OT: My First Time Flamed and I Didn't Even Get a T-Shirt
Emilie
for me...
I was recently flamed for the first time at fanfiction.net, when a person left
the comment: That story made me even dumber by reading it.
This may sound childish, but I have mixed emotions of anger and embarrassment.
Sometimes I have gotten no feedback on a story, but that was certainly better
then that comment someone had. I have never gotten that sort of response.
Again, I don't want to sound like a child, but I'm having a hard time dealing
with this. If any writers on this board can relate, perhaps you can post some
suggestions as to what I can do.
-emilie
"I've developed a new philosophy... I only dread one day at a time."
-Charlie Brown
<><><><><><><><><><><>
"All the noise in my brain.
I clamp it to the page so it will be still."
-The Poisonwood Bible by Barbara Kingsolver
Kshar
>I wanted to pop in for a second to see if anyone else has some
words of wisdom
>for me...
>I was recently flamed for the first time at fanfiction.net,
when a person left
>the comment: That story made me even dumber by reading it.
Oh, Emilie, I think you're mistaken. That was a compliment.
You made someone dumber! Your fanfic has made a difference in
some reader's life! How many writers can say that?
Well, that's how I'd look at it, anyway :)
kshar
looks for the silver lining
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
Susanne
>I was recently flamed for the first time at fanfiction.net, when a person left
>the comment: That story made me even dumber by reading it.
>This may sound childish, but I have mixed emotions of anger and embarrassment.
>Sometimes I have gotten no feedback on a story, but that was certainly better
>then that comment someone had. I have never gotten that sort of response.
>Again, I don't want to sound like a child, but I'm having a hard time dealing
>with this. If any writers on this board can relate, perhaps you can post some
>suggestions as to what I can do.
Ignore it. Fanfiction.net is notorious for people who post idiotic
and totally stupid things. If you don't like negative comments,
that's definitely not the place to put your fic. Believe me, I've got
a nice little file of "you suck" comments from there.
Don't take it personally. There are great people at the site, but
there are also people who seem to get their jollies being flat out
mean (and they generally don't sign their reviews either). Any
negative feedback you get from fanfiction.net should be taken with a
really really big grain of salt (preferably attached to a margarita).
:)
Susanne
Katbaran
>left
>the comment: That story made me even dumber by reading it.
>This may sound childish, but I have mixed emotions of anger and
>embarrassment.
Emilie-
I'm one of the general purpose lurkers/readers on this ng. I don't write
fanfic, but I do read alot of it. I have read many stories and such on many
sites. I have made it my personal policy never to flame. I never make negative
comments to authors. Each fic can be considered wonderful by some and terrible
by others. I only send feedback to an author when the fic is just so wonderful
it blows me away. I know this does not help aspiring writers, but I don't feel
it is my place to judge the work of others. We aren't generally given the
particulars about an author, whether they are male or female, age or anything
else. I would hate to make negative comments to a budding high school student
and quash their dreams of writing. I would also hate myself if I made comments
that were to make an author of any age or ability stop writing.
My suggestion to you is to delete it and forget it. It is just one opinion. As
with any kind of writing, some folks will love it and some will hate it. You
took the chance and put your work and creativity on the line and took a hit
from a nasty person. Forgeddabboouitttt!!!! Keep writing and let those stories
flow.
Kathy
(And no, I have not read the fic in question)
Rorie
totally stupid things. If you don't like negative comments, that's
definitely not the place to put your fic. Believe me, I've got a nice
little file of "you suck" comments from there.
>
> Don't take it personally. There are great people at the site, but there
are also people who seem to get their jollies being flat out mean (and they
generally don't sign their reviews either). Any negative feedback you get
from fanfiction.net should be taken with a really really big grain of salt
(preferably attached to a margarita).
> :)
>
> Susanne
ITA, Susanne. Fanfiction.net has provided me with hours of fun at my own
expense. I got flamed for taking down some of my stuff from there... and
the "feedback" that I had received never figured in my decision. That site
has a lot of great stories... but also a lot of childish readers who delight
in tormenting writers.
Now, where can I get a margarita to go with this grain of salt? Oh, and
maybe some marshmellows to roast over those flames. I've got a craving for
S'mores.
~~Rorie
Teddi Litman
Emilie wrote:
> I wanted to pop in for a second to see if anyone else has some words of wisdom
> for me...
> I was recently flamed for the first time at fanfiction.net, when a person left
> the comment: That story made me even dumber by reading it.
Emilie, I must admit it's the first time I visited that site. I couldn't find your
story. Did you post it under a different name? I did look through various
"Reviews" to get a feel for the site. It seems, for the most part, a site that's
supportive of writers. It seems to encourage readers to leave brief responses to
every story read. Indeed, most of the stories there have at least one "Review." A
large majority of those reviews are positive. Some are very blunt constructive
criticisms. And a few are as rude and unhelpful as the comment you received. A
number of those appear to be from the same person who appears to be a bit of a
troll. So I think maybe you have to accept all at that site. In general the site
seems to support new writers. I think it's probably a trade-off. If you are a less
experienced writer, you might have a better chance of receiving feedback there
than in forums where people are generally a bit more diplomatic but tend to ignore
stories by less experienced writers. The site actively encourages quick, easy
feedback; but that quality might also encourage a few rude people to anonymously
toss out obnoxious comments as well.
Teddi
bugs
drag...@aol.com (Emilie) wrote:
> I wanted to pop in for a second to see if anyone else has some words
of wisdom
> for me...
> I was recently flamed for the first time at fanfiction.net, when a
person left
> the comment: That story made me even dumber by reading it.
embarrassment.
better
> then that comment someone had. I have never gotten that sort of
response.
> Again, I don't want to sound like a child, but I'm having a hard time
dealing
> with this. If any writers on this board can relate, perhaps you can
post some
> suggestions as to what I can do.
You're damned if you do, damned if you don't, dealing with this issue.
As writers, we're supposed to be open to criticism--listening with a
bland expression and slight head nod--and yet gracious in our acceptance
of praise. (No jumping up and down, screaming 'YIPEE! I the man!')
Fanfic writing gives us a chance to 'show off': Attempt to show what we
can do with words. Some people want that chance too but perhaps they
can't come up with a plot. Those people become critics. (Different than
constructive criticism: Comments that would help you build a better
story next time.)
I notice when these people are called on it, they tend to claim 'freedom
of speech,' just saying what they think, and don't be so hung up, babe.
Take a page from their book. Free your speech. Tell them you think they
are rude and insensitive. If they have that right to say what they
think, so do you.
Or don't. Because lowering yourself is just that; going down, not up.
--bugs, who's been known to stoop on an occasion or two
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Minismith
>I was recently flamed for the first time at fanfiction.net,
Welcome to the club. There are some lovely people who frequent the site, but
it does seem to attract a disproportionate number of feedback trolls.
>when a person left the comment: That story made me even dumber by reading it.
Obviously the person who wrote the feedback overestimated his/her initial level
of intelligence. Keep writing and don't let the idiots get you down.
Nancy
Regards,
The Minismith
mini...@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/minismith/index.html
Tim Scott
wisdom
for me...
the comment: That story made me even dumber by reading it.
Sometimes I have gotten no feedback on a story, but that was certainly better
then that comment someone had. I have never gotten that sort of response.
Again, I don't want to sound like a child, but I'm having a hard time dealing
with this. If any writers on this board can relate, perhaps you can post some
suggestions as to what I can do.
-emilie
It's never childish to feel insulted when insult is given. My own first
impulse would be to want to punch that person in the snoot. However, that way
lies an assault charge, so...
