[VOY] "Scorpion, Part II": The Good, The Bad and The Ugly

[Ashley Edward Miller]

WARNING: Spoilers are irrelevant. The following article contains
information for "Scorpion, Part II".

[spoilers]

[VOY] "Scorpion, Part II": The Good, The Bad and The Ugly

Written by: Brannon Braga & Joe Menosky
Directed by: Winrich Kolbe

A dark, exciting and mostly satisfying wrap-up for Voyager's startling
third-season cliffhanger. Notable for the first appearance of new series
regular Jeri Ryan as Seven of Nine and the potentially permanent
"Borgification" of the USS Voyager.

The Good:

Some have written that my review of "Scorpion, Part I" was surprisingly
flippant for such a serious story. That's probably true. On the other
hand, "Scorpion, Part I" was just that -- the first part of a two-part
tale. Constructive criticism requires that the critic address not only
the creator's intentions, but the value of his approach and the degree to
which the creator achieves his dramatic objectives. Given half of a
story, it is certainly possible to make predictions and pose questions,
but anyone who claims to be able to provide a full assessment of a work
without reviewing the entire narrative is smoking his
critical belt. With that in mind, this review is less an accounting of
"Scorpion, Part II" than it is a critique of "Scorpion" as a whole.

The first question is perhaps the most important, as it sets the standard
against which the story must be judged: what is the creator's intent?
For "Scorpion", its clarity of purpose is both striking and admirable.
Braga and Menosky wrestle here with the issue of individual will vs. the
collective good, and posit forcefully that the essence of one is in fact
the other -- that these two concepts, which seem superficially poles
apart, are in fact one and the same. Indeed, they argue that individual
will is hollow and meaningless outside of the context of a collective
good; conversely, that a collective good has no value without individuals
for whom to provide that good.

This central tension is reflected everywhere: between the Borg and 8472;
between the Borg and the Voyager crew; between Janeway and Chakotay. The
first example paints the issue with the broadest brush. If we can accept
that the Borg have been established a priori as the extreme example of the
collective "good" in a vacuum of individual will, it is not much of a
stretch to view the 8472 as a representation of the opposite extreme. The
Borg (in their own way) seek perfection through the assimilation of all
cultures; in the words of Locutus, they seek "to improve quality of
life". In an odd way, their goal is as sympathetic as it is misguided and
terrifying.

8472, however, seek something quite different: they seek to purge a
"contamination" in order to preserve their own genetic purity. In a
sense, they seek to impose their will on the wider community without the
Borg's pretense of creating a larger, better, more harmonious collective.
They do not seek greatness (or even nobility, as the Borg Queen indicated
in Star Trek: First Contact); instead, they seek only to be left alone.
Forever, and by any means necessary. They are a physical manifestation of
personal arrogance which threatens the explicit and indiscriminate
destruction of all other individuals. They are the reactionary answer to
the Borg's radicalism.

The radicalism of the Borg is set also in contrast to the middle-path
philosophy of the United Federation of Planets, as ably represented by the
crew of the Voyager. Through Seven of Nine, Braga and Menosky provide us
with insight not only into the mind of the Borg, but their perception of
humanity. They see our own "collective" as fractious and inferior,
forever hindered by the clash of ideas and ideals. They condemn our lack
of harmony and our occasional inability to cooperate on even the most
simple tasks. The Borg see humans as idiot savants -- technologically
advanced but culturally retarded.

The other side of the argument is brought out through the consistently
intense conflict and eventual reconciliation of Janeway and Chakotay.
Janeway takes her cue from the 8472, leading her troops with an
intractable, indomitable will. She takes the problems of the crew on her
own shoulders, determined to save them and get them home even if it means
taking them into the heart of a violent conflict in the company of their
most feared enemy. Her confidence borders on arrogance, almost
obsession. If she sees the inherent dangers of her decisions, she fails
to communicate them. Janeway is on a mission, and God help anyone who
gets in her way -- and that includes her First Officer.

For his part, Chakotay sees the peril of his Captain's single-minded
pursuits. In one confrontation after another, he seeks to remind Janeway
of her overall responsbility to the crew: not only to get them home, but
to keep them safe. Chakotay struggles with maintaining his faith in
Kathryn while heeding his own lack of trust in her new allies. Through
that struggle, his effort to re-focus Janeway on the collective good of
the Voyager shatters the cohesion of its leadership. His effort to
maintain harmony and safety push his goals ever-further out of reach.
When ultimately placed in the position of choosing between the orders of
his superior and his own deeply held feelings, he pays lip service to the
former while demonstrating fealty to the latter.

It would be easy to criticize Janeway for her apparent arrogance or
Chakotay for his seeming paranoia. However, neither character's dilemma
is saddled with a one-dimensional motive. Both Janeway and Chakotay have
valid, if opposed points-of-view. Janeway sees her course as the only way
to avoid greater peril down the line; Chakotay sees any attempt to trust
the Borg as doomed to failure, thus bringing about the very future Janeway
is attempting to prevent. That both points-of-view are validated by
events is evidence of thoughtful storytelling -- 8472's proven intention,
motive and capability to eradicate all life in the Milky Way is argument
enough for an alliance with the Borg; the Borg's constant attempts to
subvert the principles of the "alliance" and then to dismiss that alliance
when it suits their purposes bears out Chakotay's mistrust. As a result,
the audience is sympathetic to both sides of the argument and is drawn
more deeply into the war of words between Captain and XO.

When the the two ultimately resolve their differences, it is a defining
moment for both the story and these characters. Yes, serving the
collective good is a noble end, and the will of the individual must be
nurtured, but they do not have to be in opposition. The game is not
zero-sum -- it allows for synergy. Janeway correctly notes that the
diversity of the crew (in its most important sense) is also its greatest
strength, so long as the diversity is directed toward creative action.
When that diversity was allowed to become a division, the ship could have
been lost. Indeed, that realization is what allowed the crew to prepare
for the Borg endgame and prevent Seven of Nine from taking over the ship.

In general, "Scorpion" succeeds marvelously. Beyond the tight scripting
of Braga & Menosky, the "other" creators did their part to deliver on the
promise of the episode. In the case of "Part II", Winrich Kolbe's work as
director is every bit as good as that of David Livingston (who directed
"Part I"). He drew some fine performances from his actors, particularly
Mulgrew and Beltran. Kolbe also maintains a consistent "look and feel"
for the show, as established by Livingston. Richly textured lighting and
use of the sets, as well as tightly controlled storytelling work to give
"Scorpion" an epic, almost cinematic feel.

Contributing to that epic feel are the amazing special effects from
Foundation Imaging. I thought that the destruction of the Borg planet in
the previous episode would be impossible to top, but the expulsion of the
Borg drones into space damn near makes a liar of me. The battle scenes
are equally eye-popping, especially the key conflict in "fluidic space".
(Neat idea, that -- suddenly, the streamlined, tail-finned 8472 bio-ships
seem as functional as they are cool). You can also color me in as a big
fan of the Borg modifications to Voyager. They are certainly distinctive,
and create a sense that something *really happened* in this episode. By
the look of things in the preview for next week, they are here to stay.

Jay Chattaway's musical score is another big plus toward the elevation of
"Scorpion" to a near-cinematic level. I've been a fan of Chattaway since
he debuted with TNG's "Tin Man", and he certainly delivers here. Big,
powerful and almost operatic, the music provides exacting point and
counter-point to the flow of the story.

Finally, I was very impressed with the presentation of the Borg in these
two episodes. While some fans feared that the introduction of a "more
powerful" species would only serve to dilute the Borg menace, nothing
could be further from the truth. Seven of Nine (played with appropriate
detached contempt by Jeri Ryan) reminds us why we should fear the Borg in
the first place -- they are not only powerful, they are relentlessly
single-minded in the pursuit of their goals. They view themselves as
superior to all other life forms, a view that approaches a messiah
complex. That such Borg hubris (what a thought!) nearly results in the
destruction of all life makes them seem all the more dangerous.

The Bad:

At the end of "Scorpion, Part I", there were two primary issues which I
felt were key to the overall success of the two-parter. The first issue
revolved around what I called Janeway's game of "intergalactic chicken"
with the Borg. My fear was that anything less than total commitment on
her part to the course she chose would irrevocably weaken the character
and sink the story. As indicated above, that's not at all what happened.

The second major issue was the motive of the 8472 and the scope of their
threat. On one hand, their motive was convincingly established. In
addition, their desire to "protect" their "genetic integrity" was more
than adequately chilling. However, there were several things about 8472
which I simply did not get. First, why did Kes feel that the 8472 were
telepathically "watching" Voyager? These events were initially
frightening, if for no other reason than the potential for what *could*
happen. Unfortunately, this particular ball was unceremoniously dropped,
as if it were there only to set up Kes' later telepathic communication
with this species. Second, if the 8472 really were watching Voyager, why
were they unable to anticipate the Borg/Starfleet strategy? If they could
only watch "through" a telepath like Kes, why even bother? The girl
barely leaves sickbay; terrorizing her doesn't seem to have much of a
payoff.

I was also bothered by the resolution of Harry's illness. The episode
never really establishes what was happening to the hapless ensign, outside
of the fact that the alien cells were taking over his body. Big deal.
Again, what could have been a truly frightening plot turn fizzled out.
It's not enough to simply say that the 8472 want to eat out our flesh or
even to show it; the audience must be made to understand what this means.
Otherwise, Harry's problems (like those of Kes) are nothing more than plot
conveniences which set-up the notion that the Borg/Starfleet weapons will
be effective against the 8472. In short, although the 8472 aren't exactly
moustache-twirlers, some of the plot points dealing with them come off as
empty manipulation of the story to the storytellers' advantage.

The Ugly:

Looks like Harry is the winner again with a repeat performance of Jungle
Rot from Hell (TM). One more week of this and he gets the hat trick.

My Score:

All told, an excellent entry in the series and the Trek canon. Tightly
written, fast-paced and well-performed, "Scorpion" is a success on almost
every level. As an action show, it is Voyager's best outing, and is
certainly up there as a philosophical piece. In addition, the story is
firmly grounded in the emotions and actions of the characters. Janeway
finally establishes both her identity as Captain and her relationship with
Chakotay; Chakotay takes command and shows us what he's got ("I don't want
to hear what we can't do!", he thunders at Torres. The reviewer smiles).
"Scorpion" even introduces a new character without the awkwardness of the
"getting to know you" phase. We already know this one -- she is Borg, and
now she is *us*. How this develops is going to be a lot of fun to watch.
Finally, the episode is marred only by some clumsily handled plot-points
with respect to Species 8472. They make a formidable adversary to be
sure, but the episode sells them surprisingly short.

SCORPION, PART II: ***1/2 (out of four)

NEXT WEEK:

Na-na, na-na na-na, hey-hey-hey, good-bye...

"[Humans] are erratic, conflicted, disorganized. Every decision is
debated, every action questioned, every individual entitled to their own
small opinion. You lack harmony, cohesion, greatness. It will be your
undoing."

-- Seven of Nine, not mincing any words.

©1997 Ashley Edward Miller. All rights reserved, and most of the lefts too.

[Allen Kim]

An excellent review, Ashley. Thanks.

--
Allen Kim
alle...@scic.intel.com

[Plain and Simple Cronan]

Ashley Edward Miller <us01...@mindspring.com> wrote
<<snipped>>

> A dark, exciting and mostly satisfying wrap-up for Voyager's startling
> third-season cliffhanger. Notable for the first appearance of new series
> regular Jeri Ryan as Seven of Nine and the potentially permanent
> "Borgification" of the USS Voyager.

I was just pleased pink that permanent T&A character had been added. Not to
mention the complete inconsistency as far as the Borg retrieving their
technology. A light, boring and mostly wretch inducing episode.

> The Good:
<<snipped>>

> The first question is perhaps the most important, as it sets the standard
> against which the story must be judged: what is the creator's intent?

To force us to suffer through character scenes which served as filler for
the unimpressive Fx.

> For "Scorpion", its clarity of purpose is both striking and admirable.

The purpose, if such an animal truly exists in the pig pen that is Voyager,
was apparently to increase ratings by using the same "dramatic techniques"
pioneered by ID4 and movies of that type.

