Peking/Beijing: What's with the selective imposition of authentically local foreign placenames on the English language?
The Silver-Flag Boy
is because there is a word in the English language for China's capital.
I refer similarly to 'Rome' not 'Roma', 'Brussels' not 'Bruxelles',
'Lisbon' not 'Lisboa'. I am not told when I do so that I am being
anti-Italian, anti-Belgian or anti-Portuguese."
Chris Patten, in his book "East and West"
He is probably in a minority these days. But Chris Patten (the last
British governor of Hong Kong) raises a valid point: we anglicise the
names of many, if not most, foreign capitals and many other major
foreign cities, so what's wrong with "Peking" as the English word for
China's capital? There has been for some time a move to replace it with
"Beijing" on the basis that this name is more authentically Chinese.
Which, for starters, surely means, if we are to be consistent, we
should replace "Hong Kong" with "Shong-gong" --- but I've not seen any
move in that direction. I've seen it written that "Peking" is a
"colonial relic" (did Britain ever colonise China?). But surely the
same must be true of all the other anglicised forms of foreign
place-names that we use without thinking about it.
Or, alternatively, there's no political significance in such
anglicisms, it's just the natural tendency for well-known place-names
to evolve a form in our language that fits in more neatly with our
language's phonology. The same happens in other languages: I don't feel
threatened because the French and Spanish call my country's capital
"Londres" instead of "London". Nor do I feel threatened by the fact
that Welsh-speakers call it "Llundain", or that they call Bristol
"Bryste" or Bath "Caerfaddon" or Shrewsbury "Amwythig". I don't think
that it's because the Welsh want to colonise England (mind you, I am
actually Welsh (but not Welsh-speaking)).
So why the insistence on "Beijing"? There are other examples too ---
the Turks want to call their capital "Ankara" fair enough but whatever
was wrong with Anglophones sticking with their word for it ("Angora")
--- in what way was that supposed to be different from saying "Warsaw"
instead of "Warszawa"? Am I missing something, or is it just a form of
political correctness?
--
Alex Macfie (The Silver-Flag Boy) al...@flagboy.demon.co.uk
--------------------------------------------------------------
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Steve MacGregor
The Silver-Flag Boy <walko...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> "I always refer to 'Peking', not 'Beijing'. This is not an insult. It
> is because there is a word in the English language for China's
> capital.
It's the older English form of the older Chinese name. The capital was
renamed some time ago, and "Beijing" is the newer English form of the
newer Chinese name.
--
How many USENET posts to a metric buttload?
Francisca de Alencar
Well, you said what I would have said.
We call the city "Pequim". The natural or inhabitant of Peking is
"pequinesa" (female) or "pequinês" (male).
Beijing is also used, but sparingly; almost never.
By the way, Beijing in Brazilian Portuguese is pronounced "beijin",
clipping the final "g". And "beinjin" sounds much like what?
Beijinho is little kiss; also the name of a Brazilian sweat coconut
delicacy. Something like a small ball of coconut and condensed milk,
sprinkled all over with raw sugar and a clove immersed on the top. Mmm,
so yummy.
Of course you wouldn't eat the clove; it's there only to make the
delicacy more fragrant.
Beijinhos, please!
London is Londres; Wales, País de Gales, Roma, the same; Brussels,
Bruxelas; Warsaw, Varsóvia; England, Inglaterra; Ankara, Ancara; Angora
is a breed of cat.
As you see, every language for itself!
Arcadian Rises
>The Silver-Flag Boy wrote:
>
>> I refer similarly to 'Rome' not 'Roma', 'Brussels' not 'Bruxelles',
>> 'Lisbon' not 'Lisboa'.
...but 'Buenos Aires', not 'Good Aires'...
P&D Schultz
> It's the older English form of the older Chinese name. The capital was
> renamed some time ago, and "Beijing" is the newer English form of the
> newer Chinese name.
Wrong. "Peking" is the traditional English form of the current name.
When Peking came into use in English, the Chinese name for the city was
exactly the same as it is now. The name was later changed, and then
changed back again. But all that happened after the English name Peking
had already been established.
Also wrong: Beijing is not the "English" form of anything. It is China's
official Latin alphabet spelling of the name of its capital, used in all
publications originating in that country that are written in the Latin
alphabet, whether in Polish, Tagalog, Maltese, or English.
English speakers are not required to take lessons in English orthography
from governments of non-English-speaking countries.
\\P. Schultz
Spehro Pefhany
> foreign cities, so what's wrong with "Peking" as the English word for
> China's capital? There has been for some time a move to replace it with
> "Beijing" on the basis that this name is more authentically Chinese.
It also matches the Pinyin romanization in use in China. If you pick up a
map with Pinyin on it the names will match. Unfortunately they usually
leave the tone markers off so you can't reliably pronouce the word
without prior knowledge. In contrast, in Taiwan there
seem to be at least two romanizations in use, so the street signs often
don't match the maps exactly.
> Which, for starters, surely means, if we are to be consistent, we
> should replace "Hong Kong" with "Shong-gong" ---
Surely you mean "Xianggang S.A.R." ? At least that is what the
mainlanders call it, from the Mandarin. I don't believe there is a
standard romanization for the Cantonese dialect as used in HK, but
Shong-gong sounds like it would be close.
> move in that direction. I've seen it written that "Peking" is a
> "colonial relic" (did Britain ever colonise China?).
They are a bit sensitive about the Opium war yet (ca. 1832). See, for
example, the Treaty of Nanking (Nanjing). There were other things too.
> So why the insistence on "Beijing"?
I don't know the history behind the change, I think it occurred in the
early 1970s as China was opening to the West. Before their revolution in
1949, I think, it was called Peiping, but that may have been an actual
change in the Chinese characters.
I too would be interested in what thought or arm-twisting was behind
changing all the names on "our" maps.
Best regards,
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Contributions invited->The AVR-gcc FAQ is at: http://www.BlueCollarLinux.com
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Schainbaum, Robert
I hope no one's fooled around with Bangkok!
Franke
Spehro Pefhany wrote:
> The renowned The Silver-Flag Boy <walko...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > foreign cities, so what's wrong with "Peking" as the English word for
> > China's capital? There has been for some time a move to replace it with
> > "Beijing" on the basis that this name is more authentically Chinese.
>
> It also matches the Pinyin romanization in use in China. If you pick up a
> map with Pinyin on it the names will match. Unfortunately they usually
> leave the tone markers off so you can't reliably pronouce the word
> without prior knowledge. In contrast, in Taiwan there
> seem to be at least two romanizations in use, so the street signs often
> don't match the maps exactly.
There are 4 or 5 systems, but the government has decided this year to use its own
invention, TongYong PinYin, so that foreigners can read all the street signs. I
doubt that they will change for another 20-30 years, though.
Earle Jones
wrote:
> Spehro Pefhany wrote:
>
> > The renowned The Silver-Flag Boy <walko...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >
> > > foreign cities, so what's wrong with "Peking" as the English word for
> > > China's capital? There has been for some time a move to replace it
> > > with
> > > "Beijing" on the basis that this name is more authentically Chinese.
*
I had Peking duck at the "Peking Duck" restaurant in Beijing.
earle
*
Charles Riggs
<Robert.S...@Berlin.DE> wrote:
<snip>
>I hope no one's fooled around with Bangkok!
Learn to snip, fool. A 76 line attribution followed by a one-line
response is ridiculous.
Charles Riggs
Schainbaum, Robert
Learn to put me in your killfile. I don't care whether you read me or
not and I don't care that it costs you line charges to pull down my
messages. You must live a very frugal and straightened existence. May
I make a suggestion? No? Well, I'll suggest anyway. Get rid of your
computer and learn to live on dogfood.
mpl...@my-deja.com
P&D Schultz <schu...@erols.com> wrote:
[snip]
>
> English speakers are not required to take lessons in English
orthography
> from governments of non-English-speaking countries.
>
> \\P. Schultz
>
This is true. However, what's to stop the Chinese government from
imitating how the Turks handled the Constantinople/Istanbul problem?
Annoyed that the West persisted in calling the city "Constantinople"
long after the inhabitants themselves renamed it Istanbul, the Turkish
postal authorities simply turned back mail addressed
to "Constantinople."
The Chinese could certainly do the same. It does not guarantee that
Westerners would quit referring to Beijing as "Peking," but the example
of Istanbul suggests that they might.
--
Raymond S. Wise
"The biochemistry of the world is straight out of a Bill Gates
fantasy--there's only one operating system for everything."
Joel Achenbach
Carmen L. Abruzzi
----------
In article <8tj8a4$ubj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, mpl...@my-deja.com
wrote:
>In article <39FCCD9C...@erols.com>,
> P&D Schultz <schu...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>
>[snip]
>
>
>>
>> English speakers are not required to take lessons in English
>orthography
>> from governments of non-English-speaking countries.
>>
>> \\P. Schultz
>>
>
>
>This is true. However, what's to stop the Chinese government from
>imitating how the Turks handled the Constantinople/Istanbul problem?
>Annoyed that the West persisted in calling the city "Constantinople"
>long after the inhabitants themselves renamed it Istanbul, the Turkish
>postal authorities simply turned back mail addressed
>to "Constantinople."
>
>The Chinese could certainly do the same. It does not guarantee that
>Westerners would quit referring to Beijing as "Peking," but the example
>of Istanbul suggests that they might.
>
I rather like knowing what the names are in the native tongue.
Though the PRC is insisting on Mandarin Pinyin for reasons other
than satisfying my curiosity. Xizàng? I prefer Pö.
