Why no traditional martial arts in MMA?
Xavier Stephenson
(TMA) practitioners exhibiting their styles in UFC, Pride and other MMA
organisations?
I'll tell you why: TMAs are not created for sport competition. They are
created to win real fights.
Now, all martial arts are archaic and fraudulent to some degree, since in
the modern era we have readily-available firearms that most people can
get access to. No so-called "martial art" is truly relevant in most
actual combat situations. A TMA won't protect you against even a mugger
on the street, let alone an invading army's soldier or a nuclear bomb.
Combat has transcended hand-to-hand.
But, there are still some situations where one-on-one unarmed fighting
skills may prove useful, such as a bar brawl or road rage incident.
Try that MMA ground-and-pound stuff in a bar, and you'll just get stomped
on by other people. It won't work. Try a "submission hold" and you'll get
a big chunk of your arm bitten out. Try a "clinch" and watch as your
eyeballs are ripped from their sockets and your groin is pulverised into
oblivion. MMA is strictly for a sport environment, where people follow
the rules.
TMAs, which rely on quick and deadly manoeuvres such as pressure point
strikes, throat chops, groin grabs and socket pulls, are rendered
impotent in a rules-laden MMA environment. Therefore, when all of the
effective striking skills have been eliminated, the wrestler gains the
advantage.
A ninja won UFC 3. I wouldn't write off TMAs entirely, but there you have
it.
--
Xavier Stephenson of the legendary Grand Malar Motel
Master of the Kata-Dante, Wielder of Dim Mak
12th degree Black Belt, Open Hand Crushing Style
Professional Ballet Dancer, Benihana Chef
the Bede
"Xavier Stephenson" <xav...@xs4all.space> wrote in message
news:Xns97D5E25624DA1k...@81.174.50.80...
> A ninja won UFC 3.
>
theoriginaldimi
Xavier Stephenson schreef:
The topic has been chewed on over and over and has been used by many
trolls so you get only 3,5/10. But due to the fact that you wrote a
rather lengthy post I'll give you +1 for your efforts.
Final result 4,5/10.
Ray
Xavier Stephenson wrote:
> A ninja won UFC 3. But why aren't there more traditional martial arts
> (TMA) practitioners exhibiting their styles in UFC, Pride and other MMA
> organisations?
You should ask a ninja to be sure. Ask him here:
http://www.askaninja.com/
Scary
Ray wrote:
> Xavier Stephenson wrote:
> > A ninja won UFC 3. But why aren't there more traditional martial arts
> > (TMA) practitioners exhibiting their styles in UFC, Pride and other MMA
> > organisations?
Ninja's need a support mechanism to really dominate.
You never hear about a lone Ninja! They're always connected to
some legion of Doom or Evil Clan.
Scary
Chlor Trimeton
<xav...@xs4all.space> wrote:
>( )||||DA ninja won UFC 3. But why aren't there more traditional martial arts
>( )||||D(TMA) practitioners exhibiting their styles in UFC, Pride and other MMA
>( )||||Dorganisations?
try my Drunken Mantis style you bear hugging sob
bluph...@hotmail.com
> A ninja won UFC 3. But why aren't there more traditional martial arts
> (TMA) practitioners exhibiting their styles in UFC, Pride and other MMA
> organisations?
Not every martial artist wishes to be someone's punch monkey for a few
bits.
> I'll tell you why: TMAs are not created for sport competition. They are
> created to win real fights.
Jiu-Jitsu is a TMA, is it not?
> Now, all martial arts are archaic and fraudulent to some degree, since in
> the modern era we have readily-available firearms that most people can
> get access to. No so-called "martial art" is truly relevant in most
> actual combat situations. A TMA won't protect you against even a mugger
> on the street, let alone an invading army's soldier or a nuclear bomb.
> Combat has transcended hand-to-hand.
A TMA won't help you against a mugger? I guess if the 'mugger' has a
gun, you're in a bit of a pickle.. but otherwise, knowing some form of
self-defence *will* help you.
> But, there are still some situations where one-on-one unarmed fighting
> skills may prove useful, such as a bar brawl or road rage incident.
Always keep a glock in the glove compartiment for road rage disputes.
> Try that MMA ground-and-pound stuff in a bar, and you'll just get stomped
> on by other people. It won't work. Try a "submission hold" and you'll get a big chunk of your arm bitten out.
Perhaps, but I can get the tetanus shot after I pummel the now one
armed asshole.
> MMA is strictly for a sport environment, where people follow
> the rules.
True, while in the octagon. Do you think that skilled MMA guy is going
to follow these same rules when fighting for his life (or for his
pleasure?).
> TMAs, which rely on quick and deadly manoeuvres such as pressure point
> strikes, throat chops, groin grabs and socket pulls, are rendered
> impotent in a rules-laden MMA environment. Therefore, when all of the
> effective striking skills have been eliminated, the wrestler gains the
> advantage.
True. But I'd still argue that Jiu-Jitsu is a "TMA". Maybe I'm
missing the true definition of a Traditional Martial Art.
> A ninja won UFC 3. I wouldn't write off TMAs entirely, but there you have
> it.
Ninja's kick ass.
theoriginaldimi
bluphys...@hotmail.com schreef:
> Xavier Stephenson wrote
> A TMA won't help you against a mugger? I guess if the 'mugger' has a
> gun, you're in a bit of a pickle.. but otherwise, knowing some form of
> self-defence *will* help you.
Not if it is pure junk, repacked and labelled as some mythical self
defence art that will magically help the weakest women to take out the
strongest men. In such a case the over-confidence of the practitioner
(which did not test the techniques against an actual resisting person)
might actually make the situation worse then it already was.
Dimitri
bluph...@hotmail.com
True, a good point, it could probably go without saying that
over-confidence never helped anyone.. but a good, well
placed/practiced kick to the nads, or unexpected thumb to the eye,
followed by a good healthy sprint, could save a woman's life.
Tough call... but I think I'd still lean in favour of being trained for
the potential, than not.
theoriginaldimi
bluphys...@hotmail.com schreef:
Sure but a try for an impossible wrist-lock on a much stronger mugger
might lead to a more violent situation.
> Tough call... but I think I'd still lean in favour of being trained for
> the potential, than not.
Yes, because training is physical exercise which is almost always
healthy. But with regard to self defense aspect there either needs to
be a really good instructor that is honest about the limitations of the
techniques (depending on body strength) or the techniques should from
time to time be tested against a resisting opponent.
Dimitri
Dick Jones
news:Xns97D5E25624DA1k...@81.174.50.80...
> (TMA) practitioners exhibiting their styles in UFC, Pride and other MMA
> organisations?
>
> I'll tell you why: TMAs are not created for sport competition. They are
> created to win real fights.
Ninjas are gay and TMA sucks.
Chris H. Fleming
I saw some ninjas at the mall yesterday.
Or were they moslem women.
Or maybe all moslem women are trained as ninjas.
Which would explain our troubles in the Middle East.
Rabid Weasel
> A ninja won UFC 3. But why aren't there more traditional martial arts
> (TMA) practitioners exhibiting their styles in UFC, Pride and other MMA
> organisations?
People are still working this troll?!?!?!
I'm astounded!
Peace favor your sword (IH),
Kirk
Rabid Weasel
>> A ninja won UFC 3.
[snip]
> The topic has been chewed on over and over and has been used by many
> trolls so you get only 3,5/10. But due to the fact that you wrote a
> rather lengthy post I'll give you +1 for your efforts.
>
> Final result 4,5/10.
I gave him 1 point on the Richman Scale for the troll but he scored an
extra 1.5 for mentioning Ninjas.
Now, if he could have worked *clowns* into it...
Rabid Weasel
>> I'll tell you why: TMAs are not created for sport competition. They are
>> created to win real fights.
>
> Jiu-Jitsu is a TMA, is it not?
Define: Traditional Martial Art
Chris H. Fleming
It's an obvious Loki. People are just having fun.
Badger North
>Ninja's need a support mechanism to really dominate.
> You never hear about a lone Ninja! They're always connected to
>some legion of Doom or Evil Clan.
Well yeah, it just makes financial sense - buying shuriken in bulk is
much cheaper.
Badger Jones
www.youngforest.ca
"Every fighter's got a plan until they get hit in the mouth." - Mike Tyson
Shuurai
> --
> Xavier Stephenson of the legendary Grand Malar Motel
> Master of the Kata-Dante, Wielder of Dim Mak
> 12th degree Black Belt, Open Hand Crushing Style
> Professional Ballet Dancer, Benihana Chef
I give you only 1 point for the troll itself, as it is tired and
overused. However, you get +1 for mentioning ninjas, +.5 for "karate
vs. nuclear weapons", and finally another +.5 for the creative sig.
