It has as much to do with the second XF as your statements about M&W's
work does. Don't try and pretend otherwise, as that was the basis for
this entire discussion.
>which is the only thing I was talking about when I responded
> to your note.
No, as anybody can see when looking back, your intial reply was about
Morgan and Wong and how you didn't trust them. Either you have a bad
memory or you're lying. Either way, what you're saying above is
As far my points on Carter, they have just as much to do with Movie 2
as your comments on Morgan and Wong do on the other side.
>I'm not defending him and I'm not defending Seasons 7 & 8.
You have been defending him -- if you weren't, we wouldn't be arguing
about his viability for a second movie at all here (duh) -- and many
times have been avoiding the direct issue of seasons 8 & 9.
> I'm simply saying that those seasons wouldn't make me bar him from the
Yes. Many times you either ignore his involvement with those seasons
or, more recently, have been saying you actually like them. Inherently
you have been defending Carter and his record throughout this debate,
otherwise our only argument as far as creative teams would involve
Morgan and Wong. It's very simple, and I have no idea why you now wish
to pretend that you're not defending him and the material he was
responsible for when you clearly have been throughout our exchanges,
as anyone who has read your messages could see.
>I'd trust him with it before I'd trust M & W.
As you've said many times before. We disagree. That's why we've been
having this discussion. It is not complicated.
>I have nothing against them.
In the context of XF material, you have made it clear that you do, I'm
afraid. Just as I have something against Carter in regards to much of
his last couple years of material, so too do you with them on the
other side. That's been the basis of this debate of ours all along.
>I find them quite entertaining and if the show was still on
> the air, I'd welcome them back into the fold. But the next movie is another
> matter. It will probably be the XF's final shot at posterity. When it
> comes to that one last chance, I'd rather not trust M & W with it. I'd
> trust CC with it before I'd trust them.
How many times must you repeat yourself in one paragraph?
>That doesn't mean that either of
> them would fail or that either would succeed. I'm not rooting for him.
> That's simply my preference.
And my preference is Morgan and Wong. Within that context, you have
been defending Carter and his material -- as I said above and you
disengenuously tried to deny. Semantically, you're not going to win
this one. Nor logically. You obviously have been defending him.
>I just don't hate him, as you seem to. And,
> I'm sorry, but your vehemence on the subject seems more than a bit personal.
> I can't share it.
What are you talking about? I already explained that I don't hate him
personally, but dislike what he did with the show -- and,
conveniently, you again choose to ignore one of my explanations on a
subject only to then repeat your previous spiel again. Now you're just
being dishonest as to my statements here, which is pathetic.
I'm no more vehement than you are on the other side about Morgan and
Wong, where you want so far as to personalize your dislike for some of
their material by saying they "hurt" you. Nothing like being
hypocritical -- if my dislike for Carter is vehement and personal,
then so too is yours for Morgan and Wong. Your holier than thou act is
> I'd be more fearful if Frank and CC were in charge of the movie together,
> because I sensed a direct correlation between Frank's growing authority and
> the show's decline. But yes, I think he's still capable of doing good,
> because I saw good in the last seasons.
That's nice, but for the most part I did not. And that's why I don't
think he should do it, with or without yes-man by his side.
> > In my view he was given more than enough chances and blew them all the
> > last couple seasons. No more. Whether it's Morgan and Wong or someone
> > else, I just don't want anymore Carter -- much the same way you feel
> > about Morgan and Wong.
> Actually, it's not much the same way I feel about M & W, because there are
> people I'd want less than M & W, like David Amann. My guess is there's no
> one you'd less rather have than CC.
I don't want him on the movie. There's no comparitive basis as far as
other people that I would dislike more in such a position -- it's an
issue that stands on it's own, as I dislike what he did to derail the
franchise and the show. It's thanks to him there may never even be
In the end I don't want him, no. That doesn't mean out of ANYBODY he'd
be my LAST choice, but I'm sure you'll believe otherwise, or try and
argue that at least, since you so often can't be bothered to even
honestly take into account what my opinions are here after I've
explained them -- instead, you just cut much of it away and repeat
what you want to. As you have most recently with the Carter issue and
my supposed -- but denied on more than one occasion by me -- "personal
hatred" for Carter. Just because I don't like his material on the XF
over the last few seasons does not mean I want him to suffer in his
personal life outside of anything XF related -- I just don't want him
to be in charge or significantly involved with the XF franchsie any
longer as I believe he's the source of a great deal if not most of the
> > I'm saying that by your standard for Morgan and Wong, Carter did alot
> > worse the last two seasons yet you refuse to judge him on his material
> I already did judge him on the last Seasons of the series. Each and every
> Sunday night I came on here and judged him.
Throughout this debate you've been very vague, sometimes outright
evasive, in regards to the last two seasons. I shouldn't have to go
back through your post history to get your opinons on those years, yet
your lack of discourse on the last two seasons has been consistent in
great measure up until recently in our back and forth discussion.
Maybe because you see it as more important to defend Carter than to
judge him -- or argue for him -- based on *those* seasons within this
context when talking to me. That's at least how it appears to me.
>I simply don't think the
> mistakes of the last season mean I'd rather have M & W write the next movie
> than him.
There are mistakes? I thought you said that outside Reyes and a couple
episodes you liked the last couple seasons. If that were the case, I'd
actually think you'd have more directly defended them, but in
actuality I think your true agenda is only to argue for Carter,
therefor ignoring to great degree what he did wrong -- which is shown
in great measure in regards to the last two seasons, which I think you
clearly know yourself.
> > in that area while you judge them fully on the material from their
> > last couple seasons which you dislike. It's not coherent.
> "It's not coherent," means that you don't agree.
No, it means that your outlook is incoherent in the way I originally
explained it was. I not only disagree with your comments, I also find
that they lack conheremce on the relationship issue considering
Carter's work his last two years -- work which you have been reticent
(unlike earlier seasons) to discuss.
>I prefer CC when he was
> good to M & W when they were good. I preferred CC when he was bad to M & W
> when they were bad. That's all. I prefer his style over theirs, if I had
> to do a tally. Of course, CC has an edge because I have more of his work to
> consider. He's more of a known quality to me. They are not as predictable.
> LGM is one of my favorite episodes of the entire series, but overall, I
> weigh in favor of CC. I'm more the PMP type than the Humbug type.
I like both Humbug and PMP alot, myself. I don't know why it would
have to be an either or issue inherently, but if I compare Home to
about anything from season 8 it's going to win handily (just as
something like Reqiuem, ironically, would). I didn't find that M&W's
work deteriorated as I feel Carter's so badly did.
> > I know you said they did good work the first two
> > years, but you don't consider that as part of their record in your
> > argument, just as you refuse to consider Carter's disgusting material
> > from the last two years when looking at him. I have a problem with
> > that.
> I do consider it, but CC's good work outweighs theirs in my mind.
I feel that you don't consider it when you argue that they can't be
trusted with the MSR. If they can't be trusted then neither can Carter
in my view, based on what he did the last couple years. It seems that
with Carter you look at what he did right with the relationship but
not what he did wrong, while with M&W you do just the opposite from
your own prism of what's right or wrong for the relationship.
