Fine Femms and Gems (spoilers)
Nuncio
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Whoah!
What happened here?
It looks like it might have been intended as a S3
version of ADITL but if so it missed the mark by a mile.
Dear me; this one was embarrassing to watch. Even Lucy
seemed to be struggling a bit.
Nunc
Michael Quick
Hugely funny (imo). Joxer part slightly embarrassing, but the rest of the
ep superb.
Mike
Nuncio <metric...@tesco.net> wrote in message
news:38c1a191....@news.tesco.net...
Cleanthes
>FFG spoilers
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>Whoah!
>What happened here?
>
>It looks like it might have been intended as a S3
>version of ADITL but if so it missed the mark by a mile.
>
>Dear me; this one was embarrassing to watch. Even Lucy
>seemed to be struggling a bit.
>
>Nunc
>
>
>
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>
Whoa! My favorite episode of all time (seriously) and you didn't like it?
Well, heck, here's an old post of mine on this episode:
The rich are comrades to the poor,
Out fishin';
All brothers of a common lure
Out fishin'.
The urchin with a pin an' string
Can chum with millionare and king;
Vain pride is a forgotten thing,
Out fishin'
/
/
/ SPOILS Fins, Femmes & Gems
/
/
/
/
/
/
/Armus & Fostor wrote:
/ Chariots of War, Death in Chains, Beware Greeks,
/ Ties That Bind, Girls Just Wanna Have Fun, Xena Scrolls, For Him
/ Bell Tolls, Blind Faith, King of Assassins, W...Priestess...T, and
/ FF&G
/
/
FFG does have a LOT of Gabrielle. ROC plays three characters. (Normal
Gabrielle, Obsessed Gabrielle & Apewoman Gaea) This episode has a preliminary
timing of 23:34, which makes it the third ROCrichest episode so far on the
series, narrowly edging out ADITL and behind only Forget Me Not & The Prodigal.
This is just once through with the stopwatch, but during next five or five
hundred viewings in the next week (heck, I still can't stay in the sofa while
watching), I'll get a chance to time it again.
The blythe skylark has me today, so, if you want to join these musings
you'll have to be willing to tiptoe through tulips in matters of whimsy.
Let's see: what if we imagined obsessing on the lovely, well-formed,
resplendent Gabrielle. What if we highlighted her charms to the greatest
possible degree? We could spend time writing posts to a Gabrielle-obsessed
internet list. We could collect every item we could with ROC or Gabrielle's
face. The worst of us might consider stopwatch timing every episode. You know
about that, so it goes. In Fins, Femmes & Gems, we have an episode where the
wittiest character in fiction finally recognizes the charm of Gabrielle.
That's right, Gabrielle obsesses about GABRIELLE. Such delight! Alas, I
cannot write poetry, but I'll wait expectantly for those who can to capture the
playful essence of the enchanted Gabrielle.
In the beginning, we see the *normal* Gabrielle, focused on the mission and
in full bard mode, yet still able to examine all of the wonders of the rather
more complete temple of Aphrodite than she last visited in FHTBT. She
practices a wry tease of credulous Joxer, calling the story of Attis a great
love story. Attis, in myth, castrates himself for love of Cybele and is reborn
as a woman.
Gabrielle wanders over to the chichi-chi (XXX) section of Aphrodite's temple
and says "That's not humanly possible" [evidently she doesn't read fanfic :-}]
Xena says confidently, "Sure it it." [evidently she would write fanfic, had
she the time :-}]
Well, enough of *normal* Gabrielle, bring on the fun look at obsession! Let
Xena have smelly fish and Joxer his Rousseau delusion, Gabrielle finally PUTS
ON THE GABRIELLE IS ALWAYS RIGHT GLASSES! (metaphorically speaking within the
camp) With Attis/Joxer in the background reminding us of the extensiveness of
farce, we can enjoy this new character, *obsessed* Gabrielle as the figurative
impersonation without forgetting the farce.
To demonstrate Gabrielle's obsession, she displays her perfection. Normally,
her probity and wisdom would shrug off her mere corporeal charms, but the
enchantment allows her to focus her attention on herself for a change. She's
shown as needing to do this for her own psychological health, and I think this
matches modern theory on the subject.
As a viewer, every second of *watching* counts. Renee's form has never
looked finer and the script naturally called for her to look her best. She
stretches; she climbs trees; she admires her many attributes; she acts as an
apewoman (proving that Renee has the most talent in physical comedy of any
actor, ever). We even find out some new information about the BGSB! (there are
*layers and layers* of meaning there...)