Chas
> Sure but a try for an impossible wrist-lock on a much stronger mugger
> might lead to a more violent situation.
oh what egregious horseshit.
That's the first thing chicks say; ' oh he might get mad at me'- you know,
in addition to the violent sexual assault that she's just about to endure.
She's obviously out-gunned, against a stronger and more prepared assailant.
About the only thing she's got going for her is surprise and technique-
unless she doesn't.
Preparation is better than not-preparation.
Bad-preparation is better than no preparation at all.
> Yes, because training is physical exercise which is almost always
> healthy. But with regard to self defense aspect there either needs to
> be a really good instructor that is honest about the limitations of the
> techniques (depending on body strength) or the techniques should from
> time to time be tested against a resisting opponent.
Where are you going to find someone a hundred pounds heavier with a pistol
and a hard-on that would rather fuck you than kick your ass, much less shoot
you?
Rearnakedchoke that motherfucker.
or grease up.
--
Chas
It's Fighting, not Folkdancing!
http://www.jacksandsaps.com/
(blackjacks, saps, practice and conditioning tools)
m0rdant
had come through at least one other fighter. The Ninja only had to win one
match against a tired fighter...
<bluph...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1149163572.9...@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Fraser Johnston
"Rabid Weasel" <lawson@NO19086SPAM+dayton.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.06.01.14.02.18.515569@NO19086SPAM+dayton.net...
> On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 05:06:12 -0700, bluphysted wrote:
>
>>> I'll tell you why: TMAs are not created for sport competition. They are
>>> created to win real fights.
>>
>> Jiu-Jitsu is a TMA, is it not?
>
> Define: Traditional Martial Art
One that doesn't work.
Fraser
Pepi Manguell
"Fraser Johnston" <fra...@jcis.com.au> wrote in message
news:4e9jvdF...@individual.net...
>> Define: Traditional Martial Art
>
> One that doesn't work.
>
> Fraser
Fraser is right, Traditional Martial Arts don't work for me. I can't get any
ass action there; that is why wrestling is the only art that works.
Marcello
lmao...made me actually laugh out loud
Ray
> If I remember correctly, the Ninja was a fresh alternate while his opponent
> had come through at least one other fighter. The Ninja only had to win one
> match against a tired fighter...
That's why he's a Ninja. Did you know what REALLY happened to the guy
he replaced? Bet you don't.
_ berge @hotmail.com.invalid Eric D. Berge
>A ninja won UFC 3
<snip>
2/10 - tired. I'm only giving it that much for good grammar. C'mon,
guys, this theme is just worn completely threadbare. The
streetfighter guy a couple of days ago was a way more amusing troll.
theoriginaldimi
Rabid Weasel schreef:
> On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 05:06:12 -0700, bluphysted wrote:
>
> >> I'll tell you why: TMAs are not created for sport competition. They are
> >> created to win real fights.
> >
> > Jiu-Jitsu is a TMA, is it not?
>
> Define: Traditional Martial Art
TMA: all of the info, techniques etc are taught by one person to
another purely based on history, on tradition. There isthe assumtpion
that these traditional techniques are in teh curriculum for a reason,
that the teaching methods are the way they are because of tradition,
and that they are therefore good.
non-TMA: techniques and learning methods do not rely (solely) on
tradition but are challenged on a regular basis due to (relevant)
sparring and competition
There you have it
Dimitri
Rabid Weasel
Oh c'mon now. He included a *ninja*! That's *gotta* be worth at least
one extra point!
Rabid Weasel
So Karate and TKD aren't TMAs because they have regular sparring sessions.
Got it, thanks. :-)
theoriginaldimi
Rabid Weasel schreef:
Kirk,
That is why I included (relevant) in from of sparring. Sparring just to
"touch" the other guys as happens in many MA's is not relevant for self
defence.
And I would not call all karate and all tkd TMA by definition, imo it
really depends on how it is instructed and practiced.
Dimitri
Rabid Weasel
So hard/heavy contact sparring in Karate or TKD is enough to ensure that
it's not a TMA?
Philippe
today?
;)
P.
--
Unless otherwise indicated, anything I write is either garnered from
experience or pulled out of my ass, depending on situational needs..
Chas
> That is why I included (relevant) in from of sparring. Sparring just to
> "touch" the other guys as happens in many MA's is not relevant for self
> defence.
sure it is-
it's called 'training', as opposed to 'fighting'.
The disconnect is that most people don't train but for a few hours, a couple
of times a week- and that mitigated enough not to carry injuries to work
with them.
> And I would not call all karate and all tkd TMA by definition, imo it
> really depends on how it is instructed and practiced.
No shit-
the same malls that have 'self-defense' kiosks sell cheap goods and bad
food-
where's the surprise when the martial arts aren't palatable either?
Rabid Weasel
> Man, you're starting to sound like Chas... Or are you just being ornery
> today?
> ;)
>
> P.
Truth is, a little of both. It's Friday so I'm in a good mood and am
trolling just a smidge. Additionally though, the given definition of
"Traditional Martial Arts" just didn't seem good to me. I didn't really
like it so I was just poking and prodding some, you know, in a good
natured, "I'm playing Devil's Advocate" sorta way.
"Traditional Martial Art" seems to be something that every BJJ or MMA
fan/player knows but can't really explain. Personally, I think that it's
a misplaced term. I don't think the term "Traditional Martial Art" is
accurate to describe the concept that they want to associate with it.
Personally, I like the more descriptive terms of "Alive Resistance
Training" and it's cousins.
theoriginaldimi
Chas schreef:
> "theoriginaldimi" <theorig...@gmail.com> wrote
> > That is why I included (relevant) in from of sparring. Sparring just to
> > "touch" the other guys as happens in many MA's is not relevant for self
> > defence.
>
> sure it is-
> it's called 'training', as opposed to 'fighting'.
> The disconnect is that most people don't train but for a few hours, a couple
> of times a week- and that mitigated enough not to carry injuries to work
> with them.
There is a lot of stuff that can be trained at more then just point
sparring, or two step drill level without the risk of serious injuries.
If the occasional black eye or sore neck is too much for some then they
should imo find another hobby, or at least have enough sense to realise
that practicing without any form of hard contact will not help their
self defence skills.
Dimitri
theoriginaldimi
Rabid Weasel schreef:
For me, yes, it is enough. Heavy contact sparring will make sure that
techniques (and by consequence the curriculi of the arts) are kept up
to date. You do not do an armlock or a cross this way or that way
because some little old japanese or chinese or brazilian guy said that
was the correct way. You do it because you have realistic practice and
therefore know that this way works well/best, and especially that it
works for you.
A lot of martial arts are based on the teachings of one individual. But
it's not because sensei was a genetically gifted intividual that could
make a certain technique work that the same technique works for
everyone
Dimitri
theoriginaldimi
Rabid Weasel schreef:
This is more or less the definition I gave above. The traditional
aspect refers to the originin of the techniques, and on the way the
curriculum is or isn't kept up to date.
Tradition in TMA does not refer to the age of the art.
Dimitri
bluph...@hotmail.com
>
> This is more or less the definition I gave above. The traditional
> aspect refers to the originin of the techniques, and on the way the
> curriculum is or isn't kept up to date.
>
> Tradition in TMA does not refer to the age of the art.
>
> Dimitri
Still a wee fuzzy for me.. can someone give an example of a TMA,
please?
Dirk Gently
Anything from Asia, or with an Asian language name.
(telling it like it is)
Sutemi
Rabid Weasel wrote:
> Define: Traditional Martial Art
Any martial art wherein if you won a fight, competition, or sparring
match by using a technique that wasn't in the system, you would be
berated instead of congratulated. That's my definition in a nutshell.
theoriginaldimi
bluph...@hotmail.com schreef:
A lot of styles can potentially be TMA's. But I would say most forms of
JJJ, Aikido, Kung Fu.
Dimitri
Chas
> There is a lot of stuff that can be trained at more then just point
> sparring, or two step drill level without the risk of serious injuries.
Sure, and you may care to participate in them if your self-defense needs are
more immediate.
> If the occasional black eye or sore neck is too much for some then they
> should imo find another hobby, or at least have enough sense to realise
> that practicing without any form of hard contact will not help their
> self defence skills.
That's why I like the indonesian idea about separating the choreography from
the combative knowledge.
One can practice 'pentjak' without any reference to the self-defense skills
at all- the 'temple dancers' are like that.
