Last episode
ss
After their escape Nr. 48 and Nr.2 are free and can proceed refusing to
conform, while Nr.6 still is imprisoned just the village has changed.
Right? :)
But was there any special meaning in reagard to the music i.e. Dem
Bones and the Beatles song? IIRC there's not been any similarly
occurance of music in the other episodes. So was there something i
missed?
Dewey
"All you need is love" is self explanatory. As for Dry Bones - who
knows? Maybe allegorical for how we are all connected?
--
"Building a mosque near Ground Zero is like building a church
across the street from the Federal Building in Oklahoma City."
- what you will never hear from a "Ground Zero Mosque" protester
Brian Watson
"ss" <m...@thisis.invalid> wrote in message news:4c7e...@news.x-privat.org...
> Hi
>
> After their escape Nr. 48 and Nr.2 are free and can proceed refusing to
> conform, while Nr.6 still is imprisoned just the village has changed.
> Right? :)
I don't think that neccesarily follows.
Certainly, it appears that Number Two CHOOSES to go back to his old job.
Does that make him free?
Number 48 chooses to go back to HIS rather feckless lifestyle, but is he
free?
And McGoohan has said that the self-opening door is a metaphor to say Number
Six is STILL in "The Village", as we all are.
He ALSO said (often overlooked) something to the effect that that is no
reason to stop TRYING to be free.
> But was there any special meaning in reagard to the music i.e. Dem Bones
> and the Beatles song? IIRC there's not been any similarly occurance of
> music in the other episodes. So was there something i missed?
There is LOTS of incidental music used in the series, but I think All You
Need Is Love is in there ironically, and Dem Bones is just a pointless
catchy song that Number 48 annoys the parliament with.
--
Brian
"Fight like the Devil, die like a gentleman."
www.imagebus.co.uk/shop
David Catterall
> I think All You Need Is Love is in there ironically, and Dem Bones is
> just a pointless catchy song that Number 48 annoys the parliament with.
That makes a lot of sense, Brian.
> There is LOTS of incidental music used in the series
Does anybody know the name of that catchy little March which occurs
in more than one episode? Something like:
Tum tee-tum-tum tum tee-tum-tum toom toom
Tum tum tum tum
Tum tum tum tum
Thanks anybody,
>David
Jill Mills
"David Catterall" <DJC...@Eircom.net> wrote in message
news:i5ntdr$1e7$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Do you mean this one, David?
Strauss - Radetzky March
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHFf7NIwOHQ
Maybe someone can point you to a Priz link.
I'm meant to be going out... ;-)
Jill
ss
>
> "ss" <m...@thisis.invalid> wrote in message news:4c7e...@news.x-privat.org...
>> Hi
>>
>> After their escape Nr. 48 and Nr.2 are free and can proceed refusing to
>> conform, while Nr.6 still is imprisoned just the village has changed.
>> Right? :)
>
> I don't think that neccesarily follows.
>
> Certainly, it appears that Number Two CHOOSES to go back to his old job.
> Does that make him free?
>
> Number 48 chooses to go back to HIS rather feckless lifestyle, but is he
> free?
Well, they were more (Nr. 48) or less (Nr.2) free to choose their
lifestyles as we all were, well more or less :) They are presented to
us as nonconformists or some kind of revolutionists. So after coming
back to London i'd say they _are_ free and can go on with being
nonconformistic in their and now of course also our world. Ok they left
it open if this is somehting good or bad ;)
For me it looked like that the "plan" was to fire the rocket to free
the world from those nonconformists (btw did McGoohan ever say where
the rocket did go? :) ). After Nr.6 manages to initiate the launch that
fails, they can escape and the world goes on...see above.
>
> And McGoohan has said that the self-opening door is a metaphor to say Number
> Six is STILL in "The Village", as we all are.
>
> He ALSO said (often overlooked) something to the effect that that is no
> reason to stop TRYING to be free.
Ok thanks. didn't know about what he said...can agree with that.
>
>> But was there any special meaning in reagard to the music i.e. Dem Bones
>> and the Beatles song? IIRC there's not been any similarly occurance of
>> music in the other episodes. So was there something i missed?
>
> There is LOTS of incidental music used in the series, but I think All You
> Need Is Love is in there ironically, and Dem Bones is just a pointless
> catchy song that Number 48 annoys the parliament with.