My best suggestion is to pay attention to the names of the people giving you
feedback. If a writer whose work you respect gives critical feedback (which is
not the same as negative feedback even though it can feel that way sometimes)
then you might want to follow up the email and ask for specific suggestions on
how to improve the offending passage(s).
Critical feedback is manna from heaven to me when it comes from a person who
knows what they're talking about. How else am I going to improve my stories if
people don't tell me what does and doesn't work for them? The difficulty lies
in knowing who is and is not competent to offer such criticism and how to
differentiate them from the mean spirited folks who just want to vent on you.
The best suggestion I can offer is to ask those writers whose work you admire
who they use for beta-reading and/or editing and then ask those people if they
can help you, too. If not maybe they can point you toward someone who can
help.
Best of luck.
Regards,
Tim Scott
Famous last words: "Don't worry, Lieutenant. Their artillery can't possibly
hit us at this ran--"
Red Valerian
wrote:
>>I was recently flamed for the first time at fanfiction.net,
>
Oh lord - I can't count the number of negative comments I've had from
Fanfiction.net. If you look at the alphabetical list of X-files
stories there, one of mine comes out first, so it gets a lot of
traffic and a lot of comment. My personal favourite 'review' was the
single-word: "Bleagh!"
That was it. Just the one word.
You really don't want to worry about the "Your story made me dumber"
comment - the person had obviously not even read it.
Red V
trajan
Trajan
viole...@my-deja.com
drag...@aol.com (Emilie) wrote:
> I wanted to pop in for a second to see if anyone else has some words
of wisdom
> for me...
> I was recently flamed for the first time at fanfiction.net, when a
person left
> the comment: That story made me even dumber by reading it.
> This may sound childish, but I have mixed emotions of anger and
embarrassment.
> Sometimes I have gotten no feedback on a story, but that was
certainly better
> then that comment someone had. I have never gotten that sort of
response.
> Again, I don't want to sound like a child, but I'm having a hard time
dealing
> with this. If any writers on this board can relate, perhaps you can
post some
> suggestions as to what I can do.
>
> -emilie
> -Charlie Brown
> <><><><><><><><><><><>
> "All the noise in my brain.
> I clamp it to the page so it will be still."
> -The Poisonwood Bible by Barbara Kingsolver
>
>
This sounds like the kind of comment that would be made by someone who
thinks stupidity is cute, funny or attractive. The woods are full of
imbeciles; try to ignore them.
-- Violet, who has the following posted on her office wall:
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the
strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them
better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena,
whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives
valiantly; who errs, and comes short again and again, because there is
no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive
to do the deeds; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions;
who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end
the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at
least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with
those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.
-- Theodore Roosevelt
Susanne
>NOW I have to check this site out...
>Trajan
For all its faults, Fanfiction.net is a fascinating place. I
recommend it. They have fanfic from what seems like every t.v. show
ever aired (Laverne and Shirley fanfic? You bet!). It's a great
place to sample fic from other shows (and it will remind you what high
quality XF fanfic is). :)
If you can stomach the occasional pointless vitriolic feedback
attached to your story (always anonymously of course) it's a good
place to post your fic as well. You'll get interesting feedback you
won't get anywhere else, and the "signed" reviews are more
constructive. You'll also have an audience that may be less "focused"
than many of the people on the XF mailing lists and whatnot, which
makes for interesting comments from people who don't know every line
from every ep.
It's a crazy place, but fun. I have no regrets about putting my
stories there, even though some people wasted no time telling me they
hate my stuff.
Susanne
MareZX
>left
>the comment: That story made me even dumber by reading it.
>This may sound childish, but I have mixed emotions of anger and
>embarrassment.
>Sometimes I have gotten no feedback on a story, but that was certainly better
>then that comment someone had. I have never gotten that sort of response.
>Again, I don't want to sound like a child, but I'm having a hard time dealing
>with this. If any writers on this board can relate, perhaps you can post
>some
>suggestions as to what I can do.
>
>-emilie
I wouldn't put much stock in it if it came from fanfiction.net and was
unsigned. Some of my stories have gotten some bizarre comments over there too,
but I usually just let those roll off my back.
It's when you get 7 e-mails from someone, lovingly detailing why they hated
each chapter of your WIP, and you spend 2 hours sobbing on the desk, that you
should *really* have a hard time dealing <g>
Mare, who usually processes and moves on within 24 hours
Halrloprillalar
hg...@dial.pipex.com wrote on 8/13/00 8:29 PM:
> Oh lord - I can't count the number of negative comments I've had from
> Fanfiction.net. If you look at the alphabetical list of X-files
> stories there, one of mine comes out first, so it gets a lot of
> traffic and a lot of comment. My personal favourite 'review' was the
> single-word: "Bleagh!"
Share time! These are some of my fave flames from
fanfiction.net, for my Star War slash. (I don't post my
XF fic there.) Sometimes I enjoy the flames more than
the compliments.
"THAT WAS HORRIBLE! YOU DEFILE THE STAR WARS NAME!!"
"Okay, I'm going to be sick. What the hell is your
problem? Couldn't you write something that isn't
guy/guy? Your writing is sick and absolutely horrible
and ff.net doesn't need this on the site."
"I skipped the actual story so I could stay uncorupted
and tell you that your a MORON! Jar Jar porn?! Now I've
heard of everything. Your a sick person and I'm glad
your not my neighbor."
"Uh...I REALLY didn't want to read this. This is just
plain sick. Yuck... Just skimming it made me
half-sick.."
And my absolute favourite:
"This is the worst peice of trash ever. It does not
deserve to be called fanfiction more like fan
corruption."
I am proud.
-Hal, fan corruptor
"Who is this?" Obi-Wan asked Qui-Gon.
Qui-Gon smiled. "This is my new friend, Jar Jar."
-- Dangers of the Core by Jim Thomas
http://prillalar.tripod.com/fic/fic.html
Ms. AM
You pretty badly need a beta-reader. There are lots of little annoying
errors throughout. The attempt at a stylistic mood piece fails badly when
there are too many problems--it needs to be tight and perfect. -
I end up wanting to say well, guess what sweetheart this story did have beta
reading done and has been well recieved other places. All I had to do was
pull up some previous feedback such as this...
I just wanted to say that I read your story 'kiss the sea'. The visual
imagery was simply stunning. It seemed so real that I felt as if I was
there too. Normally, I don't like the stories that have Scully in a
dreamlike state, alone and introspective. Something about this story
reached me. I think its a 'keeper'
or this... I just read "Kiss the Sea". It's a wonderfully poetic story, a
great follow-up of a fantastic episode. Ever since I saw AF for the first
time ( I live in Europe, it hasn't "officially" aired here yet) the image of
the boy on the beach was sticking around in my mind and I'm glad that you've
written a story that deals with this idea some more.
I love the way you fuse AF with the "Footsteps" poem. It also made me think
of the "Christmas Carol / Emily" arc, the scene where Scully's
walking along the beach against the storm. As for the boy from AF, I was
thinking of him as a symbol of Mulder's innocence. Just think back to the
Pilot, how innocent Mulder still was, spraying the X on the road. His quest
was "only" about his sister. That was "all that mattered". Then somewhere
along the way there were thousands of things which distracted him from his
quest: Scully's
abduction, her cancer, Emily etc. All these things caused Mulder to lose his
innocence bit by bit as he came to realise just *how* complex his quest was,
that it wasn't only about Samantha anymore.
And think about Season 5 when he temporarily lost all faith in his quest.
But it wasn't only the bad things, it was also their changing relationship
and finally their love for each other which became more of a focus than
"just" his initial search. Of course, all these experiences also made Mulder
more
mature. So I guess the boy's comment about Mulder destroying the sand-UFO
was referring to all that. Something was calling Mulder's attention back to
the the direction in which his quest was leading him originally. Thus, when
mature!Mulder and the boy joined in building the spaceship they built a much
bigger and much more beautiful one than the boy would have been able to
create alone.
