What's a Return?
MC
life I stopped to wonder what the hell it meant...
Lars Eighner
<copeSP-E64FBE....@mail.inter.net>,
the lovely and talented MC
broadcast on alt.usage.english:
> I just wished someone "Many happy returns" and for the first time in my
> life I stopped to wonder what the hell it meant...
It is short for "(I wish you have) many happy returns of the day." It
is a common birthday sentiment. In other words, "Have many more happy
birthdays."
--
Lars Eighner -finger for geek code- eig...@io.com http://www.io.com/~eighner/
The surest way to remain poor is to be honest. --Napoleon Bonaparte
Dena Jo
>> I just wished someone "Many happy returns" and for the first time
>> in my life I stopped to wonder what the hell it meant...
>
> It is short for "(I wish you have) many happy returns of the day."
> It is a common birthday sentiment. In other words, "Have many
> more happy birthdays."
I've always thought it meant may good things happen to you today, that
"return" is being used in a similar vein to a good return on an
investment.
--
Dena Jo
(Email: Replace TPUBGTH with denajo2)
Eric Walker
>I just wished someone "Many happy returns" and for the first
>time in my life I stopped to wonder what the hell it meant...
It means "May this day (that is, this _kind_ of day, such as a
birthday) return happily many more times." It is thus rightly
applicable only to celebratory days that recur regularly: it
would be bizarre to say it for, as an example, a wedding.
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker
My opinions on English are available at
http://owlcroft.com/english/
Chris Malcolm
Since a birthday is technically speaking in astrological jargon a
solar return (the sun returns to the same place in the tropical zodiac
as it occupied at the time of your birth), I always supposed that
"Many Happy Returns" meant "May you have many happy solar returns",
i.e., "May you have many happy birthdays".
--
Chris Malcolm c...@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
Dena Jo
> Since a birthday is technically speaking in astrological jargon a
> solar return (the sun returns to the same place in the tropical
> zodiac as it occupied at the time of your birth), I always
> supposed that "Many Happy Returns" meant "May you have many happy
> solar returns", i.e., "May you have many happy birthdays".
That seems to be most people's interpretation. I can accept the fact
that I'm wrong...
Armond Perretta
Perhaps. A friend of ours who often has bad luck with home appliances
eschews the warranty route. She returns the item for credit and then
purchases an identical model as a replacement.
She's had many happy returns.
--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.tripod.com
david56
> On 29 Oct 2003, Chris Malcolm posted thus:
>
> > Since a birthday is technically speaking in astrological jargon a
> > solar return (the sun returns to the same place in the tropical
> > zodiac as it occupied at the time of your birth), I always
> > supposed that "Many Happy Returns" meant "May you have many happy
> > solar returns", i.e., "May you have many happy birthdays".
>
> That seems to be most people's interpretation. I can accept the fact
> that I'm wrong...
So you can, but will you?
--
David
=====
Dena Jo
>> That seems to be most people's interpretation. I can accept the
>> fact that I'm wrong...
>
> So you can, but will you?
NEVER!
Huw
Buddhist influence unfortunately, so get ready for your Nirvana.
Birthdays celebrate the fact that you are older, and thus shortly
going to die. "Many happy returns" is the venacular for "may your
reincarnations monotonically increase through the levels of being".
Obviously, original colonists had problems with their first language
inference, and so it transmogrified to "Many happy returns".
This of course is pure prescriptive bollox, but as convincing as any
other explanation I have seen (and there have been few).
Huw.
Eric Walker
[...]
>This of course is pure prescriptive bollox, but as convincing
>as any other explanation I have seen (and there have been
>few).
The dictionary is your friend. Trust your friends.
Dr Robin Bignall
<TPUBGTH.don't.use.this...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 29 Oct 2003, david56 posted thus:
>
>>> That seems to be most people's interpretation. I can accept the
>>> fact that I'm wrong...
>>
>> So you can, but will you?
>
>NEVER!
I thought you were weakening for a moment earlier in the thread, but I'm
relieved to see that you're not. Apologies are for wimps.
--
wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall
Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England
Dena Jo
> I thought you were weakening for a moment earlier in the thread,
> but I'm relieved to see that you're not. Apologies are for wimps.
I was practicing being humble.
Tony Cooper
<TPUBGTH.don't.use.this...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 29 Oct 2003, Dr Robin Bignall posted thus:
>
>> I thought you were weakening for a moment earlier in the thread,
>> but I'm relieved to see that you're not. Apologies are for wimps.
>
>I was practicing being humble.
You spoiled it by looking so smug for doing so well.
Dr Robin Bignall
<TPUBGTH.don't.use.this...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 29 Oct 2003, Dr Robin Bignall posted thus:
>
>> I thought you were weakening for a moment earlier in the thread,
>> but I'm relieved to see that you're not. Apologies are for wimps.
>
>I was practicing being humble.
Whatever for? You'll be expecting me to post serious stuff next. Can a
leopard change its spots?
bayskater
>time in my life I stopped to wonder what the hell it meant...
It's an expression used mostly by H&R Block employees.
Fred
Charles Riggs
Anything for Brownie points, is her motto.
--
Charles Riggs
Tony Cooper
wrote:
Is this correct? Capitalizing the word makes "Brownie" a reference to
that organization of young girls. The pre-Girl Scouts or whatever
they are.
Are brownie/Brownie points a reference to points scored by little
girls, or a reference to ass-kissing and the nearness to the brown
stuff?
I really don't know.
Dena Jo
> Are brownie/Brownie points a reference to points scored by little
> girls, or a reference to ass-kissing and the nearness to the brown
> stuff?
>
> I really don't know.
Main Entry: brownie point
Function: noun
Usage: often capitalized B
Date: circa 1962
: a credit regarded as earned especially by currying favor (as with a
superior)
Harvey Van Sickle
I always assumed it was the "little girls" reference -- like earning
points towards your badges in cubs.
--
Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 21 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey to whhvs)
david56
I thought it had something to do with the selling of cookie-like
comestibles from door to door (this doesn't happen in the UK). Those
who sold the most brownies got the most points. No?
--
David
=====
R F
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003, david56 wrote:
> I thought it had something to do with the selling of cookie-like
> comestibles from door to door (this doesn't happen in the UK). Those
> who sold the most brownies got the most points. No?
You consider brownies to be "cookie-like"?
david56
Weeks of my life have been wasted in this place, arguing about the
nature of the difference between cookies, biscuits and brownies. I
thought it might stir up a little controversy for my entertainment.
--
David
=====
R F
AFAICS, the only similarity between a brownie and a cookie is that both
are baked goods of a more-or-less sweet variety.
Interestingly, M-W has no listing for "blondie", a brownie-like baked good
sans chocolateness, but Google confirms that the term is well-established.