Matti Lamprhey
> Charles Riggs wrote:
> > "Schainbaum, Robert" <Robert.S...@Berlin.DE> wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> > >I hope no one's fooled around with Bangkok!
> >
> > Learn to snip, fool. A 76 line attribution followed by a one-line
> > response is ridiculous.
>
> Learn to put me in your killfile. I don't care whether you read me or
> not and I don't care that it costs you line charges to pull down my
> messages. You must live a very frugal and straightened existence. May
> I make a suggestion? No? Well, I'll suggest anyway. Get rid of your
> computer and learn to live on dogfood.
I observe that there are two Robert Schainbaums. RS1 is widely
knowledgeable and insightful, able to use wit as a weapon. RS2 came on the
scene more recently, and can be spotted by his half-baked one-liners and
ready rudeness -- when challenged he responds with pathetic diversions.
Can we have the first one back, please?
Matti
Schainbaum, Robert
Sorry, Matti, I'm not a schizophrenic. One personality. Sorry if I offended
your friend Mr. Riggs. He irritates me.
/r
The Silver-Flag Boy
"Schainbaum, Robert" <Robert.S...@Berlin.DE> wrote:
>
> I hope no one's fooled around with Bangkok!
>
What about Wankie, Zimbabwe. In the local language, it's Hwange. This
is especially unfortunate for the British, for whom "wank" is *very*
rude slang for "masturbate". But Zimbabwe's English-language press does
refer to the place as "Wankie".
The Silver-Flag Boy
False analogy. We don't directly translate major place-names, just
render them easier to say. Yes we write "Buenos Aires" but we don't
pronounce it exactly as Spanish-speakers do.
The Silver-Flag Boy
"Spehro Pefhany" <sp...@interlog.com> wrote:
> The renowned The Silver-Flag Boy <walko...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > Which, for starters, surely means, if we are to be consistent, we
> > should replace "Hong Kong" with "Shong-gong" ---
>
> Surely you mean "Xianggang S.A.R." ?
friend told me was the Chinese name for the place. Bit sloppy really
<slaps self on hand>
The Silver-Flag Boy
> long after the inhabitants themselves renamed it Istanbul, the Turkish
> postal authorities simply turned back mail addressed
> to "Constantinople."
>
Maybe the British should have done the same with mail addressed to the
Turkish word for "London". Actually when addressing a letter, I prefer
to use local-language names, because they're going to be more easily
understood by the posties there, but would otherwise refer to a place
using the English name if one exists. It's kinda like when one
addresses a letter to someone in Germany "Herr G. Schroeder" but starts
the letter itself (because it's in English) "Dear Mr Schroeder".
Weren't the locals calling it "Istanbul" anyway long before it
was "officially" renamed? That's suggested by the fact that Anglophone
traders there referred to it as "Stamboul" in the mid 19th Century.
--
Alex Macfie (The Silver-Flag Boy) al...@flagboy.demon.co.uk
--------------------------------------------------------------
The Silver-Flag Boy
Usually... we do say "Mexico City".
mart...@my-deja.com
> is because there is a word in the English language for China's
capital.
>
> So why the insistence on "Beijing"? There are other examples too ---
> the Turks want to call their capital "Ankara" fair enough but whatever
> was wrong with Anglophones sticking with their word for it ("Angora")
> --- in what way was that supposed to be different from saying "Warsaw"
> instead of "Warszawa"? Am I missing something, or is it just a form of
> political correctness?
>
is not isolated, but part of a total shift of Latin-letter spellings of
Chinese language initiated by the communists in China after 1949.
The original British system of transliteration is an odd one. It uses
an apostrophe to differentiate certain sounds, but--oddly--the
apostrophe doesn't change the sound of the Latin letter from the way it
is pronounced in the West. Instead, it keeps it the same. For
example, T' is pronounced as a T, but a T without an apostrophe is
pronounced as a D. Thus, "Tao" is pronounced "Dow." So reading this
system puts you in the position of pronouncing an apostrophe only when
it ISN'T there.
There is a similar apostrophe used with B's to differentiate between
the B sound and the P sound. Also with K's for the K and G sounds.
Thus, when one writes "Peking" in the old system, it was intended to be
pronounced more like "Beijing." The system, however, tended to be
misused, and eventually Peking became pronounced the way it is spelled.
After the takeover in 1949, the Chinese communists creatd their own
system with the help of their fellow communists in Russia. Too bad
they didn't invite representatives of a country that actually uses
Latin letters, becasue the new system is very odd also, in a completely
different way. It is called Pinyang, and gives us such confusing-
looking combiantions as "Xiao," in which letters are used in ways they
are not normally used in Latin alphabets. Nevertheless, when detente
pulled the US and China closer, the US government began using this
system. It has filtered down to the non-beaurocratic population enough
so that "Bejing" has largely replaced Peking in written English.
The Great Grammarian
Schainbaum, Robert
I realize that I can't separate the two sides of my personality. I can be
nasty as well as all the other good qualities you refer to as belonging to
RS2. Though we've rarely ever exchanged posts before, I consider that you
speak for the best and most respectable elements of the NG. I will accordingly
withdraw myself from the NG.
Byeeee,
R. Schainbaum
Matti Lamprhey
> Matti Lamprhey wrote:
> >
> > I observe that there are two Robert Schainbaums. RS1 is widely
> > knowledgeable and insightful, able to use wit as a weapon. RS2 came on
the
> > scene more recently, and can be spotted by his half-baked one-liners and
> > ready rudeness -- when challenged he responds with pathetic diversions.
> >
> > Can we have the first one back, please?
>
> I realize that I can't separate the two sides of my personality. I can be
> nasty as well as all the other good qualities you refer to as belonging to
> RS2. Though we've rarely ever exchanged posts before, I consider that you
> speak for the best and most respectable elements of the NG. I will
accordingly
> withdraw myself from the NG.
>
> Byeeee,
>
> R. Schainbaum
My first reaction is sorrow and guilt.
My second is that you were perhaps looking for an excuse to take that step.
Then I feel even more guilty for thinking that.
I hope you'll stay, RS1&2.
Matti
Armond Perretta
>
> ... I don't care whether you read me or not and I don't care
> that it costs you line charges to pull down my messages
... which reminds me that we are now taking nominations for DSH's
understudy.
--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.tripod.com
hed...@my-deja.com
"Matti Lamprhey" <ma...@polka.bikini> wrote:
[...]
>
> My first reaction is sorrow and guilt.
> My second is that you were perhaps looking for an excuse to take that
step.
> Then I feel even more guilty for thinking that.
> I hope you'll stay, RS1&2.
>
> Matti
>
>
At least until he informs us of how it is possible to steal culture and
which game of the World Series was disrupted by terroristas.
Harold
Donna Richoux
> In article <8tj8a4$ubj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> mpl...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Annoyed that the West persisted in calling the city "Constantinople"
> > long after the inhabitants themselves renamed it Istanbul, the Turkish
> > postal authorities simply turned back mail addressed
> > to "Constantinople."
[snip]
>
> Weren't the locals calling it "Istanbul" anyway long before it
> was "officially" renamed? That's suggested by the fact that Anglophone
> traders there referred to it as "Stamboul" in the mid 19th Century.
Well, yeah, the World Book Encyclopedia says 1453 was when the Ottoman
Turks conquered the city and called it Istanbul. They stayed in power
until World War I. So it sounds simpler than what you suggest -- the
Turkish officials called it "Istanbul" for centuries; the local people
surely did likewise except perhaps for linguistic minorities.
What puzzles me is what you mean by an official renaming. When it was
that the various European kingdoms/governments decided to stop saying
"Constantinople" (or variations thereof) for official purposes, would
vary, I'm sure. Just as when it was that mapmakers switched would vary,
and when writers and scholars switched, and when merchant-traders
switched, and when ordinary people switched. That's the thing about
placenames, there's no magic way to change them everywhere, and to make
the change stick.
Or proper names, period. Has everyone experienced a friend or relative
changing their name, or nickname, for whatever reason, and trying to get
everyone else to go along with it? It tells you something about the
power of names.
Oh, anyone interested in the way placenames vary both by language and
era will be intrigued by the Getty Thesaurus of Geographic Names:
http://shiva.pub.getty.edu/tgn_browser/
It doesn't discuss etymology (does anywhere on the Web?) but it does
give a wide range of actual citations.
--
Best --- Donna Richoux
mpl...@my-deja.com
tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote:
[snip]
>
> Oh, anyone interested in the way placenames vary both by language and
> era will be intrigued by the Getty Thesaurus of Geographic Names:
> http://shiva.pub.getty.edu/tgn_browser/
>
> It doesn't discuss etymology (does anywhere on the Web?) but it does
> give a wide range of actual citations.
> --
> Best --- Donna Richoux
>
Is there such a thing as an etymological gazetteer? I searched through
various sources at a public library for the origin of the name of
Nancy, France, without success.
I'm guessing that this _Nancy_ has nothing whatsoever to do with the
names _Anne,_ _Anna,_ or _Hannah._
--
Raymond S. Wise
"The biochemistry of the world is straight out of a Bill Gates
fantasy--there's only one operating system for everything."
Joel Achenbach
Robert Lieblich
>
> In article <8tjpb2$b77$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> The Silver-Flag Boy <walko...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > False analogy. We don't directly translate major place-names,
>
> Usually... we do say "Mexico City".
We (Americans, at least) also frequently say "New York City" and
"Washington State."
As E.B. White once put it, "Clarity, clarity, clarity."
