"bucket" vs. "pail"
the guy with the eye
Alan Jones
> What's the difference between a bucket and a pail?
Good question. In BrE "pail" is a slightly old-fashioned word, and might
suggest domestic uses, almost entirely for liquids - in the old days, milk,
even. "Bucket" is a more generic term - a bucket might be used for holding
things, not only liquids. For example, one might carry garden materials in a
bucket, or coal, or the bits and pieces needed for cleaning the car. The
children's toys used in making sand-castles are always "buckets and spades",
not "pails and spades". Most buckets might be bigger than the general run of
pails.
Alan Jones
sa...@non.com
wrote:
Interesting. In Canada, (well, west coast), the children's beach toy
is usually called a 'pail'.
Larry
Ray Heindl
My USan experience is the same, regarding the beach toy. In fact, I
can't think of any other place where I would use "pail" rather than
"bucket". But there's probably a lot of variation in usage across the
US.
--
Ray Heindl
Phil Carmody
Jack and Jill went up the hill to fetch a pail of water.
Apart from that, no pail has ever crossed my path. Buckets all the way.
You can't substitute a pail in "bucket and spade", can you? That would be
like calcite and cheese.
Phil
Raymond S. Wise
news:pan.2003.02.03....@yahoo.co.uk...
A search of the Internet using Google's image search for the phrase
"pail +and spade"
does indeed find nothing. However, an image search for
"pail +and shovel"
gets hits, including many which are the children's toy. The same can be said
for
"bucket +and spade"
(I'd say "pail and shovel" myself.)
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
sa...@non.com
<thefatphi...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Jack and Jill went up the hill to fetch a pail of water.
>Apart from that, no pail has ever crossed my path. Buckets all the way.
Milk pail, children's sand pail (pail and shovel).
Pretty much optional to say "pail of water" or "bucket of water", I
think.
>You can't substitute a pail in "bucket and spade", can you? That would be
>like calcite and cheese.
Calcite and cheese? What would calcite and cheese have to do with each
other?
Larry
R Fontana
My understanding is that there's some dialectal variation in the
frequency and use of "bucket" and "pail" in the US, but I forget the
details. In my dialect (Postwar New York) both 'bucket' and 'pail' are
possible, and I think they overlap in meaning, or perhaps 'pail' is a
subclass of 'bucket'. To me 'pail' is not old-fashioned, but I sense
that it may be for other Americans. I feel that a 'pail'
is probably smaller than a 'bucket', and refers to a smaller class of
objects, and, as in the BrE case you've described, a 'pail' is more
likely to be something intended for domestic use. 'Bucket', but not
'pail', lends itself to extended uses (e.g., "a bucket of fried
clams"). At the beach, in my dialect, children use a "pail and
shovel".
semir...@my-deja.com
"He kicked the pail" - that was perhaps painful
"He kicked the bucket" - that was definitely fatal
Brian Wickham
wrote:
I'm from the same area as RF, but considerably older. At the beach ,
as a child, I always had a "pail and shovel". In our shared dialect,
NYC, we would keep a pail handy for carrying soapy water, or to put
under dripping water. Actually almost all household uses would be for
a pail, not a bucket. I believe that buckets are used where one
works, at least in the NYC area.
Brian Wickham
Tony Cooper
<theguywi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>What's the difference between a bucket and a pail?
>
You kick the bucket, but go beyond the pail.
--
Tony Cooper aka: tony_co...@yahoo.com
Provider of Jots, Tittles, and Oy!s
mb
...
> Calcite and cheese? What would calcite and cheese have to do with each
> other?
The former replaces the latter at my corner deli.
Stefano MacGregor
> What's the difference between a bucket and a pail?
Good question. In addition to the comments given above, I'd like to
point out that a campaign promise made long-long ago was "A full
dinner pail." I've always called that a "lunch bucket".
sa...@non.com
I'm no further ahead. Will no one tell me?
Larry
Alan Jones
[...]
> A search of the Internet using Google's image search for the phrase
>
> "pail +and spade"
>
> does indeed find nothing. However, an image search for
>
> "pail +and shovel"
>
> gets hits, including many which are the children's toy. The same can
> be said for
>
> "bucket +and spade"
>
> (I'd say "pail and shovel" myself.)
We've evidently unearthed another Pondian difference - pail and shovel,
bucket and spade..
"Shovel" meams something different from "spade" in BrE. Shovels are usually
bigger than spades; their blades are curved into low side-walls, to suit
their normal use in "shovelling up" and lifting a quantity of loose material
such as gravel. A spade is a non-sidewalled implement intended primarily for
digging. Does this mean that US children's sandcastle shovels have sidewalls
(traditional British ones don't, being miniature digging spades), or that we
mean different sorts of things by "spade" and "shovel"?
Alan Jones
Matti Lamprhey
>
> [...] At the beach ,
> as a child, I always had a "pail and shovel". In our shared dialect,
> NYC, we would keep a pail handy for carrying soapy water, or to put
> under dripping water. Actually almost all household uses would be for
> a pail, not a bucket. I believe that buckets are used where one
> works, at least in the NYC area.
At least there is a widely-agreed distinction between a shovel and a
spade, so I'd be interested to know whether the "pail and shovel"
brigade were being accurate in that respect.
Matti
Linz
What is calcite?
Phil Carmody
Calcium Carbonate.
What is chalk?
Calcium Carbonate.
Is "chalk and cheese" a UK idiom?
Phil
khann
Ditto for me re the pail & shovel. However, re clams, the raw ones are
purchased from the diggers in pail measures. Drive along the coast of
Maine 0r New Brunswick during clamming season and you will likely see
signs stating "Buying clams - $x /pail". Does this usage remain
constant in other east coast clamming areas?
Pail and bucket appear non-interchangeably in various idioms, viz.:
"crazy as a pail of hammers" (insane -- as using a pail as a measure for
a quantity of something totally unsuited to it) I suppose that 'bucket'
could be used in this example but somehow it doesn't sound right and I
have yet to hear it so employed.
