ST:DS9 is copying Babylon 5!
Joe Blayde
I don't know if I am the only one who has noticed that DS9 is
blatantly ripping off concepts from B5.
I recently saw a DS9 episode where Sisko was tracking down the
traitorous security officer. I was shocked to see that the Defiant will
now have a holographic projector on the bridge so Sisko can talk "face
to holographic face" with someone. This technology has been on B5 for a
lot longer. In the B5 episode "Walkabout" that aired last season, the
holo-chatter was used when someone taked to him. I think the B5 system
was cooler because it showed a little dude instead of a full sized dude.
I also noticed that the concept of old enemies coming together to
fight an unbeatable foe. I see the season-long concept of all the races
on B5 coming together to beat the Shadows has been copied by DS9. On the
episode that showed the Dominion coming through the wormhole, they also
showed the Romulans teaming up to fight the "unstoppable" Dominion.
These are blatant rips of B5 and I am shocke that the producers of DS9
would stoop so low to get ratings. DS9 was an excellent show like it
was, having it's own concepts. It's own flavor. The last season and the
begining of this season of DS9 made the show only second to B5. Now I
don't hold the show and it's writers in the same esteem as I did a year
ago.
Joe
Joe Blayde
I don't know if anyone else has noticed but DS9 is taking ideas from
B5. I've noticed that they are blatantly copying concepts of B5.
I recently saw a DS9 episode where Sisko was hunting down a traitor
and
webi0241
The holo-communicator was first seen in Star Wars, not B5. The
concept of enemies coming together to fight a common foe is one
of the oldest in literature. DS9 isnt stealing anything from
B5.
Bryan E. Esquire
In article <33309F...@linex.com>, Joe Blayde <jbl...@linex.com> wrote:
>
> I recently saw a DS9 episode where Sisko was tracking down the
>traitorous security officer. I was shocked to see that the Defiant will
>now have a holographic projector on the bridge so Sisko can talk "face
>to holographic face" with someone. This technology has been on B5 for a
>lot longer. In the B5 episode "Walkabout" that aired last season, the
>holo-chatter was used when someone taked to him. I think the B5 system
>was cooler because it showed a little dude instead of a full sized dude.
First of all, the holo-communicator was first seen in the Star Wars
Trilogy. A mini-holo picture is kinda dumb on a starship bridge.
> I also noticed that the concept of old enemies coming together to
>fight an unbeatable foe. I see the season-long concept of all the races
>on B5 coming together to beat the Shadows has been copied by DS9. On the
>episode that showed the Dominion coming through the wormhole, they also
>showed the Romulans teaming up to fight the "unstoppable" Dominion.
I don't know. Never watched B5. Never cared to really. However, the
premise of DS9 and B5 are different. The concept of the Shadows are different
than that of the Dominion and the Founders. Unless you can aptly say
that the Shadows are synonymous with the Roman Empire, then there is no
solid analogy. The Dominion is much like the Roman Empire. They can be
your greatest and most powerful ally. However, in order for then to be
allied with you, you must be under their rule. If you disagree in anyway,
they will send their legions (the Jem'Hadar) to destroy you or punish you
in such a way as to degrade, humiliate, and torture you. (Rememebr the
"Quickening?")
B5 and DS9 are similar yet dissimilar enough. Even the concepts of
the stations are different. What are the DS stations of the Federation
supposed to do? They are at the far corners of Federation space. DS9 just
happens to be the 9th in the line of DS Stations.
--
Marc Escuro [R] They reach into your room,
Bryan E. Esquire Just feel their gentle touch.
bas...@cats.ucsc.edu When all hope is gone, you know
http://www2.ucsc.edu/~bashir/ Sad Songs say so much
Paul Edwards
On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Joe Blayde wrote:
> I don't know if I am the only one who has noticed that DS9 is
> blatantly ripping off concepts from B5.
>
> I also noticed that the concept of old enemies coming together to
> fight an unbeatable foe. I see the season-long concept of all the races
> on B5 coming together to beat the Shadows has been copied by DS9. On the
> episode that showed the Dominion coming through the wormhole, they also
> showed the Romulans teaming up to fight the "unstoppable" Dominion.
>
> These are blatant rips of B5 and I am shocke that the producers of DS9
> would stoop so low to get ratings. DS9 was an excellent show like it
> was, having it's own concepts. It's own flavor. The last season and the
> begining of this season of DS9 made the show only second to B5. Now I
> don't hold the show and it's writers in the same esteem as I did a year
> ago.
I think the DS9 is the best of the Star Trek shows - but first and
foremost I am a B5 fan so don't take this the wrong way but these
concepts aren't a new idea - they populate a host of stories and myths
from long ago. As an example the Elves and Dwarfs (Yes Tolkien used
Dwarfs not Dwarves) that were enemise in the Hobbit worked together
against the Orcs in the Battle of five armies. That isn't a great example
but I can't think of a better one at the moment. The point is neither B5
or DS9 can claim these ideas are origional - but there are only so many
ways to tell a story and that is a good way!!!
recook77
webi0241 <webi...@web-i.com> wrote in article
<5gqmmp$2...@news0-alterdial.uu.net>...
You know, I was watching "Hong Kong Phooey" on Cartoon Network the other
night. Know what I realized. Hong Kong Phooey's sidekick is named Spot.
Guess what? Data's cat is also named Spot! That's it! Trek is copying
"Hong Kong Phooey"!
;)
Billdecat9
>>The holo-communicator was first seen in Star Wars, not B5. The
concept of enemies coming together to fight a common foe is one
of the oldest in literature. DS9 isnt stealing anything from
B5.<<
Isn't this argument getting a little old!? If we sat here and scrutinized
EVERY similarity between all the SCI-FI shows in existance...we'd never
get anything done. All Science Fictions shows have SOMETHING in
common..that's just the way it is and the way it's always going to be. I
love ST:DS9 and I also watch B5 but, I don't sit there the entire time I'm
watching the show debating which show came up with a certain idea
first...it's just stupid and pointless.
Lisa
President of the Unofficial Kristian Ayre online fan club
billt...@beachside.com
Billd...@aol.com
http://home.beachside.com/billthecat/Index.html
SAVE SPACE CASES -- Write to Nickelodeon...NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!