The boy in your story fits in beaufifully with all that, especially in the
following lines: "Was the boy carrying the man? Was he stepping forward
under the heavy burden of a weight much larger than his own?" I haven't seen
much else of season 7 yet but with Samantha's fate having been resolved in
"Closure" the focus of Mulder's quest shifted again: Samantha's fate had to
be resolved for Mulder and Scully to move their relationship to the next
level, so to speak, and I guess the main focus of Mulder's quest is now to
find out what happened to Scully (which is confirmed by the pregnancy and
spoilers for s8).
So when the boy in your story is weeping and can't understand why Mulder
first helped him build
the spaceship and then left him alone again it fits the interpretation of
Mulder having again abandoned his quest (ie Scully and his child). I
wouldn't interpret the boy in AF as CC's foreshadowing Mulder's and Scully's
child -- the X-files is much too complex for "straightforward"
interpretations like that. And I guess so is your story, theoretically the
child could be Mulder's inner child or Mulder's and Scully's child as you
suggested. I'm opting for ambiguity because I think once you've found out
and nailed down the "one and only true meaning" of the boy on the beach both
the show and your brilliant story would lose an essential part of their
magic. For my own sake I'll just fuse all these complex aspects in a
kaleidoscope of beautifully poetic images.
Uh, this feedback-email has developed kind of a life of its own. If you're
still reading, let me just say one more thing: Keep on writing such
brilliant stories!
Now I don't think I'm anywhere near, brilliant, I consider myself a mediocre
writer at best, but I'm having fun and isn't that the point of writing
fanfiction. When I started I didn't have any beta readers, I just
posted--errors and all--but I recieved some very constructive feedback and
ended up deciding to polish what I write, by finding some beta readers.
So in the end I guess it's up to us as individuals to take comments whether
good or bad and decide how to use them. I consider fanfiction one of the few
places to use a rather 'open' writing style, most books you pick up don't
have the use of dashes, ellipses or things like "Scuh-lee." Or even ways to
show character thoughts- brackets, asterisks, whatever. Is this poor form,
maybe, does any of it help you to visualize the action? For me it does, if I
read "Scuh-lee" vs. "Scully" depending on the plot of course I can hear how
DD as M, would say that word..."Scuh-lee" to me can be a whining, pleading,
worried...while the other is more normal conversation, depending on the
scene.
Either way, have fun with what you're doing and choose to either take
comments or ignore them. Personnally I'm gonna keep posting to that site,
hoping that someone will offer me some constructive advice. Maybe that
person thought they were, but it didn't really come across that way for
me....April
Red Valerian
<pril...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Share time! These are some of my fave flames from
>fanfiction.net, for my Star War slash. (I don't post my
>XF fic there.) Sometimes I enjoy the flames more than
>the compliments.
LOL, Hal. But hey - I remember giving 'Substitutes for Alcohol in
Cooking' some perfectly lovely feedback on Fanfiction Net, so
hopefully it all evens out.
Actually, I can't share very many more negative comments, as most
people have been kind to me on the site. I had this objection to the
Skinner/Scully combo once, but that was about it:
"This might just be me, but I only tolerate smut when it's MSR or the
like. This NC17 stuff just hits me on a flat note in here. SUMMARY: It
wasn't good for me."
I hate to admit it, but I'm actually jealous of your 'critiques!' I
want to be a DEFILER OF THE X-FILES.
Maybe if I try very hard, one day......one day......
Red
Emilie
much better now, and I really do appreciate everyone's comments. The
positivity from everyone was incredibly kind to my silly problem. Really,
though, thank you :)
Teddi Litman
Halrloprillalar wrote:
>
>
> Share time! These are some of my fave flames from
> fanfiction.net, for my Star War slash. (I don't post my
> XF fic there.) Sometimes I enjoy the flames more than
> the compliments.
>
>
>
> "I skipped the actual story so I could stay uncorupted
> and tell you that your a MORON! Jar Jar porn?! Now I've
> heard of everything. Your a sick person and I'm glad
> your not my neighbor."
>
This one is classic! I don't know which is more beautiful: the fact the
troll didn't read the story, the name calling, or the number of
spelling/grammar errors packed into a few sentences. If there were awards
for flames, this one should win first prize. You should feel proud someone
like this doesn't appreciate you. <G>
Teddi
bugs
Red Valerian <hg...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
> Actually, I can't share very many more negative comments, as most
> people have been kind to me on the site. I had this objection to the
> Skinner/Scully combo once, but that was about it:
>
> "This might just be me, but I only tolerate smut when it's MSR or the
> like. This NC17 stuff just hits me on a flat note in here. SUMMARY: It
> wasn't good for me."
>
> I hate to admit it, but I'm actually jealous of your 'critiques!' I
> want to be a DEFILER OF THE X-FILES.
>
> Maybe if I try very hard, one day......one day......
>
> Red
Of course, curiosity drove me to look at the site and it appears to
offer a refreshing alternative to the game we sometimes see played by
certain readers: jeering at unintentional badfic. Giggling over
badfeedback? How many spelling errors and self-important insults can be
fit into one sentence? And I did find Red's fic's 'review' puzzling.
Let's see, the summary says that it's going to be Frohike, Skinner,
Mulder/Sc. That is repeated in the classification. Why did she expect
MSR? Was she saying no non-MSR should be written? She will only read
MSR? Then why did she read the story? The entire thing gave my brain
more of workout than it's had in ages.
And the delightful double entendre of 'It wasn't good for me'!
-- bugs
Susanne
>Share time! These are some of my fave flames from
>fanfiction.net, for my Star War slash. (I don't post my
>XF fic there.) Sometimes I enjoy the flames more than
>the compliments.
Okay, I'll play! Of the "reviews" I've gotten, this is my favorite.
It's not technically a flame, I guess, but it was posted anonymously.
I have it printed out and taped to my monitor because it amuses me.
[Cut and pasted from the site]
"There are several good metaphers in the story, but they are
overwhelmed by what appears to be the author showing off her ability
to use her thesaurus. Stories which use words that force most people
to reach for their dictionary tend to distract/disinterest readers.
Simplicity and grace in language, in combination with imaginative
descriptions seems to be a skill you haven't mastered yet. As an
editor I would suggest that you lay off your dependence upon sentance
fragments (they jot the flow of the story pretty badly) and lessen
your use of 'dictionary' english. Although the older/dusty words might
sound classic in something by the Bronte sisters, they limit your
readership - there's a reason so many modern people *hate* the
Brontes."
Susanne, who would love to be a Bronte...
Susanne
>Saying, "That sucks" is lazy and harsh. But writing to tell an author that she
>might want to cut back on fragments or flowery language actually indicates some
>effort and editorial discretion on the part of the feedbacker.
I agree, and in the instance I supplied, I take no issue with the
opinions themselves. It's the approach and tone which amused me--and
I see I didn't make that clear. I won't try to follow up. Just chalk
it up to my own little weird take on things and, ultimately, a bad
example.
S.
Teddi Litman
Kipler wrote:
>
>
> Being willing to accept feedback means being willing to hear, once in a while,
> that your writing is not yet perfect. This is a good place to learn that.
>
>
Yay Kipler! :) I must admit I was taken a bit aback by the person who reacted
badly to the suggestion of getting a beta reader because there were too many errors
in the story. To me, it seems like throwing away a good opportunity to flippantly
dismiss that suggestion with the response that you did have a beta and and others
liked the story. Beta readers are human too; and it is well within the realm of
possibility that your beta missed those errors. I would think if someone suggested
you use a beta and you did use a beta that maybe you should consider getting
another person to beta read your work. How about asking your critic to please
indicate the errors he sees and asking a few others whose writings skill you
respect whether they agree that these are errors? It is wonderful if you have ten
responses of gushing praise to offset one response of constructive criticism.