> > That's nice. Most of the fanbase disliked it -- and I'm sorry, but
> > that matters to any viability here as far as movies.
> Well then maybe whoever is doing the movie will consider the fact that you
> hated Doggett and act accordingly.
I would hope so, yes. Though if Carter is in charge the chances of a
character like Doggett -- who is unneeded, greatly unknown and/or
unwanted -- appearing suddenly go up I believe. Another reason not to
>It doesn't make any difference to my
> viewpoint that you did.
Just as it made no difference to my viewpoint whether you liked The
Gift or Reyes or not, yet you were the one to bring that up in the
issue of what you liked or disliked specifically about season 9. I was
only replying in kind -- but if you have a problem with the above
subject matter, you never should have gone down that road yourself
seeing as we never would have conversed on these matters at all if you
had not first done so.
Nothing like hypocritically pointing something out -- you're very good
> > How somebody could accuse M&W of mistreating the MSR while defending
> > something like season 8's BS I have no idea.
> I'm not defending Season 8; I just don't despise it as you do. And the fact
> that you deemed it a horrible season doesn't mean that M & W didn't mistreat
> the MSR. You act as if one thing proves another. It doesn't.
All I have done is point out that if Morgan and Wong mistreated the
MSR then by the same token Carter surely did as well the last two
years. I'm only asking you to hold him to the same standard as you do
M&W, not to let them off the hook. As I've explained before, and you
have consistently ignored for convenience's sake.
> > But it wasn't only about Scully, but actually her relationship with
> > Mulder. You can dislike what it said, but it's entire point would
> > cease in terms of a flashback.
> It wasn't about Scully's relationship with Mulder. It just pretended to be.
It wasn't pretending to be anything, that's what it was about. Just
because you disliked what it said does not change this.
> In NA, Scully was reacting to Mulder as if he was Jack Willis or Daniel and
> she was the girl she had been in the past. The only way the show COULD work
> would be in flashback, because it wasn't dealing with present day
Scully's issues with Mulder was as another dominating male authority
figure, which is obviously true in many regards. He was the head agent
as well as having the story be first and foremost from the outset
crafted around his obsessions and his quest, not the other way around.
Never Again is about Scully examining where she fits into that,
becoming upset at the idea of being Mulder's tag along.
Mulder was obviously a dominating and controling figure in Scully's
life. She never would have entered into that world if not for him, nor
consistently been drawn further and further down that path if he
wasn't there beside her or, in many instances, leading her. Through
the series -- even up through All Things -- it's Scully that longs for
the normal life in many ways while Mulder lives through the files.
This was a periodic issue that was peppered throughout the series --
not just something that only Morgan and Wong used or brought up out of
nowhere. In the end, she questions it at times, becomes upset about
it, but will never truly leave -- that was always the point.
The theme of the episode fit perfectly into the present, and would not
have worked in flashback because it would have NOTHING to do with the
XF and her relationship with Mulder, as the entire show was about
>Unless, they wanted to tell us that Mulder was a shapeshifter
> and THAT's why she was reacting to him like he was one of the father figures
> she had known before. From Darkness Falls on we've seen Scully confront
> Mulder about the way he makes decisions for both of them, without telling
> her, even when her life or death is at risk. She was scared then, but not
> too scared to tell him he was out of line.
She was questioning her place broadly as far as the work and Mulder,
not just getting upset over a very specific incident. As is clear from
the outset, Mulder really does nothing overtly out of line in the
episode, instead it was a build-up that was long in coming.
Also, it could work better if you consider it as part of the post-LB
cancer arc. Which is easy to do.
>Vulnerable enough to panic and
> demand that he get the mites off of her, as she flailed and hit the light
> bulb, but even in fear, not hesitant to call him on it when he unilaterally
> takes power and decisions away. That early on, the dynamic was established.
> NA took Scully backwards to a place she may have been in her past, but not
> to a place she'd been with Mulder, with regard to repressing her objections
> to his "authority." She didn't repress. She ceded power to him, but always
> knew how to take it back and let him know when he'd stepped to far.
Never Again makes it clear that there are broad questions in regards
to the relationship, not just small ones or ones that are specifically
in the moment. It's about Scully therefor questioning her place. Your
counter examples are simply irrelevent because they were of the
moment, not about the broad dynamics of the relationship -- who was
controlling it, and who was following because of the other's goals
and/or obsessions. The longer the series was on the more moot it
became because of how much more equal the quest would become, but at
that point this was not quite the case -- which is the point therein.
>And, Mulder was always very quick to release the reins when she DID
stand up to
> him. The FTF kiss and the Per Magnum scenes were always very symbolic to
> me, because of the quick way Mulder takes his hands away both times.
Again, the above examples are situational and of the moment, which NA
was not about. It was a broad look at the relationship.
> the way he was throughout the relationship. The minute he sensed an
> objection from her, he backed off. Retreated. She didn't need to rebel
> against him -- against her feelings and fears yes, but not against Mulder.
It was all inherently about Mulder, so that carried over into her
reactions to him. Not difficult to figure.
> > So, it's not okay for Scully to get pissed and do something a bit out
> > of character in NA, but it is okay for her to forget about Mulder and
> > shove his nameplate away while he's missing in season 8, even though
> > she was in a much more stable place with him at that point and even
> > was pregnant with his offspring? *That's* in-character? Okey dokey.
> Well, your use of perjorative terms doesn't make the description of events
What was pejorative about any of the comments I made in that
paragraph? Was she consistently shown as being concerned about the
search for Mulder? No, not at all really, with it being pushed to the
background overtly. Was she not pregnant with his kid (if the truth
somehow makes her look worse, that's not my fault)? Obviously she was.
Was I mistaken on the issue of Scully shoving Mulder's nameplate away?
No, not at all.
>She did not forget about Mulder.
No, she remembered him in the moments it was convenient to attack
their relationship -- whether that be through her or the show just
doing it in some other fashion -- including referencing NA, which you
say you hate, pathetically in regards to the desk issue which pointed
to far more of a degeneration of the character than NA ever did by
pretending as if that was still something that was very relevent, and
using it as a contrast to the "superior" partnership that Dogget and
Scully would henceforth be in. Now that, that was disgusting,
especially considering the context. And it's very obvious as to
Carter's agenda by one-sidedly bringing up a dead issue when one of
the parties isn't even present.
>Furthermore, there were plenty of
> things that I did not find "ok" about Season 8. It had 19 episodes and I'm
> not going to sit here and critique them all, because I did that back when
> they aired.
I don't recall asking you to go through every episode piece by piece
at all, so the above is rather pointless.
>Moreover, you're irrational, so the effort would be wasted.
Then isn't your whole argument here wasted, since it's been one with
me? Looks like you're the one who's irrational -- very incoherent in
your outlook -- considering your broad statement about me in contrast
to your actions in regards to engaging me at all. Funny.
> The mere fact that you leaped to the unfounded conclusion that I loved the
> end of the series just because Mulder ended up being the baby's father
> establishes your blindness, against anyone who doesn't share your apparent
> hatred for CC.
I further explained my thinking as to such a supposition, but you
convenintly ignored that explanation as far as Existence and sesaon 8
along with those about my feelings towards Carter specifically. So not
only are *you* irrational, you're also obviously and pathetically
>I never cared whether Mulder was the kid's dad or not.
