worth, I work in tech support, and every day I deal with
many emails. Probably 10% to 20% of them are from people whose first
language is not English. I don't expect the same nuances that I
would from native speakers.
For example, many correspondents address me as "Dear". I don't mean
"Dear Stan" or "Dear Mr. Brown", but just "Dear" at the start of the
email. A native speaker would never do that, but I'm not bothered by
seeing it.
What *does* bother me is "please do the needful" instead of a
statement of what is wrong and what they need. For some reason,
Indians seem to do this a lot.
I've wandered from the topic, haven't I? When I see "thanks in
advance" at the end of an email requesting tech support, it doesn't
bother me.
Dr Nick
> On 2011-02-12 10:00 AM, Joachim Pense wrote:
>> Am 12.02.2011 13:47, schrieb Berkeley Brett:
>>
>>>
>>> I can see that some might find "advanced thanking" rude because 1) it
>>> diminishes the amount of "work" I do relative to your helpful action,
>>> and 2) it creates a strange kind of involuntary obligation (if a
>>> specific person is asked to do a specific thing) -- it's as if your
>>> declining to fulfill the request for helpful action will result in
>>> this frustrated thanking-energy shooting around the Universe like a
>>> lightning bolt and surely causing some mischief somewhere.
>>>
>>
>> I am very interested in reading answers to that question - I work in an
>> international Company, and I often write EMails asking for help. I am a
>> native speaker of German, and I feel that in German the equivalent
>> "Vielen Dank im Voraus" to "thanks in advance" is not considered rude.
>> However, a colleague warned me about the possible impression of rudeness
>> of this phrase in English, so I avoid it. But I would really like to
>> hear the voice of native speakers on that.
>>
>> Thanks in advance :-)
>>
>> Joachim
>
> I think it's intended to be polite, but can sound a bit rude. I've got
> a third reason - when you're asking someone to do something for you,
> it's a bit rude to assume they will of course agree - and thanking
> them in advance implies that of course they wouldn't refuse to help
> someone as important as you are!
That's the main reason why I think it can taken to be a bit rude. I
tend to work round it by putting a bit more effort into asking nicely
(when I remember to).
--
Online waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu
Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk
Bertel Lund Hansen
> I am very interested in reading answers to that question - I work in an
> international Company, and I often write EMails asking for help. I am a
> native speaker of German, and I feel that in German the equivalent
> "Vielen Dank im Voraus" to "thanks in advance" is not considered rude.
I am a Dane, and "P� forh�nd tak" is a very well-known phrase. I
don't think the perception differs with nationality. Some people
think it is polite, and others, like I, find it ridiculous or
irritating.
Another variation often sees in usenet:
Hope this helps.
Why else write it?
--
Bertel, Denmark
Dr Nick
> In a Danish shop with personal service and an ordinary order
> variations af "thank you" may easily be exchanged six times. I
> wouldn't want it any other way.
Ah yes. We do that in England too.
I pass the tin of beans to the shop keeper. He says "thank you".
I rings it up on the till and says "that will be 37p".
I pass him 50p. He says "thank you".
He passes me 13p change. I say "thank you".
He gives me the beans back. I say "thank you".
He says "thank you".
That's 5 anyway.
Bertel Lund Hansen
> Myself, I still try to say thanks after the fact, particularly when
> the help was very important to me or took considerable effort by the
> responder(s).
I never write "Thanks in advance" or the like. If I get help as a
sideissue in some thread, I don't thank unless it's some effort.
If I start a thread asking for help, I seldom forget to thank the
people taking the trouble to help me.
In the Danish usenet it is considered a bit rude not to follow up
on such a thread - not necessarily with thanks, but at least with
a note about what worked and what didn't. This will help silent
readers who have the same problem.
--
Bertel, Denmark
James Silverton
use "Thanks in Advance" and, when not on a.u.english, I may abbreviate
it to TIA. I suppose I might preface the question by saying "I would be
grateful for assistance" or something similar but I think that is
implied by TIA, is a common usage and allows brevity. I usually post a
reply thanking people for their answers.
I would not use "Thanks in advance" in a formal "snail mail" request
but, even if the usage is redundant, I do not find it condescending. I
must admit that I am irritated by things like "Thank you for your prompt
reply" in letters.
--
James Silverton, Potomac
Stan Brown
> The #2 phenomenon may have emerged from the professional fund-
> raising industry. Several charities now send their sucker lists
> useless gifts (e.g. customized notepaper) as "thanks in advance"
> for the solicited donation.
Now??? At least in the US, that's long-standing practice. The
charity would send address labels or something else, and include a
demand for a "donation". Many people felt obliged to comply, since
it was less work than sending the labels back.
This abuse was ended by Federal legislation, in the 1960s if I recall
correctly, to the effect that if someone sends you something
unsolicited in the mail, it's yours to keep or discard, with no
obligation to the sender. (The obvious exception is a good-faith
error, such as a misaddressed package.) Some charities still send
out unsolicited merchandise, but I think most people now know that
there is no return obligation.
Derek Turner
> I wonder, how do you feel about the use of the phrase "thanks in
> advance"?
BrE: The 'correct' (i.e. polite) term in the UK is 'Thanking you in
anticipation', which has a long and honourable tradition in formal
business letters. Thanks in advance just sounds ignorant to my (grumpy
old man) ears.
It had never occurred to me that 'tia' in newsgroups and emails could
mean anything other than "Thanking you in anticipation" but your question
challenges my blithe assumption.
Stan Brown
> I am a Dane, and "På forhånd tak" is a very well-known phrase. I
> don't think the perception differs with nationality. Some people
> think it is polite, and others, like I, find it ridiculous or
> irritating.
No disrespect intended, but that should be "like me". Your English
is extremely good, so I hope you won't mind the correction.
> Another variation often sees in usenet:
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Why else write it?
That is code for "I am not sure, but I can't be bothered to verify
this solution," or perhaps for "if this makes things worse, don't
blame me."
tony cooper
I'm in the group that does not find "Thanks in advance" to be rude.
For those who do, what's the reaction to the very common usage of "I
would appreciate it if..."? Indicating appreciation will be in store
for an act not-yet performed is the same, isn't it?
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
James Silverton
> On Sat, 12 Feb 2011 08:47:16 -0500, Don Phillipson wrote:
>> The #2 phenomenon may have emerged from the professional fund-
>> raising industry. Several charities now send their sucker lists
>> useless gifts (e.g. customized notepaper) as "thanks in advance"
>> for the solicited donation.
>
> Now??? At least in the US, that's long-standing practice. The
> charity would send address labels or something else, and include a
> demand for a "donation". Many people felt obliged to comply, since
> it was less work than sending the labels back.
