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Take a decision

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bri...@wsu.edu

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Aug 10, 2007, 2:09:00 PM8/10/07
to
Poking around on the Web I find discussions of "take a decision" vs.
"make a decision" indicating that the former expression is mostly
British, though it crops up in American usage occasionally. What I
couldn't determine quickly was whether UK usage experts deplore "take
a decision" or consider it standard usage.

Feedback from UK residents welcome.

Paul Brians

Adrian Bailey

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Aug 10, 2007, 7:05:34 PM8/10/07
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<bri...@wsu.edu> wrote in message
news:1186769340.4...@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

Google counts:

decision 322 M, of which UK sites 15.1 M (ratio of 21.3 to 1)

take a 817 K : 155 K (5.3)
took a 183 K : 38.2 K (4.8)
taken a 244 K : 39.4 K (6.2)
taking a 244 K : 55.5 K (4.4)

take the 325K : 84.3 K (3.9)
took the 545 K : 200 K (2.7)
taken the 335 K : 133 K (2.5)
taking the 175 K : 65.4 K (2.7)

take _s 1.19 M : 358 K (3.3)
took _s 58 K : 17.8 K (3.3)
taken _s 61.1 K : 13.3 K (4.6)
taking _s 519 K : 158 K (3.3)

-taking 400 K : 113 K (3.5)
-taker 122 K : 113 K (1.1)


make a 2.13 M : 1.03 M (2.1)
made a 2.17 M : 230 K (9.4)
making a 2.12 M : 406 K (5.2)

make the 2.06 M : 391 K (5.3)
made the 2.11 M : 419 K (5.0)
making the 1.83 M : 231 K (7.9)

make _s 2.32 M : 1.72 M (1.3)
made _s 817 K : 73.2 K (11.2)
making _s 2.01 M : 1.09 M (1.8)

-making 136 M : 2.01 M (68)
-maker 2.02 M : 971 K (8.7)


IMO "take a decision" sounds a bit odd. OTOH I don't find "took the
decision" odd at all.

Adrian (UK)


Skitt

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Aug 10, 2007, 7:18:14 PM8/10/07
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Adrian Bailey wrote:
> <bri...@wsu.edu> wrote:

Let's not forget that in the US, "taking a decision" (winning) and its
similar forms can apply to sports contests, like boxing, wrestling, and
others. That can explain some of the US Google hits.
--
Skitt

Steve Hayes

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Aug 10, 2007, 7:47:25 PM8/10/07
to

I'm not a UK resident, though i was at one time. But one of my colleagues at
work questioned it, and I checked various sources, and most of them said it
was OK. That was about 20 years ago, so I can't remember which sources they
were.


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

matt271...@yahoo.co.uk

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Aug 10, 2007, 8:00:40 PM8/10/07
to

In the UK, in my experience, both are equally acceptable and are
standard usage. I certainly have not heard that anyone deplores "take
a decision". Initially I was going to suggest that "take" sounded
slightly more formal, as if the decision had been discussed or
deliberated over, but now I've overthought it and can't decide whether
there's a difference after all.

Robert Bannister

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Aug 10, 2007, 8:20:44 PM8/10/07
to
Adrian Bailey wrote:

> IMO "take a decision" sounds a bit odd. OTOH I don't find "took the
> decision" odd at all.

I don't want to imply I have any rules about this or am consistent in
any way, but "took a decision" feels for me like something a group of
people might have done, whereas "made a decision" could have been one
person.

--
Rob Bannister

matt271...@yahoo.co.uk

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Aug 10, 2007, 8:30:34 PM8/10/07
to

Yes, thank you... that was exactly my feeling until I talked myself
out of it...

John Holmes

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Aug 10, 2007, 11:57:24 PM8/10/07
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Yes, "take a decision" sounds rather like "adopt a decision". I'd
picture a committee considering several different options and deciding
which one to take or adopt as official.

--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au

tony cooper

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Aug 11, 2007, 12:51:20 AM8/11/07
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On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 13:57:24 +1000, "John Holmes" <see...@instead.com>
wrote:

>Robert Bannister wrote:
>> Adrian Bailey wrote:
>>
>>> IMO "take a decision" sounds a bit odd. OTOH I don't find "took the
>>> decision" odd at all.
>>
>> I don't want to imply I have any rules about this or am consistent in
>> any way, but "took a decision" feels for me like something a group of
>> people might have done, whereas "made a decision" could have been one
>> person.
>
>Yes, "take a decision" sounds rather like "adopt a decision". I'd
>picture a committee considering several different options and deciding
>which one to take or adopt as official.

This thread baffles me. I can think of no context (other than boxing)
where "take a decision" or "took a decision" could be, would be, used.

I don't even see "adopting a decision". A group arrives at a decision
and may, based on that decision, adopt a policy or a program or a
course of action. The decision, though, is neither taken nor adopted.


--


Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

Farhad

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Aug 11, 2007, 11:39:18 AM8/11/07
to
On Aug 10, 9:09 pm, "bri...@wsu.edu" <bri...@wsu.edu> wrote:
> Poking around on the Web I find discussions of "take a decision" vs.
> "make a decision" indicating that the former expression is mostly
> British, though it crops up in American usage occasionally. What I
> couldn't determine quickly was whether UK usage experts deplore "take
> a decision" or consider it standard usage.

Using "take" or "make" with "decision" is not a matter of American
usage or whatever. You make a decision do something. But when you make
a very important decision after considering it a lot, you take a
decision.

Making a note and taking a note have a similar, but not identical,
story. It's not that Americans say one but not the other.

Farhad


Donna Richoux

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Aug 11, 2007, 11:50:10 AM8/11/07
to
Farhad <fvaf...@gmail.com> wrote:

Excuse me, you may have met different Americans during your life than I
have, but I myself have never heard one say "take a decision."
Therefore, in my view, it is pondal. Paul Brians did say above that "it
crops up in American usage occasionally," so maybe it's the custom
either in some US geographic region or some field of work.

--
Best wishes -- Donna Richoux
An American living in the Netherlands

Robert Lieblich

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Aug 11, 2007, 11:52:14 AM8/11/07
to
Farhad wrote:
>
> On Aug 10, 9:09 pm, "bri...@wsu.edu" <bri...@wsu.edu> wrote:
> > Poking around on the Web I find discussions of "take a decision" vs.
> > "make a decision" indicating that the former expression is mostly
> > British, though it crops up in American usage occasionally. What I
> > couldn't determine quickly was whether UK usage experts deplore "take
> > a decision" or consider it standard usage.
>
> Using "take" or "make" with "decision" is not a matter of American
> usage or whatever. You make a decision do something. But when you make
> a very important decision after considering it a lot, you take a
> decision.

Maybe that's how you use the words. It's not how I use them. I have
never to my knowlege written or uttered "take a decision" excent when
mentioning it as I have here.



> Making a note and taking a note have a similar, but not identical,
> story. It's not that Americans say one but not the other.

It may or may not be pondial; I can't say. On my side of the pond
(left), "take a decision" is, in my experience, ra^H^Hvery
infrequent. I don't recall ever encountering it in the past tense
("took a decision"), spoken or written. And it's odd enough that I
think I'd notice it if it occurred.

Interestingly, the first few Google hits on "take +a decision" link to
sites where its legitimacy and pondiality are discussed, and some are
actually useful. The first few actual uses in the wild seem to come
mostly from non-native speakers.

All else apart, this is one of those phrases that the language can
easily do without (compare "different to"), aside, perhaps, from the
"win something" sense Tony Cooper has posted about.

Serge Paccalin

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Aug 11, 2007, 12:11:06 PM8/11/07
to
Le samedi 11 août 2007 à 17:52:14, Robert Lieblich a écrit dans
alt.usage.english :

> The first few actual uses in the wild seem to come
> mostly from non-native speakers.

In French, we say « prendre une décision » i.e. "take".

