LCD projection lamp life
tony
projection TV. Nice set but The salesman did not tell me that the lamp
might have only about 2000 hrs life. That's 170 days if used 12 hours a
day. Damn...At a cost of $180, this means over $360 per year in lamp costs.
Is this a reasonable entertainment assumption ?
Also, is it wise to just shut down using the cable box as the controller,
or should I also turn off the TV ????
Thanx for your help
Tony
pistor
> might have only about 2000 hrs life. That's 170 days if used 12 hours a
> day. Damn...At a cost of $180, this means over $360 per year in lamp costs.
> Is this a reasonable entertainment assumption ?
You watch TV 12 hours a day?
Victor
bmoag
replacement.
Have you checked with Sony?
MrMike6by9
put it away, it still worked and will be a spare for when the one eventually
goes so my down time will be only the 15 minutes it takes to replace.
YMMV
--
"If a cluttered desk is the sign of a cluttered mind, what is the
significance of a clean desk?"
- Laurence J. Peter
"tony" <maso...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:tMgWf.61104$Jd.1...@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net...
EF in FLA
No, most unwise.
ef
MrMike6by9
properly cool the lamp. My original lamp ran for 2ннн.5 years and was still
good when I packed it away. My set is on an UPS since my neighborhood has up
6 to 8 power failures a year. I fear not letting the lamp cool or the surges
when the power is restored. I also only turn off the set when I'm not
planning to watch for periods longer than 20-30 minutes, otherwise it stays
on until I'm done.
YMMV
BTW - I found my box, a Moto 6412, can do some flaky stuff like not showing
picture or sound unless I play a stored program, if I turn it off like other
appliances. Besides, its never really fully off anyway.
--
"If a cluttered desk is the sign of a cluttered mind, what is the
significance of a clean desk?"
- Laurence J. Peter
[deletions]
Dave Gower
"tony" <maso...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:tMgWf.61104$Jd.1...@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net...
>projection TV. Nice set but The salesman did not tell me that the lamp
>TV ????
Some people have complained about early lamp failures, but they are rated at
6000+ hours, so you quite likely will get that. Always turn off the TV a
couple of minutes before disconnecting the power. The fan needs to run to
cool down the lamp properly, otherwise your salesman's prediction may come
true. I run mine on a UPS to avoid damage from power outages (common out
here in the boonies). It also seems to improve the picture quality, making
it more stable and clear.
I have over 2000 hours on the lamp in my JVC, and it's still working like
the day I got it. I did buy a back-up lamp however, because some people have
reported backlogs on replacement lamps. I figure I'll need one sooner or
later, so not much is lost.
bearman
"Fred Dehl" <fred...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Xns979568DCA...@66.26.32.9...
> "tony" <maso...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
> news:tMgWf.61104$Jd.1...@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net:
>
>> The salesman did not tell me that the lamp
>> might have only about 2000 hrs life. That's 170 days if used 12
>> hours a day. Damn...At a cost of $180, this means over $360 per year
>> in lamp costs.
>
> the MONEY to afford the lamp.
Who the fuck are you to cast aspersions on the OP? Maybe he's retired.
Maybe he's laid up, bedridden. Maybe he's housebound for any number of
reasons..
Mind your own business.
Bearman
FDR
"bearman" <no...@home.com> wrote in message
news:keydnakELOS...@comcast.com...
Maybe he daytrades for a living and watches MSNBC or Bloomberg or whatever.
L Alpert
"Fred Dehl" <fred...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Xns979568DCA...@66.26.32.9...
> "tony" <maso...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
> news:tMgWf.61104$Jd.1...@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net:
>
>> might have only about 2000 hrs life. That's 170 days if used 12
>> hours a day. Damn...At a cost of $180, this means over $360 per year
>> in lamp costs.
>
> the MONEY to afford the lamp.
He may be in the same situation as I am, with a lot of people in the house.
I have one retired, 2 college students, and a couple others with odd
schedules. It may be on for a total of 8-12 hours in a day, and I never
even get to watch it.
John Kruk's Malignant Ball
"L Alpert" <alp...@xxgmail.com> wrote in message
news:Z%AWf.8062$%m4....@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
Or maybe fred dehl is just a screaming asshole....yeah, that seems like a
pretty likely scenario.
>
tony
and share our viewing experience during the day.. Some people are so
shallow.
Tony
General Schvantzkoph
I had an early failure in my Sony 50" that was replaced under warranty (I
got the extended warranty that covers lamp failures as well as in home
service). Since the original lamp failed the replacement has run for 15
months. I tend to fall asleep with the TV on so it's frequently on
overnight. One thing that I did after the first lamp failure was to put
the TV on a UPS so that power failures wouldn't cause the TV to power off
ungracefully.
Dave Gower
"pistor" <pist...@gmail.com> wrote
> You watch TV 12 hours a day?
He has a perfect right to watch as much TV as he wants. You got nothing
better to do than tell others how to run their lives?
Pathetic.
van...@netscape.com
I have a friedn with panasonic, who had the same early mortality
problem. lamp was replaced under warrantee.
He also bought a UPS, and has not had a problem since, and he is a TV
watching junky.
A UPS is essential for these types of sets - they do not like an un
sequenced shutdown,,,ie a power failure, even a brief one. They need
to keep the cooling fan running after the blub shuts down, to prevent
cracking of the glass.
You can get a good UPS that will run the TV for 10 or so minutes,
for under 100 dollars,,,now you do have to turn off the set before the
UPS runs out of juice for this to be effective if the power outage is
longer than the UPS can keep the set going.