However, if you are only going to totally dismiss constructive criticism because of
the gushing praise, why bother to ask for honest feedback? If gushing praise is all
you appreciate, please be honest and ask readers to "Please only let me know if you
liked it. I'd rather not receive criticism." There's nothing wrong with doing
that. It's honest: you don't have to hear from someone who doesn't think your story
is wonderful; and they don't have to waste their time offering you constructive
criticism if they know you don't appreciate it. I note some writers ask for "No
flames," but that's inadequate if what you really resist is criticism. Constructive
criticism is *not* a flame. Don't say "Please send me feedback," and then
flippantly dismiss a valid opinion because it isn't praise. Don't wonder why you
don't get feedback in the future if you do that.
Teddi
Teddi Litman
"Pita M." wrote:
>
>
> As for constructive criticism, I love getting it. I'm the first to admit that
> my writing is far from the best, and I welcome anyone who wants to help me get
> better. But it's all in the *tone* of the criticism. It can be the best
> suggestion in the world, but if it's phrased nastily the author isn't as likely
> to realize that it's good advice.
>
> Here's my example, and then I'll shut up. <g>
> If someone says "This sucks, I hate this because... and this *really* sucked
> because...," then the author is may be too busy freaking out over *hate* and
> *sucked* to look at the *because* in the feedback. But if the feedback says
> "This didn't work for me because..." and gives reasonable problems, then the
> author is more likely to listen to the advice. They may not take it, but at
> least they won't dismiss it immediately as a worthless flame.
>
I agree. I'm all for diplomacy. It would be wonderful if everyone was always
perfectly diplomatic when offering constructive criticism. However, often something
useful can be found in the comments that fall somewhere between the two extremes of
perfectly diplomatic and flame. Just as a writer would not like readers to
completely dismiss his story because of a few spelling errors maybe a writer should
not completely dismiss a criticism that isn't perfectly diplomatic.
To give some examples offered in this thread.
"That story made me dumber." That's a rude and completely unhelpful comment. It
could be classified as a flame depending on your definition of the word "flame."
Either way such a comment can be easily dismissed.
It's not the same thing as:
"You pretty badly need a beta-reader. There are lots of little annoying
errors throughout. The attempt at a stylistic mood piece fails badly when
there are too many problems--it needs to be tight and perfect. -" These comments
are *blunt*; they could possibly be offered a bit more diplomatically. However, I
don't think such comments should be flippantly dismissed. I feel the writer is
missing the point about *feedback* if she offers the comments of unadulterated
praise she received as a retort.
Teddi
Kipler
say that not ALL of it seems to be flaming or without reason.
Saying, "That sucks" is lazy and harsh. But writing to tell an author that she
might want to cut back on fragments or flowery language actually indicates some
effort and editorial discretion on the part of the feedbacker. Sure, it's just
one person's opinion, and should be taken as such - but so should all the
feedback that says, "I loved the flowery language." And, IMO, a well-reasoned
letter full of constructive criticism should be given more weight than a
drive-by "YOU RULE!"
Being willing to accept feedback means being willing to hear, once in a while,
that your writing is not yet perfect. This is a good place to learn that.
--Kipler
penelopody
author that she
> >might want to cut back on fragments or flowery language actually
indicates some
> >effort and editorial discretion on the part of the feedbacker.
>
> opinions themselves. It's the approach and tone which amused me--and
> I see I didn't make that clear. I won't try to follow up. Just chalk
> it up to my own little weird take on things and, ultimately, a bad
> example.
>
> S.
>
But it was pretty funny. I laughed. The Bronte comment, and the
sanctimoniousness... And the horrid spelling just doesn't stand hand
in hand with 'as an editor...' As the person didn't sign it I think
it's fine to hold the comment up to a wee bit of mockery.
I promptly found my way to fanfiction.net and tried to find some nasty
reviews. Much fun (though not so much for the author I guess). It
made me wish for flames so I posted to the site to see if I'm cool
enough to attract any <g>
P.
--
Cuckoo! Cuckoo!
While I meditated on that theme
Day dawned.
penelopody
> letter full of constructive criticism should be given more weight
than a
> drive-by "YOU RULE!"
>
> Being willing to accept feedback means being willing to hear, once in
a while,
> that your writing is not yet perfect. This is a good place to learn
that.
>
> --Kipler
>
and take it on board so next time is improved. I have a better idea of
what is good and bad in my writing after just one story. The quality
of writing here is pretty surprising and the quality of readership
seems to be similarly good. Many (though not all) opinions are well
worth hearing. Especially if someone says you need a beta reader - I
mean it's not just an opinion it provides its own solution.
It's nice to be pleasant about it though - sweeten the blow to ye olde
ego.
Pita M.
>I promptly found my way to fanfiction.net and tried to find some nasty
>reviews. Much fun (though not so much for the author I guess). It
>made me wish for flames so I posted to the site to see if I'm cool
>enough to attract any <g>
<snicker> You know what? I did the same thing. I ran right over there and
posted what I consider some of my best stuff, just to see what would happen.
As for constructive criticism, I love getting it. I'm the first to admit that
my writing is far from the best, and I welcome anyone who wants to help me get
better. But it's all in the *tone* of the criticism. It can be the best
suggestion in the world, but if it's phrased nastily the author isn't as likely
to realize that it's good advice.
Here's my example, and then I'll shut up. <g>
If someone says "This sucks, I hate this because... and this *really* sucked
because...," then the author is may be too busy freaking out over *hate* and
*sucked* to look at the *because* in the feedback. But if the feedback says
"This didn't work for me because..." and gives reasonable problems, then the
author is more likely to listen to the advice. They may not take it, but at
least they won't dismiss it immediately as a worthless flame.
Did I just go off on a tangent? Well, if you got to the end, that was about a
nickels worth. =)
Regards!
Pita
--Proud to be OBSSE--
Visit the X-Files Archive
http://fly.to/XFArchives
Ms. AM
I feel the writer is missing the point about *feedback* if she offers the
comments of unadulterated praise she received as a retort.
I don't think I'm missing the point of feedback and I didn't offer the as
you call it unadulterated praise as a retort. I mainly was using that as an
example of a reader who took the time to tell me what she/he liked about my
story, in detail.. It would have been the same if it was negative. My
meaning is it's nice to have a basis for knowing exactly what did or didn't
work and the comment from fanfiction just didn't help me to figure exactly
what/where she/he saw a problem(s), I would like to contact the reviewer and
ask but I think it was unsigned. That's it and peace to all., remember nov.
5 is coming up fast...*g*...April
Deirdre
> you have ten responses of gushing praise to offset one response of
> constructive criticism. However, if you are only going to totally
> dismiss constructive criticism because of the gushing praise, why
> bother to ask for honest feedback?
Actually, what disturbed me about what Ms. AM did was posting what was
apparently private feedback to off-set the public "negative" comment
that she received. It's like playing "whose penis is bigger" with
feedback. (And there's absolutely no way to verify whether she did or
didn't make it up on the spot.)
Private feedback is private email. She's now someone I would
**NEVER** send feedback to, even/especially positive feedback. If I
wanted to make my feedback public, I would post it to ATXC. And I
rarely, rarely chose to do so--I don't give a damn if it's positive or
negative. As far as I can tell (you know, since she stripped the
names and everything) she violated the rule that private email should
*never* be posted to the newsgroup and I doubt that she'd gotten the
people's permission before doing so.