There is a theory, and it's not all that unusual, that assiduous practice of
the choreography will allow for an intuitive deployment of the skill in
hazard. I have some small experience of that, but it's not what I would rely
on.
wwd
"Dirk Gently" <eh...@oprahwinfreyrules.com> wrote in message
news:e5pmaq$p4v$1...@nntp.aioe.org...
Like judo or muay thai for instance?
Dirk Gently
I take umbrage with your correction.
I challenge you to a post-off. Last person to post before 9:52am PST wins.
Shaun
Shuurai wrote:
> > --
> > Xavier Stephenson of the legendary Grand Malar Motel
> > Master of the Kata-Dante, Wielder of Dim Mak
> > 12th degree Black Belt, Open Hand Crushing Style
> > Professional Ballet Dancer, Benihana Chef
>
> I give you only 1 point for the troll itself, as it is tired and
> overused. However, you get +1 for mentioning ninjas, +.5 for "karate
> vs. nuclear weapons", and finally another +.5 for the creative sig.
Honestly, I would switch that to .5 for the ninja reference, and 1 for
the "karate vs. nuclear weapons." Either that, or one point each.
Because "karate vs. nuclear weapons" is some funny shit.
Chris H. Fleming
> On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 05:06:12 -0700, bluphysted wrote:
>
> >> I'll tell you why: TMAs are not created for sport competition. They are
> >> created to win real fights.
> >
> > Jiu-Jitsu is a TMA, is it not?
>
> Define: Traditional Martial Art
When a fight fan says TMA they usually do not mean it literally. Judo
has some tradition. MT has some tradition. ...
TMA usually means something like
(*) no sparring or point sparring
(*) wide legged stances and/or bad foot work
(*) hands not kept up where they should be to defend
(*) unrealistic parrying/blocking crap
(*) little to no ground work
(*) little to no sprawl
(*) colored belts awarded by subscription
(*) taught by a guru
(*) mystical bullshit
Offenders include many forms of Karate, TKD, Gung Fu, ...
A better word for TMA (pejorative) is McDojo
When a fighter pulls out a TMA stance in the ring, they get their ass
handed to them quickly.
Haystacks Calhoun
"Sutemi" <ericro...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:1149263553.6...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Best definition I've heard.
THE LEGENDARY GRAHAM
have you been turned down for it?
take it at face value its tv entertainment
real martial arts have their own place
--------------= Posted using GrabIt =----------------
------= Binary Usenet downloading made easy =---------
-= Get GrabIt for free from http://www.shemes.com/ =-
JTP
Agreed, these are traditions that have no MMA application.
> (*) wide legged stances and/or bad foot work
I disagree here. Bad footwork is, of course, bad. But there are a dozen
stances that can work. We've seen it before. Traditional wrestling, MT
boxing, crouch and stalk.
For an extreme example, look at Genki Sudo. He does the ROBOT in the
ring and still hands people their asses on a regular basis. He springs
off the cage or ropes. He turns his back to people. He also sports
traditional forms all the time, from old school boxing to kung fu to
spinning backfists from 'points' martial arts.
> (*) hands not kept up where they should be to defend
Sure, most of the time. There are reasons to goad your opponent into
striking, but for the most part, keeping those hands up is key. But
it's also taught in most TMA's. A lot of practitioners are either lazy
or think they're indestructable.
> (*) unrealistic parrying/blocking crap
This one depends. We don't see it a lot in the West, but Eastern MMA
sees a lot more blocking/trapping, certainly more of the Judo
parry/throwing than we generally see in the UFC. It can work, it just
needs to be timed correctly and executed well.
> (*) little to no ground work
> (*) little to no sprawl
These two go hand in hand. No ground defense is doom in MMA, of course.
> (*) colored belts awarded by subscription
A waste of cloth, yes.
> (*) taught by a guru
> (*) mystical bullshit
Now I totally disagree here. Some MMA fighters have at least one Guru
of some sort, and a lot of them subscribe to spiritual and mental
training that you might define as mystical bullshit. We just saw one of
them in the finals of last season's Ultimate Fighter. Luke Cummo went
through all of the ritual and mysticism, and he did fairly well for
himself. Quite a few Eastern fighters do as well.
The Gracies go on pilgrimage before a fight, to a secluded beach or
getaway. Royce puts a couple of tear drops on the mat before any fight.
Despite his recent loss, I would say he had a measure of success in the
ring.
Jeff Monson is a Philosophy major and Green activist. He IS a guru.
He's given talks that, in one sitting, range from how to do an anti-war
protest, to how to train for MMA, to philosophy and the meaning of
life.
Anything can work, if the right ideas and training are exposed to the
right people. Call it mystic, call it metaphysical, call it a state of
mind. But it's only mystical bullshit if it doesn't work for you. If it
does work for you, it becomes tradition.
Frank Benn
news:pan.2006.06.02.14.13.12.395888@NO7450SPAM+dayton.net...
>
Additionally though, the given definition of
> "Traditional Martial Arts" just didn't seem good to me.
>
> fan/player knows but can't really explain. Personally, I think that it's
> a misplaced term. I don't think the term "Traditional Martial Art" is
> accurate to describe the concept that they want to associate with it.
> Personally, I like the more descriptive terms of "Alive Resistance
> Training" and it's cousins.
>
A "traditional martial art" is any art based on an unchanging -- and by
decree, unchangeable -- model of fighting.
The problem MMA people have with traditional stylists is that they don't
allow for new findings -- something the likes of Karl Popper would say makes
for a weak theory, or a pseudo-science. If held to the rigor of
hypothetico-deductive reasoning, many "traditional martial arts" are
destined to be outmoded, deficient, and in some cases just plain wrong.
You can say what you want about "art", but on a level of function that's
just the way it goes.
The mistake of traditional martial arts is that they don't accept their
findings provisionally. The 'grandmaster' is considered all-knowing and
infallible. It goes like this. Some exceptional practitioner, teacher, or
visionary is exalted because he had something to offer that was original,
useful, or popular in his time. The art or method he leaves behind is then
crystallized and made immutable. No future practitioner can add to it,
change it, or question it -- even if through his own experience he finds
anomalies.
In a Kuhnian sense ("Structure of Scientific Revolutions"), anomalies that
continually come up can't be ignored, and should eventually cause a paradigm
shift. This actually did happen in the martial arts, in the early 1990s.
Empty-hand martial art underwent a revolution.
But the problem -- and this is the same problem Kuhn points out time and
again -- is that there are *social* factors which influence the process.
People feel tied to an idea, and some will defend it despite *any* amount of
contradicting evidence, or lack of confirming evidence. It's just how
people are. Conservatism has a certain inertia that's hard to break.
People are resistant to change, often because they "like" where they are
already. They don't want to change. Often they don't want to think.
"Like" is a dangerous word in martial art.
When Galileo saw that the moon's surface was pocked with craters, those that
opposed the idea and its implications -- mostly peripatetic philosophers --
simply refused to look through his telescope. Didn't matter what was true.
They didn't *want* to see.
Same with martial art.
Frank Benn
IFA Academy
Austin, Texas
Tim
news:T3Sgg.15479$0v4....@tornado.texas.rr.com:
Where, oh where, should I begin telling you about how jejune MMA is? How
about here: I'm sick of MMA fans sticking their proboscis into everyone
else's business. Let me start by stressing that I am not attempting to
suppress anyone's opinions, nor do I intend to demean MMA personally for
its beliefs or worldviews. But I myself do believe that I must speak up
and speak out against MMA.
I proudly adopt this stand. There's nothing controversial about that
view. It's a fact, pure and simple. It was a fact long before anyone
realized that MMA's "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude is
unconscionable, because it leaves no room for compromise. It is hard to
decide what is stronger in MMA: its incredible stupidity as far as any
real knowledge or ability is concerned, or the foolhardy insolence of its
behavior. I am aware that many people may object to the severity of my
language. But is there no cause for severity? Naturally, I insist that
there is, because for the nonce, MMA is content to create massive civil
unrest. But as soon as our backs are turned, it will instill a general
ennui. The facts as I see them simply do not support the false, but
widely accepted, notion that a plausible excuse is a satisfactory
substitute for performance. For many reasons, too many and too complex to
go into here at this time, I must say that MMA deeply believes that might
makes right. Meanwhile, back on Earth, the truth is very simple: The
central paradox of MMA's threats, the twist that makes MMA's prophecies
so irresistible to noisome ingrates, is that these people truly believe
that cynical stirrers are all inherently good, sensitive, creative, and
inoffensive.
Here are a few points to ponder:
1. I am not complaining about that.
2. Most of what MMA fans say is pure gibberish.
3. MMA is a prime example of the ignorance, naivete, and plain old
stupidity that it so adamantly criticizes.