"couldn't get a boot out of a bucket" (the ultimate measure of
ineptitude) 'Pail' is never used in this expression because it would
spoil the alliteration.
KHann
Frances Kemmish
The distinction is made less clearly by Americans. I have never, in
fact, managed to determine what most Americans would think of as a spade
(the digging implement). I have heard even archaeologists, who have to
use both implements regularly, call something a shovel that I would call
a spade.
Fran
Linz
> On Tue, 04 Feb 2003 11:18:51 +0000, Linz wrote:
>
>> sa...@non.com wrote:
>>> On 3 Feb 2003 19:20:45 -0800, azyt...@mail.com (mb) wrote:
>>>
>>>> sa...@non.com wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> Calcite and cheese? What would calcite and cheese have to do with
>>>>> each other?
>>>>
>>>> The former replaces the latter at my corner deli.
>>>
>>> I'm no further ahead. Will no one tell me?
>>
>> What is calcite?
>
> Calcium Carbonate.
I knew that (as I'm sure you realised), I was hoping sarge might go and look
it up.
> What is chalk?
>
> Calcium Carbonate.
Indeed.
> Is "chalk and cheese" a UK idiom?
Yes, definitely.
Tony Cooper
You know, this was my quick assumption: chalk and cheese. I couldn't
understand why anyone would miss it. Then, I looked up calcite and
found it to be nothing at all like chalk. Nothing.
Tony Cooper
A shovel lifts dirt, manure, coal, etc. A spade digs. Any spade can
be called a shovel, but a shovel isn't a spade. "Hand me the shovel"
results in being handed anything that digs or lifts in this category.
We often refer to highway workers as "leaning on their shovels" even
if the implement is a spade. We would never say he's leaning on his
spade. Few people call a spade a spade despite how forthright they
think they are.
Frances Kemmish
> On Tue, 04 Feb 2003 09:34:28 -0500, Frances Kemmish
> <fkem...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Matti Lamprhey wrote:
>>
>>>"Brian Wickham" <bwic...@nyc.rr.com> wrote...
>>>
>>>
>>>>[...] At the beach ,
>>>>as a child, I always had a "pail and shovel". In our shared dialect,
>>>>NYC, we would keep a pail handy for carrying soapy water, or to put
>>>>under dripping water. Actually almost all household uses would be for
>>>>a pail, not a bucket. I believe that buckets are used where one
>>>>works, at least in the NYC area.
>>>
>>>
>>>At least there is a widely-agreed distinction between a shovel and a
>>>spade, so I'd be interested to know whether the "pail and shovel"
>>>brigade were being accurate in that respect.
>>>
>>
>>The distinction is made less clearly by Americans. I have never, in
>>fact, managed to determine what most Americans would think of as a spade
>>(the digging implement). I have heard even archaeologists, who have to
>>use both implements regularly, call something a shovel that I would call
>>a spade.
>>
>
> A shovel lifts dirt, manure, coal, etc. A spade digs. Any spade can
> be called a shovel, but a shovel isn't a spade. "Hand me the shovel"
> results in being handed anything that digs or lifts in this category.
>
In England, if you asked for a shovel, I don't think that anyone would
expect you to be happy to be handed a spade.
Fran
Aaron J. Dinkin
> "Shovel" meams something different from "spade" in BrE. Shovels are
> usually bigger than spades; their blades are curved into low side-walls,
> to suit their normal use in "shovelling up" and lifting a quantity of
> loose material such as gravel. A spade is a non-sidewalled implement
> intended primarily for digging. Does this mean that US children's
> sandcastle shovels have sidewalls (traditional British ones don't, being
> miniature digging spades), or that we mean different sorts of things by
> "spade" and "shovel"?
Well, I do visualize a sandcastle shovel as having little sidewalls, I
suppose, yes. However, I also have the impression that the word "spade"
isn't used very much at all to refer to a digging implement in AmE. I
would bet that for a large number of AmE speakers, the only meaning
"spade" has is one of the suits in a deck of cards.
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
R H Draney
> Is "chalk and cheese" a UK idiom?
Yes...the US equivalent is "apples and oranges"....r
Hedberg
wrote:
[...]
>
>"Shovel" meams something different from "spade" in BrE. Shovels are usually
>bigger than spades; their blades are curved into low side-walls, to suit
>their normal use in "shovelling up" and lifting a quantity of loose material
>such as gravel. A spade is a non-sidewalled implement intended primarily for
>digging. Does this mean that US children's sandcastle shovels have sidewalls
>(traditional British ones don't, being miniature digging spades), or that we
>mean different sorts of things by "spade" and "shovel"?
>
>Alan Jones
>
In my experience, all spades are shovels but not all shovels are
spades. The two spades with which I am most familiar are the drain
spade (curved blade about .00035 km long and .00006 mi wide) and the
garden spade (probably what you think of as a spade).
As far as pail and bucket, in my experience the words are pretty much
synonyms except that I've never heard of a "garbage bucket."
Harold
sa...@non.com
<thefatphi...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> What is calcite?
>
>Calcium Carbonate.
>
>
>What is chalk?
>
>Calcium Carbonate.
>
>
>Is "chalk and cheese" a UK idiom?
Ahh. Went and had a look with Google. I had never heard the expression
before. We would say "as different as day and night".
Chalk and cheese have too much in common to be used this way.
Larry
sa...@non.com
Well, it's got sidewalls, innit?
Most of the children's sholvels that come with the pails are
sidewalled. The main blade is somewhat flat, and the edge has a lip
that rises from the flat spot, low at the digging end, and higher at
the handle end.
Larry
sa...@non.com
wrote:
>We've evidently unearthed another Pondian difference - pail and shovel,
>bucket and spade..
It would appear so.
