TOS vs TNG/DS9/Voy (ship technology)
Plain and Simple Cronan
I was watching Amok Time and noticed how mich *weaker* both the Federation
and Romulans ships have gotten.
In Amok Time the Romluan plasma weapon chased the Enterprise for 5 minutes
at *high* warp and till impacted with moderate damage to the hull and
shields. The Enterprise then fired yet by the Deep Space Nine-era Jem'Hadar,
Cardassian and Klingon warships must come within 10 km of the station to hit
something 3 km across.
In Amok Time the Enterprise fires phaser pulses which bare and uncanny
resmeblence to those fired by the Defiant and blankets and area of space
equal to a small star system yet the Jem'Hadar and Cardassian *fleets*
cannot blanket space and find the Defiant which they *saw* cloak on a known
heading.
Those pulses have an apparent range of several hundred million km yet
through all of TNG, DS9 and Voy every ship pulls up NEXT TO the other ship
and THEN opens fire.
No panels explode on either ship through the whole battle yet the Voyager, a
ship of some repute in the Delta Quad, has panels explode even in battles
they *win*.
At sublight the Romulan commander enters the tail of a comet. Well the E
manages to swing around what is apparently a huge comet in a matter of
seconds at sublight implying that it can indeed instaneously accelerate to
great speeds and this is comensated for.
All this and:
Not a single line of technobabble is uttered through the entire episode
Repairs are made quickly and without explanations
I think this can be blamed on two things:
1) A thorough lack of understanding of what a space battle might involve by
modern Trek writers. Having watched Top Gun and The Hunt for Red October too
many times and decided that these were super cool they have reduced every ST
ship to some strange hybrid of the two which is as satisfying as neither.
Even extrapolating using one or the other should have given them a wholly
different picture than the one they present.
2) The decrease in the cost of 'good' visual effects has facilitated the
showing of many ships at the same time. the result are the occasional pretty
battles (like those found in Caretaker, The Wounded, Redemption, ST:
Generations, Basics, Way of the Warrior, First Contact, A Call to Arms,
Raven, etc) which make zero logistical sense.
I propose that any TOS ship at operational readiness could destroy its next
generation counterpart without breaking a sweat.
-- Plain and Simple Cronan, Captain of the USS Megadittos <*>
I often find my opinions stick out like an erection in a lesbian bar
cro...@deathsdoor.com Wanna see more wise words like the above?
Get yer ass to http://gpgod.home.mindspring.com/wisdom.htm
Br. Kurt Van Kuren OSB
Plain and Simple Cronan <cro...@DeathsDoor.com> wrote in article
<61vmgp$9...@camel18.mindspring.com>...
*fascinating technical historical defense clipped*
> I propose that any TOS ship at operational readiness could destroy its
next
> generation counterpart without breaking a sweat.
>
> -- Plain and Simple Cronan, Captain of the USS Megadittos <*>
> I often find my opinions stick out like an erection in a lesbian bar
> cro...@deathsdoor.com Wanna see more wise words like the above?
> Get yer ass to http://gpgod.home.mindspring.com/wisdom.htm
Well done, indeed. That's why you're our Moderators.
Captain, you gotta slow down! I dinna know how much more stress my bearings
can take!
Plain and Simple Cronan
(I screwed up in the orginal post, sorry)
I was watching Balance of Terror and noticed how mich *weaker* both the
Federation and Romulan ships have gotten.
In Balance of Terror the Romluan plasma weapon chased the Enterprise for 5
minutes at *high* warp and still impacted with moderate damage to the hull
and shields. The Enterprise turned moved back a for a minute or two at
roughly the same warp factor and then fired yet by the Deep Space Nine-era
Jem'Hadar(in A Call to Arms), Cardassian(The Emissary) and Klingon
warships(Way of the Warrior) must come within 10 km of the station to hit
something 3 km across.
In Balance of Terror the Enterprise fires phaser pulses, which bare and
uncanny resemblence to those fired by the Defiant, and blankets and area of
space that must be equal to a small star system yet the Jem'Hadar and
Cardassian *fleets* cannot blanket space and find the Defiant which they
*saw* cloak on a known heading in A Call to Arms.
Those pulses have an apparent range of several hundred million km yet
through all of TNG, DS9 and Voy every ship pulls up NEXT TO the other ship
and THEN opens fire. No panels explode on either ship through the whole
battle yet the Voyager, a ship of some repute in the Delta Quad, has panels
explode even in battles they *win*.
At sublight the Romulan commander enters the tail of a comet. Well the E
manages to swing around what is apparently a huge comet in a matter of
seconds at sublight implying that it can indeed instaneously accelerate to
great speeds and this is comensated for. This also seems to make it as
manueverable as the Defiant.
All this and:
Not a single line of technobabble is uttered through the entire episode
Repairs are made quickly and without explanations. No one takes the time, as
Geordi did in Yesterday's Enterprise, walk towards the camera, stick their
mug in it, and yell the condition to no one in particular VERY loudly.
I think this can be blamed on two things:
1) A thorough lack of understanding of what a space battle might involve
coupled with complete ignorance of today's military by modern Trek writers.
Having watched Top Gun and The Hunt for Red October too many times and
decided that these were super cool they have made every ST ship into a
strange hybrid of the two(nukesubs and airplanes) which is as satisfying as
neither. Even extrapolating using one or the other should have given them a
wholly different picture than the one they seem to have.
2) The decrease in the cost of 'good' visual effects has facilitated the
showing of many ships at the same time. The result is the occasional pretty
battle (like those found in Caretaker, The Wounded, Redemption, ST:
Generations, Basics, Way of the Warrior, First Contact, A Call to Arms,
Raven, etc) which make zero logistical sense.
I propose that any TOS ship at operational readiness could destroy its next
Michael Meric
I'm *very* interested in this article, but, can respectfully ask that the
wording be filled out a bit. I'm having trouble following the flow.
Thanks much,
Michael Meric
PS I thought the TOS Romulan episode with M. Lenard et al had a different
name?! Are you calling it Amok Time?
In article <61vmgp$9...@camel18.mindspring.com>, "Plain and Simple Cronan"
<cro...@DeathsDoor.com> wrote:
>I was watching Amok Time and noticed how mich *weaker* both the Federation
>and Romulans ships have gotten.
>
>In Amok Time the Romluan plasma weapon chased the Enterprise for 5 minutes
>at *high* warp and till impacted with moderate damage to the hull and
>shields. The Enterprise then fired yet by the Deep Space Nine-era
Jem'Hadar,
>Cardassian and Klingon warships must come within 10 km of the station to
hit
>something 3 km across.
>
>In Amok Time the Enterprise fires phaser pulses which bare and uncanny
>resmeblence to those fired by the Defiant and blankets and area of space
>equal to a small star system yet the Jem'Hadar and Cardassian *fleets*
>cannot blanket space and find the Defiant which they *saw* cloak on a known
>heading.
>
>Those pulses have an apparent range of several hundred million km yet
>through all of TNG, DS9 and Voy every ship pulls up NEXT TO the other ship
>and THEN opens fire.
>
>No panels explode on either ship through the whole battle yet the Voyager,
a
>ship of some repute in the Delta Quad, has panels explode even in battles
>they *win*.
>
>At sublight the Romulan commander enters the tail of a comet. Well the E
>manages to swing around what is apparently a huge comet in a matter of
>seconds at sublight implying that it can indeed instaneously accelerate to
>great speeds and this is comensated for.
>
>All this and:
>
>Not a single line of technobabble is uttered through the entire episode
>
>Repairs are made quickly and without explanations
>
>I think this can be blamed on two things:
>
>1) A thorough lack of understanding of what a space battle might involve by
>modern Trek writers. Having watched Top Gun and The Hunt for Red October
too
>many times and decided that these were super cool they have reduced every
ST
>ship to some strange hybrid of the two which is as satisfying as neither.
>Even extrapolating using one or the other should have given them a wholly
>different picture than the one they present.
>
>2) The decrease in the cost of 'good' visual effects has facilitated the
>showing of many ships at the same time. the result are the occasional
pretty
>battles (like those found in Caretaker, The Wounded, Redemption, ST:
>Generations, Basics, Way of the Warrior, First Contact, A Call to Arms,
>Raven, etc) which make zero logistical sense.
>
>I propose that any TOS ship at operational readiness could destroy its next
>generation counterpart without breaking a sweat.
>
Tim
I thought I would give you a friendly warning before those idiots started
flaming you with your errors. Read on:
Plain and Simple Cronan wrote:
> I was watching Amok Time and noticed how mich *weaker* both the Federation
> and Romulans ships have gotten.
I think you mean "Balance of Terror." "Amok Time" was the one when Spock had to
return to Vulcan to mate or Die. There were no ship battles in that epsiode.
As for your observatuins, I agree with you. Just Get the Amok Tine
refferences out before they flame you.
-- Tim
David Gerstl
Plain and Simple Cronan (cro...@DeathsDoor.com) wrote:
: (I screwed up in the orginal post, sorry)
:
: decided that these were super cool they have made every ST ship into a
: strange hybrid of the two(nukesubs and airplanes) which is as satisfying as
: neither. Even extrapolating using one or the other should have given them a
Maybe, but I think they went a bit far in balance: They copied the sub scenario
so exactly that everyone was whispering. Still cracks me up.