Those points may at first seem unrelated, but when you connect the dots,
it becomes clear that if you think you can escape from MMA's impetuous,
misinformed warnings, then good-bye and good luck. To the rest of you I
suggest that it has been said that its self-declared suzerainty over
crafty bottom-feeders may enable it to stonewall on issues in which
taxpayers see a vital public interest. I, in turn, aver that if its plan
to foist the most poisonously false and destructive myths imaginable upon
us is to be discouraged then the wisest course of action is to prescribe
a course of action. Before we start down that road I ought to remind you
that if it makes fun of me or insults me, I hear it, and it hurts. But I
take solace in the fact that I am still able to build a sane and healthy
society free of its destructive influences.
Did MMA fans get dropped on their head when they were young, or take
massive doses of drugs to believe that it is a perpetual victim of
injustice? I'll tell you what I think the answer is. I can't prove it,
but if I'm correct, events soon will prove me right. I think that if it
truly wanted to be helpful, MMA wouldn't gain a respectable foothold for
its hypersensitive fairy tales. MMA's approach is generally to seize upon
an anecdote or a narrow and limited manifestation and/or purpose, and
then totally blow it out of proportion to justify its deranged biases.
But it goes further than that; it's irrelevant that my allegations are
100% true. MMA distrusts my information and arguments and will forever
maintain its current opinions. Look at it from my point of view: I cannot
compromise with MMA; it is without principles. I cannot reason with it;
it is without reason. But I can warn it, and with a warning it must
unmistakably take to heart: The justification MMA gave for seeking to
lure the quixotic into its band was one of the most testy justifications
I've ever heard. It was so testy, in fact, that I will not repeat it
here. Even without hearing the details you can still see my point quite
clearly: We are a nation of prostitutes. By this I mean that as long as
we are fat, warm, and dry we don't care what MMA does. It is precisely
that lack of caring that explains why MMA doesn't want us to deal with
the relevant facts. It would rather we settle for the meatless bone of
McCarthyism. I almost forgot: MMA's thesis is that it is a martyr for
freedom and a victim of metagrobolism. That's absolutely noxious, you
say? Good; that means you're finally catching on. The next step is to
observe that if this letter did nothing else but serve as a beacon of
truth, it would be worthy of reading by all right-thinking people.
However, this letter's role is much greater than just to lend support to
the thesis that it's not a question of if but only of when MMA will
impose a particular curriculum, vision of history, and method of pedagogy
on our school systems.
If I wanted to brainwash and manipulate a large segment of the
population, I would convince them that there is something intellectually
provocative in the tired rehashing of stupid stereotypes. In fact, that's
exactly what MMA does as part of its quest to use cheap, intemperate
propaganda to arouse the passions of crapulous backbiters. In my view, it
has long been obvious to attentive observers that my empirically
validated theory is that pride and solidarity prepare individuals to
become partners in an alliance against self-righteous, rebarbative
absolutism. But did you know that I leave open the question of the extent
to which this discussion could be applied to counter-productive
guttersnipes? It doesn't want you to know that because its sympathizers
believe that the health effects of secondhand smoke are negligible. It
should not be surprising that they believe this, however. As we all know,
minds that have been so maimed that they believe that MMA has the
linguistic prowess to produce a masterwork of meritorious literature can
believe anything, especially if it's false. We mustn't let MMA create a
refractory world of guilt and shame. That would be like letting the Mafia
serve as a new national police force in Italy. On rare occasions, in
order to preserve their liberties, sometimes people must unleash an
unparalleled wave of masochism. MMA does that even when its liberties
aren't being threatened.
By MMA's standards, if you have morals, believe that character counts,
and actually raise your own children -- let alone teach them to be
morally fit -- you're definitely a censorious champion of deceit, lies,
theft, plunder, and rapine. My standards -- and I suspect yours as well
-- are quite different from its. For instance, I maintain that I am
certain that if I asked the next person I meet if he would want MMA to
spawn delusions of misoneism's resplendence, he would say no. Yet we all
stand idly by while MMA claims that "the norm" shouldn't have to worry
about how the exceptions feel. I can no longer get very excited about any
revelation of MMA's hypocrisy or crookedness. It's what I've come to
expect by now. By the way, MMA thinks I'm trying to say that it can
change its muddleheaded ways. Wait! I just heard something. Oh, never
mind; it's just the sound of the point zooming way over MMA's head.
Perhaps MMA has never had to take a stand and fight for something as
critical as our right to expose some of its backwards deeds. But we must
understand that you have my word that those who sanctify its depravity do
us all a great injustice. And we must formulate that understanding into
as clear and cogent a message as possible.
MMA is frightened that we might unmask its true face and intentions in
regard to obscurantism. That's why it's trying so hard to prevent
whistleblowers from reporting that I'm willing to accept that a day of
reckoning is coming, and MMA will be called to account. I'm even willing
to accept that under the label of "satanic" are those who, like MMA, turn
the social order upside-down so that the dregs on the bottom become the
scum on the top. But those who believe that all major world powers are
controlled by a covert group of "insiders" are either naive or
deliberately misled. I'll say that again, because I want it to sink in:
What I call illiberal, obdurate pinheads speak in order to conceal -- or
at least to veil -- their thoughts. When was the last time you heard MMA
mention that many of us do not wish to live within its walls of escapism?
Probably never. That's why it seems to have recently added the word
"conventionalization" to its otherwise simplistic vocabulary. I suppose
MMA intends to use big words like that to obscure the fact that I didn't
want to talk about this. I really didn't. But its pushy attempt to
construct a creative response to my previous letter was absolutely
pitiful. Really, MMA, stringing together a bunch of solecistic insults
and seemingly random babble is hardly effective. It simply proves beyond
a shadow of a doubt that whenever it announces that the Earth is flat,
its habitués applaud on cue and the accolades are long and ostentatious.
What's funny is that they don't provide similar feedback whenever I tell
them that MMA says that you and I are morally inferior to naive polemics.
You know, it can lie as much as it wants but it can't change the facts.
If it could, it'd surely prevent anyone from hearing that I correctly
predicted that it would give voice, in a totally emotional and non-
rational way, to its deep-rooted love of emotionalism. Alas, I didn't
think it'd do that so effectively -- or so soon. But this is something to
be filed away for future letters. At present, I wish to focus on only one
thing: the fact that I enjoy the great diversity of humankind, in our
food, our dress, our music, our literature, and our forms of spiritual
expression. What I don't enjoy are MMA's covinous, inane codices which
spread apolaustic views.
It may not seem to be very important right now, but it's MMA's belief
that my letters demonstrate a desire to embark on wholesale torture and
slaughter of innocent civilians. I can't understand how anyone could go
from anything I ever wrote to such an incontinent idea. In fact, my
letters generally make the diametrically opposite claim, that MMA's jibes
are a mere cavil, a mere scarecrow, one of the last shifts of a desperate
and dying cause. Anti-democratic bozos can go right ahead and convict me
for saying that MMA's publications have nothing to do with freedom and
honor but everything to do with fetishism, but History, acting as the
goddess of a higher truth and a higher justice, will one day smilingly
tear up this verdict, acquitting me of all guilt and blame. Only the
impartial and unimpassioned mind will even consider that the time is
always right to do what is right. That's why we must call your attention
to the problem of primitive dipsomaniacs. The first step in that process
is to realize that my dream is for tired eyes to open and see clearly,
broken spirits to find new energy, and weary arms to find the strength to
step back and consider the problem of its editorials in the larger
picture of popular culture imagery. Trapped by the cognitive dissonance
engendered by hard evidence and common sense, MMA feels obligated to lay
waste to the environment in a condescending attempt to justify its
asseverations. MMA's lies come in many forms. Some of its lies are in the
form of anecdotes. Others are in the form of machinations. Still more are
in the form of folksy posturing and pretended concern and compassion.
Out of the vast number of devastating evils for which spleeny, besotted
dopeheads are directly or indirectly responsible, I shall pick out only a
single one which is most in keeping with the inner essence of MMA's
disingenuous rodomontades: pessimism. It's not necessarily the case that
MMA's lackeys are stampeding happily and mindlessly toward the precipice
of bloody-minded Fabianism. On the contrary, MMA lies routinely -- even
under oath. But what, you may ask, does any of that have to do with the
theme of this letter, viz., that it is battening on us? While I don't
know the answer to that particular question, I do know that it may be
reasonably cunning with words. However, it is utterly churlish with
everything else.