So, since much of season 8 pertained to the question of paternity, I
guess you would have been fine if it was revealed that the baby was
really someone else's offspring? That wouldn't have bothered you at
Since that was such an inherent question, it was going to be answered
in some form or another in that season, but if it was revealed that
Mulder supported Scully even though Skinner was the father (just cuz I
need a name to fill-in) you would have no qualms? Okey dokey.
> mattered as much to me as whether or not he was Emily's father.
The question was never posed as far as Emily having a father. It was
not an issue like the paternity in season 8 was. Emily was about
medical rape inherently, while the William arc from the outset was not
only about how it was possible that Scully was pregnant (never
answered for shit) but even more as to *who* impregnated her. Are you
really telling me you'd be fine and dandy to find out Scully slept
with some other guy and had his kid instead of Mulder's? Wouldn't that
inherently harm and contradict what the relationship was up to that
> "the truth we both know" kiss was hysterical and in fact argued AGAINST
> people who claimed that that proved Mulder was the father, saying that it
> was subject to interpretation, as so many things on the show were.
The key difference as far as that scene as opposed to so many others
in the show's history is that it was a statement -- a confirmation
without contradiction or hint of other possibilities -- as opposed to
a question, as The X-Files was so often about. See, it was the answer
*to* the season's big question -- something rare for the show which
makes its point all the more striking and obvious. I don't know what
else can be read into the scene, as the statement was very clear and
without alternative (the only alternative, really, that I've seen is
to believe that there was no point being made at all there, which is
silly). And I especially find it funny that you would find it vague
considering the way you read so much into other moments in other
episodes all over the place. Very odd.
The way the scene plays -- Scully's comment to Mulder ("I named him
after your father") and his reply ("I don't know, Scully. He looks
suspiciously like AD Skinner") is not subtle at all. I can look at my
own family tree and see the evidence backed up, as baby's very often
are given the name of a close relative -- as Scully made clear was the
case -- and/or, as was also the case in Existence, their father's
middle name (all I have to do is look at my Uncle's first name in
contrast to my Grandfather's middle name for one example).
This was not a subtle or vague moment in the history of the show. Not
I find it interesting that you're back to reading so much into wording
and specific actions in scenes, yet can't figure out the point of the
ending to the season. By your own standard -- wording being key, as
well as context -- Existence's last scene is overtly obvious in the
point it's trying to get across. I find it very weird how you are so
incoherent in how you analyze particular episodes or even particular
moments as opposed to others within a specific episode.
> I had big problems with the last seasons, but they didn't leave me bitter to
> the point where I go ballistic at the mention of CC's name.
And who does? He doesn't make me "ballistic" but his actions make me
believe that it's for the best if someone else is in control of any
future XF projects. For whatever reason, you find it convenient to try
and portray me as someone who's "Losing it" in some way by being out
of control with my hatred for Carter as a human being, which I have
said over and over is untrue. Dishonesty's a bad habit when anybody
can see just what it is you're lying about. The above inference is
just another example of your problem in this area.
> As for the "Patience," the nameplate is especially unimportant when you
> consider the type of person that Mulder was.
It's not unimportant at all. It's a very specific point. Hilarious how
you can rtead so much into how Mulder refers to Scully or someone
leading her aound when she's pregnant, but can see no point at all in
the events of Patience.
It's attacks on Mulder and the MSR are obvious as can be. Once again,
you show how incoherent your thinking is when looking at one scene as
opposed to another.
>Did he place value on that sort
> of thing? Was he part of that world? Was he into status and career and
So I take it by that standard there's no point being made in Never
Again when Scully asks why she doesn't have a desk, right? Uh huh.
The nameplate issue was totally lacking in any type of subtlety --
again, in order to act as if it was something else you must pretend as
if there's nothing to it at all, as there's no alternate reading to be
had as far as substance. Telling? I'd say so.
Carter's point got through to me loud and clear -- i.e. Mulder's the
past, forget him, and he was also a bad partner. Seemed pretty
"dehumanizing" to me, but I guess there really was nothing of
importance to it. You'd be wise to learn that such scenes are not
filmed to be without point typically, and this clearly was a case
where the point was driven home conclusively. To the extent that there
is no alternative reading on substance to be had, only a pretence by
some that there's nothing really there at all. Which overtly
contradicts my aforementioned little rule to watch for.
>Not at all. I don't say that part of him didn't regret the
> place and respect he didn't have.
So Scully was really doing him a favor by shoving his nameplate away?
Yeah, that must have been it. Give me a break.
>I think talking with the cop in X-Cops, we
> get a glimpse of that wistful side of Mulder. Sometimes, it's not always fun
> or fair to be "Spooky." But it was his lot and it's the one he accepted and
> when given the chance to follow the traditional path and win kudos or to
> take the extreme path and be ridiculed, he always chose the extreme.
What does any of this have to do with Scully shoving his nameplate
away in Patience? Nothing that I can see. I guess having your
existence being thrown in a corner by even the most important person
in your life can be seen as nothing of signifigance when you're a
loser like Spooky Mulder? Wow, I can see why you'd defend Carter on
this since that's what you appear to think.
> always rejected the official. The official word, the official people, the
> official trappings. I think they specifically chose a symbol that would NOT
> represent Mulder to take off of his desk, so that the essence of the man
So, what you're saying is, is that there was no point at all? Yeah
right. If that were the case such a scene would not even exist in the
first place. Why would it?
>Notice, it's not the poster that was removed. It would have been
> more personal, more Mulder, even if Scully had removed pencils from the
> ceiling, especially after Chinga. I'm sure it would mean a lot to an Up and
> Comer like Tom Colton was when we saw him (he's probably an A.D. by now), to
> have someone remove his nameplate. That's not who Mulder was, not when we
> met him and not when he left us.
The question remains, why would they stick in that scene, particularly
considering some of the other exchanges and underlying theme within
that episode, if there was no point to it? That's a very big hole in
your argument, to the extent where the entire thing is either
nonexistent or close to it due to such damage.
It's also telling that you have to pull up -- or make up -- so much
information as far as the characters and so forth to get an alternate
reading other than the obvious, and that that alternate reading, in
the end, is only that the scene means nothing of signifigance which
isn't believable considering the broad dynamics of the episode and
where the show was as far as transition.
>There are things that matter a lot to me at
> work, but Mulder's sensibilities were not what mine are and that's not the
> kind of thing he cared about. Scully was the person more prone to think that
> you express your feelings through THINGS. If she had a nameplate and Mulder
> removed it, I can see her being hurt and Mulder shocked that she could think
> that everything (even the smallest thing) he felt for her could be embodied
> in a nameplate.
And WHO removes the nameplate? The woman who thinks in just those
terms! Geez, there goes your argument to even further extent -- in
fact, you just made my argument for me on this subject. Great job. I
applaud you on your logic as far as Scully on this one as it only
strengthens my point and tears up yours. Awesome.
> If Doggett hadn't been there, she have left the nameplate out, because
> that's where her heart was. However, she realized she was working with a guy
> who was doing his job and showing her respect and she came to feel it would
> be petty not to give him the professional courtesy he deserved, just because
> she missed Mulder. I think she just realized it was not Doggett's fault that
> he was gone. She remembered how she felt about not having a desk thanks to
> your beloved NA.