Richard Bergstresser
Joe Blayde wrote:
>
> I don't know if I am the only one who has noticed that DS9 is
> blatantly ripping off concepts from B5.
With all the stuff DS9 stole from B5, these are the examples you choose? No
offense but...
>
> I recently saw a DS9 episode where Sisko was tracking down the
> traitorous security officer. I was shocked to see that the Defiant will
> now have a holographic projector on the bridge so Sisko can talk "face
> to holographic face" with someone. This technology has been on B5 for a
> lot longer. In the B5 episode "Walkabout" that aired last season, the
> holo-chatter was used when someone taked to him. I think the B5 system
> was cooler because it showed a little dude instead of a full sized dude.
And both stole it from Star Wars. The DS9 version is a logical evolution of
existing technology on that show. The B5 version was "hey look at the cool sfx".
> I also noticed that the concept of old enemies coming together to
> fight an unbeatable foe. I see the season-long concept of all the races
> on B5 coming together to beat the Shadows has been copied by DS9. On the
> episode that showed the Dominion coming through the wormhole, they also
> showed the Romulans teaming up to fight the "unstoppable" Dominion.
The races that came together on B5 for the Shadow War were not necessarily
"old enemies". Of course on B5 the alliance was a major thread/theme of the
series. On DS9 it appears to be an afterthought, but seemed inevitable in light
of recent developments. Seemed like one of the most logical things they've done.
The rip off was Dukat joining the Dominion for the "greater glory of Cardassia".
Way out of character for both sides and way to similar too Londo and the Shadows.
> These are blatant rips of B5 and I am shocke that the producers of DS9
> would stoop so low to get ratings.
Doesn't suprise me. This is Paramount "Mo' Money" Star Trek.
> DS9 was an excellent show like it
> was, having it's own concepts. It's own flavor.
Still is, still does.
> The last season and the
> begining of this season of DS9 made the show only second to B5. Now I
> don't hold the show and it's writers in the same esteem as I did a year
> ago.
Actually, they've almost turned it around for me. They're getting away from those
silly character driven stories somewhat, and concentrating on the big picture
again. Done right that's what I like about both shows.
Again, not disagreeing with your premise, just your evidence. Be seeing you.
Andrew Crisp
Paul Edwards wrote:
>
> On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Joe Blayde wrote:
>
> > I don't know if I am the only one who has noticed that DS9 is
> > blatantly ripping off concepts from B5.
> >
> > fight an unbeatable foe. I see the season-long concept of all the races
> > on B5 coming together to beat the Shadows has been copied by DS9. On the
> > episode that showed the Dominion coming through the wormhole, they also
> > showed the Romulans teaming up to fight the "unstoppable" Dominion.
> >
> > was, having it's own concepts. It's own flavor. The last season and the
> > begining of this season of DS9 made the show only second to B5. Now I
> > don't hold the show and it's writers in the same esteem as I did a year
> > ago.
>
> foremost I am a B5 fan so don't take this the wrong way but these
> concepts aren't a new idea - they populate a host of stories and myths
> from long ago. As an example the Elves and Dwarfs (Yes Tolkien used
> Dwarfs not Dwarves) that were enemise in the Hobbit worked together
> against the Orcs in the Battle of five armies. That isn't a great example
> but I can't think of a better one at the moment. The point is neither B5
> or DS9 can claim these ideas are origional - but there are only so many
> ways to tell a story and that is a good way!!!
I think Mr. Blayde's point is that DS9 had it's own story to tell, but
(perhaps in an attempt to woo B5 viewers) the producers started to
change the story. DS9 started out as a regular episodic series, much
like ST: original and ST: next generation; I personally found seasons
one, two and three quite enjoyable. Seasons four and five (the present
one) are more and more blatant in their "non-originality". I don't have
a whole lot of time here, so I'll post more detailed commentary at a
later time.
As for the holoprojector; that's not copying; holography is a stock
device in science fiction. Frankly _I_ was surprised that Star Trek
took so long to employ holographic communication.
--
Andrew B. Crisp
JCET
NBCC Moncton
Part-Time Science Fiction writer
Robert H. Wolfe
In <01bc35ee$fcc097a0$ba995ccf@default> "recook77"
<reco...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
>
>You know, I was watching "Hong Kong Phooey" on Cartoon Network the
>other night. Know what I realized. Hong Kong Phooey's sidekick is
>named Spot. Guess what? Data's cat is also named Spot! That's it!
>Trek is copying "Hong Kong Phooey"!
How many times to I have to tell you people... DS9 is an "Asterix and
Obelisk" rip-off!
Robert Wolfe
St: DS9
Legal disclaimer: The previous comment was a joke. It is completely
false and was intended solely for humor. It does not constitute
evidence of plagarism under US or international law.
Robert H. Wolfe
In <33309F...@linex.com> flame-baitint Joe Blayde
<jbl...@linex.com> trolls:
>I don't know if I am the only one who has noticed that DS9 is
>blatantly ripping off concepts from B5.
>
>traitorous security officer. I was shocked to see that the Defiant
>will now have a holographic projector on the bridge so Sisko can talk
>"face to holographic face" with someone. This technology has been on
>B5 for a lot longer.
And on Star Wars for 20 years.
>In the B5 episode "Walkabout" that aired last season, the
>holo-chatter was used when someone taked to him. I think the B5 system
>was cooler because it showed a little dude instead of a full sized
>dude.
Wow. Just like Leia in SW. How revolutionary.
>I also noticed that the concept of old enemies coming together to
>fight an unbeatable foe.
You mean like France and England teaming up to beat Germany? Or
perhaps you are refering to the alliance to beat Napoleon? No... I
see... you're refering to the way France aided the US in it's
revolution against England only twenty years after the colonies aided
England in the French-Indian War (aka The Seven Year's War aka World
War 1/2).
>I see the season-long concept of all the
>races on B5 coming together to beat the Shadows has been copied by
>DS9. On the episode that showed the Dominion coming through the
>wormhole, they also showed the Romulans teaming up to fight the
>"unstoppable" Dominion.
In the writer's bag-of-tricks, this is old chestnut number seven, aka
"the Uneasy Alliance" or "the Strange Bedfellows Schtick." It was
invented by the famous Greek television writer Homer for the opening of
his mini-series "The Iliad."
> These are blatant rips of B5 and I am shocke that the producers of
>DS9 would stoop so low to get ratings.
