Problem with Romulans In enterprise
Andrew Curry
they going to get aroun d the fact that up until TOS Balance of terror no
human had ever seen a romulan and kirk and co were very surprised to find
that they had pointed ears, indicating that it wasn't simply them that had
never seen a romulan but that no human had, if they had this would be common
knowledge.
GeneK
They can still have Romulans on the new series. All they have to do is
make sure that no human or ally who sets eyes on a Romulan lives to tell
about what they saw. It's perfectly all right if *we* see the Romulans.
GeneK
TedJ...@mindspring.com
news:3B11609B.524483FE@genek_hates_spammers.com...
> They can still have Romulans on the new series. All they have to do is
> make sure that no human or ally who sets eyes on a Romulan lives to tell
> about what they saw. It's perfectly all right if *we* see the Romulans.
Some other possible tricks:
1) A Romulan spy is discovered impersonating a Vulcan, but
escapes. The humans assume he was surgically altered to
look Vulcan, not realizing Romulans naturally look that way.
2) A few humans do discover what Romulans look like, but
everyone involved is sworn to secrecy. The reason: the
Earth/Vulcan alliance during the war, and then during the
early Federation period, would be endangered if the general
population learned that these horrible Romulan enemies were
related to the Vulcans.
GeneK
>
> Some other possible tricks:
Both certainly workable, though to maintain continuity with
Spock's apparent surprise in "Balance of Terror," in (2) the
secret should be kept from the general population of Vulcan
as well, possibly because Vulcan leadership anticipates the
probability that some of its population would insist on
attempting to make peace and reunification overtures to the
Romulans if word got out...
GeneK
Otaku
Wouldn't the Vulcans already know anyway? I mean, the Romulans broke
off from their culture and went off, but Vulcans no doubt know that
these people left their common origins. I mean, Spock was taken aback
by the Romulan appearance, sure, but he also knew the history of his
planet when questioned.
The only thing I can think of to excuse Vulcans not knowing is that
"Romulans" would not have assumed the name "Romulan" until after they
left Vulcan.
Photoman
Or
The crew (or Archer is sent to negotiate the treaty they eventually came up
with (or a failed one) and he is sworn to secrecy on their appearance. Don't
forget T'Pol should know that the Roms were Vulcan offshoots. Archer can
come back to her, since he is wary of the Vulcans anyway, and confront her
with that revelation.
Ironwood
> Also "Romulan" is most likely a human term anyway. In the native
> languages of Romulus and Vulcan I'm sure it's called something else.
Rihanha, according to the Romulan(Rihansu)/English dictionary.
GeneK
>
> Wouldn't the Vulcans already know anyway? I mean, the Romulans broke
> off from their culture and went off, but Vulcans no doubt know that
> these people left their common origins. I mean, Spock was taken aback
> by the Romulan appearance, sure, but he also knew the history of his
> planet when questioned.
> The only thing I can think of to excuse Vulcans not knowing is that
> "Romulans" would not have assumed the name "Romulan" until after they
> left Vulcan.
That's been my theory. Since the Romulans are portrayed as isolationist
and xenophobic, it wouldn't seem too out of the realm of possibility that
the common terminology for them is either ours or that perhaps they took
on a set of alias terms to disguise themselves from the Vulcans they left
eons ago and still have no particular desire to reassociate themselves
with. The Vulcans would, of course, know that ages ago a group of Vulcans
disassociated themselves and took off for parts unknown, but not that this
new and unseen race calling themselves "Romulans" is actually their long-
lost cousins. That would be something not discovered until 100 years later
in TOS.
GeneK
The Highlander
Ironwood
> > > Also "Romulan" is most likely a human term anyway. In the native
> > > languages of Romulus and Vulcan I'm sure it's called something else.
> >
> > Rihanha, according to the Romulan(Rihansu)/English dictionary.
>
> Isn't that a non-canon work from Diane Duane?
