John Maxim
Graeme
Upon A Time as Number 86, eventhough he doesn't actually appear in the episode.
Is there anyone who's seen the original script, and knows just what his
role consisted of before it got left on the cutting room floor? I have a
feeling it's something totally boring like "Here's that report you wanted,
Number 2." "Oh, thank you, Number 86.", but still I've just got to know.
SoapySud
"Graeme" <graem...@aol.compost> wrote in message
news:20020906153715...@mb-fh.aol.com...
You can get a look at what John Maxim looked like in "Chimes" - he is the
largest of the judges at the art competition (wearing a blue blazer). His
fellow judge John Cazabon does of course get a look-in to "Once Upon a Time" as
the "Umbrella Man" who forgets to wear his number! Anyway, Mr Maxim was, if I
recall correctly, cast to play one of the technicians in the control room (the
chaps who examine the consoles for sensors and cameras) and his lines must have
been cut as he doesn't appear. I don't think any of the technicians in the
episode are him. Just a case of the credits being written from casting sheets I
guess?
--
SoapySud
Lawrence Clayton
> Probably everyone is aware that John Maxim shows up in the credits of Once
> Upon A Time as Number 86, eventhough he doesn't actually appear in the episode.
I once asked Steven Ricks about this, he said there was a scene either
before or after the number scene with Umbrella Man (my fuzzy memory,
not his) in which No 6 quizzed Maxim's character about the day. "What
day is it today? What day was it yesterday?", something like that.
Hope that helps and my memory is accurate.
Simon Coward
wrote:
>I once asked Steven Ricks about this, he said there was a scene either
>before or after the number scene with Umbrella Man (my fuzzy memory,
>not his) in which No 6 quizzed Maxim's character about the day. "What
>day is it today? What day was it yesterday?", something like that.
>
>Hope that helps and my memory is accurate.
These two scenes follow the telephone conversation between P and Leo and
precede the scene with the umbrella man.
EXT. VILLAGE. DAY (LIBRARY) 11
---------------------------------
LONG SHOT OF P WALKING UP STEPS AND INTO THE SQUARE. HE STOPS.
EXT. VILLAGE. DAY. 12
---------------------------------
P AT THE TOP OF THE STEPS. NO. 86 IS TALKING TO HIM.
NO. 86
Beautiful day.
P
Yes. What day is it?
NO. 86
Today. Every day.
HE LEAVES P. P LEFT IN SINGLE CLOSE SHOT.
P
What about tomorrow?
HE MOVES OFF
SoapySud
"Simon Coward" <nos...@nospam.hereplease.co.uk> wrote in message
news:52qjnu8qi4dlvssee...@4ax.com...
Excellent!
Does your script have the end? (Tony Sloman's didn't!) - and does it feature the
Supervisor entering the Embryo Room?
--
SoapySud
Simon Coward
wrote:
>Does your script have the end? (Tony Sloman's didn't!) - and does it feature the
>Supervisor entering the Embryo Room?
Penultimate page ends with...
P
Die!
NO. 2
Zero.
Last page...
(30 CONTINUED)
HE DIES. THE CLOCK ALARMS. THE STEEL DOORS OPEN. BEYOND STANDS THE
SUPERVISOR. ANGELO LOCKS THE CAGE.
SUPERVISOR
Congratulations.
HE PRESSES A SWITCH ON THE CLOCK. A HINGED FRONT FALLS FROM ABOVE TO
ENCLOSE THE CAGE.
SUPERVISOR
What do you desire?
P
Number One.
SUPERVISOR
I'll take you.
ANGELO LEADS THE WAY. THE SUPERVISOR GESTURES FOR P TO FOLLOW HIM.
THEY MOVE INTO THE SUBTERRANEAN CORRIDOR. TRACK IN TO THE FRONT OF THE
CAGE. WE HEAR A SOUND, LOUD AND GROWING IN VOLUME - AS OF A ROCKET
LAUNCHING.
THE END
-------
SoapySud
Proof positive that it was always intended to be held back and shjown as the
penultimate episode!
The rocket sound is intriguing....
--
SoapySud
Lew Stringer
Soap...@spamfilter.de wrote on 7/9/2002 3:32 PM:
> Proof positive that it was always intended to be held back and shjown as the
> penultimate episode!
>
> The rocket sound is intriguing....
