PMP on next Sunday
Rick
will be aired next Sunday at 9 pm EDT. This assumes, of course, that the
World Series goes less than 7 games (probably a safe assumption).
If I'm not mistaken, this leaves "Christmas Carol" and "Emily" as the only
episodes not yet rerun.
Rick
Ta'Teria
one is PMP?
Ta'Teria
Rick wrote in message <70i9kv$hpi$1...@comet3.magicnet.net>...
DarkJewl
>I feel asamed for asking, but I missed a lot of the names of the eps. Which
>one is PMP?
Post Modern Prometheus. The black and white ep from fifth season, with the
Great Mutato, the fake Cher, and the shipperific dance at the end.
~DarkJewl~
~The greatest foe lies within the self~
Leigh Anne Vrabel
DarkJewl wrote:
I'm probably going to catch hell for this, but I have to say it. I hated PMP
with a passion. I understood it, but I hated it. Simply put, it is NOT
post-modern, and I HATE it when the entertainment industry throws that term
around without having a ghost of a clue about what it really means. Some
elements of magical realism in your narrative does not post-modernism make.
JMHO.
Leigh Anne
stubborn!roo
Rev. Jihad Frenzy
<vrabe...@duq.edu> wrote:
>
> I'm probably going to catch hell for this, but I have to say it. I hated PMP
> with a passion. I understood it, but I hated it. Simply put, it is NOT
> post-modern, and I HATE it when the entertainment industry throws that term
> around without having a ghost of a clue about what it really means. Some
> elements of magical realism in your narrative does not post-modernism make.
Well, not to flame or anything, but you Do realize it's a play on words on
the 'other' title of Mary Shelly's "Frankenstein"?
--
Rev. Jihad Frenzy
"Gadzooks!", quoth I, "But here's a saucy bawd!"
I, Libertine
by Fredrick R. Ewing
<A HREF="http://www.gis.net/~cht"/A>
Carole Kennedy
Dr. Kennedy helpfully provides the following:
A definition of post-modernism:
B) "Postmodernism and postmodernity[,] a cultural and ideological
configuration variously defined, with different aspects of the general
phenomenon emphasized by different theorists, postmodernity is seen as
involving an end of the dominance of an overarching belief in scientific
rationality and a unitary theory of PROGRESS, the replacement of
empiricist theories of representation and TRUTH, and increased
emphasis on the importance of the unconscious, on free-floating signs
and images, and a plurality of viewpoints. Associated also with the
idea of a postindustrial age (compare POSTINDUSTRIAL SOCIETY [Daniel
Bell]), theorists such as BAUDRILLARD (1983) and Lyotard (1984) make
central to postmodernity a shift from a `productive' to a `reproductive'
social order, in which simulations and models--and more generally,
signs--increasingly constitute the world, so that any distinction
between the appearance and the `real' is lost. Lyotard, for example,
speaks especially of the replacement of any *grand narrative* [les
grands recits] by more local `accounts' of reality as distinctive of
postmodernism and postmodernity. Baudrillard talks of the `triumph of
signifying culture.' Capturing the new orientation characteristic of
postmodernism, compared with portrayals of modernity as an era or a
definite period, the advent of postmodernity is often presented as a
`mood' or `state of mind' (see Featherstone, 1988). If modernism as a
movement in literature and the arts is also distinguished by its
rejection of an emphasis on representation, postmodernism carries this
movement a stage further. Another feature of postmodernism seen by
some theorists is that the boundaries between `high' and `low' culture
tend to be broken down, for example, motion pictures, jazz, and rock
music (see Lash, 1990). According to many theorists, postmodernist
cultural movements, which often overlap with new political tendencies
and social movements in contemporary society, are particularly
associated with the increasing importance of new class fractions, for
example, `expressive professions' within the service class (see Lash and
Urry, 1987)." (David Jary and Julia Jary. eds. THE HARPER COLLINS
DICTIONARY OF SOCIOLOGY. New York: HarperCollins, 1991. 375-6)
fiendis...@my-dejanews.com
c...@NOSPAMgis.net (Rev. Jihad Frenzy) wrote:
> In article <362DD4DA...@duq.edu>, Leigh Anne Vrabel
> <vrabe...@duq.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> > I'm probably going to catch hell for this, but I have to say it. I hated PMP
> > with a passion. I understood it, but I hated it. Simply put, it is NOT
> > post-modern, and I HATE it when the entertainment industry throws that term
> > around without having a ghost of a clue about what it really means.