Tony Cooper
The Brownies don't sell cookies (to the best of my knowledge) and the
Girl Scouts do not sell brownies. I hesitate to mention this, because
Richard might treat it as a Subject of Importance, but I don't think a
brownie is a cookie.
Girl Scout cookies are actually very good. Especially the chocolate
minty things. Girl Scout cookie time is the one time of year that I
don't mind being approached by grubby little tykes selling things.
How do the Girl Guides finance the extras?
david56
Searching only serves to show that the origin of Brownie Points is
uncertain.
> Girl Scout cookies are actually very good. Especially the chocolate
> minty things. Girl Scout cookie time is the one time of year that I
> don't mind being approached by grubby little tykes selling things.
>
> How do the Girl Guides finance the extras?
Jumble sales, car boot sales, sponsored events (walking, swimming),
cadging off their parents. Oh yes, bag packing at the supermarket.
I always give them a pound but I'd rather they didn't pack my
shopping. No teenager knows how to pack £70 worth of varied
groceries and fresh food - they just shove it into bags in the order
they pick it up. I think Bob-a-Job week has long gone as being too
dangerous for the little dears.
--
David
=====
Eric Walker
[...]
>Searching only serves to show that the origin of Brownie
>Points is uncertain.
?!?
Surely it comes from the same origin as "brown-nose"? One who
brown-noses earns brownie points.
Just checked _The Oxford Dictionary of Slang_: it too suggests
that origin.
david56
> On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:46:08 -0000, david56 wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> >Searching only serves to show that the origin of Brownie
> >Points is uncertain.
>
> ?!?
>
> Surely it comes from the same origin as "brown-nose"? One who
> brown-noses earns brownie points.
>
> Just checked _The Oxford Dictionary of Slang_: it too suggests
> that origin.
That was one of the common suggestions I found online - the other
most common was the awarding of points to Brownies for good
behaviour. My sister was a Brownie but I don't recall her ever
getting any points.
--
David
=====
R F
[AEUCDDD]
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003, Tony Cooper wrote:
> The Brownies don't sell cookies (to the best of my knowledge) and the
> Girl Scouts do not sell brownies. I hesitate to mention this, because
> Richard might treat it as a Subject of Importance, but I don't think a
> brownie is a cookie.
Dead right, Coop. A brownie is not a cookie. You might be able to argue
that a brownie is uncountable cake.
Tony Cooper
>> How do the Girl Guides finance the extras?
>
>Jumble sales, car boot sales, sponsored events (walking, swimming),
>cadging off their parents. Oh yes, bag packing at the supermarket.
>I always give them a pound but I'd rather they didn't pack my
>shopping. No teenager knows how to pack £70 worth of varied
>groceries and fresh food - they just shove it into bags in the order
>they pick it up. I think Bob-a-Job week has long gone as being too
>dangerous for the little dears.
A popular means of raising money for various teenager groups is having
a car wash. Kinda fun to watch. There will be half a dozen
screaming, jumping, car wash sign-waving 12 year old girls dressed
like hookers and showing more skin than a bunch of bananas waving in
johns ..err, customers... from the street. They get more water and
soap on each other than on the car. The car is somewhat washed.
There's no charge but tips are accepted. Places like McDonald's
allow them to use the parking lots for these car washes.
Tony Cooper
That explanation would be clearer if you gave us some indication of
your sister's demeanor. Wild and disruptive, or good but unnoticed?
Tony Cooper
wrote:
I knew you'd make a hash of it.
Charles Riggs
<tony_co...@mungedyahoo.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:08:24 +0000, Charles Riggs <chr...@eircom.net>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 00:15:13 GMT, Tony Cooper
>><tony_co...@mungedyahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On 29 Oct 2003 23:50:32 GMT, Dena Jo
>>><TPUBGTH.don't.use.this...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 29 Oct 2003, Dr Robin Bignall posted thus:
>>>>
>>>>> I thought you were weakening for a moment earlier in the thread,
>>>>> but I'm relieved to see that you're not. Apologies are for wimps.
>>>>
>>>>I was practicing being humble.
>>>
>>>You spoiled it by looking so smug for doing so well.
>>
>>Anything for Brownie points, is her motto.
>
>Is this correct?
Certainly...on both counts. I am rarely wrong. For the capitalization,
the OED has:
Special Comb.: Brownie point colloq. (orig. U.S.) [prob. a development
from brown-nose s.v. brown a. 7, but popularly associated with sense 2
above and hence freq. spelled with capital initial], a notional credit
for an achievement; favour in the eyes of another, esp. gained by
sycophantic or servile behaviour.
1963 Amer. Speech XXXVIII. 169 To curry favor with a professor:
brown nose+brownie+get *brownie points. 1971 M. Tak Truck Talk 19
Brownie points, theoretical points gained by a trucker who goes out of
his way to do a favor for a dispatcher. 1976 N. Thornburg Cutter &
Bone vii. 169, I said it was his big chance to make Brownie points
with the old man. 1980 Daily Tel. 6 Sept. 19/3 Overall, the societies
are considered more friendly than the banks though the banks get
brownie points for speed in dealing with transactions. 1986 Times
Educ. Suppl. 9 May 6/3 The clause would not be used to ‘punish’
teachers. Those who took part in extra activities would get a Brownie
point, he said, but classroom effectiveness would be the prime test of
a teacher's success.
As for the other, trust me, although I realize you're her little
buddy.
--
Charles Riggs
david56
I suspect she would have been a Brownie of middling temperament, for
whom an average number of points would have been expected, if points
were awarded.
We haven't heard from anybody who knows from personal experience that
Brownies are rewarded with points, in the UK or US. If this is where
the phrase came from, somebody must remember getting points. I was a
Wolf Cub (=US and now UK Cub Scout) and we didn't get points. We got
badges and a Leaping Wolf, but no points.
--
David
=====
david56
I have made it a point of principle never to allow children or
teenagers to wash my car. They are too prone to dropping the sponge
onto the tarmac, then using it to scratch the paintwork.
--
David
=====
Daniel James
wrote:
> Is this correct? Capitalizing the word makes "Brownie" a reference to
> that organization of young girls. The pre-Girl Scouts or whatever
> they are.
>
> Are brownie/Brownie points a reference to points scored by little
Yes, that's it. Sometimes someone who seems overkeen to acquire "Brownie
points" is said to be "chasing a Brownie badge".
Nothing to do with brown-nosing as far as I'm aware.
Cheers,
Daniel.
Dena Jo
> Yes, that's it. Sometimes someone who seems overkeen to acquire
> "Brownie points" is said to be "chasing a Brownie badge".
But Brownies don't acquire badges the way Girl Scouts do.
Dena Jo
> We haven't heard from anybody who knows from personal experience
> that Brownies are rewarded with points, in the UK or US.