Despite the obvious fact that MMA should pay for its mistakes, MMA is an
opportunist. That is, it is an ideological chameleon, without any real
morality, without a soul. But I digress. Any rational argument must
acknowledge this. MMA's batty policies, naturally, do not. Forgive me for
boring you with all the gory details, but it seems clear that
presumptuous ideas are continually escaping the confines of MMA's
(obviously very weak) mind. But we ought to look at the matter in a
broader framework before we draw final conclusions on the subject: We see
that from secret-handshake societies meeting at "the usual place" to
back-door admissions committees, MMA's deputies have always found a way
to befuddle the public and make sin seem like merely a sophisticated
fashion. To be quite frank, if it weren't for crazy devotees of
conspiracy theories, MMA would have no friends. Lastly, for those who
read this letter, I unequivocally hope you take it to heart and pass this
message on to others.
Rabid Weasel
A fairly well thought out resposne.
JTP
Tim wrote:
> To be quite frank, if it weren't for crazy devotees of
> conspiracy theories, MMA would have no friends. Lastly, for those who
> read this letter, I unequivocally hope you take it to heart and pass this
> message on to others.
Allow me to be frank.
I'm a traditional martial artist. And your post bored me to tears. It
was filled with hyperbole, and a tedious faux-rage that accomplished
nothing.
Instead of pointing out specific issues that you had and providing real
world examples that would deliver a powerful message, you screwed
around with self righteous prose. Your post was nothing more than
venting, a sort of mental masterbation.
Next time, please take specific examples. Provide evidence. Set a
stage, say your piece, then get off the stage. Why? Because we don't
pass rants on to others. We pass real information on to others.
cate...@my-deja.com
Frank Benn wrote:
> A "traditional martial art" is any art based on an unchanging -- and by
> decree, unchangeable -- model of fighting.
Frank, surely there's room for hobby, for art, for spiritual pursuit in
this?
most (serious) practitioners of kenjutsu or similar will tell you
frankly they aren't studying a fighting art except as it applies to
their weapon; the same can be said for the blackpowder enthusiast,
although he probably doesn't strive for transcendant Zen awareness
during his workout:)
same for tiechee or whatever- loads of people out there will tell you
its a martial art they do for health- they don't seriously consider
themselves warriors.
also in many, if not most asian arts, the practice is as much about
cultural tradition as it is about fighting- that's explicit, like the
lion dances, not a hidden part of the system.
carl
> But the problem -- and this is the same problem Kuhn points out time and
> again -- is that there are *social* factors which influence the process.
> Same with martial art.
Sutemi
Tim wrote:
> Where, oh where, should I begin telling you about how jejune MMA is? How
> about here: I'm sick of MMA fans sticking their proboscis into everyone
> else's business. Let me start by stressing that I am not attempting to
> suppress anyone's opinions, nor do I intend to demean MMA personally for
> its beliefs or worldviews. But I myself do believe that I must speak up
> and speak out against MMA.
Remainder of boring, wordy post mercifully snipped.
You lost me at jejune.
Out, fag.
JTP
>
> Out, fag.
Hey now, plenty of MMA types like the mount from either top or bottom,
if you know what I mean! Ahem.
Rabid Weasel
> Instead of pointing out specific issues that you had and providing real
> world examples that would deliver a powerful message, you screwed
> around with self righteous prose. Your post was nothing more than
> venting, a sort of mental masterbation.
Well, this *IS* RMA. ;-)
Rabid Weasel
>
> Frank Benn wrote:
>
>> A "traditional martial art" is any art based on an unchanging -- and by
>> decree, unchangeable -- model of fighting.
>
>
> Frank, surely there's room for hobby, for art, for spiritual pursuit in
> this?
>
> most (serious) practitioners of kenjutsu or similar will tell you
> frankly they aren't studying a fighting art except as it applies to
> their weapon;
When the worlds Mana rises again and disables all forms of higher
technology and firearms my knowledge of Military Sabre, Cutlass, Spear and
the like, along with my ready supply of pre-technological weapons, will
lead me to an exalted position in the New World Order (such as Leader of
Pillaging Rabble or maybe even Petty Local Warlord!).
bluph...@hotmail.com
;)
jk.. thanks for the elaborate definition
Philippe
....
...At least until your Ipod runs out of power... then you're screwed...
P.
--
Unless otherwise indicated, anything I write is either garnered from
experience or pulled out of my ass, depending on situational needs..
Dougie
"Frank Benn" <spa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Dougie
www.fateh.ca
www.teamtompkins.com
--------------------
www.jacquie.ca
wwd
"Tim" <tim...@therambler.org> wrote in message
news:Xns97D9165B263BDbo...@81.174.50.80...
> "Frank Benn" <spa...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> Where, oh where, should I begin telling you about how jejune MMA is? How
> about here: I'm sick of MMA fans sticking their proboscis into everyone
> else's business. Let me start by stressing that I am not attempting to
> suppress anyone's opinions, nor do I intend to demean MMA personally for
> its beliefs or worldviews. But I myself do believe that I must speak up
> and speak out against MMA.
[much snippage]
You know, there are no details about MMA (or TMA for that
matter) in the whole thing. I'm thinking you found a rant against
some abstract political system (capitalism or communism etc)
and just did a search and replace to put in MMA. It certainly
would make more sense as a rant against some ideology ...
Chris H. Fleming
> > (*) no sparring or point sparring
>
> Agreed, these are traditions that have no MMA application.
>
> > (*) wide legged stances and/or bad foot work
>
> I disagree here. Bad footwork is, of course, bad. But there are a dozen
> stances that can work. We've seen it before. Traditional wrestling, MT
> boxing, crouch and stalk.
>
> For an extreme example, look at Genki Sudo. He does the ROBOT in the
> ring and still hands people their asses on a regular basis. He springs
> off the cage or ropes. He turns his back to people. He also sports
> traditional forms all the time, from old school boxing to kung fu to
> spinning backfists from 'points' martial arts.
There is a tremendous difference in what a person is able to do and
should do given different skill levels. For the beginner and the
intermediate level striker the Karate and Gung Fu stances are terrible.
> > (*) hands not kept up where they should be to defend
>
> Sure, most of the time. There are reasons to goad your opponent into
> striking, but for the most part, keeping those hands up is key. But
> it's also taught in most TMA's. A lot of practitioners are either lazy
> or think they're indestructable.
>
> > (*) unrealistic parrying/blocking crap
>
> This one depends. We don't see it a lot in the West, but Eastern MMA
> sees a lot more blocking/trapping, certainly more of the Judo
> parry/throwing than we generally see in the UFC. It can work, it just
> needs to be timed correctly and executed well.
It doesn't work versus traditional boxing. Two people can only do it
versus each other when they are both poor strikers. Look at Nick Diaz
versus Koji Oishi.
Gung Fu people tried to do this in the early days of MMA, it didn't
work then either. I've seen people try.
> > (*) little to no ground work
> > (*) little to no sprawl
>
> These two go hand in hand. No ground defense is doom in MMA, of course.
>
> > (*) colored belts awarded by subscription
>
> A waste of cloth, yes.
>
> > (*) taught by a guru
> > (*) mystical bullshit
>
> Now I totally disagree here. Some MMA fighters have at least one Guru
> of some sort, and a lot of them subscribe to spiritual and mental
> training that you might define as mystical bullshit. We just saw one of
> them in the finals of last season's Ultimate Fighter. Luke Cummo went
> through all of the ritual and mysticism, and he did fairly well for
> himself. Quite a few Eastern fighters do as well.
You lack a control group to make the claim that it helped.
But it doesn't matter because I was talking about turning invisible and
the touch of death.
I am talking about Gurus that have a cult of personality and the TMA
becomes like a religion. It's unhealthy.
JTP
> should do given different skill levels. For the beginner and the
> intermediate level striker the Karate and Gung Fu stances are terrible.
Well yes, but we're talking about paid, professional fighters here.
People who have business being in the ring.
> > This one depends. We don't see it a lot in the West, but Eastern MMA
> > sees a lot more blocking/trapping, certainly more of the Judo
> > parry/throwing than we generally see in the UFC. It can work, it just
> > needs to be timed correctly and executed well.
>
>
> It doesn't work versus traditional boxing. Two people can only do it
> versus each other when they are both poor strikers. Look at Nick Diaz
> versus Koji Oishi.
That's a MASSIVE over generalization. Do you watch PRIDE at all? You
think those guys are poor strikers? Do you think that the expert Judo
guys like Karo Parisyan are chumps when they catch trap and throw? I'm
sorry but 'doesn't work versus traditional boxing' is just bullshit.
If they're bad, then hell, it won't work against ANYTHING. But if
they're world class, it not only works, but I'm certain you've SEEN it
work. You just might not have known what to look for.
> You lack a control group to make the claim that it helped.
You lack a control group to claim it didn't, but then again who cares.