Did it ever occur to you that we might both be ripping off the same
(ancient) sources? Nah. Sigh. They probably don't teach the Classics
in school anymore.
>DS9 was an excellent show like it
>was, having it's own concepts. It's own flavor. The last season and
>the begining of this season of DS9 made the show only second to B5.
>Now I don't hold the show and it's writers in the same esteem as I did
>a year ago.
Sorry you feel that way. But don't accuse us of theft when we've
committed no crimes. It's rude.
Robert Wolfe
ST: DS9
'Droid
Joe Blayde wrote:
>
> I don't know if I am the only one who has noticed that DS9 is
> blatantly ripping off concepts from B5.
>
> I recently saw a DS9 episode where Sisko was tracking down the
> traitorous security officer. I was shocked to see that the Defiant will
> now have a holographic projector on the bridge so Sisko can talk "face
> to holographic face" with someone. This technology has been on B5 for a
> holo-chatter was used when someone taked to him. I think the B5 system
> was cooler because it showed a little dude instead of a full sized dude.
>
> on B5 coming together to beat the Shadows has been copied by DS9. On the
> episode that showed the Dominion coming through the wormhole, they also
> showed the Romulans teaming up to fight the "unstoppable" Dominion.
>
> was, having it's own concepts. It's own flavor. The last season and the
> begining of this season of DS9 made the show only second to B5. Now I
> don't hold the show and it's writers in the same esteem as I did a year
> ago.
>
All the ideas in B5 and DS9 have been in SF for years in one form or
another. If you read enough you could say every episode of each has
'ripped off' its idea from somewhere.
'Droid
Lars Ormberg
Robert H. Wolfe wrote:
>
> In <33309F...@linex.com> flame-baitint Joe Blayde
> <jbl...@linex.com> trolls:
> >I see the season-long concept of all the
> >races on B5 coming together to beat the Shadows has been copied by
> >DS9. On the episode that showed the Dominion coming through the
> >wormhole, they also showed the Romulans teaming up to fight the
> >"unstoppable" Dominion.
>
> In the writer's bag-of-tricks, this is old chestnut number seven, aka
> "the Uneasy Alliance" or "the Strange Bedfellows Schtick."
Figures. It's what I used when making my TNG novel.
What are chestnuts number 1-6? (If you don't want to reveal all
techniques, feel free to submit any two).
> Robert Wolfe
> ST: DS9
--
Lars Ormberg
(I don't know where Mr. T lives. Stop phoning my home)
- I'm a genuine, certified, dixie fried, full of pride, 'til I die
pure bred redneck!
la...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca
____
The awesome website of The Commodore has been given a huge upgrade!
More animations! More Java! More Klingons! Now with a dedicated
and expanded links page, tons and tons more pics, an Alberta election
page, and Lars Ormberg's unique world commentary. Take another look at
http://www.ualberta.ca/~larso/ and then you will finally have an
experience that only can be declared as Lars On-Line!
* The Borg--our most lethal enemy--have begun an invasion of the
Federation. The assimilation continues...STAR TREK:FIRST CONTACT is
still showing in theatres, resistance is still not futile! Paramount
Pictures brings the treachery of a Queen, the courage of a captain,
and the destiny of a planet. (Oh, and some Star Wars special edition
thing is supposedly still playing as well. I hear it doesn't entirely
suck).
Gareth Wilson
rhw...@ix.netcom.com(Robert H. Wolfe) wrote:
>How many times to I have to tell you people... DS9 is an "Asterix and
>Obelisk" rip-off!
>
>Robert Wolfe
>St: DS9
>
So who's Asterix?
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gareth Wilson
gr...@student.canterbury.ac.nz
Christchurch
New Zealand
"I take great comfort in the
injustice and cruelty of the Universe"
-Marcus, "Babylon 5"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Hart
Gareth Wilson <gr...@student.canterbury.ac.nz> wrote in article
<5gtkrv$r02$2...@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz>...
> rhw...@ix.netcom.com(Robert H. Wolfe) wrote:
> >How many times to I have to tell you people... DS9 is an "Asterix and
> >Obelisk" rip-off!
> >
> >Robert Wolfe
> >St: DS9
> >
>
> So who's Asterix?
> --
He's one of two characters from a French cartoon.
But I'm surprised that Mr. Wolfe ever heard of him.
Is Robert Wolfe Canadian?
l8r
RBH
Andrew Crisp
Ok, I said I post a "more detailed" commentary, so here it is. I'll be
brief.
Everyone agrees that B5 and DS9 are in completely different universes
and thus their stories will forever be different at the core. The
trouble is that the surface elements of DS9 are becoming too much like
B5, whether by coincidence or design.
Example: in B5, Londo makes a "devil's pact" with the Shadows to bring
back the glory days of the Centauri republic. In DS9, Gul Dukat made a
"devil's pact" with the Dominion to bring back the glory days of the
Cardassian Empire and the Central Command. As someone who's watched DS9
more than B5, I can see two reasons for this similarity: one, that the
producers of DS9 saw this plot-line, thought it neat, and grafted it
onto their show, or two they developed it independantly (not so strange
as it may sound. DS9 had well established that most Cardassians will
switch sides if it suits their interests, or insures their survival and
rank).
This is the most blatant example. The next similarity between the shows
comes with the conflict between the Dominion and the Alpha Quadrant; a
lot of people (myself included) see it as a close approximation to the
Shadow War. There are, however sufficient differences (because of
origin) that make this a poor example. Listing them off:
1. the Dominion is not concerned with "shaping" younger races; it's an
empire, pure and simple, and wants to expand its borders and/or
eliminate threats to its stability.
2. the Shadow War was primarily between two races: Vorlons and Shadows
with all younger races as the weapons in the war. There is (at present)
no Star Trek equivilent to the Vorlons.
3. Dominion involvement with enemies/potential allies is different than
Shadow involvement; the Dominion sends spies/saboteurs, and does not
encourage conspiracies within governments (like the Shadows did with the
Centauri and President Clark).
4. Dominion ships are not organic and are not vulnerable to telepaths.
There are a few other differences, but by then I would be quibbling.
Suffice it to say that the Dominion is a poor analogy for the Shadows...
if you wanted a more correct analogy, I would suggest the Borg might be
a better choice (superior technology, including organic, and a Manifest
Destiny to top them all).