I was a Brownie, and we didn't get points, nor we didn't sell cookies.
And we saluted with only two fingers instead of three.
My money's on the brown-nosing origin.
--
Dena Jo
And we didn't gamble.
david56
> On 31 Oct 2003, Daniel James posted thus:
>
> > Yes, that's it. Sometimes someone who seems overkeen to acquire
> > "Brownie points" is said to be "chasing a Brownie badge".
>
> But Brownies don't acquire badges the way Girl Scouts do.
Go on, please, tell us how Girl Scouts acquire badges.
--
David
=====
Tony Cooper
<TPUBGTH.don't.use.this...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 31 Oct 2003, david56 posted thus:
>
>> We haven't heard from anybody who knows from personal experience
>> that Brownies are rewarded with points, in the UK or US.
>
>I was a Brownie, and we didn't get points, nor we didn't sell cookies.
>And we saluted with only two fingers instead of three.
>
>My money's on the brown-nosing origin.
You just earned the coveted OY! merit badge.
Dena Jo
> Go on, please, tell us how Girl Scouts acquire badges.
A parent had to verify that you'd completed whatever tasks needed to be
completed in order to earn to get the badge. They would verify it by
signing next to each task.
I learned at an early age to forge my mother's signature.
That's right. I *cheated* my way into many of my badges.
--
Dena Jo
Still have my GS sash and unearned badges
Dena Jo
>>I was a Brownie, and we didn't get points, nor we didn't sell
>>cookies. And we saluted with only two fingers instead of three.
>>
>>My money's on the brown-nosing origin.
>
> You just earned the coveted OY! merit badge.
Oh, wow! At the last moment, I changed an "and" to "nor" but didn't
bother to reread the sentence. I hate when I do that.
So what's pictured on the OY! badge? A kvetch?
--
Dena Jo
Dena Jo
> completed in order to earn to get the badge
Did it again. "Completed in order to earn the badge."
--
Dena Jo
Matti Lamprhey
> On 31 Oct 2003, Daniel James posted thus:
>
> > Yes, that's it. Sometimes someone who seems overkeen to acquire
> > "Brownie points" is said to be "chasing a Brownie badge".
>
> But Brownies don't acquire badges the way Girl Scouts do.
Brownie Points are associated with steenkin' badges, I assume.
Matti
Dr Robin Bignall
wrote:
By letting boys scout, as far as I remember.
--
wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall
Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England
R F
On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, Charles Riggs wrote:
> Certainly...on both counts. I am rarely wrong. For the capitalization,
> the OED has:
>
> Special Comb.: Brownie point colloq. (orig. U.S.) [prob. a development
> from brown-nose s.v. brown a. 7, but popularly associated with sense 2
> above and hence freq. spelled with capital initial], a notional credit
> for an achievement; favour in the eyes of another, esp. gained by
> sycophantic or servile behaviour.
> 1963 Amer. Speech XXXVIII. 169 To curry favor with a professor:
> brown nose+brownie+get *brownie points.
ProQuest's earliest hit, as far as I can tell, is a May 1, 1963 Washington
Post column by George Dixon, "Adding Up the Brownie Points":
I am informed there is an organization called the Brownies which awards
points for meritorious achievements and good deeds, such as whittling
a whistle from the leg of a dining room table and not pestering old
ladies who do not want to cross the street. The concept of "Brownie
Points" would seem to be without blemish, but actually it has fostered
a political monstrosity.
I have never been a Brownie myself, because of an innate ineligibility,
but if I were a Brownie emeritus I would be dismayed at the way the
"Brownie Point" system has been borrowed and subverted.
This monstrous distortion is especially flagrant in Washington.
Officeholders, those who wannt to be officeholders, and those who want
to ingratiate themselves with officeholders vie horribly for the political
equivalent of "Brownie Points."....
Trying to pile enough Brownie Points to win a merit badge is more than
a practice here in the Nation's Capital; it's an industry.
Sara Moffat Lorimer
> On 31 Oct 2003, david56 posted thus:
>
> > Go on, please, tell us how Girl Scouts acquire badges.
>
> A parent had to verify that you'd completed whatever tasks needed to be
> completed in order to earn to get the badge. They would verify it by
> signing next to each task.
As I recall, that's how I got my badges as a Brownie. I was in an
English-style Brownie troop in Finland, though. My parents were mildly
displeased to learn I'd sworn allegiance to the Queen.
I later was a boy scout in Denmark. In neither situation did we earn
points.
--
SML, former kelpie
ess el five six zero at columbia dot edu
http://pirate-women.com
Dena Jo
> I later was a boy scout in Denmark.
Um, is there something you want to share with us, Sara?
--
Dena Jo
Sara Moffat Lorimer
> On 31 Oct 2003, Sara Moffat Lorimer posted thus:
>
> > I later was a boy scout in Denmark.
>
> Um, is there something you want to share with us, Sara?
What? I've mentioned living in Denmark before. Oh...
I'd bought the wrong uniform -- the difference was all in the kerchief
clasp -- and according to the scout leader, that made me a boy scout.
--
SML, always a Sara
MEow
said:
>I later was a boy scout in Denmark. In neither situation did we earn
>points.
Oh. I was a girl scout in Denmark and we got what probably answers to
badges. It was small labels which you could sew on your shoulder
(right shoulder IIRC) once you had earned it, by doing or showing that
you've learned what was required to get the label. You could get one
for having learned how to handle a knife safely and so you were
allowed to use a knife, or one which showed that you had passed the
test about different knots, so you could brag about having passed that
test.
--
Nikitta a.a. #1759 Apatriot(No, not apricot)#18
ICQ# 251532856
Unreferenced footnotes: http://www.nut.house.cx/cgi-bin/nemwiki.pl?ISFN
"Naked women? I thought they only existed on the internet" Vinny (afdaniain)
MEow
said:
>What? I've mentioned living in Denmark before. Oh...
>
>I'd bought the wrong uniform -- the difference was all in the kerchief
>clasp -- and according to the scout leader, that made me a boy scout.
I've been a green scout and a blue scout, but have never heard of any
difference in girl's and boy's uniforms.
Dena Jo
> I've been a green scout and a blue scout, but have never heard of any
> difference in girl's and boy's uniforms.
In the U.S., Brownies and Girl Scouts wore dresses, and Cub Scouts and
Boy Scouts wore pants.
MEow
>In the U.S., Brownies and Girl Scouts wore dresses, and Cub Scouts and
>Boy Scouts wore pants.
In Denmark (at least in the 2 places I was and I've never heard of any
other scout organisations) the uniform only includes the shirt and a
scarf. Trousers or skirt was just to be "decent", as in "not
outrageous, clean and whole" or something to that effect.