Oh, geez, so Patience references an old hurt from an episode you think
is awful in its points on the relationship, yet you think it has no
point whatsoever in regards to said relationship by doing so? Yet more
>Mulder didn't mean to disparage her role. What's more, if
> she'd really wanted a desk she could have ordered one from requisition like
> Doggett could. However, Mulder not thinking about it himself made her feel
> that he thought she was inferior and I think she just decided she wouldn't
> make Doggett feel that way.
Exactly what the episode wants us to know. Mulder was a bad partner,
but things were going to be healthier and better between Scully and
>He was ok out in the field. He might not deserve
> any perks, but he's entitled to the basics.
Yes, but that ain't something you're entitled to or likely to get when
you're partnered with Mulder. Which is the point.
>She's not Mulder, but she's not
> Dana Scully, the new special agent either. She remembers clearly how it felt
> to be the latter and she's beginning to see what it felt like to be the
> former, as the locals lash out at your crazy theories. She's somewhere in
> the middle, seeing why Mulder used to get frustrated like he did and seeing
> herself in Doggett, as he helped execute her exhumation instructions, even
> though he didn't believe in her theories. That's what she would have done
> for Mulder. She knew how Doggett must have felt because she knew how SHE has
> felt in the same situation. So, in saying he could have a desk and taking
> the nameplate away, (not because she'd put Mulder aside but because she
> didn't want Doggett to feel like he was outsider on the cases that he was
> working on just as hard as she was) she did something for him that she
> remembers she would have wanted done for her when she was where he was then.
Again, Scully was avoiding Mulder's thoughtlessness as a partner. The
contrast is clear, as well as the point. Evidently the clear
thoughtlessness as far as Mulder and his disappearance doesn't count
though -- cuz in that regard, Mulder comes off far better in his
pursuit of missing loved ones throughout the series than Scully does
in season 8.
> > But that could very well be the point. She goes out with another guy
> > because of her problems with Mulder -- if you take that out of the
> > episode you're left with something pretty vacuous in my view, and
> > something that does far less service for the characters present.
> It WAS pretty vacuous in my view. That's the problem.
We've gone over this. At no time have you pointed out how it's vacuous
in message, only how you thoroughly dislike the message and theme of
the episode. Evidently you believe that because you dislike it that
somehow makes it empty, but nothing you've provided as far as argument
has supported such a stance.
Just because you dislike the message doesn't mean it isn't there.
> > As I said, in my opinion it was a relationship episode at its base.
> And in my view it was a misshapen Scully episode masquerading as a
> relationship episode.
It wasn't masquerading as anything. It was a relationship episode.
Just because you dislike what it says about the relationship doesn't
mean that that wasn't what it was about. You seem to think that
because you dislike that makes it a non-relationship ep, even though
that's clearly what it is about.
> > wasn't pretty, but that's what you see examined within its confines.
> > And when you're doing a long-running, serialized show, not every
> > episode has to show the best side of the cahracters or their
> > relationship,
> There are plenty of episodes that don't show the best side of the character
> (Paper Heart) or their relationship (Bad Blood comes to mind), but they
> aren't insulting to me.
Whether NA insults you or not -- or hurts you -- doesn't mean that it
isn't a relationship episode. It's also amazing to see more hypocrisy
on your part, as you try and use other episodes in contrast to make
your point yet criticize me when I have done the same thing to try and
hold you to your own standard as far as the relationship.
> > So? I don't see why Scully can't be flawed, or a little screwed up.
> > Mulder was alot screwed up and nobody really had a problem with that.
> > I don't see why Scully always has to be the dominating presence or
> > "strong" either.
> I never said that Scully had to be strong. There are many episodes where
> she's not strong at all (BTS, Gender Bender, Milagro, Wetwired, etc.) that
> are not insulting to me.
Oh, yet more contrasts to make a point. What hypocrisy considering
your statements to me when I have done the same. Also, you only make
my point that Scully is flawed and as prone to weakness or bad
judgement as anybody with your other examples, whether you consider
those insulting or not is of litle relevence to my main point. So
again, you only help me through your own argument. Thank you.
> > And somebody could probably just as easily make the argument of Scully
> > being out of character in an episode like All Things. In quite a few
> > regards. At least as far as following who we knew her as up until that
> > episode. I can see how you could argue either side myself.
> I think the fact that All Things DID bring up someone from her past and
> contrast that relationship to hers with Mulder made it work better than NA
Your problem with NA is that it's out of character. By the same
standard, I repeat, All Things is just as out of character when
examined. That doesn't make either episode wrong in interpretation or
further illumination, but it does show how little your argument
against NA holds up to scrutiny on the issue.
>NA had her responding to relationships with father figures and then
> grafted her past problems in those relationships ONTO Mulder and that's why
> I didn't buy it.
NA was about dominating males in her life, which fits Mulder as far as
profile. It started out as her entering his world, and NA is about how
much further if at all she wants to go down that path. It's about her
living her life for his quest, even though it isn't really hers.
>Furthermore, All Things did not pretend to be about Mulder
> when it wasn't.
In what way does NA do this? I don't see that at all.
So? That doesn't make NA wrong or AT right, or vice versa. It's a
different angle, but on the issue of what's in character, neither
would or could hold up to the standard you try and place on NA -- i.e.
what we knew of Scully before either episode.
> So, Scully's unrest was not really about Mulder, yet "All Things" did
> address the MSR as a whole, while the only realistic MSR element in NA was
> Mulder himself.
I still don't think you've explained how this is the case.
NA could just as easily fit into your outline of the relationship
above. That's the funny thing.
> I really minded that Mulder's feelings were hurt in "All Things," and it was
> important to me that Scully not exacerbate his pain. He asks her to pick up
> that stuff from Colleen and it just got on my nerves that she couldn't say,
> yes, she would. Instead she has to say, "I'll see what I can do for you,"
> not making any promises. That just infuriated me, because she was being
> deliberately annoying. How much time would it take for her to stop by and
> pick up the stuff and to tell Mulder that she would, rather than leaving him
> blowing in the wind, for sport? So, yes I think she was being needlessly
> irksome there (as Mulder is, even when he's sleeping) and if she hadn't gone
> over there for Mulder, I would have wished worse things on her than a near
> auto collision.
Judging by how personally you take even small slights, it's not
difficult to figure why you think I hate Chris Carter as a person and
want him "punished". It appears that you're the one with the problem
of over-personalizing things to the point where you swing too far one
way or another much of the time. I guess you need to look in the
mirror before criticizing others in such matters, that is clear.
>However, the reason I cared so much was because I knew
> Mulder was calling her to make emotional contact, NOT because he was
> interested in the literature that much. They were at odds. He didn't know
> why and he was trying to feel her out and to get things back on track on a
> personal level. I needed her to meet him halfway. I needed it more because
> she wouldn't meet him even 1/10 of the way in NA.
NA is about them not being on the same page. What you appear to find
disturbing about that ep is that this goes unresolved -- but such is
the point of the entire thing.
>I knew he was making a
> personal overture to her, but I don't think Scully knew this. So, I don't
> really blame her for Mulder's hurt feelings.