There are also other "similarities", such as the (failed) military coup
on Earth in DS9 (like Clark's successful conspiracy?), but, short of
interrogating the producers at Paramount, we won't be able to know if B5
was the source of these similarities. I am keeping a close eye on both
shows, and if the similarities get more obvious (like, say, DS9 breaking
free from the Federation, Dominion ships "suddenly" vulerable to
telepathy, or Odo resigning under mysterious cirumstances), then I might
yell "foul!".
Whether DS9 is copying B5 or not, the similarities make it _look_ like
copying, and that will ultimately be to DS9's detriment.
Comments and corrections?
kpvec
On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Joe Blayde wrote:
> I don't know if I am the only one who has noticed that DS9 is
> blatantly ripping off concepts from B5.
>
> I recently saw a DS9 episode where Sisko was tracking down the
> traitorous security officer. I was shocked to see that the Defiant will
> now have a holographic projector on the bridge so Sisko can talk "face
> to holographic face" with someone. This technology has been on B5 for a
> lot longer. In the B5 episode "Walkabout" that aired last season, the
> holo-chatter was used when someone taked to him. I think the B5 system
> was cooler because it showed a little dude instead of a full sized dude.
>
> I also noticed that the concept of old enemies coming together to
> fight an unbeatable foe. I see the season-long concept of all the races
> on B5 coming together to beat the Shadows has been copied by DS9. On the
> episode that showed the Dominion coming through the wormhole, they also
> showed the Romulans teaming up to fight the "unstoppable" Dominion.
>
> These are blatant rips of B5 and I am shocke that the producers of DS9
> would stoop so low to get ratings. DS9 was an excellent show like it
> was, having it's own concepts. It's own flavor. The last season and the
> begining of this season of DS9 made the show only second to B5. Now I
> don't hold the show and it's writers in the same esteem as I did a year
> ago.
>
> Joe
>
>
To quote an episode of Friends, 'you could not be more wrong, you could
try but you would not be successful'. The Federation and the Klingon
Empire have been allies since the start of The Next Generation. They
allied to fight a common enemy in 'The Best Of Both Worlds', remember ?
Teaming up to fight the Dominion is a natural course to take. Britain,
France, the US etc etc teamed up to fight the Axis powers in World War
II. And again in the Gulf. It happens when a group of smaller nations is
under threat from a larger, greater power.
Star Trek first saw holographic communication in 'The Nth Degree'. The
viewscreen on the Enterprise-E is holographic. This is a natural
progression, since 3D user interfaces were mentioned by Bashir in 'The
Visitor'. Oh yeah, and that was Draal using the B5 method. Normally in B5
they use video screens, very cheap video screens.
I am so sick of these constant comparisons. I like B5, I have seen every
episode that it has been possible for me to see. I know all the back
story, I know all history. I am a B5 fan, but next to DS9 it pails in to
insignificance. I know that if both shows were on at the same time, I
would watch DS9. (Not that they would be, in the first three seasons B5's
timeslot has changed three times, because a Star Trek show was on. It'll
have to again, since Star Trek: Voyager is now on Sunday nights).
Alex.
-
Visit the Ward Room at :
http://www.wmin.ac.uk/~kpvec/ds9fr.htm
Merlin Null
kpvec wrote:
> I am so sick of these constant comparisons. I like B5, I have seen every
> episode that it has been possible for me to see. I know all the back
> story, I know all history. I am a B5 fan, but next to DS9 it pails in to
> insignificance. I know that if both shows were on at the same time, I
> would watch DS9. (Not that they would be, in the first three seasons B5's
> timeslot has changed three times, because a Star Trek show was on. It'll
> have to again, since Star Trek: Voyager is now on Sunday nights).
IMHO Babylon 5 is not only better than DS9, it is an order of magnitude
better. I am a fan of both. I would bail on DS9 in a flash to see
Babyon 5 if I had to make the choice. But, that is why I have 2 VCRs.
I also feel that ST: Voyager is far worse than DS9. It is just on my
threshold of what I won't watch. Perhaps I continue it out loyalty
to the original ST. It looked to me that the ratings on Voyager are
low enough that it could be in trouble. DS9 has much better ratings.
The Babylon 5 ratings have been climbing, but can't compare to those
of DS9 due to how it is distributed.
However, if you want real dreck, look at the network sitcoms. Much of
that garbage is aimed at an IQ only slightly higher than that of an
eggplant.
Merlin R.(Bob) Null
Steven Fisher
In article <5gvbls$5...@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
rhw...@ix.netcom.com(Robert H. Wolfe) wrote:
>In <33324D...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> Lars Ormberg
><la...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> writes:
>>
>>Robert H. Wolfe wrote:
>>> In the writer's bag-of-tricks, this is old chestnut number seven,
>>> aka "the Uneasy Alliance" or "the Strange Bedfellows Schtick."
>>
>>Figures. It's what I used when making my TNG novel.
>>
>>What are chestnuts number 1-6? (If you don't want to reveal all
>>techniques, feel free to submit any two).
>
<techniques snipped>
>How's that?
>
>Robert
Gee. I thought for sure it was a list like the "Rules of Acquisition"...
they just got made up as you go along.
--Steve
--
Steven Fisher
Discovery Software Ltd.
steve_...@discoverysoft.com
Robert Holland
I dunno. I'm beginning to think this whole sci-fi tv biz is
rather incestuous. I saw an old Tech War in which Michael York
donned chainmail and armor, and joined in battle with a
broadsword.
Now, which episode of B5 featured Michael York in chainmail
and armor, duking it out with his broadsword?
--RH
cknu...@sunflowr.usd.edu
Actualy Babylon 5 is copying DS9 and Star Trek in general. Look at the
shadows, the can CLOAK. That was done on Star Trek over 30 years ago.
Who is copying who now? Hmmmmmm? So I have to agree with what was stated
in a past post by someone. If you look at all the Sci-Fi shows, They all
have several things the same. I garentee it.
John
Jeremiah Gard
Timothy E Young
Distribution:
Robert H. Wolfe (rhw...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: Nope. My distant relative General James Wolfe mucked around up there a
: while, though. Got three musket balls in the throat and a nice statue
: in Westminster Abbey for his trouble.