--
---------------
David S. Gerstl
ger...@cs.sunysb.edu
[a loose conglomeration of cellular entities united towards a common
(if obscure) purpose ]
Plain and Simple Cronan
>I think you mean "Balance of Terror." "Amok Time" was the one when Spock
had to
>return to Vulcan to mate or Die. There were no ship battles in that
epsiode.
Corrected it in another post
>> ship to some strange hybrid of the two which is as satisfying as neither.
>> Even extrapolating using one or the other should have given them a wholly
Scottty
"Plain and Simple Cronan" <cro...@DeathsDoor.com> wrote:
>I was watching Amok Time and noticed how mich *weaker* both the Federation
>and Romulans ships have gotten.
Sure looks that way sometimes....
Phasers and P-torps were a LOT weaker in the movies than in TOS.
>In Amok Time the Romluan plasma weapon chased the Enterprise for 5 minutes
>at *high* warp and till impacted with moderate damage to the hull and
>shields. The Enterprise then fired yet by the Deep Space Nine-era Jem'Hadar,
>Cardassian and Klingon warships must come within 10 km of the station to hit
>something 3 km across.
"Amok Time"? Surely you mean "Balance of Terror"?
it sound slike you are desribing the E-nil's 1st encounter with a
cloaked Romulan Bird-of-Prey.
Anyway, that Plasma Morter was one heck of a weapon. I can't believe
the Romulans would give up on something that good, unless they'd come
up with something even better.
( BIG HINT here for the DS9 scriptwriters: show us a Romulan
superweapon! Pretty PLEASE!!!!)
>In Amok Time the Enterprise fires phaser pulses which bare and uncanny
>resmeblence to those fired by the Defiant and blankets and area of space
>equal to a small star system yet the Jem'Hadar and Cardassian *fleets*
>cannot blanket space and find the Defiant which they *saw* cloak on a known
>heading.
The people who are now in charge of making new "Trek" eps openly admit
they never watched TOS. I think they should have!
>Those pulses have an apparent range of several hundred million km yet
>through all of TNG, DS9 and Voy every ship pulls up NEXT TO the other ship
>and THEN opens fire.
I think they look closer than they are, It wouldn't be so dramatic if
that biig scary Warbird/Neg'Var/Borg Cube was just a tiny little speck
in the distance.
And phaser beams should be invisible in open space.
>No panels explode on either ship through the whole battle yet the Voyager, a
>ship of some repute in the Delta Quad, has panels explode even in battles
>they *win*.
And plenty of nameless Ensigns and crewmen to get killed.
>At sublight the Romulan commander enters the tail of a comet. Well the E
>manages to swing around what is apparently a huge comet in a matter of
>seconds at sublight implying that it can indeed instaneously accelerate to
>great speeds and this is comensated for.
you quite definately ARE talking about "Balance of Terror".
>All this and:
>Not a single line of technobabble is uttered through the entire episode
>Repairs are made quickly and without explanations
Gene Roddenbury was a better writer than the modern bunch.
>I think this can be blamed on two things:
>1) A thorough lack of understanding of what a space battle might involve by
>modern Trek writers. Having watched Top Gun and The Hunt for Red October too
>many times and decided that these were super cool they have reduced every ST
>ship to some strange hybrid of the two which is as satisfying as neither.
>Even extrapolating using one or the other should have given them a wholly
>different picture than the one they present.
A "Realistic" space battle might not be very dramatic. Probably it
would all be over far too soon.
Anyway, when 2 seperate spacegoing civilizations meet, one side should
be so far more advanced than the other, that it would be no contest.
There are far too many Trek races that all just happen to be at
more-or-less the same tech level.
Of course, that would make the show less interesting. If alien races
were all either invincible or harmless, it would get boring.
>2) The decrease in the cost of 'good' visual effects has facilitated the
>showing of many ships at the same time. the result are the occasional pretty
>battles (like those found in Caretaker, The Wounded, Redemption, ST:
>Generations, Basics, Way of the Warrior, First Contact, A Call to Arms,
>Raven, etc) which make zero logistical sense.
Yup. Even in World War 2 fleet battles they didn't need to get that
close. They could target the other ship when it was just a grey smudge
on the horizon.
It seems to me that the DS9 people are making an almost deliberate
effort to make it less and less like TOS/TNG. and more and more like
StarWars. Notice how a lot of the SW-fans think the Defiant is a cool
ship. It appeals more to that market.
>I propose that any TOS ship at operational readiness could destroy its next
>generation counterpart without breaking a sweat.
Looks that way.
Therer are SOME TNG episodes that give a different picture though....
++++++++++++++++++++
Gates and company talk about total cost of ownership and never
once take responsibility for the fact that Microsoft has created an
operating system that encourages sloppy practices and continuously
degraded performance.
The situation is unacceptable, and we as users cannot complain
about it enough .... John Dvorak
Robert Oliver
> IIRC, the Romulan Bird of Prey in "Balance of Terror" is said to have no
> warp drive. Perhaps we may rationalise this today by saying "Oh it wasn't
> a *warp* drive, but another type of FTL drive", but I'm pretty sure that
> when it was written and produced, it was conceived as a sub-light battle.
> I've heard this episode compare to old submarine battle films, but am not
> sure who (first) made this analogy. A slow game of cat-and-mouse.
There are major problems in BoT regarding the speeds of the two ships
and the distances they are supposed to be travelling. I recall that
there might be a problem with the speed at which Enterprise was using at
the beginning of the episode as well in regards to an on-screen computer
display showing her position. Of course no one would grill the TOS
writers and pin them to a wall the way current Trek writers are. Nope.
Just not done.
--
Robert Oliver (rol...@mint.net)
Big Country: Steeltown (http://www.mint.net/~roliver/bc-mint.htm)
A Guide to the Star Trek Universe
(http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/6053/)
Ruediger Landmann
I concur with most of this, but...
Plain and Simple Cronan (cro...@DeathsDoor.com) wrote:
: In Amok Time the Romluan plasma weapon chased the Enterprise for 5 minutes
: at *high* warp
IIRC, the Romulan Bird of Prey in "Balance of Terror" is said to have no
warp drive. Perhaps we may rationalise this today by saying "Oh it wasn't
a *warp* drive, but another type of FTL drive", but I'm pretty sure that
when it was written and produced, it was conceived as a sub-light battle.
I've heard this episode compare to old submarine battle films, but am not
sure who (first) made this analogy. A slow game of cat-and-mouse.
(If the BoP was only a sublight ship, the cloak being its only real
combat advantage, this might imply a larger carrier-ship lurking nearby??)
Plain and Simple Cronan
Robert Oliver wrote
>There are major problems in BoT regarding the speeds of the two ships
>and the distances they are supposed to be travelling. I recall that
>there might be a problem with the speed at which Enterprise was using at
>the beginning of the episode as well in regards to an on-screen computer
>display showing her position. Of course no one would grill the TOS
>writers and pin them to a wall the way current Trek writers are. Nope.
>Just not done.
Not true. We are told the Romulan ship uses simple impulse power( which
basically means fusion) as opposed to matter/antimatter. The ships both
clealry travel at FTL speeds at several instances.
Plain and Simple Cronan
Ruediger Landmann
>IIRC, the Romulan Bird of Prey in "Balance of Terror" is said to have no
>warp drive. Perhaps we may rationalise this today by saying "Oh it wasn't
>a *warp* drive, but another type of FTL drive", but I'm pretty sure that
>when it was written and produced, it was conceived as a sub-light battle.
>I've heard this episode compare to old submarine battle films, but am not
>sure who (first) made this analogy. A slow game of cat-and-mouse.
I corrected this is a response.
>(If the BoP was only a sublight ship, the cloak being its only real
>combat advantage, this might imply a larger carrier-ship lurking nearby??)
Nope. The BoP only had impulse *power* engines(this is fusion).. It moved at
FTL velocties at least 7 seperate times. The Enterprise could outrun them
yes but this was because their FTL was powered by matter/antimatter.
Ruediger Landmann
Plain and Simple Cronan (cro...@DeathsDoor.com) wrote:
: I corrected this is a response.
Sorry- response hadn't come through yet. (In fact, still hasn't). I've got
a sucky newsfeed here.
: Nope. The BoP only had impulse *power* engines(this is fusion).. It moved at
: FTL velocties at least 7 seperate times. The Enterprise could outrun them
: yes but this was because their FTL was powered by matter/antimatter.
OK - I'd have to go check the episode again. It was just a wild
speculation.
Ruediger Landmann
Scottty (sco...@KILL-SPAM.ilink.nis.za) wrote:
: Anyway, that Plasma Morter was one heck of a weapon. I can't believe
: the Romulans would give up on something that good, unless they'd come
: up with something even better.
Unless, of course, it turned out to be a dead-end technology. Perhaps
shield technology outstripped it and rendered it obsolete, or there's
something in its basic operating principle that makes further development
impossible/unfeasible, or tactics designed to counter it were simply too
effective. It made a big bang, but its relatively slow speed (compared to
a phaser or photorp) and range limitation seemed problematic, especially
for what seemed to be an unguided weapon. OTOH, maybe the Roms still have
them for specific circumstances (like attacking surface targets?)