>
> This abuse was ended by Federal legislation, in the 1960s if I recall
> correctly, to the effect that if someone sends you something
> unsolicited in the mail, it's yours to keep or discard, with no
> obligation to the sender. (The obvious exception is a good-faith
> error, such as a misaddressed package.) Some charities still send
> out unsolicited merchandise, but I think most people now know that
> there is no return obligation.
>
It is certainly true that there is no obligation to return unsolicited
materials but the "guilt factor" seems to work and I sometimes feel
irrationally dubious about using things like address labels when I have
not made a contribution. Another irritating habit of charities is to
include a return card with suggested donations like:
"Please check $50 (), $100 (), Other ()"
--
James Silverton, Potomac
Joachim Pense
It sounds more polite to me because it does not take fulfillment of the
request for granted.
Looking at the answers, I feel there is no difference between German and
English here - all the considerations I saw here also apply to the
corresponding German usage.
Joachim
Joachim Pense
Am 12.02.2011 15:06, schrieb Bertel Lund Hansen:
> Joachim Pense skrev:
>
>> I am very interested in reading answers to that question - I work in an
>> international Company, and I often write EMails asking for help. I am a
>> native speaker of German, and I feel that in German the equivalent
>> "Vielen Dank im Voraus" to "thanks in advance" is not considered rude.
>
> I am a Dane, and "På forhånd tak" is a very well-known phrase. I
> don't think the perception differs with nationality. Some people
> think it is polite, and others, like I, find it ridiculous or
> irritating.
>
> Another variation often sees in usenet:
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Why else write it?
>
But HTH that is not a variation of TIA - the one who provided the answer
appends it to the answer. I take it as a short form of "I think the
information I provided is complete and useful for you, but if not, feel
free to ask me again."
Joachim
Joachim Pense
Am 12.02.2011 15:29, schrieb Stan Brown:
> On Sat, 12 Feb 2011 15:06:36 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>> I am a Dane, and "På forhånd tak" is a very well-known phrase. I
>> don't think the perception differs with nationality. Some people
>> think it is polite, and others, like I, find it ridiculous or
>> irritating.
>
> No disrespect intended, but that should be "like me". Your English
> is extremely good, so I hope you won't mind the correction.
>
>> Another variation often sees in usenet:
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>>
>> Why else write it?
>
> That is code for "I am not sure, but I can't be bothered to verify
> this solution," or perhaps for "if this makes things worse, don't
> blame me."
>
I beg to differ. If I am not sure or don't care to verify the solution,
I might write "FWIW" (For what it's worth). "HTH" to me expresses the
opposite: "I think that this solution is ok, and I hope this assumption
will prove to be correct".
Joachim
Joachim Pense
>
> This abuse was ended by Federal legislation, in the 1960s if I recall
> correctly, to the effect that if someone sends you something
> unsolicited in the mail, it's yours to keep or discard, with no
> obligation to the sender. (The obvious exception is a good-faith
> error, such as a misaddressed package.) Some charities still send
> out unsolicited merchandise, but I think most people now know that
> there is no return obligation.
>
I am surprised to learn that there could have been a return obligation
before.
Joachim
Joachim Pense
>
> It is certainly true that there is no obligation to return unsolicited
> materials but the "guilt factor" seems to work and I sometimes feel
> irrationally dubious about using things like address labels when I have
> not made a contribution.
>
AFAIK in Germany, you need not send back unsolicited material, but you
mustn't use it or throw it away either - you have to store it for an
appropriate time so the sender can come and take it back.
Joachim
Joachim Pense
> I've learned that thanks on Usenet are rare;
They are sometimes frowned upon as needless noise. IIRC, Netiquette
requires you to send your thanks as personal mails.
Joachim
CDB
> So schrieb Bertel Lund Hansen:
seen it in ironic use: I Fixed Your Post For You - Happy To Help -
Have A Nice Day.
Joachim Pense
>>
>> But HTH that is not a variation of TIA - the one who provided the
>> answer appends it to the answer. I take it as a short form of "I
>> think the information I provided is complete and useful for you,
>> but if not, feel free to ask me again."
>>>
> Is it often used straightforwardly, in your experience? I've usually
> seen it in ironic use: I Fixed Your Post For You - Happy To Help -
> Have A Nice Day.
>
I only experienced it with seriously helpful answers (or at least
answers that were intended to be seriously helpful).
Joachim
Donna Richoux
> Bertel Lund Hansen <splittemi...@lundhansen.dk> writes:
>
> > In a Danish shop with personal service and an ordinary order
> > variations af "thank you" may easily be exchanged six times. I
> > wouldn't want it any other way.
>
> Ah yes. We do that in England too.
>
> I pass the tin of beans to the shop keeper. He says "thank you".
> I rings it up on the till and says "that will be 37p".
> I pass him 50p. He says "thank you".
> He passes me 13p change. I say "thank you".
> He gives me the beans back. I say "thank you".
> He says "thank you".
>
> That's 5 anyway.
You could get more if he asked you if you wanted a bag and you'd say
"Yes, thank you." Then he'd give it to you which warrants another "Thank
you."
For the Dutch, add the polite "Here you are" word (Alstublieft or
Alsjeblieft) every time money, the goods, or a bag changes hands. It
also doubles as a "You're welcome" word.
Round it off with a time-appropriate greeting on entering or approaching
the counter, and appropriate farewell.
In the US: Enter shop in silence. Place can of beans on counter. Clerk
zips bar code and the total due flashes on display. Hand over money, get
change, and leave, all in silence.
It works, but it doesn't leave you feeling warm and fuzzy inside.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
CDB
company emphatically excepted).
tony cooper
wrote:
I see "Hope this helps", or a variation of that, in the Adobe
Photoshop groups. The writer is often indicating that he's not sure
if the supplied answer is actually the answer the OP is searching for.
This is often the case because there are so many ways to arrive at the
same result in Photoshop, and there are sometimes additional steps
required to get the wanted results.
CDB
thanks.
Bertel Lund Hansen
> When I request assistance on a problem on a technical newsgroup I often
> use "Thanks in Advance" and, when not on a.u.english, I may abbreviate
> it to TIA. I suppose I might preface the question by saying "I would be
> grateful for assistance" or something similar but I think that is
> implied by TIA, is a common usage and allows brevity.
Why is brevity desirable? I avoid most abbreviations except three
very common ones in Danish. I do, however, once in a while write
ROTFL :-)
because "Ha ha" looks so lame and may be misunderstood.
--
Bertel, Denmark
Bertel Lund Hansen
> I'm in the group that does not find "Thanks in advance" to be rude.
I don't find it rude. I understand the good intention. I just
don't like it.
> For those who do, what's the reaction to the very common usage of "I
> would appreciate it if..."?
That is a description of your own state of mind. It is not an
undirected thanks.
> Indicating appreciation will be in store for an act not-yet performed
> is the same, isn't it?
Thanks for the money you are going to give me.
I would appreciate it if you gave me some money.
The same?