Ha! One of my ancestors, a Mr. James Truesdell, fought in the
Revolutionary War. As fate would have it, he had his leg blown off by a
cannonball. Fortunately, he was able to clot the wound with a hankerchief
and live long enough to continue the family line. We've passed that damn
hankerchief down the generations, and it currently hangs proudly in my
folk's living room. that fella's my namesake...
Would that make a good episode of DS9, Robert? ;-) If not, you could
always do one about my swimmy ancestor who fell off the Mayflower. Oh,
that's right-- you're not allowed to read story suggestions. Ooops! Could
have been a classic up there with LET HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN....
teej aka truesdell james
"I'm Bobby Fisher!"
Gary Farber
In alt.tv.star-trek.ds9 Robert H. Wolfe <rhw...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
: In <33309F...@linex.com> flame-baitint Joe Blayde
: <jbl...@linex.com> trolls:
: > I recently saw a DS9 episode where Sisko was tracking down the
: >traitorous security officer. I was shocked to see that the Defiant
: >will now have a holographic projector on the bridge so Sisko can talk
: >"face to holographic face" with someone. This technology has been on
: >B5 for a lot longer.
: And on Star Wars for 20 years.
Not to mention in written sf for decades before George Lucas used it (SW
had not a single original sf idea, of course, but was simply a mishmash
of pulp sf concepts with standard fictional and mythological archetypes).
[. . .]
: >In the B5 episode "Walkabout" that aired last season, the
: >holo-chatter was used when someone taked to him. I think the B5 system
: >was cooler because it showed a little dude instead of a full sized
: >dude.
: Wow. Just like Leia in SW. How revolutionary.
Or in written sf for decades. Reading: what a revolutionary concept.
[. . .]
: Sorry you feel that way. But don't accuse us of theft when we've
: committed no crimes. It's rude.
And ignorant.
--
-- Gary Farber gfa...@panix.com
Copyright 1997 Brooklyn, NY, USA
Roberto Castillo
I was kidnapped and replaced by a changeling just as Andrew Crisp
<mo03...@nbcc.nb.ca> wrote:
>Ok, I said I post a "more detailed" commentary, so here it is. I'll be
>brief.
>
>Everyone agrees that B5 and DS9 are in completely different universes
>and thus their stories will forever be different at the core. The
>trouble is that the surface elements of DS9 are becoming too much like
>B5, whether by coincidence or design.
>
>Example: in B5, Londo makes a "devil's pact" with the Shadows to bring
>back the glory days of the Centauri republic. In DS9, Gul Dukat made a
>"devil's pact" with the Dominion to bring back the glory days of the
>Cardassian Empire and the Central Command. As someone who's watched DS9
>more than B5, I can see two reasons for this similarity: one, that the
>producers of DS9 saw this plot-line, thought it neat, and grafted it
>onto their show, or two they developed it independantly (not so strange
>as it may sound. DS9 had well established that most Cardassians will
>switch sides if it suits their interests, or insures their survival and
>rank).
>
I'm not really sure that even this is a particularly good example. One
common aspect of "Devil's Pacts" in fiction is that usually, the person
making the pact doesn't even realize what he is doing. This is definitely
the case in Londo's alliance with the Shadows. When he first voiced his
desire to see the Centauri Empire return to its glory days again, he didn't
even realize that Morden and the Shadows would take it upon themselves to
help him. He had no idea what he was getting himself into.
Contrast this with Gul Dukat. As you've pointed out, Dukat has a habit of
changing sides when it best suits him. Beyond this, Dukat was well aware of
what the Dominion represents and what it is capable of doing. In fact his is
the very reason why he allied himself with them, because they can defeat the
other powers of the Alpha Quadrant for him. Londo on the other hand started
to get frightened when he got his first glimpses of how powerful the Shadows
where (and even then he still had little idea of just what they were). Dukat
on the other hand is moving coolly and confidently, possibly with his own
hidden agenda. Londo was pretty much making things up as he went along.
>Whether DS9 is copying B5 or not, the similarities make it _look_ like
>copying, and that will ultimately be to DS9's detriment.
>
>Comments and corrections?
>--
Well, there certainly are similarities between the two shows but by and
large they seem to be similarities that occur in all science fiction. Didn't
Count Baltar make a "Devil's Pact" with the Cylons as well?
--
"I am First Omet'iklan, and I am dead. As of this moment, we are all
dead. We go into battle to reclaim our lives. This we do gladly, for
we are Jem'Hadar. Remember, victory is life."
-- Omet'iklan
"I am Chief Miles Edward O'Brien. I'm very much alive, and I intend
to *stay* that way."
-- O'Brien
"I'm worried about Bart. Today, he's sucking people's blood,
tommorrow he might be smoking."
-Marge Simpson
Roberto Castillo
University of Illinois at Chicago
E-Mail: rca...@uic.edu
http://www2.uic.edu/~rcasti1/rcasti1.html
Robert H. Wolfe
In <01bc3621$3d4b58a0$0126...@robhar.gov.edmonton.ab.ca> "Robert Hart"
Nope. My distant relative General James Wolfe mucked around up there a
while, though. Got three musket balls in the throat and a nice statue
in Westminster Abbey for his trouble.
Robert
Robert H. Wolfe
In <33324D...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> Lars Ormberg
<la...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> writes:
>
>Robert H. Wolfe wrote:
>> In the writer's bag-of-tricks, this is old chestnut number seven,
>> aka "the Uneasy Alliance" or "the Strange Bedfellows Schtick."
>
>Figures. It's what I used when making my TNG novel.
>
>What are chestnuts number 1-6? (If you don't want to reveal all
>techniques, feel free to submit any two).
1. The lost prince/ss returns to the take the throne and save the
kingdom. (STAR WARS, JASON AND THE ARGONAUTS, THE NEW TESTAMENT)
2. The hero goes to hell to get back something important/get rid of
something nasty. (THE ODYSSEY, LORD OF THE RINGS)
3. The family strives against all odds to make it in an evil/harsh
world. (THE GODFATHER, EXODUS)
4. The plucky young lad/lass rises up in the world. (THE HOBBIT, GO
WEST YOUNG MAN, THE BIBLE STORIES OF JACOB AND JOSEPH, CLUELESS)
5. Everything goes to shit. We are defiant in the face of death.
(NORSE MYTHOLOGY, THE BOOK OF JOB, RUNAWAY TRAIN)
6. The hero is brought down by his own hubris. (OEDIPUS REX, KING
LEAR)
7. As previously established, old enemies (or other rough types) come
together to face a common foe. (MAJOR DUNDEE, THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN,
SEVEN AGAINST THEBES, THE DEFIANT ONES)
How's that?