And when they're on the motorway heading to London and singing it
alltoghether this must then be to annoy all of us. :)) No your
explanation sound fine to me. It just was that i had the feeling that
the songs were deliberatly chosen. E.g. at the beginning of the episode
when they walk through that tunnel there are jukeboxes left and right
"escorting" them.
ss
> ss <m...@thisis.invalid> wrote in news:4c7e...@news.x-privat.org:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> After their escape Nr. 48 and Nr.2 are free and can proceed refusing
>> to conform, while Nr.6 still is imprisoned just the village has
>> changed. Right? :)
>>
>> But was there any special meaning in reagard to the music i.e. Dem
>> Bones and the Beatles song? IIRC there's not been any similarly
>> occurance of music in the other episodes. So was there something i
>> missed?
>>
>>
>
> "All you need is love" is self explanatory. As for Dry Bones - who
> knows? Maybe allegorical for how we are all connected?
Ok thanks, this sounds reasonably too.
I just couldn't loose the feeling that there could be a connection with
the story by itself.
Brian Watson
"David Catterall" <DJC...@Eircom.net> wrote in message
news:i5ntdr$1e7$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
If you mean the one played in Fall Out as they are all going their separate
way (end elsewhere) that begins;
Tum, tee-tum-tum tum teetumtum toobly-boom
I think that's a march specially written (by Albert Elms?) for the series.
Brian Watson
"ss" <m...@thisis.invalid> wrote in message news:4c7f...@news.x-privat.org...
> On 2010-09-02 00:31:35 +0200, "Brian Watson" <Br...@imagebus.co.uk> said:
>
>>
>> "ss" <m...@thisis.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:4c7e...@news.x-privat.org...
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> After their escape Nr. 48 and Nr.2 are free and can proceed refusing to
>>> conform, while Nr.6 still is imprisoned just the village has changed.
>>> Right? :)
>>
>> I don't think that neccesarily follows.
>>
>> Certainly, it appears that Number Two CHOOSES to go back to his old job.
>> Does that make him free?
>>
>> Number 48 chooses to go back to HIS rather feckless lifestyle, but is he
>> free?
>
> Well, they were more (Nr. 48) or less (Nr.2) free to choose their
> lifestyles as we all were, well more or less :) They are presented to us
> as nonconformists or some kind of revolutionists. So after coming back to
> London i'd say they _are_ free and can go on with being nonconformistic in
> their and now of course also our world. Ok they left it open if this is
> somehting good or bad ;)
>
> For me it looked like that the "plan" was to fire the rocket to free the
> world from those nonconformists (btw did McGoohan ever say where the
> rocket did go? :) ). After Nr.6 manages to initiate the launch that fails,
> they can escape and the world goes on...see above.
Yep, I think you've got it right (meaning: "I agree" Lol)
I always took it that Number Six was blasting HIS personal Number One into
space.
>> And McGoohan has said that the self-opening door is a metaphor to say
>> Number
>> Six is STILL in "The Village", as we all are.
>>
>> He ALSO said (often overlooked) something to the effect that that is no
>> reason to stop TRYING to be free.
>
> Ok thanks. didn't know about what he said...can agree with that.
It was in a kids' Saturday morning programme (of all places!)
>
>>> But was there any special meaning in reagard to the music i.e. Dem Bones
>>> and the Beatles song? IIRC there's not been any similarly occurance of
>>> music in the other episodes. So was there something i missed?
>>
>> There is LOTS of incidental music used in the series, but I think All You
>> Need Is Love is in there ironically, and Dem Bones is just a pointless
>> catchy song that Number 48 annoys the parliament with.
>
> And when they're on the motorway heading to London and singing it
> alltoghether this must then be to annoy all of us. :)) No your explanation
> sound fine to me. It just was that i had the feeling that the songs were
> deliberatly chosen. E.g. at the beginning of the episode when they walk
> through that tunnel there are jukeboxes left and right "escorting" them.
Now I always took that to be, "he's so famous, he gets songs written about
him that are played on jukeboxes."
Just my theory.
ss
Totally forgot about that scene with Nr.1. To be honest it looked a bit
too surreal to me (the chimpanzee mask) to question.