--
___________
_/ _ \_`_`_`_) Serge PACCALIN -- sp ad mailclub.net
\ \_L_) Il faut donc que les hommes commencent
-'(__) par n'être pas fanatiques pour mériter
_/___(_) la tolérance. -- Voltaire, 1763

Robert Lieblich

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Aug 11, 2007, 12:37:48 PM8/11/07
to
Serge Paccalin wrote:
>
> Le samedi 11 août 2007 à 17:52:14, Robert Lieblich a écrit dans
> alt.usage.english :
>
> > The first few actual uses in the wild seem to come
> > mostly from non-native speakers.
>
> In French, we say « prendre une décision » i.e. "take".

The French are always to blame.

Serge Paccalin

unread,
Aug 11, 2007, 12:53:07 PM8/11/07
to
Le samedi 11 août 2007 à 18:37:48, Robert Lieblich a écrit dans
alt.usage.english :

> The French are always to blame.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8equE_t3zDk

Oleg Lego

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Aug 11, 2007, 8:33:32 PM8/11/07
to
On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 15:39:18 -0000, Farhad posted:

I'm Canadian, and have never heard a Canadian or an American use "take
a decision" or "took a decision". Not ever.

Farhad

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Aug 12, 2007, 4:14:33 AM8/12/07
to
On Aug 12, 4:33 am, Oleg Lego <r...@atatatat.com> wrote:

> I'm Canadian, and have never heard a Canadian or an American use "take
> a decision" or "took a decision". Not ever.

The phrase "take a decision" is most often used in news stories,
especially the political ones. As I said in earlier postings, it means
"making a decision after considering the issue a lot". I totally agree
with John Holmes and would like to quote him here: "... 'take a


decision' sounds rather like 'adopt a decision'. I'd picture a
committee considering several different options and deciding which one
to take or adopt as official."

Farhad


Donna Richoux

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Aug 12, 2007, 5:35:15 AM8/12/07
to
Farhad <fvaf...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Aug 12, 4:33 am, Oleg Lego <r...@atatatat.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm Canadian, and have never heard a Canadian or an American use "take
> > a decision" or "took a decision". Not ever.
>
> The phrase "take a decision" is most often used in news stories,
> especially the political ones.

Oh? Turning to the Washington Post, I find "take a decision" used
exactly twice in the last 60 days, one a direct quote from Nihat Ali
Ozcan of the Economic Policy Research Foundation of Turkey, and the
other an indirect quote from Singapore Foreign Minister George Yeo. Do
you count these as "American usage"?

"Make a decision" was found 64 times in the same 60 days.

Perhaps you have confused this phrase with some other.

--
Best wishes -- D

Farhad

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Aug 12, 2007, 5:59:19 AM8/12/07
to
On Aug 12, 1:35 pm, t...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote:


> Do you count these as "American usage"?

Did I ever say it's a matter of "American usage"? If you are
suggesting that "taking a decision" is a phrase used by non-native
speakers, then how come such internationally prestigious dictionaries
as Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary (OALD) and Longman Dictionary
of Contemporary English (LDOCE) treat the phrase as a totally normal
expression? Of course, I do not agree with what OALD says. It says
"make a decision" is used in British English and its American
counterpart is "take a decision". But LDOCE says "take a decision" is
making a decision after a lot of consideration.

Farhad

Donna Richoux

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Aug 12, 2007, 6:34:22 AM8/12/07
to
Farhad <fvaf...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Aug 12, 1:35 pm, t...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote:
>
> > Do you count these as "American usage"?
>
> Did I ever say it's a matter of "American usage"?

Why yes, in Message-ID:
<1186846758.5...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> .

You said Americans say both "take" and "make". Three people have told
you, politely, that you were wrong about that.

>If you are
> suggesting that "taking a decision" is a phrase used by non-native
> speakers, then how come such internationally prestigious dictionaries
> as Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary (OALD) and Longman Dictionary
> of Contemporary English (LDOCE) treat the phrase as a totally normal
> expression?

That's easily explained. Many non-native speakers use British English.
These same people would probably speak of "rubbish" instead of "trash"
and of "car parks" instead of "parking lots." Briticisms. Or
"Britishisms," which is a more popular spelling but looks odd to me.

>Of course, I do not agree with what OALD says.

If you mean, you no longer think that Americans say "take a decision,"
fine. That's all I wanted.

>It says
> "make a decision" is used in British English and its American
> counterpart is "take a decision".

If you're sure you read them correctly, then they got it backwards. The
British may use both, but the Americans don't use "take".

>But LDOCE says "take a decision" is
> making a decision after a lot of consideration.

It's not a phrase I use, or see very often, so I can't speak to the
subtle specifics of its definition.

Farhad

unread,
Aug 12, 2007, 8:12:02 AM8/12/07
to
On Aug 12, 2:34 pm, t...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote:

> You said Americans say both "take" and "make".

Both Americans and British people say "take a decision" as well as
"make a decision". However, "make a decision" is more frequently used
in both American and British English than "take a decision".


> Many non-native speakers use British English.
> These same people would probably speak of "rubbish" instead of "trash"
> and of "car parks" instead of "parking lots."

Dear Donna, you make overgeneralizations very easily based on
absolutely no sufficient evidence. The non-native speakers you have
met might have learned to speak in British English. But they are only
the non-native speakers you have met. Most of non-native speakers I
have met talk in American English. I'm not by any means suggesting
that most non-native speakers talk in American English. Perhaps, some
research needs to be done to see which variety of English is more
learned by non-native speakers. My intuition is that American English
is learned by more non-native speakers because of the highly
successful American movies and the fact that more international
students tend to apply for American universities.


> If you mean, you no longer think that Americans say "take a decision,"
> fine. That's all I wanted.

No. I don't mean that.


> If you're sure you read them correctly, then they got it backwards. The
> British may use both, but the Americans don't use "take".

I read them again. That's what OALD says.

Farhad

Dominic Bojarski

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Aug 12, 2007, 9:42:35 AM8/12/07
to

You've already heard four native American English speakers tell you
that they have never heard of "take a decision", and I'll be the
fifth. I have never heard it even once in my life. If it is said at
all by American native speakers, it is either jargon (perhaps sports
jargon as Skitt has suggested, or perhaps industry or bureaucratic
jargon) or non-standard regional usage. In either case, it's extremely
rare and very abnormal. In fact, I would say it's plain wrong.

The overwhelming majority of Google hits for "take a decision" can be
attributed to non-native English speakers writing in English. A tiny
minority of the hits appear to have been written by non-American
native speakers. I couldn't find even one instance of "take a
decision" having been written by a native American.

The topic of this thread has been the topic of threads on many other
forums. The discussion is invariably the same: Americans simply do not
use "take a decision". One Canadian journalist said he'd "probably
bitch-slap any writer who wanted to use it in his or her own prose".
And Canadians are far more familiar with Briticisms than Americans
are.

As for the OALD, either this dictionary has made a mistake (it
happens), or you misunderstood what the dictionary actually says.
Please quote the ENTIRE entry in the dictionary so that we can figure
out what the case is.

Dominic Bojarski

Paul Wolff

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Aug 12, 2007, 9:50:53 AM8/12/07
to
Steve Hayes <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote

>On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 11:09:00 -0700, "bri...@wsu.edu" <bri...@wsu.edu> wrote:
>
>>Poking around on the Web I find discussions of "take a decision" vs.
>>"make a decision" indicating that the former expression is mostly
>>British, though it crops up in American usage occasionally. What I
>>couldn't determine quickly was whether UK usage experts deplore "take
>>a decision" or consider it standard usage.
>>
>>Feedback from UK residents welcome.
>
>I'm not a UK resident, though i was at one time. But one of my colleagues at
>work questioned it, and I checked various sources, and most of them said it
>was OK. That was about 20 years ago, so I can't remember which sources they
>were.
>
As a UK resident I'm perfectly at home with taking a decision, but after
coming back to this thread a few times I am beginning to wonder if I
don't more naturally say take "the" decision [to do something with
foreseeably enduring consequences, that requires deliberate considered
thought] but make "a" decision [to do something relatively trivial or
shorter term].

