I wonder, how do you feel about the use of the phrase "thanks in advance"? I suspect most of you have seen this used on internet message boards. Example:
"Does anyone know anything about the dependence of the Mexican Spotted Owl and the Northern Flying Squirrel on coarse woody debris (for such things as cover and truffle production)? Thanks in advance for sharing your knowledge..."
Well, I guess the "classical" sequence of thanking is that you do something helpful for me, and I then thank you for it. If I had *asked* you to do something helpful for me, it would have been 1) my request, 2) your performance, 3) my thanks. Of course, with "thanks in advance," we merge 1 and 3: 1) my request and advanced appreciation, 2) your performance.
I can see that some might find "advanced thanking" rude because 1) it diminishes the amount of "work" I do relative to your helpful action, and 2) it creates a strange kind of involuntary obligation (if a specific person is asked to do a specific thing) -- it's as if your declining to fulfill the request for helpful action will result in this frustrated thanking-energy shooting around the Universe like a lightning bolt and surely causing some mischief somewhere.
On the other hand, advanced thanking is more efficient. On message boards, it removes the requirement that a separate message containing only thanks should be posted, perhaps frustrating the reader who had clicked it hoping for more content.
Of course, if we're into maximizing efficiency, couldn't we thank a given person in advance for ALL the kind and helpful things they might do for us and then have done with it? We could conclude with, "Consider yourself thanked!" :P
Well, um .... thanks in advance for any thoughts you might have to share on this timely subject.
-- Brett (in Berkeley, California, USA) http://www.ForeverFunds.org/ My plan for erasing poverty from the world with micro-endowments that "give" forever into the future
Berkeley Brett wrote: > I hope you are all in good spirits.
Yes, thank you, for my part.
> I wonder, how do you feel about the use of the phrase "thanks in > advance"? I suspect most of you have seen this used on internet > message boards. Example:
> "Does anyone know anything about the dependence of the Mexican > Spotted Owl and the Northern Flying Squirrel on coarse woody debris > (for such things as cover and truffle production)? Thanks in > advance for sharing your knowledge..."
"I would be very grateful if anyone could help me learn more about coarse woody debris, a substance in which I have an almost passionate interest." I suppose you would then be obliged to thank them afterwards.
> [analysis, pros and cons]
> Of course, if we're into maximizing efficiency, couldn't we thank a > given person in advance for ALL the kind and helpful things they > might do for us and then have done with it? We could conclude with, > "Consider yourself thanked!" :P
I'm afraid my reaction to that one would be "Consider yourself kissed off."
> Well, um .... thanks in advance for any thoughts you might have to > share on this timely subject.
You're pre-emptively welcome, supposing you'll still be grateful at this point.
> I can see that some might find "advanced thanking" rude because 1) it > diminishes the amount of "work" I do relative to your helpful action, > and 2) it creates a strange kind of involuntary obligation (if a > specific person is asked to do a specific thing) -- it's as if your > declining to fulfill the request for helpful action will result in > this frustrated thanking-energy shooting around the Universe like a > lightning bolt and surely causing some mischief somewhere.
I am very interested in reading answers to that question - I work in an international Company, and I often write EMails asking for help. I am a native speaker of German, and I feel that in German the equivalent "Vielen Dank im Voraus" to "thanks in advance" is not considered rude. However, a colleague warned me about the possible impression of rudeness of this phrase in English, so I avoid it. But I would really like to hear the voice of native speakers on that.
>> I can see that some might find "advanced thanking" rude because 1) it >> diminishes the amount of "work" I do relative to your helpful action, >> and 2) it creates a strange kind of involuntary obligation (if a >> specific person is asked to do a specific thing) -- it's as if your >> declining to fulfill the request for helpful action will result in >> this frustrated thanking-energy shooting around the Universe like a >> lightning bolt and surely causing some mischief somewhere.