--
Bertel, Denmark
Bertel Lund Hansen
>> I am a Dane, and "På forhånd tak" is a very well-known phrase. I
>> don't think the perception differs with nationality. Some people
>> think it is polite, and others, like I, find it ridiculous or
>> irritating.
> No disrespect intended, but that should be "like me". Your English
> is extremely good, so I hope you won't mind the correction.
On the contrary. I appreciate help with my language, be it my
mothertongue or a foreign language.
I defend the use of "me" for nominative "I" in many contexts, but
in this case my school learning shone through.
>> Hope this helps.
> That is code for "I am not sure, but I can't be bothered to verify
> this solution," or perhaps for "if this makes things worse, don't
> blame me."
If that were true, it would be quite rude. I agree with Joachim
Pense. If I supply unverified advise, I always specifically say
so.
--
Bertel, Denmark
Bertel Lund Hansen
>> Another variation often sees in usenet:
>> Hope this helps.
>> Why else write it?
> But HTH that is not a variation of TIA
No. It's a variation on the theme: redundant, unnecessary and
superfluous writing.
--
Bertel, Denmark
Bertel Lund Hansen
> You must read a higher class of newsgroup than I generally do (present
> company emphatically excepted).
Maybe he just has set up more filters?
--
Bertel, Denmark
Bertel Lund Hansen
> AFAIK in Germany, you need not send back unsolicited material, but you
> mustn't use it or throw it away either - you have to store it for an
> appropriate time so the sender can come and take it back.
I think you are wrong though I don't specifically know German
laws. It would be strange if I could send my furniture to strange
people and have them store it for a couple of months.
Under Danish laws - goods received:
1. If there has been an error, you must make it possible for the
rightful owner to get it (back). It may cost you a small
inconvinience. Costs must be paid by the owner or the person at
fault.
2. The goods were meant for you, and there was no previous
agreement about it. You can do with it whatever you like.
I would assume that basically the same applies to German law.
--
Bertel, Denmark
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> Am 12.02.2011 13:47, schrieb Berkeley Brett:
>
>>
>> I can see that some might find "advanced thanking" rude because 1) it
>> diminishes the amount of "work" I do relative to your helpful action,
>> and 2) it creates a strange kind of involuntary obligation (if a
>> specific person is asked to do a specific thing) -- it's as if your
>> declining to fulfill the request for helpful action will result in
>> this frustrated thanking-energy shooting around the Universe like a
>> lightning bolt and surely causing some mischief somewhere.
>>
>
> I am very interested in reading answers to that question - I work in an
> international Company, and I often write EMails asking for help. I am a
> native speaker of German, and I feel that in German the equivalent
> "Vielen Dank im Voraus" to "thanks in advance" is not considered rude.
> However, a colleague warned me about the possible impression of
> rudeness of this phrase in English, so I avoid it. But I would really
> like to hear the voice of native speakers on that.
It's common in English, but I don't it, and I do find it rude. No point
in thanking at all if you do it in advance.
>
> Thanks in advance :-)
You're welcome, as the Americans say.
--
athel
Bertel Lund Hansen
>> In a Danish shop with personal service and an ordinary order
>> variations af "thank you" may easily be exchanged six times. I
>> wouldn't want it any other way.
> Ah yes. We do that in England too.
Yes. A funny thing is that many Danes consider Brits to be very
polite because they (you) say "Thank you" and "please" all the
time. They totally forget/do not realize that we use just as many
polite phrases in Danish.
--
Bertel, Denmark
tony cooper
It doesn't really appear in the form above. It's more likely, in a
begging letter, to be:
Thanks in advance for your consideration of my request for a loan.
or
I would appreciate your consideration of my request for a loan.
Both are pretty much the same.
Bertel Lund Hansen
> In the US: Enter shop in silence. Place can of beans on counter. Clerk
> zips bar code and the total due flashes on display. Hand over money, get
> change, and leave, all in silence.
I don't think that is just the US. It's nearly the same in our
(small or large) supermarkets. You need a shop without self
service in order to experience an exchange of many thanks.
In the supermarkets in my town I am always greeted at the cash
counter with a "Hi" or "Good day" and when I leave, they say
"Have a nice day". I of course answer both times. Apart from that
the only remarks are
me: Just the exact amount.
(card payment)
...
person: Do you want the sales ticket?
me: Yes, please.
--
Bertel, Denmark
Bertel Lund Hansen
> It had never occurred to me that 'tia' in newsgroups and emails could
> mean anything other than "Thanking you in anticipation"
That would have been "TYIA".
You can mystify people by using that acronym.
--
Bertel, Denmark
Dr Nick
To be fair, although I find US use doesn't do the constant "polite
noise" words, I've entered shops there for the first time in my life and
thought the best friend of the man behind the counter had entered just
behind me from the warmth of the greeting (genuinely, I've looked round
to see who he was talking to before deciding it must be me).
These variations in cultural norms are strange.
--
Online waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu
Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk
James Silverton
and I think I also mentioned that I do not use abbreviations like TIA in
a formal letter. I might use emoticons in a typed letter to personal
friends.
--
James Silverton, Potomac
CDB
> CDB skrev:
>
>> You must read a higher class of newsgroup than I generally do
>> (present company emphatically excepted).
>
> Maybe he just has set up more filters?
>>
just my habit of lurking occasionally among the kibologists. (I tried
starting that last sentence with "However", but it didn't work well.
I think Eric is right.)
LFS
Mostly I think that any form of thanks - indeed, any expression of
politeness, however mechanically offered - is a Good Thing. If I am
sending an email message asking someone to do something I will often end
with "Thanks". But "Thanks in advance" sounds to me as if there is an
automatic assumption that a request will be complied with: I find this
irritating, rather than rude.
>>
>> Thanks in advance :-)
>
> You're welcome, as the Americans say.
>
You left out HAND.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Bertel Lund Hansen
> I believe that brevity *is* a virtue for technical questions on the Web
I beg to differ. I think clarity is the prime quality - clarity
for present and future readers, young and old.
--
Bertel, Denmark
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2011-02-12 14:30:18 +0100, Joachim Pense <sn...@pense-mainz.eu> said:
>>
>>> Am 12.02.2011 13:47, schrieb Berkeley Brett:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> [ ... ]
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance :-)
>>
>> You're welcome, as the Americans say.
>>
>
> You left out HAND.
?
--
athel
Skitt
> I'm in the group that does not find "Thanks in advance" to be rude.
> For those who do, what's the reaction to the very common usage of "I
> would appreciate it if..."? Indicating appreciation will be in store
> for an act not-yet performed is the same, isn't it?
I'm in the group that has no particular like or dislike for the phrase,
but I'm leaning towards the latter emotion.
To me, "thanks in a advance" sort of implies that my assistance is
expected, and that the asker will not bother later to express any
appreciation for whatever help I provide. That, especially in a group
like this, where I'm under no obligation to provide whatever is asked,
seems a bit presumptuous and somewhat rude.