So I took the decision to change my job, to move out of London, to give
up smoking; but I made a decision to postpone my holiday a few weeks, to
repaint the bedroom walls pale white, to change the bulbs by planting
tulips in place of daffodils.

I'm not quite convinced, but if I decided to emigrate I'd definitely
take the decision rather than make one.
--
Paul

Robert Lieblich

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Aug 12, 2007, 9:55:38 AM8/12/07
to
Farhad wrote:
>
> On Aug 12, 2:34 pm, t...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote:
>
> > You said Americans say both "take" and "make".
>
> Both Americans and British people say "take a decision" as well as
> "make a decision". However, "make a decision" is more frequently used
> in both American and British English than "take a decision".

You can say this all you want, but I don't think you have yet received
any support from a single American, whereas several, myself included,
have posted to exactly the opposite effect. I'll repeat what I said
before -- to judge from my experience (which is fairly broad), "take a
decision" is not standard in American English. With a few inevitable
exceptions, American's don't say or write it. "Authorities" that say
the contrary are WRONG!


>
> > Many non-native speakers use British English.
> > These same people would probably speak of "rubbish" instead of "trash"
> > and of "car parks" instead of "parking lots."
>
> Dear Donna, you make overgeneralizations very easily based on
> absolutely no sufficient evidence. The non-native speakers you have
> met might have learned to speak in British English. But they are only
> the non-native speakers you have met. Most of non-native speakers I
> have met talk in American English.

Even so, that doesn't mean that native speakers of American English
use "take a decision." Non-native speakers get lots of nuances wrong
-- assuming that you are correct that non-natives speakers who learned
the American variety nevertheless say "take a decision." I"m not at
all sure you are rigbt about that asumption, but even if you are it
doesn't change what native speakers do.

> My intuition is that American English
> is learned by more non-native speakers because of the highly
> successful American movies and the fact that more international
> students tend to apply for American universities.

I won't argue this point, although I think it highly arguable. It
doesn't matter where "take a decision" is concerned.

> > If you mean, you no longer think that Americans say "take a decision,"
> > fine. That's all I wanted.
>
> No. I don't mean that.

Then you're wrong.

> > If you're sure you read them correctly, then they got it backwards. The
> > British may use both, but the Americans don't use "take".
>
> I read them again. That's what OALD says.

Yes, that's what OALD says.
<http://www.oup.com/oald-bin/web_getald7index1a.pl>: "de•ci•sion /dsn/
noun
1 [C] ~ (on / about sth)| ~ (to do sth) a choice or judgement that you
make after thinking and talking about what is the best thing to do: to
take a decision (= to decide) // (BrE) to make a decision (= to
decide)." Oxford sometimes gets things wrong, and this is one of
those times. If Jesse Sheidlower is still googling his name
periodically, I trust he'll now see this discussion and introduce it
into the deliberations of his employer.

Oleg Lego

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Aug 12, 2007, 10:23:27 AM8/12/07
to
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 08:14:33 -0000, Farhad posted:

>On Aug 12, 4:33 am, Oleg Lego <r...@atatatat.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm Canadian, and have never heard a Canadian or an American use "take
>> a decision" or "took a decision". Not ever.
>
>The phrase "take a decision" is most often used in news stories,
>especially the political ones.

Well, it's entirely possible that I have missed a few uses of the
phrase by Canadians or Americans, as I don't pay much attention to
political news stories. I do pick up on unusual English usage and
pronunciation, though, even when I am not paying attention to the
point of the news item.

> As I said in earlier postings, it means
>"making a decision after considering the issue a lot". I totally agree
>with John Holmes and would like to quote him here: "... 'take a
>decision' sounds rather like 'adopt a decision'. I'd picture a
>committee considering several different options and deciding which one
>to take or adopt as official."


A Canadian would generally not say either of those. "Came to a
decision" or "decided", perhaps with other qualifiers ("decided, after
2 days of deliberation") would be entirely idiomatic.

"Take a decision"? No.

LFS

unread,
Aug 12, 2007, 10:33:09 AM8/12/07
to
Paul Wolff wrote:

Wouldn't you just decide? It's much easier.

--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Oleg Lego

unread,
Aug 12, 2007, 10:37:41 AM8/12/07
to
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 12:12:02 -0000, Farhad posted:

>On Aug 12, 2:34 pm, t...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote:
>
>> You said Americans say both "take" and "make".
>
>Both Americans and British people say "take a decision" as well as
>"make a decision". However, "make a decision" is more frequently used
>in both American and British English than "take a decision".
>
>
>> Many non-native speakers use British English.
>> These same people would probably speak of "rubbish" instead of "trash"
>> and of "car parks" instead of "parking lots."
>
>Dear Donna, you make overgeneralizations very easily based on
>absolutely no sufficient evidence. The non-native speakers you have
>met might have learned to speak in British English. But they are only
>the non-native speakers you have met. Most of non-native speakers I
>have met talk in American English. I'm not by any means suggesting
>that most non-native speakers talk in American English. Perhaps, some
>research needs to be done to see which variety of English is more
>learned by non-native speakers. My intuition is that American English
>is learned by more non-native speakers because of the highly
>successful American movies and the fact that more international
>students tend to apply for American universities.
>
>
>> If you mean, you no longer think that Americans say "take a decision,"
>> fine. That's all I wanted.
>
>No. I don't mean that.

Your name is immediately recognizable as being of foreign origin (to
Canadians and Americans), but I can assure you that even if you posted
as "Bill Smith", something that included the phrase "take a decision",
any Canadian or American would think something like "This fella ain't
from around here."

>> If you're sure you read them correctly, then they got it backwards. The
>> British may use both, but the Americans don't use "take".
>
>I read them again. That's what OALD says.

OALD is not infallible. For example, you will find many instances of
abbreviations, like "sb" for "somebody, or "sth" for "something", and
it would appear that they do not warn their users (or do not warn them
strongly enough) that the use of these abbreviations outside
discussions with their ESL or EFL instructors will immediately inform
every native English speaker that the writer is not a native English
speaker.

You have been told by quite a few people here, that you are wrong
about the phrase. It's nothing to be ashamed of. Deal with it and move
on.


R H Draney

unread,
Aug 12, 2007, 10:37:27 AM8/12/07
to
LFS filted:

>
>Paul Wolff wrote:
>
>> I'm not quite convinced, but if I decided to emigrate I'd definitely
>> take the decision rather than make one.
>
>Wouldn't you just decide? It's much easier.

Did you ever have to make up your mind?...r


--
"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"

LFS

unread,
Aug 12, 2007, 10:39:40 AM8/12/07
to
R H Draney wrote:

> LFS filted:
>
>>Paul Wolff wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I'm not quite convinced, but if I decided to emigrate I'd definitely
>>>take the decision rather than make one.
>>
>>Wouldn't you just decide? It's much easier.
>
>
> Did you ever have to make up your mind?...r
>
>

How unkind you are, r.

Farhad

unread,
Aug 12, 2007, 11:06:21 AM8/12/07
to
tony cooper, Donna Richoux, Robert Lieblich, Oleg Lego, Dominic
Bojarski, do you all find the sentences below non-native English?

1. No decision will be taken on the matter until next week.
2. Who took the decision to go ahead with the project?
3. We talked for a long time but couldn't take a decision.
4. I hope you've taken the right decision.

The first two sentences are taken from Oxford Advanced Learner's
Dictionary, 6th edition. Sentences 3 and 4 are taken from Longman
Lexicon of Contemporary English.

Also, Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 10th eidition, has
given the following definition for "take" (among other definitions, of
course!):

"To make (a decision) esp. with finality or authority"

The American Heritage Dictionary, 4th edition, has used "take" with
"decision" under the entry of "take" on page 835:

"To make or perform: take a decision."

Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English has also given lots of
examples for "take a decision", but, unfortunately, since I don't have
it here right now, I can't quote the examples and definitions.