Please. explain post-modernism to me. Seriously, I've never understood it and
I'm not sure I ever will. . As near as I can figure "post-modern" is a term
applied to something that is art for the sake of intellectual masturbation,
with no entertainment value for "common" people... As some of you may be
picking up, I'm pretty disdainful of ultra-abstract, pseudo-intellectual BS,
which is why I'm away from college for the time being... I guess PMP must be
pretty far from true post-modernism, since I was entertained by it.
--
Miles
"I want to destroy all devils. I can take off my underwear!"
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Monkey5s
>Please. explain post-modernism to me. Seriously, I've never understood it and
>I'm not sure I ever will. . As near as I can figure "post-modern" is a term
>applied to something that is art for the sake of intellectual masturbation,
>with no entertainment value for "common" people...
According to WWWebster's, the term is postmodern (no hyphen):
Main Entry: post·mod·ern
Pronunciation: "pOs(t)-'mä-d&rn, ÷-'mä-d(&-)r&n
Function: adjective
Date: 1949
: of, relating to, or being any of several movements (as in art, architecture,
or literature) that are reactions against the philosophy and practices of
modern movements and are typically marked by revival of traditional elements
and techniques
- post·mod·ern·ism /-d&r-"ni-z&m/ noun
- post·mod·ern·ist /-nist/ adjective or noun
Clear as mud, eh?
Monkey5s
dull,thimble
fiendis...@my-dejanews.com
monk...@aol.com (Monkey5s) wrote:
> Miles irritably asked:
>
> >Please. explain post-modernism to me. Seriously, I've never understood it and
> >I'm not sure I ever will. . As near as I can figure "post-modern" is a term
> >applied to something that is art for the sake of intellectual masturbation,
> >with no entertainment value for "common" people...
>
> According to WWWebster's, the term is postmodern (no hyphen):
>
> Main Entry: post·mod·ern
> Pronunciation: "pOs(t)-'mä-d&rn, ÷-'mä-d(&-)r&n
> Function: adjective
> Date: 1949
> : of, relating to, or being any of several movements (as in art, architecture,
> or literature) that are reactions against the philosophy and practices of
> modern movements and are typically marked by revival of traditional elements
> and techniques
Hmm... First part jibes with what I've picked up... I don't know about the
second part, though, about "traditional" elements. The thing I hate most
about "postmodernism" is that you can't rage against it without looking like
an anti-intellectual yokel...
Directors who deserve a good flogging for promoting the proliferation of
pseudo-intellectual anti-entertainment:
Harmony Korine (Gummo, Kids)
Wong Kar-Wai (Happy Together, et. al.)
Hmm... Well, unfortunately, that's all the complaining I can do at the
moment, as I distance myself from stuff like this so much that I can't think
of much more... It's a shame, this is one of my favorite things to complain
about lately. I know too many otherwise good people who've fallen into the
grip of anti-entertainment cinema... Well, um back to the topic at hand. I
liked PMP, yup.
(I do like Takeshi Kitano. Strangely.)
Leigh Anne Vrabel
Rev. Jihad Frenzy wrote:
> In article <362DD4DA...@duq.edu>, Leigh Anne Vrabel
> <vrabe...@duq.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> > I'm probably going to catch hell for this, but I have to say it. I hated PMP
> > with a passion. I understood it, but I hated it. Simply put, it is NOT
> > post-modern, and I HATE it when the entertainment industry throws that term
> > around without having a ghost of a clue about what it really means. Some
> > elements of magical realism in your narrative does not post-modernism make.
>
> Well, not to flame or anything, but you Do realize it's a play on words on
> the 'other' title of Mary Shelly's "Frankenstein"?
>
That's not a flame! it's an observation!
Yes, I am aware of the connection (since my other field in 19th century Brit., I'd
better!). However, it's not a very clever play on words, simply because
"post-modern" is such a sticky term. I'm probably being too much of a nitpick, but
one of the things I'm studying and writing about right now is the differerence
between modernism & post-modernism, what it means, etc.
Sometimes it's hard to step away from your work. :)
Leigh Anne
conciliatory!roo
Leigh Anne Vrabel
fiendis...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <cht-ya02408000R...@news.gis.net>,
> c...@NOSPAMgis.net (Rev. Jihad Frenzy) wrote:
> > In article <362DD4DA...@duq.edu>, Leigh Anne Vrabel
> > <vrabe...@duq.edu> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I'm probably going to catch hell for this, but I have to say it. I hated PMP
> > > with a passion. I understood it, but I hated it. Simply put, it is NOT
> > > post-modern, and I HATE it when the entertainment industry throws that term
> > > around without having a ghost of a clue about what it really means.
>
> Please. explain post-modernism to me. Seriously, I've never understood it and
> I'm not sure I ever will. .