> I am very interested in reading answers to that question - I work in an > international Company, and I often write EMails asking for help. I am a > native speaker of German, and I feel that in German the equivalent > "Vielen Dank im Voraus" to "thanks in advance" is not considered rude. > However, a colleague warned me about the possible impression of rudeness > of this phrase in English, so I avoid it. But I would really like to > hear the voice of native speakers on that.
> Thanks in advance :-)
> Joachim
I think it's intended to be polite, but can sound a bit rude. I've got a third reason - when you're asking someone to do something for you, it's a bit rude to assume they will of course agree - and thanking them in advance implies that of course they wouldn't refuse to help someone as important as you are!
This can happen in cases in which both of you know perfectly well that the other person will carry out your request - in a business setting, for example, where it's the other person's job to provide the object or service. You say 'thank you' afterwards to be polite, but if you say 'thanks in advance' it might sound like you're taking the other person for granted.
That being said, 'Thanks in advance' is used sometimes in English, with no evident intent to offend or condescend. I don't use it, though.
> I wonder, how do you feel about the use of the phrase "thanks in > advance"? I suspect most of you have seen this used on internet > message boards.
I have seen it (in Danish and other languages) in many connections, and it has always struck me as odd. It's a very impersonal kind af thanks.
> Of course, if we're into maximizing efficiency, couldn't we thank a > given person in advance for ALL the kind and helpful things they might > do for us and then have done with it? We could conclude with, > "Consider yourself thanked!" :P
It could be made even more efficient: Every child is required some time before its fifth birthday to say out loud: "Thanks everyone". And then never again.
In a Danish shop with personal service and an ordinary order variations af "thank you" may easily be exchanged six times. I wouldn't want it any other way.
> I wonder, how do you feel about the use of the phrase "thanks in > advance"? . . . > I can see that some might find "advanced thanking" rude because 1) it > diminishes the amount of "work" I do relative to your helpful action, > and 2) it creates a strange kind of involuntary obligation (if a > specific person is asked to do a specific thing)
The #2 phenomenon may have emerged from the professional fund- raising industry. Several charities now send their sucker lists useless gifts (e.g. customized notepaper) as "thanks in advance" for the solicited donation.
But general hypersensitivity to this point might have been derived from dogmatic Freudianism, specifically the generalization that every denial is really an affirmation or confession. But the Sage of Vienna also observed that, sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.
-- Don Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada)
On Sat, 12 Feb 2011 04:47:49 -0800 (PST), Berkeley Brett wrote: > Example:
> "Does anyone know anything about the dependence of the Mexican Spotted > Owl and the Northern Flying Squirrel on coarse woody debris (for such > things as cover and truffle production)? Thanks in advance for > sharing your knowledge..."
I used to consider it quite rude. The subtext is "I won't be bothered to thank you after you answer my question, no matter whether it's the work of a moment or you spend considerable effort."
Perhaps I've mellowed, but it no longer bothers me so much. Maybe I've learned that thanks on Usenet are rare; maybe I look on it as almost a formula close, like "very truly yours" in a business letter.
Myself, I still try to say thanks after the fact, particularly when the help was very important to me or took considerable effort by the responder(s).
-- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai...
On Sat, 12 Feb 2011 14:30:18 +0100, Joachim Pense wrote: > I am very interested in reading answers to that question - I work in an > international Company, and I often write EMails asking for help. I am a > native speaker of German, and I feel that in German the equivalent > "Vielen Dank im Voraus" to "thanks in advance" is not considered rude. > However, a colleague warned me about the possible impression of rudeness > of this phrase in English, so I avoid it. But I would really like to > hear the voice of native speakers on that.
> Thanks in advance :-)
or what it's worth, I work in tech support, and every day I deal with many emails. Probably 10% to 20% of them are from people whose first language is not English. I don't expect the same nuances that I would from native speakers.
For example, many correspondents address me as "Dear". I don't mean "Dear Stan" or "Dear Mr. Brown", but just "Dear" at the start of the email. A native speaker would never do that, but I'm not bothered by seeing it.