: Gene Roddenbury was a better writer than the modern bunch.
Roddenberry didn't write "Balance of Terror"...
: Looks that way.
: Therer are SOME TNG episodes that give a different picture though....
Such as the scene in BoBW 1 when we see the E-D "fire all weapons"...
Plain and Simple Cronan
Scottty wrote
Your one of my FAVORITE induhviduals Scottty! Let's play.
>Sure looks that way sometimes....
It is that way.
>Phasers and P-torps were a LOT weaker in the movies than in TOS.
And?
>"Amok Time"? Surely you mean "Balance of Terror"?
>it sound slike you are desribing the E-nil's 1st encounter with a
>cloaked Romulan Bird-of-Prey.
I correct this is the post marked in big letters CORRECTED.
>Anyway, that Plasma Morter was one heck of a weapon. I can't believe
>the Romulans would give up on something that good, unless they'd come
>up with something even better.
>( BIG HINT here for the DS9 scriptwriters: show us a Romulan
>superweapon! Pretty PLEASE!!!!)
That was apparently the orginal disruptor weapon according to Spock's
briefing.
>The people who are now in charge of making new "Trek" eps openly admit
>they never watched TOS. I think they should have!
What eexactly does this have to do with incompetence? Are we expected to
believe that writers, after watching or reading something cogent, will
automatically become so? Your own theroy would appear to have a hole in it.
You.
>I think they look closer than they are, It wouldn't be so dramatic if
>that biig scary Warbird/Neg'Var/Borg Cube was just a tiny little speck
>in the distance.
>
>And phaser beams should be invisible in open space.
Why? They are not light. LASERs would be invisible not phasers.
>you quite definately ARE talking about "Balance of Terror".
Well no shit Sherlock.
>Gene Roddenbury was a better writer than the modern bunch.
Gene didn't write this episode
>A "Realistic" space battle might not be very dramatic. Probably it
>would all be over far too soon.
Yes it was. See Balance of Terror.
>Anyway, when 2 seperate spacegoing civilizations meet, one side should
>be so far more advanced than the other, that it would be no contest.
>There are far too many Trek races that all just happen to be at
>more-or-less the same tech level.
You should be proud Scottty. You have managed to make an observation that
has only been made about 407 times before. .
>Therer are SOME TNG episodes that give a different picture though....
Like?
James Grady Ward
Plain and Simple Cronan wrote:
>
> I was watching Amok Time and noticed how mich *weaker* both the Federation
> and Romulans ships have gotten.
>
> shields. The Enterprise then fired yet by the Deep Space Nine-era Jem'Hadar,
> Cardassian and Klingon warships must come within 10 km of the station to hit
> something 3 km across.
Small detail, the TOS you are refering to is "Balance of Terror".
Amok Time is Spock's wedding/Pon Farr episode.
--
buckysan
annapuma and unapumma in 98
44% of people think there is intelligent life besides earth
44% of people think there is intelligent life in washington DC
Mike Dicenso
On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Plain and Simple Cronan wrote:
> >Anyway, that Plasma Morter was one heck of a weapon. I can't believe
> >the Romulans would give up on something that good, unless they'd come
> >up with something even better.
> >( BIG HINT here for the DS9 scriptwriters: show us a Romulan
> >superweapon! Pretty PLEASE!!!!)
>
> That was apparently the orginal disruptor weapon according to Spock's
> briefing.
Where'd you get that idea? Spock discribes it only in the following way,
"lab theorizes an enveloping plasma". He says nothing about distuption, or
it being a form of disruptor. The ST Encyclopedia entry describes
distruptors this way;
"Distruptor. *Directed*- energy weapon used by Romulans, Klingons, and
other races. ("Tin Man"[TNG]). The Klingon distruptor was also known as a
PHASE DISTRUPTOR. ("Aquiel"[TNG]). SEE: Klingon weapons. Romulan
distruptor fire can be identified by a high residule of antiprotons that
can linger for hours"
The plasma torpedo was a guided weapon that appeared much slower than a
photon torpedo, and the E-nil was able to say ahead of it at it's maximum
warp for at least a minute, and as Sulu pointed out it could have been
dedonated with a single shot from the phasers(they were damaged at the
time of course). It also had a very limited range compared with PTs and
phasers when used at sublight or warp.
-Mike
David Gerstl
Ruediger Landmann (s30...@student.uq.edu.au) wrote:
: Scottty (sco...@KILL-SPAM.ilink.nis.za) wrote:
:
: : Anyway, that Plasma Morter was one heck of a weapon. I can't believe
: : the Romulans would give up on something that good, unless they'd come
: : up with something even better.
: Unless, of course, it turned out to be a dead-end technology. Perhaps
Remember the line from "Balance..", "One phaser shot would detonate it". If true
a ship in reasonable condition should be able to detonate it the second it sees it
and get away w/o much damage.
WRobert525
>Subject: TOS vs TNG/DS9/Voy (ship technology)(corrected)
>From: "Plain and Simple Cronan" <cro...@DeathsDoor.com>
>Date: Tue, Oct 14, 1997 12:34 EDT
>Message-id: <6206ta$k...@camel18.mindspring.com>
>
>(I screwed up in the orginal post, sorry)
*Knew what you were talking about. No biggie.
>
>I was watching Balance of Terror and noticed how mich *weaker* both the
>Federation and Romulan ships have gotten.
>
>In Balance of Terror the Romluan plasma weapon chased the Enterprise for 5
>minutes at *high* warp and still impacted with moderate damage to the hull
>and shields. The Enterprise turned moved back a for a minute or two at
>roughly the same warp factor and then fired yet by the Deep Space Nine-era
>Jem'Hadar(in A Call to Arms), Cardassian(The Emissary) and Klingon
>warships(Way of the Warrior) must come within 10 km of the station to hit
>something 3 km across.
*Heh. Except for the dramatic effect of having many ships
buzzing around the station, the Klingon and Dominion fleets
in WoTW and CTA, respectively, should not have had to close
in as they did. In the case of "The Emissary", someone will
probably tell you that the Cardassian ships didn't have anything
to worry about from the station. But the other two eps. are good
examples of possible limited range weapons.
>
>In Balance of Terror the Enterprise fires phaser pulses, which bare and
>uncanny resemblence to those fired by the Defiant, and blankets and area of
>space that must be equal to a small star system yet the Jem'Hadar and
>Cardassian *fleets* cannot blanket space and find the Defiant which they
>*saw* cloak on a known heading in A Call to Arms.
*That fleet _was_ primarily concerned with "occupying" the
station at the time - as I would be, for fear that the Federation
would send reinforcements to DS9 - but as always, you're
on to something.
>
>Those pulses have an apparent range of several hundred million km yet
>through all of TNG, DS9 and Voy every ship pulls up NEXT TO the other ship
>and THEN opens fire. No panels explode on either ship through the whole
>battle yet the Voyager, a ship of some repute in the Delta Quad, has panels
>explode even in battles they *win*.
*I especially liked it when the E-D and the "Children of Tanagra"
ship were practically on top of each other, sitting totally still,
and were just trading blows. Can't remember how many panels
blew out in that one.
>
>At sublight the Romulan commander enters the tail of a comet. Well the E
>manages to swing around what is apparently a huge comet in a matter of
>seconds at sublight implying that it can indeed instaneously accelerate to
>great speeds and this is comensated for. This also seems to make it as
>manueverable as the Defiant.
>
>All this and:
>
>Not a single line of technobabble is uttered through the entire episode
*Nice for a change.
>
>Repairs are made quickly and without explanations. No one takes the time, as
>Geordi did in Yesterday's Enterprise, walk towards the camera, stick their
>mug in it, and yell the condition to no one in particular VERY loudly.
*Heh.
>
>I think this can be blamed on two things:
>
>1) A thorough lack of understanding of what a space battle might involve
>coupled with complete ignorance of today's military by modern Trek writers.
>Having watched Top Gun and The Hunt for Red October too many times and
>decided that these were super cool they have made every ST ship into a
>strange hybrid of the two(nukesubs and airplanes) which is as satisfying as
>neither. Even extrapolating using one or the other should have given them a
>wholly different picture than the one they seem to have.
*The effects people are also to shoulder some of this burden.
>
>2) The decrease in the cost of 'good' visual effects has facilitated the
>showing of many ships at the same time. The result is the occasional pretty
>battle (like those found in Caretaker, The Wounded, Redemption, ST:
>Generations, Basics, Way of the Warrior, First Contact, A Call to Arms,
>Raven, etc) which make zero logistical sense.
>
>I propose that any TOS ship at operational readiness could destroy its next
>generation counterpart without breaking a sweat.
*Well that might be a *slight* stretch. In the same episode,
the E-nil was having great trouble in destroying the _cloaked_, unshielded
BoP--and we know for certain that the E had several at least near-direct hits
on the Romulans. (As evidenced by the damage seen on their bridge.) So in
regard to firepower,
TNG Fed. ships have done better in ship to ship battles.
One thing that conclusion does not consider, however, is the
possible and relative toughness of the BoP.