Brian Wickham
wrote:
>
>ProQuest's earliest hit, as far as I can tell, is a May 1, 1963 Washington
>Post column by George Dixon, "Adding Up the Brownie Points":
>
> I am informed there is an organization called the Brownies which awards
> points for meritorious achievements and good deeds, such as whittling
> a whistle from the leg of a dining room table and not pestering old
> ladies who do not want to cross the street. The concept of "Brownie
> Points" would seem to be without blemish, but actually it has fostered
> a political monstrosity.
>
> I have never been a Brownie myself, because of an innate ineligibility,
> but if I were a Brownie emeritus I would be dismayed at the way the
> "Brownie Point" system has been borrowed and subverted.
>
> This monstrous distortion is especially flagrant in Washington.
> Officeholders, those who wannt to be officeholders, and those who want
> to ingratiate themselves with officeholders vie horribly for the political
> equivalent of "Brownie Points."....
>
> Trying to pile enough Brownie Points to win a merit badge is more than
> a practice here in the Nation's Capital; it's an industry.
>
>
I wouldn't put much faith in Dixon on this one. He needed a construct
to get him to "ass kissing" in Washington so he just made it up. He
couldn't very well submit a column about people in DC running around
with fecal matter on their noses.
I think the tipoff is "I am informed..." Dixon is obviously being
fey. You might also notice that his examples of good deeds are meant
to be humorous. He's "having fun" with this one.
We who grew up with these phrases know that "brownie point" is just a
substitute for "apple polishing" which is the G-Rated version of "ass
kissing" from which one gets a "brown nose". A person with a "brown
nose" has been busy earning "brownie points".
In my old elementary school a kid who ran to tell a teacher that
someone was fighting was later addressed as, "You f*ckin' brownie!"
Besides, so far those who have had any contact with the Brownies say
that "Brownie Points" are not associated with that organization. That
would be a clincher for me.
Brian Wickham
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
Dena Jo wrote:
[...]
> I was a Brownie, and we didn't get points, nor we didn't sell cookies.
> And we saluted with only two fingers instead of three.
And I salute annoying Brownies with *one* finger!
But only if they are really, really, annoying.
--
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
R F
On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, MEow wrote:
> While frolicking around in alt.usage.english, Dena Jo of said:
>
> >In the U.S., Brownies and Girl Scouts wore dresses, and Cub Scouts and
> >Boy Scouts wore pants.
>
> In Denmark (at least in the 2 places I was and I've never heard of any
> other scout organisations) the uniform only includes the shirt and a
> scarf. Trousers or skirt was just to be "decent", as in "not
> outrageous, clean and whole" or something to that effect.
I noticed that Sara Moffat Lorimer spoke of having been in the boy scouts
in Denmark (and Coop, that's *her* business), and I recall that our
sometime Danish participant Per Erik R<fallbackcharacter>nne spoke
frequently and wistfully of his experiences in a troop, or troupe, of
"Venture Scouts" prancing about the spires (and Spiras) of Oxford. So
what *is* it about Denmark and scouting organizations, anyway?
(And where *is* Per Erik R<fallbackcharacter>nne, anyway?)
R F
On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, Dena Jo wrote:
> On 31 Oct 2003, MEow posted thus:
>
> > I've been a green scout and a blue scout, but have never heard of any
> > difference in girl's and boy's uniforms.
>
> In the U.S., Brownies and Girl Scouts wore dresses, and Cub Scouts and
> Boy Scouts wore pants.
Is that still the case? Seems rather archaic, but then so does the very
idea of scouting. (Not that there's anything wrong with archaic things.)
Dena Jo
> Is that still the case?
Goodness, I hope not.
> Seems rather archaic
Well, my experience with the Scouts dates from the mid '60s. To put
that in perspective for you, in Los Angeles girls weren't allowed to
wear pants to school until 1970.
> but then so does the very idea of scouting.
Not too long ago, I was boinking with members of my screenwriting
newsgroup. Every man at boink, which is to say, everyone there except
me, had been a Boy Scout, and they all had wonderful stories to tell
about Jamborees, which apparently are some kind of major, competitive
gathering of Scout troops from across the U.S. I would never in a
million years have expected any one of those men to have been a Boy
Scout.
I think Scouting could serve a really useful purpose even today, but in
the areas where something like that would do the most good, something
like that would never fly.
ObAUE: Did I need the comma after "which is to say"?
Tony Cooper
<TPUBGTH.don't.use.this...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 31 Oct 2003, R F posted thus:
>
>> Is that still the case?
>
>Goodness, I hope not.
>
>> Seems rather archaic
>
>Well, my experience with the Scouts dates from the mid '60s. To put
>that in perspective for you, in Los Angeles girls weren't allowed to
>wear pants to school until 1970.
Did they wear patent leather shoes?
>ObAUE: Did I need the comma after "which is to say"?
Not with the distraction provided about the girls without pants.
Dena Jo
> Did they wear patent leather shoes?
No. Thank God I missed that.
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
> Reinhold (Rey) Aman wrote:
[...]
> > And I salute annoying Brownies with *one* finger!
> > But only if they are really, really, annoying.
> I recently heard that particular finger called the "social finger."
> Is this usage new or has my life been too sheltered?
It's new to me, too, Murray. Kinda stupid, if you ask me.
--
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
who prefers calling it _digitus impudicus_
http://www.sonic.net/maledicta/finger.html
Charles Riggs
<TPUBGTH.don't.use.this...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 31 Oct 2003, david56 posted thus:
>
>> We haven't heard from anybody who knows from personal experience
>> that Brownies are rewarded with points, in the UK or US.
>
>I was a Brownie, and we didn't get points, nor we didn't sell cookies.
>And we saluted with only two fingers instead of three.
>
>My money's on the brown-nosing origin.
Then I'm with you; I like to bet with the experts.
--
Charles Riggs
Donna Richoux
> On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, Charles Riggs wrote:
>
> > Certainly...on both counts. I am rarely wrong. For the capitalization,
> > the OED has:
> >
> > Special Comb.: Brownie point colloq. (orig. U.S.) [prob. a development
> > from brown-nose s.v. brown a. 7, but popularly associated with sense 2
> > above and hence freq. spelled with capital initial], a notional credit
> > for an achievement; favour in the eyes of another, esp. gained by
> > sycophantic or servile behaviour.
> > 1963 Amer. Speech XXXVIII. 169 To curry favor with a professor:
> > brown nose+brownie+get *brownie points.
>
> ProQuest's earliest hit, as far as I can tell, is a May 1, 1963 Washington
> Post column by George Dixon, "Adding Up the Brownie Points":
>
> I am informed there is an organization called the Brownies which awards
> points for meritorious achievements and good deeds, such as whittling
> a whistle from the leg of a dining room table and not pestering old
> ladies who do not want to cross the street. The concept of "Brownie
> Points" would seem to be without blemish, but actually it has fostered
> a political monstrosity.