Wait, I thought if she was any more callous you were going to want
something very terrible to happen to her. Now you really don't blame
her at all? Hm.
>For all she knew, Mulder just
> wanted some crop circle research and he could have sent an FBI courier over
> to pick it up instead of her. So, if she had let him down and not gotten the
> stuff from Colleen, I don't think she would have realized that she was
> hurting him on a personal level and that would not have been just her fault.
> They don't understand each other. They're scared to put their hearts on the
> line. So, she can't say, "I'm jealous of Diana, because she's a woman you
> were once involved with and I see her as a rival," and he can't say, "I want
> to go to England with you, because I want us to spend time away from the
> bureau together." They can't say (or even admit internally) what they really
> feel, so if they misunderstand each other, I don't think either the person
> who misunderstood or the person who was misunderstood is completely at
> In NA, Mulder's words go unfinished.
Yeah, again, your problem seems to be more with the lack of resolution
to any of it than anything else. As even you have made clear that the
theme of that episode is not something unique to the relationship.
>In One Son, Mulder and Scully reunite,
> shooting at the train. I think they reunite emotionally too, but it's
> unspoken. In "All Things," it's verbal. She says what she would have missed
> if she'd spent her life with Daniel (Mulder being the top thing on the
> Potentially Missed List) and he lovingly covers her with a blanket. In the
> end, it's not about crop circles or the FBI at all. They interact on a
> personal, non-work level for a change and it's clear both to the audience
> AND to Mulder (which was not the case in NA) that whatever her problem was,
> it certainly was not with him. No, she didn't want to go to England to study
> crop circles, but she DID want to be with him, was relieved that he was home
> early unexpectedly, DID want to be in his apartment, making him tea and
> talking with him way into the night. He knew this and if they were at odds
> earlier in the show, the problem is resolved
Yes, resolution is the key word for you on this issue I think.
>in a more direct (as opposed to
> the indirect way we usually get where they both admit they want to work
> together, but don't acknowledge they just want to be together as friends, or
> more), complete and satisfying way than I've ever seen their friction dealt
> with in any other episode.
Well, you don't think Existence is direct, so I question your
statement simply when considering the comparison. Again, your
examination to such great extent of the meaning and ending of All
Things in contrast to how you can so clearly miss the point of
Existence is mystifying. Very contradictory.
> > Which also points to manipulation. Does that really seem like a strong
> > character that doesn't question her place? Looks like many of the same
> > insecurities were present to some extent in Milagro.
> Yes. Milagro and NA are riddled with similarities. That's why I said I
> thought Milagro was NA done right in the first place.
And yet it deals with so many of the same thematic elements, as you
admit. Your problem clearly is that NA is different in resolution of
things -- or more clearly, in its non-resolution.
> > I think my problem is that it progressed up to that point and really
> > could or would not go any further for such a long time because the
> > only place to go, really, was a physical relationship.
> But why go to a physical relationship? What would that have ADDED? I'm not
> saying that they should have refrained from an overt physical relationship,
> but what would it have added one way or the other? How would that have
> deepened the MSR?
Uh, I explained this again, and you AGAIN ignored and cut it out. It
was needed because of the pregnancy issue of season 8. As I said
before, that season is greatly wasted as far as the pregnancy arc and
the interactions between Mulder and Scully because it wanted to hold
off on the big revelation of Mulder being the father -- therefore, as
far as the serilialized plotting of the season, the entire thing was
pretty close to vacuous. Nothing is really done with the pregnancy,
other than it being revealed that Mulder is the father and Scully
having the kid -- a big waste.
Also, as I said earlier, if you're going to set up a romantic thread
on a show it's expected that at some point it be resolved through a
physical relationship. Why shouldn't it be? That's the question I
would ask. At some point it just becomes dumb, and a tease for the
sake of status quo and the gimmick -- basically cowardice on the
issue, even while exploiting it. Obviously if the two are attracted to
and love each other there's no realistic reason for it to never
happen, as you seem to think would have been fine -- once the romantic
issue, or intentions, were overtly played out in FTF it became
inevitable and only logical that at some point this issue would need
to be resolved lest it become an illogical joke.
How many times do I have to repeat the above before you'll acknowledge
that I've already answered you fully?
Now, you had *no* reason to repeat your little question above as I
have explained myself multiple times on this issue. Just because you
dislike my answer doesn't mean it isn't there. You're just being
overtly dishonest, which frankly I've had about enough of. Maybe this
time you can quote a portion of my explanations, while still
misrepresnting them by cutting out the rest? Sounds about right.
> > And like I said, I don't think I'd so much have a problem with this if
> > it was wrapped up and concluded by the end of season 7. I'm sure you
> > disagree -- seeing as how you like season 8 -- but what makes season 8
> Season 8 was not my favorite season of the show, but it did not make me want
> to crucify anyone.
And who did I say I wanted to crucify? In fact, when you accused me of
much the same thing in an earlier post, I denied it -- only to have
you ignore my denials and reiterate your same dishonest accusals of me
having it in for Carter. And again, an example above of you cutting up
a paragraph of mine only to have you act as if you're still loking for
the explanation I gave you within it -- as the rest of *that* further
explained why I thought the need for a physical relationship being
confirmed at the end of season 7 instead of 8 was needed. But, of
course, you act as if I never did explain myself on the issue at all.
That's just sad.
> >I don't
> > understand that in relation to your previous argument of always
> > wanting a strong and healthy relationship between Mulder and Scully.
> I never said that I always wanted a strong and healthy relationship between
> Mulder and Scully. In fact, I said it's sometimes even better when we see
> them functioning through their dysfunction.
And yet that's exactly why you're against Morgan and Wong -- because
they made the relationship too dysfunctional in your view.
And again, you cut up my paragraph above. As I said, I fail to see how
seasons 8 & 9 are okay if you think Morgan and Wong went too far.
> The thing is, a lot of Season 8 is nebulous. You are left to read meaning
> into it (nothing new on TXF). Often, where you read a negative meaning into
> it, I don't.
Yes, as with Patience, where I see a clear theme you try and pretend
there's a disconnect or nothing at all as far as the nameplate issue.
>I wasn't with Scully every moment of every day. I don't know
> how she might have missed Mulder in private, so I assume she did and
> something like Per Magnum helps me to make that assumption. I can read what
> I want into the offscreen scenes.
So why don't you do that and fix all your problems with NA? My God, it
could be a great episode for you if you just followed this standard
>Now, we were talking about Agua Mala on
> here a few weeks ago. I saw Scully onscreen with my own two eyes not
> worrying about Mulder while she delivered a baby. That got on my nerves.
> When it comes to things I don't see, I'm like a camel who can live off of my
> MSR reserves.
Even as it's being attacked, evidently. I guess since you're a camel
at that point you see what you want to see, kind of like a mirage,
following the whole desert theme.
>I don't need to be told that Scully is still missing Mulder,
> based on the strength of the relationship I SAW for 7 years, I won't believe
> that it has been destroyed or forgotten based on things I DON'T see.
I believe it's being attacked during season 8 based on what I *did*
see. Doesn't mean it destroyed it, but it was hurt (there's that word)
needlessly because of Carter's vendetta.
> don't need to view her missing Mulder, to know that she does.