A non-canonical source that escapes me maintained that the original Rommie BoP
was extremely well-armored. So it is possible that the E-nil in that ep. had
decent enough phasers: they just couldn't overwhelmingly beat the BoP armor.
(Sounds a little like the Defiant/ablative armor. Maybe your theory that the
Defiant design was orig. Romulan isn't too far off base.) We've
certainly seen powerful weapons fail to destroy unshielded
DS9 and TNG ships, so I'd hardly hold this against TOS ship
tech.
Good argument, almost amusing--it's not hard to imagine an old Romulan Bird of
Prey destroying DS9 from 1,000,000 km. distance
w/ Balance of Terror in mind. Don't want that to happen, though!
This season should be very good if the premiere is an indicator.
Sephiroth killer,
-Sean
Jack Bohn
s30...@student.uq.edu.au (Ruediger Landmann) wrote:
>Scottty (sco...@KILL-SPAM.ilink.nis.za) wrote:
>
>: Anyway, that Plasma Morter was one heck of a weapon. I can't believe
>: the Romulans would give up on something that good, unless they'd come
>: up with something even better.
>
>Unless, of course, it turned out to be a dead-end technology. Perhaps
>shield technology outstripped it and rendered it obsolete, or there's
>something in its basic operating principle that makes further development
>impossible/unfeasible, or tactics designed to counter it were simply too
>effective. It made a big bang, but its relatively slow speed (compared to
>a phaser or photorp) and range limitation seemed problematic, especially
>for what seemed to be an unguided weapon. OTOH, maybe the Roms still have
>them for specific circumstances (like attacking surface targets?)
>
Unguided? While the E was backing up they didn't think to angle to
one side or the other? Even though it looked like a cloud of
gasses, it probably could track the ship (maybe by static
electricity like ball lightning? :)
The main deficiency is that it loses strength with distance. Better
acceleration on new ships or battles conducted at high warp and it's
only fireworks.
And a low rate of fire, too. Why? Too energy intensive, or just
weapon cycle time? It could be that the "torpedo" casing is too
large/they don't carry many, but I always thought of it as an energy
based weapon.
But it still should be efective against slow or non-moving targets,
perhaps they have specialist ships for planetary bombardment or Deep
Space Station assaults. Well, it would have been neat.
-Jack
SPAMblock in effect (*sigh*)
can be reached through jackbohn@bright dot net
Plain and Simple Cronan
David Gerstl wrote
>Maybe, but I think they went a bit far in balance: They copied the sub
scenario
>so exactly that everyone was whispering. Still cracks me up.
When exactly? I don't remember whisper though?
James Grady Ward
Jack Bohn wrote:
>
> >Scottty (sco...@KILL-SPAM.ilink.nis.za) wrote:
> >
> >: Anyway, that Plasma Morter was one heck of a weapon. I can't believe
> >: the Romulans would give up on something that good, unless they'd come
> >: up with something even better.
> >
> >Unless, of course, it turned out to be a dead-end technology. Perhaps
> >shield technology outstripped it and rendered it obsolete, or there's
> >something in its basic operating principle that makes further development
> >impossible/unfeasible, or tactics designed to counter it were simply too
> >effective. It made a big bang, but its relatively slow speed (compared to
> >a phaser or photorp) and range limitation seemed problematic, especially
> >for what seemed to be an unguided weapon. OTOH, maybe the Roms still have
> >them for specific circumstances (like attacking surface targets?)
> >
>
> Unguided? While the E was backing up they didn't think to angle to
> one side or the other?
They went into emergency reverse. Turning would have slowed the
ship down. So they could get the most distance by flying straight
backwards.
> The main deficiency is that it loses strength with distance. Better
> acceleration on new ships or battles conducted at high warp and it's
> only fireworks.
> And a low rate of fire, too. Why? Too energy intensive, or just
> weapon cycle time? It could be that the "torpedo" casing is too
> large/they don't carry many, but I always thought of it as an energy
> based weapon.
Its energy usage is supposed to be why they had to decloak
to fire it. It simply took too much energy to fire the weapon
and stay cloaked. Also, it appears to only be firable
from the front of the ship.
--
buckysan
annapuma and unapumma in 98
44% of people think there is intelligent life besides earth
44% of people think there is intelligent life in washington DC
.
Gordon McKenzie
James Grady Ward wrote:
>
> Jack Bohn wrote:
> >
> > >Scottty (sco...@KILL-SPAM.ilink.nis.za) wrote:
> > >
> > >: Anyway, that Plasma Morter was one heck of a weapon. I can't believe
> > >: the Romulans would give up on something that good, unless they'd come
> > >: up with something even better.
> > >
> > >Unless, of course, it turned out to be a dead-end technology. Perhaps
> > >shield technology outstripped it and rendered it obsolete, or there's
> > >something in its basic operating principle that makes further development
> > >impossible/unfeasible, or tactics designed to counter it were simply too
> > >effective. It made a big bang, but its relatively slow speed (compared to
> > >a phaser or photorp) and range limitation seemed problematic, especially
> > >for what seemed to be an unguided weapon. OTOH, maybe the Roms still have
> > >them for specific circumstances (like attacking surface targets?)
> > >
> >
> > Unguided? While the E was backing up they didn't think to angle to
> > one side or the other?
>
> They went into emergency reverse. Turning would have slowed the
> ship down. So they could get the most distance by flying straight
> backwards.
The other idea is that it was an experimental weapon loaded onto an
experimental ship that was destroyed ie it failed. Likely the Romulans
took this failure of the ship to return as a failure of the weapon and
discarded it.
>
> > The main deficiency is that it loses strength with distance. Better
> > acceleration on new ships or battles conducted at high warp and it's
> > only fireworks.
> > And a low rate of fire, too. Why? Too energy intensive, or just
> > weapon cycle time? It could be that the "torpedo" casing is too
> > large/they don't carry many, but I always thought of it as an energy
> > based weapon.
>
> Its energy usage is supposed to be why they had to decloak
> to fire it. It simply took too much energy to fire the weapon
> and stay cloaked. Also, it appears to only be firable
> from the front of the ship.
Most cloaked ships de-cloak on firing torpedoes, phasers etc. I think
the only one that fire cloaked was the Klingon in Undiscovered (whatever
the movie name was). There have likely been others, but it was not the
norm.
JRDeli...@worldnet.att.net
In article <6251ev$u...@camel21.mindspring.com>,
At one point in Balance of Terror, based on that the Bird can't
"see" outside its own cloak (only use passive sensors)
Kirk tries to lure it into revealing itself (which come
to think of it could mean either decloak or turn on
active sensors) by running silent -- until Mr. Spock
trips up at the console and gives them up: a *very* WWII scenario!
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Plain and Simple Cronan
Mike Dicenso wrote
>Where'd you get that idea? Spock discribes it only in the following way,
>"lab theorizes an enveloping plasma". He says nothing about distuption, or
>it being a form of disruptor. The ST Encyclopedia entry describes
>distruptors this way;
No, he did not specifically say it was a disruptor but many things imply
that it was an early model thereof.
>"Distruptor. *Directed*- energy weapon used by Romulans, Klingons, and
>other races. ("Tin Man"[TNG]). The Klingon distruptor was also known as a
>PHASE DISTRUPTOR. ("Aquiel"[TNG]). SEE: Klingon weapons. Romulan
>distruptor fire can be identified by a high residule of antiprotons that
>can linger for hours"
And? The Klingon disruptor is described as phased in Generations there is a
line onboard the station indicating the nature of disruptors.
>
>The plasma torpedo was a guided weapon that appeared much slower than a
>photon torpedo, and the E-nil was able to say ahead of it at it's maximum
>warp for at least a minute, and as Sulu pointed out it could have been
>dedonated with a single shot from the phasers(they were damaged at the
>time of course). It also had a very limited range compared with PTs and
>phasers when used at sublight or warp.
That thing appeared to have a greater range that phasers. It was fired from
sublight followed the ship to warp, and followed it at high warp and was
gaining for at least 5 minutes. The thing had smaller effective range but
the range at which it could do damage was huge. Consider too that the
Enterprise had to turn around and at the same warp factor go for a little
ways before the romulan ship was in phaser range. Simply because SUlu counld
detonate doesn't mean much. If a phaser beam hit a disruptor pulse what do
you think would have happened?
John Myers
He seems to have misread your post and thought that you were referring to
TOS with the statement about the combat being a cross between "Hunt for Red
October" and "Top Gun".
In "Balance of Terror" they whispered on the Romulan ship and on the
Enterprise.
Plain and Simple Cronan <cro...@DeathsDoor.com> wrote in article
<6251ev$u...@camel21.mindspring.com>...
Timo S Saloniemi
Not to mention the fact that the plasma weapon is clearly capable of
at least warp eight. So there is no way anybody could claim that
the Romulans did not know how to build FTL engines at that time. Nor
is there any indication that they lacked that technology at the time
of the Romulan war, no matter what the books try to say.
The "simple impulse power" line might mean the ship's warp engines
were powered by a device that looked like a Fed impulse engine
(fusion reactor), just as Cronan suggests. Or then it just means that
Scotty could not detect a warp drive aboard the ship at that time,
even though such a drive existed - this would be quite understandable
if the warp drive was shut down for the purposes of directing power
to the cloak, or of minimizing the energy signature of the ship.