What *does* bother me is "please do the needful" instead of a statement of what is wrong and what they need. For some reason, Indians seem to do this a lot.
I've wandered from the topic, haven't I? When I see "thanks in advance" at the end of an email requesting tech support, it doesn't bother me.
-- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai...
Cheryl <cperk...@mun.ca> writes: > On 2011-02-12 10:00 AM, Joachim Pense wrote: >> Am 12.02.2011 13:47, schrieb Berkeley Brett:
>>> I can see that some might find "advanced thanking" rude because 1) it >>> diminishes the amount of "work" I do relative to your helpful action, >>> and 2) it creates a strange kind of involuntary obligation (if a >>> specific person is asked to do a specific thing) -- it's as if your >>> declining to fulfill the request for helpful action will result in >>> this frustrated thanking-energy shooting around the Universe like a >>> lightning bolt and surely causing some mischief somewhere.
>> I am very interested in reading answers to that question - I work in an >> international Company, and I often write EMails asking for help. I am a >> native speaker of German, and I feel that in German the equivalent >> "Vielen Dank im Voraus" to "thanks in advance" is not considered rude. >> However, a colleague warned me about the possible impression of rudeness >> of this phrase in English, so I avoid it. But I would really like to >> hear the voice of native speakers on that.
>> Thanks in advance :-)
>> Joachim
> I think it's intended to be polite, but can sound a bit rude. I've got > a third reason - when you're asking someone to do something for you, > it's a bit rude to assume they will of course agree - and thanking > them in advance implies that of course they wouldn't refuse to help > someone as important as you are!
That's the main reason why I think it can taken to be a bit rude. I tend to work round it by putting a bit more effort into asking nicely (when I remember to). -- Online waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk
> I am very interested in reading answers to that question - I work in an > international Company, and I often write EMails asking for help. I am a > native speaker of German, and I feel that in German the equivalent > "Vielen Dank im Voraus" to "thanks in advance" is not considered rude.
I am a Dane, and "P forh nd tak" is a very well-known phrase. I don't think the perception differs with nationality. Some people think it is polite, and others, like I, find it ridiculous or irritating.
> In a Danish shop with personal service and an ordinary order > variations af "thank you" may easily be exchanged six times. I > wouldn't want it any other way.
Ah yes. We do that in England too.
I pass the tin of beans to the shop keeper. He says "thank you". I rings it up on the till and says "that will be 37p". I pass him 50p. He says "thank you". He passes me 13p change. I say "thank you". He gives me the beans back. I say "thank you". He says "thank you".
> Myself, I still try to say thanks after the fact, particularly when > the help was very important to me or took considerable effort by the > responder(s).
I never write "Thanks in advance" or the like. If I get help as a sideissue in some thread, I don't thank unless it's some effort. If I start a thread asking for help, I seldom forget to thank the people taking the trouble to help me.
In the Danish usenet it is considered a bit rude not to follow up on such a thread - not necessarily with thanks, but at least with a note about what worked and what didn't. This will help silent readers who have the same problem.
> On 2011-02-12 10:00 AM, Joachim Pense wrote: >> Am 12.02.2011 13:47, schrieb Berkeley Brett:
>>> I can see that some might find "advanced thanking" rude because 1) it >>> diminishes the amount of "work" I do relative to your helpful action, >>> and 2) it creates a strange kind of involuntary obligation (if a >>> specific person is asked to do a specific thing) -- it's as if your >>> declining to fulfill the request for helpful action will result in >>> this frustrated thanking-energy shooting around the Universe like a >>> lightning bolt and surely causing some mischief somewhere.
>> I am very interested in reading answers to that question - I work in an >> international Company, and I often write EMails asking for help. I am a >> native speaker of German, and I feel that in German the equivalent >> "Vielen Dank im Voraus" to "thanks in advance" is not considered rude. >> However, a colleague warned me about the possible impression of rudeness >> of this phrase in English, so I avoid it. But I would really like to >> hear the voice of native speakers on that.