>
> I have never been a Brownie myself, because of an innate ineligibility,
> but if I were a Brownie emeritus I would be dismayed at the way the
> "Brownie Point" system has been borrowed and subverted.
[snip]
For once, RHHDAS has entries earlier than ProQuest, then. One is from a
list of US Army jargon from 1944-1953, not defined. The second is marked
"College Vocab.", 1958, defined as "apple-polishing." The third is dated
1962 as general American slang.
I suppose the Washington Post columnist remark about "innate
ineligibility" means that he does know it is an association for little
girls. I checked the history at various Girl Scout sites and found that
the national US organization did not offer Brownies until -- the same
year, 1963. But some parts of the US did have Brownies locally before
then, such as a page that lists Brownie and Girl Scout groups in the
1950s in Texas.
Apparently the Brownies were invented around 1915 in England as a junior
branch to the Girl Guides, although one page says they were called the
Rosebuds at first. It doesn't say when, exactly, they switched to
"Brownies," but it implies it was early in their history.
It all gives less and less reason to believe that "brownie points" have
anything to do with the Girl Scouts. Sadly, it just seems to be a
conclusion that millions of people leaped to individually.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Aaron J. Dinkin
> On Thu, 30 Oct 2003, david56 wrote:
>
>> I thought it had something to do with the selling of cookie-like
>> comestibles from door to door (this doesn't happen in the UK). Those
>> who sold the most brownies got the most points. No?
>
> You consider brownies to be "cookie-like"?
Brownies are cookie-like. They're not cookies, of course, but they're
undeniably cookie-like. They're also cake-like.
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Skitt
> Murray Arnow wrote:
>> Reinhold (Rey) Aman wrote:
>>> And I salute annoying Brownies with *one* finger!
>>> But only if they are really, really, annoying.
>
>> I recently heard that particular finger called the "social finger."
>> Is this usage new or has my life been too sheltered?
>
> It's new to me, too, Murray. Kinda stupid, if you ask me.
I'm surprised. I've known and used that term for a very long time.
Socially, of course.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/
R F
I'll grant you that brownies are quite cake-like. But I don't see how
brownies are any more cookie-like than cake is cookie-like, or cookies are
cake-like.
Sure, brownies are more like cookies than they are like, say, a corned
beef sandwich.
R F
On Sat, 1 Nov 2003, Donna Richoux wrote:
> For once, RHHDAS has entries earlier than ProQuest, then. One is from a
> list of US Army jargon from 1944-1953, not defined. The second is marked
> "College Vocab.", 1958, defined as "apple-polishing." The third is dated
> 1962 as general American slang.
>
> I suppose the Washington Post columnist remark about "innate
> ineligibility" means that he does know it is an association for little
> girls. I checked the history at various Girl Scout sites and found that
> the national US organization did not offer Brownies until -- the same
> year, 1963. But some parts of the US did have Brownies locally before
> then, such as a page that lists Brownie and Girl Scout groups in the
> 1950s in Texas.
>
> Apparently the Brownies were invented around 1915 in England as a junior
> branch to the Girl Guides, although one page says they were called the
> Rosebuds at first. It doesn't say when, exactly, they switched to
> "Brownies," but it implies it was early in their history.
>
> It all gives less and less reason to believe that "brownie points" have
> anything to do with the Girl Scouts. Sadly, it just seems to be a
> conclusion that millions of people leaped to individually.
Ah, but *why* did they leap to that conclusion?
Aaron J. Dinkin
> On Sat, 1 Nov 2003, Aaron J. Dinkin wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:38:56 -0500, R F <rfon...@alumni.wesleyan.edu> wrote:
>>
>> > On Thu, 30 Oct 2003, david56 wrote:
>> >
>> >> I thought it had something to do with the selling of cookie-like
>> >> comestibles from door to door (this doesn't happen in the UK). Those
>> >> who sold the most brownies got the most points. No?
>> >
>> > You consider brownies to be "cookie-like"?
>>
>> Brownies are cookie-like. They're not cookies, of course, but they're
>> undeniably cookie-like. They're also cake-like.
>
> I'll grant you that brownies are quite cake-like. But I don't see how
> brownies are any more cookie-like than cake is cookie-like, or cookies are
> cake-like.
A brownie more readily fulfills the function of a cookie (e.g., to be
eaten in midafternoon with a glass of milk) than that of a cake (e.g., to
be presented with candles on someone's birthday), or even that of a slice
of cake. The texture of a brownie is more similar to that of a soft cookie
than to that of a piece of cake (though I may be saying that only because
if it's more similar to the texture of cake I'm more likely to call it
cake, rather than a brownie). Brownies connotatively have more
independent existence than cake pieces; a cake is usually only divided into
slices immediately before serving, while brownies are usually separated
in advance, so they are presented in the same manner as cookies.
Dena Jo
> A brownie more readily fulfills the function of a cookie (e.g., to
> be eaten in midafternoon with a glass of milk) than that of a cake
> (e.g., to be presented with candles on someone's birthday)
Not to mention that while one might have, in one's wayward youth,
concocted magic cookies à la magic brownies, one would never have baked
a magic cake.
--
Dena Jo
Wayward adult
Sara Moffat Lorimer
> While frolicking around in alt.usage.english, Sara Moffat Lorimer of .
> said:
>
> >What? I've mentioned living in Denmark before. Oh...
> >
> >I'd bought the wrong uniform -- the difference was all in the kerchief
> >clasp -- and according to the scout leader, that made me a boy scout.
>
> I've been a green scout and a blue scout, but have never heard of any
> difference in girl's and boy's uniforms.
This was in the... um... well, I'd call it something that sounds like
"spider core," but I don't remember how to spell (or accurately
pronounce) that in Danish. Our shirts were blue.
--
SML
MEow
said:
>This was in the... um... well, I'd call it something that sounds like
>"spider core," but I don't remember how to spell (or accurately
>pronounce) that in Danish. Our shirts were blue.
"Spider" would be spelled "spejder" and pronounced the same way "core"
might be the old word "kår" which would make sense in the connection.
The scouts wearing blue uniforms would be FDF/FPF (Volunteer Boy's
Organisation/ V... Girl's O...), I believe. When I was with the blue
scouts, I was so young I was in the mixed group called FDFFPF, so that
might be the reason why I've never heard of the difference in girl's
and boy's uniforms.
david56
> MEow wrote:
>
> > While frolicking around in alt.usage.english, Sara Moffat Lorimer of .
> > said:
> >
> > >What? I've mentioned living in Denmark before. Oh...
> > >
> > >I'd bought the wrong uniform -- the difference was all in the kerchief
> > >clasp -- and according to the scout leader, that made me a boy scout.