Josh Becker, the director, likes to include Gabrielle onscreen, as I've
mentioned before about his earlier episode Fistful of Dinars which managed to
be ROCrich even though she doesn't have that many lines. In this episode, he
played up facial expressions. Xena and Joxer get some good ones in, but
Gabrielle displays more different facial expressions than any other three
episodes (and ROC really has a tremendous repertoire of facial expressions).
Each one merits a closeup and Becker obliges. I haven't counted close-ups
(though that sounds like a worthwhile project <g>), but this episode must rank
highest.
Though not a comedy of verbal jokes, there's still one good quote line after
another. LL says in the Official Guide that Becker encourages ad libbing. I'd
like to know whether any of these lines are ad libs:
"I am the ultimate fantasy."
"Gabrielle the Great!" "Gabrielle of Troy"
"Our Lady Gabrielle!" "Gabrielle of the Nile"
"Gabrielle of Olympia" "Gabrielle and the Four Seasons"
"My little golden fleece? You cut my hair to put a wig on a bent nail?"
She's not blonde, she's not a red head, she's gold. In many ways.
"No, I'm sorry Joxer, if I take off my clothes I could kill you. Beauty can
do that." {coulda used some CPR myself, actually}
When that terrific Mauri actor, Lawrence Makoare, playing Aphrodite's
'enforcer' (now for the second time, I hope they make this role permanent for
him) threatens to kill Gabrielle, she says:
"This body? Are you insane? Have you no understanding of absolute
inviolate comeliness?"
This scene worked so perfectly to demonstrate Gabrielle's character *within*
the obsession. She had already defeated these guys, but she only fights for a
reason, and she has none now that she possesses the diamond. Detractors charge
this episodes writers, Armus and Foster, with making Gabrielle too effective in
fights - citing Beware Greeks and For Him The Bell Tolls and with making her
too ineffective - citing Blind Faith and King of Assassins. Here they hit the
mark - she won when it counted and she fled when she had no reason to fight.
She gave as her reason for not fighting the second time that she didn't want
to break a nail! She complained about callouses and chafing at other points in
the episode. How better to point out her true character than to have her
obsessed-self exhibit these false colorings?
As normal, Xena makes the plans but Gabrielle remains better focused on the
mission. She reminds Xena of the diamond frequently.
Xena never contemplates whether she herself might be obsessed. Gabrielle
does consider this. And, she doesn't err when she says,
"What's not to like?"
Most GABsessed fans would hear this not as farce but as a fundamental truth of
nature:
Well, listen to my story about Gabrielle
Cute little gal who's looking really swell
Perfect hair, such a lovely lass
Nice round breasts and firm young ...
In ROC's earlier work, 'Rockford Files, A Blessing in Disguise', this word
is used, but not on Xena. Hmm, probably a decrease in licentiousness in the
past few years... (thanks to JEB for pointing this out to me)
Obsessed Gabrielle compares herself to Adonis and Aphrodite. (she assesses
this comparison correctly, if you ask me) She acts out some of the Narcissus
myth and leaves me envying water. She accepts stewardship of the poor
misguided Attis/Joxer, accepting thereby the role of Magna Mater - heck even
when she returns to normal she reminds Xena of their obligation.
Truly, the North Star DOES no more than symbolize her radiance. "The moon
rains out her beams, and heaven is overflowed."
Cleanthes (GGGHD)
"It would not be better if things happened to people just as they wish."
Heraclitus, fragments 106, 52
Katilist
> Whoa! My favorite episode of all time (seriously) and you didn't like it?
I know, I know... It is many people's favorite XWP comedy, and definitely one
of mine. I didn't see Lucy struggling at all - she looked like she was having
a blast!
Nice post, btw, I must have missed it at the time.
WolfKat ^..^ >^^<
Gabrielle, the love that we have - it's stronger than heaven and hell. It
transcends good and evil. It's an end in itself!
- Xena, "Fallen Angel"
Paul Hilling
>FFG spoilers
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>Whoah! What happened here?
A great episode. If you ignore almost all the Attis parts <g>
>It looks like it might have been intended as a S3 version of ADITL but if
>so it missed the mark by a mile.
It wasn't that far out, I quite enjoyed it in places.
>Dear me; this one was embarrassing to watch. Even Lucy seemed to be
>struggling a bit.
I thought she was having a blast... And as for Reneé... <bg>
--
Paul Hilling
New to ATX? Read the FAQ @ http://www.bigfoot.com/~p.hilling/atx-faq.htm
[Paul's Gabby Grotto http://www.bigfoot.com/~p.hilling/xena.htm]
No computer components were harmed during the creation of this e-mail,
however several billion electrons were abused to ensure its safe delivery.
Paul Hilling
[I didn't want to but I had to snip]
Oh gods, that was lovely. I totally agree with everything you said. That
*IS* a keeper... <bg>
Oh and if you want to know about the ad-libs, Josh has a website.
www.beckerfilms.com where you can ask him.