I agree that both ships seem to go FTL in several instances, and
I guess we should expect several surprised remarks from the Enterprise
crew if the Romulans DIDN'T go to warp in the battle. OTOH, I see
no reason why the Enterprise crew would specifically state that the
Romulan has gone to warp - going FTL seemed to be a standard part
of all tactical maneuvering in TOS, and would not warrant any
special attention as long as the helmsman could keep up with the
sudden accelerations and decelerations of the opponent.
Timo Saloniemi
Merrick Baldelli
>Most cloaked ships de-cloak on firing torpedoes, phasers etc. I think
>the only one that fire cloaked was the Klingon in Undiscovered (whatever
>the movie name was). There have likely been others, but it was not the
>norm.
Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered country...
And there has been talk about it back in the TNG groups when it
was mentioned in TUC. Many people wondered whether it would be
introduced at any time in the next season or so. (Not to mention that
there was all sorts of arguments in regards to it's introduction in the
TOS universe and yet no mention of it ever made it into the TNG
universe).
--
-=-=-/ )=*=-='=-.-'-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
_( (_ , '_ * . Merrick Baldelli
(((\ \> /_1 ` mbal...@mindspring.com
(\\\\ \_/ / http://www.mindspring.com/~mbaldelli
-=-\ /-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
\ _/
/ /
Jack Bohn
Gordon McKenzie <gor...@1.direct.ca.com> wrote:
Replying to me.
>The other idea is that it was an experimental weapon loaded onto an
>experimental ship that was destroyed ie it failed. Likely the Romulans
>took this failure of the ship to return as a failure of the weapon and
>discarded it.
>
Well, they did get a call off stating that they destroyed the
Neutral Zone outpost. (and I think the weapon was fired again in
"The Deadly Years")
And replying to James Grady Ward (whose message I haven't seen)
>> Its energy usage is supposed to be why they had to decloak
>> to fire it. It simply took too much energy to fire the weapon
>> and stay cloaked. Also, it appears to only be firable
>> from the front of the ship.
>
>Most cloaked ships de-cloak on firing torpedoes, phasers etc. I think
>the only one that fire cloaked was the Klingon in Undiscovered (whatever
>the movie name was). There have likely been others, but it was not the
>norm.
I thought the main reason to decloak was to get a weapons lock (ie
active scanners vs passive sensors) This KBoP that can "fire while
cloaked" is more propaganda glossing over its circumstances than
anything else
-Jack
SPAMblock in effect (*sigh*)
can be reached through jackbohn@bright dof net
who...@webtv.net
Interesting thread on "Balance of Terror".
I reviewed the episode. Found a fascinating exchange:
Spock: I have a blip on the motion scanner, Captain. Could be the
intruder.
Kirk: Go to full magnification.
Sulu: Full magnification,sir.
Kirk: I don't see anything. I can't understand it.
Spock: Invisibility is theoretically possible, Captain. The selective
bending
of light, but the power cost is enormous.
They may have solved the problem.
[later]
Spock: The blip has changed its heading,
Captain, in a very leisurely maneuver.
They may not be aware of us.
Kirk: Their invisibility screen may work both ways. With that kind of
power
consumption, they may not be able to see us.
[end]
This exchange reveals some interesting
things about cloaking devices in their
original configuration. It wasn't "I can see
you but you can't see me." It was
"we can't see each other".
The ship was not becoming "invisible",
it was that active sensors and "visual"
detection were blocked. Only the most
passive sensors could detect the ship.
At the same time, only the most passive
sensors on the BOP worked while the
ship was "cloaked".
What the writer wanted to do was create
a situation in which both Kirk and his
Romulan Adversary would be forced
to act and make decisions on a gut
instinct level. No technological
crutches or technobabble solutions.
Kirk and the Romulan Commander were
fighting in the dark in outer space. A situation neither Picard, Sisko,
nor Janeway
to my knowledge have ever been put in.
The current B-2 bomber has much the same problem as the Romulan BOP,
it is difficult to detect but it's also flying
pretty blind.
Paul Schneider was credited with writing the episode.
Also in this episode, Uhura left communications and took over at
navigation when the regular navigator
(a guest star) left to assist at weapons.
Sulu gave her a real leer when she came down.
Spock
> I thought the main reason to decloak was to get a weapons lock (ie
> active scanners vs passive sensors) This KBoP that can "fire while
> cloaked" is more propaganda glossing over its circumstances than
> anything else
>
> -Jack
Actually, in ST:III, Krudge had a weapons lock on the Enterprise while
cloaked. The cloak uses most of the ship's power, so there isn't enough
power for the weapons and the cloak at the same time. The telling line by
Krudge, is, I believe "Prepare to transfer power to weapons", which I read
as "Take power from the cloak, and transfer it to the weapons."
The prototype BoP in ST:VI apparently does have enough power for weapons
and cloak at the same time.
Timo S Saloniemi
In article <01bcdb5b$9db31f40$LocalHost@i-jer39> "Spock" <us...@msn.com> writes:
>
>> I thought the main reason to decloak was to get a weapons lock (ie
>> active scanners vs passive sensors) This KBoP that can "fire while
>> cloaked" is more propaganda glossing over its circumstances than
>> anything else
>Actually, in ST:III, Krudge had a weapons lock on the Enterprise while
>cloaked. The cloak uses most of the ship's power, so there isn't enough
>power for the weapons and the cloak at the same time. The telling line by
>Krudge, is, I believe "Prepare to transfer power to weapons", which I read
>as "Take power from the cloak, and transfer it to the weapons."
There is another, more aesthetically pleasing way to interpret
that line.
First, Kruge locks weapons to the Enterprise (presumably using
some sort of passive scanners since the Enteprise does not notice
this) - this is evidently possible even through the cloak, since
the viewscreen works just nicely through the cloak in STIV. At this
stage, however, he keeps the weapons cold because he fears their
energy signature will leak through the cloak and explose them.
Then the time comes to attack. The weapons are warmed up at the last
second because otherwise their high-energy leakage would ruin
the cloaking effect (just like the launch of a torpedo ruins the
cloaking effect of the BoP of General Chang). Then the cloak
is dropped (since it is now useless - it can't fool the sensors
any more, even though it makes the ship near-invisible to Mk 1
eyeballs), and firing can commence.
>The prototype BoP in ST:VI apparently does have enough power for weapons
>and cloak at the same time.
Using the above version, we can forget all about the power shortages.
Those presumably only plagued the first Romulan prototype (which
is only natural - what prototype *hasn't* suffered from underpowered
engines in the real world?). We can instead interpret the troubles
as stemming from the fact that power sources can be *seen* through
a cloak. You have to keep all your power harnessed inside your
reactor (or, better still, in your fuel tanks - tune down or turn off
the reactor), since when you pump it into your shields or high-energy
weapons, your cloak begins to leak badly.
General Chang's BoP apparently could warm up the torpedo systems
without being detected. But the actual firing could not be
camouflaged, of course - it not only explosed the ship to sensors,
but also briefly made it visible to human eye. In a normal battle,
that would be of no consequence since the launch could be observed
in any case, unless the torp itself could remain cloaked.
One has to assume that the ship COULD remain even more effectively
cloaked if it was VERY careful with the launch of the torpedo -
otherwise, the sensors of the Enterprise would easily have seen
and recorded the firing during the assassination of Chancellor Gorkon.
Presumably Chang was taking a calculated risk when firing rather
visibly at the E-A near Kithomer - the firing rate or available yield
for torps might be abysmally low when trying to maintain full cloak.
The rather modest effect of Chang's torpedoes could be explained by
saying that the torps could not be loaded to anywhere near full
yield without ruining the cloak. It's also possible to say that
the weapons, being imitations of Federation tech instead of
true Klingon weapons, were incompatible with anything other than
the tiny warheads built for the special purpose of depriving Quo'NoS
One of gravity - they simply couldn't pack more oomph even if Chang
wanted them to. An assassin's concealed homemade plastic handgun is
not the best possible weapon for fighting one's way out of the
assassination site as police with heavy guns begin pouring in...
Timo Saloniemi
sageev
Michael, in response to your P.S., yes, the episode had a different
name.. It was called "Balance of Terror" and it was bore a heavy
resemblance to some fictional story about submarine warfare.
Cronan's ideas are mostly correct, but it is also obvious that
we have to fill in the technology leaps so as to explain why
ships appear _less_ able in the future than in TOS. I may
have read Cronan's post incorrectly, but he seemed to think
that cloak technology stood still after the defeat of the
Romulans in the Balance episode, which I sincerely doubt.
In article <620irr$c...@camel19.mindspring.com>,
Michael Meric <mme...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>I'm *very* interested in this article, but, can respectfully ask that the
>wording be filled out a bit. I'm having trouble following the flow.
>
>Thanks much,
>
>Michael Meric
>
>PS I thought the TOS Romulan episode with M. Lenard et al had a different
>name?! Are you calling it Amok Time?
>
>
>In article <61vmgp$9...@camel18.mindspring.com>, "Plain and Simple Cronan"
><cro...@DeathsDoor.com> wrote:
>
>>I was watching Amok Time and noticed how mich *weaker* both the Federation
>>and Romulans ships have gotten.