>
> --
> SoapySud
It's an excellent penultimate episode, with the showdown between Number Six
and Number Two. Very powerful stuff. The only reason it was shot earler than
other episodes was to suit Leo McKern's schedule I presume?
Maybe the rocket sound was going to be a craft landing, not taking off?
Number One paying a visit?
Johnny Drake
WTF is JOHN MAXIM?
Graeme
>>WTF is JOHN MAXIM?
It's all explained in the post you responded to. Can't think how you missed
it.
Brian Watson
"SoapySud" <Soap...@spamfilter.de> wrote in message
news:ald2mt$1lq$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > HE DIES. THE CLOCK ALARMS. THE STEEL DOORS OPEN. BEYOND STANDS THE
> > SUPERVISOR. ANGELO LOCKS THE CAGE.
> >
> > SUPERVISOR
> > Congratulations.
> >
> > HE PRESSES A SWITCH ON THE CLOCK. A HINGED FRONT FALLS FROM ABOVE TO
> > ENCLOSE THE CAGE.
> >
> > SUPERVISOR
> > What do you desire?
> >
> > P
> > Number One.
> >
> > SUPERVISOR
> > I'll take you.
> >
> > ANGELO LEADS THE WAY. THE SUPERVISOR GESTURES FOR P TO FOLLOW HIM.
> > THEY MOVE INTO THE SUBTERRANEAN CORRIDOR. TRACK IN TO THE FRONT OF THE
> > CAGE. WE HEAR A SOUND, LOUD AND GROWING IN VOLUME - AS OF A ROCKET
> > LAUNCHING.
> Proof positive that it was always intended to be held back and shjown as
the
> penultimate episode!
And it blows my theory (expressed here some while ago) that the "What do you
desire?" "Number One" "I'll take you" exchange was tacked on afterwards.
> The rocket sound is intriguing....
It's actually a rising orchestral chord on the soundtrack, isn't it?
--
Brian
"I know about kittens and knitting. Will that do?"
gareth
Equally, without wanting to get too drawn into the "how many episodes
should there have been" debate, it makes a good cliffhanger ending to
the alleged thirteen episode first run, or a good penultimate to
whatever *might* have been the last ep of the seven episode
mini-series PMG (later) claimed he wanted. In the latter case, it
wouldn't be held back - it just takes a natural place immediately
after "Chimes", as in the production order.
Gareth
Frankymole
"gareth" <ghugh...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:aff8962a.02090...@posting.google.com...
If Simon indulges me and checks his script again, that should be obvious. The
dialogue of P addressing Number Two With "I know your voice" and 2 replying
"I've been here before" would only have been included if (as I suspect) by
December 1966 when Degree Absolute went into production the extra 10 episodes,
or some of them, were already proposed. If it isn't present, it'd show McGoohan
still intended there to be no gap between "Chimes" and "Once Upon A Time".
It would be interesting to know.
Frank
Frankymole
"Brian Watson" <br...@spheroid.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:alf2ih$3md$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk...
As a final scene it was replaced with the panning shot of the Embryo Room with
the rocking horse and swing finally coming to rest, with a nursery rhyme tune
played over it ("Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" I think).
--
Frank
Simon Coward
group.com> wrote:
>If Simon indulges me and checks his script again, that should be obvious. The
>dialogue of P addressing Number Two With "I know your voice" and 2 replying
>"I've been here before" would only have been included if (as I suspect) by
>December 1966 when Degree Absolute went into production the extra 10 episodes,
>or some of them, were already proposed. If it isn't present, it'd show McGoohan
>still intended there to be no gap between "Chimes" and "Once Upon A Time".
> It would be interesting to know.
I really should be finishing off some database development, but I know I
won't get it completed tonight, so...
INT. PRISONER'S HOUSE. DAY. 5
---------------------------------------------
P WALKS FAST TO HIS BREAKFAST TRAY. POURS COFFEE. DRINKS IT QUICKLY.
PACES.
INT. LIVING SPACE. 6
---------------------------------------------
SEEN ON THE B.P. SCREEN.
NO. 2
Why do you care?
HE IS AT THE DESK, SPEAKING INTO THE YELLOW TELEPHONE.
INT. PRISONER'S HOUSE. DAY. 7
---------------------------------------------
P AT THE PHONE.
P
I know your voice.
INT. LIVING SPACE. 8
---------------------------------------------
NO. 2
I was here before. Why do you care?