> Braga and Menosky wrestle here with the issue of individual will vs. the
> collective good, and posit forcefully that the essence of one is in fact
> the other -- that these two concepts, which seem superficially poles
> apart, are in fact one and the same.

Really? That would explain alot. The wrestling I mean. Because whatever it
is they had to say they didn't say it very well,

Indeed, they argue that individual
> will is hollow and meaningless outside of the context of a collective
> good; conversely, that a collective good has no value without individuals
> for whom to provide that good.

Excuse me, where in did you see this?

> This central tension is reflected everywhere: between the Borg and 8472;

Where no tension should exist after Voyager enters the fray?

> between the Borg and the Voyager crew;

Again why was their tension? There is no tension between a man with a gun
and a 2 yearold child even if the child is holding a nuclear trigger the
man should be able to take it away.

> between Janeway and Chakotay.

This set made no sense whatsoever. Both seemed out of what little character
they have all the while arguing for no apparent reason.

The
> first example paints the issue with the broadest brush. If we can accept
> that the Borg have been established a priori as the extreme example of
the
> collective "good" in a vacuum of individual will, it is not much of a
> stretch to view the 8472 as a representation of the opposite extreme.

How exactly does 8472 represent the opposite extreme of the collective(that
being the ulltimate individuals)?

The
> Borg (in their own way) seek perfection through the assimilation of all
> cultures; in the words of Locutus, they seek "to improve quality of
> life". In an odd way, their goal is as sympathetic as it is misguided
and
> terrifying.

Well it was before this episode. We repeatedly see that they now seem to
believe differently. They use assimilation as a threat apparently having
losing the belief that they are improving life. 7 of 9 doesn't act, look,
or believe anything a Borg should.

> 8472, however, seek something quite different: they seek to purge a
> "contamination" in order to preserve their own genetic purity.

And this is the opposite of the Borg how? Their methods may be opposite of
the Borg but their goal is the same. To acheive a purification of all
species.

In a
> sense, they seek to impose their will on the wider community without the
> Borg's pretense of creating a larger, better, more harmonious collective.

Which seems to no longer be the Borg's goal.

> They do not seek greatness (or even nobility, as the Borg Queen indicated
> in Star Trek: First Contact); instead, they seek only to be left alone.

Near as I can tell they believe, very similar to the Borg, they are already
perfect and others are not so. They don't wish to be left alone in their
space. They wish to be left alone in your space as well.

> Forever, and by any means necessary. They are a physical manifestation
of
> personal arrogance which threatens the explicit and indiscriminate
> destruction of all other individuals. They are the reactionary answer to
> the Borg's radicalism.

Not so. They are the Borg without assimilation. They believe they do not
need another species to ,"add to their own perfection." They have already
acheived and others are unworthy to join up.

> The radicalism of the Borg is set also in contrast to the middle-path
> philosophy of the United Federation of Planets, as ably represented by
the
> crew of the Voyager.

The Federation, as was said by Micheal Eddington, is far worse than the
Borg in many repsects.

Through Seven of Nine, Braga and Menosky provide us
> with insight not only into the mind of the Borg, but their perception of
> humanity.

Throught seven of nine they provide us with another distraction from the
story. She does not behave Borg like at all. Even the Borg Queen was more
so.

They see our own "collective" as fractious and inferior,
> forever hindered by the clash of ideas and ideals. They condemn our lack
> of harmony and our occasional inability to cooperate on even the most
> simple tasks. The Borg see humans as idiot savants -- technologically
> advanced but culturally retarded.

Humans in ST are nothing like advanced compared to the Borg. Or at least
they weren't until this episode castrated the Borg in order to make Janeway
and compant look good. In order for the stroy to progress JAneway had to
get a leg up on the Borg. The used to attain this leg up is completely
ridiculous in and of itself leading to further contrivances(like 7 of 9).

> The other side of the argument is brought out through the consistently
> intense conflict and eventual reconciliation of Janeway and Chakotay.

Which seemed ridiculous and out of place in a combat situation.

> Janeway takes her cue from the 8472, leading her troops with an
> intractable, indomitable will.

Is that what you would call it? It seems to me she lead with all the will
of a confused puppy: constantly begging Chakotay for his support, going to
the computer for advice and eventually overriding all other opinions ,
valid or not.

She takes the problems of the crew on her
> own shoulders, determined to save them and get them home even if it means
> taking them into the heart of a violent conflict in the company of their
> most feared enemy.

They can't be that feared. Voyager is a lone ship in the D quad without
support and she is willing to do this BEFORE she has any leverage? A move
similar to sticking your head in a wood chipper turing on the switch.

Her confidence borders on arrogance, almost
> obsession.

This I will agree with. IT is also extremely out of character.

If she sees the inherent dangers of her decisions, she fails
> to communicate them. Janeway is on a mission, and God help anyone who
> gets in her way -- and that includes her First Officer.

......

<<snipped>>

> In general, "Scorpion" succeeds marvelously. Beyond the tight scripting
> of Braga & Menosky, the "other" creators did their part to deliver on the
> promise of the episode. In the case of "Part II", Winrich Kolbe's work
as
> director is every bit as good as that of David Livingston (who directed
> "Part I").

This might account for the strange differences in style between the two
causing further incoherence to an already muddled screenplay

He drew some fine performances from his actors, particularly
> Mulgrew and Beltran.

Mulgrew's peformance was strangely contradictory: one minute she was on the
verge of tears begging Chakotay to follow her without question and the next
she is telling him to, like it or lump it.

Kolbe also maintains a consistent "look and feel"
> for the show, as established by Livingston. Richly textured lighting and
> use of the sets, as well as tightly controlled storytelling work to give
> "Scorpion" an epic, almost cinematic feel.

If you consider Independance day " epic cinema" then I would I agree.

> Contributing to that epic feel are the amazing special effects from
> Foundation Imaging.

Looked pretty fake to me. Particularly the explosions.

I thought that the destruction of the Borg planet in
> the previous episode would be impossible to top, but the expulsion of the
> Borg drones into space damn near makes a liar of me.

I have seen much better during TOS. Expensive Fx do not impress me. Fx the
tightly interwoven with the story do.

The battle scenes
> are equally eye-popping, especially the key conflict in "fluidic space".

I laughed out loud for a quite a while when they first mentioned that
concept. After they explain it and show us what it looks I seriously
doubted ships and beings born of such a universe would be able to exist in
ours ley alone show clear dominance.

> (Neat idea, that -- suddenly, the streamlined, tail-finned 8472 bio-ships
> seem as functional as they are cool).

Streamlined? The stealth bomber is more streamlined.

You can also color me in as a big
> fan of the Borg modifications to Voyager. They are certainly
distinctive,
> and create a sense that something *really happened* in this episode. By
> the look of things in the preview for next week, they are here to stay.

Funny that. one must wonder why the Borg would allow their technology to
stay on an alien ship when they won't even let their drones do that.

> Jay Chattaway's musical score is another big plus toward the elevation of
> "Scorpion" to a near-cinematic level. I've been a fan of Chattaway since
> he debuted with TNG's "Tin Man", and he certainly delivers here. Big,
> powerful and almost operatic, the music provides exacting point and
> counter-point to the flow of the story.

The music is big all right. REALLY big. Unfortunately it is not cinematic.
IF you want hear good music go see BoBW. There hear music that adds to the
action. It enhances the action. The music in Scorpian is completely the
opposite. IT is loud and aimless never fitting in with what is going on on
screen. IT always seems to follow the big action to the cresendo never
leading to it or helping it along.

> Finally, I was very impressed with the presentation of the Borg in these
> two episodes.

I was rather upset. it was completely ridiculous for numerous reasons.

While some fans feared that the introduction of a "more
> powerful" species would only serve to dilute the Borg menace, nothing
> could be further from the truth.

Really? Someone else wrote a little list of things of what was wrong. Here
are the most valid:
"This episode claims that the Borg only learn through assimilation.
That's obviously not even remotely true. In "Q-Who" the Borg drones
quickly adapted to the phaser weapons and shields of the Enterprise
without assimilating anything. The Borg corner the Enterprise in a
nebula during "Best of Both Worlds" and devise a method of driving the
ship out of hiding. Those two episodes suggest that the Borg's greatest
strength is that they can never be defeated the same way twice; they
devise a counter-measure after encountering each form of attack. Even a
Borg defeat is a Borg victory and this made them a relentless and
ever-growing enemy. They do all this without assimilating anything.
In these episodes more than three-hundred Borg cubes are destroyed by
what appears to be the same energy beam. And the Borg have had over a
dozen previous encounters with the same aliens. Why are the Borg not
adapting to the beam? They seem helpless to do anything in this
episode."

""Scorpion I" shows a Borg drone continuously trying to inject the
alien bioship with the Borg nanites. Despite its failure, the drone
keeps trying as if caught in some kind of loop. The scene is an
effective portrayal of the Borg's autonomic helplessness, but it's
unlikely. The Borg have never attempted hopeless tasks before. When
the Borg drone called Hugh was captured in the episode "I, Borg" he
didn't keep walking into the brig's force field. He studied it and then
left to observe the other aspects of the Brig. Locutis immediatly
adapted to his new location on the Enterprise in "Best of Both Worlds."
The Borg are aware of their environment and can adapt to it. Yet this
Borg can't do that."

"The concept of negotiating with the Borg is flawed but, then again,
so is the process. Janeway plans to safeguard the information by having
the Doctor hold onto it, but she never tells the Borg this. They have
no reason to believe that she is capable of erasing the solution.
Furthermore, the crew is aware of the plan, even if not the details.
Would the Borg remain helpless even if they obtained the basics of the
plan from Janeway's mind? For that matter, did the Borg not realize
what they were looking at in the computer simulation Janeway sent to
them and constantly refers to? The very fact that the Borg didn't think
of the answer in the first place is amazing; that they can't recognize
the solution in a visual demonstration is simply beyond belief,
especially since the episode "I, Borg" suggested that one the Borg's
strengths is their ability to process and analyze visual images."

There are more. These are just the barest sample of what seemed a
castration of the Borg.

Seven of Nine (played with appropriate
> detached contempt by Jeri Ryan) reminds us why we should fear the Borg in
> the first place -- they are not only powerful, they are relentlessly
> single-minded in the pursuit of their goals.

One cannot be detached and filled with contempt at the same time. She was
one emotional drone. She showed the very unBorglike trait of pride in her
status She shows disgust at the bickering humans, even mroe un Borglike.
She acts with arrogance toward other species. This is not at all the way
the Borg behave
in other episodes. As some one else said she behaved like an angry Klingon
or Romulan not a Borg.

They view themselves as
> superior to all other life forms, a view that approaches a messiah
> complex.

They view their current state as perfection. All lifeforms are equal, Once
assimilated

That such Borg hubris (what a thought!) nearly results in the
> destruction of all life makes them seem all the more dangerous.

How exactly did you get this ?

>
<<snipped>>

> My Score:
>
> All told, an excellent entry in the series and the Trek canon.

All tolda complete revision (and I don't mean that in a good way) of Trek
canon with nary a good explanation.

Tightly
> written, fast-paced and well-performed, "Scorpion" is a success on almost
> every level.

Loosely written, internally inconsistent with Baywatch level performances
Scorpion manages to snatch boredom from the jaws of potential interest.

As an action show, it is Voyager's best outing, and is
> certainly up there as a philosophical piece.

You are attriuting things to this episode that are simply not there .

In addition, the story is
> firmly grounded in the emotions and actions of the characters.

Which are all completely out of whack.

Janeway
> finally establishes both her identity as Captain and her relationship
with
> Chakotay;

Which is in on scene completely dominance over him and in the next complete
subervience to his belief in her.

Chakotay takes command and shows us what he's got ("I don't want
> to hear what we can't do!", he thunders at Torres. The reviewer smiles).

I thought that a groan inducing experience myself.

> "Scorpion" even introduces a new character without the awkwardness of the
> "getting to know you" phase.

Why bother? She is there for T&A not character interaction.

We already know this one -- she is Borg, and
> now she is *us*. How this develops is going to be a lot of fun to watch.

Well if they remove the silicone along with the silicon we might be able to
believe she is fully human.