Mark A
>
> Dear me; this one was embarrassing to watch. Even Lucy
> seemed to be struggling a bit.
Tell me you're kidding, right... you are kidding, aren't you?
Regards
Mark
(Frankly astonished!)
Cleanthes
>>Nuncio <metric...@tesco.net> wrote...
>
>>FFG spoilers
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>>Whoah! What happened here?
>
>A great episode. If you ignore almost all the Attis parts <g>
>
Paul, I'm curious -- there are several castration suggestions in FFG.
Attis, as I mentione, in myth, castrates himself and is reborn female. Would
you like Joxer better if he did that?
[I dunno if Ted is enough of a method actor to actually undergo the surgery?
<just kidding>]
Would you suggest castration via pine-tree, as Attis attempts?
I personally liked the pink nightie much better than Joxer's regular outfit!
>>It looks like it might have been intended as a S3 version of ADITL but if
>>so it missed the mark by a mile.
>
>It wasn't that far out, I quite enjoyed it in places.
I think it was the S3 version of the Armus and Foster "direct quote of
ancient myth episode". The S2 episode then, was `Girls Just Wanna Have Fun`
and the season 1 version was `Beware Greeks Bearing Gifts`.
Season 4 did not have such an episode, although `If The Shoe Fits` comes
closest -- "direct quote of ancient fairy tale", I guess.
Only one Armus & Foster script in season 5. (Lyre, Lyre) I haven't
identified the mythical features of that one, if any. The guy who used to do
that on another mailing list has left Xena fandom. :-(
>>Dear me; this one was embarrassing to watch. Even Lucy seemed to be
>>struggling a bit.
Really? I didn't argue with this the first time, but Lucy had so many
scenes with Renee and they all went so well. Especially when she drags her
from the water, and again when obsessed Gabrielle gives her jealousy speech.
>
>I thought she was having a blast... And as for Reneé... <bg>
>
>--
>Paul Hilling
Marcus Seeck
wrote:
>>;
>>;
>>Whoah!
>>What happened here?
>>
>>Dear me; this one was embarrassing to watch. Even Lucy
>>seemed to be struggling a bit.
>>
>>Nunc
>>
>
>
> Whoa! My favorite episode of all time (seriously) and you didn't like it?
>
>Well, heck, here's an old post of mine on this episode:
>
[snip]
::sniff::
while I wipe away the tears from my eyes, let me thank you, for
reposting this, Cleanthes. This was a truly beautiful post and
expresses exactly my feelings about FF&G. :-)
Marcus.
Property of SherrieB
Member: FOBT, GGGHD, PIST
--
People don't live on planets. It may be the place where their
body eats its tea, but people _live_ in worlds of their own
which orbit very handily around the center of their heads.
Terry Pratchett, "The Last Continent"
Nuncio
>Paul Hilling writes:
>>>Nuncio <metric...@tesco.net> wrote...
>>
>>>FFG spoilers
>>>;
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>>>;
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[snip]
> I think it was the S3 version of the Armus and Foster "direct quote of
>ancient myth episode". The S2 episode then, was `Girls Just Wanna Have Fun`
>and the season 1 version was `Beware Greeks Bearing Gifts`.
I am never sure when Cleanthes is pulling a lower limb...
A 'direct quote of an ancient myth'?
>>>Dear me; this one was embarrassing to watch. Even Lucy seemed to be
>>>struggling a bit.
>
> Really? I didn't argue with this the first time, but Lucy had so many
>scenes with Renee and they all went so well. Especially when she drags her
>from the water, and again when obsessed Gabrielle gives her jealousy speech.
>
It seemed to me that she was mugging as the obsessed Xena.
I thought she was hunting for facial expressions - any kind of facial
expression - which might work.
Mind you, this could be me. It was a performance redolent of "The Furies"
and I found *that* Xena a bit off-target too.
Nunc
Nuncio
>Nuncio wrote:
>>
>> Dear me; this one was embarrassing to watch. Even Lucy
>> seemed to be struggling a bit.
>
>Tell me you're kidding, right... you are kidding, aren't you?
>
>Regards
>
>Mark
>(Frankly astonished!)
No. I did cringe.
But since everyone else seems to have had a ball I'll have to
rewatch as much as I can take (<g>) to check.
Nunc
Nuncio
>>
>>FFG spoilers
>>;
>>;
>>;
>>;
>>;
>>;
>>;
>>;
>>;
>>;
>>;
>>;
>>Whoah!
>>What happened here?
>>
>>It looks like it might have been intended as a S3
>>version of ADITL but if so it missed the mark by a mile.
>>
>>Dear me; this one was embarrassing to watch. Even Lucy
>>seemed to be struggling a bit.