Farhad

Paul Wolff

unread,
Aug 12, 2007, 11:04:51 AM8/12/07
to
LFS <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote

>R H Draney wrote:
>
>> LFS filted:
>>
>>>Paul Wolff wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I'm not quite convinced, but if I decided to emigrate I'd definitely
>>>>take the decision rather than make one.
>>>
>>>Wouldn't you just decide? It's much easier.
>> Did you ever have to make up your mind?...r
>>
>How unkind you are, r.
>
My best decisions are years in the weighing and the balancing. Why,
there's one that I began in 1979 that I haven't completed yet, though by
now I've a pretty good idea how it'll turn out.
--
Paul

Robert Lieblich

unread,
Aug 12, 2007, 11:34:35 AM8/12/07
to
Farhad wrote:
>
> tony cooper, Donna Richoux, Robert Lieblich, Oleg Lego, Dominic
> Bojarski, do you all find the sentences below non-native English?
>
> 1. No decision will be taken on the matter until next week.
> 2. Who took the decision to go ahead with the project?
> 3. We talked for a long time but couldn't take a decision.
> 4. I hope you've taken the right decision.

None of these is idiomatic Standard American English. Where did you
find them? From what else I've seen, it may be idiomatic in other
Englishes. The issue isn't native vs. non-native. It's American vs.
other.



> The first two sentences are taken from Oxford Advanced Learner's
> Dictionary, 6th edition. Sentences 3 and 4 are taken from Longman
> Lexicon of Contemporary English.

Aha! OALD and Longman both cover multiple varieties of English. so
this proves nothing about American English, which is all I am
discussing. When OALD implies that "take a decision" is available in
multiple Englishes and "make a decision" is British, it is simply
wrong. Even lexicographers nod.

> Also, Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 10th eidition, has
> given the following definition for "take" (among other definitions, of
> course!):
>
> "To make (a decision) esp. with finality or authority"

The M-W Collegiate is not limited to American usages. Without knowing
who committed the usages that led M-W to include this particular item,
you don't know whether they're American usages or otherwise.



> The American Heritage Dictionary, 4th edition, has used "take" with
> "decision" under the entry of "take" on page 835:
>
> "To make or perform: take a decision."

I have AHD3 in hard copy. It contains as an example a complete
sentence using "take a decisoin." But AHD, like M-W, is not limited
to American English. So without knowing the provenance of the
example, you don't know anything.

On top of which, there's no question that rare examples of "take a
decision" can be found in the speech and writing of speakers of
American English. Lots of isolated examples or all sorts of usages
can be found. That doesn't make them Standard American English. It
makes them isolated examples.



> Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English has also given lots of
> examples for "take a decision", but, unfortunately, since I don't have
> it here right now, I can't quote the examples and definitions.

Again, that doesn't mean that any of them are American. When an
American posts to this thread that in his or her experience of
American English "take a decision" is commonplace and unexceptionable,
I may reconsider.

tony cooper

unread,
Aug 12, 2007, 11:37:43 AM8/12/07
to

--


Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

tony cooper

unread,
Aug 12, 2007, 11:46:15 AM8/12/07
to
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 15:06:21 -0000, Farhad <fvaf...@gmail.com> wrote:

>tony cooper, Donna Richoux, Robert Lieblich, Oleg Lego, Dominic
>Bojarski, do you all find the sentences below non-native English?
>
>1. No decision will be taken on the matter until next week.

Not idiomatic AmE to me. "Made" should replace "taken".

>2. Who took the decision to go ahead with the project?

Not idiomatic AmE to me. "Made" should replace "took".

>3. We talked for a long time but couldn't take a decision.

Not idiomatic AmE to me. "Make" should replace "take".

>4. I hope you've taken the right decision.

Not idiomatic AmE to me. "Made" should replace "taken".

I would not utter the sentences that you have offered. I would not
expect any native English speaker to utter them.

If I would hear any of the above sentences, I would expect to be on a
telephone call to a call center half-way around the world.


>
>The first two sentences are taken from Oxford Advanced Learner's
>Dictionary, 6th edition. Sentences 3 and 4 are taken from Longman
>Lexicon of Contemporary English.

Don't care. They are not idiomatic to AmE.

>Also, Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 10th eidition, has
>given the following definition for "take" (among other definitions, of
>course!):
>
>"To make (a decision) esp. with finality or authority"

Don't care. It is not idiomatic AmE.

>The American Heritage Dictionary, 4th edition, has used "take" with
>"decision" under the entry of "take" on page 835:
>
>"To make or perform: take a decision."

Don't care. It is not idiomatic AmE.


>
>Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English has also given lots of
>examples for "take a decision", but, unfortunately, since I don't have
>it here right now, I can't quote the examples and definitions.

Don't care. It is not idiomatic AmE.

Errors are possible in any publication.

http://www.gallerym.com/work.cfm?ID=198

J. W. Love

unread,
Aug 12, 2007, 11:49:35 AM8/12/07
to
On Aug 12, 11:06?am, Farhad <fvafa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> tony cooper, Donna Richoux, Robert Lieblich, Oleg Lego, Dominic
> Bojarski, do you all find the sentences below non-native English?
>
> 1. No decision will be taken on the matter until next week.
> 2. Who took the decision to go ahead with the project?
> 3. We talked for a long time but couldn't take a decision.
> 4. I hope you've taken the right decision.

All four sentences, though grammatical & intelligible, are unlikely to
be uttered by a native speaker of American English. How many more
knowledgeable native speakers have to chime in before you're persuaded
of the truth of this assertion?

J. W. Love

unread,
Aug 12, 2007, 11:55:38 AM8/12/07
to
On Aug 12, 11:46?am, tony cooper <tony_cooper...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 15:06:21 -0000, Farhad <fvafa...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >3. We talked for a long time but couldn't take a decision.
> Not idiomatic AmE to me. "Make" should replace "take".

On this one, _reach_ and _come to_ may be likelier even than _make._

tony cooper

unread,
Aug 12, 2007, 12:09:24 PM8/12/07
to
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 08:55:38 -0700, "J. W. Love" <lov...@aol.com>
wrote:

Yes, there are options. The point is that "take" is not one of them.

Robert Lieblich

unread,
Aug 12, 2007, 12:11:55 PM8/12/07
to

In American English (lest we set off Farhad again).

Dominic Bojarski

unread,
Aug 12, 2007, 12:26:20 PM8/12/07
to

All four would be so unusually in American English, that it would be
impossible to defend them as standard American English at all. If
Tony, Donna, Robert, Oleg, and I have never heard this in our lives,
rest assured that very few other Americans have, either.

All four sentences are certainly not acceptable in American English.
Even in Canadian English, which is much more accepting of Briticisms,
they are unacceptable to the point that, as I noted before, one
Canadian journalist said he would "bitch-slap" anyone who used "to
take a decision".

And yes, if I saw or heard any of these sentences, I would assume they
were written or spoken by a non-native speaker. If I saw or heard a
non-American native speaker using them, I would notice it immediately,
and would think it was unusual. If I saw or heard an American or a non-
native speaker using them, I would say that it was just plain wrong.

I have no idea why you insist on relying on your dictionaries when you
have been told by at least five well educated, knowledgeable native
speakers that the dictionaries are either mistaken in this case, or
are simply recording a non-American usage or an extremely seldom
(practically unheard of) American usage.

In any case, you, as a non-native speaker, should never use "to take a
decision". Even in the dialects in which it is used, it is far less
frequent than "make a decision".

Judging from the answers from the British English speakers, the
meaning is subtly different, too. The fact that the British speakers
have great difficulty in pin-pointing the distinction means that you,
as a non-native speaker, will probably never understand it. Don't feel
bad; I probably never will, either.

In other words, "take a decision" should only be used by native
speaker whose dialect already allows it.

You seem not to fully understand what a dictionary represents, and how
it should be used, especially by non-native speakers. A dictionary is
not the Bible.

Dominic Bojarski


bri...@wsu.edu

unread,
Aug 12, 2007, 1:12:36 PM8/12/07
to
Nice, lively discussion. Thanks all, for confirming my impression that
Americans rarely "take a decision."

It would be interesting to know if the expression "take a meeting,"
popularised in the U.S. in the 80s, is used in the UK at all. Not that
I like it much even in the U.S.