> Finally, the episode is marred only by some clumsily handled plot-points
> with respect to Species 8472. They make a formidable adversary to be
> sure, but the episode sells them surprisingly short.

What it does is show them to be as inconsistant as the episode itself.

> SCORPION, PART II: ***1/2 (out of four)

1/10^24 (out of 12 billion nine hundred and six.)

<<snipped>>

> "[Humans] are erratic, conflicted, disorganized. Every decision is
> debated, every action questioned, every individual entitled to their own
> small opinion. You lack harmony, cohesion, greatness. It will be your
> undoing."
>
> -- Seven of Nine, not mincing any words.

Proving that the story castrated the Borg.

[Lloyd James]

<snip>

Thanks for another excellent, insightful review. More importantly,
thanks for caring about more than Borg defensive capabilities,
Voyager's battle damage, various time inconsistencies, or Seven of
Nine's breasts.

dj

[Hieronymus Bosch]

Such brilliant analysis Conan O'Whinin' I speak for everyone when I say
we're glad you deign to discuss Star Trek Voyager with us.

r.

>
> I was just pleased pink that permanent T&A character had been added. Not
to
> mention the complete inconsistency as far as the Borg retrieving their
> technology. A light, boring and mostly wretch inducing episode.

She was disconnected. Why wasn't the cube in Unity picked up? The Borg
didn't know where to find it.

> To force us to suffer through character scenes which served as filler for
> the unimpressive Fx.

Perhaps you could enlighten us with an example of good TV FX, or example
while the character scenes were bad.

>

> The purpose, if such an animal truly exists in the pig pen that is
Voyager,
> was apparently to increase ratings by using the same "dramatic
techniques"
> pioneered by ID4 and movies of that type.

If true, then it's amazing that the show in less time and with a less
dramatic subject matter managed to be far more compelx and character driven
than ID4 ever was.

>

>
> Really? That would explain alot. The wrestling I mean. Because whatever
it
> is they had to say they didn't say it very well,

No, it was there. Most authors don't suggest the technique of telegraphing
the message in little white letters at the bottom of the screen because
that seems forced.

>
>
> Excuse me, where in did you see this?

Those little things like havin to work together to accomplish the goal fo
example - cheesy, but true.

>
>
>
> Again why was their tension? There is no tension between a man with a gun
> and a 2 yearold child even if the child is holding a nuclear trigger the
> man should be able to take it away.

Poor analogy. Voyager has its own investigative capabilities and is
independent on its own. Perhaps you would have an argument if you would
remove that bias which automatically makes you view Voayger in the smallest
terms you can think of.

The tension arose because of the deal. Most two year old children aren't
up to wielding deals with their parents, nuclear weapons or not.

>
>
> This set made no sense whatsoever. Both seemed out of what little
character
> they have all the while arguing for no apparent reason.

You may have missed it, but there was a little issue called the "deal with
the Borg." Janeway wanted to get home, but Chakotay had dealt with the
Borg before and didn't trust them.

>
> Well it was before this episode. We repeatedly see that they now seem to
> believe differently. They use assimilation as a threat apparently having
> losing the belief that they are improving life.

I gues you're forgetting that episode that reran a week back called
"Unity."

7 of 9 doesn't act, look,
> or believe anything a Borg should.

Except for the Borg Queen, who was arrogant, or Locutus, who was arrogant.
Remember, "Klingon. Kill by breaking third verterbrae. Death is
instaneous. You will be assimilated blah blah."

> And this is the opposite of the Borg how? Their methods may be opposite
of
> the Borg but their goal is the same. To acheive a purification of all
> species.

The Borg modify, 8472 exterminates. I agree that the goal is the same but
the rationale is very very different, as the reviewer points out.

>
>
> Near as I can tell they believe, very similar to the Borg, they are
already
> perfect and others are not so. They don't wish to be left alone in their
> space. They wish to be left alone in your space as well.

The Borg aren't xenophobic; that was his point.

>
>
> Not so. They are the Borg without assimilation. They believe they do not
> need another species to ,"add to their own perfection." They have already
> acheived and others are unworthy to join up.

Thus that is a deprature from the Borg. Fascism and Communism is a similar
parallel. Germany was already perfect, but Communism wanted to expand to
free the proletariat everywhere. You do concede that Nazism and
Commmunism, though very similar in some ways, are quite different in the
final analysis, don't you?

>
>
> The Federation, as was said by Micheal Eddington, is far worse than the
> Borg in many repsects.

That's a non sequitur. Voyager was caught in the middle of the situation.
Democracy has some the same flaws and pluses of both Fascism and Communism.
The Federation last tiem I checked was a democracy in the modern
definition of the word.

>
> Throught seven of nine they provide us with another distraction from the
> story. She does not behave Borg like at all. Even the Borg Queen was more
> so.

As I've pointed out, all the Borg "individuals" from Locutus to the Queen
are very similar.

> Humans in ST are nothing like advanced compared to the Borg. Or at least
> they weren't until this episode castrated the Borg in order to make
Janeway
> and compant look good.

Funny. A lot of people didn't think Janeway was competent at all.

In order for the stroy to progress JAneway had to
> get a leg up on the Borg. The used to attain this leg up is completely
> ridiculous in and of itself leading to further contrivances(like 7 of 9).

The Borg has always been contrived. The Enterprise was able to catch up
with the cube in BoBW. That type of thing though does not detract from the
more important issue, Borg philosophy.

>
> Is that what you would call it? It seems to me she lead with all the will
> of a confused puppy: constantly begging Chakotay for his support, going
to
> the computer for advice and eventually overriding all other opinions ,
> valid or not.

And in the end, she made her decision of Chakotay's objections. Beleive it
or not people can have their doubts at first, but once Janeway made up her
mind she did stick to it.

>
>
> They can't be that feared. Voyager is a lone ship in the D quad without
> support and she is willing to do this BEFORE she has any leverage? A move
> similar to sticking your head in a wood chipper turing on the switch.

That didn't happen so I don't see your point. She only intervened whe nshe
had leverage.

>
> Her confidence borders on arrogance, almost
> > obsession.
>
> This I will agree with. IT is also extremely out of character.

I'm glad you qualified that. Janeway has alwys had a mother hen complex
and it applies here.

>

>
> >
> This might account for the strange differences in style between the two
> causing further incoherence to an already muddled screenplay

That or maybe the fact they were filmed at seperate times. I'm not sure
similar directing styles over a two-parter is actual relevant to anything.

>
> Mulgrew's peformance was strangely contradictory: one minute she was on
the
> verge of tears begging Chakotay to follow her without question and the
next
> she is telling him to, like it or lump it.

Heaven forbid she can be a complex, erratic human being.

>
>
> If you consider Independance day " epic cinema" then I would I agree.

ID4 may not have been a good movi but it was epic.

>
> Looked pretty fake to me. Particularly the explosions.

Well they looked good to me. Particularly the explosions.

>
>
> I have seen much better during TOS. Expensive Fx do not impress me. Fx
the
> tightly interwoven with the story do.

Yeah, nothin' beats those paper meche rocks. Sorry, but the FX did
intergrate into the story well in most places. Ejecting the Borg for
example had a point. You seem to be saying the show was bad because it had
explosions. Funny, I see you defending SW all the time...

>
> I laughed out loud for a quite a while when they first mentioned that
> concept. After they explain it and show us what it looks I seriously
> doubted ships and beings born of such a universe would be able to exist
in
> ours ley alone show clear dominance.

Well that's science fiction for you.

>
> Streamlined? The stealth bomber is more streamlined.

It is streamlined, especially that new fighter.

>
> > Funny that. one must wonder why the Borg would allow their technology
to
> stay on an alien ship when they won't even let their drones do that.

At this point the Borg are not in a position to retrieve the technology.

>
>
> > Finally, I was very impressed with the presentation of the Borg in
these
> > two episodes.

> Really? Someone else wrote a little list of things of what was wrong.

Here
> are the most valid:
> "This episode claims that the Borg only learn through assimilation.
> That's obviously not even remotely true. In "Q-Who" the Borg drones
> quickly adapted to the phaser weapons and shields of the Enterprise
> without assimilating anything. The Borg corner the Enterprise in a
> nebula during "Best of Both Worlds" and devise a method of driving the
> ship out of hiding. Those two episodes suggest that the Borg's greatest
> strength is that they can never be defeated the same way twice; they
> devise a counter-measure after encountering each form of attack. Even a
> Borg defeat is a Borg victory and this made them a relentless and
> ever-growing enemy. They do all this without assimilating anything.

None of this relevant however, since it required a biological sample to
deivse a weapon for 8472 and only Kim had it. Note the cube also
sacrificed itself to save Vger, something it did without assimilating
anything. Note that it tried t otake advantage of Janeway by linihng her.
Or how Seven commandeered Vger. Etc.

> In these episodes more than three-hundred Borg cubes are destroyed by
> what appears to be the same energy beam. And the Borg have had over a
> dozen previous encounters with the same aliens. Why are the Borg not
> adapting to the beam? They seem helpless to do anything in this
> episode."

The beam is magic and gets thorigh shields. I don't know It is a powerfu
lweapon - that is the point.

>
> ""Scorpion I" shows a Borg drone continuously trying to inject the
> alien bioship with the Borg nanites. Despite its failure, the drone
> keeps trying as if caught in some kind of loop. The scene is an
> effective portrayal of the Borg's autonomic helplessness, but it's
> unlikely. The Borg have never attempted hopeless tasks before. When
> the Borg drone called Hugh was captured in the episode "I, Borg" he
> didn't keep walking into the brig's force field. He studied it and then
> left to observe the other aspects of the Brig. Locutis immediatly
> adapted to his new location on the Enterprise in "Best of Both Worlds."
> The Borg are aware of their environment and can adapt to it. Yet this
> Borg can't do that."

That Borg also was damaged in a battle. It also ran away when it detected
the alien coming. Perhaps it was trying different means of assimilating.
The point was, the Borg were helpless.

>
> "The concept of negotiating with the Borg is flawed but, then again,
> so is the process. Janeway plans to safeguard the information by having
> the Doctor hold onto it, but she never tells the Borg this. They have
> no reason to believe that she is capable of erasing the solution.
> Furthermore, the crew is aware of the plan, even if not the details.
> Would the Borg remain helpless even if they obtained the basics of the
> plan from Janeway's mind? For that matter, did the Borg not realize
> what they were looking at in the computer simulation Janeway sent to
> them and constantly refers to? The very fact that the Borg didn't think
> of the answer in the first place is amazing; that they can't recognize
> the solution in a visual demonstration is simply beyond belief,
> especially since the episode "I, Borg" suggested that one the Borg's
> strengths is their ability to process and analyze visual images."

I agree that they could have hinted a bit more than they did, but that
doesn't override the fact that only Voyager had the specific information on
the nanoprobes and 8472 to construct the weapon.

>
>
>
>
> One cannot be detached and filled with contempt at the same time. She was
> one emotional drone. She showed the very unBorglike trait of pride in
her
> status She shows disgust at the bickering humans, even mroe un Borglike.
> She acts with arrogance toward other species. This is not at all the way
> the Borg behave
> in other episodes. As some one else said she behaved like an angry
Klingon
> or Romulan not a Borg.

She was a spokeperson, and conveyed the arrogance Locutus displayed.

>
>

>

[Arthur Lipscomb]

Ashley Edward Miller wrote:

> WARNING: Spoilers are irrelevant. The following article contains
> information for "Scorpion, Part II".
>
> [spoilers]

> First, why did Kes feel that the 8472 were

> telepathically "watching" Voyager? These events were initially
> frightening, if for no other reason than the potential for what *could*
> happen. Unfortunately, this particular ball was unceremoniously dropped,
> as if it were there only to set up Kes' later telepathic communication
> with this species. Second, if the 8472 really were watching Voyager, why
> were they unable to anticipate the Borg/Starfleet strategy? If they could
> only watch "through" a telepath like Kes, why even bother? The girl
> barely leaves sickbay; terrorizing her doesn't seem to have much of a
> payoff.