>"Shovel" meams something different from "spade" in BrE. Shovels are usually
>bigger than spades; their blades are curved into low side-walls, to suit
>their normal use in "shovelling up" and lifting a quantity of loose material
>such as gravel. A spade is a non-sidewalled implement intended primarily for
>digging. Does this mean that US children's sandcastle shovels have sidewalls
>(traditional British ones don't, being miniature digging spades), or that we
>mean different sorts of things by "spade" and "shovel"?
As I mentioned in another post, yes, the treaditional Canadian "pail
and shovel" has a shovel, in that it has sidewalls. If it was a spade,
the little tykes would not be able to get much sand on it.
Larry
Jacqui
> Chalk and cheese have too much in common to be used this way.
Never offer me a sandwich, please.
Jac
Tony Cooper
Just be glad he is not your instructor and writes the important points
on the blackboard.
Jacqui
> Jacqui wrote:
>>Larry wibbled:
>>
>>> Chalk and cheese have too much in common to be used this way.
>>
>>Never offer me a sandwich, please.
>
> Just be glad he is not your instructor and writes the important
> points on the blackboard.
I'd be less likely to choke.
Jac
Phil Carmody
A b, a u, a c, a k, and an e and a t to finish. Two syllables, chocka full
of plosives.
A p, an a, an i and an l. One syllable, dipthonged, and ending on a liquid.
Nothing like each other. Nothing.
That's why I said (since snipped) that one (I) can't substitute one for
the other.
Keep up Tony, it's not hard.
Phil
Alan Jones
<sa...@non.com> wrote in message
news:0vpv3vcdgag6ncpe2...@4ax.com...
[...]
> As I mentioned in another post, yes, the treaditional Canadian "pail
> and shovel" has a shovel, in that it has sidewalls. If it was a spade,
> the little tykes would not be able to get much sand on it.
Exactly - so the flat implement keeps them occupied for longer while Mum or
Dad snoozes. The bucket-and-spade kind of spade is also used to for patting
and cutting the damp sand (essential for decent castle battlements), and so
a flat blade is (so we think) better. But lately new toy spades seem to be
somewhat Americanised in shape and often of plastic rather than metal -
Health and Safety Regulations, perhaps.
Alan Jones
R Fontana
> We've evidently unearthed another Pondian difference - pail and shovel,
> bucket and spade..
>
> "Shovel" meams something different from "spade" in BrE. Shovels are usually
> bigger than spades; their blades are curved into low side-walls, to suit
> their normal use in "shovelling up" and lifting a quantity of loose material
> such as gravel. A spade is a non-sidewalled implement intended primarily for
> digging. Does this mean that US children's sandcastle shovels have sidewalls
> (traditional British ones don't, being miniature digging spades), or that we
> mean different sorts of things by "spade" and "shovel"?
I think that this use of "spade" is uncommon in the US. I have a good
idea of what the BrE meaning is, but I just think of this as one type
of 'shovel', and not the most familiar type, used for example in
gardening. The most familiar type of US 'shovel' is what I think your
BrE 'shovel' is. I think I originally learned the BrE use of 'spade'
from reading Tolkien's _The Lord of the Rings_ -- I believe early in
the first book there are references to Gaffer Gamgee using such
implements.
But the AmE toy shovel used at the beach is a miniature shovel shovel,
with sidewalls, usually.
John Varela
<theguywi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> What's the difference between a bucket and a pail?
Some common pairings (and avoiding anything to do with beaches):
mop bucket
milk pail
well bucket
waterwheel bucket
turbine bucket
garbage pail
--
John Varela
sa...@non.com
wrote:
>>> What is calcite?
>>
>> Calcium Carbonate.
>
>I knew that (as I'm sure you realised), I was hoping sarge might go and look
>it up.
Well, I did know what it meant, but had no reference on which to base
any looking-up.
>> What is chalk?
>>
>> Calcium Carbonate.
>
>Indeed.
>
>> Is "chalk and cheese" a UK idiom?
>
>Yes, definitely.
Once I got this far, I had something to go after. SOunds VERY strange
to me.
Larry
sa...@non.com
It's also a racial epithet referring to black folks. It might be one
of the reasons it is not as pervalent as shovel.
Larry
sa...@non.com
<sirlawren...@hotmail.com> wrote:
In either case, you'd get a lot of calcium.
Larry
rzed
> On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Alan Jones wrote:
>
>> We've evidently unearthed another Pondian difference - pail and
>> shovel, bucket and spade..
>>
>> "Shovel" meams something different from "spade" in BrE. Shovels
>> are usually bigger than spades; their blades are curved into low
>> side-walls, to suit their normal use in "shovelling up" and
>> lifting a quantity of loose material such as gravel. A spade is a
>> non-sidewalled implement intended primarily for digging. Does this
>> mean that US children's sandcastle shovels have sidewalls
>> (traditional British ones don't, being miniature digging spades),
>> or that we mean different sorts of things by "spade" and "shovel"?
>
> I think that this use of "spade" is uncommon in the US.
US gardeners, though, are likely to be familiar with a "garden spade"
(which appears to be the same implement as a "spade" in BrE). I have
probably seen the phrase as often as the bare name.
Hedberg
wrote:
[...]
>
>I think that this use of "spade" is uncommon in the US. I have a good
>idea of what the BrE meaning is, but I just think of this as one type
>of 'shovel', and not the most familiar type, used for example in
>gardening. The most familiar type of US 'shovel' is what I think your
>BrE 'shovel' is. I think I originally learned the BrE use of 'spade'
>from reading Tolkien's _The Lord of the Rings_ -- I believe early in
>the first book there are references to Gaffer Gamgee using such
>implements.
>
>But the AmE toy shovel used at the beach is a miniature shovel shovel,
>with sidewalls, usually.
>
See:
<http://www.locatorsandsupplies.com/vendors/Nupla/drain-garden.htm>
for pictures of some spades. This use of the word "spade" is not
uncommon at all in American English. One interesting thing I learned
today is that some people call those little hand-held shovels for
gardening "garden spades." This may be mostly British usage; I'm not
sure.