Based on this, I guess none of us even needed a show after the first
couple years -- why not just "imagine it all". You're only
underscoring what a disaster season 8 is just in this regard, let
alone all the very direct ones. When it does deal with the MSR it
mostly is botched that season, with non-resolution being the theme of
the day -- along with a heavy dose of ignorance -- at least when
Mulder is back amongst the living, because while he's missing he's
being attacked all over the place, along with the precious
relationship you act as if you champion when arguing against Morgan
> approach, I just can't think the MSR was as ruined in the last seasons as
> you do. I'm not going to read bad things into the subtext, just because I'm
> disappointed by the script's omissions.
You certainly can read a great amount into episodes you like, but when
you don't want to see something that's screaming in your face I guess
you just turn on that wonderful imagination you're so proud of. Kind
of explains your debate tactics in this thread, actually.
>As I said before, something like
> Dreamland II bothers me, because I SAW them saying goodbye forever to each
> other in the headlights. In FTF I HEARD Scully tell Mulder she was thinking
> of accepting a job in Utah without saying goodbye to him (what?!)
Did you want something more "terrible than a car wreck" harm her
again? You may want to have these impulses checked out. I guess you
must have been very happy when the bee -- that had been hiding in her
collar for HOURS conveniently -- stung her. Bad Scully. Bad!
>When I see
> it happen onscreen, I mind.
Hm. I guess you must have had your eyes closed through a good portion
of season 8.
Also, the non-existent exploration of the relationship that was
previously so strong was a first for the show in its entire run. It
seems you made up new standards for yourself just so you could pretend
season 8 "wasn't that bad". Because, certainly, never had the
relationship been so bungled before that season, whether through
attacks or simply being ignored.
>When it doesn't happen on screen, I don't
> imagine the worst. Scully was stupid at the end of the series (like leaving
> the baby out in the living room to be kidnapped and molested by all and
> sundry), but I didn't see her not loving Mulder.
Some episodes the last couple seasons she seemed to care more about
> > Why? They're relationship is the same no matter what the type of movie
> > it is. It must be addressed, and I would assume it would be. It's not
> > like the relationship as it now is only exists in relation to William
> > or the Mytharc. It simply is what it is, no matter the type of movie
> > we get.
> I'd like it to address William though.
Whether William's addressed or not, does not change what the
relationship now is in the canon. As I said, the relationship and its
details are not dependent on William -- you act as if because it's
MOTW (which is unlikely, considering) the relationship will not be the
same as it was overtly heading into such a movie.
>One thing that made me think he
> would be revisited was the stagey behavior of the farm family. From
> everything we know on this show about people who conduct themselves in such
> a preternaturally wholesome fashion, they must be cult members of some form.
> I mean they were practically "Roadrunner" type of people. That just means
> that William will be endangered and his parents might have to rescue him in
> the movie, proving how stupid it was to send him away in the first place.
> What I'd rather learn is that Scully did not send him out to be adopted as
> it appears and that we have somehow been fooled.
Already this is too complicated for the confines of a movie,
considering not everybody is going to be an XF fanatic or maybe didn't
bother with the last few seasons. Carter really blew it.
> > And yet you cut out my points against season 8 in this regard, never
> > addressing them.
> What is your point about Season 8? That you hated it? Big deal.
What is your point when pointing out how much you dislike the work of
Morgan and Wong in their last couple seasons? That you hated their
material? Big deal.
And the reason I make points about season 8 -- specifically in the
above context -- is because you ASKED me questions that directly
pertained to that season and my feelings on it. Then you turn around,
again cut up my post, and act as if you have no idea why I'm referring
to season 8? You are one of the most dishonest people I have ever had
the displeasure to converse with on a message forum. And consider some
of the other posters that has included, that's truly saying something.
Your game is tiresome and frankly pathetic.
> something I care to address.
No, you don't appear to care to address many of my answers to your
questions. Yet you're just fine with repeating the same questions over
and over as if I never have answered, even though I clearly have on
many such issues. You are a liar. Tactless but true.
>I wasn't in love with Season 8 and 9 but that
> doesn't stop me from preferring to trust CC with a movie over M & W.
And you'll do anything to promote your preference for Carter over M&W,
including your dishonest, evasive and vague tactics in this thread on
Tahts' alaso clearly the reason why you bother to cut all but the most
recent pieces of the thread chain in regards to our debate up. Makes
it more difficult to see what was previously said. Somewhat clever,
but also dishonest considering your other debating methods.
> > If the last scene of Existence
> > didn't exist, would you still be fine with the MSR in season 8?
> The last scene in Existence did nothing for me either way. Since I never
> mentioned it before this post, I'm perplexed as to why you keep throwing it
> up in my face? Do you just assume that everyone who doesn't agree with you
> is an Existence-lover -- or a Nazi?
Uh, again, I further explained my position on this, but you cut that
explanation out -- because it was inconvenient for you. Here you go,
I'm just going to repost it, since I clearly ALREADY answered the
above question as to why I brought Existence up:
But, oddly, you seem okay with that. If the last scene of Existence
didn't exist, would you still be fine with the MSR in season 8? Like I
said, it appears to me that all that matters to you in this regard was
the destination instead of the bungled journey to that climax -- why
else would you be okay with the tattered mess of a relationship of
season 8 when you argue so strongly about it in regards to others
seasons? I'd appreciate it if you directly answered me on this instead
of cutting this out of your reply.
The above point, in case you missed it, is that the only way someone
could argue for season 8 on the strength of the relationships which
you're always acting as if is so damned important, is if they were far
more concerned with the destination than the journey. Otherwise,
considering the emptiness as far as that relationship in season 8, and
the serialzed plot around it, you get basically nothing. Yet you would
argue that Carter did fine by the relationship, even though you missed
his main point at the end of the season while providing little else as
far as substance the rest of the way? Well, whatever -- must have
really closed your eyes and imagined a hell of alot to be satisfied
that season, as well as ignoring whatever you didn't like.
> > It was an off-hand remark, and your only using the tactics you pretend
> > I'm trying to use by dragging such a meaningless quote out, while
> > ignoring so much else of what I've posted, with yet more vacuous and
> > childish replies in regards to it. It's telling that you choose to
> > focus on this instead of more substantive issues.
> It is substantive to me because it gives me insight into the "everyone
> agrees with me" way you think
I didn't even say everybody agrees with me in the original comment --
I said that *I* believed *many*, not all or even most, would disagree
with you on your implied stance that M&W were only quirky as opposed
to good and that Carter was superior. I stand by that. Now you're just
being hyperbolic -- basically more dishonesty on your part. A
consistent theme in your replies to me, along with the all the
incoherence in them. Lies lies lies. That's all you know.
>and helps me analyze the motives underlying
> your curious adamence on the CC subject.
Is it any more curious than yours on M&W? I've explained my stance,
you've just chosen to ignore a great deal of it.
>I ignored other portions of your
> post that weren't as important in explaining where you're coming from.
No, you're trying to manipulate my paragraphs so you can paste what
you want to as far as meaning onto them and ignore what you don't want
to deal with, even while acting as if you still want me to answer
questions that I've given you the same answers to multiple times only
to have those replies be ignored.