Robert Lieblich
He does what he wants, Matti. I think this is the third time he's come
along, roiled the waters of AUE, then left. He obviously gets some sort
of reinforcement out of such conduct. I have no idea what it is.
As for his attempt to hang his departure around your neck, pay no
attention. He made an offer to P. Schultz (I think it was) and me a
couple of weeks ago: if each of us sent him an e-mail telling him to
leave AUE, he would do so, no questions asked. A couple of days later
he made the same offer to someone else, just that one person -- tell him
by e-mail to leave and he would. None of us took him up on it. He's
asked me on other occasions to offer him a guide to behavior. I keep
telling him that I'm not responsible for him -- he's responsible for
himself.
So you are not responsible for RS -- any edition -- what he says or what
he does. RS is responsible for himself. It appears that he's departed
the friendly confines of AUE until whatever need impels him to do what
he does sends him back here for more. I can wait.
mpl...@my-deja.com
mart...@my-deja.com wrote:
[snip]
>
> After the takeover in 1949, the Chinese communists creatd their own
> system with the help of their fellow communists in Russia. Too bad
> they didn't invite representatives of a country that actually uses
> Latin letters, becasue the new system is very odd also, in a
completely
> different way. It is called Pinyang, and gives us such confusing-
> looking combiantions as "Xiao," in which letters are used in ways they
> are not normally used in Latin alphabets. Nevertheless, when detente
> pulled the US and China closer, the US government began using this
> system. It has filtered down to the non-beaurocratic population
enough
> so that "Bejing" has largely replaced Peking in written English.
>
When developing a writing system, the question is how can one best
serve the needs of the people who are going to use the system?
In Laos in the 1950s, three Westerners created the Romanized Popular
Alphabet (R.P.A.) for use by the Hmong. In R.P.A., tones are indicated
by Roman "consonants." The following is adapted from
http://members.citynet.net/brianm/thesis/thesis.htm
Ending letter Tone
-b high level tone
-[] high mid level tone
-s low mid level tone
-m low level tone punctuated by a glottal stop
-j high falling tone
-g high or mid falling breathy tone
-v mid rising tone
-d low rising tone
In the above, "-[]" indicates that the high mid level tone is
represented by absence of a letter marking the tone.
Thus, if one were to remove the tone markers from the Hmong word
_Asmeslivkas_ ("America"), it would read _Amelika._
For brief biographies of the creators of R.P.A. go to
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Towers/6227/rpahist.html
It should also be noted that to post in Usenet forums Esperantists can
choose between h-writing or x-writing.
Thus, to represent
[S-with-circumflex]i havas na[u-with-macron] [j-with-circumflex]
urnalojn. "She has nine newspapers."
one can write either of the following:
Shi havas nau jhurnalojn. (The macron over the u is not represented.)
Sxi havas naux jxurnalojn.
--
Raymond S. Wise
"The biochemistry of the world is straight out of a Bill Gates
fantasy--there's only one operating system for everything."
Joel Achenbach
Francisca de Alencar
> In article <8tjpb2$b77$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> The Silver-Flag Boy <walko...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > False analogy. We don't directly translate major place-names,
>
> Usually... we do say "Mexico City".
Perfect. It's so in Spanish as well: Ciudad de México (with an "é" in
the original). In Portuguese would be Cidade do México (but pronounced
quite differently). That's because in Mexico there are three (yes,
three) Mexicos. The country, the state, and the city. How could you tell
the city from the others, except by saying Mexico City?
Surely a Mexican, not a Brazilian like me, could tell you more properly
about her lovely country.
Regards.
Postscript:
1. Isn't it funny that not even once in the thread it was mentioned the
name "Peiping", Peking's former name. What would be the English
translation for Peiping, Peking, and Beijing? Why so much variation?
2. I didn't ever taste the "Peking duck", did you? How is it like? With
the word the gourmets.
Andy Averill
"Francisca de Alencar" <ale...@beijinhos.com.br> wrote in message
news:39FE0583...@beijinhos.com.br...
> The Silver-Flag Boy wrote:
>
> > In article <8tjpb2$b77$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > The Silver-Flag Boy <walko...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > > False analogy. We don't directly translate major place-names,
> >
> > Usually... we do say "Mexico City".
> > Alex Macfie (The Silver-Flag Boy) al...@flagboy.demon.co.uk
>
> Perfect. It's so in Spanish as well: Ciudad de México (with an "é" in
> the original). In Portuguese would be Cidade do México (but pronounced
> quite differently). That's because in Mexico there are three (yes,
> three) Mexicos. The country, the state, and the city. How could you tell
> the city from the others, except by saying Mexico City?
Unfortunately, Mexico City is not in the state of Mexico, it's in the
Distrito Federal. Otherwise you could say Mexico, Mexico, Mexico (it's a
helluva town).
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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P&D Schultz
>
> In article <39FCCD9C...@erols.com>,
> P&D Schultz <schu...@erols.com> wrote:
> [snip]
> > English speakers are not required to take lessons in English
> orthography
> > from governments of non-English-speaking countries.
> This is true. However, what's to stop the Chinese government from
> imitating how the Turks handled the Constantinople/Istanbul problem? <...>
That involved a change of name. The name of the Chinese city has not
changed. That's the point.
\\P. Schultz
P&D Schultz
>
> "Francisca de Alencar" <ale...@beijinhos.com.br> wrote in message
> news:39FE0583...@beijinhos.com.br...
> > the original). <...>
>
> Unfortunately, Mexico City is not in the state of Mexico, it's in the
Right. I have never seen the city referred to in the Spanish press as
anything except "México, DF." They never say "Ciudad de México."
\\P. Schultz
Earle Jones
<ma...@polka.bikini> wrote:
*
That's exactly the *wrong* answer.
Schainbaum has of late been nothing more than a quick-trigger brash
non-think lash-out asshole.
Let him go.
earle
*
mpl...@my-deja.com
And my point is that the same method used by the Turks could be used by
the Chinese.
Think about it. What corporation or government agency would want its
spell-checkers to include _two_ spellings of Beijing--one "Beijing,"
for addressing envelopes to the city and the other, "Peking," for
writing about the city in the office's internal papers? Not only would
that be unesthetic, it goes against the corporate and government
practice of having standards and adhering to them.
In fact, the Chinese government might remain sufficiently powerful to
insist that private contracts between Western companies and Chinese
companies must use the spelling "Beijing." That would put even more
pressure on the West to conform.
mpl...@my-deja.com
[snip]
>
> Oh, anyone interested in the way placenames vary both by language and
> era will be intrigued by the Getty Thesaurus of Geographic Names:
> http://shiva.pub.getty.edu/tgn_browser/
>
[snip]
There is a page called http://www.placesnamed.com which concerns itself
not only with geographic sites in the USA but also with first and last
names. If you do a search for "Paul", for example, you learn:
[quote]
Paul
Paul is the 1,794th most popular female first name in the United
States; frequency is 0.003%; percentile is 85.880 [SourceCBN]
Paul is the 13th most popular male first name in the United States;
frequency is 0.948%; percentile is 26.142 [SourceCBN]
Paul is the 408th most popular last name (surname) in the United
States; frequency is 0.027%; percentile is 32.869 [SourceCBN]
Paul, Alabama, United States [Place] is in Conecuh County; location is
31°19'12"N 86°44'38"W; elevation is 214 feet [SourceGSP]
Paul, Alabama, United States Postal Service Zip Code is 36469
[SourcePSZ]
Paul, Idaho, United States [City]; population was 901 in 1990; housing
units was 361 in 1990; location is 42°36'N 113°47'W; land area is 0.32
square miles (204 acres); FIPS code is 61210 [SourceCBP]
Paul, Idaho, United States [Populated Place] is in Minidoka County;
location is 42°36'29"N 113°46'57"W [SourceGSP]
Paul, Idaho, United States Postal Service Zip Code is 83347 [SourcePSZ]
Paul, Nebraska, United States [Place] is in Otoe County; location is 40°
35'43"N 95°53'47"W [SourceGSP]
[end quote]
A search for "Isis" turns up only:
[quote]
Isis is the 2,828th most popular female first name in the United
States; frequency is 0.002%; percentile is 88.242 [SourceCBN]
[end quote]
While a search for "Osiris" turns up only:
[quote]
Osiris, Utah, United States [Place] is in Garfield County; location is
38°1'20"N 111°57'39"W [SourceGSP]
[end quote]
--
Raymond S. Wise
"The biochemistry of the world is straight out of a Bill Gates
fantasy--there's only one operating system for everything."
Joel Achenbach
P&D Schultz
>
> In article <39FE3AD5...@erols.com>,
> P&D Schultz <schu...@erols.com> wrote:
> > mpl...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <39FCCD9C...@erols.com>,
> > > P&D Schultz <schu...@erols.com> wrote:
> > > [snip]
> > > > English speakers are not required to take lessons in English
> > > orthography
> > > > from governments of non-English-speaking countries.
> >
> > > This is true. However, what's to stop the Chinese government from
> > > imitating how the Turks handled the Constantinople/Istanbul
> problem? <...>
> >
> > That involved a change of name. The name of the Chinese city has not
> > changed. That's the point.
>
> the Chinese.
>
> Think about it. What corporation or government agency would want its
> spell-checkers to include _two_ spellings of Beijing--one "Beijing,"
> for addressing envelopes to the city and the other, "Peking," for
First, others have already shown that there are commercial enterprises
in Beijing that have "Peking" in their names and addresses, so the
spell-checker wouldn't work.
Second, you are presuming that the Chinese care. I don't think they do.
I think we just misunderstood what China did.