Deirdre
Brandon Ray
Teddi Litman wrote:
>
>
> Kipler wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Being willing to accept feedback means being willing to hear, once in a while,
> > that your writing is not yet perfect. This is a good place to learn that.
> >
> >
>
> Yay Kipler! :) I must admit I was taken a bit aback by the person who reacted
> badly to the suggestion of getting a beta reader because there were too many errors
> in the story. To me, it seems like throwing away a good opportunity to flippantly
> dismiss that suggestion with the response that you did have a beta and and others
> liked the story. Beta readers are human too; and it is well within the realm of
> possibility that your beta missed those errors. I would think if someone suggested
> you use a beta and you did use a beta that maybe you should consider getting
> another person to beta read your work.
Or just maybe the person making the criticism is wrong. IMHO, sending an "feedback"
email that says, "You need a beta reader" is rude. I don't even really subscribe to
the "constructive criticism" theory of feedback. When a story is posted, it's a
finished work, and it ought to be read as such. Beta reading is something that
happens *before* the story is posted, and it is done by invitation from the author.
--
You're dead you bastards!! I was Krycek birthday party girl! -- Narida said this on
AIM late one night. Don't ask. ;)
==========================
But you *can* ask about my fanfic:
http://www.avalon.net/~publius/MyStories.html
You can also ask about my fanfic recs:
http://www.avalon.net/~publius/MyRecs.html
Brandon Ray
bugs wrote:
>
>
> Let's see, the summary says that it's going to be Frohike, Skinner,
> Mulder/Sc. That is repeated in the classification. Why did she expect
> MSR? Was she saying no non-MSR should be written? She will only read
> MSR? Then why did she read the story? The entire thing gave my brain
> more of workout than it's had in ages.
Well, quite honestly, it seems to me that "Frohike, Skinner, Mulder/Sc"
could defensibly be interpreted to mean that it's MSR, and that Frohike and
Skinner are in the story, but are not part of any romantic relationship. I
don't mean to split too many hairs, here, but that seems to me to be a
plausible interpretation of that description.
Jennifer Scott
enormous debate/ discussion erupted over its merits and its faults.
Now, because so much of that criticism was stuff in the vein of "I hated it"
and "It made me feel violated to even have read it", the discussion devolved
into, as I recall it, an enormous flame war.
Conversely, if you scrolled through, past the malicious messages, the story's
defenders wound up posting what is probably the most intelligent and
well-thought out analyses that I've ever seen, especially in XF fandom.
Now, if I had been Mustang Sally or Rivka T, I probably would have been
offended/hurt/angry/upset/fillinblank over the callous way my baby was being
treated. But on the other hand, when I got to the parts that made me realize
people had read, paid attntion to, and respected at least parts of my story...
I can't really imagine a better gratification.
My point is: you take the good with the bad. If you choose to focus on the
negative, you won't learn nearly as much about your story or your style, and
you'll probably miss the tacit praise.
~Jennifer Scott
Mira...@aol.com
Come visit me! http://members.aol.com/Mirax327/home.html
"Wouldn't it be better if we abducted and anal probed their religious or
political leaders, instead of any idiot in a pickup truck?"
swikstr
> Does everyone remember back when Tikkun Olam was first posted here? An
> enormous debate/ discussion erupted over its merits and its faults.
> Now, because so much of that criticism was stuff in the vein of "I hated it"
> and "It made me feel violated to even have read it", the discussion devolved
> into, as I recall it, an enormous flame war.
Actually, I don't recall that as a flame war at all. There was a lot of
intelligent, diverse commentary about the story and why it worked or why it
didn't. And I thought the discussion remained very civil (if strongly
opinionated) despite the inevitable thread drift.
Perhaps I missed some flammage towards the end. But I did want to point
out that just because people have strong opinions about one thing or
another and are willing to come forward with them and back them up -- that
doesn't make it a flame war. People can and will debate vigorously on this
ng, but I don't recall the "TO" discussion as being littered with personal
attacks.
As to how Rivka and Sally felt about having their story be the locus of
that kind of review, I really wouldn't know. Unlike a similar situation
that arose with the posting of Dasha and Plausible Deniability's "The
Professional," (another fairly intense but civilized discussion) we never
did get the authors' take on the whole debate. On the one hand, I would
think it would be gratifying to have something you've written inspire such
a sustaining thread. On the other, there *was* some constructive
critiquing going on in a very public manner. Personally, I don't know how
I would feel about that as an author, but when you post to a public forum
like USENET, you're taking your sanity into your own hands.
IIRC, quite a few flattering things were said by people (myself included,
though I didn't care for "TO") about Sally and Rivka's writing -- including
stories other than "TO."
> Conversely, if you scrolled through, past the malicious messages, the story's
> defenders wound up posting what is probably the most intelligent and
> well-thought out analyses that I've ever seen, especially in XF fandom.
Hold on. It sounds as though you're saying that the only "intelligent,
well thought-out analysis" was the kind that defended the story.
I don't think that's fair. Intelligent, well reasoned critique can and
should be potentially positive *or* negative. Certainly, Sally and Rivka
have always produced a quality product in terms of mechanics, but the "TO"
discussion was about much more than that. Specifically, it related to
deep-seated issues of characterization and the trends we see in ATXC fic
*in general*. Some people took issue with the characterization of Mulder
and Scully and said so. And said why. That's not flaming. Those same
people were also willing to back up their arguments when challenged by
others who defended the story.
I'm not saying that one side was right or wrong. But both sides were
certainly entitled to express their views in this forum. That's really
what this place was supposed to be about, no?
> Now, if I had been Mustang Sally or Rivka T, I probably would have been
> offended/hurt/angry/upset/fillinblank over the callous way my baby was being
> treated. But on the other hand, when I got to the parts that made me realize
> people had read, paid attntion to, and respected at least parts of my story...
> I can't really imagine a better gratification.
I'm sure that's true. But people could have read, paid attention to and
respected parts of the story -- and still not have liked it, and said why.
> My point is: you take the good with the bad. If you choose to focus on the
> negative, you won't learn nearly as much about your story or your style, and
> you'll probably miss the tacit praise.
And I guess I would say that criticism (the kind that isn't effusive
praise) isn't necessarily "bad." It may or may not make the author(s) feel
all that great, but this is a place for the posting and discussion of
fanfic. Sally and Rivka posted "TO" here and the story sufficiently moved,
disturbed and inspired people to the point where they felt they had to
discuss its content. How you choose to view that kind of discussion is
another matter, but I actually think this ng conducted itself pretty
admirably in that particular case. I've seen other story threads
degenerate quickly into ad hominem attacks against the author or the genre,
but I don't recall the "TO" debate quite that way. Nor the debate over
"The Professional."
You know, this reminds me of a discussion that came up at ATXA about
"TFWID" the other day, where I remarked that any episode that manages to
sustain such long-term comprehensive interest, positive and negative,
cannot be properly termed a "failure." The same would apply to fanfic.
Looking at it that way, a story that provokes the kind of discussion that
"TO" did is anything but a failure.
And so is the critique that followed...
-swik
Fic Bullpen at:
http://bullpen.simplenet.com
--
"Only human..."
-- Agent Jones,
"The Matrix"
Becky C.
wrote:
>Okay, I'll play! Of the "reviews" I've gotten, this is my favorite.
>It's not technically a flame, I guess, but it was posted anonymously.
>I have it printed out and taped to my monitor because it amuses me.
>
>[Cut and pasted from the site]
>"There are several good metaphers in the story, but they are
>overwhelmed by what appears to be the author showing off her ability
>to use her thesaurus. Stories which use words that force most people
>to reach for their dictionary tend to distract/disinterest readers.