Assuming what you said is correct, why shouldn't the Aliens watch through Kes?
They can't control where she goes on the ship, but it did pay off nevertheless.
Through Kes, they learned about the Voyager/Borg alliance, and took steps to
stop it. I also don't think it was dropped, it was referred to throughout the
episode, and at the end they tried to negotiate a truce through Kes, but the
aliens refused.

Arthur

[Eric van Bezooijen]

In article <01bcbbf7$3fa622e0$28e245cf@default>,

Plain and Simple Cronan <*REMOVE*cronan@*TO*dittosrush.com*REPLY*> wrote:
>
>
>Ashley Edward Miller <us01...@mindspring.com> wrote
><<snipped>>

[ lossy compression ]

>Really? Someone else wrote a little list of things of what was wrong. Here
>are the most valid:
> "This episode claims that the Borg only learn through assimilation.
>That's obviously not even remotely true. In "Q-Who" the Borg drones
>quickly adapted to the phaser weapons and shields of the Enterprise
>without assimilating anything. The Borg corner the Enterprise in a
>nebula during "Best of Both Worlds" and devise a method of driving the
>ship out of hiding. Those two episodes suggest that the Borg's greatest
>strength is that they can never be defeated the same way twice; they
>devise a counter-measure after encountering each form of attack. Even a
>Borg defeat is a Borg victory and this made them a relentless and
>ever-growing enemy. They do all this without assimilating anything.

I thought they beamed over a borg who started scanning the enterprise. After
they analysed the data, they stated that the enterprise's defenses were too
weak to withstand the borg. Perhaps my memory is lapsing here, but it seems
like they assimilated quite a bit before they started slicing & dicing the
enterprise.

> In these episodes more than three-hundred Borg cubes are destroyed by
>what appears to be the same energy beam. And the Borg have had over a
>dozen previous encounters with the same aliens. Why are the Borg not
>adapting to the beam? They seem helpless to do anything in this
>episode."

Obviously, the borg never got close enough to figure out how to counteract
the beam, and by the time a cube analysed it, it was fried.

> "The concept of negotiating with the Borg is flawed but, then again,
>so is the process. Janeway plans to safeguard the information by having
>the Doctor hold onto it, but she never tells the Borg this. They have
>no reason to believe that she is capable of erasing the solution.
>Furthermore, the crew is aware of the plan, even if not the details.
>Would the Borg remain helpless even if they obtained the basics of the
>plan from Janeway's mind? For that matter, did the Borg not realize
>what they were looking at in the computer simulation Janeway sent to
>them and constantly refers to? The very fact that the Borg didn't think
>of the answer in the first place is amazing; that they can't recognize
>the solution in a visual demonstration is simply beyond belief,
>especially since the episode "I, Borg" suggested that one the Borg's
>strengths is their ability to process and analyze visual images."

Janeway clearly stated "if you try to assimilate us we will destroy the
information". And the rest of the episode clearly showed how they were
willing to make any sacrifice to get the information. But it does seem
weak that the borg never figured it out. However, you've got to write
some kind of story, and ST, like the windows operating system, is now
so complex and riddled with inconsistencies and legacy stuff, that it's
pretty hard to write something using it and not make a mess of things :)

-Eric
--
Eric van Bezooijen er...@activesw.com http://www.activesw.com/~eric
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that
cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong
goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair."-D Adams

[Plain and Simple Cronan]

Eric van Bezooijen <er...@godzilla.berkeley.edu> wrote

> I thought they beamed over a borg who started scanning the enterprise.
After
> they analysed the data, they stated that the enterprise's defenses were
too
> weak to withstand the borg. Perhaps my memory is lapsing here, but it
seems
> like they assimilated quite a bit before they started slicing & dicing
the
> enterprise.

Your memeory is lapsing indeed. The Borg themselves say, and I quote," We
have *analyzed* your defensive capabilites and have determined them..."
This is not assimilation. This is the type of analysis JAneway claimed they
could not perform.

> Obviously, the borg never got close enough to figure out how to
counteract
> the beam, and by the time a cube analysed it, it was fried.

Tell me them: how did they learn to counteract the various new weapons of
the fleet in FC?

> Janeway clearly stated "if you try to assimilate us we will destroy the
> information".

They had no reason to believe she could. They had a bigger, more powerful
ship. If they beamed 500 drones over they could have easily taken the
ship. never once were they informed that the holodochad the information.

And the rest of the episode clearly showed how they were
> willing to make any sacrifice to get the information.

Which furthers the idiocy forced upon the Borg.

But it does seem
> weak that the borg never figured it out. However, you've got to write
> some kind of story, and ST, like the windows operating system, is now
> so complex and riddled with inconsistencies and legacy stuff, that it's
> pretty hard to write something using it and not make a mess of things :)

That is a ridiculous excuse for poor writing.

[Plain and Simple Cronan]

Hieronymus Bosch <pe...@rhodes.edu> wrote

> Such brilliant analysis Conan O'Whinin' I speak for everyone when I say
> we're glad you deign to discuss Star Trek Voyager with us.

Glad to hear it. Considering the you are my favorites groups of boobs I am
proud to have the dubious distinction of being your messiah.

<<snipped>>

> Perhaps you could enlighten us with an example of good TV FX,

B5 "Severed Dreams"(this years Hugo winner). A battles of epic proportions
with human actions and believable drama.

or example
> while the character scenes were bad.

Okay. I quote another reviewer now because I don't feel like rephrasing it:

"The Janeway/Chakotay stuff is the biggie here, but there are other
issues. As the replacement of Kes with Seven of Nine shows, the
writers are more interested with bringing in *new* characters than in
fixing the ones they already have -- putting a new addition on the
house, rather than taking care of that nasty termite problem.

The Da Vinci character is a case in point. John Rhys-Davies is a
terrific actor, and I really enjoy watching him work (although after
his roles in _Sliders_ and _Voyager_ I think he should really get a
new agent), but he was introduced for no reason other than to give
Janeway a playmate and confidant. Am I the only person thinking
"Tuvok?" Way back when, Tuvok was stated to be Janeway's trusted
friend and advisor; whatever happened to *that?* (I'll tell you; TPTB
decided that a big expensive standing set would juice the ratings.
*shakes head*) Tuvok really needs something to do; as Security Chief
of Voyager he bloody well should have had a major, major say in the
decision that Janeway and Chakotay wrangled over, and to have Janeway
take her inner thoughts to a holodeck character instead of him is a
waste of money and Tim Russ, not to mention its dealing of another
blow to the credibility of Janeway."

> If true, then it's amazing that the show in less time and with a less
> dramatic subject matter managed to be far more compelx and character
driven
> than ID4 ever was.

ROFLMAO!! Are you nuts? What characters? You must first have a character
before you can be driven by one.

> No, it was there. Most authors don't suggest the technique of
telegraphing
> the message in little white letters at the bottom of the screen because
> that seems forced.

They might as well because their message was hammered home with a
sledgehammer, "MORE IS BETTER."

> Those little things like havin to work together to accomplish the goal fo
> example - cheesy, but true.

What goal? There was no definable goal that was even slightly realistic.
Getting safely through Borg space? Could have been acheived at Transwarp in
a couple of seconds. Defeating 8472? Why? They weren't a threat. They got
four direct hits on VOyager and the ship wasn't even scratched.

> Poor analogy.

Why?

Voyager has its own investigative capabilities and is
> independent on its own. Perhaps you would have an argument if you would
> remove that bias which automatically makes you view Voayger in the
smallest
> terms you can think of.

You insist I am biased yet you offer no proof of this . I offered this
episode ever concievable chance to improve and it continually disappointed.
It is your bias coupled wit an insane allegance to Voyager that prevent you
from forming a valid POV.

> The tension arose because of the deal. Most two year old children aren't
> up to wielding deals with their parents, nuclear weapons or not.

You are not a parent(nor have you ever seen 2 yearold in action)

> You may have missed it, but there was a little issue called the "deal
with
> the Borg." Janeway wanted to get home, but Chakotay had dealt with the
> Borg before and didn't trust them.

And she made it personal for some unknown reason. Instead of accepting a
differing opinion and saying I am in command she made Chakotay take her and
her idea as one or neither.

> I gues you're forgetting that episode that reran a week back called
> "Unity."

Excuse what does that have to do with this? Never did we see the Borg
threaten with assimilation in unity. We saw the Cooperative do that..

> Except for the Borg Queen, who was arrogant,

And the Borg Queen is a special case

or Locutus, who was arrogant.
> Remember, "Klingon. Kill by breaking third verterbrae. Death is
> instaneous. You will be assimilated blah blah."

I am unsure whether you are fucking moron or a complete fool. Locutus never
said anything remotely like that. The borg in DESECENT did.

> The Borg modify, 8472 exterminates. I agree that the goal is the same
but
> the rationale is very very different, as the reviewer points out.

Wrong. The reviewer specifically said their goals were as different as
night and day. I cna quote if your memory is indeed that poor.

> The Borg aren't xenophobic; that was his point.

Sure they are! If you are not them then you are not worthy to exist without
joining themand being alleviated of that pesky thing you call your life.

> Thus that is a deprature from the Borg. Fascism and Communism is a
similar
> parallel. Germany was already perfect, but Communism wanted to expand to
> free the proletariat everywhere. You do concede that Nazism and
> Commmunism, though very similar in some ways, are quite different in the
> final analysis, don't you?

Okay you are a fool. Communism and National Socialism were exactly the same
in many regards. In Communism an elite few members of the party (primarily
high ranking officals and generals) profited. The same is true of national
socialism except the elite few of the party were a select few
industrialists. They both wanted to expand their version of the common
man[in the case of the Nazis very few were actually men(or human if you
prefer) but this is besides the point]. Both, during their most prolific
periods, had their origins in personality cults centered around one
figurehead who was undeniably insane(Stalin and Hitler). There is in fact a
book which details this. The title is _Hitler and Stalin_. My mother gave
it too when she found it at Books-A-Million for 20 dollars. Read and be
enlightened.

> That's a non sequitur. Voyager was caught in the middle of the
situation.
> Democracy has some the same flaws and pluses of both Fascism and
Communism.

The point was in response to the statement that the Federation was a middle
ground. It is not as has been pointed out countless times on DS9

> The Federation last tiem I checked was a democracy in the modern
> definition of the word.

Nope. Different worlds that are clearly not democracies are Federation
members. Each planet has its own goverment and sends a representitive votes
in the council. We know very little beyond that other than the council
nominates a memeber to becomes Prez and his powers are apparently limited
in most matters..

> As I've pointed out, all the Borg "individuals" from Locutus to the Queen
> are very similar.

And as I pointed out you were wrong then and continue to live in that
little province.

> Funny. A lot of people didn't think Janeway was competent at all.

I didn't say she was. i said the castration of the Borg served two
purposes: a) to make Janeway and Co. look good b) make 8472 look like
really strong badasses.

> The Borg has always been contrived. The Enterprise was able to catch up
> with the cube in BoBW. That type of thing though does not detract from
the
> more important issue, Borg philosophy.

Now THAT is a non sequitor. Plot flaws, even ones like this that do not
exist, in BoBW are no relvant to this episode. BTW, Nowhere does the E-D
catch up with the Borg cube while they are both traveling. After the Borg
Cube is halted(by Data accessing Picard) do they manage to get witihn
transporter range.

> And in the end, she made her decision of Chakotay's objections. Beleive
it
> or not people can have their doubts at first, but once Janeway made up
her
> mind she did stick to it.

The problem isn't that she stuck to her guns the problem is that her guns
held blanks.

> That didn't happen so I don't see your point. She only intervened whe
nshe
> had leverage.

Hmmmm... Your observations are hereby placed in serious doubt: First she
decided to hightail to the northwest passage through Borg space telling her
crew she would fight the org when they enocuntered them. I seem to remember
het then taking the Voyager turning to chase after 15 Borg cues that had
suddenly disappeared

They cannot be that feared.

> Heaven forbid she can be a complex, erratic human being.

In a combat situation you do not want a erratic human being in command,
complex or plain and simple.

> ID4 may not have been a good movi but it was epic.

A bad movie cannot be epic. Epic implies greatness.

> Well they looked good to me. Particularly the explosions.

Of course they would.

> Yeah, nothin' beats those paper meche rocks.

Obviously not. How many times did Voyager use that really fake looking
cave?