So now you ask,,why doesnt the TV manufacture provide an on board
battery back up for the fan - well you want cheap TVs ,,,,
Sam Spade
I am almost 70 and wished I had no money problems. Since you have no
money problems why were you lamenting the costs and life of the lamp in
your post that started this thread?
ZVR
Not true, that is the average actually.
Leonard Caillouet
news:442b641a$0$10037$9a6e...@unlimited.newshosting.com...
>> That is a low rating for a projection TV lamp
>
> Not true, that is the average actually.
The idea of an average rating for a projection lamp is not very meaningful.
Individual lamps are rated by the OEM and the manufacturer of the set for
some average life expectance, but these ratings vary greatly, from 1000
hours to 8000 hours. It is difficult to discuss the matter without some
context such as the specific set or lamp.
Also, your post is even less useful, since it does not even include the
context of what average rating the previous poster was suggesting.
Leonard
L Alpert
"Sam Spade" <S...@coldmail.com> wrote in message
news:r7HWf.14545$6a1.4335@fed1read04...
I don't know about Tony, but some people are just that way (myself
included). I think nothing of dropping $5k on a TV, then try to figure out
the costs of the bulb life over time and not be happy with it! It's just
the engineer part of me....
FDR
I think it's a matter of "hidden costs". One doesn't think about repairs or
maintenance but are usually ok with seeing a fixed price when buying a tv.
Dave Gower
"L Alpert" <alp...@xxgmail.com> wrote
>... I think nothing of dropping $5k on a TV, then try to figure out the
>costs of the bulb life over time and not be happy with it! It's just the
>engineer part of me....
Like some others, I'm not worried about the cost of a lamp, but since there
is talk of a backlog of orders for lamps for my set (G-series JVC) I got a
spare lamp just for peace of mind. Makes me wonder if the backlog is caused
not by lots of failures but rather by lots of people buying spares like I
did. That's the economist in me speaking ;<) ...
I've wondered about the idea that manufacturers could provide some kind of
simple power back-up for the fan. It wouldn't have to have much energy, just
enough to run the fan for a minute or so. What could it cost, maybe $10 at
the factory level? You'd think it could be made available at least in
higher-end sets. That would be a better solution than a UPS, since you still
have to turn the set off before the UPS runs out of juice.
Alternately, I wonder if a heat chimney could be built into the case above
the lamp, which would keep some air flowing by convection.
I guess the ultimate solution will be LED lamps, which run cooler.
Sam Spade
>
> I think it's a matter of "hidden costs". One doesn't think about repairs or
> maintenance but are usually ok with seeing a fixed price when buying a tv.
>
>
Good point.
A really great example are the so-called affordable color laser
printers. The four toner cartridges cost almost as much as the printer.
L Alpert
"Dave Gower" <davegow-...@magma.ca> wrote in message
news:5IydncjcuOBPd7bZ...@magma.ca...
All good ideas. Maybe they will be incorporated and the end of the
technology life cycle....<sigh>
>
>
ZVR
> meaningful. Individual lamps are rated by the OEM and the manufacturer of
> the set for some average life expectance, but these ratings vary greatly,
> from 1000 hours to 8000 hours. It is difficult to discuss the matter
> without some context such as the specific set or lamp.
I'm sorry, but that is exactly what "average" numbers are used for. If 90%
of the lamps being manufactured on Earth have a lifespan of 2000 hrs, 2%
have a lifespan of 8000 hrs, and 8% have a lifespan of 5000 hrs, you can
safely say that the average life expectancy of a lamp (WITHOUT getting into
particulars) is 0.9 * 2000 + 0.02 * 8000 + 0.08 * 5000 = 2360 hrs. This is
how statistics are built by the way. If you dwell into the details like
specific set or lamp, you are narrowing it down so much that the term
"average" makes no sense anymore - you are then talking about manufacturing
tolerance for that particular make/model, which is a totally different
issue.
By the way those numbers above are just an example but consistent with what
I hear from other people; I heard lots of complaints about lamps being done
or very low in brightness after only 1500-2500 hrs, and very few claims of
people getting more than 4000 hrs out of their lamp. I mean, heck, even if
you run a search in this newsgroup - see what kind of numbers others are
posting. Of course there will always be manufacturers with better products,
better lamps etc but that doesn't mean they are "average"
ZVR
http://tv.about.com/od/dlp/a/DLPprojlamp.htm
Not saying that about.com should be taken as the world's biggest authority,
just proving that there's others that think the same (about average
lifespans of projection lamps, that is - see the "How long does a DLP
projection lamp usually last?" section).
Leonard Caillouet
"FDR" <_remove_spam_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:yVQWf.10341$Mj....@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
Why not? I never make a purchase without considering the life expectancy,
repairability, and costs into my estimation of value. If people would do so
and demand more, we would have better products. I might be out of a job
fixing them, but the consumer would be better off.
Leonard
Leonard Caillouet
But it is meaningless to talk about averages across models with different
lamps and different applications. The meaningful numbers are the rating for
a particular lamp from the OEM and the manufacturer of the set, and the real
world data on whether they meet those expectations. The point is not that
life statistics are meaningless but that averages across produts with
different life ratings are. A 250W lamp in a Runco projector is rated for
2000hours. A 120W lamp in a Mitsubishi RPTV is rated for 4000 hours. They
are different beasts with different OEMs, different power supplies and
different applications. Some manufacturers have rated lamps for as much as
8000 hours. If the real world averages don't come close to that for those
sets, then people have a legitimate gripe. If the averages of all products
don't come close to that, so what? Some manufacturers rate their lamps for
as little as 1000 hours. Again, they are different products. Averaging
across products is meaningless in terms of what any particular user should
expect.