I prefer not to judge the canonicity of the sources I quote from. Any
statement I attribute to someone else should not be taken as reflecting my
own personal opinion. :)
Otaku
> I'm sure most, if not all, Vulcans know full well what Romulans look
> like. That's too big a thing not to notice. Spock's reaction in
> "Balance of Terror" was no doubt emotional--he was embarrassed (being
> half human, this is possible for him), no doubt because there were all
> those humans on the bridge who are going to demand an explanation...
>
> If this had happened in ST:Enterprise, I doubt T'Pol would have had
> that kind of a reaction. She probably would just have raised an
> eyebrow and that's the end of it.
Well it's /possible/ for any Vulcan to show emotion. Although I admit
Spock being half human probably makes it significantly harder for him to
avoid such things.
The Highlander
Well, the thing is that the Klingon dictionary was written partly as a
result of work for TNG and the Trek movies, it's fairly legit and official.
Diane Duane's series of novels with the Romulan(Rihansu) were an invention
entirely of hers and had nothing to do with Trek as portrayed on the screen.
I don't normally talk about things being canon or not, as I think it a
rather pointless argument, but given the tenuous contact between the works
of Diane Duane and the Trek we see on screen I think that quoting this was a
little bit of a stretch. Just my opinion though.
Ironwood
> > > > > Also "Romulan" is most likely a human term anyway. In the native
> > > > > languages of Romulus and Vulcan I'm sure it's called something
else.
> > > >
> > > "Ironwood" <Iron...@use.net> wrote:
> > > > Rihanha, according to the Romulan(Rihansu)/English dictionary.
> > >
> > "The Highlander" <squireo...@yahoo.comNET> wrote...
> > > Isn't that a non-canon work from Diane Duane?
> >
> > I prefer not to judge the canonicity of the sources I quote from. Any
> > statement I attribute to someone else should not be taken as reflecting
my
> > own personal opinion. :)
>
> Well, the thing is that the Klingon dictionary was written partly as a
> result of work for TNG and the Trek movies, it's fairly legit and
official.
> Diane Duane's series of novels with the Romulan(Rihansu) were an invention
> entirely of hers and had nothing to do with Trek as portrayed on the
screen.
> I don't normally talk about things being canon or not, as I think it a
> rather pointless argument, but given the tenuous contact between the works
> of Diane Duane and the Trek we see on screen I think that quoting this was
a
> little bit of a stretch. Just my opinion though.
That might have been the case if I had stated that the Romulan word for
Romulan was Rihanha, but I didn't. I said that someone else said so. At that
point my disclaimer comes into play. If I say "someone said Archer will be a
30-foot tall electric blue penguin", it's no different than saying "Bakula
says he likes Star Trek".
Captain Red Beard
This is where I think the problem lies:
The canonist may not like this, but sometimes, a single line in a TOS or TNG
episode will paint the Star Trek Universe into a corner. This is where I
like to say, maybe the person uttering the line didn't have the whole story
because of "classified" information. Similar to some of the things we are
now learning about what really happened in eastern Europe over the last 4
decades.
In Shatners latest book, Preserver, he mentions the Vulcan-Romulan wars, and
the subsequent Earth-Romulan war that spawned the Federation. I also go
along with the novel 'Enterprise' because it just feels like a good story.
Canonist will have a lot of heartburn with these things, but I think we
should be open to a lot of changes to what we think we know and allow
Enterprise to show us what really happened.
GeneK
Captain Red Beard <capt_re...@hotmail.com> wrote...
> The canonist may not like this, but sometimes, a single line in a TOS or TNG
> episode will paint the Star Trek Universe into a corner. This is where I
> like to say, maybe the person uttering the line didn't have the whole story
> because of "classified" information. Similar to some of the things we are
> now learning about what really happened in eastern Europe over the last 4
> decades.
