New page on the AUE site: Pronunciation of newsgroup contributors' names
The aue webmaster
pronunciation of some regular contributors' names.
http://alt-usage-english.org/audio_gallery/
The page was created after a suggestion by Nobuko Iwasaki and subsequent
discussion in this newsgroup. I've included on the page all the people
involved in that discussion, except those that didn't respond to my
invitation (due principally to mailboxes overflowing with Swen
messages). They are:
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
Robert Bannister
Mike Barnes
Dr Robin Bignall
Maria Conlon ("Tootsie")
Jitze Couperus
Bob Cunningham
Aaron J. Dinkin
R H Draney
Dena Jo
Evan Kirshenbaum
Sara Moffat Lorimer
Donna Richoux
Charles Riggs
Harvey Van Sickle
Garry J. Vass
Michael West
Raymond S. Wise
To everybody involved - thank you.
I welcome further contributions from anyone else who'd like to see their
name on the page. Here's an extract from the page describing why I think
it would be a good idea to add your name.
"The more names we have, the better. Even if the pronunciation of
your name is so obvious that anyone could work it out from the
spelling, we'd still like to see it - this page serves as an
interesting and fun exercise for people learning ASCII IPA, and a few
easy ones would be greatly appreciated. But as reactions to this page
have shown, the pronunciation of many names certainly isn't obvious,
especially to many non-native English speakers. Even native speakers
have been surprised to discover that the way they'd imagined a name
being pronounced was in fact quite wrong, and have been delighted to
learn the "proper" pronunciation. It's instructive to see how our
preconceptions can lead us astray. The sound files, where available,
remove all possibility of error, and provide a personal touch that is
missing from a lot of the material in aue."
Take a look at the page to see how to get your name added.
--
Mike Barnes
Webmaster, http://alt-usage-english.org/
Tony Cooper
Lord love a duck! Will you be forgetting how to pronounce "Michael
West" and get on with posting Charles Rigg's photograph!
Skitt
> Lord love a duck! Will you be forgetting how to pronounce "Michael
> West" and get on with posting Charles Rigg's photograph!
Obviously, you haven't looked. It's there.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>> Lord love a duck! Will you be forgetting how to pronounce "Michael
>> West" and get on with posting Charles Rigg's photograph!
>
>Obviously, you haven't looked. It's there.
So it is. There should have been fanfare or at least a rattle of
snare drums. Surprisingly ordinary looking, isn't he?
But what, though, is the sign over his left shoulder? Is that the
international symbol for "Don't run with scissors", an Irish sign that
means "If you are really in a hurry, there's a second bog downstairs",
or directions to an indoor track?
R J Valentine
} There's a new page on the alt-usage-english site, showing the
} pronunciation of some regular contributors' names.
}
} http://alt-usage-english.org/audio_gallery/
}
} The page was created after a suggestion by Nobuko Iwasaki and subsequent
} discussion in this newsgroup. I've included on the page all the people
} involved in that discussion, except those that didn't respond to my
} invitation (due principally to mailboxes overflowing with Swen
} messages). They are:
}
} Reinhold (Rey) Aman
Funny, but this time it _did_ sound like "RAINhold ARnold AHmahn" -- wait,
I mean "RAINhold AHLbairt AHmahn" (rather than "RHINEhold, as it seemed to
last time, maybe because I was expecting that).
} Robert Bannister
} Mike Barnes
What I want to know is whether Mr. Barnes _expects_ people to pronounce
his name "BAHNS", rather than "BARNS", or does he just not care.
} Dr Robin Bignall
} Maria Conlon ("Tootsie")
} Jitze Couperus
} Bob Cunningham
Now this one here was utterly fascinating to me, who was thoroughly
convinced by the "father caught hot coffee" recording that there was an
"aw"/"ah" merger there, because all the vowels sound half-way between,
sort of like the cardinal [A] sound in two of the three professional
recordings of it. But the 'People call me "Bob"' segment of
Mr. Cunningham's recording at the above URL has a near-perfect "aw" and
"ah" that could easily become the alt.usage.english standard for "aw" and
"ah". Listen for the excellent "PEEP-l CAWL mee BAHB" in that
recording. I'd hesitate to express it in ASCII IPA, which is notoriously
clumsy for aw's and ah's, because the perfect "aw" is somewhere between
[A] and [O], and the perfect "ah" is somewhere between [a] and [A]. But
Mr. Cunningham has them both nailed in this one recording (the "ah" in
"Robert" is a good one, too, but the "ah" in "Bob" is right close to the
"aw" in "call", so it makes for a good snippet. I want to apologize here
and now for any hints I may have dropped in the past that Mr. Cunningham
can't seem to do a proper "aw" or "ah". Anyone who wants a sound
recording of what I'm talking about when I mention aw's and ah's need only
listen to Mr. Cunningham's 'People call me "Bob".'
--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:ARjayVA...@wicked.smart.net>
/'ardZEj'v&l@n,tajn/
R H Draney
>
>The page was created after a suggestion by Nobuko Iwasaki and subsequent
>discussion in this newsgroup. I've included on the page all the people
>involved in that discussion, except those that didn't respond to my
>invitation (due principally to mailboxes overflowing with Swen
>messages).
Shame that Iwasaki-san's own name isn't on the list, but given the
near-legendary consistency of Japanese phonetics, I suppose there's less actual
need for it than for some of the others....
Would have have liked to have seen the pronunciation of Padraig's name
documented in an accessible place, though....r
Dena Jo
> Would have have liked to have seen the pronunciation of Padraig's
> name documented in an accessible place, though....r
I would like to *hear* it.
BTW, good job, Mike! Now, having said that, how much trouble would it
be to put a sound icon on the full picture page which people could
click on and hear the associated .wav file? And can someone tell me
what equipment and applet (presumably) I would need to make a recording
of "Dena Jo... but you can call me dollface."
--
Dena Jo
Kidding...
(Email: Replace TPUBGTH with denajo2)
Richard Maurer
BTW, good job, Mike! Now, having said that, how much trouble would it
be to put a sound icon on the full picture page which people could
click on and hear the associated .wav file? And can someone tell me
what equipment and applet (presumably) I would need to make a recording
of "Dena Jo... but you can call me dollface."
You can get by with buying or borrowing a 5$ microphone.
Then use
StartMenu->Program->Accessories->Multimedia->Sound Recorder
(or similar, depending upon OS version) to make the file.
-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Barnes
>On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 16:24:16 +0100 The aue webmaster <october2003@mikeba
>rnes.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>} Mike Barnes
>
>What I want to know is whether Mr. Barnes _expects_ people to pronounce
>his name "BAHNS", rather than "BARNS", or does he just not care.
That depends on the people. I'd expect (typically) English people to
pronounce it "BAHNZ" and (typically) American people to pronounce it
"BARNZ".
Happy now?
What actually happens is that I say "MIKE BAHNZ" to an American and they
think I'm an Australian called "MARK BONDS".
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
Mike Barnes
Good points, both of them. I'm onto it. Them.
Edward
> There's a new page on the alt-usage-english site, showing the
> pronunciation of some regular contributors' names.
>
> http://alt-usage-english.org/audio_gallery/
>
The only person whose name I see regularly which I baulk at is Padraig
Breathnach. I do recall seeing a pronunciation guide somewhere but
can't be bothered to google it as I quite like mentally pronouncing it
phonetically - Pad-rayg Breath-natch. Of course, if ever I were to
meet the esteemed gentleman, I should be careful to establish how it
should be sonically pronounced.
Edward
--
The reading group's reading group:
http://www.bookgroup.org.uk
Mike Barnes
>how much trouble would it
>be to put a sound icon on the full picture page which people could
>click on and hear the associated .wav file?
Currently there's a "pronunciation" link on the relevant picture pages -
not quite the same thing, but close.