> > As far as I can tell -- judging by ratings and what happend to the
> > show -- more agree with me about seasons 8 & 9 and what Carter did
> > with them than you. The Doggett Files would still be on right now
> > otherwise.
> If people agreed with me, the show wouldn't be on, because I wanted it off
> and wished Gillian could have left earlier. If she had, I would have. The
> show retained interesting elements for me. For instance, I didn't think
> even Badlaa was all that horrible, no matter what it sounded like on paper
> ("butt Genie").
Now, if I were you, I'd just ask you what this "has to do with Movie
2". Hell, maybe I'll leave it at that.
> But for Gillian and DD's return appearances, I wouldn't have continued
> watching. But that really has nothing to do with the point at hand, which
> is Movie 2.
Oh, coherence on a subject for once, even you noticed it. Thing is,
sesaons 8 & 9 are a big part of what I'm judging Carter on -- just as
you admit that you judge Morgan and Wong on their later work. Somehow
you think that's relevent but that doing the same with Carter is not
-- damn, you're back to incoherence.
>This exchange didn't start as an analysis of Seasons 8 - 9 at
It started as an analysis of seasons 8 & 9 as fa ras bad material
(broadly, the majority of those seasons) just as it started as an
analysis of Morgan and Wong's later work on the show and how that
might translate to a movie. Maybe you should re-read the thread if you
still can't grasp this.
>You believe that the person behind Seasons 8 - 9 should never be
> trusted again. If I only had Seasons 8 - 9 to judge him on, I might agree.
Wait, I thought they were fine seasons for the most part and that you
liked them. Now you agree that they're bad enough that if you judge
Carter on them solely he should be kept away? Yet again, you're
Just as you are by only judging Morgan and Wong on their later work
while you act as if this is wrong to do in regards to Carter. You
never can follow your own standard it appears -- you've actually got
*double*- standards all over the place.
> But I have much more. On balance, the body of work CC gave me and allowed
> others (including M & W) to give me prompted me to say I would trust him
> with Movie 2, before M & W.
You made it clear that you simply didn't trust Morgan and Wong period,
in your very first post on this subject, not just in comparison to
Carter. Just as I don't trust Carter period.
>It didn't make me say Seasons 8 - 9 were great,
> that Doggett was a God or anything along those lines.
Oh, so I guess you and Laura Cap may have disagreements as well. Pity.
> > Why should I believe that Carter will change back from his last two
> > years of bullshit any more than you believe Morgan and Wong will turn
> > around from the work they gave us over the last few years they worked
> > on the show? Also, Home's a great example of my point because it's one
> > of the final episodes they made, and it has none of the antagonism you
> > pretend was all through their work the last couple seasons.
> I don't pretend that antagonism threaded through ALL of their work. I just
> didn't like their work that much anymore and didn't like the direction that
> they wanted to take the MSR in. I don't NOT believe they'd be willing to
> revert to what they were in the first 1.5 years of the show. I just don't
> know if they will one way or another.
Just as you don't know what Carter would do on the movie. Yet even
though he msitreated the MSR and the show as a wole, you seem to trust
him with it.
>If they gave a press conference
> saying that they intend to, maybe I'd change my mind.
Oddly, Chris Carter need not give such a press conference. I guess he
always was great with the relationship.
> uncertainties, I'd trust them over Carter.
Huh, so would I. Something tells me you mis-worded that.
>You'd like to make it seem like
> I have some kind of vendetta against M & W to place my opinion on the same
> personal level as your animosity for CC,
No, you're the one with the agenda as far as pretending I hate Chris
Carter on a personal level. Even though I've explained otherwise --
beacuse you like to see and believe what you want to, and thus are
Just because I say that you view Morgan and Wong much the way I do
Carter does not mean that I think you automatically have great
animostity for them or wish something bad would happen to them, as you
have acted is the case out of nowhere as far as my dislike for Carter
on the XF -- you made something up in your head, and have decided to
stick with it no matter what I say. That's the truth. In the end I
don't have anything personal against Chris Carter, I just don't want
him to make another movie based off his past record -- just the same
way you have made clear you feel about Morgan and Wong. Go ahead and
stick to your own story if you must, but that's how I truly feel on
>but I just can't feel that strongly
> against them, as you would like me to do, to prove your point.
You've already proven my point through your own arguments. You've been
arguing against the two based on their past work over their final
years, just as I have with Carter. No difference. Even though you want
to pretend there is, so you can act as if your opinion is more valid
in preferring Carter. In the end, you're just a liar.
> Home has no antagonism, but Mulder was removed from Scully in the bench
> scene and I didn't like it, just as I loved (as humor), but was made uneasy
> by, his attitude in WOTC.
Again, you over-read that scene yet miss so much in others. Amazing. I
found that scene pleasant, and I did not think Mulder was "removed"
from Scully at all. Was he supposed to be really into discussing what
color she would want the baby's room to be or something? Geez.
>In Home when Mulder suggested Scully only had to
> find a guy who did not mind being second-guessed, I think there was a little
> voice in her head telling her that at this point in time, there was no other
> guy she could find who would embody those things she'd come to look for most
> in a partner.
Wow, you paste what you want to on *this* scene, yet can't figure out
the point of the ending to Existence? Talk about seeing whatever you
want to, for whatever reason.
>She had that look in her eye, but he didn't and their bond
> seemed less deep than I would have liked because of that.
Yeah, I thought she had that "take me now!" look in that scene too.
Wonder how Mulder missed it?
>But it's a fun
> show. I mean just his reaction to her Bah-Ram-U attempts at herding was
> great enough to recommend the episode, but the incest, legless, armless
> mother under the bed and in the car trunk type of humor is not something I
> want to see in Movie 2, when I could have something closer to FTF in its
That episode kicks ass. Ironically it's probably too extreme to be
used in a movie.
> > And you've been doing much the same thing on the other side, so don't
> > pretend as if you have no idea what the point is.
> I never knocked M & W, much less knocked them to try to make Carter look
And as I said to you, but you cut out because you're so dishonest, I
was only holding you to your own standard for M&W by bringing up some
episodes that Carter oversaw where Mulder and Scully weren't on the
best of terms. Telling that when I use your standard you twist it to
mean that I'm hating on Carter -- that would inherently mean you were
doing the same with M&W, if you actually stopped to consider things.
Again, you only help to maake my point through your own words. Thanks
>So, no I don't know what your point is
Duh, I told you what my point was. You cut that out and ignored it.
You have a real problem with honesty, or lack thereof.
>in telling me how awful he
> is, it's not going to make me want them to write the next movie instead.
I never said he was awful in those paragraphs you're now taking
exception to, I said that there were examples of his "mistreatment" of
the relationship by *your* own standard on the subject. But of course,
you ignore that and act as if I was screaming for Carter's head, when
all I did was look at a couple of episodes where Mulder and Scully
were a bit hostile at points that had nothing to do with the dreaded
> > You also have no problem with seasons 8 & 9 evidently, which is
> > telling as to your position. Though I still can't find coherence in
> > attacking others on the relationship while letting Carter off the
> > hook.
> I didn't attack them. I said that if I had to choose, I'd want him instead
> of them. The fact that you consider an opinion that diverges from your own
> an "attack" is significant.