China, like every country, has to deal with a world that is awash in the
Latin alphabet, and they got tired of having dozens of different
systems, or no system, for interfacing their language with that
alphabet, so they nailed down one single system as the official one. But
that was their decision, for their use. I really don't think they give a
crap what the Albanians or the Argentinians or the English call their
capital.
I think what happened was that the English-speaking world (which seems,
strangely, to be especially susceptible to jumping to the mistaken
conviction that they might be hurting someone's feelings) misunderstood
what the Chinese were doing, believed that some sort of name-change had
occurred (it hadn't), thought that China was issuing instructions to the
world, and fell all over themselves to obey these nonexistent
instructions, writing the name of the Chinese capital the way that the
Chinese do on the comparatively rare occasions when they use the Latin
alphabet to write it, and replacing the perfectly ok way it has been
written and said in English for several centuries at least.
In any case, neither spelling is very close to the actual name (the
tones are not indicated, so salient phonemes are missing -- rather like
spelling Washington as Wshngtn). Also, ironically, American news readers
(and maybe others, I don't know) then mispronounce it even further,
routinely articulating the final syllable as "zhing" instead of "jing".
Apparently, "Beijing" looks like French to them for some reason.
\\P. Schultz
Jens Brix Christiansen
>
> And my point is that the same method used by the Turks could be used by
> the Chinese.
>
> Think about it. What corporation or government agency would want its
> spell-checkers to include _two_ spellings of Beijing--one "Beijing,"
> for addressing envelopes to the city and the other, "Peking," for
> writing about the city in the office's internal papers? Not only would
> that be unesthetic, it goes against the corporate and government
> practice of having standards and adhering to them.
>
> In fact, the Chinese government might remain sufficiently powerful to
> insist that private contracts between Western companies and Chinese
> companies must use the spelling "Beijing." That would put even more
> pressure on the West to conform.
All of this sounds weird to me. But then I live in the capital of
Denmark, where the local language is Danish. The Danish pronunciation
of the local name of the city is not used in any other language in the
world; and the only other language that uses the same spelling as the
Danish spelling is Norwegian.
My point is that a Turkish company that dealt with the city government
would be likely to have two spellings of the city's name in its spell
checker: One to be used in the official name of the city (which is in
Danish), which would also be the most useful in the postal address, and
one to be used in normal Turkish text that mentions the city.
After all, most sane people phrase addresses on envelopes in the way
that is most likely to result in correct delivery - and there is a real
risk that the Turkish name for the city might not be recognized in
Denmark. Anyway, all of this is old-fashioned. The mail is routed by
means of a four-digit postal code anyway - that part is what you want to
get right.
Skitt
"Earle Jones" <edj...@ispchannel.com> wrote in message
news:edjones-CE4BB1...@news.ispchannel.com...
>
> Schainbaum has of late been nothing more than a quick-trigger brash
> non-think lash-out asshole.
>
> Let him go.
You should have seen his antics the previous time he was here when I pushed
a couple of his buttons. The man completely lost it! I was worried sick
that I might have destroyed him. I have been extremely careful this time so
as not to upset his apple cart.
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://i.am/skitt/
Wayward in Hayward
Schainbaum, Robert
> RS is responsible for himself. It appears that he's departed
> the friendly confines of AUE until whatever need impels him to do what
> he does sends him back here for more. I can wait.
No, Robert, I won't be back, not even to lurk while you guys play trivial pursuit
with the English language. I have learned an important lesson, which is the value
of dissembling in a crowd of strangers. Tell 'em what they wanna hear.
I chose to leave after I saw Matti Lamprhey's posting. I respect Matti Lamprhey,
so she has no reason to feel guilty about my departure. She made it clear that I
wasn't welcome among the small number of people whom I respected and that means
something. It would be too late to change that now.
Robert Lipton was his usual annoying self when he attempted to send a private
email to some poster as a correction to my post in the thread on
optimization/schmoptimization. Who needs a guy who doesn't realize that a Hong
Kong Chinese named *Christopher* would not be satisfied with an English bible that
does not include the New Testament? I'm culturally insensitive?
What else did I learn? Oh yes, each foot of iambic verse in English is uniformly
stressed on the second syllable (Bob Cunningham).
My departure from the group does not mean that private emails, of whatever sort,
will be either unwelcome or ignored.
/r
P&D Schultz
> No, Robert, I won't be back, <...>
He's BAAAAAAA-aaaaack!
\\P. Schultz
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz
>
> No, Robert, I won't be back, not even to lurk while you guys play trivial pursuit
> with the English language.
Damn. Finally somebody in aue who can sling both B5 and dogfood in the
same week, and now he's leaving. Rey's been quiet, Cunningham's been
quiet. It's just dog(food)gone too quiet in here. I'm gonna go meditate
on "The Return of Schainbaum" over some fruitcake. Maybe he'll catch the
vibe.
Dennis
--
Dennis Báthory-Kitsz
MaltedMedia Productions: http://maltedmedia.com/
Kalvos & Damian's New Music Bazaar: http://kalvos.org/
The Transitive Empire: http://maltedmedia.com/empire/
OrbitAccess Accessibility: http://orbitaccess.com/
Downloadable Scores: http://maltedmedia.com/scores/
Lullaby for Bill Gates: http://www.mp3.com/bathory/
ICQ: 10526261 / AIM: DBathory
R J Valentine
...
] Rey's been quiet, Cunningham's been
] quiet.
...
But now you've gone and conjured them both. You _know_ they're always
watching.
--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:r...@clark.net?subject=%3Cnews:alt.usage.english%3E%20>
mpl...@my-deja.com
mpl...@my-deja.com wrote:
[snip]
>
> In Laos in the 1950s, three Westerners created the Romanized Popular
> Alphabet (R.P.A.) for use by the Hmong. In R.P.A., tones are indicated
> by Roman "consonants." The following is adapted from
>
> http://members.citynet.net/brianm/thesis/thesis.htm
>
> Ending letter Tone
> -b high level tone
> -[] high mid level tone
> -s low mid level tone
> -m low level tone punctuated by a glottal stop
> -j high falling tone
> -g high or mid falling breathy tone
> -v mid rising tone
> -d low rising tone
>
> In the above, "-[]" indicates that the high mid level tone is
> represented by absence of a letter marking the tone.
>
> Thus, if one were to remove the tone markers from the Hmong word
> _Asmeslivkas_ ("America"), it would read _Amelika._
>
[snip]
I was discussing the Hmong writing system with an acquaintance
yesterday, and it turned out that she had tutored a Hmong woman in the
English language. She said that the woman, who could write Hmong with
the R.P.A., had a difficult time remembering that consonant letters at
the end of English words were actually to be pronounced as consonants.
pete...@my-deja.com
> The original British system of transliteration is an odd one. It uses
> an apostrophe to differentiate certain sounds, but--oddly--the
> apostrophe doesn't change the sound of the Latin letter from the way
it
> is pronounced in the West. Instead, it keeps it the same. For
> example, T' is pronounced as a T, but a T without an apostrophe is
> pronounced as a D. Thus, "Tao" is pronounced "Dow." So reading this
> system puts you in the position of pronouncing an apostrophe only when
> it ISN'T there.
This isn't quite accurate. Mandarin does not use the voiced [d] or
voiced [b] sounds, but makes a distinction between the aspirated [t]
sound and the unaspirated [t] sound; and also between the aspirated [p]
sound and the unaspirated [p] sound. Most English speaker use the
aspirated [t] and [p] in words like 'tin' and 'pin' (but not all - some
Scottish speakers do not). The Wade-Giles system uses the apostrophe to
indicate aspiration.
[snip]
>It has filtered down to the non-beaurocratic population
enough
> so that "Bejing" has largely replaced Peking in written English.
>
Although it is also relevant to say that 'Peking University' is still
the official English version of the name of that university. And we
still continue to talk about 'Peking duck' and 'Peking opera'. Nobody
mentioned the older 'Pekin' as well, and the fact that we talk about the
Pekinese dog. Or the fact that in French, nobody says 'Beijing' - on dit
Pékin, Messeiurs et Mesdames. Or that Chinese speakers automatically
'nativise' or 'naturalise' foreign names into the Chinese system - eg
'Ying-guo' for England ('Ying' is a kind of transliteration of 'Eng';
and 'guo' means nation or country or kingdom). Why is it that nobody
complains about 'China' not being called 'Zhong-guo' (central kingdom)
as locals do? Nobody complains about Hong Kong (in Cantonese (the local
language) 'Heung gong' or similar depending on your romanisation system;
in Mandarin Xianggang).
Now do people have any comments about Myanmar/Burma; Bombay/Mumbai,
Madras/Chennai?
Peter
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz
>
> But now you've gone and conjured them both. You _know_ they're always
> watching.
It was Halloween. Worth a try!
mart...@my-deja.com
Thanks for the clarification on Wade-Giles. Aspiration is tough. Was
the general point accurate, that is, that "Peking" if pronounced
correctly in that system is pronounced closer to "Beijing" than most
English speakers would realize?
Personally, I don't complain about any of this. I don't think it much
matters who says Peking and who says Beijing. I'm interested in the
history, though.
I recently met a woman from the PRC. She's 40 years old and has lived
her entire life in China, except for coming here about 2 months ago. I
mentioned that I knew that the Chinese word for China, 'Zhong-guo,'
means "middle kingdom" and was used to designate the place between
Heaven at the top and the non-Chinese world at the bottom. She had
never heard of this! Apparently, the communists have stopped teaching
this and it is now out of circulation in China. It is possible that
not many people in China even know that the term had this meaning.