Sorry, but the FX did
> intergrate into the story well in most places. Ejecting the Borg for
> example had a point.

It would ahve been just as effective without the needless Fx shot. YOu
wanna see tightly interwoven Fx(albeit limited ones)? Watch Balance of
Terror where tension is true.

You seem to be saying the show was bad because it had
> explosions. Funny, I see you defending SW all the time...

You mistake simplicity for clarity.

> Well that's science fiction for you.

Now that is complete stupidty.

> It is streamlined, especially that new fighter.

Okay obviously you are far stupider than I had once believed... I said
STEALTH BOMBER. You know those angular planes that cost a 800 mil apeice?
The new fighter is irrelvent and is not stealth. It is stealthy. Big
difference in terms of miltary application.

> At this point the Borg are not in a position to retrieve the technology.

Why? They have Voyager(and Janeway) by the balls it is not, as we are to
believe, the other way around.

> None of this relevant however, since it required a biological sample to
> deivse a weapon for 8472 and only Kim had it. Note the cube also
> sacrificed itself to save Vger, something it did without assimilating
> anything.

Excuse me. the Borg had a huge ass sample. You know that alien biomass that
ate through the hull? Take sample from that.

Note that it tried t otake advantage of Janeway by linihng her.
> Or how Seven commandeered Vger. Etc.

Okay. Allow me to bask in the glow of your ignorance.

> The beam is magic and gets thorigh shields. I don't know It is a
powerfu
> lweapon - that is the point.

Again I am astounded by your deductive ability(or lack thereof)

> That Borg also was damaged in a battle.

How exactly do you know? And why would a battle damaged drone try to
assimlate something?

It also ran away when it detected
> the alien coming. Perhaps it was trying different means of assimilating.

> The point was, the Borg were helpless.

The point was that the Borg were made helpless to make 8472 seem cool.

> I agree that they could have hinted a bit more than they did, but that
> doesn't override the fact that only Voyager had the specific information
on
> the nanoprobes and 8472 to construct the weapon.

Which they transmitted to the Borg when they first encountered them.

> She was a spokeperson, and conveyed the arrogance Locutus displayed.

Locutus NEVER dsiplayed anything remotely like arrogance.

[Hieronymus Bosch]

>
>
> Glad to hear it. Considering the you are my favorites groups of boobs I
am
> proud to have the dubious distinction of being your messiah.

>
>

> B5 "Severed Dreams"(this years Hugo winner). A battles of epic
proportions
> with human actions and believable drama.

Yeah, with a delightful Deus ex Machina and half the philosophy Scorpion
had. It was a big EVENT episode, that's all. by that standard, Call to
Arms will be next year's winner.

> "The Janeway/Chakotay stuff is the biggie here, but there are other
> issues. As the replacement of Kes with Seven of Nine shows, the
> writers are more interested with bringing in *new* characters than in
> fixing the ones they already have -- putting a new addition on the
> house, rather than taking care of that nasty termite problem.

That's not relevant to the Janeway question an may even be true, but that
doesn't somehow make Seven illegimate.

>
> The Da Vinci character is a case in point. John Rhys-Davies is a
> terrific actor, and I really enjoy watching him work (although after
> his roles in _Sliders_ and _Voyager_ I think he should really get a
> new agent), but he was introduced for no reason other than to give
> Janeway a playmate and confidant. Am I the only person thinking
> "Tuvok?" Way back when, Tuvok was stated to be Janeway's trusted
> friend and advisor; whatever happened to *that?* (I'll tell you; TPTB
> decided that a big expensive standing set would juice the ratings.
> *shakes head*) Tuvok really needs something to do; as Security Chief
> of Voyager he bloody well should have had a major, major say in the
> decision that Janeway and Chakotay wrangled over, and to have Janeway
> take her inner thoughts to a holodeck character instead of him is a
> waste of money and Tim Russ, not to mention its dealing of another
> blow to the credibility of Janeway."

I totally agree. Then again, Janeway's personality is not geared toward
confidign in others that way. I think that was part of the point - she was
talking to a hologram.

>
>
> ROFLMAO!! Are you nuts? What characters? You must first have a character
> before you can be driven by one.

Funny, most people criticize the decision because it made Janeway seem
selfish. You seem to think all decisions exist in a vacuum.

>
> >
> They might as well because their message was hammered home with a
> sledgehammer, "MORE IS BETTER."

Once again, your complaint, "Scorpion had FX" when in reality there was
only one place - the destruction of the planet - where it went too far.

>
>
>
> What goal? There was no definable goal that was even slightly realistic.
> Getting safely through Borg space? Could have been acheived at Transwarp
in
> a couple of seconds. Defeating 8472? Why? They weren't a threat. They got
> four direct hits on VOyager and the ship wasn't even scratched.

Had 8472 won, it would have been a threat. And sicne they have made it
through a significant portion of Borg space, I do not see your complaint.
Advancing plots is not the only reason we had the episode.

>
> Why?

It's about as applicable as saying humans are Borg and Voyager is a lemur.

>
>
> You insist I am biased yet you offer no proof of this . I offered this
> episode ever concievable chance to improve and it continually
disappointed.
> It is your bias coupled wit an insane allegance to Voyager that prevent
you
> from forming a valid POV.

Look, Vger is my least favorite Trek. I'm sensing our bias because you
take anything - from Seven's breasts to FX - as a sign that the show has
sold out without even bothering to actual discuss what the episode was
about.

>
>
> You are not a parent(nor have you ever seen 2 yearold in action)

No I am not but I know enough about children to realize that your analogy
has fundamental holes.

>
> > > And she made it personal for some unknown reason. Instead of
accepting a
> differing opinion and saying I am in command she made Chakotay take her
and
> her idea as one or neither.

Exactly. Chakotay said he was offering his opinion as expected of him and
she handled it badly.

>
>
> Excuse what does that have to do with this? Never did we see the Borg
> threaten with assimilation in unity. We saw the Cooperative do that..

My point was, it showed the Borg as having a philosophical good to it. You
said Vger had abandoned that. And sicne that episode motivated Chakotay
here, it has alot to do with this

> >
> And the Borg Queen is a special case

As was Seven and Locutus - they all spoke for the Borg

>
>
> I am unsure whether you are fucking moron or a complete fool. Locutus
never
> said anything remotely like that. The borg in DESECENT did.

The quote may be wrong but Loctus did say, "You will be assimilated" and
Worf replied, "The Klingon Empire will never fall." Locutus then chided
him for his blind attitude. He said Data would be obsolete. So who's the
dumbass now?

>
>
> Wrong. The reviewer specifically said their goals were as different as
> night and day. I cna quote if your memory is indeed that poor.

Well the reviewer is wrong then. That doesn't detract from the episode.

>
> > Sure they are! If you are not them then you are not worthy to exist
without
> joining themand being alleviated of that pesky thing you call your life.

That's splitting hairs. The Borg welcome diversity and different cultures
to the collective. That's not xenophobia.

>
> > >
> Okay you are a fool. Communism and National Socialism were exactly the
same
> in many regards.

I said they were alike in many regards. Read the quote.

In Communism an elite few members of the party (primarily
> high ranking officals and generals) profited. The same is true of
national
> socialism except the elite few of the party were a select few
> industrialists.

That's not the whole truth. It was the party there too. Yes the people at
Krupp did well but remember it was the gaulitiers and such who really made
it well.

They both wanted to expand their version of the common
> man[in the case of the Nazis very few were actually men(or human if you
> prefer) but this is besides the point].

It's my point exactly. 8472 says they are the Aryan race. Remember that
"genetic purity" bit?

Both, during their most prolific
> periods, had their origins in personality cults centered around one
> figurehead who was undeniably insane(Stalin and Hitler). There is in fact
a
> book which details this. The title is _Hitler and Stalin_. My mother gave
> it too when she found it at Books-A-Million for 20 dollars. Read and be
> enlightened.

Yeah, it's by Allan Bullock. I've read it thank you very much, and all I
had to do was go to the library. None of this contradicts what I said. I
said that 8472 was Germany and the Borg was Russia, and you are confirming
it.

What you have described is the rise of a totalitarian state, not why Nazism
and Communism is the same thing. Obviously there were different as anyone
who can read one of their pamphlets can tell. Yet they did have many of
the same features and used the same means because they were all-powerful
governments centered around charismatic leaders.

>
> >
> The point was in response to the statement that the Federation was a
middle
> ground. It is not as has been pointed out countless times on DS9

No, DS9 has pointed out that the Federation is the middle ground, which
means that has good and bad points. With the Maquis, the Federation was
partly right, partly wrong. I call that the middle ground.

PS Keep in mind that the person you're quoting (Eddington) was a bit of a
racist and just not a relaible witness.

>
>
> Nope. Different worlds that are clearly not democracies are Federation
> members. Each planet has its own goverment and sends a representitive
votes
> in the council. We know very little beyond that other than the council
> nominates a memeber to becomes Prez and his powers are apparently limited
> in most matters..

But it has ideals - liberty, equality, etc, that we associate with a modern
liberal democracy. Compare them to the Klingons or the Borg and you'll see
my point.

> > I didn't say she was. i said the castration of the Borg served two
> purposes: a) to make Janeway and Co. look good b) make 8472 look like
> really strong badasses.

Janeway and Co while they pulled a few miracle certainly didn't come out as
heroes, only as good guys. All I have to say about b) is that 8472 was
just that good. I don't see any point i ndebating that, since we don't
have the defense specs for either power.

>
> > Now THAT is a non sequitor. Plot flaws, even ones like this that do not
> exist, in BoBW are no relvant to this episode. BTW, Nowhere does the E-D
> catch up with the Borg cube while they are both traveling. After the Borg
> Cube is halted(by Data accessing Picard) do they manage to get witihn
> transporter range.

Perhaps I am wrong but even then the Borg have transwarp and should make it
to Earth far before the Enterprise can get near it. And somehow I think
they are better protected than to have Picard and Data put them to sleep.

The point was relevant because it showed that the Borg have always been
bit held back so that the good guys can win in the end.

>
>
> The problem isn't that she stuck to her guns the problem is that her guns
> held blanks.

Not necessarily. She was right about 8472, and the deal may ahve worked
had it not been for the fact that the war was deteriorating too rapidly for
the Borg to handle.

>
> > > Hmmmm... Your observations are hereby placed in serious doubt: First
she
> decided to hightail to the northwest passage through Borg space telling
her
> crew she would fight the org when they enocuntered them. I seem to
remember
> het then taking the Voyager turning to chase after 15 Borg cues that had
> suddenly disappeared

That's not a relevant point with regards to Janeway, since the whole crew
agreed to enter the passage, not jsut Janeway on a whim. So al ltogether
none of them had leverage.

No, she said for Kim to track the cubes and they went on their way. They
only investigated after the cubes had been destroyed.

>
>
> In a combat situation you do not want a erratic human being in command,
> complex or plain and simple.

I totally agree but that is life.

>
> A bad movie cannot be epic. Epic implies greatness.

No, epic implies big scale, at least in recent times. Star Wars is epic
but it is not Lawrence of Arabia.

>
>
>
> Obviously not. How many times did Voyager use that really fake looking
> cave?

Only four times this year I think.

>
> It would ahve been just as effective without the needless Fx shot. YOu
> wanna see tightly interwoven Fx(albeit limited ones)? Watch Balance of
> Terror where tension is true.

I don't see your point. The scene would have read, Tuvok: "The Borg have
been ejected." We needed to visual image to show what was happening. It's
called "direction."

> Now that is complete stupidty.

Okay... I'm glad you're keeping the argument intellectual.

>
> Okay obviously you are far stupider than I had once believed... I said
> STEALTH BOMBER. You know those angular planes that cost a 800 mil apeice?
> The new fighter is irrelvent and is not stealth. It is stealthy. Big
> difference in terms of miltary application.

Call me stupid but I don't see any similarities between the bioship and the
stealth bomber. Not in application or in looks. My fighter remark was a
side point. I'm sorry you can't discern that.

> Why? They have Voyager(and Janeway) by the balls it is not, as we are to
> believe, the other way around.