> >
> > I've been a green scout and a blue scout, but have never heard of any
> > difference in girl's and boy's uniforms.
>
> This was in the... um... well, I'd call it something that sounds like
> "spider core," but I don't remember how to spell (or accurately
> pronounce) that in Danish. Our shirts were blue.
Core? Would that be corps?
--
David
=====
Sara Moffat Lorimer
> sl560_del...@columbia.edu spake thus:
> > This was in the... um... well, I'd call it something that sounds like
> > "spider core," but I don't remember how to spell (or accurately
> > pronounce) that in Danish. Our shirts were blue.
>
> Core? Would that be corps?
No, that's how I remember the Danish word sounding -- unless "corps" is
Danish, too.
How did NYC treat you, by the way?
Brian Wickham
wrote:
>Apparently the Brownies were invented around 1915 in England as a junior
>branch to the Girl Guides, although one page says they were called the
>Rosebuds at first. It doesn't say when, exactly, they switched to
>"Brownies," but it implies it was early in their history.
>
>It all gives less and less reason to believe that "brownie points" have
>anything to do with the Girl Scouts. Sadly, it just seems to be a
>conclusion that millions of people leaped to individually.
Very much like the current American folk belief that mythical trolls
live under bridges.
Brian Wickham
Donna Richoux
Seems obvious enough to me. Brownies and their sort were supposed to be
helpful. They and their fellow organizations were known to have various
reward systems like merit badges. Therefore if one was told that there
were these things called "Brownie points" earned by doing good deeds,
one assumed they came from a point system in the Brownie organization.
No big mystery. It just may not be true, that's all.
What else are you thinking of?
--
Best - Donna Richoux
Brian Wickham
wrote:
>
That's easy! It's because "Brownie Points" went into wide circulation
and "brown nose" didn't. The former is quite inoffensive and can be
used by anyone in polite society. A whole generation of people who
are not familiar with scatological slang (there are millions of them
out there) know the phrase "Brownie Points" and have also heard of the
Brownies. Other than moist chocolate cakes, what else could they
associate "Brownie Points" with?
When I was in the Army I was dumbfounded by the lack of knowledge of
slang shown by some (not all) country boys, or sons of hyper-religious
families. As they picked it up they couldn't always tell which words
were obscene and which ones weren't. Today we don't have a draft Army
so that experience has been denied to the generations since 1974. Now
I think they spread slang through music lyrics where free association
of words and phrases is the norm.
Brian Wickham
Dr Robin Bignall
<TPUBGTH.don't.use.this...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 31 Oct 2003, R F posted thus:
>
>> Is that still the case?
>
>Goodness, I hope not.
>
>> Seems rather archaic
>
>Well, my experience with the Scouts dates from the mid '60s. To put
>that in perspective for you, in Los Angeles girls weren't allowed to
>wear pants to school until 1970.
>
>> but then so does the very idea of scouting.
>
>Not too long ago, I was boinking with members of my screenwriting
>newsgroup. Every man at boink, which is to say, everyone there except
>me, had been a Boy Scout, and they all had wonderful stories to tell
>about Jamborees, which apparently are some kind of major, competitive
>gathering of Scout troops from across the U.S. I would never in a
>million years have expected any one of those men to have been a Boy
>Scout.
>
Remember, scouting was invented by Baden-Powell, who wrote "Scouting for
Boys" early last century. In England, BTW. We also invented the jamboree
for scouts, but have no problems with the US borrowing the word and
activity from us! I joined the scouts in 1950, and our troop was so large,
and had such a big waiting list, that it was split into three sections
which met on consecutive nights. When we were on parade with our band, the
troop took several minutes to pass a given spot, and we were but one of
many troops in the city. I think that just about every boy of my generation
was a scout or cub at one time or another.
>I think Scouting could serve a really useful purpose even today, but in
>the areas where something like that would do the most good, something
>like that would never fly.
>
No. The idea is too simple for our sophisticated times.
>ObAUE: Did I need the comma after "which is to say"?
Not in my opinion.
--
wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall
Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England
Dr Robin Bignall
>While frolicking around in alt.usage.english, Sara Moffat Lorimer of .
>said:
>
>>I later was a boy scout in Denmark. In neither situation did we earn
>>points.
>
>Oh. I was a girl scout in Denmark and we got what probably answers to
>badges. It was small labels which you could sew on your shoulder
>(right shoulder IIRC) once you had earned it, by doing or showing that
>you've learned what was required to get the label. You could get one
>for having learned how to handle a knife safely and so you were
>allowed to use a knife, or one which showed that you had passed the
>test about different knots, so you could brag about having passed that
>test.
We wore them over the whole of both sleeves. Those scouts who made a hobby
of collecting so many badges that the sleeves did not have room to carry
them all without them overlapping were called "badge hogs".
Frances Kemmish
Boy Scouts of America still has more than 3 million youngsters as active
members.
My son was a scout. He went camping every month with his troop, and went
to a Boy Scout of America summer camp for several weeks every summer.
One summer he went to a National Jamboree in Virginia, along with about
8 busloads of local scouts, and a visiting troop of scouts from Japan.
At the summer camps, and the jamboree, there were scouts from every part
of the USA, and every kind of background. It still seems to be a
thriving organisation.
Fran
Tony Cooper
We did not attach the merit badge sew-ons to our uniforms. Those that
earned merit badges sewed them on a green felt (?) sash. I see they
still do ( http://www.mninter.net/~blkeagle/sash.htm ) but I can't
tell if it's still dark green. Of course, this is probably a
"boughten" sash. My mother made mine.
Don Aitken
<TPUBGTH.don't.use.this...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>To put
>that in perspective for you, in Los Angeles girls weren't allowed to
>wear pants to school until 1970.
>
Familiar though the US usage has become, there is no way that this
sentence can fail to raise lubricious imaginings in the mind of any
male Brit.
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being
read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com".
Dena Jo
>>To put
>>that in perspective for you, in Los Angeles girls weren't allowed to
>>wear pants to school until 1970.
>>
> Familiar though the US usage has become, there is no way that this
> sentence can fail to raise lubricious imaginings in the mind of any
> male Brit.
Do you say "pants" where we would say "panties"?
Tony Cooper
<TPUBGTH.don't.use.this...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 01 Nov 2003, Don Aitken posted thus:
>
>>>To put
>>>that in perspective for you, in Los Angeles girls weren't allowed to
>>>wear pants to school until 1970.
>>>
>> Familiar though the US usage has become, there is no way that this
>> sentence can fail to raise lubricious imaginings in the mind of any
>> male Brit.
>
>Do you say "pants" where we would say "panties"?
We? "Pants" is used about as often as "panties". Perhaps more, by
men referring to women's underthingies.