>And can someone tell me
>what equipment and applet (presumably) I would need to make a recording
>of "Dena Jo... but you can call me dollface."
I see you use a PC, so an inexpensive microphone should be all you need.
The "Sound Recorder" app is there as part of Windows. Having said that,
I've tried a couple of microphones on a couple of PCs and every
recording sounds like a voice coming through a brick wall. Good luck!
Charles Riggs
<tony_co...@mungedyahoo.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 19:54:27 -0700, "Skitt" <ski...@comcast.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Tony Cooper wrote:
>>
>>> Lord love a duck! Will you be forgetting how to pronounce "Michael
>>> West" and get on with posting Charles Rigg's photograph!
>>
>>Obviously, you haven't looked. It's there.
>
>So it is. There should have been fanfare or at least a rattle of
>snare drums. Surprisingly ordinary looking, isn't he?
...rather than being bog ugly like yourself. "Charles" means, in fact,
man of the people so it shouldn't be surprising I, unlike you, don't
look like the south end of a north-pointing horse.
--
Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggsŚatŚeircomŚdotŚnet
Dena Jo
> Surprisingly ordinary looking, isn't he?
You think so? I thought he looked quite distinguished, just lacking a
woman's touch.
--
Dena Jo
Tony Cooper
<TPUBGTH.don't.use.this...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 09 Oct 2003, Tony Cooper posted thus:
>
>> Surprisingly ordinary looking, isn't he?
>
>You think so? I thought he looked quite distinguished, just lacking a
>woman's touch.
I question that "ordinary looking" can be construed as derogatory in
any way. He has the requisite number of ears, eyes, and other visible
external parts, no tail or horns in evidence, and seems quite kempt.
I rather like his tie, too.
Simon R. Hughes
> On 09 Oct 2003, Tony Cooper posted thus:
>
> > Surprisingly ordinary looking, isn't he?
>
> You think so? I thought he looked quite distinguished, just lacking a
> woman's touch.
How do you know that? The picture was only of his face.
--
Simon R. Hughes <!-- Note correct email address. -->
<!-- Trust me; I'm a native speaker. -->
<!-- Trust me, I'm a native speaker. -->
sage
"Edward" <teddy...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:25080b60.03101...@posting.google.com...
In Ballykissangel, the first name (of the character who ran the garage?)
always sounded like "Porayg" but I could be wrong.
Cheers, Sage
Tony Cooper
Porrig. (Cue Simon for his version)
Tony Cooper
<a57998.remo...@yahoo.no> wrote:
>Thus spake Dena Jo:
>> On 09 Oct 2003, Tony Cooper posted thus:
>>
>> > Surprisingly ordinary looking, isn't he?
>>
>> You think so? I thought he looked quite distinguished, just lacking a
>> woman's touch.
>
>How do you know that? The picture was only of his face.
Participate in the magic of the href and view the entire upper torso.
Dena Jo
> How do you know that? The picture was only of his face.
No, it's from the waist, up. And a woman would have straightened the
tie before allowing someone to take the picture.
You guys are lost without us.
Dena Jo
> Currently there's a "pronunciation" link on the relevant picture
> pages - not quite the same thing, but close.
Not on mine...
--
Dena Jo
Padraig Breathnach
>You guys are lost without us.
And lost with you, too.
--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
Woody Wordpecker
> Tony Cooper wrote:
> > Lord love a duck! Will you be forgetting how to pronounce "Michael
> > West" and get on with posting Charles Rigg's photograph!
> Obviously, you haven't looked. It's there.
It's been there for years. See
http://www.alt-usage-english.org/totally_official/251.jpg .
CyberCypher
day
> Dena Jo <TPUBGTH.don't.use.this...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>You guys are lost without us.
Durkheim said that in a nice little essay in 1900, I think it was.
> And lost with you, too.
Too true. I'm waiting for humans to evolve to the hermaphroditic
stage. Then we won't ever be lost again.
Mike Barnes
>
>> Currently there's a "pronunciation" link on the relevant picture
>> pages - not quite the same thing, but close.
>
>Not on mine...
Well, on all the relevant picture pages except one. Still pretty close.
Actually it was *in* your picture page if not *on* your picture page -
it was in the file but not where any browser would display it. Now fixed
- sorry.
The aue webmaster
Franke
Padraig Breathnach
Comments on my ASCII IPA are welcome, for those and other names.
Dena Jo
> it was in the file but not where any browser would display it. Now fixed
> - sorry.
Thank you!
Jerry Friedman
...
Hey Charles, how many syllables in your first name? The informal
version seems to suggest that there are two, since the final "ls"
isn't capitalized, but the ASCII IPA shows only one. Or was your
informal version meant to suggest that your name is 1.5 syllables?
If it were relevant, I'd point out that I pronounce your name in two
syllables, ['tSA:r-lz].
--
['dZE:ri fri:dm@n]
The aue webmaster
>Hey Charles, how many syllables in your first name? The informal
>version seems to suggest that there are two, since the final "ls"
>isn't capitalized, but the ASCII IPA shows only one. Or was your
>informal version meant to suggest that your name is 1.5 syllables?
Actually it was me that wrote those. Charles simply shrugged at the
informal version and said "I guess so". For the ASCII IPA he shrugged
and said "I dunno". So any problems are of my making rather than
Charles's.
I don't go in for syllable-counting myself, especially when we get down
to decimal precision, so I find it hard to answer your questions as
posed. And I'm barely literate ASCII-IPA-wise.
>If it were relevant, I'd point out that I pronounce your name in two
>syllables, ['tSA:r-lz].
You did, so it must be. :-)
['tSA:r-lz] looks good to me, from what I remember of Charles' voice.
Informally, CHAR-lz looks better than what I've got now.
Any objections?
Evan Kirshenbaum
Not ['tSA:r l-z]?
By the way, the calling test can be used to determine the number of
syllables. If you have two, you call "Oh, [tSA: r@lz]" (or something
similar). If you have one, you call "Oh, [tSA: Arlz]". If the pitch
falls within the vowel, you have one.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |If a bus station is where a bus
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |stops, and a train station is where
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |a train stops, what does that say
|about a workstation?
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
rzed
> jerry_f...@yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) writes:
>
>> Charles Riggs <No...@aircom.net> wrote in message
>> news:<vk9dovg4s7tjiv97d...@4ax.com>... ...
>>
>> Hey Charles, how many syllables in your first name? The informal
>> version seems to suggest that there are two, since the final "ls"
>> isn't capitalized, but the ASCII IPA shows only one. Or was your
>> informal version meant to suggest that your name is 1.5 syllables?
>>
>> If it were relevant, I'd point out that I pronounce your name in
>> two syllables, ['tSA:r-lz].
>
> Not ['tSA:r l-z]?
>
> By the way, the calling test can be used to determine the number of
> syllables. If you have two, you call "Oh, [tSA: r@lz]" (or
> something similar). If you have one, you call "Oh, [tSA: Arlz]".
> If the pitch falls within the vowel, you have one.
My coworkers have asked me to stop muttering "Charles" over and over.
I'd best not start calling it out loud. It's hard to pronounce in one
syllable for a rhotic speaker, I think, without winding up sounding
like Tom Brokaw.
--
rzed
Dena Jo
> Dena Jo <TPUBGTH.don't.use.this...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> You guys are lost without us.
>>
>
> Is this a crack about asking directions?
Works for me.
Aaron J. Dinkin
> But the 'People call me "Bob"' segment of Mr. Cunningham's recording at
> the above URL has a near-perfect "aw" and "ah" that could easily become
> the alt.usage.english standard for "aw" and "ah". Listen for the
> excellent "PEEP-l CAWL mee BAHB" in that recording.
My ears can't detect any difference between the vowels of Bob's "call"
and "Bob". I don't (yet) have formant-analysis software on my computer,
so without knowing whether the vowels actually are objectively different,
I can think of two explanations:
(a) The vowels in Bob's "Bob" and "call" actually are the same, and
you're just hearing what you expect to hear.