Because the info can be deleted. Seven threatened to beam 500 drones over,
showing they were certainly considering it

>
>
> Excuse me. the Borg had a huge ass sample. You know that alien biomass
that
> ate through the hull? Take sample from that.

They tried. Remember that Borg wh ocouldn't assimilate it? Remember the
fact that every time a cube ttacked it got its ass handed to it?

>>
> Okay. Allow me to bask in the glow of your ignorance.

For osmeone with kids, you're so mature.

>
>
> Again I am astounded by your deductive ability(or lack thereof)

LOL. The weapon is strong. I don't know why, nor do you. We work with
what we have.

>
> How exactly do you know? And why would a battle damaged drone try to
> assimlate something?

Err.. I'm sure the whole system was pretty screwed up. My car got in a
wreck but the CD palyer still worked, though it skipped. It was only a
theory.

>
>
> The point was that the Borg were made helpless to make 8472 seem cool.

The point was, 8472 was beating the Borg. We can't deduce anything else
other than that.

>
> Which they transmitted to the Borg when they first encountered them.

They transmitted a picture. If I emailed you a pciture of my computer
could you recreate it exactly?

>
> Locutus NEVER dsiplayed anything remotely like arrogance.

He told Riker, "Picard would have never approved." He kept talking about
the quality of life. He certainly wasn't humble. Psst... maybe Stewart
was just a better actor.
>

You really shoudl try to argue without insults... it tends to make peopel
consider the arguments you are saying, hard as it may be to find them (was
that an insult... naw.)

[Hieronymus Bosch]

>
> Your memeory is lapsing indeed. The Borg themselves say, and I quote," We
> have *analyzed* your defensive capabilites and have determined them..."
> This is not assimilation. This is the type of analysis JAneway claimed
they
> could not perform.

And they analyzed Vger's defenses. Ever consider that they just couldn't
analyze 8472?

>
> Tell me them: how did they learn to counteract the various new weapons of

> the fleet in FC?

Quantum torpedoes aren't as powerful as the 8472 weapon, and anyway that
cube was destroyed, even it was with Picard's help, because of those
weapons.

>
>
> They had no reason to believe she could. They had a bigger, more powerful
> ship. If they beamed 500 drones over they could have easily taken the
> ship. never once were they informed that the holodochad the information.

But as Janeway said, she jsut has to push a button. The Borg were in no
position to gamble. In other words, they wre being logical.

> >
> Which furthers the idiocy forced upon the Borg.

Oh?

>
>
> That is a ridiculous excuse for poor writing.

No, it is an exmaple of someone who can appreaciate a TV show for being a
TV show.
>

[Plain and Simple Cronan]

Hieronymus Bosch <pe...@rhodes.edu> wrote

> And they analyzed Vger's defenses. Ever consider that they just
couldn't
> analyze 8472?

Why when they have better sensors and computers? Your logic is as full of
holes as your head.

> Quantum torpedoes aren't as powerful as the 8472 weapon, and anyway that
> cube was destroyed, even it was with Picard's help, because of those
> weapons.

No. It was destoryed, like the other one, because of Picard's connection to
the collective. They could ahve used big fast moving rocks and won with
Picards knowledge.

> But as Janeway said, she jsut has to push a button. The Borg were in no
> position to gamble. In other words, they wre being logical.

How exactly could she push the button on while on the Borg vessel. She
could have been assimlated and forced to give her command codes in minutes
rendering the doc and every other supposded advantage null and void.

> No, it is an exmaple of someone who can appreaciate a TV show for being a
> TV show.

By shutting off all higher brain functions if they exist in that empty
little head of yours at all.

[Plain and Simple Cronan]

Hieronymus Bosch <pe...@rhodes.edu> wrote

> Yeah, with a delightful Deus ex Machina and half the philosophy Scorpion
> had.

It, unlike Scoprion, dealt with real issues on a human levle and did not
succumb to ridiculous psuedo-philosphising. What dues ex machina BTW? There
is none in Severed Dreams but perhaps you, a fool, has stumbled upon
something a wiseman, namely me, has missed.

It was a big EVENT episode, that's all. by that standard, Call to
> Arms will be next year's winner.

Wrongo. That episode was part of a 3 part mini-arc. The action in it has
been topped many times over but never with the same type of action

> That's not relevant to the Janeway question an may even be true, but that
> doesn't somehow make Seven illegimate.

Certainly does. It makes her character T&A appealing to your demographic(
young, stupid and middle class)

> I totally agree. Then again, Janeway's personality is not geared toward
> confidign in others that way. I think that was part of the point - she
was
> talking to a hologram.

Wrong. Explai nwhy she constantly, during the first 2 seasons, confided in
Tuvok?

> Funny, most people criticize the decision because it made Janeway seem
> selfish. You seem to think all decisions exist in a vacuum.

That was the shows premise you twit. That Voyager exists in a kind of
vacuum. The decisions of the captain along with it.

> Once again, your complaint, "Scorpion had FX" when in reality there was
> only one place - the destruction of the planet - where it went too far.

It was alot more than the Fx. There wsthe music, the addition of 7/9, the
ridiculous histrionics of the captain all *scream* MORE IS BETER

> Had 8472 won, it would have been a threat.

They couldn't have one. This Voyager not an semi-cogent show. They could
have had a tea party on the holodeck and won.

And sicne they have made it
> through a significant portion of Borg space, I do not see your complaint.

> Advancing plots is not the only reason we had the episode.

Again we have that poor excuse for lazy writers.

> It's about as applicable as saying humans are Borg and Voyager is a
lemur.

It is perfectly acceptable and that is another.

> Look, Vger is my least favorite Trek. I'm sensing our bias because you
> take anything - from Seven's breasts to FX - as a sign that the show has
> sold out without even bothering to actual discuss what the episode was
> about.

You simply don't get it. The show WAS about Seven's breasts. The show was
about the FX. It was not about the characters. It was not character driven
and it was not a masterpiece.

> > You are not a parent(nor have you ever seen 2 yearold in action)
>
> No I am not but I know enough about children to realize that your analogy
> has fundamental holes.

Obviously you do not. Two yearolds are very good at what they do and what
they do it get there way by any means nessecary.

> Exactly. Chakotay said he was offering his opinion as expected of him
and
> she handled it badly.

The method he choose to offer his opinion was equally flawed.

> My point was, it showed the Borg as having a philosophical good to it.

Showed no such thing. It showed the Cooperative having that.

You
> said Vger had abandoned that. And sicne that episode motivated Chakotay
> here, it has alot to do with this

Chakotay's motivations are also suspect.

> As was Seven and Locutus - they all spoke for the Borg

Locutus is nothing like the other two.

> The quote may be wrong but Loctus did say, "You will be assimilated" and
> Worf replied, "The Klingon Empire will never fall." Locutus then chided
> him for his blind attitude.

Locutus made a statement he believed to be fact. No emotional content
whatsoever. No arrogance or other emotional content. He indeed seemed
geninely perplexed hence his question in response to Worf, " Why do you
resist us? We only seek to increase quality of life for all species."

> He said Data would be obsolete. So who's the dumbass now?

You. Any more questions?

> Well the reviewer is wrong then. That doesn't detract from the episode.

It certianly does since the episode makes it is business to say that 8472
is worse than the Borg. I can quote that too if you would like

> That's splitting hairs. The Borg welcome diversity and different
cultures
> to the collective. That's not xenophobia.

Splitting the hairs on my ass. The Borg do not welcom diversity. They seek
uniform existence of all species.

> I said they were alike in many regards. Read the quote.

And different in the final analysis. Which is untrue.

> That's not the whole truth. It was the party there too. Yes the people
at
> Krupp did well but remember it was the gaulitiers and such who really
made
> it well.

And this is different from what I said how?

> It's my point exactly. 8472 says they are the Aryan race. Remember that
> "genetic purity" bit?

As due the Borg. Remember the perfection bit? They simply believe it is
possible for the undermen to join the club( by force if nessecary and to be
wiped if it they are resistant.

> Yeah, it's by Allan Bullock. I've read it thank you very much, and all I
> had to do was go to the library. None of this contradicts what I said.
I
> said that 8472 was Germany and the Borg was Russia, and you are
confirming
> it.

You said they were very different is the end. Not true in the slightest of
either Germany or 8472

>
> What you have described is the rise of a totalitarian state, not why
Nazism
> and Communism is the same thing. Obviously there were different as
anyone
> who can read one of their pamphlets can tell.

Wrong. They CLAIMED to be different but, contrary t owhat you claim, were
in the final analysis extremely similar.

Yet they did have many of
> the same features and used the same means because they were all-powerful
> governments centered around charismatic leaders.

The had many of the same features and means because they were, at their
heart, the same.

> No, DS9 has pointed out that the Federation is the middle ground, which
> means that has good and bad points. With the Maquis, the Federation was
> partly right, partly wrong. I call that the middle ground.

The Federation has never been a middle ground. The bad points are far
outwieghed by the bad ones as is clearly seen in their treatment of the
Maquis.

> PS Keep in mind that the person you're quoting (Eddington) was a bit of a
> racist and just not a relaible witness.

He was no more racist than an Arab attempting to protect his home from
intruding Israelies.

> But it has ideals - liberty, equality, etc, that we associate with a
modern
> liberal democracy.

So? Because it preaches certain ideals means nothing. Hitler preached
similar ones when he first got in office.

Compare them to the Klingons or the Borg and you'll see
> my point.

The Klingons are more free, liberated and equal than the Federation ever
has been.

> Janeway and Co while they pulled a few miracle certainly didn't come out
as
> heroes, only as good guys.

Janeway and Co pulled out contrived miracles that make the writers look
insanely stupid and you along with them.

All I have to say about b) is that 8472 was
> just that good.

Apparently not since Voyager took them out so easily.....

I don't see any point i ndebating that, since we don't
> have the defense specs for either power.

Who cares about defense specs? WE are talking about clear evidence that
shows 8472 is weaker than the Voyager yet able to blow the Borg from the
sky....

> Perhaps I am wrong but even then the Borg have transwarp and should make
it
> to Earth far before the Enterprise can get near it. And somehow I think
> they are better protected than to have Picard and Data put them to sleep.

The Borg did not have transwarp at this point.

> The point was relevant because it showed that the Borg have always been
> bit held back so that the good guys can win in the end.

Wrongo. The Borg were known to have developed transwarp some 2 and 1/2
years later around Desecent.

> Not necessarily. She was right about 8472, and the deal may ahve worked
> had it not been for the fact that the war was deteriorating too rapidly
for
> the Borg to handle.

That too is another point the war shouldn't have been deteriorating. There
are so many flaws in this episode that as they mount the structure becomes
less and less stable.

> That's not a relevant point with regards to Janeway, since the whole crew
> agreed to enter the passage, not jsut Janeway on a whim. So al ltogether
> none of them had leverage.

No. No one argued with her. This does not signal agreement. Further
Chakotay disagreed in no uncertain terms.

> No, she said for Kim to track the cubes and they went on their way. They
> only investigated after the cubes had been destroyed.

They did not know that. They knew they had lost their sensor lock and where
they had lost it.

> I totally agree but that is life.

In life the XO is legally bound to take commande.

> No, epic implies big scale, at least in recent times. Star Wars is epic
> but it is not Lawrence of Arabia.

SW is epic not because of its scale but because of its story type. It is
similar to tales of dragons princessess and evil wizards

> Only four times this year I think.

*ONLY*?

> I don't see your point. The scene would have read, Tuvok: "The Borg have
> been ejected." We needed to visual image to show what was happening.
It's
> called "direction."

*You* needed the visual image. *We* did not .

> Okay... I'm glad you're keeping the argument intellectual.

You are incapable of intellectualizing anything.

> Call me stupid but I don't see any similarities between the bioship and
the
> stealth bomber. Not in application or in looks. My fighter remark was a
> side point. I'm sorry you can't discern that.

Your fighter remark was the utlimate non-sequitor. The bioships were
equally unaerodynamic as the stealth bomber. This makes no sense
considering their realm.

> Because the info can be deleted.

How do they know the info can deleted? It could, and was, an idle threat.

Seven threatened to beam 500 drones over,
> showing they were certainly considering it

It shows that they had been dumbed down to a point where they resorted to
threats

> They tried. Remember that Borg wh ocouldn't assimilate it? Remember the
> fact that every time a cube ttacked it got its ass handed to it?