>>
>>In Amok Time the Romluan plasma weapon chased the Enterprise for 5 minutes
>>at *high* warp and till impacted with moderate damage to the hull and
>>shields. The Enterprise then fired yet by the Deep Space Nine-era
>Jem'Hadar,
(Lots of Cronan's text deleted)
Sageev
pch...@phoenix.net
On 21 Oct 1997 07:47:30 GMT, tsal...@delta.hut.fi (Timo S Saloniemi)
wrote:
[snip]
>
>General Chang's BoP apparently could warm up the torpedo systems
>without being detected. But the actual firing could not be
>camouflaged, of course - it not only explosed the ship to sensors,
>but also briefly made it visible to human eye. In a normal battle,
>that would be of no consequence since the launch could be observed
>in any case, unless the torp itself could remain cloaked.
Here is another thought on this...
Chang's BoP was taking advantage of the Enterprise-A's and Excelsior's
sensor recalibration window and firing only when the they were
momentarily "blind"... I'm assuming that the E-A and Excelsior were
outfitted with Duotronic sensors like that of the E in
"Trials-and-Tribblations" and that perhaps this information was leaked
to Chang via some knowledgable Starfleet officer(s).
This would account for be momentarily exposed when firing but not
being able to be detected by sensors.
>One has to assume that the ship COULD remain even more effectively
>cloaked if it was VERY careful with the launch of the torpedo -
>otherwise, the sensors of the Enterprise would easily have seen
>and recorded the firing during the assassination of Chancellor Gorkon.
>Presumably Chang was taking a calculated risk when firing rather
>visibly at the E-A near Kithomer - the firing rate or available yield
>for torps might be abysmally low when trying to maintain full cloak.
>
>The rather modest effect of Chang's torpedoes could be explained by
>saying that the torps could not be loaded to anywhere near full
>yield without ruining the cloak.
I'm not sure I would go with "modest effect", although that may be the
highest yield a torp from a BOP can fire. The E-A took at least 18
hits and at least one "burned-through" her battered shields. I would
guess that if a Klingon K'Tinga came along the E-A may be only able to
withstand a lot fewer than that at close-quarters (and vice-versa
assuming relatively equal strengths) and that Chang's BOP did
unusually well against a cruiser.
>It's also possible to say that
>the weapons, being imitations of Federation tech instead of
>true Klingon weapons, were incompatible with anything other than
>the tiny warheads built for the special purpose of depriving Quo'NoS
>One of gravity - they simply couldn't pack more oomph even if Chang
>wanted them to.
Or possibly that the BoP was carrying actual Constitution-class Mk ?
photon torpedoes and were using cruiser-strength torpedoes against the
E-A and Excelsior.
Or firing torpedoes specially configured to have the best effect on
Federation shields, courtesy of Fed conspirators.
Just some possiblities...
Peter - uncloaking temporarily -
------------------------------------------------------------
Peter W Chung
E-Mail: pch...@phoenix.net
st...@jetson.uh.edu
Homepage: http://www.phoenix.net/~pchung
Jack Bohn
Timo S Saloniemi wrote:
>One has to assume that the ship COULD remain even more effectively
>cloaked if it was VERY careful with the launch of the torpedo -
>otherwise, the sensors of the Enterprise would easily have seen
>and recorded the firing during the assassination of Chancellor Gorkon.
Actually, during the attack on Kronos-1 the BoP does not have to be
more effectively cloaked; it is firing from a blind spot in the
Enterprise's sensors.
I am assuming that the domes at the top and bottom of the saucer are
(as Franz Joseph calls them) the space sensor arrays. Consider the
main sensor/navigational deflector as a searchlight along the ship's
path, the sensor platforms illuminate the rest of the space around
it with the exception of the "shadow" cast by the secondary hull
(partially filled by whatever Ground Control Approach sensors are
around the shuttlebay doors, but still) leaving the very bottom of
the ship uncovered.
Note this is NOT ordinarily a clear path for any attacker. Even if
you could begin a chase behind and below the E, matching its forward
speed and adding more to close the vertical gap, you are still
susceptible to its minor course corrections. Until you get within,
say, half a kilometer, even a leisurely turn by the E would swing
the shadow around faster than you could manuever to stay in it.
Only very special circumstances will allow you to get there: a
cloaked ship, a larger, uncloaked ship whose sensor image you can
hide in, conspirators on both that ship and the E, hours for them to
set up the perfect moment for you to cross those last few hundred
meters.
Even in this blind spot your options are limited. With the first
attack on the E they would be alerted to your presence (I'll leave
it to others to design a ship-killing first attack).
About tje only thing to do is what Chang did; pretend to be the E
firing. This requires the recieving ship to be in a known position
above the E such that the saucer obscures their sensors' view both
of the E's (inactive) photorp tubes and your active one. Then let
fly.
Hence the legend of the "ship that can fire while cloaked" is more a
creation of its circumstances.
(note that the E-D had less localized sensor arrays that gave fuller
coverage)
Anthony Mumm
>
> At sublight the Romulan commander enters the tail of a comet. Well the E
> manages to swing around what is apparently a huge comet in a matter of
> seconds at sublight implying that it can indeed instaneously accelerate
to
> great speeds and this is comensated for.
>
> All this and:
>
> Not a single line of technobabble is uttered through the entire episode
>
> Repairs are made quickly and without explanations
>
Snipped
> I propose that any TOS ship at operational readiness could destroy its
next
> generation counterpart without breaking a sweat.
First: off the Writer of the that episode took the best parts of my most
liked movies movie, "The Enemy Below" hense it became one of my FAV
episodes.
Second: Writers assumed you could follow and enjoy a plot without having
HOW IT WORKS IN SCI FI explained to you. By a quick explanation of,
"what would happen?" OR, "This needs replaced"
Three: Military Knowledge was more understood by a greater number of the
people back then. If your ship is faster that is a greater advantage. OR
being unseen. (I.E. a battle between a Submarine and Surface Ship.)
Also the ability of DAMAGE CONTROL. You don't have time to do a full
repair make it work by some other means IMPROVISE. (Scotty my man)
Four: Starfleet was a Military origination in the TOS not the
Quasi-military like in the NG Ship Captains were experienced in COMBAT.
NG Try to talk their way out.
Put Kirk in a Defiant class and Picard in one and Picard would be toast.
Last my opinion; The NG ships are a JOKE!!!! When you make a ship or Item
that is a, "Jack of all Trades" it almost always does none of them right.
Make A ship to do ONE JOB. Like the Defiant. Just kick A##. Make lots of
them.
You could make 30 Defiants with the materials used to make 1 Enterprise "E"
If 30 Defiants attacked 1 Sovereign it would not survive the first pass.
It would get a couple of them thats it.
TOS ships had labs but if first design Be able to fight and survive the
battle.
By better: brains/tactics/sensors/Shields/ weapons
My 2 pennies
Tony
>
David Brenner
I would have to say that since the Romulan Bird of Prey did have warp nacelles, that it did indeed have warp
drive. Scotty's line could possibly mean that the ship is currently working at impulse power. This is very
likely the case because the cloaking device took an enormous amount of energy.
Just my two cents.
Matt Mitchell
In article <3456bcfb....@news.insync.net>, pch...@phoenix.net wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:17:20 -0800, David <both...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Plain and Simple Cronan wrote:
> >>
> >> lauren michael oliver wrote
> >> >It states in the Star Trek Omnipedia that the romuulan bird of prey had
> >> >only impulse drive, no warp. The romulans got warp from the Klingons
> >> >who got cloaking technology.
> >>
> >> The STO is wrong in lots of places.
> >
> >Not about this. The Romulans got warp drive from the Klingons.
>
> Perhaps... perhaps not.
>
> The Romulans knew enough about warp to build and use a plasma
> "torpedo" that accelerated to warp speed ("Balance of Terror"). Also,
> impulse power may still be enough to affect faster-than-light speed
> but yet still significantly slower than a ship with warp power going
> to the engines...
>
Besides that, would a race that did not have warp technology pose much
threat to one that does? It doesn't seem likely to me. The warp-capable
ships could literally run rings around the sublight ships. Even if the
warp ships are forced to engage at sublight speeds, the sublight ships are
at such a supreme disadvantage that the Romulans captains, all of them, to
a man, had to be a strategic genius (on Kirk's level, at least) to
devestate the Earth fleet (pre-Federation) as described in Balance of
Terror.
Without warp speed, the Romulans would not have been able to attack
Federation outposts more than a few lightmonths from the home planet. Not
exactly a huge threat, even back in the 22nd century.
Personally, I think that the Klingons gave the Romulans better warp
technology along with ships of their own design that utilized it. The
Roms, of course, gave them the cloaking device.
Bad moves on both side, although the Klingons got the better deal.
(Another thought: didn't the Ferengi purchase warp technology from the
Romulans several centuries prior to "Little Green Men?" I could have my
timescale wrong, though).
--
Matthew G. Mitchell | The Doctor: "If you step back into history,
cloi...@earthlink.net | I won't be able to protect you."
Assignment: Macintosh | Roz: "This isn't history -- this is family."