"I would appreciate" is a bit different, as it does not presume
fulfillment of the request, but only suggests that there might be some
gratitude, expressed or implied, if someone acts on it.
Personally, I might use the "I would appreciate" expression, but never
the "thanks in advance" one.
--
Skitt (SF Bay Area)
http://come.to/skitt
Skitt
> Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>> tony cooper skrev:
>>> I'm in the group that does not find "Thanks in advance" to be rude.
>>
>> I don't find it rude. I understand the good intention. I just
>> don't like it.
>>
>>> For those who do, what's the reaction to the very common usage of "I
>>> would appreciate it if..."?
>>
>> That is a description of your own state of mind. It is not an
>> undirected thanks.
>>
>>> Indicating appreciation will be in store for an act not-yet performed
>>> is the same, isn't it?
>>
>> Thanks for the money you are going to give me.
>>
>> I would appreciate it if you gave me some money.
>>
>> The same?
>
> It doesn't really appear in the form above. It's more likely, in a
> begging letter, to be:
>
> Thanks in advance for your consideration of my request for a loan.
>
> or
>
> I would appreciate your consideration of my request for a loan.
>
> Both are pretty much the same.
Sure, as the thanking or appreciation is only for the consideration
which will surely happen, even though it could be as superficial as a
quick decision to throw the loan request in the trash.
I expressed my views better in another post in this thread.
Skitt
> [F]or what it's worth, I work in tech support, and every day I deal with
> many emails. Probably 10% to 20% of them are from people whose first
> language is not English. I don't expect the same nuances that I
> would from native speakers.
<snip>
> I've wandered from the topic, haven't I? When I see "thanks in
> advance" at the end of an email requesting tech support, it doesn't
> bother me.
I see nothing wrong with "thanks in advance" being used in that context,
as it is your job to provide tech support, and it can be assumed that
you will do so.
The phrase is one that I would never use in a newsgroup context, where
there is no obligation for anyone to comply with a request.
Skitt
> schrieb Stan Brown:
>> Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>>> I am a Dane, and "På forhånd tak" is a very well-known phrase. I
>>> don't think the perception differs with nationality. Some people
>>> think it is polite, and others, like I, find it ridiculous or
>>> irritating.
>>
>> No disrespect intended, but that should be "like me". Your English
>> is extremely good, so I hope you won't mind the correction.
>>
>>> Another variation often sees in usenet:
>>>
>>> Hope this helps.
>>>
>>> Why else write it?
>>
>> That is code for "I am not sure, but I can't be bothered to verify
>> this solution," or perhaps for "if this makes things worse, don't
>> blame me."
>>
>
> I beg to differ. If I am not sure or don't care to verify the solution,
> I might write "FWIW" (For what it's worth). "HTH" to me expresses the
> opposite: "I think that this solution is ok, and I hope this assumption
> will prove to be correct".
I believe that HTH is often used sarcastically. I avoid the usual chat
abbreviations in this newsgroup (and pretty much everywhere else), as I
do know how to express myself without them and am trying to be polite
enough to do so. It ain't hard.
Skitt
> "CDB" wrote:
>> Joachim Pense wrote:
>>> schrieb CDB:
>>>>> But HTH that is not a variation of TIA - the one who provided the
>>>>> answer appends it to the answer. I take it as a short form of "I
>>>>> think the information I provided is complete and useful for you,
>>>>> but if not, feel free to ask me again."
>>>>
>>>> Is it often used straightforwardly, in your experience? I've
>>>> usually seen it in ironic use: I Fixed Your Post For You - Happy
>>>> To Help - Have A Nice Day.
>>>
>>> I only experienced it with seriously helpful answers (or at least
>>> answers that were intended to be seriously helpful).
>>
>> You must read a higher class of newsgroup than I generally do (present
>> company emphatically excepted).
>
> I see "Hope this helps", or a variation of that, in the Adobe
> Photoshop groups. The writer is often indicating that he's not sure
> if the supplied answer is actually the answer the OP is searching for.
> This is often the case because there are so many ways to arrive at the
> same result in Photoshop, and there are sometimes additional steps
> required to get the wanted results.
I said in a previous post that I have seen HTH in a sarcastic context.
I must add that I post and read only this newsgroup and the cross-posts
that happen here. The HTHs I've seen have been mostly by those
cross-posting from other groups, some of them with somewhat, how shall I
put it, unusual characteristics and customs.
tony cooper
This reminds me of a letter I once received from an attorney who
concluded with: "Your cooperation in this matter will be appreciated
and expected." Kind of a velvet glove over an iron fist.
musika
Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@ifr88.cnrs-mrs.fr> typed:
Have A Nice Day.
--
Ray
UK
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
Have A Nice Day.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Dr Nick
> I said in a previous post that I have seen HTH in a sarcastic
> context. I must add that I post and read only this newsgroup and the
> cross-posts that happen here. The HTHs I've seen have been mostly by
> those cross-posting from other groups, some of them with somewhat, how
> shall I put it, unusual characteristics and customs.
I've been known to do it. I'm pretty sure I've even been so rude as to
do something like this in response to "But can you provide PROOF that
ELEPHANTS have EARS!??!1!??"
LMGTFY. <URL>. HTH. HAND.
Robin Bignall
wrote:
>On Sat, 12 Feb 2011 10:25:01 -0330, Cheryl <cper...@mun.ca> wrote:
>
>>On 2011-02-12 10:00 AM, Joachim Pense wrote:
>>> Am 12.02.2011 13:47, schrieb Berkeley Brett:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I can see that some might find "advanced thanking" rude because 1) it
>>>> diminishes the amount of "work" I do relative to your helpful action,
>>>> and 2) it creates a strange kind of involuntary obligation (if a
>>>> specific person is asked to do a specific thing) -- it's as if your
>>>> declining to fulfill the request for helpful action will result in
>>>> this frustrated thanking-energy shooting around the Universe like a
>>>> lightning bolt and surely causing some mischief somewhere.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I am very interested in reading answers to that question - I work in an
>>> international Company, and I often write EMails asking for help. I am a
>>> native speaker of German, and I feel that in German the equivalent
>>> "Vielen Dank im Voraus" to "thanks in advance" is not considered rude.
>>> However, a colleague warned me about the possible impression of rudeness
>>> of this phrase in English, so I avoid it. But I would really like to
>>> hear the voice of native speakers on that.
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance :-)
>>>
>>> Joachim
>>
>>I think it's intended to be polite, but can sound a bit rude. I've got a
>>third reason - when you're asking someone to do something for you, it's
>>a bit rude to assume they will of course agree - and thanking them in
>>advance implies that of course they wouldn't refuse to help someone as
>>important as you are!