(b) The vowels in Bob's "Bob" and "call" are different (although not
phonemically so), and I can't hear the difference because I don't
distinguish those two vowels either. I don't think it would be remarkable
for Bob to have different sounds in those two words; in American English
a following /l/ often has a strong backing effect on vowels that precede
it. In many American dialects, /u/ and /o/ are so far fronted as to be
more central vowels than back vowels[1], but before /l/ they remain fully
back [u] and [oU].
[1] Or more specifically, they're diphthongs with a central nucleus and
back offglide.
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Dr Robin Bignall
<TPUBGTH.don't.use.this...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 10 Oct 2003, Murray Arnow posted thus:
>
>> Dena Jo <TPUBGTH.don't.use.this...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> You guys are lost without us.
>>>
>>
>> Is this a crack about asking directions?
>
>Works for me.
Everybody works for you, Deej.
--
wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall
Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England
Aaron J. Dinkin
> My coworkers have asked me to stop muttering "Charles" over and over.
> I'd best not start calling it out loud. It's hard to pronounce in one
> syllable for a rhotic speaker, I think, without winding up sounding
> like Tom Brokaw.
There's nothing either monosyllabic or disyllabic but thinking makes it
so. That is to say, when you've got a bunch of vocoids (=vowels or
semivowels) and liquids together, whether or not they form separate
syllables or one heavy syllable has more to do, I think, with the way such
a pronunciation patterns in your dialect than the actual acoustic form of
the word. This is especially true in English, which is a stress-timed
language - i.e., having more or fewer syllables doesn't actually make a
word take more or less time to say. I have "Charles" as one syllable, but
I wouldn't be surprised if my pronunciation of "Charles" is only trivially
different from yours. It's how we'd fit it into poetry, or how it appears
in Evan's calling-out-loud test, that counts the number of syllables.
John Varela
<TPUBGTH.don't.use.this...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 10 Oct 2003, Simon R. Hughes posted thus:
>
> > How do you know that? The picture was only of his face.
>
> No, it's from the waist, up. And a woman would have straightened the
> tie before allowing someone to take the picture.
I have chided my wife more than once for not telling me my tie was crooked
before a photo was taken.
> You guys are lost without us.
All together now;
A man, without a woman...
--
John Varela
(Change "old" to "new" for email.)
I apologize for munging the address but the spam is too much.
R J Valentine
} On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 04:30:34 -0000, R J Valentine <r...@smart.net> wrote:
}
}> But the 'People call me "Bob"' segment of Mr. Cunningham's recording at
}> the above URL has a near-perfect "aw" and "ah" that could easily become
}> the alt.usage.english standard for "aw" and "ah". Listen for the
}> excellent "PEEP-l CAWL mee BAHB" in that recording.
}
} My ears can't detect any difference between the vowels of Bob's "call"
} and "Bob". I don't (yet) have formant-analysis software on my computer,
} so without knowing whether the vowels actually are objectively different,
You mean that someone with formant-analysis software (and the skills to
use it, I might add (I have actually downloaded new versions of Praat as
they were announced, but I've been so dazzled by Mr. Cunningham's skills
with it that I never actually cranked it up)) could objectively determine
whether there is a difference between the "aw" in Mr. Cunningham's "call"
and the "ah" in his "Bob" (in that recording, of course; I heard no
differences between aw's and ah's in the "hot coffee" recording)?
} I can think of two explanations:
}
} (a) The vowels in Bob's "Bob" and "call" actually are the same, and
} you're just hearing what you expect to hear.
Could be. I am notorious for having a tin ear, and I have admitted to
hearing Rey's "Reinhold" differently on different occasions.
} (b) The vowels in Bob's "Bob" and "call" are different (although not
} phonemically so), and I can't hear the difference because I don't
} distinguish those two vowels either. I don't think it would be remarkable
} for Bob to have different sounds in those two words; in American English
} a following /l/ often has a strong backing effect on vowels that precede
} it. In many American dialects, /u/ and /o/ are so far fronted as to be
} more central vowels than back vowels[1], but before /l/ they remain fully
} back [u] and [oU].
It is remarkable for me only in that his "call" "aw" seemed so
_unremarkable_ and his "Bob" "ah" seemed so _unremarkable_, when I had
previously remarked on the similarity of Mr. Cunningham's aw's and ah's.
I should probably mention that I am no stranger to the great variety of
ways of pronouncing "Bob". In the recording being discussed (where _did_
that URL go?), Mr. Cunningham has achieved the Great American "Bob".
Going from my own personal expectations, a mild [bA:b] would have left it
unremarkedupon. This was, what, [bA":b] ("BAHB" (BrE: "BARB"?))? I'd
actually like to see an ASCII IPA representation using "a", as in [ba$:b],
where the "$" is replaced with some *other* character that represents
whatever squeeze has to be applied to move [a:] over to "ah" the way I
seem to recall '"' makes [A:] have less "aw" to it. Where's a real
phoneticist when you need him or her.
} [1] Or more specifically, they're diphthongs with a central nucleus and
} back offglide.
I get tingles just reading this kind of stuff.
--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:peoplec...@wicked.smart.net>
Maria Conlon
> } [1] Or more specifically, they're diphthongs with a central nucleus
> and } back offglide.
>
> I get tingles just reading this kind of stuff.
It's that mention of "diphthongs." It reminds you of "thongs," doesn't
it?
Maria Conlon
Charles Riggs
Friedman) wrote:
>Charles Riggs <No...@aircom.net> wrote in message news:<vk9dovg4s7tjiv97d...@4ax.com>...
>...
>
>Hey Charles, how many syllables in your first name? The informal
>version seems to suggest that there are two, since the final "ls"
>isn't capitalized, but the ASCII IPA shows only one. Or was your
>informal version meant to suggest that your name is 1.5 syllables?
Mike's version, not mine, since I can't do phonetics and I generally
screw up an informal spelling approximation to a pronunciation. I
claim actual sound is the only way to go for us mere mortals not
expert in funny symbols, if it is even true they can represent all the
subtleties of a sound.
Anyway, yes, my name contains roughly two syllables and is pronounced
in the ordinary way.
>If it were relevant, I'd point out that I pronounce your name in two
>syllables, ['tSA:r-lz].
That's Greek to me, but I doubt if any American would mispronounce my
name so you probably have it. The French, of course, pronounce it
differently, as in Charles de Gaulle.
--
Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggsŚatŚeircomŚdotŚnet
Charles Riggs
It is my favourite tie and one I bought particularly for the suit.
Dena may not like it, but what do women know about matching men's
clothes? especially when "matching" can mean "contrasting" or picking
a colour or pattern that appeals to the artistic eye of man for any of
a number of reasons.
Charles Riggs
<TPUBGTH.don't.use.this...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 10 Oct 2003, Simon R. Hughes posted thus:
>
>> How do you know that? The picture was only of his face.
>
>No, it's from the waist, up. And a woman would have straightened the
>tie before allowing someone to take the picture.
A man would have straightened out that second comma of yours by
removing it!
>You guys are lost without us.
We like to give you girls that impression. That way you'll be more of
a mind to put out for us.
Charles Riggs
<octob...@mikebarnes.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>In alt.usage.english, Dena Jo wrote:
>>how much trouble would it
>>be to put a sound icon on the full picture page which people could
>>click on and hear the associated .wav file?
>
>Currently there's a "pronunciation" link on the relevant picture pages -
>not quite the same thing, but close.
>
>>And can someone tell me
>>what equipment and applet (presumably) I would need to make a recording
>>of "Dena Jo... but you can call me dollface."
>
>I see you use a PC, so an inexpensive microphone should be all you need.