>>
>>Nunc
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> Whoa! My favorite episode of all time (seriously) and you didn't like it?
>
>
>
>Well, heck, here's an old post of mine on this episode:
>
>
>The rich are comrades to the poor,
> Out fishin';
>All brothers of a common lure
> Out fishin'.
>The urchin with a pin an' string
>Can chum with millionare and king;
>Vain pride is a forgotten thing,
> Out fishin'
>/
>/
>/ SPOILS Fins, Femmes & Gems
>/
>/
I was going to correct my awful piece of typing in
the header -- but hey; it's so funny I'll let it stand.
OK - I get the message. There's a lot of Gabrielle and she is
giving her devoted fans what they want......
> In the beginning, we see the *normal* Gabrielle, focused on the mission and
>in full bard mode, yet still able to examine all of the wonders of the rather
>more complete temple of Aphrodite than she last visited in FHTBT. She
>practices a wry tease of credulous Joxer, calling the story of Attis a great
>love story. Attis, in myth, castrates himself for love of Cybele and is reborn
>as a woman.
This was a joke inserted specially for Cleanthes I think.
> Gabrielle wanders over to the chichi-chi (XXX) section of Aphrodite's temple
>and says "That's not humanly possible" [evidently she doesn't read fanfic :-}]
> Xena says confidently, "Sure it it." [evidently she would write fanfic, had
>she the time :-}]
This joke was inserted for everyone else! ;-)
> Well, enough of *normal* Gabrielle, bring on the fun look at obsession! Let
>Xena have smelly fish and Joxer his Rousseau delusion, Gabrielle finally PUTS
>ON THE GABRIELLE IS ALWAYS RIGHT GLASSES! (metaphorically speaking within the
>camp) With Attis/Joxer in the background reminding us of the extensiveness of
>farce, we can enjoy this new character, *obsessed* Gabrielle as the figurative
>impersonation without forgetting the farce.
>
> To demonstrate Gabrielle's obsession, she displays her perfection. Normally,
>her probity and wisdom would shrug off her mere corporeal charms, but the
>enchantment allows her to focus her attention on herself for a change. She's
>shown as needing to do this for her own psychological health, and I think this
>matches modern theory on the subject.
>
> As a viewer, every second of *watching* counts. Renee's form has never
>looked finer and the script naturally called for her to look her best. She
>stretches; she climbs trees; she admires her many attributes; she acts as an
>apewoman (proving that Renee has the most talent in physical comedy of any
>actor, ever). We even find out some new information about the BGSB! (there are
>*layers and layers* of meaning there...)
That was amusing I admit. I nearly though the BGSB was coming off... twice...
but, no, what a tease; it is a seducer's nightmare that garment!!
>Josh Becker, the director, likes to include Gabrielle onscreen, as I've
>mentioned before about his earlier episode Fistful of Dinars which managed to
>be ROCrich even though she doesn't have that many lines. In this episode, he
>played up facial expressions. Xena and Joxer get some good ones in, but
>Gabrielle displays more different facial expressions than any other three
>episodes (and ROC really has a tremendous repertoire of facial expressions).
>Each one merits a closeup and Becker obliges. I haven't counted close-ups
>(though that sounds like a worthwhile project <g>), but this episode must rank
>highest.
>
> Though not a comedy of verbal jokes, there's still one good quote line after
>another. LL says in the Official Guide that Becker encourages ad libbing. I'd
>like to know whether any of these lines are ad libs:
>
> "I am the ultimate fantasy."
>
> "Gabrielle the Great!" "Gabrielle of Troy"
>"Our Lady Gabrielle!" "Gabrielle of the Nile"
> "Gabrielle of Olympia" "Gabrielle and the Four Seasons"
>
> "My little golden fleece? You cut my hair to put a wig on a bent nail?"
>
>She's not blonde, she's not a red head, she's gold. In many ways.
>
> "No, I'm sorry Joxer, if I take off my clothes I could kill you. Beauty can
>do that." {coulda used some CPR myself, actually}
To be honest, none of these sound like ad-libs to me.
They sound like fairly directly written witticisms.
>When that terrific Mauri actor, Lawrence Makoare, playing Aphrodite's
>'enforcer' (now for the second time, I hope they make this role permanent for
>him) threatens to kill Gabrielle, she says:
>
> "This body? Are you insane? Have you no understanding of absolute
>inviolate comeliness?"
>
> This scene worked so perfectly to demonstrate Gabrielle's character *within*
>the obsession. She had already defeated these guys, but she only fights for a
>reason, and she has none now that she possesses the diamond. Detractors charge
>this episodes writers, Armus and Foster, with making Gabrielle too effective in
>fights - citing Beware Greeks and For Him The Bell Tolls and with making her
>too ineffective - citing Blind Faith and King of Assassins. Here they hit the
>mark - she won when it counted and she fled when she had no reason to fight.