>>
>>This can happen in cases in which both of you know perfectly well that
>>the other person will carry out your request - in a business setting,
>>for example, where it's the other person's job to provide the object or
>>service. You say 'thank you' afterwards to be polite, but if you say
>>'thanks in advance' it might sound like you're taking the other person
>>for granted.
>>
>>That being said, 'Thanks in advance' is used sometimes in English, with
>>no evident intent to offend or condescend. I don't use it, though.
>
>I'm in the group that does not find "Thanks in advance" to be rude.
>For those who do, what's the reaction to the very common usage of "I
>would appreciate it if..."? Indicating appreciation will be in store
>for an act not-yet performed is the same, isn't it?
To me they're two slightly different things, but it's difficult to explain why.
"Thanks in advance" sort of assumes that someone is going to answer the query.
It just sounds a bit presumptuous. "I would appreciate it if..." is more a hope
that someone will take the trouble.
Maybe any difference is at nitpick level. I usually just ask the question and
thank the responders who are helpful.
--
Robin Bignall
(BrE)
Herts, England
Nick Spalding
on Sat, 12 Feb 2011 10:46:03 -0800:
> I believe that HTH is often used sarcastically.
I think that is the way I see it most often in the groups I read.
> I avoid the usual chat
> abbreviations in this newsgroup (and pretty much everywhere else), as I
> do know how to express myself without them and am trying to be polite
> enough to do so. It ain't hard.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
Ian Jackson
<tr...@euronet.nl> writes
>
>
>For the Dutch, add the polite "Here you are" word (Alstublieft or
>Alsjeblieft) every time money, the goods, or a bag changes hands. It
>also doubles as a "You're welcome" word.
>
My first visit abroad (an engineering working trip, with two colleagues,
in 1970) was to Belgium. We were somewhat taken aback when, in
restaurants and bars, the persons serving us would invariably say
"Please sir" when they gave us something.
After a couple of days, we got on chatting terms with a waitress in our
favourite pub, and we politely asked what this "Please sir" was all
about. She seemed rather puzzled, and said that it was simply a
translation of what the Dutch and French speakers say, and that is what
they were taught at school.
We soon realised that the "Please sir" was an abbreviated form of "If it
pleases you", and she was very surprised to hear that we didn't actually
say that in English. We were hard pressed to suggest an exact
alternative, but suggested "Here you are, sir" and (in appropriate
circumstances), maybe something along the lines of "I hope you like it",
"You're welcome" etc. We also mentioned that we didn't do an English
version of "Smaaklik" or "Bonne appertite" (except, literally, "Bonne
appertite"). [She must have thought we were a strange race of people.]
In the following years, I made many visits to Belgium (and some to
Holland), but I can't recall ever again hearing the "Please sir". I have
always wondered what became of it. Did word of our brief 'English
lesson' spread like wildfire throughout the continent of Europe? Did all
students of English sit up and take notice?
--
Ian
tsuidf
> I am very interested in reading answers to that question - I work in an
> international Company, and I often write EMails asking for help. I am a
> native speaker of German, and I feel that in German the equivalent
> "Vielen Dank im Voraus" to "thanks in advance" is not considered rude.
> However, a colleague warned me about the possible impression of rudeness
> of this phrase in English, so I avoid it. But I would really like to
> hear the voice of native speakers on that.
I'm in a similar situation: I'm one of the few native English
speakers in my office and it seems that to my German- and French-
speaking colleagues this sort of usage is actively considered polite.
So I use it as they will like it. But I'm sure I was brought up with
the understanding that it's rude.
This sort of thing has hapened to much of my language usage: I use far
too many simple present tense verbs now, as I am more or less
surrounded by German speakers who do the same. It is truly sad to
hear yourself say something like 'I go to lunch now, do you come?'
That's when you know it's time to give up....
cheers,
Stephanie
Bertel Lund Hansen
> In the following years, I made many visits to Belgium (and some to
> Holland), but I can't recall ever again hearing the "Please sir". I have
> always wondered what became of it. Did word of our brief 'English
> lesson' spread like wildfire throughout the continent of Europe? Did all
> students of English sit up and take notice?
My guess is that tv and films have educated us non-English people
in modern times.
Sometimes too much so. In a Danish tv-show - well sort of Danish.
It's called "X-factor" spelled like that - one of the judges said
about a trio that she was responsible for and didn't want to send
home:
Det er mit blood.
Pure Danish:
Det er mit blod.
--
Bertel, Denmark
tsuidf
> On Sat, 12 Feb 2011 10:25:01 -0330, Cheryl <cperk...@mun.ca> wrote:
> >On 2011-02-12 10:00 AM, Joachim Pense wrote:
> >> Am 12.02.2011 13:47, schrieb Berkeley Brett:
>
> >>> I can see that some might find "advanced thanking" rude because 1) it
> >>> diminishes the amount of "work" I do relative to your helpful action,
> >>> and 2) it creates a strange kind of involuntary obligation (if a
> >>> specific person is asked to do a specific thing) -- it's as if your
> >>> declining to fulfill the request for helpful action will result in
> >>> this frustrated thanking-energy shooting around the Universe like a
> >>> lightning bolt and surely causing some mischief somewhere.
>
> >> international Company, and I often write EMails asking for help. I am a
> >> native speaker of German, and I feel that in German the equivalent
> >> "Vielen Dank im Voraus" to "thanks in advance" is not considered rude.
> >> However, a colleague warned me about the possible impression of rudeness
> >> of this phrase in English, so I avoid it. But I would really like to
> >> hear the voice of native speakers on that.
>
>
> >> Joachim
>
> >I think it's intended to be polite, but can sound a bit rude. I've got a
> >third reason - when you're asking someone to do something for you, it's
> >a bit rude to assume they will of course agree - and thanking them in
> >advance implies that of course they wouldn't refuse to help someone as
> >important as you are!
>
> >This can happen in cases in which both of you know perfectly well that
> >the other person will carry out your request - in a business setting,
> >for example, where it's the other person's job to provide the object or
> >service. You say 'thank you' afterwards to be polite, but if you say
> >'thanks in advance' it might sound like you're taking the other person
> >for granted.
>
> >That being said, 'Thanks in advance' is used sometimes in English, with
> >no evident intent to offend or condescend. I don't use it, though.
>
> I'm in the group that does not find "Thanks in advance" to be rude.
> For those who do, what's the reaction to the very common usage of "I
> would appreciate it if..."? Indicating appreciation will be in store
> for an act not-yet performed is the same, isn't it?
The use of the conditional makes it more polite, as does the 'promise'
of appreciation later.
And thanks for that, Tony!
best,
Stephanie
Stan Brown
>
> Joachim Pense skrev:
>
> > AFAIK in Germany, you need not send back unsolicited material, but you
> > mustn't use it or throw it away either - you have to store it for an
> > appropriate time so the sender can come and take it back.
>
> I think you are wrong though I don't specifically know German
> laws. It would be strange if I could send my furniture to strange
> people and have them store it for a couple of months.