Harold
Skitt
> Raymond S. Wise wrote:
> We've evidently unearthed another Pondian difference - pail and
> shovel, bucket and spade..
>
> "Shovel" meams something different from "spade" in BrE. Shovels are
> usually bigger than spades; their blades are curved into low
> side-walls, to suit their normal use in "shovelling up" and lifting a
> quantity of loose material such as gravel. A spade is a
> non-sidewalled implement intended primarily for digging. Does this
> mean that US children's sandcastle shovels have sidewalls
> (traditional British ones don't, being miniature digging spades), or
> that we mean different sorts of things by "spade" and "shovel"?
Here's a shovel:
http://www.avalanche.org/~lsafc/TUTORIAL/shovel.JPG
This is a spade:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/hfguide/clipart_tools/spade.gif
Here are three spades and two shovels:
http://www.asisindia.com/spade.gif
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
I speak English well -- I learn it from a book!
-- Manuel (Fawlty Towers)
Hedberg
>Alan Jones wrote:
>> Raymond S. Wise wrote:
>
>> We've evidently unearthed another Pondian difference - pail and
>> shovel, bucket and spade..
>>
>> "Shovel" meams something different from "spade" in BrE. Shovels are
>> usually bigger than spades; their blades are curved into low
>> side-walls, to suit their normal use in "shovelling up" and lifting a
>> quantity of loose material such as gravel. A spade is a
>> non-sidewalled implement intended primarily for digging. Does this
>> mean that US children's sandcastle shovels have sidewalls
>> (traditional British ones don't, being miniature digging spades), or
>> that we mean different sorts of things by "spade" and "shovel"?
>
[...]
>
>Here are three spades and two shovels:
>http://www.asisindia.com/spade.gif
Oh, my. Looks like five shovels with not a spade in sight to me.
Harold
Mary Shafer
wrote:
Thrust bucket.
Mary
--
Mary Shafer mil...@qnet.com
Retired Aerospace Research Engineer
"A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all."
Anonymous US fighter pilot
at all at @treveneth.com Aokay (David G. Bryce)
<tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 3 Feb 2003 20:43:41 +0100, "the guy with the eye"
><theguywi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>What's the difference between a bucket and a pail?
>>
>You kick the bucket, but go beyond the pail.
If you're going to pun, Mr. Provider of Jots, Tittles, and Oy!s,
at least have the decency to put a question mark at the end.
Non-native-speakers hang out here too, as you surely know.
But 'twas a good little tittle for all that[g].
\
Aokay
(A Canadian from Muskoka, eh? -- resident in Prague)
at all at @treveneth.com Aokay (David G. Bryce)
<rf...@sparky.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
[something]
Tempted I was to post something about pails. And shovels. And etc.
But, who cares, said I. Ah, then, why not ask the group who first
said that thing about calling a spade a damn shovel. I started a
little google on it to while away the time and gave up. Lots of
twaddle and some interesting stuff, viz.,
http://www.mcjester.freeserve.co.uk/badjokes/bj014.htm, from which
is cribbed this hoary old chestnut:
The contemplative routine of the convent was being disrupted by
the presence of workmen converting the electrical service from
overhead lines to buried cable. Mother Superior called the
electric company's complaint department to ask for help.
"The profanity these men use constantly is unsuitable for our
community. You must make them stop cursing so much.", said the
nun.
"Very well, sister. But you must make allowances for their habits.
Even when they are trying to be tactful, they will still tend to
call a spade a spade.", said the company spokeswoman.
Mother superior then observed, "I think the term they actually use
is 'fucking shovel'".
'Nuff time wasted.
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>
>US gardeners, though, are likely to be familiar with a "garden spade"
>(which appears to be the same implement as a "spade" in BrE). I have
>probably seen the phrase as often as the bare name.
>
My own definition of the difference between a spade and a shovel is
that a spade has a square flat area at the top where one places one's
foot to drive it into the ground. A shovel has no place to put the
foot. I have a shovel and two types of spades in the garage. One is
a kind of rounded triangle, and the other is a long rectangle.
There is a difference between a spade and a shovel, but calling a
spade a shovel is not that big a deal.
--
Tony Cooper aka: tony_co...@yahoo.com
Steve Hayes
>We've evidently unearthed another Pondian difference - pail and shovel,
>bucket and spade..
>
>"Shovel" meams something different from "spade" in BrE. Shovels are usually
>bigger than spades; their blades are curved into low side-walls, to suit
>their normal use in "shovelling up" and lifting a quantity of loose material
>such as gravel. A spade is a non-sidewalled implement intended primarily for
>digging. Does this mean that US children's sandcastle shovels have sidewalls
>(traditional British ones don't, being miniature digging spades), or that we
>mean different sorts of things by "spade" and "shovel"?
As a child I played on the beach (AmE=ocean) with a bucket and spade.
In my mind the distinction was that a bucket was made of metal, and a pail was
made of wood, with metal hoops.
I think that was purely because of illustrations in books of nursery rhymes,
which showed Jack and Jill with a wooden pail.
That idea was shaken when a friend of mine (born in Durham, England) one day
referred to a metal bucket as a "pail".
But then again, I think of "milk pail" rather than "milk bucket", even when
the milk pail is made of metal.
I wonder if theres a U/non-U distinction here?
And then there was a bloke from Yorkshire who worked as a handyman at a
mission station in Ovamboland, Namibia, and Ovambos in the area were often
heard to say "them bookets".
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
sa...@non.com
wrote:
>See:
>
><http://www.locatorsandsupplies.com/vendors/Nupla/drain-garden.htm>
>
>for pictures of some spades. This use of the word "spade" is not
>uncommon at all in American English. One interesting thing I learned
>today is that some people call those little hand-held shovels for
>gardening "garden spades." This may be mostly British usage; I'm not
>sure.