I'm a fighter not a scientist.
> But it doesn't matter because I was talking about turning invisible and
> the touch of death.
Oh. Well if you can do that shit you don't fight in MMA, you rob banks.
Duh!
Chris H. Fleming
> > There is a tremendous difference in what a person is able to do and
> > should do given different skill levels. For the beginner and the
> > intermediate level striker the Karate and Gung Fu stances are terrible.
>
> Well yes, but we're talking about paid, professional fighters here.
> People who have business being in the ring.
And most professional fighters don't use such stances.
> > > This one depends. We don't see it a lot in the West, but Eastern MMA
> > > sees a lot more blocking/trapping, certainly more of the Judo
> > > parry/throwing than we generally see in the UFC. It can work, it just
> > > needs to be timed correctly and executed well.
> >
> >
> > It doesn't work versus traditional boxing. Two people can only do it
> > versus each other when they are both poor strikers. Look at Nick Diaz
> > versus Koji Oishi.
>
> That's a MASSIVE over generalization. Do you watch PRIDE at all?
I own almost every Pride released on DVD. Cite a fight and I can
probably pull it out of my library and watch it later.
> You
> think those guys are poor strikers?
I don't recall any good striking fights were people did lame parrying
like I see in kiddie karate. Well except for that Kyukoshin fight, but
that wasn't MMA.
> Do you think that the expert Judo
> guys like Karo Parisyan are chumps when they catch trap and throw?
You're slowly changing the subject on me. The type of parrying in
Karate, TKD, and GungFu teach don't work very well at any skill level.
Specifically the slap a strike out of the way and counter strike crap.
> I'm
> sorry but 'doesn't work versus traditional boxing' is just bullshit.
>
> If they're bad, then hell, it won't work against ANYTHING. But if
> they're world class, it not only works, but I'm certain you've SEEN it
> work. You just might not have known what to look for.
Cite a fight please. I cited you a fight. I can cite another. I don't
want your opinions, I want to see some evidence.
> > You lack a control group to make the claim that it helped.
>
> You lack a control group to claim it didn't, but then again who cares.
> I'm a fighter not a scientist.
Good thing I made no such claim.
JTP
> > > > sees a lot more blocking/trapping, certainly more of the Judo
> > > > parry/throwing than we generally see in the UFC.
> > > It doesn't work versus traditional boxing. Two people can only do it
> > > versus each other when they are both poor strikers. Look at Nick Diaz
> > > versus Koji Oishi.
> > Do you think that the expert Judo
> > guys like Karo Parisyan are chumps when they catch trap and throw?
>
>
> You're slowly changing the subject on me.
Yea, I can see how talking about Judo parry/throwing, you saying it
doesn't work against traditional boxing, and then me citing Karo would
REALLY be changing the subject, and how it must have blindsided you.
I'm starting to smell troll, so I'm done here.
Chris H. Fleming
You seem to read alot into things that isn't there. And you are also
turning the discussion to get me into defending things I never
mentioned and that I don't necessarily care to.
If you are smelling a troll, it's your aroma.
David L. Burkhead
The classic Judo vs. Boxing remains Gene LeBell vs. Milo Savage, then a high
ranking Boxing middleweight.
Guess who won.
David L. Burkhead
theoriginaldimi
Chas schreef:
> "theoriginaldimi" <theorig...@gmail.com> wrote
> > There is a lot of stuff that can be trained at more then just point
> > sparring, or two step drill level without the risk of serious injuries.
>
> Sure, and you may care to participate in them if your self-defense needs are
> more immediate.
So you agree that for acute self-defense actual full speed/power
sparring is required (at least some of the time)?
> > If the occasional black eye or sore neck is too much for some then they
> > should imo find another hobby, or at least have enough sense to realise
> > that practicing without any form of hard contact will not help their
> > self defence skills.
>
> That's why I like the indonesian idea about separating the choreography from
> the combative knowledge.
> One can practice 'pentjak' without any reference to the self-defense skills
> at all- the 'temple dancers' are like that.
I like choreographed ma's, as long as they admit that they are not an
ma. I have however seen pentjak and capoeira advertised as good means
of self defence. They might have some value for self defence, but not
more then taebo. Any kind of phitness increasing sport will help your
SD skills a lot.
> There is a theory, and it's not all that unusual, that assiduous practice of
> the choreography will allow for an intuitive deployment of the skill in
> hazard. I have some small experience of that, but it's not what I would rely
> on.
This is why olympic swimmers train by laying on the ground and making
crawl-like motions :-)
Chas
> So you agree that for acute self-defense actual full speed/power
> sparring is required (at least some of the time)?
no.
You don't have to have a fat lip to be cute.
> I like choreographed ma's, as long as they admit that they are not an
> ma.
We don't give a fuck.
and can kick your ass-
lookin' good.
Chas
theoriginaldimi
Chas schreef:
> "theoriginaldimi" <theorig...@gmail.com> wrote
> > So you agree that for acute self-defense actual full speed/power
> > sparring is required (at least some of the time)?
>
> no.
> You don't have to have a fat lip to be cute.
So what is your interpretation of "Sure, and you may care to
participate in them if your self-defense needs are more immediate."
Sporting arts are better for immediate self defense (for them who are
able to do them)?
>
> > I like choreographed ma's, as long as they admit that they are not an
> > ma.
>
> We don't give a fuck.
> and can kick your ass-
> lookin' good.
Prove it. If your choreographies work in real life they will work in
local level MMA.
Dimitri
Chas
> So what is your interpretation of "Sure, and you may care to
> participate in them if your self-defense needs are more immediate."
It's an option-
but not the only option.
> Sporting arts are better for immediate self defense (for them who are
> able to do them)?
No, fighting arts-
of which sporting arts are a shadow.
>> We don't give a fuck.
>> and can kick your ass-
>> lookin' good.
> Prove it.
Stand up.
> If your choreographies work in real life they will work in
> local level MMA.
They already work in fighting.
And none of the mma-types has come bother me, so no need to do something
surprising to them.
--
Chas
It's Fighting, not Folkdancing!
http://www.jacksandsaps.com/
(blackjacks, saps, practice and conditioning tools)
theoriginaldimi
Chas schreef:
> "theoriginaldimi" <theorig...@hotmail.com> wrote
> > So what is your interpretation of "Sure, and you may care to
> > participate in them if your self-defense needs are more immediate."
>
> It's an option-
> but not the only option.
It is the most appropriate option if you are up to it.
> > Sporting arts are better for immediate self defense (for them who are
> > able to do them)?
>
> No, fighting arts-
> of which sporting arts are a shadow.
But a shadow with trained athletes who are better at actually fighting
then the "fighting arts" practitioners.
> >> We don't give a fuck.
> >> and can kick your ass-
> >> lookin' good.
> > Prove it.
>
> Stand up.
>
> > If your choreographies work in real life they will work in
> > local level MMA.
>
> They already work in fighting.
> And none of the mma-types has come bother me, so no need to do something
> surprising to them.
Silat depends more on surprising then on actually fighting. I see...
It's like the clown with the water spraying from his nice red flower.
Dressed up and surprising
Dimitri
theoriginaldimi
David L. Burkhead schreef:
Rickson won that one too. By armbar if I'm not mistaken
theoriginaldimi
Chas schreef:
> "theoriginaldimi" <theorig...@hotmail.com> wrote
> > Sure but a try for an impossible wrist-lock on a much stronger mugger
> > might lead to a more violent situation.
>
> oh what egregious horseshit.
> That's the first thing chicks say; ' oh he might get mad at me'- you know,
> in addition to the violent sexual assault that she's just about to endure.
> She's obviously out-gunned, against a stronger and more prepared assailant.
> About the only thing she's got going for her is surprise and technique-
> unless she doesn't.
> Preparation is better than not-preparation.
> Bad-preparation is better than no preparation at all.
>
> > Yes, because training is physical exercise which is almost always
> > healthy. But with regard to self defense aspect there either needs to
> > be a really good instructor that is honest about the limitations of the
> > techniques (depending on body strength) or the techniques should from
> > time to time be tested against a resisting opponent.
>
> Where are you going to find someone a hundred pounds heavier with a pistol
> and a hard-on that would rather fuck you than kick your ass, much less shoot
> you?
> Rearnakedchoke that motherfucker.
> or grease up.
> --
> Chas
> It's Fighting, not Folkdancing!
> http://www.jacksandsaps.com/
> (blackjacks, saps, practice and conditioning tools)
There must be some really strange cats running around in your
neightbourhood, and I'm sure you're not the least of them.
No argument will change the fact that silat will not help you to fight,
unless you are stronger/fitter then your attacker to begin with.