>
> She gave as her reason for not fighting the second time that she didn't want
>to break a nail! She complained about callouses and chafing at other points in
>the episode. How better to point out her true character than to have her
>obsessed-self exhibit these false colorings?
>
> As normal, Xena makes the plans but Gabrielle remains better focused on the
>mission. She reminds Xena of the diamond frequently.
What? What? Did we see the same ep?
> Xena never contemplates whether she herself might be obsessed. Gabrielle
>does consider this. And, she doesn't err when she says,
>
>"What's not to like?"
>
>Most GABsessed fans would hear this not as farce but as a fundamental truth of
>nature:
>
>Well, listen to my story about Gabrielle
>Cute little gal who's looking really swell
>Perfect hair, such a lovely lass
>Nice round breasts and firm young ...
>
> In ROC's earlier work, 'Rockford Files, A Blessing in Disguise', this word
>is used, but not on Xena. Hmm, probably a decrease in licentiousness in the
>past few years... (thanks to JEB for pointing this out to me)
... And it is funnier if the last word is omitted.
(first law of comedy: make sure it is funny)
>
> Obsessed Gabrielle compares herself to Adonis and Aphrodite. (she assesses
>this comparison correctly, if you ask me) She acts out some of the Narcissus
>myth and leaves me envying water. She accepts stewardship of the poor
>misguided Attis/Joxer, accepting thereby the role of Magna Mater - heck even
>when she returns to normal she reminds Xena of their obligation.
Did you notice that in the scene after Gab is fished out, during the intercuts
from her POV to Xena's POV, Gab's degree of hair dampness is different.
I don't usually notice continuity things like this, but I did spot this one.
> Truly, the North Star DOES no more than symbolize her radiance. "The moon
>rains out her beams, and heaven is overflowed."
>
"I got it bad, and that aint good" (Duke Ellington)
Nunc
Paul Hilling
>>Paul Hilling writes:
>>FFG spoilers
>>;
>>;
>>;
>>;
>>;
>>;
>>;
>>;
>>;
>>;
>>;
>>;
>>;
>>;
>>;
>>;
>>;
>>>Whoah! What happened here?
>>A great episode. If you ignore almost all the Attis parts <g>
>Paul, I'm curious -- there are several castration suggestions in FFG.
>Attis, as I mentione, in myth, castrates himself and is reborn female.
>Would you like Joxer better if he did that?
What I personally would have preferred would have been no joxer at all, but
I can see how he's really there to highlight that it is a comedy. It was
just to my mind, he could very easily written out with only very minor
changes. I just loved the way Lucy and Renee bounce off each other
throughout this episode... It reminded me a lot of OAAA... This one had a
very similar X/G actually talking to each other style that I loved in OAAA.
>[I dunno if Ted is enough of a method actor to actually undergo the
>surgery? <just kidding>]
>Would you suggest castration via pine-tree, as Attis attempts?
Not really. Removal from the episode yes, but that's taking it to far I
think.
>I personally liked the pink nightie much better than Joxer's regular
>outfit!
Argh the horror of whiteness... Doesn't he do any sunbathing or something?
>>>It looks like it might have been intended as a S3 version of ADITL but
>>>if so it missed the mark by a mile.
>>It wasn't that far out, I quite enjoyed it in places.
>I think it was the S3 version of the Armus and Foster "direct quote of
>ancient myth episode". The S2 episode then, was `Girls Just Wanna Have
>Fun and the season 1 version was `Beware Greeks Bearing Gifts`.
With so many sexual inuendo's what's not to like? "She wants me to fist a
fish? I can hardly say it let alone do it", or "Lets get wet" or "I'm
Coming Gabrielle!" <g>
>Only one Armus & Foster script in season 5. (Lyre, Lyre) I haven't
>identified the mythical features of that one, if any. The guy who used to
>do that on another mailing list has left Xena fandom. :-(
If your're referring to Xorys, he's still around on a mailing list I'm on.
If your're not, forget I said this <bg>
>>>Dear me; this one was embarrassing to watch. Even Lucy seemed to be
>>>struggling a bit.
>Really? I didn't argue with this the first time, but Lucy had so many
>scenes with Renee and they all went so well.
I loved them, they are what made this episode for me... and I enjoyed seeing
them weave magic betwixt them.
>Especially when she drags her from the water, and again when obsessed
>Gabrielle gives her jealousy speech.
Next time say "You!!" <bg>
Cleanthes
>>Paul Hilling writes:
>>>>Nuncio <metric...@tesco.net> wrote...