I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with this, so long as someone takes the
time along the way to come up with *another* single line, for example, if a
pre-TOS captain and some of his crew discover that Romulans look just like
Vulcans and sends a report in, then receives a reply that orders them not to
breathe a word to anyone. Problem solved. What's annoying is when it's
obvious that the writers have no idea what came before.
GeneK
Captain Red Beard
Precisely the way I think it should happen. See, great minds think alike.
I'll see you at the "Great Minds" meeting on Thursday.
The Highlander
Ah, the difference between hearsay and actual first hand knowledge...
Ironwood
> > > > > Isn't that a non-canon work from Diane Duane?
> > > >
> > > "Ironwood" <Iron...@use.net> wrote:
> > > > I prefer not to judge the canonicity of the sources I quote from.
Any
> > > > statement I attribute to someone else should not be taken as
> > > > reflecting my own personal opinion. :)
> > >
> > "The Highlander" <squireo...@yahoo.comNET> wrote...
> > > Well, the thing is that the Klingon dictionary was written partly as a
> > > result of work for TNG and the Trek movies, it's fairly legit and
> > > official. Diane Duane's series of novels with the Romulan(Rihansu)
were an
> > > invention entirely of hers and had nothing to do with Trek as
portrayed on the
> > > screen. I don't normally talk about things being canon or not, as I
think it a
> > > rather pointless argument, but given the tenuous contact between the
> > > works of Diane Duane and the Trek we see on screen I think that
quoting this
> > > was a little bit of a stretch. Just my opinion though.
> >
> > That might have been the case if I had stated that the Romulan word for
> > Romulan was Rihanha, but I didn't. I said that someone else said so. At
> > that point my disclaimer comes into play. If I say "someone said Archer
will be
> > a 30-foot tall electric blue penguin", it's no different than saying
"Bakula
> > says he likes Star Trek".
>
> Ah, the difference between hearsay and actual first hand knowledge...
No. Either way, I would be quoting someone else. There is no difference.
Captain Red Beard
<Anima...@nothere.com> wrote in message
news:lok8ht89q4suecgkl...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 29 May 2001 22:45:23 GMT, "Captain Red Beard"
> The problem here is it seems you are implying that novels are somehow
> canon. It has already been stated that is not the case. The so called
> vulcan-romulan war has no real basis outside of Shatner's books.
>
> IF you wanted to use books as a reference, then they are really
> screwed because in one book Captain Picard has to deal with the Picard
> from the Mirror Universe Enterprise, which clearly does not exist as
> it was shown in DS9 that the empire went bye bye a long time ago.
>
I'm not the one stuck on canon so that argument is easy to get around.
Besides, there can be more than one mirror universe, there can be, taking a
line from Sagan, millions and millions. Whose to say its the same. See,
not being a canonista makes problems like that disappear like cotton candy
in a rain storm.
GeneK
>
> I'm not the one stuck on canon so that argument is easy to get around.
> Besides, there can be more than one mirror universe, there can be, taking a
> line from Sagan, millions and millions. Whose to say its the same. See,
> not being a canonista makes problems like that disappear like cotton candy
> in a rain storm.
Being one does the same thing. You don't choose between the books,
you ignore them all. :))
GeneK
Captain Red Beard
<Anima...@nothere.com> wrote in message
news:p749htkv143k92iof...@4ax.com...
> For a trek fan that seems rather Herbert of you.
>
>
Sweet reference!
However, a true Herbert would be to tight, man, really into the continuity
and canon thing. Like they wouldn't see whole being fluid, the bending reed
and the egg are truly the un-Herbert thing to be.
And quoting VMS, "I am only an egg."
"Herbert, Herbert, Herbert, Herbert, Herbert, Herbert, Herbert, Herbert,
Herbert, Herbert, Herbert..."
Ted Phillips
federation came about. What caused the building of the federation? When
did it occur? Who was involved? ETC. Being blind, and only getting star
trek books I can download from napsterlike programs, I think this would be a
good book or series.