INT. PRISONER'S HOUSE. 9
---------------------------------------------
P AT PHONE.
P
You'll never know.
SLAMS DOWN THE PHONE, AND THE COFFEE CUP ON THE BREAKFAST TRAY. MOVES
TO THE DOOR. IT OPENS, HE LEAVES.
So there you have it.
Simon
Frankymole
> On Sun, 8 Sep 2002 20:47:30 +0100, "Frankymole" <Frank@Ask for it on the
> group.com> wrote:
>
> >If Simon indulges me and checks his script again, that should be obvious.
The
> >dialogue of P addressing Number Two With "I know your voice" and 2 replying
> >"I've been here before" would only have been included if (as I suspect) by
> >December 1966 when Degree Absolute went into production the extra 10
episodes,
> >or some of them, were already proposed. If it isn't present, it'd show
McGoohan
> >still intended there to be no gap between "Chimes" and "Once Upon A Time".
> > It would be interesting to know.
>
> I really should be finishing off some database development, but I know I
> won't get it completed tonight, so...
>
You know you want to.... ;0)
> INT. PRISONER'S HOUSE. DAY. 5
> ---------------------------------------------
> P WALKS FAST TO HIS BREAKFAST TRAY. POURS COFFEE. DRINKS IT QUICKLY.
> PACES.
No doubt snaping his finger sat the same time.... incidentally, does anyone else
love the Nigel Stock "Forsake" observation, on seeing No 6 pacing to-and-fro on
camera, scoffing sandwiches and being glum, that "anyone who spends their time
doing that msut be rather stupid?". Always found that a wonderful P Mc G ironic
humour moment - even if scripted, the fact it was left in tells volumes....
>
> INT. LIVING SPACE. 6
> ---------------------------------------------
> SEEN ON THE B.P. SCREEN.
BP= Back Projection screen.... Tony Sloman's department.... I love the trompe
l'oeuil effects when we seem to see into No 6's cottage as usual then it pulls
back to show No 2 "floating" against him, very disorientatingly, then it pulls
back further and No 2 shrinks, we realise it is No 2 watching a larger-than-life
6 on the screen..... amazing direction. And this in only the 6th filmed
episode. I love this series!
> NO. 2
> Why do you care?
>
> HE IS AT THE DESK, SPEAKING INTO THE YELLOW TELEPHONE.
>
> INT. PRISONER'S HOUSE. DAY. 7
> ---------------------------------------------
> P AT THE PHONE.
>
> P
> I know your voice.
>
> INT. LIVING SPACE. 8
> ---------------------------------------------
>
> NO. 2
> I was here before. Why do you care?
>
> INT. PRISONER'S HOUSE. 9
> ---------------------------------------------
> P AT PHONE.
>
> P
> You'll never know.
>
> SLAMS DOWN THE PHONE, AND THE COFFEE CUP ON THE BREAKFAST TRAY. MOVES
> TO THE DOOR. IT OPENS, HE LEAVES.
>
I speculate that at this point some other episodes were planned to be inserted.
Not that it matters much whether the "original 7" included "Once Upon a Time" or
not...
Frank
Graeme
dialogue of P addressing Number Two With "I know your voice" and 2 replying
"I've been here before" would only have been included if (as I suspect) by
December 1966 when Degree Absolute went into production the extra 10 episodes,
or some of them, were already proposed. If it isn't present, it'd show
McGoohan still intended there to be no gap between "Chimes" and "Once Upon A
Time".
It would be interesting to know.
>>
Not only that, but the whole bit about "I told you last time you were using the
wrong approach. We do it my way!" also implies a gap.
Because of both those things, Chimes doesn't fit very well as episode 5 out of
7. We could always argue that a long time passes between Chimes and Once Upon
A Time, during which he left and came back, and we didn't see any of the
intervening time, but it still doesn't feel natural. McKern's whole attitude
implies several village failures while he's been gone that he supposedly warned
against, but wasn't listened to. Yet none of those failures are worth
mentioning to the viewer? Doesn't feel right.
And I don't really believe in "the original 7" anyway. That may be something
that Pat wanted, either at the time, or looking back on it later, but I've
never heard of any documents showing that there was REALLY ever a plan to do
just seven episodes. If Lew Grade objected to that, I bet he objected when the
idea was first proposed. Maybe Pat went into his office that first day and
proposed doing 7 episodes, but if so, it wasn't THOSE 7 episodes, because he
didn't write them all himself. And of the three he did write, he apparently
had no real clue what was going to happen in Fall Out until much later. Either
way, I bet Grade never said yes to doing only 7. And if Pat thinks, even now,
that there are 10 expendable episodes, he's crazy. There are maybe 4 I could
do without. Tops.