The calculations can be correct, but if the data is is meaningless in the
context of the question, the resulting statistic is equally meaningless.
Leonard
Leonard Caillouet
The real value in that article is the statement that no one really knows.
The life of these lamps varies so greatly, and with no good field statistics
available, we really don't know. I can say from our experience selling and
servicing these products for years now, that problems seem to come in
spurts, and seem to be exagerated by those who have problems. Those that do
not never squeak. I have noticed that the products that use the Osram lamps
seem to have less early lamp failure than those using the Philips lamps. We
have not had enough of the longer life rated lamps in the field for long
enough to know if they are meeting the manufacturers' expectations, but so
far, we are changing a lot fewer lamps in the Mitsubishi and Sony products
rated for at least 4000 hours than we used to in the units with lamp ratings
of 1000-2000 hours.
My experience as a dealer and servicer is that the problems with lamps have
been overstated, but one should be prepared to replace them unexpectedly.
Leonard
Kyle Rodgers
jumping all over you. Obviously has plenty of experience with his fat ass in
front of the boob tube for 20 hr stretches shoveling Doritos into his maw.
"Dave Gower" <davegow-...@magma.ca> wrote in message
news:FamdndW9UZFmk7bZ...@magma.ca...
Sam Spade
>
>
> My experience as a dealer and servicer is that the problems with lamps have
> been overstated, but one should be prepared to replace them unexpectedly.
>
>
bulb life expectacy, which invokes less than full confidence on the part
of the consumer. And, for the consumer to have to learn on a forum like
this, rather than from a Sony, et al, that an UPS is a very good idea
with a DLP set, is another example of "have a nice day, now go away, we
have your money."
Leonard Caillouet
The manufacturers seem to be more than happy to discuss the matter. Sony
has estimated lamp life at between 6000 and 8000 hours to half-brightness
for some of their sets. Mitsubishi has set the lamp timer for replacement
at 4000 hours. Yamaha has rated the lamps in some of their projectors as
low as 1000 hours, even though the OEM rates them much higher. Other
manufacturers have varying estimates, depending on the rating from the OEM
for a particular lamp, how high their standard for output is, and how
conservative they are (like Yamaha). It is true that many consumers have
had lamps fail before these numbers of hours. I suspected from the start
that the Sony numbers were optimistic, and at least for many, this has been
the case. Others may get that many hours.
There was a period of time when, in particular, Sony and Samsung were having
large numbers of failures with the Philips lamps. Others, like Runco and
Hitachi, seem to have had similar bad batches of lamps and Philips made
supplies that had very high failure rates. Since there are only two OEMs
that make most of the lamps, the manufacturers are limited in terms of how
much control they have over the matter. The results have varied greatly.
As a dealer, we happened to have missed the worst of the Sony porblems and
have had clients experience virtually no problems with lamps. The
Mitsubishi sets have been very good as well, in our experience.
The manufacturers will all tell you the same things. The numbers are
averages. Lamps will produce less light as they age and may become erratic
in output or have the output drop dramatically just before they fail. Lamp
life is affected adversely by numerous start cycles, as well as the number
of hours run. Intermittent power can significantly shorten the life of a
lamp. Frequent restarts will do the same. A UPS is useful in areas where
frequent outages occur because it limits the number of start cycles. Unlike
what many will tell you, it has little to do with not running the fan cool
down. Nearly all sets now have timers or temperature protection to keep a
hot lamp from being started. Slowing the cool-down by killing the fan has
no effect. Tthe reason that they run the fans after the lamp is down is to
allow a quicker restart. Tech reps at Panasonic, Sony, & Mitsubishi have
confirmed this. They all say the same thing...a UPS is OK but not needed
unless there are frequent outages.
The lack of information about lamp life is more the fault of the clueless
and dishonest sales people and consumers that don't do their homework.
Leonard
Matthew L. Martin
> "Sam Spade" <S...@coldmail.com> wrote in message
> news:qvtXf.14828$6a1.5451@fed1read04...
>> Leonard Caillouet wrote:
>>>
>>> My experience as a dealer and servicer is that the problems with lamps
>>> have been overstated, but one should be prepared to replace them
>>> unexpectedly.
>>>
>> The set manufacturers are disinclined to provide consumers with expected
>> bulb life expectacy, which invokes less than full confidence on the part
>> of the consumer. And, for the consumer to have to learn on a forum like
>> this, rather than from a Sony, et al, that an UPS is a very good idea with
>> a DLP set, is another example of "have a nice day, now go away, we have
>> your money."
>
Excellent information snipped.
>
> The lack of information about lamp life is more the fault of the clueless
> and dishonest sales people and consumers that don't do their homework.
>
Reinforced by a few people who, after having a lamp fail earlier than
they would like, attempt to extrapolate their experience to all people.
Well, them and the conspiracy theorists.
Matthew
--
I'm a contractor. If you want an opinion I'll sell you one.
Which one do you want?
Sam Spade
>
> The lack of information about lamp life is more the fault of the clueless
> and dishonest sales people and consumers that don't do their homework.
>
> Leonard
>
>
My owner's handbook for my Sony DLP says nothing about lamp life or
power protection.
The Sony web site is silent, too.
So, where do you get them to tell you all this?
Leonard Caillouet
Sony Tech reps. The number 8000 hours has shown up in a number of places.
Adds for the xl-2100 replacement lamp even show it. As I said, I think that
those numbers are optimistic, but I have not seen anything in the sets that
we have sold to suggest that is the case...just speculation.