Mac User Group | "So Vile A Sin" [Ben Aaronovitch]
lauren michael oliver
Perhaps the Romulans had some other kind of ftl travel other than warp
drive, but switched to warp when they got it from the klingons.
l...@nr.infi.net
Adrian Hurt
In article <345777...@nr.infi.net> l...@nr.infi.net writes:
>only impulse drive, no warp. The romulans got warp from the Klingons
>who got cloaking technology.
How many star systems did the Romulan Bird of Prey attack? If the answer
is anything other than "one", and if it didn't take several years doing so,
then the ship had warp drive. (Or at least, some sort of faster than light
drive.)
--
"Keyboard? How quaint!" - M. Scott
Adrian Hurt | JANET: adr...@cee.hw.ac.uk
UUCP: ..!uknet!cee.hw.ac.uk!adrian | ARPA: adr...@cee.hw.ac.uk
Rocky Steinhaus
On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:49:57 -0800, lauren michael oliver <l...@nr.infi.net>
wrote:
>David Brenner wrote:
>>
>> I would have to say that since the Romulan Bird of Prey did have warp nacelles, that it did indeed have warp
>> drive. Scotty's line could possibly mean that the ship is currently working at impulse power. This is very
>> likely the case because the cloaking device took an enormous amount of energy.
>>
>> Just my two cents.
>It states in the Star Trek Omnipedia that the romuulan bird of prey had
>only impulse drive, no warp.
That much is canon. (But only for the once craft shown in "Balance of Terror".
> The romulans got warp from the Klingons
>who got cloaking technology.
I don't find that in the Omnipedia. Where does it say that?
I still might not find it, I only recently found my misplaced registration
card, so I won't be updated for... :)
Nonetheless, the Omnipedia cannot *make* canon. It can report, and speculate,
but that's it. The TNG Tech Manual is the only book that can come close to
setting canon... but the show is free to contradict it on any point that isn't
already onscreen canon).
There were 1 or 2 bits from the TOS staff on the subject, way back when.
But, that counts for naught.
(And I only recall talk of trading cloak for more sophisticated ship design, no
mention of warp drive).
The only canon I have on the subject comes from "The Enterprise Incident".
Scott: "But.. that's a *Klingon* ship! It couldn't be. Not in this area.".
Spock: "Intellegence reports Romulans useing Klingon design".
Then in the briefing room, they have exterior scale plans of the Enterprise and
the Klingon/Romulan ship. (Profile on one screen, Overhead on another, unknown
on the third {tri screen thingy}).
Kirk: "The design of the ship is the same.".
--
ro...@rcip.com (fake address in headers)
Plain and Simple Cronan
Rocky Steinhaus wrote
>That much is canon. (But only for the once craft shown in "Balance of
Terror".
Wrong. Scotty said, "Simple Impulse *power*."
Not engines. In other words they were using fusion as opposed to
matter/antimatter annihilation.
Rocky Steinhaus
On Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:30:18 -0500, "Plain and Simple Cronan"
<cro...@DeathsDoor.com> wrote:
>
>Rocky Steinhaus wrote
>
>>That much is canon. (But only for the once craft shown in "Balance of
>Terror".
"...the once craft..."? Greif. so much for my proofreading skills.
>Wrong. Scotty said, "Simple Impulse *power*."
>
>Not engines. In other words they were using fusion as opposed to
>matter/antimatter annihilation.
>
Hmmm...
Kirk: "Can we engage them with a reasonable possibility of victory."
Scott: "No question, their power is simple impulse."
Kirk: "Meaning we can outrun them."
I hadn't considered your interpretation.
(Or a few others which that wording might suggest).
Therefore, I was *wrong*.
It isn't canon, as long as there are other possible interpretations
of the dialog.
I assumed he meant "motive power" which should be propulsion method.
You assume "power source".
But I don't think you can be conclusive, either.
Fusion is the method used in starfleet impulse drives.
But isn't it possible to achieve practical high-STL thrust with other methods?
Fission vaporising solid/liquid, for instance, or ion propulsion?
IIRC at least one canon of a TOS shuttle which used ion propulsion.
(Possibly for both warp and impulse). ("The Menagerie"?).
Starfleet engineers might equate big-ship-impulse with fusion powerplants.
(In normal speech). But we don't know that. (Or do we?).
Now I was assuming they had pulled some vital part(s) of any FTL drive in
order to get room for enough fuel for quick outpost-busting, and for the cloak.
Or something along those lines.
But.
One possible interpretation of Scotty's statement is that the Romulan ship
simply didn't have enough fuel left to run an FTL drive for an appreciable time.
That would prove me wrong in that they could have possibly used FTL up till
the last outpost they had attacked.
"No. No, he is shrewd, this starship commander. "He tries to make us to waste
energy. It is estimated we have only enough.. It is time. All debris into
disposal tubes"
They could've planned to run out their M/AM (compact and high output).
And planned it to have enough conventional fuel to STL into the safety
of the neutral zone. (With a margin for cloak and weapon, in case of battle).
Anyone who's better at the tech than I am... please correct me/comment.
Plain and Simple Cronan
Rocky Steinhaus wrote
>Hmmm...
>
>Kirk: "Can we engage them with a reasonable possibility of victory."
>Scott: "No question, their power is simple impulse."
>Kirk: "Meaning we can outrun them."
>
>I hadn't considered your interpretation.
>(Or a few others which that wording might suggest).
>
>Therefore, I was *wrong*.
>It isn't canon, as long as there are other possible interpretations
>of the dialog.
>
>I assumed he meant "motive power" which should be propulsion method.
>You assume "power source".
It can only be power source. As a method of motive power they would never
have been able to effectively a) use their weapon which moved at speeds in
excess of warp 8 from sublight b) pass from Romulan Space through the NZ
into Fed sapce and back out again.
>But I don't think you can be conclusive, either.
Yes I can. They exceed the speed of light at least 3 seperate times. Their
power was impulse their drive was FTL.
>Fusion is the method used in starfleet impulse drives.
>But isn't it possible to achieve practical high-STL thrust with other
methods?
Probably but since they were moving at FTL velocities, granted they were
slower velocties than Mr Scott's vlaunted engines, the point becomes moot.
>Fission vaporising solid/liquid, for instance, or ion propulsion?
>IIRC at least one canon of a TOS shuttle which used ion propulsion.
>(Possibly for both warp and impulse). ("The Menagerie"?).
Not ot my memeory. THere is one instance of an ion powered craft in Spock's
Brain that exceeds the speed of light using ion power.
>Starfleet engineers might equate big-ship-impulse with fusion powerplants.
>(In normal speech). But we don't know that. (Or do we?).
Impulse is pretty universally provided by fusion in ST. Klingons for sure
use it. The only other efficent method for high ST L velocity using
conventional thrust wouold be an antimatter rocker where the reactants are
totally vaporized. Read Robert L Forward's _Indistinguisable from Magic_
>Now I was assuming they had pulled some vital part(s) of any FTL drive in
>order to get room for enough fuel for quick outpost-busting, and for the
cloak.
>Or something along those lines.
Couldn't be. See above.
>But.
>
>One possible interpretation of Scotty's statement is that the Romulan ship
>simply didn't have enough fuel left to run an FTL drive for an appreciable
time.
>That would prove me wrong in that they could have possibly used FTL up till
>the last outpost they had attacked.
He had no idea what the ships fuel reserves were nor did he know the
specfics of their technology.
>"No. No, he is shrewd, this starship commander. "He tries to make us to
waste
>energy. It is estimated we have only enough.. It is time. All debris into
>disposal tubes"
That was a false assumption by the Romulan Commander not a definative
statement of fact. Both captain's made assumptions. Only Kirk was correct.
>They could've planned to run out their M/AM (compact and high output).
>And planned it to have enough conventional fuel to STL into the safety
>of the neutral zone. (With a margin for cloak and weapon, in case of
battle).
>
>Anyone who's better at the tech than I am... please correct me/comment.
-- Plain and Simple Cronan, Captain of the USS Megadittos <*>
Do you like Star Trek: DS9? What about Babylon 5? Go to
http://gpgod.home.mindspring.com/B5-Ds9.htm and read the
FAQ on which came first and a couple of other often asked
questions.
Timothy Jones
On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 pch...@phoenix.net wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:17:20 -0800, David <both...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Plain and Simple Cronan wrote:
> >>
> >> lauren michael oliver wrote
> >> >It states in the Star Trek Omnipedia that the romuulan bird of prey had
> >> >only impulse drive, no warp. The romulans got warp from the Klingons
> >> >who got cloaking technology.
> >>
> >> The STO is wrong in lots of places.
> >
> >Not about this. The Romulans got warp drive from the Klingons.
>
> Perhaps... perhaps not.
>
> The Romulans knew enough about warp to build and use a plasma
> "torpedo" that accelerated to warp speed ("Balance of Terror").
That was well after the initial point refered to on the historical
timeline.
> Also,
> impulse power may still be enough to affect faster-than-light speed
> but yet still significantly slower than a ship with warp power going
> to the engines...
Wrong. Impulse drive gets you to .92c, no more. [Source, TNG tech manual.]