>>>
>>>>FFG spoilers
>>>>;
>>>>;
>>>>;
>>>>;
>>>>;
>>>>;
>>>>;
>>>>;
>>>>;
>>>>;
>>>>;
>>>>;
>>>>;
>>>>;
>>>>;
>>>>;
>>>>;
>>>
>[snip]
>>ancient myth episode". The S2 episode then, was `Girls Just Wanna Have Fun`
>>and the season 1 version was `Beware Greeks Bearing Gifts`.
>
I believe the concept of irony makes this impossible for anyone with regard
to anything anytime. Nonetheless, sometimes I'm more artless than other times,
although I never know myself how far I've gone. ;-)
>A 'direct quote of an ancient myth'?
By this I meant that they pulled up a myth and followed directly, although
not *strictly*, something found there. The story of Deiphobus's love for Helen
is from somewhere ... darn, my wife wants to use the computer, but I'm
thinking the Aeneid.
In Girls Just Wanna Have Fun, the story of headless Orpheus from Aeschylus
was used. The Bachae tore his head off, it floated down the river and ended up
in Lesbos [gasp!] in myth. Well, actually, Xena and Gabrielle (with help from
Joxer), intercepted it! Joxer's speech to Orpheus about playing the lyre is an
almost word-for-word quote of Phaedrus's thoughts on lyre playing in Plato's
Symposium.
So with Fins, Femmes and Gems. It followed the story of Attis and
Gaia/Cybele/Earth Mother *fairly* closely -- making allowance for camp, farce
and modern prudishness. In the most extreme version of the story, Attis
castrates himself for love of his mother, Cybele. After bleeding to death at
the base of the pine tree (the one Joxer/Attis hits in George of the Jungle
fashion), he's reborn female. So, incest, self-castration, transgendering,
lesbianism --- all the elements that make for good family viewing!
>>>>Dear me; this one was embarrassing to watch. Even Lucy seemed to be
>>>>struggling a bit.
>>
>> Really? I didn't argue with this the first time, but Lucy had so many
>>scenes with Renee and they all went so well. Especially when she drags her
>>from the water, and again when obsessed Gabrielle gives her jealousy speech.
>>
>
>It seemed to me that she was mugging as the obsessed Xena.
>
>I thought she was hunting for facial expressions - any kind of facial
>expression - which might work.
>
Others mentioned that she seemed a bit like Meg. I agree with that, as far
as it goes.
Of course, if Meg is a look-alike to Xena, it stands to reason that Xena
would be a look-alike to Meg.
"Mugging" is often used in criticisms of Lawless' acting, especially of her
Meg. (well, actually, I'm just assuming "Meg" is played by Lawless -- I don't
actually have anything from the credits to support this! <g>) I'm not a
good judge of acting ability, although I would be willing to put ROC's acting
ability ahead of Lawless, if forced to choose.
I guess, for me, "mugging" is an acceptable way to show obsession -- Tony
Blair mugs for the camera a lot, don't you think? <g>
>Mind you, this could be me. It was a performance redolent of "The Furies"
>and I found *that* Xena a bit off-target too.
Okay, I can see this --- Xena without her full personality was what Lawless
was going for in that episode, too.
>Nunc
Xenus
>
> FFG spoilers
> ;
> ;
> ;
> ;
> ;
> ;
> ;
> ;
> ;
> ;
> ;
> ;
> Whoah!
> What happened here?
>
> version of ADITL but if so it missed the mark by a mile.
>
> seemed to be struggling a bit.
>
After all the angst of the rift and the fallout from that it was
pleasant to get a comedy episode.
And what a good one.
So it has Joxer, but instead of the usual pratfalls we've come to
expect, we get a whole new Apeman act.
The plot is harnessed to give us a reason for each character to act out
of character obsessed by Fish (a trait previously established), herself,
and a love story involving an ape.
The episode refers to previous events and background of the Xenaverse
and has nothing to jar the suspension of disbelief.
There are lots of funny and memorable lines, my favourite was Xena's "I
guess you're not from around here" to the ruffian leader.
The epilogue wrapped things up nicely and brought us back to Gabrielle's
S3 emotional turmoils.
There are similarities to "The Quill Is Mighter" using a different
device to have characters act differently than normal and thus produce
the comedy and give us a new slant on the character, but the smaller
space of the episode, concentrating on X & G gives the episode a
different feel.
I have to compare this episode to the H:TLJ "One Fowl Day" which was
shown the next day. I had very low expectations of that, and despite it
being fairly Sorbo free it was a farce (in all senses of the word), even
Bruce Campbell couldn't save it. Which brings us neatly to next week's
Xena episode....
Overall FF&G was one of the best comedy episodes, and very good rated
against all episodes
Xenus.