Leonard
Sam Spade
I don't mean to be argumentative, but Sony tech reps are not part of the
normal resource for consumers to do their homework. Primarily, that
would be the specifications and owner's handbook. It isn't the sales
person's responsibility, and more than I expect a car salesman to know
much of anything. It's the OEM's responsibility.
Leonard Caillouet
Not trying to argue. I agree. What I differed with was the assumption that
they don't want to discuss it. I have experienced differently, both with
tech reps and manufacturer's sales reps. The fact that they don't
communicate the info well has more to do with the disconnect between tech
people and sales than anything else. Most Sony sales reps are nothing more
than clerks on the phone, for instance. It is more a matter of ineptitude
and the say business is done with CE products being more of a box moving
venture than a sales issue. Salesmen get no real training on the product,
consumers can't get past queing systems and support people with a menu of
questions and the approriate answers to those only.
The OEMs of the lamps, BTW are not the makers of the sets. There are two
companies, Philips and Osram (Sylvania) and both publish life ratings for
the lamps that the TV makers use when determining the life expectancy in
their product. The problem from a consumer's point of view is that the OEM
part numbers have no relation to those of the manufacturers so the info is
hard to figure out. Some of the lamps are made specifically for a
manufacturer and they may not publish those. This is typically not the
case, as the same lamp can often be found in several products.
The Sony numbers of 8000 hours have been well known for some time. A google
search reveals both this info and the numerous reports of anectdotal
evidence that they don't last this long. A smart consumer would check
things out before buying. A call to any authorized service center for a
product in consideration is a good idea for any buyer. This would yield
this info regarding the available local service, including whether the
servicer is willing to be helpful or not. Any servicer that would not tell
you the life expectancy of a lamp, or find out if you asked, is not the kind
of person you want to be doing business with.
My point is that there is info out there if you look. The fact that it is
not printed where you looked does not mean that it is not available. It
also does not necessarily indicate that manufacturers are trying to hid the
information nor that they don't want to talk about it. How many people
actually pay attention to the info in their manuals anyway? How many make
sure that the system is grounded properly or that they clean the filters
properly, or even know whether there is a filter to be cleaned? A good
dealer will have salespeople that know to educate people on these issues and
prepare consumers for the expected costs of ownership. When one buys from a
warehouse, more of that responsibility falls on the consumer, de facto. It
is the reality of today's market.
Leonard
Sam Spade
> How many people
> actually pay attention to the info in their manuals anyway?
That's a different issue. The manual is the reasonable and expected
place for the OEM to provide complete information for its product. If
"how many people actually pay attention to the info in the manual..." is
relevant to the manufacturer's decision about manual content then that
doesn't say much about the OEM.
A presales call to a service center is not in the realm of reasonable
consumer investigation. The sources on the Internet regarding consumer
electronics is more an advertising world than meaningful information.
I only knew my set had a bulb that could burn out because a friend had a
similar model and told me before I bought.
I still have no clue about cleaning a filter nor has Sony provided me
any information about that requirement.
Leonard Caillouet
> Leonard Caillouet wrote:
> A presales call to a service center is not in the realm of reasonable
> consumer investigation. The sources on the Internet regarding consumer
> electronics is more an advertising world than meaningful information.
This is simply not true. I take calls from consumers asking this kind of
question and I am happy to help them. True, most of them are our regualr
clients who are accustomed to our level of service, but I do get calls from
consumers just looking for info. I just called around to the local
appliance servicers regarding washing machines. With some I just got the
service writer who knew nothing and could not speak with a tech. With
others I actually spoke to the guys who service them. The best info seems
to come from the people who both sell and service the products. Of course
you have to fill in the gaps with info from the internet, etc. Some info is
good, most is BS. You have to be diligent and do your homework. I did not
refer to any owner's manuals before buying a product.
> I only knew my set had a bulb that could burn out because a friend had a
> similar model and told me before I bought.
That's what you get for buying from a dealer who knows nothing about the
products. If one of our salespeople made a sale this way, or one of our
installers did not advise the client how to clean the filter, if ther is
one, they would get a lecture and an education. You simply did not do your
homework. If you had, you could not miss the fact that lamp life is a big
issue with these sets.
> I still have no clue about cleaning a filter nor has Sony provided me any
> information about that requirement.
Some Sony sets do not have filters. Otherwise fine products, but this is a
severe limitation in my view. I just serviced a Sony with no filters for a
bad blue LCD panel. The client had a severe problem with dust, dog hair,
etc. This is one area where the manufacturers are coming up short. The
sets need filtering and the filters need to be accessible from the front,
particualrly with 3-chip systems, and most importantly with LCDs. There
should be a big tag on the screen when you open the box that advises uses
how to clean them, and on the importance of doing so. That is one of the
reasons that I like single-chip DLP from a service perspective.
Instead of complaining, why not learn to take responsibility for your
purchasing decisions. Your criticism of the manufacturers is valid to some
degree, but if you take the responsibility for educating yourself before
making a buying decision, you will likely find much of the info that you
need. There could certainly be more regarding the reliability and
serviceability of most products, but you can get a pretty good picture of
the possibilities if you just ask and look. Just a bit of digging or a
question posted here or on AVS would have educated you a lot.
Leonard
Sam Spade
>
> Some Sony sets do not have filters. Otherwise fine products, but this is a
> severe limitation in my view. I just serviced a Sony with no filters for a
> bad blue LCD panel. The client had a severe problem with dust, dog hair,
> etc. This is one area where the manufacturers are coming up short. The
> sets need filtering and the filters need to be accessible from the front,
> particualrly with 3-chip systems, and most importantly with LCDs. There
> should be a big tag on the screen when you open the box that advises uses
> how to clean them, and on the importance of doing so. That is one of the
> reasons that I like single-chip DLP from a service perspective.