Rowan Dingle
[...]
>I really don't think they [the Chinese] give a crap what the Albanians
>or the Argentinians[1] or the English call their capital.
It used to be part of my job to talk to embassies etc.[2] about things
like this and a lot of them were very picky about things you'd have
thought were the least of their problems. I don't remember for sure
whether the PR China insisted that we change all Pekings to Beijings,
just that we did change them, and this would seem to support your
argument. But most governments with an axe to grind did insist that we
help them grind it and names were a very common... er, blunt axe, and
often for reasons that were, at best, murky to the outsider. For
example, Côte d'Ivoire was always to be known as Côte d'Ivoire:
translation was not allowed. I'm still not sure why, although I can
guess (transliteration not translation is the norm where historical
forms don't exist, so why should we be any different?[3])
--
Rowan Dingle
[1]: Argentines. (Probably just a personal foible.)
[2]: In the Noriega years, Panama held the world record for the largest number
of diplomatic missions maintained by any country in any other single country -
37 IIRC. This world record was, of course, hosted by the USA. (Liechtenstein had
a lot of missions there too.)
I wonder what that was all about.
[3]: If Ivory Coast's neighbour Burkina Faso had demanded this, the demand would
have been met not just with compliance but with sympathy: Burkina Faso, home of
famine, means "Land of Dignity".
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
> Dennis Bathory-Kitsz <bat...@maltedmedia.com> wrote:
> ...
> ] Rey's been quiet, Cunningham's been quiet.
> ...
> But now you've gone and conjured them both.
> You _know_ they're always watching.
No, we're not.
--
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
Robert Lieblich
>
> Thus Spake Schainbaum, Robert:
>
> > What else did I learn? Oh yes, each foot of iambic verse in English is uniformly
> > stressed on the second syllable (Bob Cunningham).
>
> defined as being stressed on the second syllable. I'm sure Bob knows
> that. You, as a student of the classics, should have known it already
> too.
>
> But it is less than true. Shakespeare's "iambic" verse is rather less
> than iambic, although it is regular (according to cutting edge
> linguistic, rather than literary, analysis).
I do believe that RS, being in one of his oblique moods, was making the
point, indirectly to be sure, that he interpreted Bob C's remarks (in an
earlier set of postings and responses) as an insistence that every foot
in iambic pentameter must be an iamb -- no exceptions, not even for
Shakespeare (hence "each" and "uniformly" in RS's comment). I'm not
saying that Bob actually said that -- only that RS so interpreted him.
I doubt it matters any more . . . if it ever did.
P&D Schultz
>
> It used to be part of my job to talk to embassies etc.[2] about things
> like this and a lot of them were very picky about things you'd have
> example, Côte d'Ivoire was always to be known as Côte d'Ivoire:
What a terrific idea. Insist that the name of your country be in the
language of some other people, from some other continent. How admirably
self-effacing.
\\P. Schultz
ChenHA
mart...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> I recently met a woman from the PRC. She's 40 years old and has lived
> her entire life in China, except for coming here about 2 months ago. I
> mentioned that I knew that the Chinese word for China, 'Zhong-guo,'
> means "middle kingdom" and was used to designate the place between
> Heaven at the top and the non-Chinese world at the bottom. She had
> never heard of this! Apparently, the communists have stopped teaching
> this and it is now out of circulation in China. It is possible that
> not many people in China even know that the term had this meaning.
>
That's probably because it is not true. "Middle kingdom" was so-named
in ancient times because, according to one interpretation, it
considered itself the centre of civilisation and was surrounded by
barbarians on the North (Di), South (Man), East (Yi), and West
(Rong). Its meaning, if it was used, changes throughout Chinese
history. It only become the name for China when it was used as the
contraction for "Zhong Hua Ming Guo" in 1911.
An earlier post that suggest that the influence of Russian is
responsible for the use of letters like "X" in pinyin is disputed by
some. See
http://pages.hotbot.com/politics/zjw/russian.html
For what it's worth, I think the pinyin system is stupid and
pointless.
ChenHA
pete...@my-deja.com wrote:
<snip>
> Or that Chinese speakers automatically
> 'nativise' or 'naturalise' foreign names into the Chinese system - eg
> 'Ying-guo' for England ('Ying' is a kind of transliteration of 'Eng';
> and 'guo' means nation or country or kingdom).
Umm, what should be mentioned is that "Ying-guo" doesn't actually mean
England, as it is generally used to mean Britain. There are actually
separate Chinese names for England and Britain ("England" sounds like
the three-syllable chant of the English football fans -"Ying-ge-lan"),
but to most Chinese, England is synonymous with Britain and "Ying-guo"
means Britain. This is of course highly offensive to all Scots and
Welsh and I think the British government should complain and demand
that the Chinese use a different word for Britain.
> Now do people have any comments about Myanmar/Burma; Bombay/Mumbai,
> Madras/Chennai?
>
I think there are two reasons for the change of name:
1) Change of government or regime, very often after a revolution. The
new regime is keen to suggest a break with the past and anxious for
the outside world to recognise them by using their new names. If you
can't change the name, change the spelling. Hence the various names
for St. Petersburg, Cambodia to Kampuchea and back again, Bombay to
Mumbai.
2) Internal reason. IIRC, and my memory is hazy on this, "Beijing"
was imposed as the standard during the Seventies when the Chinese
government was keen on the romanisation of Chinese and there was
suggestion of replacing the Chinese script with Latin alphabet. I
think this romanisation of the Chinese language was tried on one of
the remoter part of China but I have never heard any more about this
since, presumably because the whole thing was an abject failure. As
for Burma/Myanmar, Myanmar has been the actual name of Burma since its
independence. However, the insistence by the Burmese military regime
on the use of Myanmar is, I think, largely to distract the attention
away from the uprisings by the various ethnic groups in Burma and to
disguise the fact that Burma is governed by Burmans and all other
ethnic groups are subjugated by the Burmans.
Charles Riggs
<Robert.S...@Berlin.DE> wrote:
>Charles Riggs wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 29 Oct 2000 23:40:42 -0500, "Schainbaum, Robert"
>> <Robert.S...@Berlin.DE> wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> >I hope no one's fooled around with Bangkok!
>>
>> Learn to snip, fool. A 76 line attribution followed by a one-line
>> response is ridiculous.
>
>Learn to put me in your killfile.
That's exactly where you've been since your return. I only let you out
a few days ago because I understood from a friend that you were taking
potshots at me. Tit for tat and all that. By the way, why haven't you
left, as promised?
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
<Robert.S...@Berlin.DE> wrote:
>Sorry, Matti, I'm not a schizophrenic. One personality. Sorry if I offended
>your friend Mr. Riggs. He irritates me.
Then I'm succeeding.
Charles Riggs
mpl...@my-deja.com
I think it's just a matter of having a common language--the fact that
it comes from another continent is a historical accident. The following
is from
http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/iv.html#People
[quote]
Languages: French (official), 60 native dialects with Dioula the most
widely spoken
[end quote]
Switzerland solved a similar problem by using a dead language. In Latin
the name of their country is Confederation Helvetia, hence the CH
country plate on their cars and the .ch in their Internet domain names.
gerald...@my-deja.com
ChenHA <hz...@freeuk.com> wrote:
[snip]
> For what it's worth, I think the pinyin system is stupid and
> pointless.
Well, to replace written Chinese it would be. But we need some system for
transliterating Chinese in the Roman alphabet, and the Pinyin system would
seem to be as good as any other for that purpose.
Gerald Smyth
pete...@my-deja.com
ChenHA <hz...@freeuk.com> wrote:
>
> Umm, what should be mentioned is that "Ying-guo" doesn't actually mean
> England, as it is generally used to mean Britain. There are actually
> separate Chinese names for England and Britain ("England" sounds like
> the three-syllable chant of the English football fans -"Ying-ge-lan"),
> but to most Chinese, England is synonymous with Britain and "Ying-guo"
> means Britain. This is of course highly offensive to all Scots and
> Welsh and I think the British government should complain and demand
> that the Chinese use a different word for Britain.
This problem is not limited to Chinese. I'm told that Germans and other
continentals use 'England' ('Angleterre', etc.) to refer to Britain as
well. Even people in Southern English seem to use it this way. The Scots
get very annoyed - I was in Edinburgh for four years. It's a bit like
the way English speakers use 'Holland' to refer to the Netherlands, I
suppose.
>
> > Now do people have any comments about Myanmar/Burma; Bombay/Mumbai,
> > Madras/Chennai?
> >
>
> I think there are two reasons for the change of name:
>
> 1) Change of government or regime, very often after a revolution. The
> new regime is keen to suggest a break with the past and anxious for
> the outside world to recognise them by using their new names. If you
> can't change the name, change the spelling. Hence the various names
> for St. Petersburg, Cambodia to Kampuchea and back again, Bombay to
> Mumbai.
>
> 2) Internal reason. IIRC, and my memory is hazy on this, "Beijing"
> was imposed as the standard during the Seventies when the Chinese
> government was keen on the romanisation of Chinese and there was
> suggestion of replacing the Chinese script with Latin alphabet. I
> think this romanisation of the Chinese language was tried on one of
> the remoter part of China but I have never heard any more about this
> since, presumably because the whole thing was an abject failure. As
> for Burma/Myanmar, Myanmar has been the actual name of Burma since its
> independence. However, the insistence by the Burmese military regime
> on the use of Myanmar is, I think, largely to distract the attention
> away from the uprisings by the various ethnic groups in Burma and to
> disguise the fact that Burma is governed by Burmans and all other
> ethnic groups are subjugated by the Burmans.