TJ
Plain and Simple Cronan
Timothy Jones wrote
> There are two crucial factors the below post leaves out. First,
>Picard may have *prefered* to negotiate (as did Kirk, BTW), but he *can*
>and *did* fight like a holy terror when he had to.
Really? When was this?
A Kirk vs Picard
>scenario is nowhere near as obious as some would like to think.
Yeah it is.
{They are firing.}
{Kill them all and let god sort it out.}
See if you can figure out who said what
Second,
>like it or not, 70-odd years have passed, and the technology *has* been
>massively uprated.
Only if you ignore every TNG, DS9 and Voyager episdoe that show the exact
opposite.
As was demonstrated in "Yesturday's Enterprize," even a
>single iteration is enought o make all the difference. [I.e., you may
>recall that Cptn. Garret observed that, if the E-D had accompanied the E-C
>back to her time, the Romulan ships would've been no match for Picard's
>ship.}
HA! you are comparing a pre TNG era ship to Kirk's Enterprise. Kirk's
Enterprise beat anything and everything in space. It was a powehouse.
Klingon Cruisers? HA. He blew then from the stars. Romulans? He out
manuevered and out weaponed them. Kirk and his Enterprise coudl take on
anything. That was their purpose.
Do *not* mistake versatility for shallow functionality. The E-D is
>*not* a "jack-of-all-trades." It's capacities are as deep as they are
>broad.
Which is why it lost starboard power couplings the minute someone shot at
it. That's exactly why they have had 12 near core breaches. That is
precisely why it lost to old model Klingon BOP's on two occasions
*That's* why there are so few of them, and why the E-D is the
>flagship.
There are so few of them cause they go KABOOM when you sneeze on that
starboard power coupling.
> The GCS's are an impressive design!
Compared to the E-nil? It ain't nothing.
They sport more power than
>anything other than the Defiant, more speed than anything other than
>Voyager, and more capacity than anything other than (possibly) an Ariel
>class ship.
What is an Ariel class ship? Voyager cruised at a speed higher than the E-D
can maintain for even a few seconds.. The Defiant's cruise speed is warp 8.
The GCS is warp 6.
And do not mistake its amenities for the marks of a "luxury
>liner." Remember, this is a vessel of exploration. There is a definite
>purpose for everything on board, including the recreational facilities.
Like giving Riker a place to seduce holograms. Good idea those are.
>The fact that it accomodates for all these needs and *still* manages to be
>so formidable overall is to me very impressive.
What tells you that this ship is formidable? It has been beaten by a brother
and sister in a small shuttle, Ferengi in renovated BOP's and was destoryed
by a 12 yearold BOP. I would hate to see what you consider weak.
<<snipped blather>
> I for one think it would be a mistake to disregard their approach.
I think it a very good idea to disregard their design approach.
Let's face facts folks: the Defiant is the closest thing we have ever seen
on TNG+ shows that behaves similarly to the orginal Enterprise. It shows
clear dominance in space. Nothing stands against it.
In an effort to prove the Federation was perfect in all things, including
the ability to lose with no grace whatsoever, they destoryed Treknology in
favor of nifty fx
-- Plain and Simple Cronan, Captain of the USS Megadittos <*>
Wanna know how the generally obscene and seemlingly simple
place you believe to be reality is really run? No? Then go to
http://gpgod.home.mindspring.com/godFAQ.htm for a brief FAQ
on the universe
Blackrobe
> And he said impulse power which, as everyone other than you, seems to
know
> is fusion in the Star Trek universe. Clearly a fusion drive can power an
FTL
> craft 'cause that is what Zefram Cochrane used in FC.
>
> Scotty said the craft was powered by impulse. The craft exceeds light
speed
> several times.
>
> Can you see the point coming for you?
>
> DUCK
Actually, I understand that the impulse engines move a ship at close to C,
but not quite at the speed of light. The warp engines, theoretically,
generate a space/time warping field around the ship which "folds" space and
the impulse engines then push the ship through the fold to attain speed
"faster than light."
Yes... I know that there were several TOS episodes that chuck this
theoretical physics (most noticably the episode with the DOOMSDAY machine -
Kirk powers the other constitution class starship into the machine using
only the warp engines) but it seems to be the accepted cannon... at least
for now.
Blackrobe
Thomas Furber
In article <EIv0H...@cee.hw.ac.uk> adr...@cee.hw.ac.uk "Adrian Hurt" writes:
> In article <345777...@nr.infi.net> l...@nr.infi.net writes:
> >David Brenner wrote:
> >>
> >> I would have to say that since the Romulan Bird of Prey did have warp
> nacelles, that it did indeed have warp
> >> drive. Scotty's line could possibly mean that the ship is currently working
> at impulse power. This is very
> >> likely the case because the cloaking device took an enormous amount of
> energy.
> >>
> >> Just my two cents.
> >It states in the Star Trek Omnipedia that the romuulan bird of prey had
> >only impulse drive, no warp. The romulans got warp from the Klingons
> >who got cloaking technology.
>
> How many star systems did the Romulan Bird of Prey attack? If the answer
> is anything other than "one", and if it didn't take several years doing so,
> then the ship had warp drive. (Or at least, some sort of faster than light
> drive.)
>
or the writers just made a mistake.
Tom Furber
Rocky Steinhaus
On Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:53:34 -0500, "Plain and Simple Cronan"
<cro...@DeathsDoor.com> wrote:
>Timothy Jones wrote
>
>Well if ain't my favorite nitwit... Timmy Jones. Still hurting from the
>bruising I gave you on ST vs SW? Some 4 motnhes later and you still haven't
>responded. I was rather upset.
>
>>> Also,
>>> impulse power may still be enough to affect faster-than-light speed
>>> but yet still significantly slower than a ship with warp power going
>>> to the engines...
>>
>>Wrong. Impulse drive gets you to .92c, no more. [Source, TNG tech manual.]
>
>is fusion in the Star Trek universe. Clearly a fusion drive can power an FTL
>craft 'cause that is what Zefram Cochrane used in FC.
>
>Scotty said the craft was powered by impulse. The craft exceeds light speed
>several times.
>
>Can you see the point coming for you?
>
>DUCK
>
Anyone have canon for Cochrane's power supply?
Anyhow he used neither warp or impluse. He used CDP.
(According to the Tech Manual, at least).
Page 54:
"Early CDP engines - which were only informally dubbed `warp'
engines - met with success...".
Their speed alternated above and below light speed.
"...while remaining at neither for longer than Plank time..."
So that the average speed was c.
Cochrane's team developed CDP (continuum distortion propulsion).
That was the drive of his test ship, and was the FT-STL drive till
genuine "warp drive" was developed.
FT-STL for faster than STL. (Which makes a weird phrase, if
you expand it). :)
Rocky Steinhaus
On Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:40:15 -0800, Timothy Jones <time...@u.washington.edu>
wrote:
>On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 pch...@phoenix.net wrote:
>> On Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:17:20 -0800, David <both...@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >Plain and Simple Cronan wrote:
>> >> lauren michael oliver wrote
>> >> >only impulse drive, no warp. The romulans got warp from the Klingons
>> >> >who got cloaking technology.
>> >>
>> >
>> >Not about this. The Romulans got warp drive from the Klingons.
>>
>> Perhaps... perhaps not.
>>
>> The Romulans knew enough about warp to build and use a plasma
>> "torpedo" that accelerated to warp speed ("Balance of Terror").
>
>That was well after the initial point refered to on the historical
>timeline.
The Omnipedia timeline?
You're saying they claim it took place before the first Romulan episode?
Where? I can't find it by search or on chronological. Update or original?
Do they cite a source?
Or do they say "conjectural" (And cite a source)?
I asked in another post, replying to someone else.
No one's answered.
Pardon, if I seem skeptical. But, please elaborate.
Rocky Steinhaus
On 3 Nov 1997 02:37:46 GMT, "Blackrobe" <rballec*@orion.it.luc.edu> wrote:
>Yes... I know that there were several TOS episodes that chuck this
>theoretical physics (most noticably the episode with the DOOMSDAY machine -
>Kirk powers the other constitution class starship into the machine using
>only the warp engines) but it seems to be the accepted cannon... at least
>for now.
>
> Blackrobe
Actually, in the TOS "The Doomsday Machine"...
The warp drive was destroyed. (Heh, look at the nacelles).
He ran the Constellation on impulse.
But the impulse drive control circuitry was gone, too.
So Scotty had to cross-connect to the warp drive controls.
Supporting quotes. (Note: The tape eludes me, so I have to
go from memory. But they should be word-for-word).
(It's one of those episodes. <grin> ).
Scotty: "The warp drive is a hopeless pile of junk. The impulse engines
are still in *fair* shape. I might be able to coax `em.."
Kirk: "Then get to work."
Scotty: "Aye sir." "Come on lad." "Let's have a look at those engines."
-
Scotty: "The best I can give you is 1/4 impulse."
Kirk: "That'll have to do."
-
Scotty: "...the impulse engine control circuits are _fused_ _solid_."
Kirk: "What about the warp drive controls?"
Scotty: "Aye, I can cross-connect the controls. But it'll make it almost
impossible for one man to handle."
Kirk: "You worry about your miracles, I'll worry about mine. Get to work."