>
> Instead of complaining, why not learn to take responsibility for your
> purchasing decisions. Your criticism of the manufacturers is valid to some
> degree, but if you take the responsibility for educating yourself before
> making a buying decision, you will likely find much of the info that you
> need. There could certainly be more regarding the reliability and
> serviceability of most products, but you can get a pretty good picture of
> the possibilities if you just ask and look. Just a bit of digging or a
> question posted here or on AVS would have educated you a lot.
>
> Leonard
>
>
I read Consumers Reports, and have for years. They did not go into this
depth about the types of sets and their potential or actual service
problems.
Your view of how the consumer should proceed before purchase is just
plain silly.
Leonard Caillouet
Consumer Reports is a good start, but as you have learned they don't give
the full story. Some things they do well, like testing how well washing
machines wash and consolidating comparison info, but they often miss the
point on complex issues.
My view of how a consumer should proceed is to gather as much information
from as many sources as possible, take each source for what it is worth,
weigh it all against one's personal needs and desires, and make an educated
decision. An important part of that view is to consider the service and
maintenence issues with a given product and take responsibility for the
decsisions made and their consequences. What is silly about any of that?
Leonard
Jim Cate
What's "silly" is your ridiculous view of the extent the purchaser of a
projection TV should be required to research the unit and your extremely
one-sided "buyer beware" conclusions about the matter. Any manufacturer
who markets a front projector selling for $1,000 - $2,000 (as an
example), in which a replacement bulb will cost over $350, and in which
the bulb may go out at any time, should at a minimum,warn the purchaser
of that fact UPFRONT AND IN BOLD LETTERS, IMO. Additionally, the
customer should be told that the warranty (in most instances) doesn't
cover the lamp more than a short period and be given the option to
purchase a product warranty on the lamp, which in most cases he can't,
even if he wants to.
It's simply incredible that you would expect a purchaser of a consumer
item such as this to have to call a service rep or do extensive research
into information available from "many sources," and then make judgments
as to what each is worth, before purchasing such an item. This is
particularly the case since the lamp issues aren't problems most TV's in
use today are subject to and are therefore not generally known to the
public.
FYI, I happen to own a Sanyo Z4 with such a bulb, and I did do my
homework into the lamp issues before buying the unit. Actually, one of
the factors in my decision to go with the Sanyo unit was their recent
offer of an extra bulb with each projector, which, of course, is an
offer not generally available with such purchases. Information about
the lamp costs and the very limited warranty on the lamp WAS NOT easily
ascertained from reading the promotional literature and advertising
brochures on the web or those given to the typical purchaser. An
estimated "lamp life" was included in one of the last pages of an
extensive specification. - Are you saying that consumers should be
expected to read extensive, multi-page specifications of appliances,
electronic gear, etc., and that if they don't, or if they don't
understand their implications, then the manufacturer shouldn't be
responsible for any hidden or unexpected problems or expenses involved
with the unit?
Jim
Jim Cate
Leonard Caillouet wrote:
>
What's "silly" is your ridiculous view of the extent the purchaser of a
projection TV should be required to research the unit and your extremely
one-sided "buyer beware" conclusions about the matter. Any manufacturer
who markets a front projector selling for $1,000 - $2,500 (as an
example), in which a replacement bulb will cost $350-$500, and in which
the bulb may go out at any time, should at a minimum, warn the purchaser
of that fact UPFRONT AND IN BOLD LETTERS, imo. Additionally, the
customer should be told that the warranty (in most instances) doesn't
cover the lamp for more than a short period and be given the option to
purchase a product warranty on the lamp, which in most cases he can't,
even if he wants to.
It's simply incredible that you would expect a purchaser of a consumer
item such as this to have to call a service rep or do extensive research
into information available from "many sources," and then make judgments
as to what each is worth, before purchasing such an item. This is
particularly the case since the lamp issues aren't problems most TV's in
use today are subject to and are therefore not generally known to the
public.
FYI, I happen to own a Sanyo Z4 with such a bulb, and I did do my
homework into the lamp issues before buying the unit. (Actually, one of
the factors in my decision to go with the Sanyo unit was their recent
offer of an extra bulb with each projector, which, of course, is an
offer not generally available with such purchases.) Information about
the lamp costs and the very limited warranty on the lamp WAS NOT easily
ascertained from reading the promotional literature and advertising
brochures on the web or those given to the typical purchaser. An
estimated "lamp life" was included in one of the last pages of a lengthy
(multi-page) list of specifications. - Are you saying that consumers
should be expected to read extensive, multi-page technical
specifications of appliances, electronic gear, etc., and that if they
don't, or if they don't understand their implications, then the
manufacturer shouldn't be responsible for any unexpected problems or
further costs?
Jim
>
Jim Cate
$400 for a light bulb, even a projection bulb. - Paying $400 for a
replacement bulb that normally is not covered under warranty and is, of
course, crucial to the ongoing use of the TV is sort of a new and unique
concept. So when mention is made by the dealer or in the promotional
material that the lamp may have to be replaced, it isn't the kind of
thing that would normally register with or concern a typical, even
prudent consumer unless the implications are clearly explained to him
(or her).
Jim
Leonard Caillouet
"Jim Cate" <jim...@pdq.net> wrote in message
news:123isl4...@corp.supernews.com...