>> Thanks in advance :-)
>> Joachim
> I think it's intended to be polite, but can sound a bit rude. I've got a > third reason - when you're asking someone to do something for you, it's > a bit rude to assume they will of course agree - and thanking them in > advance implies that of course they wouldn't refuse to help someone as > important as you are!
> This can happen in cases in which both of you know perfectly well that > the other person will carry out your request - in a business setting, > for example, where it's the other person's job to provide the object or > service. You say 'thank you' afterwards to be polite, but if you say > 'thanks in advance' it might sound like you're taking the other person > for granted.
> That being said, 'Thanks in advance' is used sometimes in English, with > no evident intent to offend or condescend. I don't use it, though.
When I request assistance on a problem on a technical newsgroup I often use "Thanks in Advance" and, when not on a.u.english, I may abbreviate it to TIA. I suppose I might preface the question by saying "I would be grateful for assistance" or something similar but I think that is implied by TIA, is a common usage and allows brevity. I usually post a reply thanking people for their answers.
I would not use "Thanks in advance" in a formal "snail mail" request but, even if the usage is redundant, I do not find it condescending. I must admit that I am irritated by things like "Thank you for your prompt reply" in letters.
On Sat, 12 Feb 2011 08:47:16 -0500, Don Phillipson wrote: > The #2 phenomenon may have emerged from the professional fund- > raising industry. Several charities now send their sucker lists > useless gifts (e.g. customized notepaper) as "thanks in advance" > for the solicited donation.
Now??? At least in the US, that's long-standing practice. The charity would send address labels or something else, and include a demand for a "donation". Many people felt obliged to comply, since it was less work than sending the labels back.
This abuse was ended by Federal legislation, in the 1960s if I recall correctly, to the effect that if someone sends you something unsolicited in the mail, it's yours to keep or discard, with no obligation to the sender. (The obvious exception is a good-faith error, such as a misaddressed package.) Some charities still send out unsolicited merchandise, but I think most people now know that there is no return obligation.
-- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai...
On Sat, 12 Feb 2011 04:47:49 -0800, Berkeley Brett wrote: > I wonder, how do you feel about the use of the phrase "thanks in > advance"?
BrE: The 'correct' (i.e. polite) term in the UK is 'Thanking you in anticipation', which has a long and honourable tradition in formal business letters. Thanks in advance just sounds ignorant to my (grumpy old man) ears.
It had never occurred to me that 'tia' in newsgroups and emails could mean anything other than "Thanking you in anticipation" but your question challenges my blithe assumption.
On Sat, 12 Feb 2011 15:06:36 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote: > I am a Dane, and "På forhånd tak" is a very well-known phrase. I > don't think the perception differs with nationality. Some people > think it is polite, and others, like I, find it ridiculous or > irritating.
No disrespect intended, but that should be "like me". Your English is extremely good, so I hope you won't mind the correction.
> Another variation often sees in usenet:
> Hope this helps.
> Why else write it?
That is code for "I am not sure, but I can't be bothered to verify this solution," or perhaps for "if this makes things worse, don't blame me."
-- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai...
On Sat, 12 Feb 2011 10:25:01 -0330, Cheryl <cperk...@mun.ca> wrote: >On 2011-02-12 10:00 AM, Joachim Pense wrote: >> Am 12.02.2011 13:47, schrieb Berkeley Brett:
>>> I can see that some might find "advanced thanking" rude because 1) it >>> diminishes the amount of "work" I do relative to your helpful action, >>> and 2) it creates a strange kind of involuntary obligation (if a >>> specific person is asked to do a specific thing) -- it's as if your >>> declining to fulfill the request for helpful action will result in >>> this frustrated thanking-energy shooting around the Universe like a >>> lightning bolt and surely causing some mischief somewhere.