>Simplicity and grace in language, in combination with imaginative
>descriptions seems to be a skill you haven't mastered yet. As an
>editor I would suggest that you lay off your dependence upon sentance
>fragments (they jot the flow of the story pretty badly) and lessen
>your use of 'dictionary' english. Although the older/dusty words might
>sound classic in something by the Bronte sisters, they limit your
>readership - there's a reason so many modern people *hate* the
>Brontes."
Ooooh, you lucky thing, you. You got commended on your good metaphers
-- personally, there's nothing I love more than a good metapher -- and
the critic in question clearly implies that you're the sort of person
who would own reference texts like a dictionary or a thesaurus. Plus,
your word choice tends to give you disinterested readers -- people
with no set preconceptions or prejudices, who can read your story with
an open mind! And you got compared to a Bronte! What more could any
author hope for?
Becky C.
Becky C.
wrote:
>I hate to admit it, but I'm actually jealous of your 'critiques!' I
>want to be a DEFILER OF THE X-FILES.
Red, as far as I'm concerned, you can defile the X-files any time you
want.
Becky C.
Jennifer Scott
>out that just because people have strong opinions about one thing or
>another and are willing to come forward with them and back them up -- that
>doesn't make it a flame war.
ITA. what I was referring to were the people who denigrated what they
disagreed with to the point that they overlooked its positive points.
>Hold on. It sounds as though you're saying that the only "intelligent,
>well thought-out analysis" was the kind that defended the story.
Oh, nonononono. To my recollection, the people who didn't care for the story
but still found things to praise about it offered up some of the most
insightful points.
> Some people took issue with the characterization of Mulder
>and Scully and said so. And said why. That's not flaming.
You're right, it's not. I never meant to imply that it was, and if I was
misunderstood, I apologize.
>> My point is: you take the good with the bad. If you choose to focus on
>the
>> negative, you won't learn nearly as much about your story or your style,
>and
>> you'll probably miss the tacit praise.
>
>And I guess I would say that criticism (the kind that isn't effusive
>praise) isn't necessarily "bad." It may or may not make the author(s) feel
>all that great, but this is a place for the posting and discussion of
>fanfic.
It wasn't the criticism I was referring to as bad; it was the public postings
from people who rejected the story without evver having completed it.
To my way of thinking, "I didn't care for this because..." is part of the good.
It's the incompletely informed (read: those who didn't read, but still felt
the need to bash) messages that I was thinking of when wrote 'the bad'.
d.LiNeAtE
<Pine.NEB.3.96.100081...@shell-2.enteract.com>:
> There's so much crap posted, Brandon, that
> saying that we're not allowed to give
> criticism - to call crap "crap" - is just
> plain wrong.
I don't think you'll get away with calling crap crap publically. It's
your right, but I'd advise against it unless you want to start a war or
fast destroy this good-humored place.
What is accomplished by calling crap crap? What's the exact nature of
crap? Besides, what one person thinks crap is, is not someone else's
definition of crap, especially in a place like this.
Private feedback rules!
I'm not saying feedback has to be positive, certainly not. It's about
respect. We can always do whatever it is we think we have to do by
giving feedback privately.
We don't need to be like many other places on the net, right? We don't
want to go into battle! <thinking twice about this> <still thinking
about it> ... uh ... <mentally slaps herself out of the battlefield>
... <slaps herself again> ... Nah!
> I think that we should do it under our
> own names so that the person can take
> our abilities and reputation
I think we should leave reputation and ability out of the equation,
completely. Who's allowed to give criticism? Do we need to supply a
degree, diploma, credits? I don't think that's the way to go.
The best feedback is the feedback you get from just about anyone ...
and we've all been to school, we don't need teachers ...
These things are finished, yes but they don't have to be perfect. If
they'd be perfect, we'd not put them here and we'd certainly not write
about Mulder and Scully ;) <fit of laughter> ... uh ... uh ... Right?
Oooooh .... I think someone's about to kick my ass ;)
d.
--
http://www.crosswinds.net/~bluneon/
fanfic - the exit
http://www.crosswinds.net/~bluneon/editors.html
a small guide to text editors, word processors
pam
> Private feedback rules!
>
> I'm not saying feedback has to be positive, certainly not.
> It's about respect. We can always do whatever it is we
> think we have to do by giving feedback privately.
As a reader, I like seeing public feedback. If positive,
it serves as a recommendation for other readers as well as
feedback for the author. If it's negative, it gives other
readers who *liked* the story the opportunity to disagree
and provide positive feedback in response. If it's a flame,
it gives others the chance to come to the author's defense.
I'm not an author, but when I post non-fiction articles
(which can take a great deal of time & care in preparing)
that elicit negative responses, I'd rather receive those
on the newsgroup where everyone can see & reply to them as
part of a public discussion than receive them in email, where
they feel like a personal attack and where no one else can
see them & where I can never share them with anyone else for
moral support because that would violate Usenet etiquette.
I myself give all of my feedback (which is always positive
-- I don't have time to respond to all the stories I like,
let alone respond to stories I *dislike*!) in public.
Why would I want to be one of "The Lurkers [Who] Support
Me In E-Mail" (to paraphrase the classic filk) when
I can be a poster who supports people in public? ;-)
Plus, if I keep my comments public, I don't have to worry
about accidentally posting something that was only meant to
be emailed (since I post everything anyway), or of my private
emails being made public (since they're all public posts anyway),
or of being accused of saying something in private email that
I did not (since I only say things in public newsgroup posts).
Brandon Ray
Deirdre wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Aug 2000, Brandon Ray wrote:
>
> > Or just maybe the person making the criticism is wrong. IMHO,
> > sending an "feedback" email that says, "You need a beta reader" is
> > rude. I don't even really subscribe to the "constructive criticism"
> > theory of feedback. When a story is posted, it's a finished work,
> > and it ought to be read as such. Beta reading is something that
> > happens *before* the story is posted, and it is done by invitation
> > from the author.
>
> And why can't we still say critical things about a finished work?
> Maybe the author won't revise this story to fix problems, but it'll
> carry over into their next story. It's almost mind-control that
> you're advocating here. Does it go from we're not allowed to say
> anything bad to we're not allowed to think anything bad, just because
> it's a "finished work?" I can't describe how wrong and oppressive you
> sound to me. I agree that some places like that which remains unnamed
> is not the best way to go about it, but as a writer and an editor,
> only allowing that positive feedback is valid and should be sent
> reminds me of the feel-good schools of the 80s/early 90s that produced
> intelligent, straight-A grammar school kids that could barely read or
> spell when I encountered them in high school. A generation of
> almost-illiterates, because criticism was not allowed and only
> positive reinforcement was given.
Okay, please go back and read what I wrote. Nowhere did I say that
people should not be allowed to send (or publicly post) negative
feedback. I never said that, and I never will. But given the culture of
this community, I do think it's rude, and I have a right to say that;
accusing me of "mind control" is over the top, and misses the point
entirely.
>
> There's so much crap posted, Brandon, that saying that we're not
> allowed to give criticism - to call crap "crap" - is just plain wrong.
> I think that we should do it under our own names so that the person
> can take our abilities and reputation (or maybe in my case, under one
> of my established author alters so that people don't associate my crit
> with Goss ;) into consideration but saying that criticism is wrong
> isn't just counter to what I've seen this community to be about for
> the past six years, but counter to good sense. We're not a tea club
> of old ladies with smiles on our faces and bile hidden in our hearts
> (well, I hope.)
>
> You're taking this to a dangerous and IMO illogical extreme.
And you're attackinga straw man, Deirdre -- I never said any of those
things.