It may be silly to you, but it reflects the reality of the marketplace. As
a dealer, we work hard to make sure that our clients fully understand the
service and maintentence required on the sets that we sell. I am saying
that a consumer should do what it takes to get the information that is
relevant. If that means doing a lot of research so that one can have the
luxury of buying at a low price from warehouses rather than from quality
dealers, then that is the way it is.
The lamp life issue has been well known and debated greatly. Anyone who
does not know that their DLP, LCD, DILA, LCOS, or SXRD projection product
needs a lamp periodically has not done adequate homework and has purchased
from a source that does not deserve their business. I don't defend the
manufacturers with regard to poor information. I have repeatedly veen
critical of most of them and been a consumer advocate in more ways than you
can imagine. That does not change the fact that a good consumers do the
homework until convinced that they understand the product that they are
buying. The market is a viscious one. That is a fact of life. Maybe
people should not HAVE TO do such research, but it is foolish not to.
Leonard
Jim Cate
Leonard Caillouet wrote:
So, the market is a viscious [sic] one, and that's a fact of life,
Leanard? Isn't that the kind of argument Firestone and Ford gave about
people being burned to death on their tires and in their SUVs? Isn't
that what the tobacco companies stated when they were fighting the
imposition of warnings on cigarette packs, limits on sales to children,
and other regulations? And earlier, isn't that what the 19th century
work shops said about children working 12 hours per day, and workers
being mutilated and killed because of the lack of effective safety
regulations? Etc., etc., etc.
In case you haven't noticed, in this particular country we have laws and
regulations that protect consumers from misleading advertisement, hidden
defects and costs, etc. For example, we have deceptive trade practice
laws that often include treble damages. - Perhaps things are less
complicated for merchants in other countries, but generally, it seems
that most entrepreneurs like the overall business conditions in the
United States, as compared with third world countries, for example.
I take it that you are a dealer. Obviously, I don't know anything about
your own practices. But let me ask a question. - Do you routinely
explain to your customers that, in addition to costing hundreds of
dollars, not under warranty, and subject to going out at any time, their
projection lamps also will get progressively dimmer over time during
normal use? Mine, for example, is already exhibiting some deterioration
and dimming after only three months of use.
Jim
~P~
research is an idiot - plain and simple. You should research at least a bit
for every $100+ purchase you make. A lawn mower, your vacumn, your MP3
player, your new hot-tub, etc., etc.
If you know nothing about the technology, then there are SO many ways to
find out these days it is amazing and wonderful websites and newsgroups like
this one can help steer people in the right direction.
Did YUGO advertise that having a minor bump in the car would cause more
damage than the car was worth? Of course not! According to your philosophy
they should have though.
I'm not disagreeing with you that it would be great if all manufacturers of
ALL products were required to be upfront about every single little thing
that you may, or may not, have to deal with on any product you purchase.
But, this is not required by law and people want to SELL you their products,
not discourage you from buying them.
I recently sat down with a high-end projection company and one of the things
they said was that their 24/7 DLP projectors had a service kit that should
be installed every 18 months. It included all new fans and a new color
wheel for the projectors. About $5,000 in parts, and this was a REGULAR
repair item for that type of environment.
Does anyone here even know that DLP color wheels are a 'regular' maintenance
item, or that the fans on projectors may be regular maintenance items?
Should it be disclosed?
Almost all items that cost $1,000 or more require some sort of regular
maintenance and upkeep to keep them running their best and I believe that
the burden ENTIRELY falls on the customer to ask those questions prior to
making their purchase or it is the buyers fault - not the manufacturers
fault.
Do you disagree? Quite clearly - but where is the line drawn for you? What
do you deal with every day that you would not want people to know the
'issues' that may arrise with the product? I deal with hundreds of
different A/V components every day - all of them can have overheating
issues, fan issues, buggy software, etc. There is no way to honestly
portray every possible failure and the KNOWN issues are soemthing worth
asking about ahead of time or doing 5 minutes of research on.
Spend $1,000 or more with zero research... that's just lunacy!
"Jim Cate" <jim...@pdq.net> wrote in message
news:123isl4...@corp.supernews.com...
>>What's "silly" is your ridiculous view of the extent the purchaser of a
BillJ
>
>Anyone making a multi-thousand dollar purchase of any type who doesn't do
>research is an idiot - plain and simple.>>>
Maybe idiot is a bit strong, but certainly you should research any major
purchase. The internet makes this very, very easy. You can access customer
reviews, magazine reviews, articles on the technology, manufacturers specs,
price comparisons, and ask questions in discussion groups. It's quick and easy.
Armed with your research you can go to dealers and actually see and play with
the product. And you can ask intelligent questions, which usually reveal
whether the salesperson knows what he's talking about or is just pushing the
product with the highest commission.
There really is no excuse in this internet world for anyone making a major
purchase without fully understanding what they're getting.
--
NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth
Leonard Caillouet
> So, the market is a viscious [sic] one, and that's a fact of life,
> Leanard? Isn't that the kind of argument Firestone and Ford gave about
> people being burned to death on their tires and in their SUVs? Isn't that
> what the tobacco companies stated when they were fighting the imposition
> of warnings on cigarette packs, limits on sales to children, and other
> regulations? And earlier, isn't that what the 19th century work shops
> said about children working 12 hours per day, and workers being mutilated
> and killed because of the lack of effective safety regulations? Etc.,
> etc., etc.
>
> In case you haven't noticed, in this particular country we have laws and
> regulations that protect consumers from misleading advertisement, hidden
> defects and costs, etc. For example, we have deceptive trade practice
> laws that often include treble damages. - Perhaps things are less
> complicated for merchants in other countries, but generally, it seems that
> most entrepreneurs like the overall business conditions in the United
> States, as compared with third world countries, for example.