--
--------------------------------------
Fallen angels, never give them up,
Fallen angels, feel the addiction.
- Buffy Sainte-Marie (Coincidence & likely stories)
Nuncio
>>
>>>Paul Hilling writes:
>>>>>Nuncio <metric...@tesco.net> wrote...
>>>>
>>>>>FFG spoilers
>>>>>;
>>>>>;
>>>>>;
>>>>>;
>>>>>;
>>>>>;
>>>>>;
>>>>>;
>>>>>;
>>>>>;
>>>>>;
>>>>>;
>>>>>;
>>>>>;
>>>>>;
>>>>>;
>>>>>;
>>>>
>>[snip]
>
>>A 'direct quote of an ancient myth'?
>
> By this I meant that they pulled up a myth and followed directly, although
>not *strictly*, something found there. The story of Deiphobus's love for Helen
>is from somewhere ... darn, my wife wants to use the computer, but I'm
>thinking the Aeneid.
Well "Beware Greeks Bearing gifts" is a direct quote from the Aeneid,
so you are on solid ground there.
> In Girls Just Wanna Have Fun, the story of headless Orpheus from Aeschylus
>was used. The Bachae tore his head off, it floated down the river and ended up
>in Lesbos [gasp!] in myth. Well, actually, Xena and Gabrielle (with help from
>Joxer), intercepted it! Joxer's speech to Orpheus about playing the lyre is an
>almost word-for-word quote of Phaedrus's thoughts on lyre playing in Plato's
>Symposium.
still with you at this point...
> So with Fins, Femmes and Gems. It followed the story of Attis and
>Gaia/Cybele/Earth Mother *fairly* closely -- making allowance for camp, farce
>and modern prudishness. In the most extreme version of the story, Attis
>castrates himself for love of his mother, Cybele. After bleeding to death at
>the base of the pine tree (the one Joxer/Attis hits in George of the Jungle
>fashion), he's reborn female. So, incest, self-castration, transgendering,
>lesbianism --- all the elements that make for good family viewing!
OK. I wasn't sure if you were saying that FFG was quoting the Attis myth
or whether there was another myth about Aphrodite deciding she wanted
a star in the skies which they'd lifted. (Like the Herc ep "The Apple"
in which Iolaus gets off lightly!)
>>>>>Dear me; this one was embarrassing to watch. Even Lucy seemed to be
>>>>>struggling a bit.
>>>
>>> Really? I didn't argue with this the first time, but Lucy had so many
>>>scenes with Renee and they all went so well. Especially when she drags her
>>>from the water, and again when obsessed Gabrielle gives her jealousy speech.
>>>
>>
>>It seemed to me that she was mugging as the obsessed Xena.
>>
>>I thought she was hunting for facial expressions - any kind of facial
>>expression - which might work.
>>
>
> Others mentioned that she seemed a bit like Meg. I agree with that, as far
>as it goes.
>
> Of course, if Meg is a look-alike to Xena, it stands to reason that Xena
>would be a look-alike to Meg.
Yes - there was a Meg-like element in there.
And the "Xena drawl" seemed to be in trouble at times.
> "Mugging" is often used in criticisms of Lawless' acting, especially of her
>Meg. (well, actually, I'm just assuming "Meg" is played by Lawless -- I don't
>actually have anything from the credits to support this! <g>) I'm not a
>good judge of acting ability, although I would be willing to put ROC's acting
>ability ahead of Lawless, if forced to choose.
I would guess that ROC is more formally trained certainly.
>
> I guess, for me, "mugging" is an acceptable way to show obsession -- Tony
>Blair mugs for the camera a lot, don't you think? <g>
>
>
>>Mind you, this could be me. It was a performance redolent of "The Furies"
>>and I found *that* Xena a bit off-target too.
>
> Okay, I can see this --- Xena without her full personality was what Lawless
>was going for in that episode, too.
:-)
I guess that round goes to you.
Nunc
Lasse Makholm
[SNIPs]
> > In the beginning, we see the *normal* Gabrielle, focused on the
mission and
> >in full bard mode, yet still able to examine all of the wonders of the
rather
> >more complete temple of Aphrodite than she last visited in FHTBT. She
> >practices a wry tease of credulous Joxer, calling the story of Attis a
great
> >love story. Attis, in myth, castrates himself for love of Cybele and is
reborn
> >as a woman.
This what I love about Cleanthes' posts... I mean how would I ever know
these things, if it wasn't for them? 8^)
> This was a joke inserted specially for Cleanthes I think.
LOL!