Wrong. He could not ASSIMILATE it. This does not mean he could not SAMPLE
it. The fact that the cubes were destroyed is equally puzzling as I have
tried to explain to you

> For osmeone with kids, you're so mature.

I do not have kids not did I ever claim to.

> LOL. The weapon is strong. I don't know why, nor do you. We work with
> what we have.

We know the weapon is *not* strong. Voyager took four direct hits. This
after being said to be crtically damaged and having not been to a StarBase
in 3 years. That is not a fearful weapon.

> Err.. I'm sure the whole system was pretty screwed up. My car got in a
> wreck but the CD palyer still worked, though it skipped. It was only a
> theory.

So is the theory that states the moon is made of green cheese.

> The point was, 8472 was beating the Borg. We can't deduce anything else
> other than that.

Again your marvelous lack of deductive ability astounds. The Borg can't
take an attack that Voyager withstands several of. Follow the path home
little one.

> They transmitted a picture. If I emailed you a pciture of my computer
> could you recreate it exactly?

Probably. Since I know enough about your computer to be able to tell, if
the screen was on and the hardrive present what kind of video card(your
display clarity should indicate this), sound card(based upon the speakers
present in your setup), cpu speed(usually plastered on the front of newer
computers but since they were Borg naniter they would already know this)
and operating system.

> He told Riker, "Picard would have never approved."

A statement of fact. Not arrogance.

He kept talking about
> the quality of life. He certainly wasn't humble. Psst... maybe Stewart
> was just a better actor.

He wasn't humble or arrogant he was the lifeless, emotionless voice ofthe
Borg.

> You really shoudl try to argue without insults... it tends to make peopel
> consider the arguments you are saying, hard as it may be to find them
(was
> that an insult... naw.)

I merely speak the truth. When you grace my level of thinking with your
presencne I will be more than happy to cease and desist my more....unkind
observations on your nature. If you cannot find my arguments it is because,
as I indicated above, your ability to discern obvious facts are extremely
indoubt....

-- Plain and Simple Cronan, X O of the USS Megadittos <*>
Sanity and comprehension are all too often contradictory conditions

[vincent radford]

On 9 Sep 1997, Eric van Bezooijen wrote:

> Janeway clearly stated "if you try to assimilate us we will destroy the

> information". And the rest of the episode clearly showed how they were
> willing to make any sacrifice to get the information. But it does seem

> weak that the borg never figured it out. However, you've got to write
> some kind of story, and ST, like the windows operating system, is now
> so complex and riddled with inconsistencies and legacy stuff, that it's
> pretty hard to write something using it and not make a mess of things :)

I also had a problem with the Borg not being able to figure out how to
stop the aliens. You would think that after thousands of years of
existance and evolving they would've been able to figure out something as
simple as modifying their technology to assimilate species 8727364648 or
whatever.:P Meanwhile the good doctor comes up with the idea in a few
hours.:P:P

Also, you would think that the Borg could just easily access Voyager's
computer and take the information for themselves instead of actually
making a deal with Janeaway and friends.

-Vincent

[Stormin']

>
>Also, you would think that the Borg could just easily access Voyager's
>computer and take the information for themselves instead of actually
>making a deal with Janeaway and friends.
>
>
>-Vincent
>

I had the impression that the information was not in the computer,
stored only in the holo-emitter. That would make sense since the Borg
already practically read everything from their computers. All that
the Borg got (before the battle within 8724's area) was a second's
visual representation.

Stormin'

[Hieronymus Bosch]

>
> Hieronymus Bosch <pe...@rhodes.edu> wrote
> > Yeah, with a delightful Deus ex Machina and half the philosophy
Scorpion
> > had.
>
> It, unlike Scoprion, dealt with real issues on a human levle and did not
> succumb to ridiculous psuedo-philosphising. What dues ex machina BTW?
There
> is none in Severed Dreams but perhaps you, a fool, has stumbled upon
> something a wiseman, namely me, has missed.

At the exact moment when she's needed, Delenn comes back from beaking the
Council to save the day. No hint of it was made before. It was out of the
blue and was an artificial plot twist.

Pseudo-philosophy? Compared to the Shadow War? As for real issues on a
human level, any number of Trek episodes this year, from The Chute to Blaze
of Glory had that.

>
> It was a big EVENT episode, that's all. by that standard, Call to
> > Arms will be next year's winner.
>
> Wrongo. That episode was part of a 3 part mini-arc. The action in it has
> been topped many times over but never with the same type of action

And Call to Arms will be part of a seven episode mini-arc. The point is,
both ar EVENT episodes.

>
> > That's not relevant to the Janeway question an may even be true, but
that
> > doesn't somehow make Seven illegimate.
>
> Certainly does. It makes her character T&A appealing to your demographic(
> young, stupid and middle class)

Funny, I don't like curvaceous women, and the only stupid thing I've doen
recently is assume a mature debate was possible on Usenet. But I digress.
Despite her cleavage, she has the potential of being an interesting
character, just as Lochsley on B5 does.

>
> > I totally agree. Then again, Janeway's personality is not geared
toward
> > confidign in others that way. I think that was part of the point - she
> was
> > talking to a hologram.
>
> Wrong. Explai nwhy she constantly, during the first 2 seasons, confided
in
> Tuvok?

You're missing my point. Here was a time of crisis where, as she put it,
she felt "all alone." She was responsible for the lives of her crew here.
How could she talk to Tuvok about that? It also shows how desperate she
was.

>
> > Funny, most people criticize the decision because it made Janeway seem
> > selfish. You seem to think all decisions exist in a vacuum.
>
> That was the shows premise you twit. That Voyager exists in a kind of
> vacuum. The decisions of the captain along with it.

Whatever. Voyager has had its past problems but they're not relevant to
Scorpion.

>
> > Once again, your complaint, "Scorpion had FX" when in reality there was
> > only one place - the destruction of the planet - where it went too far.
>
> It was alot more than the Fx. There wsthe music, the addition of 7/9, the
> ridiculous histrionics of the captain all *scream* MORE IS BETER

But all of this fit in. Of course the show was overhyped, but Seven's
addition was not forced, Janeway had her reasons, and the FX for the most
part were sued appropriately.

>
> > Had 8472 won, it would have been a threat.
>
> They couldn't have one. This Voyager not an semi-cogent show. They could
> have had a tea party on the holodeck and won.

And Clark won't win on B5. The good guys win. It's how you get there that
counts. (Insert your snide reply here.)

>
> And sicne they have made it
> > through a significant portion of Borg space, I do not see your
complaint.
>
> > Advancing plots is not the only reason we had the episode.
>
> Again we have that poor excuse for lazy writers.

Is Braga perfect? No. Is any episode of any TV show perfect? No. There
were flaws, but all in all considering what happened they did a pretty good
job of providing an action fest with ideas beneath it and characterization.

> > Look, Vger is my least favorite Trek. I'm sensing our bias because you
> > take anything - from Seven's breasts to FX - as a sign that the show
has
> > sold out without even bothering to actual discuss what the episode was
> > about.
>
> You simply don't get it. The show WAS about Seven's breasts. The show was
> about the FX. It was not about the characters. It was not character
driven
> and it was not a masterpiece.

It was not about Seven's breasts, and your harping on it suggests you have
some fixation about women you haven't worked out yet. Nothing Seven did
was remotely sexual, and there is more to Jeri Ryan I imagine than boobs.

It was character driven, primarily because it was about decisions.
Typically, decisions result from character motivation in case you hadn't
heard.

> > No I am not but I know enough about children to realize that your
analogy
> > has fundamental holes.
>
> Obviously you do not. Two yearolds are very good at what they do and what
> they do it get there way by any means nessecary.

Two year olds are good at what they do, but then again a bee is good at
pollination, so what's your point? A two year lacks the reasoning capacity
to be considered a legitimate part of your analogy.

>
> > Exactly. Chakotay said he was offering his opinion as expected of him
> and
> > she handled it badly.
>
> The method he choose to offer his opinion was equally flawed.

How so? That he waited until after the meeting?

>
> > My point was, it showed the Borg as having a philosophical good to it.
>
> Showed no such thing. It showed the Cooperative having that.

No, the cooperative was motivated because they missed the COLLECTIVE. The
collective has therapeutic qualities, yadda yadda etc.

> You
> > said Vger had abandoned that. And sicne that episode motivated
Chakotay
> > here, it has alot to do with this
>
> Chakotay's motivations are also suspect.

Okay... I thought they were fairly plain. Did he really want to lead a
mutiny?

>
> > As was Seven and Locutus - they all spoke for the Borg
>
> Locutus is nothing like the other two.

Locutus is somewhat different but they all are different in some way. It's
called being in "different situations."

> Locutus made a statement he believed to be fact. No emotional content
> whatsoever. No arrogance or other emotional content. He indeed seemed
> geninely perplexed hence his question in response to Worf, " Why do you
> resist us? We only seek to increase quality of life for all species."

Good to see you reviewed the tape. Obviously there was some arrogance, or
else he wouldn't have bothered to essentially taunt them. Seven shared the
same attitude. The intonation was different due to the different actors,
but the arrogance was there. Indeed, she almost seemed to be
indoctrianted, saying pompous things then having the collective change her
opinion for her.

> > He said Data would be obsolete. So who's the dumbass now?
>
> You. Any more questions?

Yeah, are you always such a blowhard?

> > Well the reviewer is wrong then. That doesn't detract from the
episode.
>
> It certianly does since the episode makes it is business to say that 8472
> is worse than the Borg. I can quote that too if you would like

No, it can be deduced. The Borg at least bother to keep you alive.

>
> > That's splitting hairs. The Borg welcome diversity and different
> cultures
> > to the collective. That's not xenophobia.
>
> Splitting the hairs on my ass. The Borg do not welcom diversity. They
seek
> uniform existence of all species.

No, they want to bring your cultural and technological diversity into their
own. Whatever good you culture offers they take.

> > That's not the whole truth. It was the party there too. Yes the
people
> at
> > Krupp did well but remember it was the gaulitiers and such who really
> made
> > it well.
>
> And this is different from what I said how?

You talked about the industrialists.

> > It's my point exactly. 8472 says they are the Aryan race. Remember
that
> > "genetic purity" bit?
>
> As due the Borg. Remember the perfection bit? They simply believe it is
> possible for the undermen to join the club( by force if nessecary and to
be
> wiped if it they are resistant.

Well, Communism says it is the perfect historical inevitability. It fits
much better with the Borg, as it supposedly improves the quality of life
for all species.

>

> > Yeah, it's by Allan Bullock. I've read it thank you very much, and all
I
> > had to do was go to the library. None of this contradicts what I said.

> I
> > said that 8472 was Germany and the Borg was Russia, and you are
> confirming
> > it.
>
> You said they were very different is the end. Not true in the slightest
of
> either Germany or 8472

No, I said they were opponents with different ends. I'm not seeing your
point here, or how you're countering mine.

> > What you have described is the rise of a totalitarian state, not why
> Nazism
> > and Communism is the same thing. Obviously there were different as
> anyone
> > who can read one of their pamphlets can tell.
>
> Wrong. They CLAIMED to be different but, contrary t owhat you claim, were
> in the final analysis extremely similar.

I've said they were simialr in many ways but one can certainly tell the
difference between the two.

>
> Yet they did have many of
> > the same features and used the same means because they were
all-powerful
> > governments centered around charismatic leaders.
>
> The had many of the same features and means because they were, at their
> heart, the same.

No... that jsut means on the outside they were the same. Did Stalin kill
the Ukrainians for the same reason Hitler killed the Jews? Did Stalin (not
a good example, since he wasn't extremely expansionist) want the Baltics
because of the need for living space?

>
> > No, DS9 has pointed out that the Federation is the middle ground, which
> > means that has good and bad points. With the Maquis, the Federation
was
> > partly right, partly wrong. I call that the middle ground.
>
> The Federation has never been a middle ground. The bad points are far
> outwieghed by the bad ones as is clearly seen in their treatment of the
> Maquis.