Robert
Diane L. Schirf
>I don't know if I am the only one who has noticed that DS9 is
>blatantly ripping off concepts from B5.
>
> I recently saw a DS9 episode where Sisko was tracking down the
>traitorous security officer. I was shocked to see that the Defiant will
>now have a holographic projector on the bridge so Sisko can talk "face
>to holographic face" with someone. This technology has been on B5 for a
>lot longer. In the B5 episode "Walkabout" that aired last season, the
>holo-chatter was used when someone taked to him. I think the B5 system
>was cooler because it showed a little dude instead of a full sized dude.
>
> I also noticed that the concept of old enemies coming together to
>fight an unbeatable foe. I see the season-long concept of all the races
>on B5 coming together to beat the Shadows has been copied by DS9. On the
>episode that showed the Dominion coming through the wormhole, they also
>showed the Romulans teaming up to fight the "unstoppable" Dominion.
>
> These are blatant rips of B5 and I am shocke that the producers of DS9
>would stoop so low to get ratings. DS9 was an excellent show like it
>was, having it's own concepts. It's own flavor. The last season and the
>begining of this season of DS9 made the show only second to B5. Now I
>don't hold the show and it's writers in the same esteem as I did a year
>ago.
No. All of this can be found in many works over many years. Very little
on either show is entirely new. No one is ripping anyone off.
--
sl...@aol.com | del...@mindspring.com | http://members.aol.com/slywy | ASGTPR #56
Updated 11 March 1997 with an attempt at blank verse poetry
"Who knows . . . what evil . . . llllllurks in the hearts of men? The *Shadows* know . . ."
Francis M'stein
On Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:03:25 +0000, kpvec <kp...@westminster.ac.uk>
wrote:
>
>
>On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Joe Blayde wrote:
>To quote an episode of Friends, 'you could not be more wrong, you could
>try but you would not be successful'. The Federation and the Klingon
>Empire have been allies since the start of The Next Generation. They
>allied to fight a common enemy in 'The Best Of Both Worlds', remember ?
I assume you mean ST VI: The Undiscovered Country? I sure don't
remember seeing the Klingons in BOBW....
>
>Teaming up to fight the Dominion is a natural course to take. Britain,
>France, the US etc etc teamed up to fight the Axis powers in World War
>II.
They didn't exactly 'team up' in WW2; Nazi Germany declared war on all
of them (well, technically the Brits declared war before Hitler did,
but you know what I mean...), which makes for natural allies. The
French and British were allies as an outgrowth of WW1, although France
was defeated without receiving much help from the English. They were
nominal allies when the Phoney War began in '39, but the Empire had
too few armed forced ready to send into France (besides the BEF which
was permanently stationed there). But I digress....
> And again in the Gulf. It happens when a group of smaller nations is
>under threat from a larger, greater power.
I wouldn't call the US a 'smaller nation' and neither Nazi-Germany nor
Husseini-Iraq a 'greater power'....
Francis M'stein
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Andrew Crisp
effect seems to be the Shadow version of entering/leaving hyperspace.
As for the Shadows themselves, I'm not sure whether their invisibility
is biological (which I find hard to believe) or technological, or a
combination of both. Understandable since the Shadows have been
spacefaring for over a million years.
Strangely, no race within the Star Trek universe has been spacefaring
for more than a thousand years or so (with possible exception of the
Borg, who may have been around for over five thousand/ten thousand
years) -- everybody's at the same level of technology (see comments by
Carl Sagan and other space scientists/SETI experts about this).
Kamin
cknu...@sunflowr.usd.edu wrote:
>
> Actualy Babylon 5 is copying DS9 and Star Trek in general. Look at the
> shadows, the can CLOAK. That was done on Star Trek over 30 years ago.
> Who is copying who now? Hmmmmmm? So I have to agree with what was stated
> in a past post by someone. If you look at all the Sci-Fi shows, They all
> have several things the same. I garentee it.
>
vessels don't cloak, either. What you perchieve as cloaking is actually
this ships going into, or coming out of, hyperspace.
kcw
Robert Holland <rhol...@wco.com> wrote in article
<33335D...@wco.com>...
> Joe Blayde wrote:
> >
> > I don't know if anyone else has noticed but DS9 is taking ideas from
> > B5. I've noticed that they are blatantly copying concepts of B5.
> >
> > I recently saw a DS9 episode where Sisko was hunting down a traitor
> > and
>
> I dunno. I'm beginning to think this whole sci-fi tv biz is
> rather incestuous. I saw an old Tech War in which Michael York
> donned chainmail and armor, and joined in battle with a
> broadsword.
>
> Now, which episode of B5 featured Michael York in chainmail
> and armor, duking it out with his broadsword?
>
> --RH
>
Let's not forget that the Tekwar (notice the spelling) movie was taken off
of the books (however loosely, to the chagrin of Tekwar fans everywhere)
Hannah
Airmen Lar
First, whoever started this message topic is gay. Seconed, B5 was
submitted to paramount a full year before DS9. Third, shadows don't cloak
they're born that way. Fourth, JMS is creative, current ST producers lack
that gene.
Lars Ormberg
Francis M'stein wrote:
>
> On Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:03:25 +0000, kpvec <kp...@westminster.ac.uk>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Joe Blayde wrote:
>
> >To quote an episode of Friends, 'you could not be more wrong, you could
> >try but you would not be successful'. The Federation and the Klingon
> >Empire have been allies since the start of The Next Generation. They
> >allied to fight a common enemy in 'The Best Of Both Worlds', remember ?
>
> I assume you mean ST VI: The Undiscovered Country? I sure don't
> remember seeing the Klingons in BOBW....
Admiral Hanson reported to Riker and the crew that the Klingons and
perhaps even the Romulans would be making thier stand at Wolf 359.
> Francis M'stein
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
--
Richard Bergstresser
> > B5. I've noticed that they are blatantly copying concepts of B5.