<Anima...@nothere.com> wrote in message
news:lok8ht89q4suecgkl...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 29 May 2001 22:45:23 GMT, "Captain Red Beard"
>
>
> >This is where I think the problem lies:
> >
> >The canonist may not like this, but sometimes, a single line in a TOS or
TNG
> >episode will paint the Star Trek Universe into a corner. This is where I
> >like to say, maybe the person uttering the line didn't have the whole
story
> >because of "classified" information. Similar to some of the things we
are
> >now learning about what really happened in eastern Europe over the last 4
> >decades.
> >
> >In Shatners latest book, Preserver, he mentions the Vulcan-Romulan wars,
and
> >the subsequent Earth-Romulan war that spawned the Federation. I also go
> >along with the novel 'Enterprise' because it just feels like a good
story.
> >
> >Canonist will have a lot of heartburn with these things, but I think we
> >should be open to a lot of changes to what we think we know and allow
> >Enterprise to show us what really happened.
>
>
>
<<<RIFT>>>
episodes that show what the Romulans look like. The episodes can look just
like the real universe with the exception that pre-federation Earth knows
what Romulans look like.
"Photoman" <tc...@cdphotography.com> wrote in message
news:gWDQ6.16762$%X5.53...@typhoon1.ba-dsg.net...
Mike C.
Captain Red Beard wrote:
> I think we
> should be open to a lot of changes to what we think we know and allow
> Enterprise to show us what really happened.
What "really" happened?
Chuckle.
":^) ®
--
Mike C.
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Williams
Didn't that green-blooded Vulcan, Spock, say that historical information
for Khan's time (1996) was scanty, incomplete?
Heck, "they" could have gotten everything wrong.
How many computer programming errors, Von Daniken-type theorists, and
just plain mistaken assumptions could have entered the data base.
Thus, Spock would not lie, he'd only be using incorrect information.
Thus, Marcus Aurelius could be considered a First Century emperor, and
"Uncle Tom's Cabin" historical fact.
There is no universal agreement among, even, Specialists as to the date
of "Jesus's" birth or death, the fate of Jimmy Hoffa, and, even, the
'reality' of the moon-landing in 1969. what if THAT info should have
survived?
And we have the common "filtering" example of knowledge well displayed
by the technically competent aliens in "Galaxy Quest".
"Let ten thousand speculations bloom!"
Of course, I know who shot president Kennedy...
Mike C. <mi...@artistmike.com> wrote in message
news:3B199F9C...@artistmike.com...
Alan Ashby
As do we all.... it was Kennedy himself from an alternate reality future...
Check out the Red Dwarf episode "Tikka To Ride"
--
Alan Ashby
EvilBill[AGQx]
news:thkhsak...@corp.supernews.com...
> Yeah, like James Tiberius Kirk is a history major.
> Didn't that green-blooded Vulcan, Spock, say that historical
information
> for Khan's time (1996) was scanty, incomplete?
> Heck, "they" could have gotten everything wrong.
> How many computer programming errors, Von Daniken-type theorists, and
> just plain mistaken assumptions could have entered the data base.
> Thus, Spock would not lie, he'd only be using incorrect information.
> Thus, Marcus Aurelius could be considered a First Century emperor, and
> "Uncle Tom's Cabin" historical fact.
> There is no universal agreement among, even, Specialists as to the
date
> of "Jesus's" birth or death, the fate of Jimmy Hoffa, and, even, the
> 'reality' of the moon-landing in 1969. what if THAT info should have
> survived?
> And we have the common "filtering" example of knowledge well displayed
> by the technically competent aliens in "Galaxy Quest".
> "Let ten thousand speculations bloom!"
> Of course, I know who shot president Kennedy...
Yep, the Cancer-Man. <g>
--
* That's gotta hurt!
--
-- EvilBill[AGQx]
E-mail: dev...@agqx-imperium.fsnet.co.uk
ICQ: 37464244 - AIM: EvilBill1782