Dimitri
Rabid Weasel
>> The classic Judo vs. Boxing remains Gene LeBell vs. Milo Savage, then a high
>> ranking Boxing middleweight.
>>
>> Guess who won.
>>
>> David L. Burkhead
>
> Rickson won that one too. By armbar if I'm not mistaken
^^^^^^^
#######
Wow. He *is* good! ;-)
David L. Burkhead
--
David L. Burkhead "Dum Vivimus Vivamus"
mailto:dbur...@asmicro.com "While we live, let us live."
My webcomic Cold Servings
http://www.coldservings.com
Updates Wednesdays
"Rabid Weasel" <lawson@NO32472SPAM+dayton.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.06.06.14.34.26.945772@NO32472SPAM+dayton.net...
For those who might be confused by the above interchange, it was actually
LeBell by choke although he said after the fight that he had several
opportunities for armbar which he passed up because he didn't want to risk
screwing up Savage's career from potential injury. Note, that claim might
be simple bravado and, were Gene the one to have lost the match I would
assume it was. But Gene won, so there was no real need for that kind of
bravado.
David L. Burkhead
Chas
> It is the most appropriate option if you are up to it.
Nah-
look at the number of guys that have been injured and never been in a fight.
It's good clean fun, but actually kinda anti-productive for real fighting.
You fight like you train, and if you train to ignore the dozen most
effective techniques as if they didn't exist, you'll fight that way as well.
> But a shadow with trained athletes who are better at actually fighting
> then the "fighting arts" practitioners.
They wear armor, they have 'forbidden' techniques, they worry about weight
classes and referees, judges and time limits-
And the only way they care to fight is by their own rules, in their own
venue, under conditions they set.
Which isn't like 'fighting' at all.
> Silat depends more on surprising then on actually fighting. I see...
Oh yeah- no need for a bell to tell me when the fight started.
Chas
> There must be some really strange cats running around in your
> neightbourhood, and I'm sure you're not the least of them.
yer pernt?
> No argument will change the fact that silat will not help you to fight,
> unless you are stronger/fitter then your attacker to begin with.
Nope-
just smarter.
wwd
"Rabid Weasel" <lawson@NO32472SPAM+dayton.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.06.06.14.34.26.945772@NO32472SPAM+dayton.net...
Yup. He's also the real author of Shakespeare's works.
Rabid Weasel
I thought that was Chuck Norris? Give him a Tragedy. Man, can that guy
put the "Fun" back in "Funeral."
Badger North
wrote:
>>> Rickson won that one too. By armbar if I'm not mistaken
>>
>> Wow. He *is* good! ;-)
>
>Yup. He's also the real author of Shakespeare's works.
... in the original Klingon.
Badger Jones
www.youngforest.ca
"Every fighter's got a plan until they get hit in the mouth." - Mike Tyson
David L. Burkhead
news:b2cb829cp66nf1a7n...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 6 Jun 2006 10:24:40 -0600, "wwd" <w...@sometime.someplace.com>
> wrote:
>
> >>> Rickson won that one too. By armbar if I'm not mistaken
> >>
> >> Wow. He *is* good! ;-)
> >
> >Yup. He's also the real author of Shakespeare's works.
>
> ... in the original Klingon.
Well, of course. Why do you think they call it the _original_ Klingon.
James L. Hankins
"wwd" <w...@sometime.someplace.com> wrote in message
news:128bb2e...@corp.supernews.com...
Heh....this reminds me of the Chuck Norris jokes about all the power of
Chuck. Just insert Rickson.
monster
"Rabid Weasel" <lawson@NO32472SPAM+dayton.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.06.06.14.34.26.945772@NO32472SPAM+dayton.net...
He failed to win just one fight in his entire life - and that was the day he
was born. The doctor started it by slapping baby Rickson in a completely
unprovoked attack. Baby Rickson was forced to use the skills he had
invented and developed while he was still fetus Rickson in his mothers womb.
He immediately sunk in a fierce armbar. Unfortunately he broke the hold when
he was distracted by the first sight of his mommies teat. The fight was
officially ruled a draw, and Rickson was taught an important lesson about
eating properly prior to a fight - and not looking around for tits to stare
at during it ( something that Matt Hughes learned from his loss to Penn.).
.
Wayne Dobson
news:Xns97D9165B263BDbo...@81.174.50.80...
<Big Snip>
You want to write that over in English, mate.
--
Wayne
AKA "Dobbie the House Elf"
Rich
> A "traditional martial art" is any art based on an unchanging -- and by
> decree, unchangeable -- model of fighting.
I'm a little confused - does judo count as traditional or not? How long
is "tradition"?
> The problem MMA people have with traditional stylists is that they don't
> allow for new findings -- something the likes of Karl Popper would say makes
> for a weak theory, or a pseudo-science. If held to the rigor of
> hypothetico-deductive reasoning, many "traditional martial arts" are
> destined to be outmoded, deficient, and in some cases just plain wrong.
"Wrong" depends on the question you're asking. :) If what you want is
effectiveness in one-on-one unarmed fighting, then you'd have to agree.
But as others say, there is more to martial art than fighting. There's
more to dancing than attracting a mate. There's more to playing guitar
than how many notes you can play per minute.
> But the problem -- and this is the same problem Kuhn points out time and
> again -- is that there are *social* factors which influence the process.
> People feel tied to an idea, and some will defend it despite *any* amount of
> contradicting evidence, or lack of confirming evidence. It's just how
> people are. Conservatism has a certain inertia that's hard to break.
> People are resistant to change, often because they "like" where they are
> already. They don't want to change. Often they don't want to think.
> "Like" is a dangerous word in martial art.
I'd agree; I'd also put forward that this is not restricted to TMA.
There are a lot of MMAers who are quite happy to swallow what they're
told about TMA, for example, or who blindly accept that you have no
chance against a knife or against more than one opponent.Just as there
are people who insist on X-blocks and fantasise about spinkicking
fifteen people out cold, a la Enter the Dragon.
Cheers
Rich
theoriginaldimi
Rich schreef:
> Frank Benn schreef:
>
> > A "traditional martial art" is any art based on an unchanging -- and by
> > decree, unchangeable -- model of fighting.
>
> I'm a little confused - does judo count as traditional or not? How long
> is "tradition"?
i'd say no. If tomorrow a Judoka finds a new way of taking people down
within the limits of the rules then it will be used. However there are
a finite way of taking people down, so most likely all of them have
been used or put in judo books at one time or another.
> > The problem MMA people have with traditional stylists is that they don't
> > allow for new findings -- something the likes of Karl Popper would say makes
> > for a weak theory, or a pseudo-science. If held to the rigor of
> > hypothetico-deductive reasoning, many "traditional martial arts" are
> > destined to be outmoded, deficient, and in some cases just plain wrong.
>
> "Wrong" depends on the question you're asking. :) If what you want is
> effectiveness in one-on-one unarmed fighting, then you'd have to agree.
> But as others say, there is more to martial art than fighting. There's
> more to dancing than attracting a mate. There's more to playing guitar
> than how many notes you can play per minute.
Stop dissing Yngwie & Vai
> > But the problem -- and this is the same problem Kuhn points out time and
> > again -- is that there are *social* factors which influence the process.
> > People feel tied to an idea, and some will defend it despite *any* amount of
> > contradicting evidence, or lack of confirming evidence. It's just how
> > people are. Conservatism has a certain inertia that's hard to break.
> > People are resistant to change, often because they "like" where they are
> > already. They don't want to change. Often they don't want to think.
> > "Like" is a dangerous word in martial art.
>
> I'd agree; I'd also put forward that this is not restricted to TMA.
> There are a lot of MMAers who are quite happy to swallow what they're
> told about TMA, for example, or who blindly accept that you have no
> chance against a knife or against more than one opponent.Just as there
> are people who insist on X-blocks and fantasise about spinkicking
> fifteen people out cold, a la Enter the Dragon.
MMA'ers and all MA's that spar hard in general have a realistic idea
about their opponent as they spar with or compete against well-trained
opponents from time to time. TMA'ers usually seem to assume that the
mythical "street fighter" they are training for is an untrained retard.
Dimitri
theoriginaldimi
cate...@my-deja.com schreef:
> Frank Benn wrote:
>
> > A "traditional martial art" is any art based on an unchanging -- and by
> > decree, unchangeable -- model of fighting.
>
>
> Frank, surely there's room for hobby, for art, for spiritual pursuit in
> this?