>> I am very interested in reading answers to that question - I work in an >> international Company, and I often write EMails asking for help. I am a >> native speaker of German, and I feel that in German the equivalent >> "Vielen Dank im Voraus" to "thanks in advance" is not considered rude. >> However, a colleague warned me about the possible impression of rudeness >> of this phrase in English, so I avoid it. But I would really like to >> hear the voice of native speakers on that.
>> Thanks in advance :-)
>> Joachim
>I think it's intended to be polite, but can sound a bit rude. I've got a >third reason - when you're asking someone to do something for you, it's >a bit rude to assume they will of course agree - and thanking them in >advance implies that of course they wouldn't refuse to help someone as >important as you are!
>This can happen in cases in which both of you know perfectly well that >the other person will carry out your request - in a business setting, >for example, where it's the other person's job to provide the object or >service. You say 'thank you' afterwards to be polite, but if you say >'thanks in advance' it might sound like you're taking the other person >for granted.
>That being said, 'Thanks in advance' is used sometimes in English, with >no evident intent to offend or condescend. I don't use it, though.
I'm in the group that does not find "Thanks in advance" to be rude. For those who do, what's the reaction to the very common usage of "I would appreciate it if..."? Indicating appreciation will be in store for an act not-yet performed is the same, isn't it?
> On Sat, 12 Feb 2011 08:47:16 -0500, Don Phillipson wrote: >> The #2 phenomenon may have emerged from the professional fund- >> raising industry. Several charities now send their sucker lists >> useless gifts (e.g. customized notepaper) as "thanks in advance" >> for the solicited donation.
> Now??? At least in the US, that's long-standing practice. The > charity would send address labels or something else, and include a > demand for a "donation". Many people felt obliged to comply, since > it was less work than sending the labels back.
> This abuse was ended by Federal legislation, in the 1960s if I recall > correctly, to the effect that if someone sends you something > unsolicited in the mail, it's yours to keep or discard, with no > obligation to the sender. (The obvious exception is a good-faith > error, such as a misaddressed package.) Some charities still send > out unsolicited merchandise, but I think most people now know that > there is no return obligation.
It is certainly true that there is no obligation to return unsolicited materials but the "guilt factor" seems to work and I sometimes feel irrationally dubious about using things like address labels when I have not made a contribution. Another irritating habit of charities is to include a return card with suggested donations like: "Please check $50 (), $100 (), Other ()"
> On Sat, 12 Feb 2011 10:25:01 -0330, Cheryl<cperk...@mun.ca> wrote:
>> On 2011-02-12 10:00 AM, Joachim Pense wrote: >>> Am 12.02.2011 13:47, schrieb Berkeley Brett:
>>>> I can see that some might find "advanced thanking" rude because 1) it >>>> diminishes the amount of "work" I do relative to your helpful action, >>>> and 2) it creates a strange kind of involuntary obligation (if a >>>> specific person is asked to do a specific thing) -- it's as if your >>>> declining to fulfill the request for helpful action will result in >>>> this frustrated thanking-energy shooting around the Universe like a >>>> lightning bolt and surely causing some mischief somewhere.
>>> I am very interested in reading answers to that question - I work in an >>> international Company, and I often write EMails asking for help. I am a >>> native speaker of German, and I feel that in German the equivalent >>> "Vielen Dank im Voraus" to "thanks in advance" is not considered rude. >>> However, a colleague warned me about the possible impression of rudeness >>> of this phrase in English, so I avoid it. But I would really like to >>> hear the voice of native speakers on that.
>>> Thanks in advance :-)
>>> Joachim
>> I think it's intended to be polite, but can sound a bit rude. I've got a >> third reason - when you're asking someone to do something for you, it's >> a bit rude to assume they will of course agree - and thanking them in >> advance implies that of course they wouldn't refuse to help someone as >> important as you are!