> >
>
I like that. By extension since DS9 is copying B5 then DS9 "sucks". Was that
your point?
Stephen Davies
In a message of 21-Mar-97 09:37:03, Gareth Wilson wrote to All:
>rhw...@ix.netcom.com(Robert H. Wolfe) wrote:
>>How many times to I have to tell you people... DS9 is an "Asterix and
>>Obelisk" rip-off!
>>
>>Robert Wolfe
>>St: DS9
>>
>So who's Asterix?
He's a Gaul.
--
Ste B.
Stephen Davies
In a message of 21-Mar-97 22:36:24, cknutson wrote to All:
>Actualy Babylon 5 is copying DS9 and Star Trek in general. Look at the
>shadows, the can CLOAK. That was done on Star Trek over 30 years ago.
Hmm.. I'm a fan of both star-trek & B5, I actually prefer neither,
but I have to tell you that the shadow "cloaking" effect has very little to
do with 'cloaking' in the star trek sense, it is the shadow ships
moving from normal space to Hyperspace.. (without the use of a jump-point
or gate)
>Who is copying who now? Hmmmmmm? So I have to agree with what was stated
>in a past post by someone. If you look at all the Sci-Fi shows, They all
>have several things the same. I garentee it.
Thats TRUE.. but as the old saying goes, nothing is new these days...
===
Steve B. <st...@eateggs.demon.co.uk || 2:2500/73.17>.
Chris Trimmer
On Fri, 21 Mar 1997 16:36:24 -0600, <cknu...@sunflowr.usd.edu> wrote:
>Actualy Babylon 5 is copying DS9 and Star Trek in general. Look at the
>shadows, the can CLOAK. That was done on Star Trek over 30 years ago.
>Who is copying who now? Hmmmmmm? So I have to agree with what was stated
>in a past post by someone. If you look at all the Sci-Fi shows, They all
>have several things the same. I garentee it.
>
>John
>
The Shadow ships don't cloak. That is how they enter/exit from
hyperspace. Instead of forming jumppoints like the other ships in the
show, they just kind of phase in/out. They never use it as a weapon.
It's just as detectable as any other ships on the show coming out of
hyperspace. Star Trek set the standard for almost all of the science
fiction we have now. It's understandable that some things have roots
with Star Trek.
Lars Ormberg
Andrew Crisp wrote:
> Strangely, no race within the Star Trek universe has been spacefaring
> for more than a thousand years or so (with possible exception of the
> Borg, who may have been around for over five thousand/ten thousand
> years) -
That's not entirely true. The Q have been immortal for eons, yet before
they were such they were corporeal like us. The Organians are partly
corporeal but partly not as well, hinting that they are older
lifeforms. The species that Barclay took the Enterprise-D to (at the
centre of the galaxy) have been in space for a long time. And the
Vulcans were spacefaring well over a thousand years ago, not to mention
the Bajorans.
The aliens from "Transfigurations" are presumably very old to,
explaining their evolution to an energy-based lifeform.
> - everybody's at the same level of technology (see comments by
> Carl Sagan and other space scientists/SETI experts about this).
>
> --
> Andrew B. Crisp
> JCET
> NBCC Moncton
> Part-Time Science Fiction writer
--
Matthew Melmon
In article <Pine.SUN.3.94.970321163230.9903A-100000@sunbird>,
<cknu...@sunflowr.usd.edu> wrote:
> Actualy Babylon 5 is copying DS9 and Star Trek in general. Look at the
> shadows, the can CLOAK. That was done on Star Trek over 30 years ago.
> Who is copying who now?
Technically, Babylon 5 is only copying the effect of fading
in and out of space - a tad unfortunate, granted. In fact,
they are wiggling into hyperspace. It seems that an awful
lot of people make this mistake - we went through a very
long discussion of it early in the series. A different
effect should have been chosen.
Gerwyn Evans
>> >I see the season-long concept of all the
>> >races on B5 coming together to beat the Shadows has been copied by
>> >DS9. On the episode that showed the Dominion coming through the
>> >wormhole, they also showed the Romulans teaming up to fight the
>> >"unstoppable" Dominion.
>>
>> "the Uneasy Alliance" or "the Strange Bedfellows Schtick."
Did someone say 'Battle of Mordor'? <g,d&rf>
--
Gerwyn Evans / Wyld Karde
Playing the game of life with a marked deck.
Stephen
Matthew Melmon wrote:
>
> In article <Pine.SUN.3.94.970321163230.9903A-100000@sunbird>,
> <cknu...@sunflowr.usd.edu> wrote:
>
> > Actualy Babylon 5 is copying DS9 and Star Trek in general. Look at the
> > shadows, the can CLOAK. That was done on Star Trek over 30 years ago.
> > Who is copying who now?
Cloaking, ugh. The shadow ships are going into hyperspace, not cloaking. A
ST ship would probably mistake a shadow-ships fade-out as a phase cloak, as the
ship can then go through solid barriers without difficulty. They would be wrong
of course, but the Feds are a few billion years behind the shadows on the
learning curve.
All of the first ones have different ways of going into hyperspace, each
with a different visual effect. All of the younger races use a method that looks
exactly like the Vorlon method, which may be because of the Vorlons tampering
with their development. (Pure theory)
> Technically, Babylon 5 is only copying the effect of fading
> in and out of space - a tad unfortunate, granted. In fact,
> they are wiggling into hyperspace. It seems that an awful
> lot of people make this mistake - we went through a very
> long discussion of it early in the series. A different
> effect should have been chosen.
Since when is "fading" owned by any one group? Is Morphing owned by any one
sci-fi? ST DS9 is ripping off Terminator 2!
Joe Blayde
Andrew Crisp wrote:
>
> I think Mr. Blayde's point is that DS9 had it's own story to tell, but
> (perhaps in an attempt to woo B5 viewers) the producers started to
> change the story. DS9 started out as a regular episodic series, much
> like ST: original and ST: next generation; I personally found seasons
> one, two and three quite enjoyable. Seasons four and five (the present
> one) are more and more blatant in their "non-originality". I don't have
> a whole lot of time here, so I'll post more detailed commentary at a
> later time.
>
That is the point I'm trying to make. B5 Is becoming more popular
and the producers of DS9 want to "reclaim" viewers. This is a stupid
concept since most sience fiction fans watch both shows. I know I do.