Skitt

unread,
Aug 12, 2007, 1:14:06 PM8/12/07
to

Yeah, but it might take a decision by the Supreme Court to enforce that.

Maybe we could influence the results if we arrange a boxing match or two
with the justices, and take a decision or two from them (or over them).

The two sentences above are legitimate and idiomatic AmE usages that can
screw up Google counts, but they they have meanings much different from the
one being discussed.

I do not box or wrestle, so I don't take decisions. I do, however, take
some decisions made by others with a grain of salt.
--
Skitt

Farhad

unread,
Aug 12, 2007, 1:46:23 PM8/12/07
to
This discussion can be regarded as a sort of research. The null
hypothesis is that native speakers of American English do NOT say
"take a decision". To reject the null hypothesis, the researcher needs
a sample of Americans who are representatives of the whole population
of Americans. Four or five people are NOT enough to meet the
requirement.

But in case you think you four or five people are quite representative
of the whole population of Americans, then how come George W. Bush,
Bill Clinton, Noam Chomsky, Noah Webster, and Brad Silberling have
frequently used "take a decision" in their speeches and writings?


Check the following links to see Americans who have used "take" with
"decision".

This one is by President George W. Bush:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1584/is_nSUP6-7_v3/ai_12882443/pg_69

"Urges the Security Council of the United Nations to TAKE a decision
on an early deployment of UN peace-keeping forces in Yugoslavia
insisting that all parties concerned effectively implement all
relevant ...,"

"Welcomes the decision TAKEN by the Chairman of the Conference on
Yugoslavia, Lord Carrington, to reconvene the Conference, which
remains the appropriate forum for reaching a durable and comprehensive
settlement of the crisis, ..."

Another example from President Bush:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/12/20051219-2.html

"That's why I TOOK the decision I took on the NSA decision, because I
understand how dangerous they are. And they want to hit us again."

Still another example from President Bush:

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Bush_National_Guard_bust_unveiling_was_0607.html

"I TOOK the decision after the ultimatum," Bush said emphatically.

This one is from the great American linguist, Noam Chomsky:

http://www.zmag.org/Chomsky/ni/ni-c10-s24.html

"He TOOK the decision 'to conduct the civic conflict at a different
level, in a different context.' In short, there is no difference
between La Prensa and the contras, apart from tactical decisions."

This one is from another American figure, Bill Clinton:

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/labour2002/story/0,,803564,00.html

We should actually be glad, though, because there were seven
Republicans and only two Democrats on the Supreme Court and two
Republicans, God bless them, they will be rewarded in heaven, they
actually TOOK the decision that we should count votes when the
American people vote, and I appreciate that.

I don't know if this one is American or Canadian:

http://www.digitallard.com/editorial/25/index.htm

BRAD SILBERLING: When I TOOK the decision to take the movie I said I'd
obviously do it with the right to refusal, I'm not going to give in to
anything. I asked the studio how they were going to deal with the
sequel. But they didn't want to talk about it until the first film was
out. It's amazing; a script has not yet been worked on for the sequel,
which I find a bit baffling.

And the American lexicographer, Noah Webster, uses the phrase three
times:

http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache:SXp-fBa6X0UJ:www.ttparliament.org/hansard/senate/1998/hs980127.pdf+%22took+the+decision%22+noah+webster&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2

Farhad

Robert Lieblich

unread,
Aug 12, 2007, 1:54:21 PM8/12/07
to
Farhad wrote:
>
> This discussion can be regarded as a sort of research. The null
> hypothesis is that native speakers of American English do NOT say
> "take a decision". To reject the null hypothesis, the researcher needs
> a sample of Americans who are representatives of the whole population
> of Americans. Four or five people are NOT enough to meet the
> requirement.
>
> But in case you think you four or five people are quite representative
> of the whole population of Americans, then how come George W. Bush,
> Bill Clinton, Noam Chomsky, Noah Webster, and Brad Silberling have
> frequently used "take a decision" in their speeches and writings?
>
> Check the following links to see Americans who have used "take" with
> "decision".
>
> This one is by President George W. Bush:

First of all, NEVER offer anything said by George W. Bush as a sample
of standard American English.

Otherwise, the fact that an occasional politician occasionally uses
"take a decision" or a vairant simply establishes what no one denies
-- that the usage does occur in American English. No one argues that
it never occurs. (Note that Bill Clinton was a Rhodes Scholar. God
knows what sort of speech habits he picked up at Oxford, although I
doubt he acquired "brung" there.) In the almost innumerable volume of
utterances in English, you can find one example of almost anything
short of "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously." No one is arguing
that "take a decision" is a mythical beast like the unicorn, so
finding an example of the usage here and there isn't like finding a
unicorn.

The OP seems satisfied with our responses to his inquiry. Give it up.

Dominic Bojarski

unread,
Aug 12, 2007, 3:14:40 PM8/12/07
to
On Aug 12, 7:46 pm, Farhad <fvafa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This discussion can be regarded as a sort of research. The null
> hypothesis is that native speakers of American English do NOT say
> "take a decision". To reject the null hypothesis, the researcher needs
> a sample of Americans who are representatives of the whole population
> of Americans. Four or five people are NOT enough to meet the
> requirement.
>
> But in case you think you four or five people are quite representative
> of the whole population of Americans, then how come George W. Bush,
> Bill Clinton, Noam Chomsky, Noah Webster, and Brad Silberling have
> frequently used "take a decision" in their speeches and writings?
>
> Check the following links to see Americans who have used "take" with
> "decision".
>
> This one is by President George W. Bush:
>
> http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1584/is_nSUP6-7_v3/ai_12882443...

>
> "Urges the Security Council of the United Nations to TAKE a decision
> on an early deployment of UN peace-keeping forces in Yugoslavia
> insisting that all parties concerned effectively implement all
> relevant ...,"
>
> "Welcomes the decision TAKEN by the Chairman of the Conference on
> Yugoslavia, Lord Carrington, to reconvene the Conference, which
> remains the appropriate forum for reaching a durable and comprehensive
> settlement of the crisis, ..."
>
> Another example from President Bush:
>
> http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/12/20051219-2.html
>
> "That's why I TOOK the decision I took on the NSA decision, because I
> understand how dangerous they are. And they want to hit us again."
>
> Still another example from President Bush:
>
> http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Bush_National_Guard_bust_unveiling_...

>
> "I TOOK the decision after the ultimatum," Bush said emphatically.
>
> This one is from the great American linguist, Noam Chomsky:
>
> http://www.zmag.org/Chomsky/ni/ni-c10-s24.html
>
> "He TOOK the decision 'to conduct the civic conflict at a different
> level, in a different context.' In short, there is no difference
> between La Prensa and the contras, apart from tactical decisions."
>
> This one is from another American figure, Bill Clinton:
>
> http://politics.guardian.co.uk/labour2002/story/0,,803564,00.html
>
> We should actually be glad, though, because there were seven
> Republicans and only two Democrats on the Supreme Court and two
> Republicans, God bless them, they will be rewarded in heaven, they
> actually TOOK the decision that we should count votes when the
> American people vote, and I appreciate that.
>
> I don't know if this one is American or Canadian:
>
> http://www.digitallard.com/editorial/25/index.htm
>
> BRAD SILBERLING: When I TOOK the decision to take the movie I said I'd
> obviously do it with the right to refusal, I'm not going to give in to
> anything. I asked the studio how they were going to deal with the
> sequel. But they didn't want to talk about it until the first film was
> out. It's amazing; a script has not yet been worked on for the sequel,
> which I find a bit baffling.
>
> And the American lexicographer, Noah Webster, uses the phrase three
> times:
>
> http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache:SXp-fBa6X0UJ:www.ttparliament.or...
>
> Farhad

You might hear a rare American occasionally use "shall" as the
auxiliary for the future tense, too. Nevertheless, this is very far
from standard contemporary American usage.

It's a matter of frequency. You seem to think that the ratio between
"take a decision" and "make a decision" in American speech and writing
is on the order of 1:10 to 1:100. It's more on the order of 1:100,000
to 1:1,000,000.