>
It makes a difference whether you are insisting that foreigners in their
foreign languages spell/pronounce one way or other; or you are insisting
that foreigners using your own language spell/pronounce one way or
another, it seems to me. The Burmese can make unilateral decisions about
the Burmese language. Can they make unilateral decisions about the
English language? I don't know what the French do with 'Burma' and
'Burmese', but I'd bet my bottom dollar that they are not giving up
their French terms. And of course if the change is motivated by politics
and subjugation, we might well want to resist the change further.
pete...@my-deja.com
mart...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Thanks for the clarification on Wade-Giles. Aspiration is tough. Was
> the general point accurate, that is, that "Peking" if pronounced
> correctly in that system is pronounced closer to "Beijing" than most
> English speakers would realize?
>
I don't think we should worry about 'correct' pronunciation. My
understanding is that 'Peking' isn't a full attempt to represent
Mandarin pronunciation. Think of 'Canton' for pinyin 'Guangzhou', in
Wade-Giles Kwangchow (I think).
But if we're interested in the details, I think 'Peking' resembles the
OLD Wade-Giles - resembles only because an old Wade-Giles romanisation
would render it as 'Peiking', and new Wade-Giles as 'Peiching'.
'Nanking' also represents old Wade-Giles (for new Wade-Giles 'Nanching',
and pinyin 'Nanjing').
Peter
P&D Schultz
>
> In article <3A00B89D...@erols.com>,
> P&D Schultz <schu...@erols.com> wrote:
> > Rowan Dingle wrote:
> > >
> > > It used to be part of my job to talk to embassies etc.[2] about
> things
> > > like this and a lot of them were very picky about things you'd have
> > > thought were the least of their problems. <...> For
> > > example, Côte d'Ivoire was always to be known as Côte d'Ivoire:
> > > translation was not allowed. I'm still not sure why, <...>
> >
> > What a terrific idea. Insist that the name of your country be in the
> > language of some other people, from some other continent. How
> admirably
> > self-effacing.
> >
But their insistence that it mustn't be translated is not an accident.
It's a continual choice.
Anyway, they can only admonish the violators that they know about. The
Arabs and the Chinese tranlate "Côte d'Ivoire" into Arabic and Chinese
all the time, and the Ivorians don't even know about it. Nyah nyah!
\\P. Schultz
P&D Schultz
>
> In article <3A00C9A4...@freeuk.com>,
> ChenHA <hz...@freeuk.com> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > For what it's worth, I think the pinyin system is stupid and
> > pointless.
>
> Well, to replace written Chinese it would be. But we need some system for
> transliterating Chinese in the Roman alphabet, and the Pinyin system would
> seem to be as good as any other for that purpose.
It would, except that it has words starting with X and Q. So it's not.
\\P. Schultz
gerald...@my-deja.com
mart...@my-deja.com
> in ancient times because, according to one interpretation, it
> considered itself the centre of civilisation and was surrounded by
> barbarians on the North (Di), South (Man), East (Yi), and West
> (Rong). Its meaning, if it was used, changes throughout Chinese
> history. It only become the name for China when it was used as the
> contraction for "Zhong Hua Ming Guo" in 1911.
She was unfamiliar with the idea that "Zhong Guo" meant "Middle
Kingdom," not only the specifics of what the Kingdom was in the middle
of (which is, as you say, open to interpretation). So the point may
still be accurate (if basing what a country is doing on what one person
knows can be said to be accurate).
Peter Prictoe
<pete...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8tr4er$fs2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> This problem is not limited to Chinese. I'm told that Germans and other
> continentals use 'England' ('Angleterre', etc.) to refer to Britain as
> well. Even people in Southern English seem to use it this way. The Scots
> get very annoyed - I was in Edinburgh for four years. It's a bit like
> the way English speakers use 'Holland' to refer to the Netherlands, I
> suppose.
>
PP As a southerrn Englishman living in the north of England may I enquire as
to where is this Southern English region?
Peter P in Barnsley near Portsmouth as I think Perchprism would say.
Chris Conner
Rowan Dingle <use...@wickenden.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>[3]: If Ivory Coast's neighbour Burkina Faso had demanded this, the demand would
>have been met not just with compliance but with sympathy: Burkina Faso, home of
>famine, means "Land of Dignity".
I've just acquired a copy of the Dorling Kindersly World Atlas,
Second Edition. It just gives "Burkina" as the name of the country, and
I'd been wondering why. I think DK is a Brittish publisher. Is leaving off
the "Faso" a general practice over there, or is it just a quirk of DK?
--
Chris Conner
Donna Richoux
> I've just acquired a copy of the Dorling Kindersly World Atlas,
> Second Edition. It just gives "Burkina" as the name of the country, and
> I'd been wondering why. I think DK is a Brittish publisher. Is leaving off
> the "Faso" a general practice over there, or is it just a quirk of DK?
That's just the sort of question the the Getty Thesaurus of Geographic
Names could help with. it would show you how it has been listed in other
atlas and references.
http://shiva.pub.getty.edu/tgn_browser/
It's also fairly easy to find out on the Web what the US State Dept. and
the British Foreign Office call a country, and I think the United
Nations too. I can dig out some URLs if you want.
==
Best --- Donna Richoux
Rowan Dingle
> I've just acquired a copy of the Dorling Kindersly World Atlas,
>Second Edition. It just gives "Burkina" as the name of the country, and
>I'd been wondering why. I think DK is a Brittish publisher. Is leaving off
>the "Faso" a general practice over there, or is it just a quirk of DK?
No idea, I'm afraid. I'm out of touch with all that.
But I thought DK was American.
--
Rowan Dingle
Brian J Goggin
No, no, no. Best of British, though did have a relationship with
Microsoft. Got into trouble by overdosing on Star Wars books last Xmas
and ended up in the arms of Pearson, where it seems to be running in
harness with Penguin: perhaps a successor to Ladybird. Production of
CD-ROMs is to be run down, I gather.
bjg
P&D Schultz
>
> In article <3A016557...@erols.com>,
> P&D Schultz <schu...@erols.com> wrote:
> > gerald...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <3A00C9A4...@freeuk.com>,
> > > ChenHA <hz...@freeuk.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > [snip]
> > >
> > > > For what it's worth, I think the pinyin system is stupid and
> > > > pointless.
> > >
> > > Well, to replace written Chinese it would be. But we need some
> system for
> > > transliterating Chinese in the Roman alphabet, and the Pinyin
> system would
> > > seem to be as good as any other for that purpose.
> >
> > It would, except that it has words starting with X and Q. So it's not.
>
> What do you recommend?
Yale.
\\P. Schultz
mpl...@my-deja.com
tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote:
[snip]
>
> It's also fairly easy to find out on the Web what the US State Dept.
and
> the British Foreign Office call a country, and I think the United
> Nations too. I can dig out some URLs if you want.
>
> ==
> Best --- Donna Richoux
>
The CIA maintains "The World Factbook" at
http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/
which lists information on each country. I presume that the country
names in the factbook are those that are used internally by the CIA,
and probably also the same as those used by the U.S. State Department.
--
Raymond S. Wise
"The biochemistry of the world is straight out of a Bill Gates
fantasy--there's only one operating system for everything."
Joel Achenbach
Paul Pfalzner
"Spehro Pefhany" <sp...@interlog.com> wrote in message news:2tBM5.24783>
> I think the old Soviet Union disliked the idea that Ukraine was a
> potentially independent country, and calling it "the Ukraine" makes it
> sound like a region rather than an independent country. Now that it is a
> country, it calls itself "Ukraine".
But what was it called in Russian/Ukrainian? Your story seems doubtful.
Anyway several countries go with the definite article: The Netherlands, or
Die Schweiz in German.]
So where is the imagined putdown of using the article?
PM
Rowan Dingle
>On Thu, 2 Nov 2000 21:00:45 +0000, Rowan Dingle
>>But I thought DK was American.
>
>No, no, no. Best of British,
DK: bright, cheerful, uncomplicated. British:... Well, I don't want to
come over all oikophobic.
DK doesn't necessarily have to be typical to be the "best of", I
suppose.
> though did have a relationship with
>Microsoft. Got into trouble by overdosing on Star Wars books last Xmas
>and ended up in the arms of Pearson, where it seems to be running in
>harness with Penguin: perhaps a successor to Ladybird. Production of
>CD-ROMs is to be run down, I gather.
Well, I hope they survive. The only DK publication I can recall paying
serious attention to was an amazing pop-up book about tropical fish I
bought for a nephew (the book, not the fish). Very beautiful, it was,
and quite sturdy too.
--
Rowan Dingle
Spehro Pefhany
> "Spehro Pefhany" <sp...@interlog.com> wrote in message news:2tBM5.24783>
>> I think the old Soviet Union disliked the idea that Ukraine was a
>> potentially independent country, and calling it "the Ukraine" makes it
>> sound like a region rather than an independent country. Now that it is a
>> country, it calls itself "Ukraine".
> But what was it called in Russian/Ukrainian?
According to the CIA factbook, the current name is "Ukrayina" (presumably
translated from Cyrillic, but I am not sure), and former name was
"Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic".
> Your story seems doubtful.
Fair enough, but there are a lot of Ukrainians in Canada, particularly in
the Western part of the country, and they were quite active in politics.
It is my thought that these pro-independence immigrants, and their
equivalents in the US and other English-speaking countries were the force
against using the term "The Ukraine".
> Anyway several countries go with the definite article: The Netherlands, or
> Die Schweiz in German.]