>The "Sound Recorder" app is there as part of Windows. Having said that,
>I've tried a couple of microphones on a couple of PCs and every
>recording sounds like a voice coming through a brick wall. Good luck!
Yes. I sent Mike a file he couldn't get a sound from, the wall was so
thick. I'd send a better one, if I can manage it, but lost his
deciphered address.
rzed
"Aaron J. Dinkin" <din...@babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:bm7nc9$brka$3...@netnews.upenn.edu...
Oh, I agree that it's not as much as two syllables, but squeezing "charles"
into the space "chars" would occupy is a challenge, unless at the same time
I slip into a non-rhotic mode or otherwise swallow a portion of the sound.
The transition from 'r' to 'l' takes an observable moment of time.
--
rzed
Charles Riggs
<octob...@mikebarnes.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>In alt.usage.english, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>Hey Charles, how many syllables in your first name? The informal
>>version seems to suggest that there are two, since the final "ls"
>>isn't capitalized, but the ASCII IPA shows only one. Or was your
>>informal version meant to suggest that your name is 1.5 syllables?
>
>Actually it was me that wrote those. Charles simply shrugged at the
>informal version and said "I guess so". For the ASCII IPA he shrugged
>and said "I dunno". So any problems are of my making rather than
>Charles's.
How you know or why you think, from email, I'm shrugging, I don't
know. Why you misquote me, if you must quote private mail at all, I
also don't know, but I won't be goaded into an argument over it except
to say you demonstrate piss-poor form.
--
Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net
Mike Barnes
>jerry_f...@yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) writes:
>
>> Charles Riggs <No...@aircom.net> wrote in message
>> If it were relevant, I'd point out that I pronounce your name in two
>> syllables, ['tSA:r-lz].
>
>Not ['tSA:r l-z]?
>
>By the way, the calling test can be used to determine the number of
>syllables. If you have two, you call "Oh, [tSA: r@lz]" (or something
>similar). If you have one, you call "Oh, [tSA: Arlz]". If the pitch
>falls within the vowel, you have one.
The calling test sounds useful but I do have a problem with it. There
seems to be an assumption that there is a "number of syllables" that is
a feature of the word that is invariant between normal speech and
calling. ISTM that the word "Charles" could have a number of syllables
when I call it, and a number of syllables when I speak it normally, and
the two numbers are not necessarily the same.
Having said that I'm not *exactly* sure what a syllable is.
And I'm still interested in the definitive ASCII IPA for "Charles" with
a standard American accent (assuming there is such a thing).
Mike Barnes
My apologies. No offence intended.
J. W. Love
>And I'm still interested in the definitive ASCII IPA for
>"Charles" with a standard American accent (assuming
>there is such a thing).
For most Americans, it's probably [tSArlz]. Much of the supposed length of the
[A] resides in the [rl]. Compare [tSArlz] with [tSArts]: substituting [ts] for
[lz] shortens the whole.
R F
Why not just use AmE phonemes? /tSArlz/ works for any rhotic AmE accent,
would it not? Sure, some have trouble not adding something quasi-vocalic
in making out that /rl/ thing. Cf. "Quarles".
Maria Conlon
[...]
> And I'm still interested in the definitive ASCII IPA for "Charles"
> with a standard American accent (assuming there is such a thing).
As RF would say, I don't know from ASCII IPA, but I've got a standard
American accent (I think; assuming there is such a thing), and the name
"Charles" is two syllables when I say it. Or, at the very least, one and
seven eighths.
Sort of like: CHAR-@ls. The "@" is brief, rather like the "@" in
MIKE-@l. In both cases, the "@" would not be represented by "uh."
Does that help at all?
Maria Conlon
R F
If you were cooking supper for Charles and Charles was playing outside
with his friend Tony Cooper from around the corner, and you wanted to call
Charles to let him know that supper was ready, would you call out
"CHAAA-AAARLZ" or would you call out "CHARRRRR-ULLZ"?
Dena Jo
> If you were cooking supper for Charles and Charles was playing
> outside with his friend Tony Cooper from around the corner, and
> you wanted to call Charles to let him know that supper was ready,
> would you call out "CHAAA-AAARLZ" or would you call out
> "CHARRRRR-ULLZ"?
I would quietly say "Dominoes," and they and all their little friends
would come running.
Actually, I would call out "CHAAA-AAARLZ." But calling out is
inconclusive as the effect it has is frequently to turn a one-syllable
word into two.
To my ears, "Charles" is a one syllable word, albeit a somewhat
protracted syllable.
I've only been skimming this part of the thread, so I don't actually
know what side of the debate you're on here. When I see ASCII IPA, my
eyes tend to glass over and my brain immediately fogs up.
Woody Wordpecker
<din...@babel.ling.upenn.edu> said:
[ . . . ]
> My ears can't detect any difference between the vowels of Bob's "call"
> and "Bob". I don't (yet) have formant-analysis software on my computer,
> so without knowing whether the vowels actually are objectively different,
> I can think of two explanations:
In the file we're talking about, my octogenarian voice
apparently acted up a bit during the pronunciation of
"call". It caused the vowel to start quite highward and
frontward, then glide to the [A] position where I would
expect to find it.
I've made a new recording. You can hear it at
http://tinyurl.com/qkt0 . Tinyurlophobes can hear it at
http://www.exw6sxq.com/sparky/aue_related/speech_examples/my_name.mp3
. `
Formant analysis appears to show that the vowels in "call"
and "Bob" in the new recording -- and in the old recording
after the vowel in "call" settles down -- are both well
within the region of the vowel parallelogram corresponding
to the vowel [A].
The vowel in "call" is a little higher than the vowel in
"Bob". It also appears to be a little farther back. I will
know for sure if I ever get around to extracting the
numerical values of the formants.
There apparently is an occasional slight tendency toward
rounding of my vowel in "call". I've experimented with a
mirror and found that among several repetitions of "call",
rounding varies from none at all to a slight amount.
Rounding causes a vowel to move back on the vowel chart.
This is why Ladefoged tells us not to think of front and
back on the vowel chart as being strictly related to tongue
position.
> (a) The vowels in Bob's "Bob" and "call" actually are the same, and
> you're just hearing what you expect to hear.
> (b) The vowels in Bob's "Bob" and "call" are different (although not
> phonemically so), and I can't hear the difference because I don't
> distinguish those two vowels either. I don't think it would be remarkable
> for Bob to have different sounds in those two words; in American English
> a following /l/ often has a strong backing effect on vowels that precede
> it. In many American dialects, /u/ and /o/ are so far fronted as to be
> more central vowels than back vowels[1], but before /l/ they remain fully
> back [u] and [oU].
I don't think I would notice any difference between my
vowels in "call" and "Bob", even when "call" has a little
rounding. But I have found from experience that, unless I'm
alerted, I even perceive Markus Laker's [A.] and [A] as the
same sound. When I'm listening for the difference, I can
hear it clearly. His [A.] is greatly more rounded than my
vowel in "call".
> [1] Or more specifically, they're diphthongs with a central nucleus and
> back offglide.
Formant analysis of the speech of various people has shown
that just about every vowel they utter has a noticeable
amount of glide. The glide is in general context dependent.
See, for example see http://tinyurl.com/qkw3 , or -- for
TUPs --
http://www.exw6sxq.com/sparky/aue_related/formants/bc_boo_thru_zoo_formants.gif
. `
R F
On Sat, 11 Oct 2003, Woody Wordpecker wrote:
> Formant analysis appears to show that the vowels in "call"
> and "Bob" in the new recording -- and in the old recording
> after the vowel in "call" settles down -- are both well
> within the region of the vowel parallelogram corresponding
> to the vowel [A].
>
> The vowel in "call" is a little higher than the vowel in
> "Bob". It also appears to be a little farther back. I will
> know for sure if I ever get around to extracting the
> numerical values of the formants.