Joe Blayde
I started this message and I can confirm that I'm not gay. Usually
the first person who calls someone gay usually have a definite
homosexual urges or so the shrinks tell us. Not that there's anything
wrong with you being gay, BTW.
Joe
John F. B.
In article <3332FA...@nbcc.nb.ca>, mo03...@nbcc.nb.ca says...
>There are also other "similarities", such as the (failed) military coup
>on Earth in DS9 (like Clark's successful conspiracy?),
Well they same man was involved in two military coup attempts in both shows!
I tell ya, I just don't trust that guy!
--
'Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.'
j...@uakron.edu
John F. B.
In article <333168...@erols.com>, rich...@erols.com says...
>And both stole it from Star Wars. The DS9 version is a logical evolution of
>existing technology on that show. The B5 version was "hey look at the cool
sfx".
And Star Wars got it from...????? Hell, Asimov used a "trimensional" video
communications system - back in books written in the early 50's! And I don't
know where he got it from. Holographic comm hasn't been an original concept for
at least approx. 50 years! I don't see this as an example of one show copying
another or cool sfx (since the Minbari use holographics on their ships all the
time).
John F. B.
In article <3332F9...@earthlink.net>, merli...@earthlink.net says...
>IMHO Babylon 5 is not only better than DS9, it is an order of magnitude
>better. I am a fan of both. I would bail on DS9 in a flash to see
>Babyon 5 if I had to make the choice.
The way this season is going, I've thought about that. IMHO that Risa ep was
the worst DS9 ever.
>I also feel that ST: Voyager is far worse than DS9.
No argument there!
>However, if you want real dreck, look at the network sitcoms. Much of
>that garbage is aimed at an IQ only slightly higher than that of an
>eggplant.
Gee, don't you like "Just Shoot Me"?
John F. B.
In article <5gr609$l...@darkstar.ucsc.edu>, bas...@cats.ucsc.edu says...
>
>In article <33309F...@linex.com>, Joe Blayde <jbl...@linex.com> wrote:
>>
>> I recently saw a DS9 episode where Sisko was tracking down the
>>traitorous security officer. I was shocked to see that the Defiant will
>>now have a holographic projector on the bridge so Sisko can talk "face
>>to holographic face" with someone. This technology has been on B5 for a
>>lot longer. In the B5 episode "Walkabout" that aired last season, the
>>holo-chatter was used when someone taked to him. I think the B5 system
>>was cooler because it showed a little dude instead of a full sized dude.
>
>Trilogy. A mini-holo picture is kinda dumb on a starship bridge.
True. And a holographic communicator has enough practical applications that I
don't care whether both shows use it or who did it first. But since you state
that you don't watch B5, you shouldn't just backhandedly say that a
mini-projector is dumb on a starship. The mini-holo picture was used on a
relatively small ship designed using a combination of alien technologies, and
space was at a premium, so such a device provided a usable communications
system in a small area where a full size image wouldn't have fit (or worked
believably).
Robert Holland
cknu...@sunflowr.usd.edu wrote:
>
> Actualy Babylon 5 is copying DS9 and Star Trek in general. Look at the
> shadows, the can CLOAK. That was done on Star Trek over 30 years ago.
> in a past post by someone. If you look at all the Sci-Fi shows, They all
> have several things the same. I garentee it.
>
> John
I think this points more to television's love of convention than
to anything else. Buck Rogers had jump gates. Star Trek has
warp drive. Dune had spice pilots. These shows use shopworn
ideas and add a little visual pizzazz to make them look
cool for the screen.
It becomes a visual shorthand the storyteller can use
to haul characters from one venue to another.
--RH
Matthew Melmon
> > Technically, Babylon 5 is only copying the effect of fading
> > in and out of space - a tad unfortunate, granted. In fact,
> > they are wiggling into hyperspace. It seems that an awful
> > lot of people make this mistake - we went through a very
> > long discussion of it early in the series. A different
> > effect should have been chosen.
>
> Since when is "fading" owned by any one group? Is Morphing owned by any one
> sci-fi? ST DS9 is ripping off Terminator 2!
Take a lude.
Geeks have this thing called a "word." It's two bytes of
data. Except for when its four bytes of data. Or some
other amount. To the general population, a word is a word.
The possibility for confusion should be obvious, despite
the fact that both groups have a "right" to think of "word"
however they damn please. More people are in the general
population than the geek population. If a conversation is
going to include members of the general population, and it
is important for "word" to mean "four bytes of memory," the
geek would be well served to say, "four bytes of memory."
The flicker-fade effect has been problematic since it first
appeared because it looks *exactly* *like* what the general
population considers to be cloaking, and even in the b5
newsgroup (pre-RomperRoom), there was quite a bit of argument
about what was really going on in Coming of Shadows.
Terry L
When is using an idea from a previous TV show or movie or novel, etc
a ripoff and when is it literary alusion, homage to a great treatment
of a subject in the past? Just a thought.
Diane L. Schirf
And then there's the point at which it just becomes a different way
to state the same convention.
Lars Ormberg
John F. B. wrote:
>
> In article <3332FA...@nbcc.nb.ca>, mo03...@nbcc.nb.ca says...
>
> >There are also other "similarities", such as the (failed) military coup
> >on Earth in DS9 (like Clark's successful conspiracy?),
>
> Well they same man was involved in two military coup attempts in both shows!
> I tell ya, I just don't trust that guy!
Oh, was it the same actor who played Clark as played Leyton?
I have to pay more attention.
> --
> 'Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.'
> j...@uakron.edu
--
Kamin
Lars Ormberg wrote:
>
> John F. B. wrote:
> >
> > In article <3332FA...@nbcc.nb.ca>, mo03...@nbcc.nb.ca says...
> >
> > >There are also other "similarities", such as the (failed) military coup
> > >on Earth in DS9 (like Clark's successful conspiracy?),
> >
> > Well they same man was involved in two military coup attempts in both shows!
> > I tell ya, I just don't trust that guy!
>
> Oh, was it the same actor who played Clark as played Leyton?
>
> I have to pay more attention.
Nope, Admiral Leyton was played by Robert Foxworth, the same actor who
played General Hague on B5.
Incidently, Hague died because Foxworth chose to do Admiral Leyton,
which was shot at the same time as "Severed Dreams"