As for your examples, Bush is not exactly considered a authority in
the English language (he often makes basic mistakes when he speaks),
Clinton studied at Oxford, and Noah Webster has been dead for 164
years. If we dug him up and reanimated him, he would certainly not
speak standard contemporary American English.

As far as Chomsky and Silverling are concerned, the usage would be
considered highly idiosyncratic. It may be a Briticism they adopted
for some reason. Educated Americans sometimes do pick up Briticisms,
either consciously or unconsciously, and vice versa.

There is also a remote possibility that, at least in Chomsky's case,
the usage is a survival of the non-native English he grew up hearing
on a daily basis during his childhood. Chomsky's parents were not
native English speakers.

As far as you logical test is concerned, it's not valid. Nobody has
said that "to take a decision" is NEVER said or written in American
English, just that they have NEVER heard it, which means that it is
exceedlingly rare. Something so rare cannot be considered standard
American until a significant proportion of educated speakers start to
use it, which has not yet occurred with "to take a decision".

Dominic Bojarski


Donna Richoux

unread,
Aug 12, 2007, 3:21:42 PM8/12/07
to
Robert Lieblich <r_s_li...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Farhad wrote:
> >
> > Check the following links to see Americans who have used "take" with
> > "decision".
> >
> > This one is by President George W. Bush:
>
> First of all, NEVER offer anything said by George W. Bush as a sample
> of standard American English.

Furthermore, don't confuse George W. Bush with George Bush, who was
actually president at the time that report was issued (1992).

Furtherly-more, no one should think that any president personally writes
87-page reports. The section in question appears to be written by the
"Committee of Senior Officials" of the "Conference on Security and
Cooperation in Europe."

Furtherlee-further, a little research will show that is a group composed
of dozens of member nations, not an American group.

--
Donna Richoux

tony cooper

unread,
Aug 12, 2007, 3:35:00 PM8/12/07
to
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:46:23 -0000, Farhad <fvaf...@gmail.com> wrote:

>This discussion can be regarded as a sort of research. The null
>hypothesis is that native speakers of American English do NOT say
>"take a decision". To reject the null hypothesis, the researcher needs
>a sample of Americans who are representatives of the whole population
>of Americans. Four or five people are NOT enough to meet the
>requirement.

>But in case you think you four or five people are quite representative
>of the whole population of Americans,

You're not much of a researcher. The four or five people who are
insisting that you are wrong are not saying *they* don't use the
construction. They are saying that they don't use it, don't hear it,
and don't see it. Considering that each of these four or five people
have more than five decades of exposure to AmE, each of these four or
five people are the type to read extensively, and each of these four
or five people has been exposed to thousands of personal conversations
with thousands of people, their opinions do reflect a quite
representative view of the whole of the population.

Your requirement has been met.

Robin Bignall

unread,
Aug 12, 2007, 5:40:47 PM8/12/07
to
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 10:12:36 -0700, "bri...@wsu.edu" <bri...@wsu.edu>
wrote:

If it means "meet with" or "organise a meeting about" then I can't say
that I ever heard it in BrE. In a sentence such as "It will take a
meeting or two to solve this problem", it could be okay.
--
Robin
Herts, England

Peter Duncanson

unread,
Aug 12, 2007, 5:58:26 PM8/12/07
to
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 10:12:36 -0700, "bri...@wsu.edu"
<bri...@wsu.edu> wrote:

I've not met it in the UK, but if I did I would assume that "to take
a meeting" means "to chair a meeting".

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

bri...@wsu.edu

unread,
Aug 12, 2007, 7:41:48 PM8/12/07
to
I associate "take a meeting" mainly with Hollywoodl, where people
would say that they had to "take a meeting" (have a meeting) to work
out a film proposal or something similar.

See http://www.finaldraft.com/events-and-services/take-a-meeting/ and
http://www.austinfilmfestival.com/new/tam.

But I think it was picked up in the business world. There are lots of
examples on the Web.

Paul Brians

Robert Bannister

unread,
Aug 12, 2007, 9:31:56 PM8/12/07
to
Donna Richoux wrote:


> That's easily explained. Many non-native speakers use British English.


> These same people would probably speak of "rubbish" instead of "trash"

> and of "car parks" instead of "parking lots." Briticisms. Or
> "Britishisms," which is a more popular spelling but looks odd to me.

Can you please explain more about "parking lots"? I was, of course,
aware of the expression, but I assumed it could only apply to areas of
land that can be described as "lots" (where "we" might prefer to say
"blocks"). For example, "we" often call a multi-storey carpark a
"carpark" - can this also be a "parking lot" in American?

--
Rob Bannister

Robert Bannister

unread,
Aug 12, 2007, 9:34:31 PM8/12/07
to
Farhad wrote:

> tony cooper, Donna Richoux, Robert Lieblich, Oleg Lego, Dominic
> Bojarski, do you all find the sentences below non-native English?
>
> 1. No decision will be taken on the matter until next week.
> 2. Who took the decision to go ahead with the project?
> 3. We talked for a long time but couldn't take a decision.
> 4. I hope you've taken the right decision.

I'm not American, but I find 3 very strange. For me, it would have to be
"reach" or "arrive at".

--
Rob Bannister

tony cooper

unread,
Aug 12, 2007, 11:11:50 PM8/12/07
to

A parking lot is a what some might call a "car park". It's
ground-level space used to park cars. A multi-storied parking
facility would be called a "parking garage" by ordinary Americans, and
a "parking facility" or a "multi-level parking facility" by city
planners and city officials.

While there are many multi-level parking garages, a Brit might be
surprised at the number of parking lots in US cities. We have more
space to waste.

Oleg Lego

unread,
Aug 13, 2007, 12:44:19 AM8/13/07
to
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 15:06:21 -0000, Farhad posted:

>tony cooper, Donna Richoux, Robert Lieblich, Oleg Lego, Dominic
>Bojarski, do you all find the sentences below non-native English?
>
>1. No decision will be taken on the matter until next week.
>2. Who took the decision to go ahead with the project?
>3. We talked for a long time but couldn't take a decision.
>4. I hope you've taken the right decision.

None of these will be heard in Canadian English, and according to all
the Americans who have responded, will not be heard in American
English.


Oleg Lego

unread,
Aug 13, 2007, 12:48:03 AM8/13/07
to
On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:34:31 +0800, Robert Bannister posted:

Or "We talked for a long time but couldn't decide."

Similarly,
For 1. "The matter will not be decided until next week."
For 2. "Who decided to go ahead with the project?"


Oleg Lego

unread,
Aug 13, 2007, 1:04:53 AM8/13/07
to
On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 23:11:50 -0400, tony cooper posted:

>On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:31:56 +0800, Robert Bannister
><rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>>Donna Richoux wrote:
>>
>>
>>> That's easily explained. Many non-native speakers use British English.
>>> These same people would probably speak of "rubbish" instead of "trash"
>>> and of "car parks" instead of "parking lots." Briticisms. Or
>>> "Britishisms," which is a more popular spelling but looks odd to me.
>>
>>Can you please explain more about "parking lots"? I was, of course,
>>aware of the expression, but I assumed it could only apply to areas of
>>land that can be described as "lots" (where "we" might prefer to say
>>"blocks"). For example, "we" often call a multi-storey carpark a
>>"carpark" - can this also be a "parking lot" in American?
>
>A parking lot is a what some might call a "car park". It's
>ground-level space used to park cars. A multi-storied parking
>facility would be called a "parking garage" by ordinary Americans, and
>a "parking facility" or a "multi-level parking facility" by city
>planners and city officials.

I have also heard folks call the multi-level ones "parking lots", but
I think it is used in a generic sense rather than a descriptive one.
In many parts of Canada, they would be most commonly known as
"parkades".