>
> There apparently is an occasional slight tendency toward
> rounding of my vowel in "call". I've experimented with a
> mirror and found that among several repetitions of "call",
> rounding varies from none at all to a slight amount.
Could it be that you've really been One of Us, a CINC, all along, and just
didn't know it?
We welcome you, Long-Lost Brother.
R F
I'm not taking sides here, but for me "Charles" is a one syllable word,
and I believe it's so no matter how you define syllable.
I knew someone with the surname "Quarles", and I think I said that as two
syllables, like "quarrels". (No one here thinks "quarrel" is a
one-syllable word, I hope.)
This all sounds sort of familiar.
Maria Conlon
If I were to call out in the circumstances you gave, I would yell
"CHARRR-RUH-uhllllz." That's an R short and a syllable longer than your
second version, but more like what my call-out would sound like. As
indicated, the third syllable would be the one on which my voiced
dropped.
I had to call out several times to figure out exactly how I do it. Three
kids in the neighborhood came over to tell me that Chuckie moved a year
ago. (Just kidding. Actually, what happened is that Charles called on
the phone to tell me I woke him up.) (Okay, just kidding there, too.)
As Dena Jo said, calling out can frequently turn a one-syllable word
into two syllables. Someone else said something similar earlier, I
think. It's very possible that calling out, for some of us, anyway, adds
an extra syllable to longer words/names.
My own name, called out, would be Muh-REEEE-UHH-uhhhh. I can hear it
now, in my head, just as it was when my friends would stand on the porch
or out on the sidewalk, calling for me to come out and play. Knocking on
the door was not something kids did back then. Regional? I don't know.
I'm talking about the late-1940s-early-1950s in Detroit (or Daytwa, if
you like).
Maria Conlon
R F
On Sat, 11 Oct 2003, Maria Conlon wrote:
> My own name, called out, would be Muh-REEEE-UHH-uhhhh. I can hear it
> now, in my head, just as it was when my friends would stand on the porch
> or out on the sidewalk, calling for me to come out and play. Knocking on
> the door was not something kids did back then. Regional? I don't know.
I dunno. I think back in my day doorbells were mainly used, but there
would have been some situations where it would be more effective to
actually call out the name of the person presumed to be inside. What I
don't remember much of is actual knocking on doors, unless maybe for
some reason someone didn't have a doorbell.
> I'm talking about the late-1940s-early-1950s in Detroit (or Daytwa, if
> you like).
Were people still using the French pronunciation that late? How 'bout for
Grosse Pointe -- does anyone ever say "Ggghoss Pwahnt" (besides me)?
What ever happened with that "Eastpointe" campaign, BTW?
Evan Kirshenbaum
> On 11 Oct 2003, R F posted thus:
>
> > If you were cooking supper for Charles and Charles was playing
> > outside with his friend Tony Cooper from around the corner, and
> > you wanted to call Charles to let him know that supper was ready,
> > would you call out "CHAAA-AAARLZ" or would you call out
> > "CHARRRRR-ULLZ"?
>
> Actually, I would call out "CHAAA-AAARLZ." But calling out is
> inconclusive as the effect it has is frequently to turn a one-syllable
> word into two.
Actually, that's exactly the point. You *have* have at least one
syllable past the one that carries stress when calling, so if the word
ends on the stressed syllable (and a special case of this is when
there's only one syllable), you automatically repeat the vowel. (Or,
in the case of a diphthong, you use the first element before the break
and the entire diphthong after.) So the fact that you call
"CHAAA-AAARLZ" rather than "CHAAARR-ULLZ" shows that you consider the
word to have one syllable.
> To my ears, "Charles" is a one syllable word, albeit a somewhat
> protracted syllable.
Exactly. I have it as two syllables and go the other way when
calling.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |A handgun is like a Lawyer. You
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |don't want it lying around where
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |the children might be exposed to
|it, but when you need one, you need
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |it RIGHT NOW, and nothing else will
(650)857-7572 |do.
| Bill McNutt
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
R F
On Sat, 11 Oct 2003, DE781 wrote:
> "I thought the man backstage had a speech impediment and that he was
> trying to say it is 'SONG' Week, but it came out as 'thong'
> instead."--Minnie Driver
>
> "Let me see that thong."--Sisqo
Yo Joey, you don't use the same vowel in "song" and "thong", do you? In
New York City English "song" is "caught" and "thong" is "cot". (Just
*why* that's so is unclear, BTWWSYATGS.)
Dena Jo
> thought better of this group's pronunciation skills. One name
> I've always been confused as to how to pronounce is "Lieblich".
> Is the "ch" pronounced like a "ch" usually is in English, or is it
> a hard C/K sound? I've always imagined the latter; Leah the
> former.
You are right; Leah, wrong. Oddly enough, we learned recently that
Lieblich's first name, Robert, is actually pronounced dik, with a short
i sound. There's just no rhyme nor reason to English pronunciation, is
there?
John Varela
> "John Varela" <jav...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<ZKRm3c4Ddl7U-p...@dialup-171.75.32.172.Dial1.Washington1.Level3.net>...
> > All together now;
> >
> > A man, without a woman...
>
> A man without a woman is like a fish without a bicycle!
I think we did this not too long ago, but the song as I learned it goes:
A man without a woman
Is like a ship without a sail,
Is like a boat without a rudder.
Is like a kite without a tail.
A man without a woman
Is like a wreck upon the strand,
But if there's one thing worse
In this universe
It's a woman (I said a woman!)
It's a woman without a man!
You can throw a silver dollar on the barroom floor
And it'll ro-o-oll because it's rou-ou-ound.
A woman doesn't know what a good man she's got
Until she turns him down.
So listen, my honey, listen to me
I want you to understand:
As a silver dollar goes from hand to hand
So a woman goes from man to man.
--
John Varela
(Trade "OLD" lamps for "NEW" for email.)
I apologize for munging the address but the spam is too much.
Woody Wordpecker
I *may* sometimes have a *little* rounding of my vowel in
"call", but not enough to say the vowel is not [A].
If the CINC Club admits members on no more substantial
qualifications than that, I don't want to be a member.
Thanks, anyway.
R J Valentine
} I *may* sometimes have a *little* rounding of my vowel in
} "call", but not enough to say the vowel is not [A].
It's not that it's not an [A], but rather that the phoneticist's [A] is
mighty close to "aw". I'm guessing that that particular "call" was
influenced a little by being preceded by "people", which leaves the mouth
in a sort of rounded position. Contrast it, for instance, with 'Cats call
me "Bob"." Still and all, it's not the "call" that's remarkable except as
a ruler to measure the "Bob" by. It's already been demonstrated that Mr.
Cunningham's "hot coffee" vowel is the perfect merged or British [A],
which is half way between "aw" and "ah". That the "call" "aw" is slightly
on the "aw" side of [A] is only slightly surprising to me. The _real_
surprising thing is that the "Bob" "a" is not at all rounded in the
original AUE gallery recording, and not much different in the new one.
It's mighty near perfect for an "ah". I suggest that it would be shown
different from the "hot coffee" vowels by formant analysis.
} If the CINC Club admits members on no more substantial
} qualifications than that, I don't want to be a member.
Oh, now, you're being modest. Heck, the "Sparky" vowel was exemplary,
too.
} Thanks, anyway.
That Prof. F, when he's right, he's right. How about a recording of "Bob
brought a pot of water." The "hot coffee" script may just be too biased.
A phoneticist on the lookout for a paper topic could do worse than
"Persistence of Rounding: a Utah phenomenon or not?"
--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:r...@smart.net>
(Say it out loud.)
Maria Conlon
> Maria Conlon wrote:
>> I'm talking about the late-1940s-early-1950s in Detroit (or Daytwa,
>> if you like).
>
> Were people still using the French pronunciation that late?
I sincerely doubt it. Only someone who was French (or French Canadian)
would have said it that way in those years, I think. But for a long time
now -- say, since the the mid-70s -- I've heard a few radio
personalities use "Daytwa" once in a while. It's just a "bit."