>
> I take it that you are a dealer. Obviously, I don't know anything about
> your own practices. But let me ask a question. - Do you routinely explain
> to your customers that, in addition to costing hundreds of dollars, not
> under warranty, and subject to going out at any time, their projection
> lamps also will get progressively dimmer over time during normal use?
> Mine, for example, is already exhibiting some deterioration and dimming
> after only three months of use.
>
> Jim
I am the service manager for a dealer, yes. We routinely explain to clients
that lamps have an expected average life, but they can go out at any time.
We also point out that lamps typically do not maintain their output at new
levels over the life of the lamp. The get dimmer with time and often just
before failing they drop in brightness considerably. We routinely try to
educate our clients on the advantages and disadvantages of all of the
technologies that we sell so that they are not surprised by what they get
and so that they can make informed decisions. This is why many of our
clients come back and refer others to us, and we very rarely have a
dissatisfied one.
My point, as I said again in the previous post, is not that manufacturers
could not do better, but to inform consumers of the realities of the market.
Again, I have been a consistent critic of manufacturers and their service
policies. My point with regard to lamp life has consistently been that the
life is highly variable, but many people do get longer life from their
lamps. You just don't hear from them because they have no reason to tell
anyone. The information regarding the variability in lamp life is certainly
easily available to anyone who does a little searching. Virtually all of
the forums on the internet that deal with consumer video have threads and
numerous complaints. Telling the previous poster that he is a lousy
consumer for not checking it out before buying a product does not mean that
I condone dangerous and socially destructive practices like child labor,
concealing dangers, or avoiding recalls where they are warranted. The
implication is offensive and demonstrates that you have not read the thread
for context and are more interested in looking for someone to blame vor the
issues you have with your set. Won't fly here.
If you want real information or help with a problem, I will do my best to
provides it. If you want context for understanding issues related to HDTV
or other consumer electronics products I will try to help provide it. If
you want to provoke a debate on an issue I will be happy to debate it, but
stay on topic. The kind of abuses that you describe have little relation to
the lamp issues in current television products. In fact, many manufacturers
who have had problems have taken steps to fix them and to take care of
customers. I know Sony, Panasonic, and Samsumg have all extended warranties
for some customers with repeated problems and changed or modified supplies
in their sets when that was an issue. Samsung even changed suppliers
mid-production when they were having lots of problems. There have been
numerous thread recently in AV and repair forums about Toshiba extending
their lamp warranties. No one is going to be injured nor die from a lamp
failure unless they are doing something that is clearly cautioned against
with the warning labels on the sets and lamps.
If you are having dimming after three months, you obviously have a defective
lamp or ballast. Why have you not had it changed under warranty? We would
deal with this kind of problem right away. There can be consequences for
not doing so. If there is any uneven lighting across the screen you can do
damage to some of the parts in the optical path and can damage LCD panels,
particularly the blue. I jsut changed a lamp in a Sharp that was near
failure and one side was much hotter than the other to the point where the
coating on the glass in front of the lamp was burned. I have seen others
with similar damage to polarizing filters. Left unrepaired, I have seen LCD
panel damage.
Market realities dictate that people have to be smart consumers to protect
themselves. Consumer laws are far from complete and enforcement is often
scattered at best. If you believe that such laws are going to eliminate the
need to do research before buying, you are simply mistaken, or foolish.
What laws are being violated by the TV makers, BTW, with respect to the
marketing of these products? What laws would you suggest?
Leonard
Jim Cate
~P~ wrote:
I think that's a gross distortion of what I was saying. - I never
suggested, of course, that the manufacturers or dealers should be
required to "portray every possible failure". But they should be
required to tell consumers about issues (such as $400 lamps that
deteriorate and may go out at any time) that are out of the usual
experience for consumers buying TVs, and that may increase substantially
the costs entailed in using the product. Usually, the purchase of a TV
involves comparing features and picture quality at several dealers, and
perhaps reviewing reviews in Consumers Reports, etc. The major factors
discussed with dealers and in such reports are picture quality,
features, connections, picture resolution, customer satisfaction, etc.
My point relative to projection TVs is that the problem with ongoing
expenses of lamp replacement and lamp dimming is out of the usual
experience of consumers when they purchase a TV, and speaking with
various dealers, researching the performance, features, reliability,
etc., as usually done when selecting a TV would imo not pick up the
extent of the "lamp problems" for the average consumer. And if you
think that manufacturers and dealers have no obligation to explain these
issues clearly and upfront (and that if the consumer doesn't educate
himself independently and "catch" the problem, then it's his tough luck)
then your understanding of business law is about 100 years out of date.
Is the information available on the web? Certainly. (For example, I did
research the issue before purchasing the Sanyo and was fully aware of
the problems.) But I, you, and others on such discussion groups, should
remember that we techies aren't average, "normal" consumers. And we
shouldn't expect the average consumer to become technically educated
just to purchase a TV. - Consider that if all purchasers of TVs and
audio gear were expected to know the technology as most on this ng do,
then the market for hddt, surround sound, audio, etc. would would remain
a limited, hobbyist specialty, and prices for equipment and software
wouldn't benefit from market incentives.
Yes, the information is out there, if you are willing to dig through a
substantial amount of technical material, or if you know what to look
for in the first place. If you DON'T know about the problem, it's
certainly not pointed out clearly in the promotional materials available
from the manufacturers or dealers.