> So where is the imagined putdown of using the article?
The Netherlands is the only exception I can think of in English. Maybe
that's why we prefer to call it Holland, it doesn't sound like it is a
real country otherwise. ;-)
Best regards,
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Contributions invited->The AVR-gcc FAQ is at: http://www.BlueCollarLinux.com
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
N.Mitchum
-----
> > Anyway several countries go with the definite article: The Netherlands, or
> > Die Schweiz in German.]
> > So where is the imagined putdown of using the article?
>
> The Netherlands is the only exception I can think of in English. Maybe
> that's why we prefer to call it Holland, it doesn't sound like it is a
> real country otherwise.
The Argentine. The Lebanon. The Netherlands and the Ukraine.
That's four, and there are probably others.
Rather old-fashioned, perhaps, but genuine names.
----NM
Carmen L. Abruzzi
----------
In article <3A034F...@lafn.org>, "N.Mitchum" <aj...@lafn.org>
wrote:
>Spehro Pefhany wrote:
>-----
>> > Anyway several countries go with the definite article: The
>Netherlands, or
>> > Die Schweiz in German.]
>> > So where is the imagined putdown of using the article?
>>
>> The Netherlands is the only exception I can think of in English. Maybe
>> that's why we prefer to call it Holland, it doesn't sound like it is a
>> real country otherwise.
>>......
>
>The Argentine. The Lebanon. The Netherlands and the Ukraine.
>That's four, and there are probably others.
>
The United States.
P&D Schultz
>
> I think the old Soviet Union disliked the idea that Ukraine was a
> potentially independent country, and calling it "the Ukraine" makes it
I'll believe that when you tell me what the Russian word for "the" is. I
can hardly wait to hear it.
\\P. Schultz
Karen Zachary
> "Spehro Pefhany" <sp...@interlog.com> wrote in message news:2tBM5.24783>
> > I think the old Soviet Union disliked the idea that Ukraine was a
> > potentially independent country, and calling it "the Ukraine" makes it
> > sound like a region rather than an independent country. Now that it is a
> > country, it calls itself "Ukraine".
>>
> But what was it called in Russian/Ukrainian? Your story seems doubtful.
[..]
> So where is the imagined putdown of using the article?
It may sound doubtful, but it's almost right. I don't think the Soviets
called the area "the" Ukraine as a put-down; this usage goes back long
before 1917. I do think that the Ukrainians, after becoming a republic,
made a point of dropping the "the" as a way of symbolizing their
independence from Russia.
Ukrainians were persecuted by Russians for generations; you can't really
blame them for wanting to demonstrate their freedom from Moscow in any
possible way.
If I am wrong on this point, I hope one of our Russian friends will set
us straight.
P&D Schultz
> <...> I don't think the Soviets
> called the area "the" Ukraine as a put-down; <...>
Not as a put-down, and not for any other reason. Because they never did
it.
\\P. Schultz
P&D Schultz
> <...> Please don't
> ignore this component and assume that English language usage is devoid of
> politics, <...>
You seem to consider it useful to direct such an appeal to some
individual or group participating in this discussion. But I don't know
what prompted you to do so, since I haven't seen any evidence that
anyone here would disagree with your rather obvious proposition.
On the other hand, I have seen no convincing evidence that politics was
ever behind anyone's employment of the definite article on "Ukraine."
Only unbacked claims and "feelings."
\\P. Schultz
R. Fontana
If you go back further, weren't Russians at one point ruled over by
Ukrainians? I seem to remember learning something about a period of
Kievan rule.
--
Richard
P&D Schultz
> My argument is that politically active Ukrainian immigrants to English
> speaking countries lobbied for the use of the term "Ukraine". <...>
I think that's true. But it was a dumb move on a couple of counts.
(1) The perception that the "the" in "the Ukraine" is in any way
denigrating is just plain false. The problem may have been that, while
these Ukrainian expatriots had learned English, they had not learned it
as well as they thought they had.
(Incidentally, I think the UK Foreign Office should go after the French
hard, because of this "l'Angleterre" business).
(2) There IS something objectionable about "the Ukraine," but the
Ukrainians chose the wrong word to object to. There's nothing wrong with
the "the". There's something wrong with "Ukraine." Both in Ukrainian and
in Russian, it means "along the border." And what border to you suppose
is being referred to? Why, the Russian border, of course!
\\P. Schultz
P&D Schultz
>
> Yale's replacement of initial 'q' with 'ch', as well as 'c' by 'ts'
> and 'z' by 'dz', does represent an improvement
I don't think the Yale system replaced any elements of pinyin. I think
Yale came first.
> (though Yale 'sy' seems
> just as conventional as Pinyin 'x').
But I think a non-Chinese would be able to make a closer guess at "sy"
than at "x".
You're right, though. Pinyin will win out. I don't think my letter to
the editor of Ren Min Ri Bao is going to turn the tide
\\P. Schultz
P&D Schultz
> And the Netherlands are supposed to be annoyed because their name
> derives from a comparison to the lands of other countries?
They are? Well, that's news. Where did you hear that? Or did you make it
up?
\\P. Schultz
Carmen L. Abruzzi
----------
In article
<Pine.SOL.4.21.001103...@is9.nyu.edu>, "R.
Fontana" <rf...@is9.nyu.edu> wrote:
>If you go back further, weren't Russians at one point ruled over by
>Ukrainians? I seem to remember learning something about a period of
>Kievan rule.
Those weren't Ukrainians, they were Rus. Varangians, otherwise
known as Vikings. It was the Vikings who unified Russia
initially. Probably there was no distinction between Russians
and Ukrainians at that point. Probably when the Mongols (the
Golden Horde) took control of the southern area in the 1200s the
distinction developed. Russian and Ukrainian are pretty close,
one of those cases of a dialect with an army and a navy.
gerald...@my-deja.com
[snip]
> > > > [trim] But we need some
> > system for
> > > > transliterating Chinese in the Roman alphabet, and the Pinyin
> > system would
> > > > seem to be as good as any other for that purpose.
> > >
> > > It would, except that it has words starting with X and Q. So it's
not.
> >
> > What do you recommend?
>
> Yale.
Is that the one with 'v' for Pinyin 'e' and 'yw' for umlaut 'u'?
P&D Schultz
>
> In article <3A0223D0...@erols.com>,
> P&D Schultz <schu...@erols.com> wrote:
> > gerald...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > > > > [trim] But we need some
> > > system for
> > > > > transliterating Chinese in the Roman alphabet, and the Pinyin
> > > system would
> > > > > seem to be as good as any other for that purpose.
> > > >
> > > > It would, except that it has words starting with X and Q. So it's
> not.
> > >
> > > What do you recommend?
> >
> > Yale.
>
> Is that the one with 'v' for Pinyin 'e' and 'yw' for umlaut 'u'?
Nope.
\\P. Schultz
mpl...@my-deja.com
P&D Schultz <schu...@erols.com> wrote:
> mpl...@my-deja.com wrote, concerning the country "Côte d'Ivoire":
[snip]
> > I think it's just a matter of having a common language--the fact
that
> > it comes from another continent is a historical accident. <...>
>
> But their insistence that it mustn't be translated is not an accident.
> It's a continual choice.
>
> Anyway, they can only admonish the violators that they know about. The
> Arabs and the Chinese tranlate "Côte d'Ivoire" into Arabic and Chinese
> all the time, and the Ivorians don't even know about it. Nyah nyah!
>
> \\P. Schultz
>
A friend of mine who speak Arabic verified that "Côte d'Ivoire" is
translated into Arabic (although he first learned of it under the
French name since his schools held classes in French only).
I was reading the (Minneapolis) Star Tribune today, and in an editorial
entitled "Ivory Coast" (page A28) the first sentence was:
[quote]
In a pattern that is all too familiar in Africa, the Ivory Coast finds
itself grappling with intense ethnic and religious differences as it
tries to create a unified democracy.
[end quote]
Well, I had a revelation! Now, I don't know why English-speaking people
used to call Ukraine "the Ukraine," but I know that the Ukrainians who
knew of the practice did not appreciate it. (Most of them anyway: It's
at least possible that some of them did like the uniqueness of it.)
I _do know_ why English-speaking say "the Ivory Coast." Perhaps the
Ivorians disliked that definite article as much as the Ukrainians. But
instead of insisting that we drop the "the," they instead insisted that
we call their country "Côte d'Ivoire." After all, _no one_ says "the
Côte d'Ivoire"!
(I am speaking tongue in cheek, but only a little bit. It sounds like a
possibly valid theory!)
--
Raymond S. Wise
"The biochemistry of the world is straight out of a Bill Gates
fantasy--there's only one operating system for everything."
Joel Achenbach
Spehro Pefhany
> Well, I had a revelation! Now, I don't know why English-speaking people
> used to call Ukraine "the Ukraine," but I know that the Ukrainians who
> knew of the practice did not appreciate it. (Most of them anyway: It's
> at least possible that some of them did like the uniqueness of it.)
I think the old Soviet Union disliked the idea that Ukraine was a
potentially independent country, and calling it "the Ukraine" makes it
sound like a region rather than an independent country. Now that it is a
country, it calls itself "Ukraine".
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
>>The Argentine. The Lebanon. The Netherlands and the Ukraine.
>>That's four, and there are probably others.
>>
> The United States.
That one I'll agree with, and the Netherlands. The others I have never
heard, and "the Ukraine" was never a country as far as I know.
Interesting that they are both plural. We also say North Carolina or
South Dakota, but "the Carolinas" or "the Dakotas".