But if, for some reason, we did want to have a showing that included only the 7
episodes he names, and no others, I'd suggest at least reversing the order of
Checkmate and Chimes of Big Ben. Show them like this:
Arrival
Free For All
Dance of the Dead
Chimes of Big Ben
Checkmate
Once Upon a Time
Fall Out
That way at least the whole situation with Leo McKern makes sense. Is there
any reason why Checkmate shouldn't go after Chimes anyway?
Frankymole
"Graeme" <graem...@aol.compost> wrote in message
> >>If Simon indulges me and checks his script again, that should be obvious.
The
> dialogue of P addressing Number Two With "I know your voice" and 2 replying
> "I've been here before" would only have been included if (as I suspect) by
> December 1966 when Degree Absolute went into production the extra 10 episodes,
> or some of them, were already proposed. If it isn't present, it'd show
> McGoohan still intended there to be no gap between "Chimes" and "Once Upon A
> Time".
> It would be interesting to know.
> >>
>
> Not only that, but the whole bit about "I told you last time you were using
the
> wrong approach. We do it my way!" also implies a gap.
>
Good point. The flashbacks are all from the preceding parts of the "magic 7"
though, but that is hardly surprising as (apart from a few static matt shots,
notably in "Funeral") all the "No 2's screen" clips were back-projected 'live'
on set from the library and only Arrival/Free For All/Checkmate/Dance/Chimes
were in Tony Sloman's library at that point - no others being yet shot!
> Because of both those things, Chimes doesn't fit very well as episode 5 out of
> 7. We could always argue that a long time passes between Chimes and Once Upon
> A Time, during which he left and came back, and we didn't see any of the
> intervening time, but it still doesn't feel natural.
Perhaps 10 other episodes intervened... but we wouldn't have seen them! ;-D
> McKern's whole attitude
> implies several village failures while he's been gone that he supposedly
warned
> against, but wasn't listened to. Yet none of those failures are worth
> mentioning to the viewer? Doesn't feel right.
A good inference but not explicit in the dialogue.
> And I don't really believe in "the original 7" anyway. That may be something
> that Pat wanted, either at the time, or looking back on it later, but I've
> never heard of any documents showing that there was REALLY ever a plan to do
> just seven episodes. If Lew Grade objected to that, I bet he objected when
the
> idea was first proposed.
Pat had *no* scripts ready when he proposed it - only treatments and story
ideas. So he said in Roger's interview anyway.
> Maybe Pat went into his office that first day and
> proposed doing 7 episodes, but if so, it wasn't THOSE 7 episodes, because he
> didn't write them all himself. And of the three he did write, he apparently
> had no real clue what was going to happen in Fall Out until much later.
Either
> way, I bet Grade never said yes to doing only 7. And if Pat thinks, even now,
> that there are 10 expendable episodes, he's crazy. There are maybe 4 I could
> do without. Tops.
Necessity is the mother of invention (RIP Frank). Some hugely successful ideas
were encapsulated in the "new" scripts - Lewis Greifer's raw take on education
is particularly powerful to me (and he's still a great hippy). But as only a
skeleton plan was in mind on "Sell-it-to-Lew-Day", I think all the stories were
flesh on the bones. They had to canvass the crew for ideas by "Harmony" though,
as is reported by assistant editor Ian L. Rakoff! So there came a time that
they did need to eke it out - but only late in the day.
> But if, for some reason, we did want to have a showing that included only the
7
> episodes he names, and no others, I'd suggest at least reversing the order of
> Checkmate and Chimes of Big Ben. Show them like this:
>
> Arrival
> Free For All
> Dance of the Dead
> Chimes of Big Ben
> Checkmate
> Once Upon a Time
> Fall Out
>
> That way at least the whole situation with Leo McKern makes sense. Is there
> any reason why Checkmate shouldn't go after Chimes anyway?
Works better for the dialogue about "the previous No 8" leaving too (Chimes).
The Black Queen in Checkmate (Rosalie Crutchlie) is No 8.
Cheers!
Frank
Johnny Drake
But does anyone care?