>
> Under Danish laws - goods received:
> 1. If there has been an error, you must make it possible for the
> rightful owner to get it (back). It may cost you a small
> inconvinience. Costs must be paid by the owner or the person at
> fault.
>
> 2. The goods were meant for you, and there was no previous
> agreement about it. You can do with it whatever you like.
>
> I would assume that basically the same applies to German law.
I can confirm that (1) and (2) exactly accord with US law. And it's
uniform across the US because regulations governing the mails are
matters of Federal law, not state law.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...
tsuidf
> What *does* bother me is "please do the needful" instead of a
> statement of what is wrong and what they need. For some reason,
> Indians seem to do this a lot.
Interesting, as in my (European) experience it's French speakers who
use this (asking one to 'faire le necessaire', apologies for absence
of diacritical marks here) in both FR and EN.
cheers,
Stephanie
Stan Brown
>
> Am 12.02.2011 15:24, schrieb Stan Brown:
> > This abuse was ended by Federal legislation, in the 1960s if I
> > recall correctly, to the effect that if someone sends you
> > something unsolicited in the mail, it's yours to keep or discard,
> > with no obligation to the sender. (The obvious exception is a
> > good-faith error, such as a misaddressed package.) Some charities
> > still send out unsolicited merchandise, but I think most people
> > now know that there is no return obligation.
> >
>
> I am surprised to learn that there could have been a return obligation
> before.
The legal theory, I believe, is that the goods were sent on
consignment or on approval, and that this was common industry
practice. But it's been upwards of four decades, and my memory may
be at fault.
There must have been *some* obligation to return them, or it would
not have been necessary to pass a law to the contrary. (The
exception proves the rule, and all that.)
tsuidf
> Dr Nick <3-nos...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
> > Bertel Lund Hansen <splitteminebrams...@lundhansen.dk> writes:
>
> > > In a Danish shop with personal service and an ordinary order
> > > variations af "thank you" may easily be exchanged six times. I
> > > wouldn't want it any other way.
>
> > Ah yes. We do that in England too.
>
> > I pass the tin of beans to the shop keeper. He says "thank you".
> > I rings it up on the till and says "that will be 37p".
> > I pass him 50p. He says "thank you".
> > He passes me 13p change. I say "thank you".
> > He gives me the beans back. I say "thank you".
> > He says "thank you".
>
> > That's 5 anyway.
>
> You could get more if he asked you if you wanted a bag and you'd say
> "Yes, thank you." Then he'd give it to you which warrants another "Thank
> you."
>
> Alsjeblieft) every time money, the goods, or a bag changes hands. It
> also doubles as a "You're welcome" word.
>
> the counter, and appropriate farewell.
>
> In the US: Enter shop in silence. Place can of beans on counter. Clerk
> zips bar code and the total due flashes on display. Hand over money, get
> change, and leave, all in silence.
>
Gosh, my experience is radically different. Loads of thanking, etc,
in the US, similar quantity but more chitchat in the UK, and next to
none here (Belgium, whether NL or FR speaking). Here the customer is
apparently expected to be incredibly grateful to be allowed to shop at
all, but the shop assistants are not expected to express any gratitude
for one's custom.
best from Brussels anyway,
Stephanie
tsuidf
<ianREMOVETHISjack...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <1jwl47r.17s1wlcutzc49N%t...@euronet.nl>, Donna Richoux
> <t...@euronet.nl> writes
No, sadly not. One still hears it sometimes -- as you say, it's a
literal translation and I hardly notice it until someone (like your
good self!) points it out.
I had to stifle my laughter once when serving as interpreter for a
very courteous French speaker hosting some Chinese VIPs. As the first
course at a very staid and traditional restaurant arrived, by way of
small talk he asked his Chinese opposite number, 'What is the Chinese
for 'Bon appetit'? to which the Chinese responded accurately but
gracelessly, 'There *isn't* one!' through a mouthful of food. Sigh.
That was one of those horrible occasions when I did come very close to
speaking French to the Chinese and English to the French, which really
didn't help.
bon app <insert discussion by real French people of why this isn't
apparently actually polite>,
Stephanie
Stan Brown
> Stan Brown skrev:
>
> >> I am a Dane, and "P� forh�nd tak" is a very well-known phrase. I
> >> don't think the perception differs with nationality. Some people
> >> think it is polite, and others, like I, find it ridiculous or
> >> irritating.
>
> > No disrespect intended, but that should be "like me". Your English
> > is extremely good, so I hope you won't mind the correction.
>
> mothertongue or a foreign language.
>
> I defend the use of "me" for nominative "I" in many contexts, but
> in this case my school learning shone through.
But it's a true accusative (or objective), not a nominative. "Like"
may have started life as a conjunction, but it's now also a
preposition. So it's not a matter of an erroneous "me" driving out
the correct "I", but of "me" actually being correct.
Edward Johnson, in /The Handbook of Good English/ (1991, New York),
goes so far as to say "The word /like/ ... usually ... should not be
used as a conjunction. ... /Like/ is properly used as a preposition,
as in /She looks like me at her age./ Note that the pronoun /me/ is
in the objective case, as the object of /like/."
I don't think this is a BrE/AmE difference, though our British
friends may correct me.
" ... others, as I do, find it ..." would be okay though it sets the
tone more formally.
Stan Brown
> Am 12.02.2011 15:33, schrieb tony cooper:
> > [quoted text muted]
> > For those who do, what's the reaction to the very common usage of "I
> > would appreciate it if..."? Indicating appreciation will be in store
> > for an act not-yet performed is the same, isn't it?
> >
>
> request for granted.
Same here. "If you do this, I'll be appreciative; if you don't, I
won't."
Mike Lyle
So why do you deliberately mislead your readers by writing "ROTFL"?
--
Mike.
Stan Brown
>
> On Sat, 12 Feb 2011 15:06:36 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> > Another variation often sees in usenet:
> >
> > Hope this helps.
> >
> > Why else write it?
>
> That is code for "I am not sure, but I can't be bothered to verify
> this solution," or perhaps for "if this makes things worse, don't
> blame me."
HTH can stand for "happy to help" (a response to a thank-you), or for
"hope this helps". I was glossing the latter use, which herr Hansen
brought up; but it seems some people are reacting as though I had
been talking about the former. I see nothing wrong with HTH as an
informal response to thanks in email or newsgroups.
obDanish: Is it "herr Hansen" or "Herr Hansen", or should it be some
third form?
Stan Brown
>
> Am 12.02.2011 14:59, schrieb Stan Brown:
>
> > I've learned that thanks on Usenet are rare;
>
> They are sometimes frowned upon as needless noise. IIRC, Netiquette
> requires you to send your thanks as personal mails.
I usually do it in the same message where I confirm that the proposed
solution actually worked for me.