In Canada, the small garden spades are called "garden trowels". I just
now checked my Lee Valley Tools Catalogue to make sure I was
remembering correctly.
Larry
Hedberg
Yes -- it is a garden trowel around here as well. I would not call it
a spade, but clearly some do.
Harold
Alan Jones
A British trowel is not at all like a spade or shovel. There are different
sorts, of course: a builder's trowel has a flat sort-of-diamond-shaped
blade, offset below the handle, while a standard garden trowel usually has
a fully curved blade (an arc cut from a cylinder, as it were, not comparable
with the raised edges of a shovel's flat blade) and a fairly blunt point,
and may or may not have a markedly offset handle. There are narrow ones for
alpines, and ones marked with a ruler for planting bulbs to the proper
depth.
Alan Jones .
Steve Hayes
>
>for pictures of some spades. This use of the word "spade" is not
>uncommon at all in American English. One interesting thing I learned
>today is that some people call those little hand-held shovels for
>gardening "garden spades." This may be mostly British usage; I'm not
>sure.
Here we call them trowels.
Matti Lamprhey
>
> My own definition of the difference between a spade and a shovel is
> that a spade has a square flat area at the top where one places one's
> foot to drive it into the ground. A shovel has no place to put the
> foot. I have a shovel and two types of spades in the garage. One is
> a kind of rounded triangle, and the other is a long rectangle.
>
> There is a difference between a spade and a shovel, but calling a
> spade a shovel is not that big a deal.
There should be plenty of differences between the two implements; as
well as the one you mention: the angle at which the blade is set to the
handle, the nature of the blade's edge and the presence of "sides" would
all be important.
Matti
Matti Lamprhey
>
> See:
> <http://www.locatorsandsupplies.com/vendors/Nupla/drain-garden.htm>
>
> for pictures of some spades. This use of the word "spade" is not
> uncommon at all in American English. One interesting thing I learned
> today is that some people call those little hand-held shovels for
> gardening "garden spades." This may be mostly British usage; I'm not
> sure.
We Brits call those little hand-held jobs "trowels", never "spades". We
might find the need to distinguish between "gardening trowel" and
"bricklayer's trowel", but it seems unlikely.
Matti
Linz
> See:
>
> <http://www.locatorsandsupplies.com/vendors/Nupla/drain-garden.htm>
>
> for pictures of some spades. This use of the word "spade" is not
> uncommon at all in American English. One interesting thing I learned
> today is that some people call those little hand-held shovels for
> gardening "garden spades." This may be mostly British usage; I'm not
> sure.
I suspect your "little hand-held shovels for gardening" are called trowels
in British usage.
dcw
Matti Lamprhey <matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote:
>We Brits call those little hand-held jobs "trowels", never "spades". We
>might find the need to distinguish between "gardening trowel" and
>"bricklayer's trowel", but it seems unlikely.
I'd call the latter a "builder's trowel". They're the favourite tool of
archaeologists.
David
Frances Kemmish
When I was an archaeologist in England, we called it a pointing trowel;
in the US, it's called a mason's trowel.
Fran
Linz
> Laughing Linz wrote:
>> I suspect your "little hand-held shovels for gardening" are called
>> trowels in British usage.
>
> Specifically, garden trowels, to distinguish them from builders'
> trowels.
I call them all trowels. I have never needed to distinguish, since the
context is the clue.
Tony Cooper
And also a Mason's trowel.
I wonder if someone will put "trowel" in the subject line and thus
make it a "trowel head"? The thread can then progress to other
epithets. Ah, but that would be troweling.
Aaron J. Dinkin
> As a child I played on the beach (AmE=ocean) with a bucket and spade.
I'm not sure whether you're pulling our collective chain here, but:
AmE "ocean" is the big blue salty wet thing. I suppose it's possible that
you played with a bucket and spade in the big blue salty wet thing, but
salt water castles don't tend to stand up for very long. If where you were
actually playing was on the dry sandy thing that's next to the big blue
salty wet thing, then you were on the AmE "beach".
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
sa...@non.com
That's actually the best thing abiut the ocean; that it comes right up
to the beach.
Larry
Skitt
> Matti Lamprhey wrote:
>> We Brits call those little hand-held jobs "trowels", never "spades".
>> We might find the need to distinguish between "gardening trowel" and
>> "bricklayer's trowel", but it seems unlikely.
>
> I'd call the latter a "builder's trowel". They're the favourite tool
> of archaeologists.
Here's what MWCD10 has:
http://www.m-w.com/mw/art/trowel.htm
R H Draney
I take it you've never visited Yuma, Arizona then....r
Robert Bannister
> On Tue, 04 Feb 2003 15:13:43 GMT, "Aaron J. Dinkin"
> <a...@post.harvard.edu> wrote:
>
>
>> On Tue, 4 Feb 2003 09:10:00 -0000, Alan Jones
>> <a...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> "Shovel" meams something different from "spade" in BrE. Shovels
>>> are usually bigger than spades; their blades are curved into low
>>> side-walls, to suit their normal use in "shovelling up" and
>>> lifting a quantity of loose material such as gravel. A spade is a
>>> non-sidewalled implement intended primarily for digging. Does
>>> this mean that US children's sandcastle shovels have sidewalls
>>> (traditional British ones don't, being miniature digging spades),
>>> or that we mean different sorts of things by "spade" and
>>> "shovel"?
>>
>> sidewalls, I suppose, yes. However, I also have the impression that
>> the word "spade" isn't used very much at all to refer to a digging
>> implement in AmE. I would bet that for a large number of AmE
>> speakers, the only meaning "spade" has is one of the suits in a
>> deck of cards.
>
>
> It's also a racial epithet referring to black folks. It might be one
> of the reasons it is not as pervalent as shovel.
Presumably you don't have the expression "to call a spade a spade"? Not
that this saying has much meaning when you analyse it.