What is going on here?
Spehro Pefhany
> Spehro Pefhany wrote:
>>
>> I think the old Soviet Union disliked the idea that Ukraine was a
>> potentially independent country, and calling it "the Ukraine" makes it
> I'll believe that when you tell me what the Russian word for "the" is. I
> can hardly wait to hear it.
My argument is that politically active Ukrainian immigrants to English
speaking countries lobbied for the use of the term "Ukraine". I suppose
that Arabs could similarly argue for the use of the term Palestine to
refer to part of what is now Israel (in the press *here* in Canada),
rather than whatever it is called now. Again, similarly, the government of
the island formerly known as Formosa is the "Republic of China *on*
Taiwan", not "Taiwan". The latter suggests an independent country that is
not China.
I have no idea what words were used in Russian, and I don't think it
matters in this context.
During the time of the NATO attacks on the rump Yugoslavia, I went to the
taping of a CBC program on the subject, hosted by Michael Enright. Serbian
activists had completely stacked the audience, and not a single question
was asked that was not anti-American or pro-Serbian. These people exert
pressure on the press through letter writing campaigns and similar avenues
to get them to change the words used. This is not a trivial thing to them,
and judging by the name of this newsgroup, not to us either. Please don't
ignore this component and assume that English language usage is devoid of
politics, even when it is referring to far-away lands.
gerald...@my-deja.com
P&D Schultz <schu...@erols.com> wrote:
> gerald...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <3A0223D0...@erols.com>,
> > P&D Schultz <schu...@erols.com> wrote:
> > > gerald...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > > > > [trim] But we need some
> > > > system for
> > > > > > transliterating Chinese in the Roman alphabet, and the
Pinyin
> > > > system would
> > > > > > seem to be as good as any other for that purpose.
> > > > >
> > > > > It would, except that it has words starting with X and Q. So
it's
> > not.
> > > >
> > > > What do you recommend?
> > >
> > > Yale.
[snip]
Yale's replacement of initial 'q' with 'ch', as well as 'c' by 'ts'
and 'z' by 'dz', does represent an improvement (though Yale 'sy' seems
just as conventional as Pinyin 'x'). But a decision which to use need
not be based just on linguistic logic. Another factor is familiarity
through use in newspapers and scholarly works, and it is Pinyin that
holds the advantage here. That advantage looks set to grow as the
Library of Congress changes over.
Brian J Goggin
<din...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>DK: bright, cheerful, uncomplicated. British:... Well, I don't want to
>come over all oikophobic.
>
>DK doesn't necessarily have to be typical to be the "best of", I
>suppose.
[...]
Culture for the masses. Great Exhibition, all those museums, Boys Own,
Reithian BBC, the Dome ....
bjg
mpl...@my-deja.com
"Spehro Pefhany" <sp...@interlog.com> wrote:
> The renowned Carmen L. Abruzzi <n...@mit.edu> wrote:
>
> >>The Argentine. The Lebanon. The Netherlands and the Ukraine.
> >>That's four, and there are probably others.
> >>
> > The United States.
>
> That one I'll agree with, and the Netherlands. The others I have never
> heard, and "the Ukraine" was never a country as far as I know.
>
> Interesting that they are both plural. We also say North Carolina or
> South Dakota, but "the Carolinas" or "the Dakotas".
>
> What is going on here?
>
There is a long discussion about the "the Ukraine/Ukraine" question (in
which both sides are represented) at
http://www.mailbase.ac.uk/lists/russian-teaching/2000-08/0005.html
from which I quote the following:
[quote]
How about it being just a case of proper English?
General rule - In English, unless it is a collective entity the names
of sovreign states do not take the definite article. Territories, btw
do.
So ...
The United States
The Phillipines
The United Kingdom
The Netherlands
The Russian Federation are correct.
At one time when certain states were territories of such things as
empires it
may have been apropos to use the definite article. "The Argentine"
solved it
by becoming Argentina; the Lebanon somewhere along the way began to
sound
ackward. That hasn't wholly happened yet with Ukraine. By saying "the"
Ukraine
you are implying that it is a territory rather than a sovreign state.
[end quote]
Note the interesting case of two names that remain in their original
French form. I said in a previous post that no one says "the Côte
d'Ivoire." Instead we say "Côte d'Ivoire." However, we _do_ say "the
Côte d'Azur" instead of simply "Côte d'Azur"! The first is a country,
the second is a region. (It is _not_ the French Riviera, by the way,
but a part of the French Riviera. Thus it is listed in the Merriam-
Webster collegiate dictionaries and the American Heritage Dictionary as
a geographic term used in English.)
mpl...@my-deja.com
P&D Schultz <schu...@erols.com> wrote:
> Spehro Pefhany wrote:
>
> > My argument is that politically active Ukrainian immigrants to
English
>
> I think that's true. But it was a dumb move on a couple of counts.
>
> (1) The perception that the "the" in "the Ukraine" is in any way
> denigrating is just plain false. The problem may have been that, while
> these Ukrainian expatriots had learned English, they had not learned
it
> as well as they thought they had.
>
> (Incidentally, I think the UK Foreign Office should go after the
French
> hard, because of this "l'Angleterre" business).
The French usage of the definite article is irrelevant, of course. See
my separate post in which I quote a writer who argues that "the
Ukraine" is simply a matter of improper English usage.
>
> (2) There IS something objectionable about "the Ukraine," but the
> Ukrainians chose the wrong word to object to. There's nothing wrong
with
> the "the". There's something wrong with "Ukraine." Both in Ukrainian
and
> in Russian, it means "along the border." And what border to you
suppose
> is being referred to? Why, the Russian border, of course!
>
> \\P. Schultz
>
And the Netherlands are supposed to be annoyed because their name
derives from a comparison to the lands of other countries?
mpl...@my-deja.com
P&D Schultz <schu...@erols.com> wrote:
> mpl...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > And the Netherlands are supposed to be annoyed because their name
> > derives from a comparison to the lands of other countries?
>
it
> up?
>
> \\P. Schultz
>
The Netherlands mean "the Low Lands," but of course, you knew that.
There is an expression in English, _The Low Countries,_ defined by
Merriam Webster Online as:
[quote]
Main Entry: Low Countries
Usage: geographical name
region W Europe bordering on North Sea & comprising modern Belgium,
Luxembourg, & the Netherlands
[end quote]
So my original comment should have been
"And the Netherlands are supposed to be annoyed because their name
derives from a comparison to the lands of other countries (those which
lie outside _The Low Countries,_ of which the Netherlands is a part)?"
It follows that the area outside the Low Countries is in other
countries.
Now then, do you take exception to _that_?
By the way, under the entry for the Netherlands in www.britannica.com ,
it is noted that the Dutch recognize in their country a division
between the Low Netherlands and the High Netherlands.
And according to "The Getty Thesaurus of Geographic Names browser " (at
http://shiva.pub.getty.edu/tgn_browser/ -- Thanks to Donna Richoux for
the reference) under the entry for Belgium, it is noted that former
English names for Belgium included the Southern Netherlands, the
Austrian Netherlands, and the Spanish Netherlands.
mpl...@my-deja.com
mpl...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <3A038B58...@erols.com>,
> P&D Schultz <schu...@erols.com> wrote:
> > mpl...@my-deja.com wrote:
I posted this in another message, but since P. Schultz has not yet
replied to it, it occurred to me that it may be because the name of the
thread changed. Therefore I am posting it here in the hope that he will
comment on it.
Re-posting of message from Raymond S. Wise (mpl...@my-deja.com):
http://www.mailbase.ac.uk/lists/russian-teaching/2000-08/0005.html
[quote]
[end quote]
Rudolf Schwarzkopf-Zskai
: The Argentine. The Lebanon. The Netherlands and the Ukraine.
: That's four, and there are probably others.
I've been wondering of late about the Czech Republic....... never seen it
mentioned as anything else. Is this what the Czechs themselves call it,
(albeit in Czech of course)? Isn't there a noun for that land, (which I
think of as being a combination of Bohemia and Moravia)?
I'm wondering how many other republics go by an adjective and not a noun?
I know the Russian Federation is, er, um, 'Russian', but we all know there
is also a noun 'Russia'.
Off the top of my head I can only come up with the Dominican Republic,
(but maybe that place is sort-of-also known as Dominica?).
By the way, isn't 'The Gambia' definitely-articled (if I may make so
bold as to so verb).
--
rud...@ntlworld.com - Nottingham UK - www.lizardnet.freeserve.co.uk
Rudolf Schwarzkopf-Zskai
N.Mitchum said:
: The Argentine. The Lebanon. The Netherlands and the Ukraine.
: That's four, and there are probably others.
I've been wondering of late about the Czech Republic....... never seen it
mentioned as anything else. Is this what the Czechs themselves call it,
(albeit in Czech of course)? Isn't there a noun for that land, (which I
think of as being a comination of Bohemia and Moravia)?
I'm wondering how many other republics go by an adjective and not a noun?
I know the Russian Federation is, er, um, 'Russian', but we all know there
is also a noun 'Russia'.
Off the top of my head I can only come up with the Dominican Republic,
(but maybe that place is sort-of-also known as Dominica?).
By the way, isn't 'The Gambia' definitely-articled (if I may may make so
Alex Chernavsky
>I've been wondering of late about the Czech Republic
And I've been wondering about Papua New Guinea. When did the word "Papua"
get tacked on to the name of the country? Is that something fairly new?
When I first heard it, I thought that Papua was a city within the country of
New Guinea.
--
Alex Chernavsky
al...@astrocyte-design.com