> > Gabrielle wanders over to the chichi-chi (XXX) section of Aphrodite's
temple
> >and says "That's not humanly possible" [evidently she doesn't read
fanfic :-}]
> > Xena says confidently, "Sure it it." [evidently she would write
fanfic, had
> >she the time :-}]
>
> This joke was inserted for everyone else! ;-)
Even more LOL! I think you're right on with these two comments... 8^)
--
Lasse
- TJASS ,TWDGTGTPC, Whoosh-Counts, CRS, ICFEAA, funky Xena-moves, FOBT, MOB,
8^), etc, etc... You know the drill...
Lasse Makholm
Cleanthes <brule...@aol.comassus> wrote in message
news:20000305100004...@ng-fx1.aol.com...
[SNIP]
> I think it was the S3 version of the Armus and Foster "direct quote of
> ancient myth episode". The S2 episode then, was `Girls Just Wanna Have
Fun`
> and the season 1 version was `Beware Greeks Bearing Gifts`.
But didn't you also say this about 'The Bitter Suite'? Or is my memory
completely shot?
Xenus
>
> >
> >>Paul Hilling writes:
> >>>>Nuncio <metric...@tesco.net> wrote...
> >>>
> >>>>FFG spoilers
> >>>>;
> >>>>;
> >>>>;
> >>>>;
> >>>>;
> >>>>;
> >>>>;
> >>>>;
> >>>>;
> >>>>;
> >>>>;
> >>>>;
> >>>>;
> >>>>;
> >>>>;
> >>>>;
> >>>>;
> >>>
[snip]
> So with Fins, Femmes and Gems. It followed the story of Attis and
> Gaia/Cybele/Earth Mother *fairly* closely -- making allowance for camp, farce
> and modern prudishness. In the most extreme version of the story, Attis
> castrates himself for love of his mother, Cybele. After bleeding to death at
> the base of the pine tree (the one Joxer/Attis hits in George of the Jungle
> fashion), he's reborn female. So, incest, self-castration, transgendering,
> lesbianism --- all the elements that make for good family viewing!
>
For more (including pictures of Attis) see:
http://www.azstarnet.com/~gallae/build6.htm
You can get a lot of culture on the net nowadays.
[snip]
>
> Cleanthes (GGGHD)
>
> "It would not be better if things happened to people just as they wish."
>
> Heraclitus, fragments 106, 52
Xenus.
Cleanthes
>Cleanthes wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >>>
>> >>>>FFG spoilers
>> >>>>;
>> >>>>;
>> >>>>;
>> >>>>;
>> >>>>;
>> >>>>;
>> >>>>;
>> >>>>;
>> >>>>;
>> >>>>;
>> >>>>;
>> >>>>;
>> >>>>;
>> >>>>;
>> >>>>;
>> >>>>;
>> >>>>;
>> >>>
>
>[snip]
>
>> So with Fins, Femmes and Gems. It followed the story of Attis and
>> Gaia/Cybele/Earth Mother *fairly* closely -- making allowance for camp,
>farce
>> and modern prudishness. In the most extreme version of the story, Attis
>> castrates himself for love of his mother, Cybele. After bleeding to death
>at
>> the base of the pine tree (the one Joxer/Attis hits in George of the Jungle
>> fashion), he's reborn female. So, incest, self-castration,
>transgendering,
>> lesbianism --- all the elements that make for good family viewing!
>>
>
>For more (including pictures of Attis) see:
>
>http://www.azstarnet.com/~gallae/build6.htm
>
>You can get a lot of culture on the net nowadays.
>
>> Heraclitus, fragments 106, 52
>
>Xenus.
>
Thanks! A lot of good pictures there. NOT ONE shows Attis or a Gallae in a
pink nightie! Shucks... <g>
The closest one is http://www.azstarnet.com/~gallae/anglhthm.jpg
Cleanthes
`The Bitter Suite` contained a lot of ancient myth and tarot images, but it
wasn't written by Armus and Foster. So, your memory's fine, but you might want
to double check my qualifiers. Actually, I recommend assuming I've always put
in a tricky qualifier, because I normally do!
Xenus
I think the best Xena episodes like TBS are good because they work on
many levels (and that includes subtext). Having the characters refer to
history and legend puts them in a (loose) timeframe and a culture.
Keeping anachronistic elements down also helps make it seem more "real"
thus aiding a suspension of disbelief.
If the episode improves on rewatching that's a sign it's a good one
working on many levels.
There is also an sense of time passing in Xena, partly due to recurring
characters changing and developing offstage e.g. the Caesar arc. This
is also true of Gabrielle and although we may regret losing the "old"
Gabrielle, it makes the show that more "real".
That is also the main difference between H:TLJ and Xena for me, Hercules
seems to exist in a timeless vacuum with anachronistic elements in your
face nearly every episode. Given that Hercules seems unaging, it's a
pity Iolous wasn't better developed over the series.