Nobody does! :)
Technically, "post-modern" is simply a time-frame reference to define everything that
came after "modernism." What is modernism? We don't have all year, but it refers to
the literary practices of a specific group of writers/poets between the two world
wars (some argue that the 20th century began with modernism). Marjorie Perloff is
the best person I've read on modernism.
But to get back to post-mod...
> As near as I can figure "post-modern" is a term
> applied to something that is art for the sake of intellectual masturbation,
> with no entertainment value for "common" people...
This is one interpretation, and one of which i am quite fond. :) The best definition
I can come up with right now is that post-modern literature is self-aware: it KNOWS
that it's an imaginary text and constantly reminds the audience of that. It does all
kinds of things with form to break down conventional narrative...and since I LIKE
conventional narrative, I have a problem with it!
> As some of you may be
> picking up, I'm pretty disdainful of ultra-abstract, pseudo-intellectual BS,
> which is why I'm away from college for the time being...
There's a lot of BS in college, but I hope you'll go back some day! Once you get
past all the crap, a university can be one of the most exciting places in the
world...
> I guess PMP must be
> pretty far from true post-modernism, since I was entertained by it.
I just think the writers were trying too hard That sort of writing has to be
self-aware, but not so self-aware that it announces itself. Kind of like, when you
write a paper, your transition should not be, "My next major point is..."
I don't have all the answers, but I hope people want to keep talking about this!
Leigh Anne
justified!roo
M.Smyth
>> > I'm probably going to catch hell for this, but I have to say it. I
hated PMP>> > with a passion. I understood it, but I hated it. Simply put,
it is NOT
>> > post-modern, and I HATE it when the entertainment industry throws that
term
>> > around without having a ghost of a clue about what it really means.
post-modernism make.
Well OK you didn't like the title, is that a reason to hate the whole
episode?
-M-
Eric S. Smith: Left-Field Marshal
Leigh Anne Vrabel <vrabe...@duq.edu> wrote:
[lines reformatted -- try wrapping at 72 characters or so]
>best definition I can come up with right now is that post-modern
>literature is self-aware: it KNOWS that it's an imaginary text and
>constantly reminds the audience of that. It does all kinds of things
>with form to break down conventional narrative...
So, to those of us who are conversant with postmoderism: how does one of
my all-time favourite episodes, "Jose Chung's From Outer Space," stack up?
Is its style postmodern? In favour of its postmoderism, based upon what I
know and what's been discussed here, I'd raise:
-- aliens who are just guys dressed up like aliens
-- multiple unreliable narrators
-- numerous genre references
>and since I LIKE conventional narrative, I have a problem with it!
I like variety in presentation. As long as what's being presented is
engaging, I'll hang on.
--Eric Smith
Deborah A Tinsley
retells it in a modern context. It demonstrates that the meaning depends on
the teller and the time the story is told. Or do you think it is more of a
deconstructivist effort?
Maybe if you consider the source of the original is not Mary Shelley's
story but the Boris Karloff movie. That movie was also about science going
too far, technology outstripping wisdom, but instead of a horror film, we
got a comedy because in the context of our times what at one time was
mysterious, demonic and terrifying has become familiar and more about how
stories are spun for effect.
The Karloff movie spun Shelley's tale to be more about God vs. Science, and
TXF used the same story to demonstrate monsters are in the eye of the
beholder. Why is that not post-modern?
Deborah
--
"Truth, indeed, may not exist;
science avers it to be only a relation;
but what men took for truth
stares one everywhere in the eye
and begs for sympathy."
--Henry Adams
M.Smyth <msm...@clara.net> wrote in article
<70nq47$k66$2...@eros.clara.net>...
Leigh Anne Vrabel
Eric S. Smith: Left-Field Marshal wrote:
> In article <362F52FD...@duq.edu>,
> Leigh Anne Vrabel <vrabe...@duq.edu> wrote:
>
> [lines reformatted -- try wrapping at 72 characters or so]
Sorry...not my computer, technically. I'm not allowed to change anything.
> >best definition I can come up with right now is that post-modern
> >literature is self-aware: it KNOWS that it's an imaginary text and
> >constantly reminds the audience of that. It does all kinds of things
> >with form to break down conventional narrative...
>
> So, to those of us who are conversant with postmoderism: how does one of
> my all-time favourite episodes, "Jose Chung's From Outer Space," stack up?
> Is its style postmodern? In favour of its postmoderism, based upon what I
> know and what's been discussed here, I'd raise:
>
> -- aliens who are just guys dressed up like aliens
> -- multiple unreliable narrators
> -- numerous genre references
I agree that JCFOS is truly postmodern.
> >and since I LIKE conventional narrative, I have a problem with it!
>
> I like variety in presentation. As long as what's being presented is
> engaging, I'll hang on.