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
Don Aitken wrote:
> Dena Jo wrote:
> >To put that in perspective for you,
> >in Los Angeles girls weren't allowed
> >to wear pants to school until 1970.
> Familiar though the US usage has become, there is no way that this
> sentence can fail to raise lubricious imaginings in the mind of any
> male Brit.
Except for vulvaphobic British homos.
--
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
MEow
said:
>> > This was in the... um... well, I'd call it something that sounds like
>> > "spider core," but I don't remember how to spell (or accurately
>> > pronounce) that in Danish. Our shirts were blue.
>>
>> Core? Would that be corps?
>
>No, that's how I remember the Danish word sounding -- unless "corps" is
>Danish, too.
>
There is a Danish word sounding much like "corps", only it's spelled
"korps" and, to me, it makes a whole lot more sense to say "spejder
korps" than "spejder kår".
david56
> On 31 Oct 2003 23:13:41 GMT, Dena Jo
> <TPUBGTH.don't.use.this...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >To put
> >that in perspective for you, in Los Angeles girls weren't allowed to
> >wear pants to school until 1970.
> >
> Familiar though the US usage has become, there is no way that this
> sentence can fail to raise lubricious imaginings in the mind of any
> male Brit.
Although some of us had the good taste not to turn the discussion to
navy blue knickers, school staircases, and ... oops.
- Knock, knock.
- Who's there?
- Nicholas.
...
--
David
=====
david56
> david56 wrote:
>
> > sl560_del...@columbia.edu spake thus:
>
> > > This was in the... um... well, I'd call it something that sounds like
> > > "spider core," but I don't remember how to spell (or accurately
> > > pronounce) that in Danish. Our shirts were blue.
> >
> > Core? Would that be corps?
>
> No, that's how I remember the Danish word sounding -- unless "corps" is
> Danish, too.
I'm still not clear if we're connecting. "corps" in UK English is
pronounced "core".
> How did NYC treat you, by the way?
Fine thanks, although I sallied forth alone after my conference
finished. They kindly delivered me into Manhattan (instead of the
airport) by limo, and I had just under two days, sleeping in the
smallest hotel bedroom in the Western World. I have no complaints
about this - it was cheap and clean and I was paying with my own
money. And it still had a TV bigger than the one in my living room
at home.
I last ascended the Empire State Building in 1975, when I considered
the view to be the most astonishing I sight had ever seen, twice.
Once by day, and once by night. I hesitated, but decided to check my
19-year-old opinion, and I'm pleased to say I was right. Twenty-
eight years later, it's still the most astonishing sight I've ever
seen, twice. And I've seen a lot of sights now.
The other memorable item was a boat trip all the way around
Manhattan, which I hadn't done before. I had no idea of the size of
the Hudson River, and the different views were very instructive.
OTOH the military museum in the aircraft carrier was disappointing.
Times Square was heaving at all hours of the day and night. I
ordered a pastrami sandwich in Roxy's, which tasted delicious but was
enough to feed a small African nation for a day.
I didn't bother with the huge queue at the Ticket Unit; I would have
liked to have seen Urine Town, but they weren't selling tickets at
half price and there was another huge queue at the box office. But I
did get up early on Sunday to walk around Canal Street watching the
tourists buying tat from the street vendors. And I took the subway
to the airport which is far more interesting than a taxi as you get
to talk to other travellers.
--
David
=====
R F
On Sun, 2 Nov 2003, david56 wrote:
> The other memorable item was a boat trip all the way around
> Manhattan, which I hadn't done before. I had no idea of the size of
> the Hudson River,
Oy! ITYM the *North* River! ABL.
> Times Square was heaving at all hours of the day and night. I
> ordered a pastrami sandwich in Roxy's, which tasted delicious but was
> enough to feed a small African nation for a day.
Roxy's? That's that tourist ripoff place. How much did you pay for that
sandwich? Yoy!
(Heaving?)
david56
>
> On Sun, 2 Nov 2003, david56 wrote:
>
> > The other memorable item was a boat trip all the way around
> > Manhattan, which I hadn't done before. I had no idea of the size of
> > the Hudson River,
>
> Oy! ITYM the *North* River! ABL.
Nope, I meant the Hudson River. Why would that be wrong?
> > Times Square was heaving at all hours of the day and night. I
> > ordered a pastrami sandwich in Roxy's, which tasted delicious but was
> > enough to feed a small African nation for a day.
>
> Roxy's? That's that tourist ripoff place. How much did you pay for that
> sandwich? Yoy!
It's fair enough. I was a tourist and ready to be ripped off. I had
no native guide and I was peckish (although not so peckish that I
could finish the sandwich). I think it was $12, but I've never eaten
in Times Square before - last time I was there I was a student with
no money. Would you pay a little more than the locals to eat in a
restaurant in Leicester Square?
> (Heaving?)
Heaving is short for "heaving with people", I.e. very, very busy.
--
David
=====
Robert Lieblich
[re his visit to New York]
[ ... ]
> I last ascended the Empire State Building in 1975, when I considered
> the view to be the most astonishing I sight had ever seen, twice.
> Once by day, and once by night. I hesitated, but decided to check my
> 19-year-old opinion, and I'm pleased to say I was right. Twenty-
> eight years later, it's still the most astonishing sight I've ever
> seen, twice. And I've seen a lot of sights now.
The view from the top of the WTC was even more spectacular, with
downtown almost in your lap, the Empire State pretty much all alone
at the south end of midtown, then midtown with its towers; and, in
another direction, what seemed to be half of New Jersey; and in yet
another direction the Statue of Liberty and the harbor, much closer
than from the ESB. The view is, of course, an infinitesimal loss
compared to almost 2,800 deaths. But it is a loss.
> The other memorable item was a boat trip all the way around
> Manhattan, which I hadn't done before. I had no idea of the size of
> the Hudson River, and the different views were very instructive.
The sight of downtown from the harbor, even without the WTC towers,
is awesome.
> OTOH the military museum in the aircraft carrier was disappointing.
Did you get to visit the adjoining destroyer, the former USS EDSON
(DD-946)? I served aboard from 1961 to 1963. What's tied up in the
Hudson is quite differently configured from the ship I served in. I
haven't made it back yet, but I will eventually.
> Times Square was heaving at all hours of the day and night. I
> ordered a pastrami sandwich in Roxy's, which tasted delicious but was
> enough to feed a small African nation for a day.
If you don't take home half the meal in a bag, it wasn't a success.
(For New Jersey diners, the take-home figure is two-thirds.)
[ ... ]
> And I took the subway
> to the airport which is far more interesting than a taxi as you get
> to talk to other travellers.
Mrs. Bob and I tubed all over London during our two visits there.
We got into some lively conversations and overheard even more.
Washington Metro passengers tend to keep more to themselves.
Let us know when you plan to visit Washington.