As significant as the way you use words like "crucify" and "punish" in
relation to my arguments against Carter which don't go along with your
views? Again, you're shown as a hypocrite. Nice work.
>I'm not the one raging about what they
> destroyed and how they should never be trusted with anything again, blah
> blah blah.
You started out with that message from the begining, specifically
mentioneing how YOU did NOT trust them with the MSR. That's how this
started. More dishonesty. It just never ends with you.
>I can't hate them like you do CC.
You remember when I said I did not hate him but would prefer someone
else make the next movie? Yeah, along the same line as your statements
as far as Morgan and Wong. Just because you ignore my replies does not
> > One minute you admit Carter was pissed and had a vendetta gainst DD,
> > yet you refuse to see how this carried over into the material?
> I didn't say it didn't carry over into the material. I could tell that
> before Season 8 started, by seeing Mulder in the torture chair in the
> television commercials.
Oh, so you can see it in some cliched torture scenes, but not in the
obvious thematic attacks on the character throughout early season 8?
If torture scenes was all there was, I would not have a problem with
season 8 in this regard -- though there would still be many others
that I would find problematic.
>However, the fact that CC was mad at DD didn't make
> me think that Scully forgot about Mulder. I was able to separate what went
> on onscreen from what went on offscreen and evaluated the 2 separately.
So, you made up a nice little fantasy world so you could pretend that
season 8 was decent. That's what I see when consider your meaning.
> nameplate had a different meaning for me.
Yeah, evidently a non-meaning. How about the love triangle? That was
pretty damned inspired, no? I felt so bad for Doggett when Mulder
started breathing. Actually, I'm lying about that. You must be rubbing
off on me.
> > As for William, that was the biggest storyline for either of the last
> > two seasons, and even you admit it was botched.
> I don't have to "admit" it was botched. I don't have a personal stake in
> Season 8 and never lauded the baby plot or the season.
You stated that you were "hurt" by its resolution, which seems to be
synonomous for you with bad or "botched". Maybe I misread your
I think it was horrible because nothing was done with it of
>I just wasn't as
> destroyed by it as you were.
Who said I was destyoyed? Other than you?
> > Also, Scully and Mulder are two of the worst parents in existence. I'm
> > sure you think of that as a hurtful comment, but their actions only
> > back it up.
> I didn't see Mulder being a parent at all
Um, since he was the baby's father he was inherently a parent quite
obviously, even if he was a deadbeat.
>and suppose there could be a valid
> reason for him being away as he was in Season 9.
But as is typical of the reatarded writing of that period, no decent
or coherent explanation is ever given.
>As far as Scully being a
> bad parent goes, I said the same thing myself many times.
Yes, both she and Mulder were bad parents. We'd be agreed here if you
only realized that the fact that Mulder was the father made him a
>I didn't know why
> she didn't spare her poor mother a beating and just leave William on the
> doorstep so anyone who wanted him could take him, since she wasn't
> protecting him at all herself.
Because she was a moron. Like the writers during that season.
>And I remember thinking that if I were
> William, I'd be doing a heck of a lot more than just mentally moving my
> mobile. His mom totally ignores him when he cried.
Yes, his father takes off after he's a been home a day or two, and
mommy doesn't notice his existence until something terrible happens,
only to then give him up for adoption after she previously acted
desperate to have him -- or at least the idea of him. What a great
story. (note sarcasm)
> But um, what's your point. That Season 8 was bad. You hate it. You made a
> Season 8 voo doo doll and still stick pins in it? Good for you.
What is your point when you criticize Morgan and Wong's work later on?
Also, you brought up William, and I responded. Therefor, the question
lays with you as to what the point of bringing that up was. Oh, that's
right, you were "hurt" again -- I guess that's highly relevent as far
as Movie 2. Uh huh.
Further, I discussed the William issue after you brought it up because
it's a great example of Chris Carter -- the man you would prefer for a
second movie -- screwing up a storyline that you evidently think is
important to explore, possibly because of the way it was treated on
the show. I find it ironic that you would want the guy that caused the
mess in this regard to come back and "fix" it even though much of his
solution of fixing it broadly was to get rid of the kid he previously
acted as if was so important because he had no use for him as a
gimmick any longer -- in other words, one could easily argue that in
Carter's mind the issue is settled and he *did* fix or deal woth it
properly already. Show's how screwed up everything was the last couple
> entire XF had been like Season 8, it wouldn't have lasted until Season 8.
> If the entire XF had been like Season 8, we wouldn't be contemplating a
> second movie.
So I guess you actually admit there were BIG problems? That's all I've
ever said, and I don't trust the man behind those problems. Just as
you don't trust Morgan and Wong.
>But the entire XF was not like Season 8,
And the entirety of Morgan and Wong's work was not made up of season
>so if there's a
> second movie, I'd trust CC with it before I'd trust M & W -- which is not to
> say I hate them.
You mean the way I don't hate Chris Carter, right?
>I don't have voo doo dolls myself.
Who does? An irrational implication/accusation.
>And I don't think them
> talentless either.
So? You want a prize?
>They are extremely talented, but in a quirky way that
> tends to put me off almost as much as it draws me in.
Yes, I know, you're easily hurt. Maybe you should just be more careful
as far as what you watch.
> > Well, it looks like I truly hit one of your hot buttons with that
> > example of a good episode, huh?
> No. I had nothing to say about NA at all when you first brought it up, but
> then you kept insisting I address it, so I did.
I insisted beacuse you kept on insisting that Mirgan and Wing were
only interested in surface "moments" and that you needed more than
that. NA has moer, but you dislike what it has more of.
>I only wish it had been
> more than good episode. I wish it had been a good XF episode.
> > What does what Morgan and Wong did in season 4 have to do with Movie
> > 2? Your throwing away your own argument that started this entire
> > debate. Nice job!
> No you started the entire debate because you can't bear to have someone
> disagree with you.
You started it by disagreeing with me in the first place. You quoted
my post, and then I did the same thing back to you -- thing is that
technically you started it by disagreeing with me.
You brought up your dislike for their work through later seasons.
Evidently that's off limits according to you as far as Carter.
>M & W are not my favorite XF writers. They were ok (and
> in places superlative) in the first season and ok in part of the second
> season, but overall their view of the MSR does not jive with my own.
How does your viwe of Morgan and Wong's woprk relate to the movie any
more than my perspective on Carter's? You still have not answered
this, but it's obvious that you're a hypocrite on this issue since you
did the same thing to start this debate with me you actually had the
nerve to question me on (i.e. looking at someobody's past work to
judge them as far as Movie 2).
>You don't like
> to hear that and I'm sorry that he disappointed you so much, but I just
> can't feel the venom. I don't ban him for life, the way you do. But then
> again, I wouldn't ban M & W for life either. Michele
I'd ban him from a second movie, just as you have stated you'd do in
relation to a second movie as far as Morgan And Wong. No more venom
from mr than there is from you -- I don't have to like Carter any
more, or even as much, as you do Morgan and Wong as far as the
X-files. It doesn't mean I want to crucify him.
Now, I've had quite enough of this as you have proven yourself to be a
totally dishonest and illogical debater, that simply is not worth
bothering with from this time on. So if you're replying for my
benefit, don't bother, as I will not read another one of replies on
this issue let alone answer it.