Peter Moylan

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Aug 13, 2007, 10:00:44 AM8/13/07
to
I think it needs a big yellow taxi in order to qualify.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

Mike M

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Aug 13, 2007, 10:47:10 AM8/13/07
to
On 10 Aug, 19:09, "bri...@wsu.edu" <bri...@wsu.edu> wrote:
> Poking around on the Web I find discussions of "take a decision" vs.
> "make a decision" indicating that the former expression is mostly
> British, though it crops up in American usage occasionally. What I
> couldn't determine quickly was whether UK usage experts deplore "take
> a decision" or consider it standard usage.
>
> Feedback from UK residents welcome.
>

I would neither take one nor make one.

I would simply decide.

Mike M


Amethyst Deceiver

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Aug 13, 2007, 11:09:01 AM8/13/07
to

I'm not terribly sure they'd be heard in British English, where we /do/ use
"take a decision". They all look wrong.

--
Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary


Pat Durkin

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Aug 13, 2007, 12:01:42 PM8/13/07
to

"tony cooper" <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:9givb3pc4rcok9rr0...@4ax.com...

In my area, ordinary Americans most often refer to the multi-level
parking structures as "parking ramps", and I have heard of "off-street
ramps". Parking space in underground structures is most often referred
to as "underground parking (_ramp_ is not usually stated)", even if
multilevel.


tony cooper

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Aug 13, 2007, 12:32:17 PM8/13/07
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On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 11:01:42 -0500, "Pat Durkin" <dur...@sbc.com>
wrote:

That would confuse me. The "ramp" is the inclined access to other
levels of the parking garage. I go into the parking garage, and up or
down the ramps.

We don't have underground parking facilities in Florida. With the
water table as it is, we'd only use an underground facility to park a
submarine.

R H Draney

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Aug 13, 2007, 2:22:48 PM8/13/07
to
Peter Moylan filted:

>
>Robert Bannister wrote:
>>
>> Can you please explain more about "parking lots"? I was, of course,
>> aware of the expression, but I assumed it could only apply to areas of
>> land that can be described as "lots" (where "we" might prefer to say
>> "blocks"). For example, "we" often call a multi-storey carpark a
>> "carpark" - can this also be a "parking lot" in American?
>>
>I think it needs a big yellow taxi in order to qualify.

That's Canadian, innit....r


--
"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"

Mark Barratt

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Aug 13, 2007, 2:53:16 PM8/13/07
to
Paul Wolff wrote:
> LFS <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote
>> R H Draney wrote:
>>
>>> LFS filted:
>>>
>>>> Paul Wolff wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I'm not quite convinced, but if I decided to emigrate I'd
>>>>> definitely take the decision rather than make one.
>>>>
>>>> Wouldn't you just decide? It's much easier.
>>> Did you ever have to make up your mind?...r
>>>
>> How unkind you are, r.
>>
> My best decisions are years in the weighing and the balancing. Why,
> there's one that I began in 1979 that I haven't completed yet, though by
> now I've a pretty good idea how it'll turn out.

You do realise that it's too late to vote for Jimmy Carter now,
don't you?

--
Mark Barratt
Angoltanár budapesten
http://www.geocities.com/nyelvmark

Oleg Lego

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Aug 13, 2007, 3:11:06 PM8/13/07
to
On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 20:53:16 +0200, Mark Barratt posted:

Of course it isn't! It is, on the other hand, too late to have an
effect on the outcome.

Mark Barratt

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Aug 13, 2007, 3:19:57 PM8/13/07
to

A good point. How does one "put up a parking lot" if, as the Merkins
assert, a parking lot can't be a building? Maybe it can be in Canada?

Paul Wolff

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Aug 13, 2007, 4:58:15 PM8/13/07
to
Mark Barratt <nyel...@yahoo.com> wrote
Not what I was thinking of when I wrote the above, but my younger
daughter was born in 1979 and marries in a fortnight. That's another
box ticked (only joking, young lady!). See, it's taken her just as long
to decide.

Presumably if I had been of the Jimmy Carter electorate, I'd have
written 'checked' instead.
--
Paul
In bocca al Lupo!

tony cooper

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Aug 13, 2007, 5:10:41 PM8/13/07
to
On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 21:19:57 +0200, Mark Barratt <nyel...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

I don't recall an American "asserting" that a parking lot can't be a
building. We call ground-level areas set aside for parking "parking
lots". We call multi-story parking facilities a "parking garage" or a
"parking facility" (and maybe another name or two).

However, if we ask someone where there's a "parking lot", we're really
asking for directions to a place to park our car; ground-level or
multi-story. We don't reject the concept that a multi-level facility
is a parking lot.

"Put up" is a bit vague. Even ground-level parking lot has something
to "put up": a building to shelter the attendant, a fence, a gate,
and a paved surface. Not all parking lots have all of these
"features", but most have some of them.

Paul Wolff

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Aug 13, 2007, 5:10:30 PM8/13/07
to
Amethyst Deceiver <sp...@lindsayendell.co.uk> wrote

>Oleg Lego wrote:
>> On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 15:06:21 -0000, Farhad posted:
>>
>>> tony cooper, Donna Richoux, Robert Lieblich, Oleg Lego, Dominic
>>> Bojarski, do you all find the sentences below non-native English?
>>>
>>> 1. No decision will be taken on the matter until next week.
>>> 2. Who took the decision to go ahead with the project?
>>> 3. We talked for a long time but couldn't take a decision.
>>> 4. I hope you've taken the right decision.
>>
>> None of these will be heard in Canadian English, and according to all
>> the Americans who have responded, will not be heard in American
>> English.
>
>I'm not terribly sure they'd be heard in British English, where we /do/ use
>"take a decision". They all look wrong.
>
I think 1 and 2 are just fine in the right context (formal
deliberation), but 3 and 4 do indeed look wrong, perhaps because they
are using 'take' with language that suggests informal circumstances.

In 3 the language would work if there was an explanation of the
inability, something like "...because we didn't have a quorum", although
even then 'talked' doesn't sound serious enough -- try 'deliberated' --
and why not 'the' decision? That's better: "We deliberated for a long
time but couldn't take the decision until the Minister returned from
holiday."
--
Paul

Paul Wolff

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Aug 13, 2007, 5:12:58 PM8/13/07
to
Peter Moylan <pe...@DIESPAMMERSDIEpmoylan.org> wrote
Ah, I remember that song -- a Chubby Checker, wasn't it?

Oleg Lego

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Aug 13, 2007, 6:59:05 PM8/13/07
to
On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 22:12:58 +0100, Paul Wolff posted:

Not Cab Calloway?

<Joanie, if you're reading this, sorry.>

Robert Bannister

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Aug 13, 2007, 8:13:47 PM8/13/07
to
Amethyst Deceiver wrote:

> Oleg Lego wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 15:06:21 -0000, Farhad posted:
>>
>>
>>>tony cooper, Donna Richoux, Robert Lieblich, Oleg Lego, Dominic
>>>Bojarski, do you all find the sentences below non-native English?
>>>
>>>1. No decision will be taken on the matter until next week.
>>>2. Who took the decision to go ahead with the project?
>>>3. We talked for a long time but couldn't take a decision.
>>>4. I hope you've taken the right decision.
>>
>>None of these will be heard in Canadian English, and according to all
>>the Americans who have responded, will not be heard in American
>>English.
>
>
> I'm not terribly sure they'd be heard in British English, where we /do/ use
> "take a decision". They all look wrong.
>

That's a bit hard. I thought No. 1 was OK.

--
Rob Bannister

Robert Bannister

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Aug 13, 2007, 8:17:10 PM8/13/07
to
tony cooper wrote:

Thanks for the explanation. We have a lot of those too. It seems every
time a building is pulled down, a carpark appears for the year or so it
takes for the developer to find the money to start on the new building.
And in Perth they are always pulling buildings down. It'll be a nice
place if they ever finish building it.

--
Rob Bannister

Jesse Sheidlower

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Aug 13, 2007, 8:55:59 PM8/13/07
to
In article <46BF115A...@yahoo.com>,
Robert Lieblich <r_s_li...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[quoting "decision" in the OALD:]

>1 [C] ~ (on / about sth)| ~ (to do sth) a choice or judgement that you
>make after thinking and talking about what is the best thing to do: to
>take a decision (= to decide) // (BrE) to make a decision (= to
>decide)."
>
>Oxford sometimes gets things wrong, and this is one of those
>times. If Jesse Sheidlower is still googling his name
>periodically, I trust he'll now see this discussion and
>introduce it into the deliberations of his employer.