--
Rob Bannister
sa...@non.com
<rob...@it.net.au> wrote:
> > It's also a racial epithet referring to black folks. It might be one
> > of the reasons it is not as pervalent as shovel.
>
>Presumably you don't have the expression "to call a spade a spade"? Not
>that this saying has much meaning when you analyse it.
Oh, we have it alright, and I am comfortable with it. I know a few
folks that aren't, though. Of course they might also bridle at
"niggardly" or "homophone".
Larry
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>On Wed, 05 Feb 2003 04:16:15 GMT, Steve Hayes <haye...@yahoo.com> wrote:
That's the problem with linguistic in jokes.
I was born in Durban, which is a city by the sea.
When I lived there, we used to go to the beach on Sunday afternoons. A Durban
friend moved inland, to a place that used to be known as the Transvaal, and
whose inhabitants were known as Valies. She once expressed the fear that her
children were becoming Valies because they said "We're going to the sea",
instead of "We're going to the beach".
Durbanites despised Valies, who invaded the coast every winter to get away
from the cold (if you're in the US, think Florida).
I took some American friends to Durban, and their kids didn't say "We're going
to the beach" or "We're going to the sea", but "We're going to the ocean".
And then there was the joke in the bad old days of apartheid, where an
American tourist asked an Indian waiter at a Durban hotel:
"Is that the Indian Ocean?"
"No sir, that's the white ocean. The Indian ocean is 200 yards up the beach."
R Fontana
> I was born in Durban, which is a city by the sea.
>
> When I lived there, we used to go to the beach on Sunday afternoons. A Durban
> friend moved inland, to a place that used to be known as the Transvaal, and
> whose inhabitants were known as Valies. She once expressed the fear that her
> children were becoming Valies because they said "We're going to the sea",
> instead of "We're going to the beach".
>
> Durbanites despised Valies, who invaded the coast every winter to get away
> from the cold (if you're in the US, think Florida).
>
> I took some American friends to Durban, and their kids didn't say "We're going
> to the beach" or "We're going to the sea", but "We're going to the ocean".
Interesting. In my dialect, "we're going to the beach" would be the
phrase. The 'ocean' one sounds a bit strange, or maybe not specific
enough.
It seems to me that BrE+ uses "sea" much more often than AmE does (and
I'm speaking here as someone who grew up in a coastal region, so it's
not like the subject never comes up). To me, "the sea" is a poetic,
almost old-fashioned way of referring to "the ocean", which is the
preferred term in everyday speech.
Matti Lamprhey
> [...]
> It seems to me that BrE+ uses "sea" much more often than AmE does (and
> I'm speaking here as someone who grew up in a coastal region, so it's
> not like the subject never comes up). To me, "the sea" is a poetic,
> almost old-fashioned way of referring to "the ocean", which is the
> preferred term in everyday speech.
Well we're simply being precise, Richard; relatively little of the
British coast is bordered by an Ocean, and almost none where the
population density is high.
Matti
Sam Nelson
Iain A F Fleming <iain.f...@circuit-systems.com> writes:
> Laughing Linz wrote:
Or, indeed, archaeologists' trowels.
--
SAm.
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Steve Hayes wrote:
>
>> I was born in Durban, which is a city by the sea.
>>
>> When I lived there, we used to go to the beach on Sunday afternoons. A Durban
>> friend moved inland, to a place that used to be known as the Transvaal, and
>> whose inhabitants were known as Valies. She once expressed the fear that her
>> children were becoming Valies because they said "We're going to the sea",
>> instead of "We're going to the beach".
>>
>> Durbanites despised Valies, who invaded the coast every winter to get away
>> from the cold (if you're in the US, think Florida).
>>
>> I took some American friends to Durban, and their kids didn't say "We're going
>> to the beach" or "We're going to the sea", but "We're going to the ocean".
>
>Interesting. In my dialect, "we're going to the beach" would be the
>phrase. The 'ocean' one sounds a bit strange, or maybe not specific
>enough.
>
I've been to a place where one goes to the shingle.
Richard R. Hershberger
> On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Steve Hayes wrote:
>
> > I took some American friends to Durban, and their kids didn't say "We're going
> > to the beach" or "We're going to the sea", but "We're going to the ocean".
>
> Interesting. In my dialect, "we're going to the beach" would be the
> phrase. The 'ocean' one sounds a bit strange, or maybe not specific
> enough.
Then there is the lovely Philadelphia expression "going down the shore".
Richard R. Hershberger
R Fontana
Also used in New Jersey, including Jersey (i.e., suburban northern New
Jersey, closer to NY than to Phila.).
Frances Kemmish
Brighton?
Robert Bannister
I would have thought that most British people used 'to the seaside', an
expression that does not seem to be used elsewhere.
--
Rob Bannister
Frances Kemmish
Except in Seaside, Oregon.
Fran
John Dean
>
> And then there was the joke in the bad old days of apartheid, where an
> American tourist asked an Indian waiter at a Durban hotel:
>
> "Is that the Indian Ocean?"
>
> "No sir, that's the white ocean. The Indian ocean is 200 yards up the
> beach."
Shouldn't that be cross-posted to alt.folklore.durban?
Or alt.folklore.turban?
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
Tony Cooper
I've been there, but I was thinking of Weston-super-Mare.
Steve Hayes
>> Durbanites despised Valies, who invaded the coast every winter to get away
>> from the cold (if you're in the US, think Florida).
>>
>> I took some American friends to Durban, and their kids didn't say "We're going
>> to the beach" or "We're going to the sea", but "We're going to the ocean".
>
>Interesting. In my dialect, "we're going to the beach" would be the
>phrase. The 'ocean' one sounds a bit strange, or maybe not specific
>enough.
>
>It seems to me that BrE+ uses "sea" much more often than AmE does (and
>I'm speaking here as someone who grew up in a coastal region, so it's
>not like the subject never comes up). To me, "the sea" is a poetic,
>almost old-fashioned way of referring to "the ocean", which is the
>preferred term in everyday speech.