--
Bob Lieblich
Closet New Yorker
Tony Cooper
wrote:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing the tourist thing when
you're a tourist. It's the experience, not the taste or the price.
Actually, I like the way you travel. You seem willing to reach out
and grab at experience.
Dr Robin Bignall
Glad to hear that, Fran. Since I returned to England in 1987 I cannot
recall any occasion where I've seen a scout or guide on the street. There
was a hut about a mile or so away from my flat in Chiswick (west London)
that had a sign "Nth Ealing Sea Scouts". We never saw any sign of activity
there, although we drove by it every week to get to the local Tesco. (The
nearest sea is at least a hundred miles away.) I just looked in the Yellow
Pages for my area and found no entry for 'scout' or 'boy scout'. I'm sure
the movement still exists, but it's no longer obvious.
Robert Bannister
You mean they dislike pussy more than American homos?
--
Rob Bannister
Sara Moffat Lorimer
> sl560_del...@columbia.edu spake thus:
>
> > david56 wrote:
> >
> > > sl560_del...@columbia.edu spake thus:
> >
> > > > This was in the... um... well, I'd call it something that sounds like
> > > > "spider core," but I don't remember how to spell (or accurately
> > > > pronounce) that in Danish. Our shirts were blue.
> > >
> > > Core? Would that be corps?
> >
> > No, that's how I remember the Danish word sounding -- unless "corps" is
> > Danish, too.
>
> I'm still not clear if we're connecting. "corps" in UK English is
> pronounced "core".
Same in US English. I was trying to phonetically spell a Danish word,
which is why I said it sounded like "spider core." Saying it sounded
like "spider corps" wouldn't've helped any.
david56
> david56 wrote:
>
> [re his visit to New York]
>
> [ ... ]
>
> > I last ascended the Empire State Building in 1975, when I considered
> > the view to be the most astonishing I sight had ever seen, twice.
> > Once by day, and once by night. I hesitated, but decided to check my
> > 19-year-old opinion, and I'm pleased to say I was right. Twenty-
> > eight years later, it's still the most astonishing sight I've ever
> > seen, twice. And I've seen a lot of sights now.
>
> The view from the top of the WTC was even more spectacular, with
> downtown almost in your lap, the Empire State pretty much all alone
> at the south end of midtown, then midtown with its towers; and, in
> another direction, what seemed to be half of New Jersey; and in yet
> another direction the Statue of Liberty and the harbor, much closer
> than from the ESB. The view is, of course, an infinitesimal loss
> compared to almost 2,800 deaths. But it is a loss.
Actually, I did see that view - I went up in 1976. But I am still
more impressed by the view from the ESB. I think it's having midtown
all around you.
> > The other memorable item was a boat trip all the way around
> > Manhattan, which I hadn't done before. I had no idea of the size of
> > the Hudson River, and the different views were very instructive.
>
> The sight of downtown from the harbor, even without the WTC towers,
> is awesome.
>
> > OTOH the military museum in the aircraft carrier was disappointing.
>
> Did you get to visit the adjoining destroyer, the former USS EDSON
> (DD-946)? I served aboard from 1961 to 1963. What's tied up in the
> Hudson is quite differently configured from the ship I served in. I
> haven't made it back yet, but I will eventually.
No, the Edson was closed for the day. I also skipped the submarine
as there was a one-hour queue and I've been in submarines before.
> > Times Square was heaving at all hours of the day and night. I
> > ordered a pastrami sandwich in Roxy's, which tasted delicious but was
> > enough to feed a small African nation for a day.
>
> If you don't take home half the meal in a bag, it wasn't a success.
> (For New Jersey diners, the take-home figure is two-thirds.)
>
> [ ... ]
>
> > And I took the subway
> > to the airport which is far more interesting than a taxi as you get
> > to talk to other travellers.
>
> Mrs. Bob and I tubed all over London during our two visits there.
> We got into some lively conversations and overheard even more.
> Washington Metro passengers tend to keep more to themselves.
>
> Let us know when you plan to visit Washington.
Sadly there's little likelihood of that at the moment as we have no
business interest there. Unless I make a personal trip. But I thank
you for the thought.
--
David
=====
david56
> david56 wrote:
>
> > sl560_del...@columbia.edu spake thus:
> >
> > > david56 wrote:
> > >
> > > > sl560_del...@columbia.edu spake thus:
> > >
> > > > > This was in the... um... well, I'd call it something that sounds like
> > > > > "spider core," but I don't remember how to spell (or accurately
> > > > > pronounce) that in Danish. Our shirts were blue.
> > > >
> > > > Core? Would that be corps?
> > >
> > > No, that's how I remember the Danish word sounding -- unless "corps" is
> > > Danish, too.
> >
> > I'm still not clear if we're connecting. "corps" in UK English is
> > pronounced "core".
>
> Same in US English. I was trying to phonetically spell a Danish word,
> which is why I said it sounded like "spider core." Saying it sounded
> like "spider corps" wouldn't've helped any.
Righty-ho. I was confused.
--
David
=====
Tony Cooper
>> > I last ascended the Empire State Building in 1975, when I
considered
>> > the view to be the most astonishing I sight had ever seen, twice.
>> > Once by day, and once by night. I hesitated, but decided to check my
>> > 19-year-old opinion, and I'm pleased to say I was right. Twenty-
>> > eight years later, it's still the most astonishing sight I've ever
>> > seen, twice. And I've seen a lot of sights now.
I have to choose the view from the helicopter taking off from the Pan
Am building as the most spectacular NYC view. You can look around and
down as the helicopter takes off backwards. Not much between your
feet and the concrete canyons below.
Arcadian Rises
<bass.c...@ntlworld.com> writes:
>
>Robert....@Verizon.net spake thus:
>
>> david56 wrote:
>>
>> [re his visit to New York]
>>
>> [ ... ]
>>
>> > I last ascended the Empire State Building in 1975, when I considered
>> > the view to be the most astonishing I sight had ever seen, twice.
>> > Once by day, and once by night. I hesitated, but decided to check my
>> > 19-year-old opinion, and I'm pleased to say I was right. Twenty-
>> > eight years later, it's still the most astonishing sight I've ever
>> > seen, twice. And I've seen a lot of sights now.
>>
You visited ESB recently?
My office is there, I think I bumped into you, but I'm not sure.
david56
I am explicitly forbidden from taking helicopter rides without Wife
to share the cost and the fun. It's bad enough my going on these
trips without her, but I have to stay within bounds when actually
enjoying myself. I have, so far, resisted the urge at Mount St
Helens, Las Vegas and in New York.
--
David
=====
david56
A week ago, Friday evening, about 17:00.
> My office is there, I think I bumped into you, but I'm not sure.
Oops. Sorry for being so clumsy.
--
David
=====