>......How
> 'bout for Grosse Pointe -- does anyone ever say "Ggghoss Pwahnt"
> (besides me)?
I can't even imagine how that would sound, so I guess the answer is No.
"Bois blanc" (spelling?) is pronounced Boblo, however -- for both the
island somewhere north of here and the former amusement park island near
Detroit. The amusement park was actually spelled Boblo. One took the
Boblo Boat (there were two of them) to go to Boblo for the day.
>
> What ever happened with that "Eastpointe" campaign, BTW?
That is the official shopping-center-like name of the city formerly
known as East Detroit. As I've mentioned before, the name was changed
apparently because the residents didn't like being associated with
Detroit. So the joke that made the rounds then was that Detroit was
going to change its name to Pointe.
Maria Conlon
Aaron J. Dinkin
> Oh, I agree that it's not as much as two syllables, but squeezing "charles"
> into the space "chars" would occupy is a challenge, unless at the same time
> I slip into a non-rhotic mode or otherwise swallow a portion of the sound.
> The transition from 'r' to 'l' takes an observable moment of time.
But there's no requirement that all syllables take the same amount of
time. I have "Charles" as a single syllable, and I certainly grant that
it's a very long syllable. But what makes it a single syllable is how it
reacts to Evan's calling-out-loud test, for instance, or the fact that
"Then Charles was out wandering far from his home" seems to me to have a
pure dactylic rhythm while "the squirrels were out wandering far from
their home" does not.
My roommate in college once wrote a song (for a musical comedy) that
included the ostensibly dactylic lyrics (with caps for stressed
syllables):
: My DARling ChriSTENE,
: of all GIRls I've SEEN,
: you're three STANdard errors OVer the MEAN.
And to me it never scanned satisfactorily, since to me "girls" is one
syllable and "errors" is two. But I bet my pronunciations of at least
"girls" and maybe "errors" as well would not be noticeably different from
him.
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Charles Riggs
Sound. None taken.
--
Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggsŚatŚeircomŚdotŚnet
Charles Riggs
wrote:
I don't respond to hog calls. If someone wants to invite me to dinner,
they will speak in a normal tone. By the way, I don't do "supper".
Your little buddy might, some of my tree-felling friends in Bangor
did, but I do not.
Charles Riggs
wrote:
>I'm not taking sides here, but for me "Charles" is a one syllable word,
>and I believe it's so no matter how you define syllable.
Thinking more about it, I see you're right. I don't see a reasonable
way of separating it into two, no matter how it's pronounced.
Mike Barnes
>My own name, called out, would be Muh-REEEE-UHH-uhhhh.
I've just met a girl named Muh-REEEE-UHH-uhhhh...
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
J. W. Love
>My roommate in college once wrote a song (for a musical
>comedy) that included the ostensibly dactylic lyrics (with
>caps for stressed syllables):
>
>: My DARling ChriSTENE,
>: of all GIRls I've SEEN,
>: you're three STANdard errors OVer the MEAN.
>
>And to me it never scanned satisfactorily.
Easily fixed:
My DARling ChriSTENE,
Of GIRls that I've SEEN,
You're THREE sigmas OVer the MEAN.
>To me[,] "girls" is one syllable
Yes, albeit an exceptionally heavy one.
>and "errors" is two.
Yes, but its problem in the original version is that it's too heavy for its
metrical slot, even if we hear it as one syllable.
>But I bet my pronunciations of at least "girls" and maybe
>"errors" as well would not be noticeably different from him.
Oy!
Btw, the original lines 2 & 3 are anapaestic, not dactylic. To call all three
lines dactylic, you have to bend the ideal drastically at both ends (a singly
or doubly upbeat start, plus a doubly reduced finish); but to call them
amphibrachs, you need bend the ideal only at the finish. In the fixed version,
the meter of the whole is unarguably amphibrachic catalectic.
J. W. Love
>My roommate in college once wrote a song (for a musical
>comedy) that included the ostensibly dactylic lyrics (with
>caps for stressed syllables):
>
>: My DARling ChriSTENE,
>: of all GIRls I've SEEN,
>: you're three STANdard errors OVer the MEAN.
>
>And to me it never scanned satisfactorily.
Easily fixed:
My DARling ChriSTENE,
Of GIRLS that I've SEEN,
You're THREE sigmas OVer the MEAN.
>To me[,] "girls" is one syllable
Yes, albeit an exceptionally long one.
>and "errors" is two.
Yes, but its problem in the original version is that it's too long for its
metrical slot, even if we hear it as one syllable.
>But I bet my pronunciations of at least "girls" and maybe
>"errors" as well would not be noticeably different from him.
Oy!
Btw, the original lines 2 & 3 are anapaestic, not dactylic. To call all three
lines dactylic, you have to bend the ideal drastically at both ends: with an
extrametrical singly or doubly upbeat start, plus a doubly reduced finish. So
why not bend the ideal only at the finish, and only a little, and call the feet
amphibrachs? In the fixed version, the meter of the whole is unarguably
amphibrachic catalectic.
Dr Robin Bignall
wrote:
>On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 15:17:29 -0400, R F
><rfon...@mail.wesleyan.edu> said:
>
>> On Sat, 11 Oct 2003, Woody Wordpecker wrote:
>
>> > Formant analysis appears to show that the vowels in "call"
>> > and "Bob" in the new recording -- and in the old recording
>> > after the vowel in "call" settles down -- are both well
>> > within the region of the vowel parallelogram corresponding
>> > to the vowel [A].
>
>> > The vowel in "call" is a little higher than the vowel in
>> > "Bob". It also appears to be a little farther back. I will
>> > know for sure if I ever get around to extracting the
>> > numerical values of the formants.
>
>> > There apparently is an occasional slight tendency toward
>> > rounding of my vowel in "call". I've experimented with a
>> > mirror and found that among several repetitions of "call",
>> > rounding varies from none at all to a slight amount.
>
>> Could it be that you've really been One of Us, a CINC, all along, and just
>> didn't know it?
>
>> We welcome you, Long-Lost Brother.
>
>I *may* sometimes have a *little* rounding of my vowel in
>"call", but not enough to say the vowel is not [A].
>
No matter what they say, Bob, I heard and understood every vowel much more
clearly than some I've heard from around Texas and Louisiana.
It was a CINCh.
--
wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall
Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England
Aaron J. Dinkin
> &r@n wrote:
>
>>My roommate in college once wrote a song (for a musical
>>comedy) that included the ostensibly dactylic lyrics (with
>>caps for stressed syllables):
>>
>>: My DARling ChriSTENE,
>>: of all GIRls I've SEEN,
>>: you're three STANdard errors OVer the MEAN.
>>
>>And to me it never scanned satisfactorily.
>
> Easily fixed:
>
> My DARling ChriSTENE,
> Of GIRls that I've SEEN,
> You're THREE sigmas OVer the MEAN.
This loses two syllables; in the original there are two unstressed
syllables between each pair of stresses. This may not be very important,
however, since I'm not sure the same is true in the analogous places in
other verses of the same song. [Research:] No, it's not; in the third
verse, for example, there is
: ChrisTENE,
: I'LL interVENE
: so you're NO longer CAUGHT in beTWEEN.
with no weak syllables between "Christene" and the next line.
I don't think "of GIRLS that I've SEEN" flows well anyway; I always
thought it should be "of all GIRLS that I've SEEN".
>>To me[,] "girls" is one syllable
>
> Yes, albeit an exceptionally heavy one.
Heavier then "feels"?
(Then again, he also used "feel" as two syllables where it suited his
purpose, too, though not everywhere. In one song, the lines "i JUST can't
FEel inSPIRED" and "i FEEL so HAPpy inSIDE" are in corresponding places
in different verses.