>> This can happen in cases in which both of you know perfectly well that >> the other person will carry out your request - in a business setting, >> for example, where it's the other person's job to provide the object or >> service. You say 'thank you' afterwards to be polite, but if you say >> 'thanks in advance' it might sound like you're taking the other person >> for granted.
>> That being said, 'Thanks in advance' is used sometimes in English, with >> no evident intent to offend or condescend. I don't use it, though.
> I'm in the group that does not find "Thanks in advance" to be rude. > For those who do, what's the reaction to the very common usage of "I > would appreciate it if..."? Indicating appreciation will be in store > for an act not-yet performed is the same, isn't it?
It sounds more polite to me because it does not take fulfillment of the request for granted.
Looking at the answers, I feel there is no difference between German and English here - all the considerations I saw here also apply to the corresponding German usage.
>> I am very interested in reading answers to that question - I work in an >> international Company, and I often write EMails asking for help. I am a >> native speaker of German, and I feel that in German the equivalent >> "Vielen Dank im Voraus" to "thanks in advance" is not considered rude.
> I am a Dane, and "På forhånd tak" is a very well-known phrase. I > don't think the perception differs with nationality. Some people > think it is polite, and others, like I, find it ridiculous or > irritating.
> Another variation often sees in usenet:
> Hope this helps.
> Why else write it?
But HTH that is not a variation of TIA - the one who provided the answer appends it to the answer. I take it as a short form of "I think the information I provided is complete and useful for you, but if not, feel free to ask me again."
> On Sat, 12 Feb 2011 15:06:36 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote: >> I am a Dane, and "På forhånd tak" is a very well-known phrase. I >> don't think the perception differs with nationality. Some people >> think it is polite, and others, like I, find it ridiculous or >> irritating.
> No disrespect intended, but that should be "like me". Your English > is extremely good, so I hope you won't mind the correction.
>> Another variation often sees in usenet:
>> Hope this helps.
>> Why else write it?
> That is code for "I am not sure, but I can't be bothered to verify > this solution," or perhaps for "if this makes things worse, don't > blame me."
I beg to differ. If I am not sure or don't care to verify the solution, I might write "FWIW" (For what it's worth). "HTH" to me expresses the opposite: "I think that this solution is ok, and I hope this assumption will prove to be correct".
> This abuse was ended by Federal legislation, in the 1960s if I recall > correctly, to the effect that if someone sends you something > unsolicited in the mail, it's yours to keep or discard, with no > obligation to the sender. (The obvious exception is a good-faith > error, such as a misaddressed package.) Some charities still send > out unsolicited merchandise, but I think most people now know that > there is no return obligation.
I am surprised to learn that there could have been a return obligation before.
> It is certainly true that there is no obligation to return unsolicited > materials but the "guilt factor" seems to work and I sometimes feel > irrationally dubious about using things like address labels when I have > not made a contribution.
>
AFAIK in Germany, you need not send back unsolicited material, but you mustn't use it or throw it away either - you have to store it for an appropriate time so the sender can come and take it back.
Joachim Pense wrote: > So schrieb Bertel Lund Hansen: >> Joachim Pense skrev:
>>> I am very interested in reading answers to that question - I work >>> in an international Company, and I often write EMails asking for >>> help. I am a native speaker of German, and I feel that in German >>> the equivalent "Vielen Dank im Voraus" to "thanks in advance" is >>> not considered rude.
>> I am a Dane, and "På forhånd tak" is a very well-known phrase. I >> don't think the perception differs with nationality. Some people >> think it is polite, and others, like I, find it ridiculous or >> irritating.
>> Another variation often sees in usenet:
>> Hope this helps.
>> Why else write it?
> But HTH that is not a variation of TIA - the one who provided the > answer appends it to the answer. I take it as a short form of "I > think the information I provided is complete and useful for you, > but if not, feel free to ask me again."
Is it often used straightforwardly, in your experience? I've usually seen it in ironic use: I Fixed Your Post For You - Happy To Help - Have A Nice Day.