>
> most (serious) practitioners of kenjutsu or similar will tell you
> frankly they aren't studying a fighting art except as it applies to
> their weapon; the same can be said for the blackpowder enthusiast,
> although he probably doesn't strive for transcendant Zen awareness
> during his workout:)
>
> same for tiechee or whatever- loads of people out there will tell you
> its a martial art they do for health- they don't seriously consider
> themselves warriors.
But many TMA's train using the same methods and the same respect for
tradition as kenjutsu but they in fact do claim to be fighting arts.
Dimitri
Rich
> Rich schreef:
> > Frank Benn schreef:
> > > A "traditional martial art" is any art based on an unchanging -- and by
> > > decree, unchangeable -- model of fighting.
> >
> > I'm a little confused - does judo count as traditional or not? How long
> > is "tradition"?
>
> i'd say no. If tomorrow a Judoka finds a new way of taking people down
> within the limits of the rules then it will be used. However there are
> a finite way of taking people down, so most likely all of them have
> been used or put in judo books at one time or another.
So I'd guess by that measure TKD isn't a traditional martial art
either? Or karate?
If you are defining things based on having a curriculum of techniques
that you are graded on, and yet are free to add to this with others
during formalised sparring, I see little difference between shotokan
and BJJ.
> > There are a lot of MMAers who are quite happy to swallow what they're
> > told about TMA, for example, or who blindly accept that you have no
> > chance against a knife or against more than one opponent.Just as there
> > are people who insist on X-blocks and fantasise about spinkicking
> > fifteen people out cold, a la Enter the Dragon.
>
> MMA'ers and all MA's that spar hard in general have a realistic idea
> about their opponent as they spar with or compete against well-trained
> opponents from time to time. TMA'ers usually seem to assume that the
> mythical "street fighter" they are training for is an untrained retard.
True, and I'm all in favour of that. But I do think that many sacrifice
some breadth of training for the considerable depth of training they
achieve. And while this is certainly necessary for the sporting aspect,
it's not the optimum for self-defence. Even if it is better than most
of the other self-defence options out there.
Cheers
Rich
theoriginaldimi
Rich schreef:
> theoriginaldimi schreef:
> > Rich schreef:
> > > Frank Benn schreef:
>
> > > > A "traditional martial art" is any art based on an unchanging -- and by
> > > > decree, unchangeable -- model of fighting.
> > >
> > > I'm a little confused - does judo count as traditional or not? How long
> > > is "tradition"?
> >
> > i'd say no. If tomorrow a Judoka finds a new way of taking people down
> > within the limits of the rules then it will be used. However there are
> > a finite way of taking people down, so most likely all of them have
> > been used or put in judo books at one time or another.
>
> So I'd guess by that measure TKD isn't a traditional martial art
> either? Or karate?
Not necessarily. Much of karate and TKD sparring and competition is
really touchy-touchy and is more related to athletics/gymnastics then
to actual fighting.
A good judo throw will take you our, but a point-sparring karate
kick...
> If you are defining things based on having a curriculum of techniques
> that you are graded on, and yet are free to add to this with others
> during formalised sparring, I see little difference between shotokan
> and BJJ.
It depends how close the sparring is to fighting. Shotokan sticks to
their curriculum even when they do more kickboxing oriented sparring.
At the club where I used to kickbox there was also a karate club (same
owner), they did actually spar in a kickboxing fashion. However when
there would be mixed training (kickboxers + karatekas) the best
karateka's would get their ass wooped by kickboxers with very little
training. Even with karatekas wearing these light gloves and the
kickboxers wearing 16 oz gloves.
> > > There are a lot of MMAers who are quite happy to swallow what they're
> > > told about TMA, for example, or who blindly accept that you have no
> > > chance against a knife or against more than one opponent.Just as there
> > > are people who insist on X-blocks and fantasise about spinkicking
> > > fifteen people out cold, a la Enter the Dragon.
> >
> > MMA'ers and all MA's that spar hard in general have a realistic idea
> > about their opponent as they spar with or compete against well-trained
> > opponents from time to time. TMA'ers usually seem to assume that the
> > mythical "street fighter" they are training for is an untrained retard.
>
> True, and I'm all in favour of that. But I do think that many sacrifice
> some breadth of training for the considerable depth of training they
> achieve. And while this is certainly necessary for the sporting aspect,
> it's not the optimum for self-defence. Even if it is better than most
> of the other self-defence options out there.
Lot's of good athletes get around with a few good techniques. You don't
have to be good at everything, just know one or to things that you have
trained in realistic conditions and that you can do with your eyes
closed.
Someone who does bjj for basic self defence doesn't need to know all
the tricks in the book. All he needs is how to take a guy down and how
to get in guard. he doesn't need omoplata or relogio chokes.
Dimitri
T.the.Ma...@gmail.com
theoriginaldimi wrote:
> Rich schreef:
>
> > Frank Benn schreef:
> >
> > > A "traditional martial art" is any art based on an unchanging -- and by
> > > decree, unchangeable -- model of fighting.
> >
> > I'm a little confused - does judo count as traditional or not? How long
> > is "tradition"?
>
> i'd say no. If tomorrow a Judoka finds a new way of taking people down
> within the limits of the rules then it will be used. However there are
> a finite way of taking people down, so most likely all of them have
> been used or put in judo books at one time or another.
The number of electrons in the universe is also finite; care to name
them?
JTP
> > within the limits of the rules then it will be used. However there are
> > a finite way of taking people down, so most likely all of them have
> > been used or put in judo books at one time or another.
>
> The number of electrons in the universe is also finite; care to name
> them?
Nail hit firmly on the head.
When people started to say 'oh THIS is what I mean, no now THIS is what
I mean' and 'this counts, but THAT doesn't count, why aren't you
reading my mind?'... that's when I gave up on the thread.
There are a hundred variations on what anyone could mean by TMA in the
scope of this conversation, and even after they 'nail it down' it
changes to suit as the argument morphs. So screw it, I'm letting other
people duke it out.
Frank Benn
news:1149514386.6...@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Frank, surely there's room for hobby, for art, for spiritual pursuit in
> this?
There is. But it gets kind of silly.
People become enamored with the exotic.
Somewhere in there they lose sight of the fact that martial art is supposed
to "do" something. It's suppose to have a functional purpose, beyond a
recreational one.
I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, anything that
gets people to kick and punch is a good thing. But then I see things like
this:
http://www.tmi-selfdefense.com/vids/set3/6.mov
. . . and I shake my head. This is the norm in traditional arts, not the
exception.
People get a false sense of what they can really do, or whether something
really works.
> most (serious) practitioners of kenjutsu or similar will tell you
> frankly they aren't studying a fighting art except as it applies to
> their weapon; the same can be said for the blackpowder enthusiast,
> although he probably doesn't strive for transcendant Zen awareness
> during his workout:)
>
> same for tiechee or whatever- loads of people out there will tell you
> its a martial art they do for health- they don't seriously consider
> themselves warriors.
>
> also in many, if not most asian arts, the practice is as much about
> cultural tradition as it is about fighting- that's explicit, like the
> lion dances, not a hidden part of the system.
On its face it may look harmless. Everybody needs a hobby.
But I get a lot of people who walk in off the street telling me they've got
6 months or two years of shotokan or tai chi, or tae kwon do, and so they've
"got their standup fighting covered." That's what they tell me. They come
in
saying -- I kid you not -- they've mastered their striking and standup
fighting, and they just need to learn a little grappling to be complete.
Point is, there is a massive amount of misinformation being propagated in
martial art. People teaching things that simply do not work. Like I said,
it just gets silly. People have a lot of nutty ideas in their heads about
martial arts.
It could be different if distinctions were made, broad ones, between living
bodies of knowledge, and dead ones.
But as it is, most people don't choose a martial art or school based
on function. They choose the school that's located on their way home from
work.
Frank Benn
IFA Academy
Austin, Texas
Shuurai
Shaun wrote:
> Shuurai wrote:
> > > --
> > > Xavier Stephenson of the legendary Grand Malar Motel
> > > Master of the Kata-Dante, Wielder of Dim Mak
> > > 12th degree Black Belt, Open Hand Crushing Style
> > > Professional Ballet Dancer, Benihana Chef
> >
> > I give you only 1 point for the troll itself, as it is tired and
> > overused. However, you get +1 for mentioning ninjas, +.5 for "karate
> > vs. nuclear weapons", and finally another +.5 for the creative sig.
>
> Honestly, I would switch that to .5 for the ninja reference, and 1 for
> the "karate vs. nuclear weapons." Either that, or one point each.
> Because "karate vs. nuclear weapons" is some funny shit.
And that is why I am Judge and you are... um... not Judge.
The "karate vs. nuclear weapons" thing has been done many times before.
We have to encourage originality. Ninja, on the other hand, always
get points no matter what.