The Federation doesn't engage in terrorism. The Federation is stiffy and
uptight, and often forgets the needs of its citizens. That's what the
Maquis were about, but that doesn't mean the Federation isn't the middle
ground.

>
> > PS Keep in mind that the person you're quoting (Eddington) was a bit of
a
> > racist and just not a relaible witness.
>
> He was no more racist than an Arab attempting to protect his home from
> intruding Israelies.

I'm glad you're so sympathetic toward the problems in the Middle East. I
guess those terrorist bombers were justified in killing children in a
marketplace. i'm sure you see the logic in blowing up black churches in
Birmingham as well.

Eddington told Sisko that "they're jsut Cardassians" - implying something
far more than the fight for liberty was at work.

> > But it has ideals - liberty, equality, etc, that we associate with a
> modern
> > liberal democracy.
>
> So? Because it preaches certain ideals means nothing. Hitler preached
> similar ones when he first got in office.

Any moron can tell the difference between the two. Congress hasn't given
emergency powers to Clinton and Nazi biology isn't being taughti n our
schools.

>
> Compare them to the Klingons or the Borg and you'll see
> > my point.
>
> The Klingons are more free, liberated and equal than the Federation ever
> has been.

Okay... women are still at the whim of their husbands and the government is
decided by civil war or which house is more powerful at the time.

> > Janeway and Co while they pulled a few miracle certainly didn't come
out
> as
> > heroes, only as good guys.
>
> Janeway and Co pulled out contrived miracles that make the writers look
> insanely stupid and you along with them.

Why thank you.

> All I have to say about b) is that 8472 was
> > just that good.
>
> Apparently not since Voyager took them out so easily.....

It was the probes, not Vger.

>
> I don't see any point i ndebating that, since we don't
> > have the defense specs for either power.
>
> Who cares about defense specs? WE are talking about clear evidence that
> shows 8472 is weaker than the Voyager yet able to blow the Borg from the
> sky....

It was lazy of the writers to make Vger so resistant, but that doesn't deny
the fact that 8472 was simply beating the Borg.

>
> > Perhaps I am wrong but even then the Borg have transwarp and should
make
> it
> > to Earth far before the Enterprise can get near it. And somehow I
think
> > they are better protected than to have Picard and Data put them to
sleep.
>
> The Borg did not have transwarp at this point.

We don't know that.

>
> > The point was relevant because it showed that the Borg have always been

> > bit held back so that the good guys can win in the end.
>
> Wrongo. The Borg were known to have developed transwarp some 2 and 1/2
> years later around Desecent.

We don't know that.

> > Not necessarily. She was right about 8472, and the deal may ahve
worked
> > had it not been for the fact that the war was deteriorating too rapidly
> for
> > the Borg to handle.
>
> That too is another point the war shouldn't have been deteriorating.
There
> are so many flaws in this episode that as they mount the structure
becomes
> less and less stable.
>

Why not? If 8472 can destroy cubes on sight, isn't it logical to assume
that after a few months the Borg would be losing?

> > That's not a relevant point with regards to Janeway, since the whole
crew
> > agreed to enter the passage, not jsut Janeway on a whim. So al
ltogether
> > none of them had leverage.
>
> No. No one argued with her. This does not signal agreement. Further
> Chakotay disagreed in no uncertain terms.

Everyone seemed excited, bolting down hatches and such. It certainly was
different with regards to dealing with the Borg.

>
> > No, she said for Kim to track the cubes and they went on their way.
They
> > only investigated after the cubes had been destroyed.
>
> They did not know that. They knew they had lost their sensor lock and
where
> they had lost it.

The energy signals disappeared, which was mighty suspicious.

>
> > I totally agree but that is life.
>
> In life the XO is legally bound to take commande.

In life the XO can take command if he feels the captain is insane. He
can't do it because the decision was controversial.

>
> > No, epic implies big scale, at least in recent times. Star Wars is
epic
> > but it is not Lawrence of Arabia.
>
> SW is epic not because of its scale but because of its story type. It is
> similar to tales of dragons princessess and evil wizards

Well Scorpion was good versus evil, etc.

>
> > Only four times this year I think.
>
> *ONLY*?

Yeah

>
> > I don't see your point. The scene would have read, Tuvok: "The Borg
have
> > been ejected." We needed to visual image to show what was happening.
> It's
> > called "direction."
>
> *You* needed the visual image. *We* did not .

We? I had no idea you spoke for America. TV tends to be visually oriented
- that's why we "watch" it, and such images are a natural result.

>
> > Okay... I'm glad you're keeping the argument intellectual.
>
> You are incapable of intellectualizing anything.

Perhaps, but at least I try to keep the pretension of it for politeness's
sake.

>
> > Call me stupid but I don't see any similarities between the bioship and
> the
> > stealth bomber. Not in application or in looks. My fighter remark was
a
> > side point. I'm sorry you can't discern that.
>
> Your fighter remark was the utlimate non-sequitor. The bioships were
> equally unaerodynamic as the stealth bomber. This makes no sense
> considering their realm.

Their realm was fluidic space. Perhaps like the Stealth Bomber the design
has a functional purpose.

>
> > Because the info can be deleted.
>
> How do they know the info can deleted? It could, and was, an idle threat.

Because they have super duper computers, duh.

>
> Seven threatened to beam 500 drones over,
> > showing they were certainly considering it
>
> It shows that they had been dumbed down to a point where they resorted to
> threats

No, it shows that despite their weak position they were still capable of
being a menace.

>
> > They tried. Remember that Borg wh ocouldn't assimilate it? Remember
the
> > fact that every time a cube ttacked it got its ass handed to it?
>
> Wrong. He could not ASSIMILATE it. This does not mean he could not SAMPLE
> it. The fact that the cubes were destroyed is equally puzzling as I have
> tried to explain to you

It's an irrelevant point. Even if he had a sample where would he go? The
Borg haven't lasted long enough to get a sample and study it.

>
> > For osmeone with kids, you're so mature.
>
> I do not have kids not did I ever claim to.

Above you implied you did. Then again, people like shouldn't... I resist
for now.

>
> > LOL. The weapon is strong. I don't know why, nor do you. We work
with
> > what we have.
>
> We know the weapon is *not* strong. Voyager took four direct hits. This
> after being said to be crtically damaged and having not been to a
StarBase
> in 3 years. That is not a fearful weapon.

As i said, that was a mistake and I don't know why they did that. Maybe it
has to be tuned to a certain setting for each foe depending on what they
know about that foe.

>
> > Err.. I'm sure the whole system was pretty screwed up. My car got in a
> > wreck but the CD palyer still worked, though it skipped. It was only a
> > theory.
>
> So is the theory that states the moon is made of green cheese.

So is the theory of relativity.

>
> > The point was, 8472 was beating the Borg. We can't deduce anything
else
> > other than that.
>
> Again your marvelous lack of deductive ability astounds. The Borg can't
> take an attack that Voyager withstands several of. Follow the path home
> little one.

I will. Your argument has been fairly weak to this point, based on this
one fact. Think harder.

>
> > They transmitted a picture. If I emailed you a pciture of my computer
> > could you recreate it exactly?
>
> Probably. Since I know enough about your computer to be able to tell, if
> the screen was on and the hardrive present what kind of video card(your
> display clarity should indicate this), sound card(based upon the speakers
> present in your setup), cpu speed(usually plastered on the front of newer
> computers but since they were Borg naniter they would already know this)
> and operating system.

LOL. What if I sent you a picture of jsut my screen? Could you deduce the
specifics then? The point is, my computer is made of several pieces of
equipment that can be patched together. A specially designed nanoprobe
will be somewhat more complicated.

>
> > He told Riker, "Picard would have never approved."
>
> A statement of fact. Not arrogance.

He was taunting him. It had no purpose other than to throw Riker off
guard.

>
> He kept talking about
> > the quality of life. He certainly wasn't humble. Psst... maybe
Stewart
> > was just a better actor.
>
> He wasn't humble or arrogant he was the lifeless, emotionless voice ofthe
> Borg.

I disagree but you don't seem to care.

>
> > You really shoudl try to argue without insults... it tends to make
peopel
> > consider the arguments you are saying, hard as it may be to find them
> (was
> > that an insult... naw.)
>
> I merely speak the truth. When you grace my level of thinking with your
> presencne I will be more than happy to cease and desist my more....unkind
> observations on your nature. If you cannot find my arguments it is
because,
> as I indicated above, your ability to discern obvious facts are extremely
> indoubt....

Your standards seem t obe based on whether or not people agree with you,
regardless of the facts. Most of the points you dwell on are
irrelevancies, and on actual issues like characterization you have
demonstrated a complete lack of understanding. No, I'll decline the offer
to join you on that plain of thinking, likely located somewhere at the
bottom of Hell's Canyon.

[Gene Chan]

Vote for you favourite Star Trek site at
http://home.ipoline.com/~net/csta/stardate.htm for our Stardate
Awards!!!
Also, visit the Canadian Star Trek Association webpage at the
above address (but index.html!) Thanks!

[vincent radford]

On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Phoenix wrote:

> Investigate has a different meaning than analyze. Janeway obviously knew
> the Borg could observe things to a certain extent. Be able to adapt through
> analysis alone might've been a better way to put it, but it wouldn't have been
> as catchy a phrase. ;-) Regardless, if memory serves, the Enterprise kicked
> the Borg ship's ass until they had a chance to learn something from the piece
> they assimilated. After that even the torpedoes didn't work.

YES! I'm glad I'm not the only one who remembered that particular scene
of the Enterprise's first contact with the Borg. I mean the big E blew
away some MAJOR chunks of Borg cube, but did Picard finish the job?
NNNNNOOOOO! He just HAD to follow Starfleet protocol and INVESTIGATE the
Borg and establish relations. Heck, if good 'ol Kirk was in charge the
Borg would have been blasted to hell and beyond! SCREW STAR FLEET
PROTOCOL!!!!;)

Now that I think about it, it was pretty funny to see Picard kissing Q's
ass to save him. I'm suprised Worf still respects him the way he does.

-Vincent

[Allen Kim]

vincent radford wrote:
>
> YES! I'm glad I'm not the only one who remembered that particular scene
> of the Enterprise's first contact with the Borg. I mean the big E blew
> away some MAJOR chunks of Borg cube, but did Picard finish the job?
> NNNNNOOOOO! He just HAD to follow Starfleet protocol and INVESTIGATE the
> Borg and establish relations. Heck, if good 'ol Kirk was in charge the
> Borg would have been blasted to hell and beyond! SCREW STAR FLEET
> PROTOCOL!!!!;)

Yeah, but even if Picard blew the first Borg cube into smithereens,
there would always be other Borg ships to follow, and they'd be adapted
to torpedoes. There's a fine line between self-defense and outright
killing for revenge.

> Now that I think about it, it was pretty funny to see Picard kissing Q's
> ass to save him. I'm suprised Worf still respects him the way he does.

Which philosophy would you follow, "Better to die fighting than live on
our knees," or, "Live to fight another day"?

--
Allen Kim
alle...@scic.intel.com

[David Hines]

In article <us013303-070...@ip169.herndon2.va.pub-ip.psi.net>,
Ashley Edward Miller <us01...@mindspring.com> wrote:
[. . .]

>For "Scorpion", its clarity of purpose is both striking and admirable.
>Braga and Menosky wrestle here with the issue of individual will vs. the
>collective good, and posit forcefully that the essence of one is in fact

>the other [. . .]

Ashley Miller swallows Sarah Steagall, spits out common sense.
Film at eleven.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
| David Hines d-h...@uchicago.edu |
| http://student-www.uchicago.edu/users/dzhines |
====================================================================

[H&K]

> Assuming what you said is correct, why shouldn't the Aliens watch
> through Kes?
> They can't control where she goes on the ship, but it did pay off
> nevertheless.
> Through Kes, they learned about the Voyager/Borg alliance, and took
> steps to
> stop it. I also don't think it was dropped, it was referred to
> throughout the
> episode, and at the end they tried to negotiate a truce through Kes,
> but the
> aliens refused.
>
> Arthur

And it seems species 8472's telepathic link with Kes served to
jump-start the transformation she subsequently underwent.
--
___________________________________________________________
"No one can look at a sleeping cat and remain tense."
-- Jane Pauley