In my dialect "ocean" is not used on its own. We never speak of "the" ocean,
but only of a named one - the Indian Ocean, the Pacific Ocean, the Atlantic
Ocean. If it's not named, its "the sea".
sa...@non.com
wrote:
>In my dialect "ocean" is not used on its own. We never speak of "the" ocean,
>but only of a named one - the Indian Ocean, the Pacific Ocean, the Atlantic
>Ocean. If it's not named, its "the sea".
On the west coast of Canada, it's "the beach" when speaking of going
to the shore", and "the ocean" when speaking of the big blue wet thing
itself. However, there's one other term in very common use... "the
chuck", or "the saltchuck". "Chuck" is a Salish (Indian) word for
"water".
You'll often hear people use it in a form like "I dropped it into the
chuck.", or "He fell into the chuck". If the context is such that it
isn't clear whether the chuck was fresh or salt water, "saltchuck" is
used.
There are quite a number (I know of at least 3) places in BC (the
westenmost province of Canada) that are called Skookumchuck. "Skookum"
is another Salish word, meaning "strong". All places named
Skookumchuck are near a pitch of white water (rapids), and at least
one of places is near rapids in the saltchuck.
Larry
R J Valentine
In Maryland we go "down the ocean" (or "daniation"), that being Sussex
County, Delaware, or Worcester County, Maryland. If someone were to be
going to the shore, it would probably be the Jersey shore. We've got
beaches on both bays, though. We've got two seas, too: O.C. and A.C.
--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:r...@smart.net>
So it's New Jersey's A.C.
Jacqui
> It seems to me that BrE+ uses "sea" much more often than AmE does
> (and I'm speaking here as someone who grew up in a coastal region,
> so it's not like the subject never comes up). To me, "the sea" is
> a poetic, almost old-fashioned way of referring to "the ocean",
> which is the preferred term in everyday speech.
The USA is situated between two enormous oceans. Of course it's normal
to you to call a large body of water an ocean. The UK has the Irish
Sea, the North Sea, the English Channel, and some exposure to the
Atlantic Ocean but most of our favourite "seaside" resorts are *not* on
the Atlantic coastline... it can be a bit nippy, and has been rather
polluted of late. In addition, we have been visiting the Mediterranean,
again a Sea, for holidays, for a very long time. To us, "sea" tends to
be the default term. It's smaller-scale.
Jac
Matti Lamprhey
Really?
http://www.forces-of-nature.co.uk/beachguide/bg_bristolch.htm#Weston-Super-Mare
Matti
John Dean
Yebbut, the poetic & patriotic usage Over There is 'from sea to shining sea'
not 'from ocean to shining ocean'.
For a recent (mind-boggling) usage see
http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/01/31/reid.transcript/
chano
"Matti Lamprhey" <matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote in message
news:b1vve1$16vnl0$1...@ID-103223.news.dfncis.de...
I grew up on the south coast of England near the beach. When we dumped our
things on the sand it was always, "OK, who's coming in the water?" "Sea" was
only used in the context of, "The sea looks a bit rough!" Some jokers used
"Briney". "Ocean" was something we only saw in atlases in geography lessons.
Chano
Steve Hayes
>> It seems to me that BrE+ uses "sea" much more often than AmE does (and
>> I'm speaking here as someone who grew up in a coastal region, so it's
>> not like the subject never comes up). To me, "the sea" is a poetic,
>> almost old-fashioned way of referring to "the ocean", which is the
>> preferred term in everyday speech.
>
>I would have thought that most British people used 'to the seaside', an
>expression that does not seem to be used elsewhere.
The seaside is not the beach. It's the one-armed bandits.
As a student I used to drive busloads (BrE=coachloads) of trippers from London
to the seaside at Southend, Margate, Ramsgate, Broadstairs etc.
On leaving the bus they would make straight for the slot machines (identical
to the ones they could find at the corner pub in town) and begin pushing in
coins.
Mind you, I can see why they didn't go to the beach. At Southend it was about
a mile of mud-flats with a stretch of water seen in the far distance. At
Margate (or was it Ramsgate) it was a stretch of stones, and one could go
swimming if one didn't mind sharing the water with turds and used condoms. I
don't think the Brits had heard of sewage treatment, though they may have
caught up since then.
R J Valentine
...
} The USA is situated between two enormous oceans.
Three.
Tony Cooper
Really, yourself:
http://www.wessexwater.co.uk/education/centres.html
I had seen "shingle" used to refer to a British beach area in novels
and printed references, but it was in Weston-super-Mare that I first
heard a person (our B&B proprietor) use the term. I also saw a man
sitting in one of those canvas sling chairs. He was wearing a jacket
and tie. My first suspicion was that the Weston-super-Mare council
officer for "Quaint British Sightings" was at work, but I later saw a
similarly dressed man accompanied by a lady in a posh frock and
sensible shoes walking on the shingle. I knew the town didn't have
budget enough for such a large cast for one family of tourists.
Jacqui
> Jacqui wrote: ...
> } The USA is situated between two enormous oceans.
> ...
>
> Three.
Do many people visit the Arctic Ocean for their seaside holidays?
Jac
Matti Lamprhey
> "Matti Lamprhey" <matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote:
> >"Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote...
> >> Frances Kemmish <fkem...@optonline.net> wrote:
> >> >Tony Cooper wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> I've been to a place where one goes to the shingle.
> >> >
> >> >Brighton?
> >>
> >> I've been there, but I was thinking of Weston-super-Mare.
> >
> >Really?
>
>http://www.forces-of-nature.co.uk/beachguide/bg_bristolch.htm#Weston-Su
per-Mare
>
> http://www.wessexwater.co.uk/education/centres.html
Oh really! Your article seems to relate to a nature studies centre near
Weston "featuring a trail through various managed habitats including
wetland, reedbeds, shingle beaches, wet meadow and rough grassland."