I have to eat a little crow here, because I like anything Darin Morgan writes,
regardless of what it is. He could televise his laundry list and I'd watch it
because he always manages to arrest my attention. I think, however, this is
as much a credit to his dialogue as it is to his presentation.
> --Eric Smith
Getting back to JCFOS, though, Eric: I agree with your assessment of the
narrative. What made this ep work was that at no point did it turn itself
upon the audience and say, "look how clever I am!" Instead, it threw out the
twists and turns and let the viewer proces them at his/her own pace.
You wouldn't happen to be a postmodern critic, would you? ;)
Leigh Anne
encouraged!roo
Leigh Anne Vrabel
M.Smyth wrote:
> >> > I'm probably going to catch hell for this, but I have to say it. I
> hated PMP>> > with a passion. I understood it, but I hated it. Simply put,
> it is NOT
> >> > post-modern, and I HATE it when the entertainment industry throws that
> term
> >> > around without having a ghost of a clue about what it really means.
> Some>> > elements of magical realism in your narrative does not
> post-modernism make.
>
> Well OK you didn't like the title, is that a reason to hate the whole
> episode?
> -M-
It's not just the title...the content bothers me too, but I think I addressed
that in other messages in this thread, so I won't bore everyone by repeating
myself.
Leigh Anne
unpopular!roo (whee!)
Leigh Anne Vrabel
Deborah A Tinsley wrote:
> Why isn't this episode Post Modern? It takes an established story and
> retells it in a modern context. It demonstrates that the meaning depends on
> the teller and the time the story is told. Or do you think it is more of a
> deconstructivist effort?
That's how I do envision it, but I'm willing to be proved wrong!
> Maybe if you consider the source of the original is not Mary Shelley's
> story but the Boris Karloff movie. That movie was also about science going
> too far, technology outstripping wisdom, but instead of a horror film, we
> got a comedy because in the context of our times what at one time was
> mysterious, demonic and terrifying has become familiar and more about how
> stories are spun for effect.
Hey, that's GREAT!
> The Karloff movie spun Shelley's tale to be more about God vs. Science, and
> TXF used the same story to demonstrate monsters are in the eye of the
> beholder. Why is that not post-modern?
Again, I think I mention my problems with the term in other messages in the
thread, but I'm glad you brought up your POV...we need more of this kind of
discussion around here! :)
> Deborah
> --
> "Truth, indeed, may not exist;
> science avers it to be only a relation;
> but what men took for truth
> stares one everywhere in the eye
> and begs for sympathy."
> --Henry Adams
Leigh Anne
impressed!roo
> M.Smyth <msm...@clara.net> wrote in article
> <70nq47$k66$2...@eros.clara.net>...
> >
Deborah A Tinsley
fiendis...@my-dejanews.com wrote in article
> Please. explain post-modernism to me. Seriously, I've never understood it
and
> I'm not sure I ever will. .
snip
> --
> Miles
Post modern example: a machine designed to make store bought cookies look
homemade .
An argument could be made that the entire X-Files series is Post modern,
but I'm not the woman to do it. sigh.
Deborah
Hot4Hose
>with a passion. I understood it, but I hated it. Simply put, it is NOT
>post-modern, and I HATE it when the entertainment industry throws that term
>around without having a ghost of a clue about what it really means. Some
>elements of magical realism in your narrative does not post-modernism make.
>
Ahhhhh... Mary Shelley's novel Frankenstein was actually titled "Frankenstein:
A Modern Prometheus." Calling this epsiode Post-Modern Prometheus was really
more of a word play than an actual attempt to describe itself.
"No!!! NOBODY said 'McDonalds'"!!!!
Sean Carroll
Also, I had this thought while watching PMP the other day.
"Post-Modern" is never used to describe the episode itself. Mulder is
talking about Dr Frankenstein and says "He prefigures the Post-Modern
Prometheus, the genetic engineer ..." "Post-Modern" is not referring o
the events of the episode, but to the concept of genetic engineering.
The Modern Prometheus would have been the mad scientist of Shelley's
time, patching together dead people to create life. Current genetic
engineering is a development that took place *after* the time of this
Modern Prometheus, bringing about a new kind of human Creator -- the
*Post*-Modern Prometheus. "The Post-Modern Prometheus" refers to the
(minor) theme of the episode about the dangers of unregulated genetic
engineering to cause the same disastrous mistakes as Shelley's dark view
of science, not to the literary content of the episode.
--
--Sean
http://freecenter.digiweb.com/science_fiction/Pendrell_Jr/index.html
"Nothing happens in contradiction to nature. Only in contradiction to
what we know of it." --Dana Scully