>>and "errors" is two.
>
> Yes, but its problem in the original version is that it's too heavy for its
> metrical slot, even if we hear it as one syllable.
Even if your pronounce it the same as "airs"? "Airs" isn't that heavy, is it?
Anyway, the rhythm in that part of the song is in (quarter-note) triplets;
all syllables get the same amount of time regardless of stress. Does that
have an effect on being too heavy for one's metrical slot?
> Btw, the original lines 2 & 3 are anapaestic, not dactylic. To call all
> three lines dactylic, you have to bend the ideal drastically at both
> ends (a singly or doubly upbeat start, plus a doubly reduced finish);
> but to call them amphibrachs, you need bend the ideal only at the
> finish. In the fixed version, the meter of the whole is unarguably
> amphibrachic catalectic.
I was using the extended sense of "dactylic", i.e., 'having two
unstressed syllables between every pair of stresses (regardless of where
the lines start and end)'.
Aaron J. Dinkin
> On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 15:21:28 -0400, R F <rfon...@mail.wesleyan.edu>
> wrote:
>
>>I'm not taking sides here, but for me "Charles" is a one syllable word,
>>and I believe it's so no matter how you define syllable.
>
> Thinking more about it, I see you're right. I don't see a reasonable
> way of separating it into two, no matter how it's pronounced.
Well, both "CHA-rles" and "CHAR-les" are possibilities. In either case
there'd be no vowel in the second syllable; its nucleus is a syllabic
[L]. There's nothing wrong with this per se; the same is true of the
nucleus of the second syllables of, say, "riddles", and no one makes a
fuss about it.
I say "Charles" with one syllable, anyway.
Jerry Friedman
> jerry_f...@yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) writes:
>
> > Charles Riggs <No...@aircom.net> wrote in message
> > news:<vk9dovg4s7tjiv97d...@4ax.com>... ...
> >
> > Hey Charles, how many syllables in your first name? The informal
> > version seems to suggest that there are two, since the final "ls"
> > isn't capitalized, but the ASCII IPA shows only one. Or was your
> > informal version meant to suggest that your name is 1.5 syllables?
> >
> > syllables, ['tSA:r-lz].
>
> Not ['tSA:r l-z]?
Right. That's what I meant, only I was trying to leave the syllable
break ambiguous (but I misplaced the hyphen through mere
forgetfulness).
> By the way, the calling test can be used to determine the number of
> syllables. If you have two, you call "Oh, [tSA: r@lz]" (or something
> similar). If you have one, you call "Oh, [tSA: Arlz]". If the pitch
> falls within the vowel, you have one.
Does the calling test also tell me whether I have a schwa or a
syllabic l?
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
> On Sat, 11 Oct 2003, Mike Barnes wrote:
...
> > And I'm still interested in the definitive ASCII IPA for "Charles" with
> > a standard American accent (assuming there is such a thing).
>
> Why not just use AmE phonemes? /tSArlz/ works for any rhotic AmE accent,
> would it not?
...
I don't think that works for those of us who pronounce it in two
syllables. You've got to have an accent mark, haven't you? There may
be no standard pronunciation. But I guess that gallery consists of
people's own pronunciations (like [bA:nz], which is why I used
['dZE:ri]), so the question will be settled if Charles answers it.
By the way, why doesn't /tSArlz/ work for non-rhotic accents?
Non-rhotic speakers realize /r/ before a consonant as [:] or [] or
something, right?
--
Jerry Friedman
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Does the calling test also tell me whether I have a schwa or a
> syllabic l?
I don't believe so.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Those who study history are doomed
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |to watch others repeat it.
Palo Alto, CA 94304
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Aaron J. Dinkin
> By the way, why doesn't /tSArlz/ work for non-rhotic accents?
> Non-rhotic speakers realize /r/ before a consonant as [:] or [] or
> something, right?
That's a point of some debate among phonologists, actually - whether the
/r/ is underlyingly present in those dialects, and gets deleted; or
underlyingly absent, and gets inserted in linking-r environments. I think
one of the more frequently cited arguments in favor of the /r/ being
underlyingly present is the difference between "Homer" and "algebra": if
"Homer" is underlying /r/-less, then it's unexplained why we should get
an /r/ in "Homeric" but not in "algebraic".
I don't find this argument very compelling.
R F
On Mon, 13 Oct 2003, DE781 wrote:
> R F <rfon...@mail.wesleyan.edu> wrote in message news:<Pine.GSO.4.53.03...@alumni.wesleyan.edu>...
> > Yo Joey, you don't use the same vowel in "song" and "thong", do you? In
> > New York City English "song" is "caught" and "thong" is "cot". (Just
> > *why* that's so is unclear, BTWWSYATGS.)
>
> Well, Fontana, let's see if I've learned anything since coming to the
> AUE. If I've been understanding people here correctly, there's an
> "aw" sound and an "ah" sound that the short O and short A can make,
> depending on the word. I guess I use the "aw" vowel for "song" and
> the "ah" vowel (the "traditional" short O??) for "thong".
Me too.
> Minnie
> Driver, being a Brit, uses the "aw" for both of them, I guess.
I'd think she'd use some sort of British "short o" for both; it might
sound to you and me like an "aw", but it wouldn't be a British "aw".
> Do I speak "New York City" English if I pronounce "song" differently
> than "thong"?
Not necessarily, because there are other accents out there that similarly
treat "song" and "thong".
> And what's "BTWWSYATGS"?
"But that's why we're sending young Aaron to grad school", of course.
Dena Jo
> Lieblich isn't a dick. What a horrible thing to say.
And I never said he was. Don't be so quick to pounce.
--
Dena Jo, who numbers Bobert among her favorite posters
Woody Wordpecker
<docr...@ntlworld.com> said:
> On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 04:12:21 GMT, Woody Wordpecker <exw...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
[ . . . ]
> >I *may* sometimes have a *little* rounding of my vowel in
> >"call", but not enough to say the vowel is not [A].
> No matter what they say, Bob, I heard and understood every vowel much more
> clearly than some I've heard from around Texas and Louisiana.
> It was a CINCh.
Even people who are fully CINC are not entirely
ununderstandable. I can even understand what some people
from New York are saying if they say it slowly enough.
It's too bad we can't get the whole country speaking the
prestige variety of English that's spoken in Northern Utah
(NUPE).
You can hear a sample of this exemplary prestige English at
http://tinyurl.com/qt4u, (MP3, 243 kilobytes) ("qt4u" sounds
like "cutie for you", a pimp's sales pitch); and
http://tinyurl.com/qt57, (WAV, 1.343 megabytes); or, for
tinyurlophobes,
http://www.exw6sxq.com/sparky/aue_related/speech_examples/bc_arth2.mp3
http://www.exw6sxq.com/sparky/aue_related/speech_examples/bc_arth2.wav
The reader's attention is called to the honest clarity of
the vowels in that rendition. This is in contrast to the
weird, sneaky-sounding vowels spoken in the Eastern United
States, vowels that cause speakers of prestige English to
regard Eastern speakers with unease and wary suspicion.
R J Valentine
} On Mon, 13 Oct 2003, DE781 wrote:
...
}> And what's "BTWWSYATGS"?
}
} "But that's why we're sending young Aaron to grad school", of course.
Man! Doesn't *anyone* read the FAQ file anymore?
--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:ar...@wicked.smart.net>
(And who's updating the abbreviation list since Sparky walked?)
iwasaki
"Mike Barnes" <octob...@mikebarnes.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3r4dZYOr$lh$Ew...@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid...
> In alt.usage.english, R H Draney wrote:
> >The aue webmaster filted:
> >>
> >>The page was created after a suggestion by Nobuko Iwasaki and subsequent
> >>discussion in this newsgroup. I've included on the page all the people
> >>involved in that discussion, except those that didn't respond to my
> >>invitation (due principally to mailboxes overflowing with Swen
> >>messages).