>
>
> Deirdre
pam
> Red Valerian <hg...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
> > Actually, I can't share very many more negative comments, as most
> > people have been kind to me on the site. I had this objection to the
> > Skinner/Scully combo once, but that was about it:
> >
> > "This might just be me, but I only tolerate smut when it's MSR or the
> > like. This NC17 stuff just hits me on a flat note in here. SUMMARY:
> > It wasn't good for me."
>
> Mulder/Sc. That is repeated in the classification. Why did she expect
> MSR? Was she saying no non-MSR should be written? She will only read
> MSR? Then why did she read the story? The entire thing gave my brain
> more of workout than it's had in ages.
In XF or any other fandom, if I saw "Frohike, Skinner, Mulder/Sc,"
the "/" in "Mulder/Sc" would seem to indicate that sex occurs
between "Mulder" and "Sc"ully. If the Mulder and Scully were
platonic or USTy, I'd expect "Frohike, Skinner, Mulder, Scully"
or "Frohike, Skinner, Mulder&Scully." Likewise, if there were
sex between Skinner and Scully and not between Mulder and Scully,
I'd expect "Frohike, Mulder, Skinner/Sc."
I've always understood that "/" denotes a sexual relationship.
What was it supposed to mean in this case?
(Note that I wouldn't necessarily expect *romance* between Mulder
and Scully -- just sex. But I wouldn't expect sex between Frohike
and any other regular characters or between Skinner and any other
regular characters.)
Brandon Ray
swikstr wrote:
>
>
> And I guess I would say that criticism (the kind that isn't effusive
> praise) isn't necessarily "bad." It may or may not make the author(s) feel
> all that great, but this is a place for the posting and discussion of
> fanfic. Sally and Rivka posted "TO" here and the story sufficiently moved,
> disturbed and inspired people to the point where they felt they had to
> discuss its content. How you choose to view that kind of discussion is
> another matter, but I actually think this ng conducted itself pretty
> admirably in that particular case. I've seen other story threads
> degenerate quickly into ad hominem attacks against the author or the genre,
> but I don't recall the "TO" debate quite that way. Nor the debate over
> "The Professional."
I think the difference may lie in how the authors respond to the discussion. If
they don't participate, either directly or via surrogates, or if they *do*
participate but do so without being defensive, then the discussion can be
fascinating and useful for all concerned. But if the authors take public umbrage
at what's said, that's when it can all go to hell.
And I'm speaking as one who has had this happen to me, and I am *not* necessarily
criticizing anyone who does or did get defensive at being publicly criticized.
That's something that's very tough to take. But I do think that the author's
reaction to the discussion makes a huge difference in how the discussion develops.
>
> You know, this reminds me of a discussion that came up at ATXA about
> "TFWID" the other day, where I remarked that any episode that manages to
> sustain such long-term comprehensive interest, positive and negative,
> cannot be properly termed a "failure." The same would apply to fanfic.
>
> Looking at it that way, a story that provokes the kind of discussion that
> "TO" did is anything but a failure.
I'm gonna have to disagree with this. Just because something stirs up controversy,
that does not necessarily mean that the original work being discussed was a
success. It just means that people have strong feelings about the subject matter.
The story, itself, could still be a complete and utter failure.
Teddi Litman
Jennifer Scott wrote:
> Does everyone remember back when Tikkun Olam was first posted here? An
> enormous debate/ discussion erupted over its merits and its faults.
>
> Now, because so much of that criticism was stuff in the vein of "I hated it"
> and "It made me feel violated to even have read it", the discussion devolved
> into, as I recall it, an enormous flame war.
<shrug> I recall differently. I recall a fascinating discussion on a story that I
think happens to be one that's not always easy to like. I loved the story and
defended it ardently at the time. I don't recall having negative feelings towards
those who disliked it. I don't recall the discussion ever getting personal between
anyone discussing it. I certainly don't recall anyone flaming anyone else. To this
day, it remains one of my favorite fanfics.
>
>
> Conversely, if you scrolled through, past the malicious messages, the story's
> defenders wound up posting what is probably the most intelligent and
> well-thought out analyses that I've ever seen, especially in XF fandom.
>
> Now, if I had been Mustang Sally or Rivka T, I probably would have been
> offended/hurt/angry/upset/fillinblank over the callous way my baby was being
> treated. But on the other hand, when I got to the parts that made me realize
> people had read, paid attntion to, and respected at least parts of my story...
> I can't really imagine a better gratification.
I could be wrong; but I would think the authors would have appreciated the
discussion. It was one of the rare cases where we actually discussed a piece of
fanfic in a similar way we discuss a piece of literature: where we were arguing on
the interpretation of the work. I wish we would do more of that here; because I
for one really enjoyed the discussion. Unfortunately, that sort of thing only
tends to happen with the more controversial fanfics. I love the idea of public
discussion for fics ... not to tear someone's "baby" apart as people tend to fear
will happen; but because sometimes I read fanfic that I think is thought provoking
and *worthy* of public discussion because it is complex enough to inspire many
different reactions and interpretations. Sometimes I read something and I find
myself wishing wish I could discuss this story with someone else.
>
>
> My point is: you take the good with the bad. If you choose to focus on the
> negative, you won't learn nearly as much about your story or your style, and
> you'll probably miss the tacit praise.
>
Often, if a reader has taken the time to be critical and the risk that it will be
poorly received, it's because he or she actually sees potential there ...
something that's worth improving.
Teddi
pam
> pam wrote:
> >I've always understood that "/" denotes a sexual relationship.
> >What was it supposed to mean in this case?
>
> Three male characters (Skinner, Frohike and Mulder) are having either
> sexual or romantic fantasies about Scully, and she is having a sexual
> fantasy about one of them - but we don't know which one.
>
> Hence for category I put:
>
> Category - Multiple choice Erotica M/S, Sk/S, S/F, you get the idea
Whooops. No wonder I couldn't find which story it was by looking
through the headers of all the stories of yours that I could find
at that site! I just figured I had missed it and that the nameless
story bugs found with the exact words "Frohike, Skinner, Mulder/Sc"
in the summary was elsewhere on the site.
Now that I see what the headers *actually* say -- including the
one-sentence summary of the story in the Search Results pages
("What are Skinner, Mulder and Frohike thinking of doing to
Saint Scully?") -- it's obvious that even before they get past
the Adult Verification Javascript popup that allows them to
see the headers at all, anyone encountering this story receives
*ample* warnings that it is *not* a pure straightforward MSR
devoid of sexual feelings on the part of any other characters.
Why anyone who can "only tolerate smut when it's MSR" would
continue beyond the Search Results blurb *and* the Category
*and* the Summary and then *complain* about finding a story
that mentions "Sk/S" and "S/F" is beyond me ...! ;-D
> Summary - It's 11:21 on a Saturday Night (duh) and we are
> offered a look at the private thoughts of Skinner, Mulder
> and Frohike while each imagines what he'd like to be doing
> with the blessed one. Meanwhile, who's peopling Scully's
> fantasy landscape? Ah....that would be telling.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> In fact, as I should have explained earlier, the story ends
> up as MSR, so the reader's comment that s/he "could only
> tolerate smut when it was MSR" was rather odd. I assume
> s/he quit before reaching the ending.
Why would s/he even bother to venture past the Adult
Verification popup to open up the story, *knowing* that
it was an answer to the question "What are Skinner,
Mulder and Frohike thinking of doing to Saint Scully?"
Let alone ignore all the headers? <baffled>
> Anyway, hope that clears things up.
I shoulda made sure bugs' words were an exact quote of
your summary before I jumped in! Sorry.
Red Valerian
wrote:
>
>I've always understood that "/" denotes a sexual relationship.