Mike Lyle
Do they also have YFBSACBNH?
--
Mike.
Stan Brown
>
> Dr Nick skrev:
>
> >> In a Danish shop with personal service and an ordinary order
> >> variations af "thank you" may easily be exchanged six times. I
> >> wouldn't want it any other way.
>
> > Ah yes. We do that in England too.
>
> polite because they (you) say "Thank you" and "please" all the
> time. They totally forget/do not realize that we use just as many
> polite phrases in Danish.
I found it charming that Danes use the same word for English
"please" and "thank you".
Robert Bannister
> I hope you are all in good spirits.
>
> I wonder, how do you feel about the use of the phrase "thanks in
> advance"? I suspect most of you have seen this used on internet
> message boards. Example:
I find it cheeky.
--
Rob Bannister
Bertel Lund Hansen
> So why do you deliberately mislead your readers by writing "ROTFL"?
Because I have found no other way to convey the same sense.
--
Bertel, Denmark
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
<chuckle>
You are one of those mentioned in the introduction to the _European
Commission Directorate-General for Translation, English
Style Guide_ enquired about in the "Style Guide" thread started by
Pablo.
http://ec.europa.eu/translation/english/guidelines/documents/styleguide_english_dgt_en.pdf
....
Writing in clear language can be difficult at the Commission, since
much of the subject matter is complex and more and more is written
in English by (and for) non-native speakers, or by native speakers
who are beginning to lose touch with their language after years of
working in a multilingual environment.
Bertel Lund Hansen
>>>> Some people think it is polite, and others, like I, find it
>>>> ridiculous or irritating.
>>> No disrespect intended, but that should be "like me". Your English
>>> is extremely good, so I hope you won't mind the correction.
>> I defend the use of "me" for nominative "I" in many contexts, but
>> in this case my school learning shone through.
> But it's a true accusative (or objective), not a nominative.
I do not sense this. I have a "do" in the back of my mind (like I
do). Maybe the combination "me find" plays a role?
> "Like" may have started life as a conjunction, but it's now
> also a preposition. So it's not a matter of an erroneous "me"
> driving out the correct "I", but of "me" actually being
> correct.
I would like to hear others' oppinion on this.
> Edward Johnson, in /The Handbook of Good English/ (1991, New York),
> goes so far as to say "The word /like/ ... usually ... should not be
> used as a conjunction. ... /Like/ is properly used as a preposition,
> as in /She looks like me at her age./
There's no question in that sentence - "like me".
--
Bertel, Denmark
Bertel Lund Hansen
> obDanish: Is it "herr Hansen" or "Herr Hansen", or should it be some
> third form?
Our way of addressing one another has become quite informal
through the last decades. I can't remember when I was called by
my last name. Not that there's anything wrong with it, but it's
very unusual. People present themselves only by first name when
talking over the phone, and this is true even for 'noble'
companies.
The written form is "hr. Lund Hansen". "Hr." is a short form of
the very old "herr", but that is never used.
On usenet I write the complete name (if posters have given that)
because there may be many Toms, Jacks and so on. But in real life
I would just use one name.
If you want to be slightly formal without making people wonder,
you use the full name with no title.
About ten years ago I took a bachelor in IT at the age of 52. The
other students were between 25 and 40. One of them phoned me and
she burst out laughing when I responded "Bertel Lund Hansen". It
took her a minute to recover.
I then asked my two girls, and they looked at me with a
shaking-the-head look in their eyes.
Dad, that is oldfashioned.
--
Bertel, Denmark
Skitt
I'm influenced by other languages -- heavily inflected ones -- and I see
a nominative as the correct case in your sentence. Granted, most AmE
speakers would use the accusative, but I still mentally supply the
missing "do", resulting in "like I do". Then, of course, I realize that
it should be "as do I". Oh well, one is not going to change the way of
the masses.
Many AmE speakers use unusual grammar these days, and naturally, such
use is being documented and sometimes supported in recent grammar books.
I wonder how long before expressions like "between you and I", "you and
I's opinion", "we had went home", and "they had stole the necklace"
become the norm with the full support of grammar teachers.
--
Skitt (SF Bay Area)
http://come.to/skitt
Bertel Lund Hansen
> I found it charming that Danes use the same word for English
> "please" and "thank you".
That is a truth with modifications. It is correct that we answer
"Ja tak" when something is offered and we want it (and "Nej tak"
if we don't), but in other please-sentences we don't use "tak".
Would you please bring me a cup of coffee?
Vil du være venlig at hente en kop kaffe?
(non-idiomatic, direct translation:
Will you be kind to fetch a cup of coffee?)
"Thank you" is always expressed with "tak" or "mange tak" (many
thanks).
--
Bertel, Denmark
Robert Bannister
> Stan Brown skrev:
>
>>> I am a Dane, and "P� forh�nd tak" is a very well-known phrase. I
>>> think it is polite, and others, like I, find it ridiculous or
>>> irritating.
>
>> No disrespect intended, but that should be "like me". Your English
>> is extremely good, so I hope you won't mind the correction.
>
> mothertongue or a foreign language.
>
> in this case my school learning shone through.
I take the rule, such as it is, to be: "like me", "as I (do)".
--
Rob Bannister
Bertel Lund Hansen
> I take the rule, such as it is, to be: "like me", "as I (do)".
Okay.
I certainly hope people like me as I do.
--
Bertel, Denmark
Robert Bannister
At least you haven't succumbed to "Come you too with?" (yet).
The last time I worked in a multilingual situation, we all ended up
using words, and sometimes translated phrases from each other's
languages, which were a mixture of English, German, French, Swedish and
Italian. Curse phrases translated into another language were
particularly popular.
--
Rob Bannister
tony cooper
<stephanie...@telenet.be> wrote:
"I lift things up and put them down"
You may not have seen this commercial. Here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pf37Ep_6-UY
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Robert Bannister
> Bertel Lund Hansen<splittemi...@lundhansen.dk> writes:
>
>> In a Danish shop with personal service and an ordinary order
>> variations af "thank you" may easily be exchanged six times. I
>> wouldn't want it any other way.
>
> Ah yes. We do that in England too.
>
> I rings it up on the till and says "that will be 37p".
> I pass him 50p. He says "thank you".
> He passes me 13p change. I say "thank you".
> He gives me the beans back. I say "thank you".
> He says "thank you".
>
> That's 5 anyway.
More fun in languages where you say "please" every time you do something
for a person, so you can have the "bitte schön", "danke schön" chorus.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> Dr Nick<3-no...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> Bertel Lund Hansen<splittemi...@lundhansen.dk> writes:
>>
>>> In a Danish shop with personal service and an ordinary order
>>> variations af "thank you" may easily be exchanged six times. I
>>> wouldn't want it any other way.
>>
>> Ah yes. We do that in England too.
>>
>> I pass the tin of beans to the shop keeper. He says "thank you".