Jim
Jim Cate
Leonard Caillouet wrote:
> "Jim Cate" <jim...@pdq.net> wrote in message
> news:123j58e...@corp.supernews.com...
>
>
>
>
Leonard,
From your comments, it sounds like your dealership is doing a good job
of informing your customers of such issues as well as communicating with
the manufacturers about the problems. You are to be commended for such
policies. Obviously, the problems we are speaking of don't compare with
those of people killed in auto accidents, or through smoking cigarettes,
etc. My point was that the caveat emptor arguments of the tobacco and
auto/tire companies were similar to those I see posted on this newsgroup
and others in apparent defense of the projector manufacturers.
My concern is that, on this and similar discussion groups, we "techies"
have become so accustumed to the issue of lamp failures and costs that
we have tended to accept the manufacturers' position in the matter,
forgetting that the general public normally don't follow such
discussions or study lengthy technical specs and descriptions before
purchasing a TV. In my case, the several dealers I spoke with didn't
mention the issue, and the on-line dealerships provided promotional
material about the advantages and features of the projectors along with
lengthy technical specifications (that mentioned expected lamp life,
among many other factors, but not the costs). It was only through
reading comments on the AVS forum for several weeks that the extent of
the potential problems and the exceptions to warranty coverage became
apparent.
On a positive note, I have been pleased with the performance of my
Sanyo Z4 LCD projector, and my replacement bulb arrived in the mail today.
Jim
>
Dave Clary
a Sharp DLP and I absolutely love it, but after doing a little
Googling for a replacement lamp, I'm not looking forward to the day I
need to make that purchase!
Dave Clary/Corpus Christi, Tx
Home: http://davidclary.com
Kinky for Texas Gov
"Why The Hell Not"
Sam Spade
>
> Does anyone here even know that DLP color wheels are a 'regular' maintenance
> item, or that the fans on projectors may be regular maintenance items?
> Should it be disclosed?
When I buy an automobile I am provided with a comprehensive maintenance
schedule. Not so with my DLP. In fact, my Sony manual implies that my
DLP is maintenance free except for bulb replacement. And, for them to
not provide an inexpensive power backup for the bulb's fan is ridiculous.
This periodic maintenance pitch of your's sounds a bit like the sale of
snake oil.
>
> Almost all items that cost $1,000 or more require some sort of regular
> maintenance and upkeep to keep them running their best and I believe that
> the burden ENTIRELY falls on the customer to ask those questions prior to
> making their purchase or it is the buyers fault - not the manufacturers
> fault.
That is pure bullshit. It is classic "caveat emptor." The manufacturer
has an ethical duty to provide such information in a meaningful manner.
Steve Sherman
Sam Spade wrote:
That regular maintenance schedule for a TV sounds like
change your car's oil every 3000 miles.
However, when your picture becomes somewhat fuzzy and a bit dim,
it might help if you cleaned the screen. Now that I have said that,
you may also want to clean the lamp and screen in the TV.
If you electrocute yourself while doing it, don't blame me..
UN-PLUG THE TV before you start cleaning inside.
Steve
Sam Spade
> On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 06:36:08 -0700, Sam Spade <S...@coldmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>~P~ wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Does anyone here even know that DLP color wheels are a 'regular' maintenance
>>>item, or that the fans on projectors may be regular maintenance items?
>>>Should it be disclosed?
>>
>>When I buy an automobile I am provided with a comprehensive maintenance
>>schedule. Not so with my DLP. In fact, my Sony manual implies that my
>>DLP is maintenance free except for bulb replacement. And, for them to
>>not provide an inexpensive power backup for the bulb's fan is ridiculous.
>
>
Okay, so I am a dumb-ass consumer.
My set has a bulb that easily burns out and employs rear projection.
Leonard Caillouet
"~P~" <bmxtr...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:Xrm_f.336$ZW3.135@dukeread04...
> Does anyone here even know that DLP color wheels are a 'regular'
> maintenance
> item, or that the fans on projectors may be regular maintenance items?
> Should it be disclosed?
No manufacturer for any DLP product that we have sold considers the color
wheel to be a regular maintenence item. No manufaturers that I knbow of
consider this to be the case. Some are easy to change, like Samsung and
some RCAs, but neither considers them to be maintenence. Apparently they
are simply using inferior parts, as we have not seen the same need for
replacements in some other brands.
Can you point to some evidence that manufacturers consider the color wheel
to be a maintenence item? Or did you hear it from the BB or Sears sales
guys who also told you that the plasma in a PDP will have to be changed
periodically?
Leonard
Jeff Rife
> Or did you hear it from the BB or Sears sales
> guys who also told you that the plasma in a PDP will have to be changed
> periodically?
"Yeah, I need a plasma change. Can you use 40-weight this time...I've
heard it gives a better picture."
--
Jeff Rife | "What kind of universe is this where a man can't
| love his fake wife's mother's best friend?"
|
| -- Ned Dorsey, "Ned and Stacey"
fsp...@gmail.com
> I may regret what I have done. I recently purchased a Sony 42" LCD rear
> projection TV. Nice set but The salesman did not tell me that the lamp
> might have only about 2000 hrs life. That's 170 days if used 12 hours a
> day. Damn...At a cost of $180, this means over $360 per year in lamp costs.
> Is this a reasonable entertainment assumption ?
>
> Also, is it wise to just shut down using the cable box as the controller,
> or should I also turn off the TV ????
>
> Thanx for your help
>
> Tony
HI,tony,we are a original projector lamps supplier from China,supply low price projector lamps.contact with me if you are interested in.
John McWilliams
Does anyone buy rear projection TVs in 2014??