Indeed. The OALD is simply wrong here. I have passed this
along to an editor responsible for it.

I haven't read this thread closely, but there seems to be some
discussion about the best way to evaluate claims of frequency
esp. as pertains to national varieties of language. One
technique is to search through texts looking for examples of a
particular word or construction, and another is to ask
trustworthy native speakers of the relevant dialect for their
opinion. In some cases these are the best, or even the only,
techniques possible.

However in general, by far the best thing to do is to toss
your query at a balanced corpus and see what comes up. The
whole point of assembling corpora is to be able to get a
massive sample from which you can draw statistically valid
results, which will be more useful than vague statements like
"this seems pretty rare to me" and so forth.

If you search "take a decision" in the Oxford English Corpus
(http://www.askoxford.com/oec for a general introduction), and
do a frequency analysis of the results based on the national
variety, you'll find that while "take a decision" is used in
American English, it is _significantly_ less frequent in
American English than it is in British English. If you look at
"make a decision" you'll get a much more balanced picture
(though even this is more common in British English than in
American English).

Conclusion: "take a decision" is chiefly British. This happens
to match my own native-speaker intuition, for what it's worth.

Best,

Jesse Sheidlower
Oxford English Dictionary

P.S. I didn't bother to look at other national varieties in
this case, as they didn't seem germane to the current
discussion.

Pat Durkin

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Aug 13, 2007, 10:15:46 PM8/13/07
to

"Jesse Sheidlower" <jes...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:f9quiv$5qu$1...@reader1.panix.com...

Now I am truly confused. If "make a decision" is more common in BrE
than in AmE, while "take a decision" is "_significantly_ less
frequent"in AmE than in BrE, do you find that USans are seldom capable
of decision-making (taking)?

Skitt

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Aug 13, 2007, 10:25:10 PM8/13/07
to
Pat Durkin wrote:
> "Jesse Sheidlower" wrote

AmE people are deciders, not decision makers or takers.
--
Skitt

Pat Durkin

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Aug 13, 2007, 10:29:43 PM8/13/07
to

"Skitt" <ski...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:n4SdndQnzJwaj1zb...@comcast.com...

"It has a fascinating setting in Royal Deeside, the area around Braemar
and Ballater, where the Royal Family have spent their summers at
Balmoral Castle since the reign of Queen"

So the Queen has been a Deesider for quite some while.

Robert Lieblich

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Aug 13, 2007, 10:32:13 PM8/13/07
to
Skitt wrote:
>
> Pat Durkin wrote:

[ ... ]

> > Now I am truly confused. If "make a decision" is more common in BrE
> > than in AmE, while "take a decision" is "_significantly_ less
> > frequent"in AmE than in BrE, do you find that USans are seldom capable
> > of decision-making (taking)?

> AmE people are deciders, not decision makers or takers.

Our president is The Decider. Just ask him.

Alan Jones

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Aug 14, 2007, 5:04:41 AM8/14/07
to

That seems exactly right to this Brit.

Alan Jones


Mark Barratt

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Aug 14, 2007, 8:05:21 AM8/14/07
to

Oy! That's Joni.

Peter Moylan

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Aug 14, 2007, 8:54:14 AM8/14/07
to
Robert Lieblich wrote:
> Skitt wrote:

>> AmE people are deciders, not decision makers or takers.
>
> Our president is The Decider. Just ask him.

From the trickles of US political news that reach me now and then, I
have the impression that your President and California's Governor should
swap nicknames.

Oleg Lego

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Aug 14, 2007, 9:28:06 AM8/14/07
to
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 14:05:21 +0200, Mark Barratt posted:

That'll teach me to look things up when I'm not sure. The choice I
made when I grabbed a decision was between "Joanie"and "Joannie".

Mike Lyle

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Aug 13, 2007, 1:45:27 PM8/13/07
to
Amethyst Deceiver wrote:
> Oleg Lego wrote:
>> On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 15:06:21 -0000, Farhad posted:
>>
>>> tony cooper, Donna Richoux, Robert Lieblich, Oleg Lego, Dominic
>>> Bojarski, do you all find the sentences below non-native English?
>>>
>>> 1. No decision will be taken on the matter until next week.
>>> 2. Who took the decision to go ahead with the project?
>>> 3. We talked for a long time but couldn't take a decision.
>>> 4. I hope you've taken the right decision.
>>
>> None of these will be heard in Canadian English, and according to all
>> the Americans who have responded, will not be heard in American
>> English.
>
> I'm not terribly sure they'd be heard in British English, where we
> /do/ use "take a decision". They all look wrong.

I find I've overthought the question, so I'm not sure: I wish I could
remember what I said last time. I won't go so far as to say they all
look wrong. But 3 is certainly wrong; 4 is very uncomfortable; 2 is a
bit uncomfortable; and 1 /as it stands/ is probably better with "taken"
than with "made".

But changing 1 to the more natural "No decision on the matter" seems to
demand "made".

I haven't searched exhaustively, but of the forms I've looked for in
OED, "make" forms outnumber "take" ones 16-6. (I didn't check all for
nationality, but only one of the "takes" was apparently American.)

--
Mike.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Robin Bignall

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Aug 14, 2007, 5:21:21 PM8/14/07
to

Unfortunately, that doesn't make him deciduous, or you could shed him
annually.
--
Robin
Herts, England

Robert Lieblich

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Aug 14, 2007, 6:25:09 PM8/14/07
to
Peter Moylan wrote:
>
> Robert Lieblich wrote:
> > Skitt wrote:
>
> >> AmE people are deciders, not decision makers or takers.
> >
> > Our president is The Decider. Just ask him.
>
> From the trickles of US political news that reach me now and then, I
> have the impression that your President and California's Governor should
> swap nicknames.

Bush is quite decisive much of the time --and firm and resolute.
Unfortunately, he's also almost always wrong.

Garrett Wollman

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Aug 14, 2007, 6:52:57 PM8/14/07
to
In article <7574c354v1nnkunor...@4ax.com>,

He is currently on his summer vacation.... (I would venture to say
that, whoever should be elected next year, he or she will not be
spending four successive Augusts in Texas.)

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wol...@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness

Mark Barratt

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Aug 14, 2007, 9:02:11 PM8/14/07
to

I wouldn't (as a British English teacher) call any of them "wrong".
If I was editing a document, I would certainly change #3 to 'reach'
or 'arrive at', but I'd let the others ride. As for #1, I think I
might even say this myself.

Mark Barratt

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Aug 14, 2007, 9:16:20 PM8/14/07
to

You may have missed a point that Skitt made:

- It will take a decision by the Supreme court to decide this.

Can your corpus software differentiate between this and the "take a
decision" idiom under discussion?

Tony Cooper introduced an even more esoteric interpretation: in
boxing (and perhaps other sports), to 'take the decision' means to
win by decision of the judges.

I suspect that, without human oversight of each instance retrieved
from the corpus, the results are open to debate.

Jesse Sheidlower

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Aug 15, 2007, 9:22:30 AM8/15/07
to
In article <f9tk59$4vo$1...@news.t-online.hu>,
Mark Barratt <nyel...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

[...]

>> Conclusion: "take a decision" is chiefly British. This happens
>> to match my own native-speaker intuition, for what it's worth.

[...]

>You may have missed a point that Skitt made:
>
>- It will take a decision by the Supreme court to decide this.
>
>Can your corpus software differentiate between this and the "take a
>decision" idiom under discussion?
>
>Tony Cooper introduced an even more esoteric interpretation: in
>boxing (and perhaps other sports), to 'take the decision' means to
>win by decision of the judges.
>
>I suspect that, without human oversight of each instance retrieved
>from the corpus, the results are open to debate.

It can't do it automatically, no, but I inspected a sufficiently
large number of the results myself to be able to conclude that
any false hits were statistically negligible.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED

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