Thank you for the wonderful page! I'm especially glad to hear the
pronunciation of "Padraig Breathnach", which was so different from
what I had mentally pronounced for years.
> >Shame that Iwasaki-san's own name isn't on the list, but given the
> >near-legendary consistency of Japanese phonetics, I suppose there's less
actual
> >need for it than for some of the others....
> >
> >Would have have liked to have seen the pronunciation of Padraig's name
> >documented in an accessible place, though....r
>
> Good points, both of them. I'm onto it. Them.
Thanks for the invitation. I hesitate to put my name on the
list, since I'm not a regular, but I'm curious to know how my
name sounds to aue people's ears. I'll send the .wav file of
my name to the webmaster.
(Sorry for replying so late; I was away from home.)
--
Nobuko Iwasaki
Robert Bannister
> "Mike Barnes" <octob...@mikebarnes.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:3r4dZYOr$lh$Ew...@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid...
>
>>In alt.usage.english, R H Draney wrote:
>>
>>>The aue webmaster filted:
>>>
>>>>The page was created after a suggestion by Nobuko Iwasaki and subsequent
>>>>discussion in this newsgroup. I've included on the page all the people
>>>>involved in that discussion, except those that didn't respond to my
>>>>invitation (due principally to mailboxes overflowing with Swen
>>>>messages).
>>>
>
> Thank you for the wonderful page! I'm especially glad to hear the
> pronunciation of "Padraig Breathnach", which was so different from
> what I had mentally pronounced for years.
I don't often look at the credits of movies, but the DVD I watched last
night was produced by none other than a "Paddy Breathnach".
--
Rob Bannister
Skitt
> Thank you for the wonderful page! I'm especially glad to hear the
> pronunciation of "Padraig Breathnach", which was so different from
> what I had mentally pronounced for years.
That sounds like Pohrick Brannoch to me. By the way, is that a small dog's
bark at the end of the recordings?
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/
Simon R. Hughes
> iwasaki wrote:
>
> > Thank you for the wonderful page! I'm especially glad to hear the
> > pronunciation of "Padraig Breathnach", which was so different from
> > what I had mentally pronounced for years.
>
> That sounds like Pohrick Brannoch to me. By the way, is that a small dog's
> bark at the end of the recordings?
'Tweren't me.
--
Simon R. Hughes <!-- Note correct email address. -->
<!-- Roger Rabbit for President!
(Don't say it couldn't happen.) -->
Padraig Breathnach
>iwasaki wrote:
>
>> Thank you for the wonderful page! I'm especially glad to hear the
>> pronunciation of "Padraig Breathnach", which was so different from
>> what I had mentally pronounced for years.
>
>That sounds like Pohrick Brannoch to me. By the way, is that a small dog's
>bark at the end of the recordings?
>
Like a poodle's, you mean? I didn't hear it. But some might think that
the whole recording was of an animal barking.
The phonics of my name are Gaelic, and the language has three
principal dialects which are quite distinct. There are three different
acceptable ways to pronounce my name. None is anything like what a
person employing English phonic values would produce. People who are
not fluent in Gaelic tend to follow the pronunciation which I (and my
family) use.
--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
Skitt
> "Skitt" wrote:
>> iwasaki wrote:
>>> Thank you for the wonderful page! I'm especially glad to hear the
>>> pronunciation of "Padraig Breathnach", which was so different from
>>> what I had mentally pronounced for years.
>>
>> That sounds like Pohrick Brannoch to me. By the way, is that a
>> small dog's bark at the end of the recordings?
>>
> Like a poodle's, you mean? I didn't hear it. But some might think that
> the whole recording was of an animal barking.
It sounds like a tiny Chihuahua whose tail was stepped on. It comes the
instant you quit speaking.
Charles Riggs
What was the movie? Any good? Another _Ryan's Daughter_ or _The
Informer_, perhaps?
--
Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net
The aue webmaster
I don't hear it. I wonder if it's specific to your player.
I find that on examining the amplitude trace I can see a tiny blob right
at the end of the recording. When I really crank up the volume and
listen to this part in isolation I can hear a slight scraping sound.
There are in fact lots of those in the recording - they appear to be
remnants of noise on the original recording that I've edited out. I've
shortened the recording by 36 ms to eliminate the blob at the end, and
uploaded new files. Could you listen again and let me know if Fido still
makes himself heard? Beware of cached copies of the old files.
I carried out quite a lot of noise reduction etc on the recording
Padraig sent me. I've temporarily loaded the original onto the site, at
http://alt-usage-english.org/audio_gallery/padraigbreathnach.wav
and I'd be interested to know if the hound puts in an appearance there
as well.
--
Mike Barnes
Webmaster, http://alt-usage-english.org/
Isabelle Cecchini
[...]
> I carried out quite a lot of noise reduction etc on the recording
> Padraig sent me. I've temporarily loaded the original onto the site,
> at
>
> http://alt-usage-english.org/audio_gallery/padraigbreathnach.wav
>
> and I'd be interested to know if the hound puts in an appearance there
> as well.
The creature has vanished. The sound as I hear it on my machine is less
clear and loud than in the "padraig_breathnach.wav" or the
"padraig_breathnach.mp3", though.
--
Isabelle Cecchini
Mike Barnes
>The aue webmaster a écrit:
>[...]
>> I carried out quite a lot of noise reduction etc on the recording
>> Padraig sent me. I've temporarily loaded the original onto the site,
>> at
>>
>> http://alt-usage-english.org/audio_gallery/padraigbreathnach.wav
>>
>> and I'd be interested to know if the hound puts in an appearance there
>> as well.
>
>The creature has vanished.
That's good to know. But what I really want to know is is it still there
on the slightly shortened versions of "padraig_breathnach.wav" and
"padraig_breathnach.mp3" that I uploaded earlier today? I see that I
didn't make that very clear, sorry.
>The sound as I hear it on my machine is less
>clear and loud than in the "padraig_breathnach.wav" or the
>"padraig_breathnach.mp3", though.
That's because I pumped up the volume and applied noise reduction for
the versions with an underscore in the name. It's that processing that
might have introduced the yelp.
Isabelle Cecchini
> In alt.usage.english, Isabelle Cecchini wrote:
>> The aue webmaster a écrit:
>> [...]
>>> I carried out quite a lot of noise reduction etc on the recording
>>> Padraig sent me. I've temporarily loaded the original onto the site,
>>> at
>>>
>>> http://alt-usage-english.org/audio_gallery/padraigbreathnach.wav
>>>
>>> and I'd be interested to know if the hound puts in an appearance
>>> there as well.
>>
>> The creature has vanished.
>
> That's good to know. But what I really want to know is is it still
> there on the slightly shortened versions of "padraig_breathnach.wav"
> and "padraig_breathnach.mp3" that I uploaded earlier today? I see
> that I didn't make that very clear, sorry.
It's not your fault. I didn't read you carefully enough. I've just
listened to the 3 files again. On the original one that came directly
from Ireland, I can hear no beast, maybe because there was no beast in
the first place, as I understand now. On the 2 others, I can hear a sort
of squeal or squeak, one at the end of 'Padraig' and another at the end
of 'Breathnach'. I don't know how they compare with the unshortened
ones, because I accessed the files only this morning.
>> The sound as I hear it on my machine is less
>> clear and loud than in the "padraig_breathnach.wav" or the
>> "padraig_breathnach.mp3", though.
>
> That's because I pumped up the volume and applied noise reduction for
> the versions with an underscore in the name. It's that processing that
> might have introduced the yelp.
On reflection, the image being conjured up is rather that of Padraig in
a slightly creaky rocking-chair, and not of him torturing a tiny Irish
setter.
--
Isabelle Cecchini
Skitt
I went back to the original address (through the picture gallery, etc) just
now and found that the dog is now gone on both recordings.