>> I rings it up on the till and says "that will be 37p".
>> I pass him 50p. He says "thank you".
>> He passes me 13p change. I say "thank you".
>> He gives me the beans back. I say "thank you".
>> He says "thank you".
>>
>> That's 5 anyway.
>
> "Yes, thank you." Then he'd give it to you which warrants another "Thank
> you."
>
> Alsjeblieft) every time money, the goods, or a bag changes hands. It
> also doubles as a "You're welcome" word.
>
> the counter, and appropriate farewell.
>
> In the US: Enter shop in silence. Place can of beans on counter. Clerk
> zips bar code and the total due flashes on display. Hand over money, get
> change, and leave, all in silence.
>
> It works, but it doesn't leave you feeling warm and fuzzy inside.
>
I'm pretty certain our checkout men and women are taught to say "How are
you?" and flash a dazzling smile to every customer whatever their true
feelings. Sometimes, you can almost hear the teeth gritting.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> Derek Turner skrev:
>
>> It had never occurred to me that 'tia' in newsgroups and emails could
>> mean anything other than "Thanking you in anticipation"
>
> That would have been "TYIA".
>
> You can mystify people by using that acronym.
>
You can mystify me by using almost any acronym. I tend to skip over them
as so much noise anyway. It's not just the Net; read any spy or war
story - almost any story these days - and you find a plethora of
abbreviations. I do blame America or possibly the American military for
this relatively modern phenomenon.
--
Robert Bannister
Skitt
> Dr Nick wrote:
>>> In a Danish shop with personal service and an ordinary order
>>> variations af "thank you" may easily be exchanged six times. I
>>> wouldn't want it any other way.
>>
>> Ah yes. We do that in England too.
>>
>> I pass the tin of beans to the shop keeper. He says "thank you".
>> I rings it up on the till and says "that will be 37p".
>> I pass him 50p. He says "thank you".
>> He passes me 13p change. I say "thank you".
>> He gives me the beans back. I say "thank you".
>> He says "thank you".
>>
>> That's 5 anyway.
>
> More fun in languages where you say "please" every time you do something
> for a person, so you can have the "bitte schön", "danke schön" chorus.
Latvian is one of those languages.
Reinhold {Rey} Aman
>
> obDanish: Is it "herr Hansen" or "Herr Hansen", or should it be
> some third form?
>
--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~
Dites-moi pourquoi la vie est merde...
http://aman.members.sonic.net/aman.html
Reinhold {Rey} Aman
>
> I have a "do" in the back of my mind
>
or, as we say in Danish: "Du har hul i hovedet."
Reinhold {Rey} Aman
>
> I hope you are all in good spirits.
>
Thanks in advance & Have a Good Day.
Most cordially,
Berkeley Brett
have been posted. They are much appreciated, and I hope more thoughts
on this question will be shared.
If you will indulge me in a trivial and frivolous ("frivial"?)
aside....
One sometimes hears people say "a thousand thanks" when you do
something especially helpful for them. But is a thousand thanks
enough?
Let's consider it from a syllable-minimization point of view:
Ten thanks ("ten" -- ONE syllable)
a hundred thanks ("a hundred" -- THREE syllables)
a thousand thanks ("a thousand"-- three syllables)
a million thanks ("a million" -- three syllables)
a billion thanks ("a billion" -- three syllables)
a trillion thanks ("a trillion" -- three syllables)
a quadrillion thanks ("a quadrillion" -- FOUR syllables)
So clearly we see that if you are going to give more than ten thanks,
you might as well give a trillion thanks. It's the best bargain for
three syllables.**
In this day of terabyte hard drives and petaflop supercomputers
( http://www.top500.org/ ), a thousand thanks simply may not be
enough! (Not to mention considerations of inflation.)
(Strange phrase, "not to mention" -- since we always proceed to
mention what we are "not to mention". A bit like, "Not to change the
subject, but...." after which the subject is always changed.)
** with the proviso that we are using generally-accepted numbers. If
we go to more exotic numbers, we can get considerably more thanks for
three syllables. "A googol" gives us one followed by 100 zeroes (it
is said to be the term for which the search engine "Google" is a
misspelling****); "a centillion" gives us either one followed by 303
or 600 zeroes, depending on date and side-of-pond; and for four
syllables, you can get "a googolplex" -- a one followed by a googol of
zeroes ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_large_numbers )
**** "[Google founders] Page and Brin originally nicknamed their new
search engine "BackRub", because the system checked backlinks to
estimate the importance of a site.[33][34][35] Eventually, they
changed the name to Google, originating from a misspelling of the word
'googol',[36][37] the number one followed by one hundred zeros, which
was picked to signify that the search engine wants to provide large
quantities of information for people.[38]" [numeric references at the
hyperlinked page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google ; incidentally,
the Google campus in Mountain View, California, USA, is called the
"Googleplex," a play on the "googolplex" mentioned earlier (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google#Googleplex )
A googolplex of thanks to you all! (Oh dear, the "of" makes it FIVE
syllables!)
Hope you are all in good spirits....
--
Brett (in Berkeley, California, USA)
http://www.ForeverFunds.org/
My plan for erasing poverty from the world with micro-endowments that
"give" forever into the future
Reinhold {Rey} Aman
>
> Hope you are all in good spirits....
>
A zillion thanks in advance.
James Hogg
> Robert Bannister skrev:
>
>> I take the rule, such as it is, to be: "like me", "as I (do)".
>
> Okay.
>
> I certainly hope people like me as I do.
As you do what?
--
James
Berkeley Brett
But dear Reinhold, you have not specified how many zeroes in a
zillion!
(I do apologize for having given a googolplex of thanks to all and
sundry -- this was perhaps extravagant for Usenet, since even if you
could write one zero on each particle in the known Universe, you could
not write out a googolplex. I hope it did not cause any traffic
problems on the global internet. Though being flooded with overmuch
thanks is surely better than being flooded with overmuch spam! (And
really now, isn't ANY spam overmuch spam?) )
Berkeley Brett
you are all in good spirits...." is not a question, but the statement
of a wish!
It's a bit like another wish-statement I often use....
"May all sentient beings -- except one annoying colleague -- find
true, enduring happiness...."
(This, of course, includes our friend Reinhold, who is most certainly
NOT to be confused with the aforementioned annoying colleague!)
Joachim Pense
like himself
Joachim
Bertel Lund Hansen
> You can mystify me by using almost any acronym. I tend to skip over them
> as so much noise anyway.
I don't like them either.
> It's not just the Net; read any spy or war story - almost any
> story these days - and you find a plethora of abbreviations. I
> do blame America or possibly the American military for this
> relatively modern phenomenon.
Maybe they invented it, but you must really blame the people who
uncritically take up the idea. At least they served a purpose
when telegraphing was expensive. And if the American military
hadn't invented them, someone else would have.
--
Bertel, Denmark