>What was it supposed to mean in this case?
>
>and Scully -- just sex. But I wouldn't expect sex between Frohike
>and any other regular characters or between Skinner and any other
>regular characters.)
The story takes place over one minute in time - 11:21 Saturday Night.
Three male characters (Skinner, Frohike and Mulder) are having either
sexual or romantic fantasies about Scully, and she is having a sexual
fantasy about one of them - but we don't know which one.
Hence for category I put:
Category - Multiple choice Erotica M/S, Sk/S, S/F, you get the idea
Keywords - All the lonely people, where do they all come from? And
what do they do when they're by themselves?
Summary - It's 11:21 on a Saturday Night (duh) and we are offered a
look at the private thoughts of Skinner, Mulder and Frohike while each
imagines what he'd like to be doing with the blessed one. Meanwhile,
who's peopling Scully's fantasy landscape? Ah....that would be
telling.
~~~~~~~~~~~
In fact, as I should have explained earlier, the story ends up as
MSR, so the reader's comment that s/he "could only tolerate smut when
it was MSR" was rather odd. I assume s/he quit before reaching the
ending.
Anyway, hope that clears things up.
Red
H Lynn28
>
>I agree that some places like that which remains unnamed
>is not the best way to go about it, but as a writer and an editor,
>only allowing that positive feedback is valid and should be sent
>reminds me of the feel-good schools of the 80s/early 90s that produced
>intelligent, straight-A grammar school kids that could barely read or
>spell when I encountered them in high school. A generation of
>almost-illiterates, because criticism was not allowed and only
>positive reinforcement was given.
Chiming in a bit late, but FWIW...
I agree with you, Deirdre. I know most people will argue and say that you
shouldn't criticize, because of what it might do to the author's morale, etc.
Unfortunately, if said author wants to make a go of writing in the future,
pandering will not help them in the long run. An editor will not consider your
feelings if you have a serious problem with grammar, or lack a coherent
storytelling ability. It's true that not everyone who posts their stories at
ATXC and elsewhere are seeking to better their writing ability (using fanfic as
an exercise) or in hopes of constructive criticism...some are doing it as a
hobby, and don't want to hear about any problems with the story itself.
However, I feel that most people want to make sure they do a good job at
whatever they put time and energy into, and I think good constructive feedback
is essential to this.
In the art school I attended, criticism wasn't only a part of the routine--it
was a requirement. Imagine every test and paper you ever wrote in HS and
college tacked on the wall of that particular class, and having all your
classmates--and the teacher--pick apart the good and bad points while you sat
there and listened. (This was my experience for most of my entire college art
education, and a part of my last two years in HS art classes.)
You learned to develop a thick skin, discern good criticism from bad, and it
honed your skill and made you a better artist. I'm grateful for those who give
me great positive feedback, but I can't believe I'm mistake-free. Others may
choose to not receive constructive criticism, but I welcome it. It stings a bit
at first, but if the cause of that pain allows me to fix a writing error I
didn't recognize, the pain is well worth it. :)
H Lynn
(Who managed to squeak past the "feel-good" schooling and got a C minus in 7th
grade English.) ;)
bugs
felt very clearly stated that there it was not going to be an MSR. The
version I wrote still doesn't seem to account for Skinner and Frohike's
role in an MSR, but I guess some people are always hopeful. As Red's
copy shows, anyone who could read that and then complain that they felt
cheated or mislead...well, needs a header that will give her the
complete plot spelled out in a diagram form.
--bugs
In article <mpmjpsoiju0e1hq5d...@4ax.com>,
--
bugs
swikstr
> >Hold on. It sounds as though you're saying that the only "intelligent,
> >well thought-out analysis" was the kind that defended the story.
> Oh, nonononono. To my recollection, the people who didn't care for the story
> but still found things to praise about it offered up some of the most
> insightful points.
Right. That's what I suspected you meant, but thanks for clarifying ;)
I still don't recall that discussion as much of a flame war, but I expect
it's because I agreed with more than a few of the "issues" raised about
"TO." And I really *don't* remember any specific attacks made on Sally or
Rivka personally.
::shrug:: The discussion was intense, but there was no out-and-out bashing
like we've seen here from time to time (i.e. attacking slash as a genre).
Then again, it was a long time ago <g>.
swikstr
> swikstr wrote:
> > You know, this reminds me of a discussion that came up at ATXA about
> > "TFWID" the other day, where I remarked that any episode that manages to
> > sustain such long-term comprehensive interest, positive and negative,
> > cannot be properly termed a "failure." The same would apply to fanfic.
> > Looking at it that way, a story that provokes the kind of discussion that
> > "TO" did is anything but a failure.
> I'm gonna have to disagree with this. Just because something stirs up controversy,
> that does not necessarily mean that the original work being discussed was a
> success.
Stirring up controversy is one thing. Sustaining long-term negative *and*
positive interest and debate is something else. That's what I was
referring to as a potential definition of success.
And IMO, the term "success" has too broad a range of interpretations to pin
this down anyway.
-swik (ducking back into lurkdom...)
Brandon Ray
Jennifer Scott wrote:
>
>
> It wasn't the criticism I was referring to as bad; it was the public postings
> from people who rejected the story without evver having completed it.
I don't think it's necessary to finish a story -- especially a long one, like TO
-- before deciding that you don't like it.
Tesla
Simple me. I never realized Mustang Sally's/Rivka's opus had been attacked!
To me, their stories stand out like the Rockies amid foothills, in the
scope, the reality, the everything.
Now me, I don't get discussed on the newsgroup, I just get flamed at home by
trolls. I usually resist the thought of replying, since they seem to be all
about 16. My kill filter is getting full.
--
"Some days it just doesn't pay to chew through the restraints."--Anonymous
Brandon Ray
people who don't like Iolokus very much at all, just as there are quite a
number who *do* like it. And sometimes the discussions have gotten rather
involved. But I don't recall anyone being attacked.
Tesla wrote:
--
pam
> > Simple me. I never realized Mustang Sally's/Rivka's opus had been attacked!
> > To me, their stories stand out like the Rockies amid foothills, in the
> > scope, the reality, the everything.
>
> of people who don't like Iolokus very much at all, just as there are quite a
> number who *do* like it. And sometimes the discussions have gotten rather
> involved. But I don't recall anyone being attacked.
I don't think it's "Iolokus" that's being discussed here
-- I think people are referring to the debate inspired by
"Tikkun Olam." Which, IIRC, did seem to remain a debate
rather than an attack.
Tesla
format that didn't involve scrolling sideways for several minutes for every
line. Well, I finished it, but i couldn't read all of it.
"Debate" is what you call it here? Sheesh.
Brandon Ray
personally attacked, although there were strong opinions expressed about the
story. Of course, I didn't read the entire thread, either, so it's possible I
missed something.
Tesla wrote:
--
Teddi Litman
Brandon Ray wrote in message <39A3E396...@avalon.net>...
>"Debate" can at times get very energetic. I don't remember anyone being
>personally attacked, although there were strong opinions expressed about
the
>story. Of course, I didn't read the entire thread, either, so it's
possible I
>missed something.
>
I did read the whole thread, and I don't recall any flaming whatsoever. It
was a really cool discussion, and it bothers me that people want to
characterize it as something bad.
Teddi
Tesla
all I can do is repeat my response to Jennifer. She referred to "an enormous
flame war", which, since flame wars are rather negative to me, I
(mis)understood her to mean that the authors had been attacked.
As I said in my first post, I _hadn't_ realized they had been attacked, or
personally criticized.
But some of these "debates" on this group do tend to degenerate into
personal attacks on the author's morals or character. Again, nothing
directed at me on the group--I get them privately in my e-mail.