Does this mean that shingle is the primary feature of the main beach at
Weston, as it admittedly is at Brighton?
By the way, did you like the Punch & Judy show?
Matti
R Fontana
> I grew up on the south coast of England near the beach. When we dumped our
> things on the sand it was always, "OK, who's coming in the water?" "Sea" was
> only used in the context of, "The sea looks a bit rough!" Some jokers used
> "Briney". "Ocean" was something we only saw in atlases in geography lessons.
In my dialect "the water" is also used once you are actually at the
beach. In another setting, however, you'd refer to that sort of water
as "the ocean". It's possible that people in my native dialectal
region who tended to go to beaches situated by bays had a different
terminological approach.
Frances Kemmish
Around here, we don't say "the ocean", when we mean "the Sound".
Fran
Tony Cooper
<matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote:
>"Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote...
>> "Matti Lamprhey" <matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote:
>> >"Tony Cooper" <tony_co...@yahoo.com> wrote...
>> >> Frances Kemmish <fkem...@optonline.net> wrote:
>> >> >Tony Cooper wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I've been to a place where one goes to the shingle.
>> >> >
>> >> >Brighton?
>> >>
>> >> I've been there, but I was thinking of Weston-super-Mare.
>> >
>> >Really?
>>
>>http://www.forces-of-nature.co.uk/beachguide/bg_bristolch.htm#Weston-Su
>per-Mare
>>
>> Really, yourself:
>> http://www.wessexwater.co.uk/education/centres.html
>
>Oh really! Your article seems to relate to a nature studies centre near
>Weston "featuring a trail through various managed habitats including
>wetland, reedbeds, shingle beaches, wet meadow and rough grassland."
>Does this mean that shingle is the primary feature of the main beach at
>Weston, as it admittedly is at Brighton?
OK, you've outed me. I really wasn't able to tell the shingle from
the sand. It was a cold, overcast, gloomy day (obviously an anomaly
in England) and the wind seemed specially trained to seek out
vulnerable spots in my clothing. I stood well back from the water-
side and just watched a number of daft people that seemed oblivious to
the elements. The Mad Dogs and Englishmen seem to go out in more
than the mid-day sun, and I'm too much of a Coward to follow them.
My son, though, actually took off his shoes and socks and waded into
the water. You may claim that the beach at Weston-super-Mare is sand,
but my son was constantly hopping up and down from stepping on sharp
particles of "sand". His Florida beach-conditioned feet were no match
for that beach.
We'd driven up from Cheddar Gorge. That was more impressive to my
son. Seldom, living in Florida, does one see parts of the ground
higher than one's head unless one is at a landfill.
>By the way, did you like the Punch & Judy show?
>
It wasn't on, or wasn't apparent. Maybe the show only appears in
clement weather. I didn't see a roll-a-bowl-a-ball-a-penny-a-pitch
place over there, either. Someone took their lovely bunch of coconuts
and went to the South of France or something.
R Fontana
> Yebbut, the poetic & patriotic usage Over There is 'from sea to shining sea'
> not 'from ocean to shining ocean'.
> For a recent (mind-boggling) usage see
> http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/01/31/reid.transcript/
My mind was somewhat boggled too. But if those _Rumpole_ books are at
all accurate, that sort of thing is said by British judges *before* the
jury renders its verdict. :-)
M. J. Powell
<tony_co...@yahoo.com> writes
Did you see anyone with a knotted handkerchief on their head? The
classic garb of the British at the sea-side.
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
Skitt
> Did you see anyone with a knotted handkerchief on their head? The
> classic garb of the British at the sea-side.
Hah! I remember tham from my childhood at Jurmala (near Riga). Ridiculous
things!
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
I speak English well -- I learn it from a book!
-- Manuel (Fawlty Towers)
Tony Cooper
<mi...@pickmere.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>I had seen "shingle" used to refer to a British beach area in novels
>>and printed references, but it was in Weston-super-Mare that I first
>>heard a person (our B&B proprietor) use the term. I also saw a man
>>sitting in one of those canvas sling chairs. He was wearing a jacket
>>and tie. My first suspicion was that the Weston-super-Mare council
>>officer for "Quaint British Sightings" was at work, but I later saw a
>>similarly dressed man accompanied by a lady in a posh frock and
>>sensible shoes walking on the shingle. I knew the town didn't have
>>budget enough for such a large cast for one family of tourists.
>
>Did you see anyone with a knotted handkerchief on their head? The
>classic garb of the British at the sea-side.
Strange you should mention that. He was sitting on a wall. I thought
he was the council officer. He left to argue with someone, and I
noticed he had a strange walk. The twit!
Simon R. Hughes
I do.
OK, I can even see the Arcitc Ocean from where I am sitting. In the
summer, however, we travel even further north to the middle of
absolutely nowhere -- paradise, from where a visit to the nearest
shop takes 45 minutes in a boat followed by an hour in the car.
(I have pictures of the north pole from a distance of some 2,500
kilometres.)
When the shit hits the fan, I'm moving there.
--
Simon R. Hughes
"I often think there should exist a special typographical
sign for a smile -- some sort of concave mark, a supine
round bracket" -- Vladimir Nabokov, _Strong Opinions_.
R Fontana
I think the same is true on the north shore of Long Island.
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>I had seen "shingle" used to refer to a British beach area in novels
>and printed references, but it was in Weston-super-Mare that I first
>heard a person (our B&B proprietor) use the term. I also saw a man
>sitting in one of those canvas sling chairs. He was wearing a jacket
>and tie. My first suspicion was that the Weston-super-Mare council
>officer for "Quaint British Sightings" was at work, but I later saw a
>similarly dressed man accompanied by a lady in a posh frock and
>sensible shoes walking on the shingle. I knew the town didn't have
>budget enough for such a large cast for one family of tourists.
I observed the same phenomenon. I took photos, in case the folks back home
didn't believe me.
One occasionally sees a knotted handkerchief upon the head as well.