Guess one could take the whole rocketlaunch as a methaper for some kind
of deliverance.
>
>>> And McGoohan has said that the self-opening door is a metaphor to say
>>> Number
>>> Six is STILL in "The Village", as we all are.
>>>
>>> He ALSO said (often overlooked) something to the effect that that is no
>>> reason to stop TRYING to be free.
>>
>> Ok thanks. didn't know about what he said...can agree with that.
>
> It was in a kids' Saturday morning programme (of all places!)
Sorry no idea.
>>>> But was there any special meaning in reagard to the music i.e. Dem Bones
>>>> and the Beatles song? IIRC there's not been any similarly occurance of
>>>> music in the other episodes. So was there something i missed?
>>>
>>> There is LOTS of incidental music used in the series, but I think All You
>>> Need Is Love is in there ironically, and Dem Bones is just a pointless
>>> catchy song that Number 48 annoys the parliament with.
>>
>> And when they're on the motorway heading to London and singing it
>> alltoghether this must then be to annoy all of us. :)) No your explanation
>> sound fine to me. It just was that i had the feeling that the songs were
>> deliberatly chosen. E.g. at the beginning of the episode when they walk
>> through that tunnel there are jukeboxes left and right "escorting" them.
>
> Now I always took that to be, "he's so famous, he gets songs written about
> him that are played on jukeboxes."
>
> Just my theory.
Ah ok. Yes thinking about it...the musical envoicing of the view of an
illustrious Nr.6 finally finding his way to an answer. Makes a bit more
sense now, thanks!
Gareth
>
> - Show quoted text -
I think David means the one that's played a lot in The General and
apears a few times elsewhere (going by the tum tee's)
Brian Watson
"ss" <m...@thisis.invalid> wrote in message news:4c7f...@news.x-privat.org...
> On 2010-09-02 13:52:40 +0200, "Brian Watson" <Br...@imagebus.co.uk> said:
>>> For me it looked like that the "plan" was to fire the rocket to free the
>>> world from those nonconformists (btw did McGoohan ever say where the
>>> rocket did go? :) ). After Nr.6 manages to initiate the launch that
>>> fails,
>>> they can escape and the world goes on...see above.
>>
>> Yep, I think you've got it right (meaning: "I agree" Lol)
>>
>> I always took it that Number Six was blasting HIS personal Number One
>> into
>> space.
>
> Totally forgot about that scene with Nr.1. To be honest it looked a bit
> too surreal to me (the chimpanzee mask) to question.
Some people waited 16 and three-quarter episodes for that scene.
:-)
> Guess one could take the whole rocketlaunch as a methaper for some kind of
> deliverance.
Yes, that's my assumption.
>>>> And McGoohan has said that the self-opening door is a metaphor to say
>>> And when they're on the motorway heading to London and singing it
>>> alltoghether this must then be to annoy all of us. :)) No your
>>> explanation
>>> sound fine to me. It just was that i had the feeling that the songs were
>>> deliberatly chosen. E.g. at the beginning of the episode when they walk
>>> through that tunnel there are jukeboxes left and right "escorting" them.
>>
>> Now I always took that to be, "he's so famous, he gets songs written
>> about
>> him that are played on jukeboxes."
>>
>> Just my theory.
>
> Ah ok. Yes thinking about it...the musical envoicing of the view of an
> illustrious Nr.6 finally finding his way to an answer. Makes a bit more
> sense now, thanks!
I never understood why so many people were dissatisfied with the last
episode.
I got "MY" clear meaning out of it (even though that's been added to since
by finding things that I missed, or misunderstood at the time).
That was PMG's motive, I think. To ratchet up the philosophical content in
the last one and leave people to find their own interpretations of it.
Brian Watson
"Gareth" <ghugh...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:837ffbab-cb17-44d0...@s9g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
Ah right.
One good tum deserves another.
;-)
ss
>
> "ss" <m...@thisis.invalid> wrote in message news:4c7f...@news.x-privat.org...
>> On 2010-09-02 13:52:40 +0200, "Brian Watson" <Br...@imagebus.co.uk> said:
>
>>>> For me it looked like that the "plan" was to fire the rocket to free the
>>>> world from those nonconformists (btw did McGoohan ever say where the
>>>> rocket did go? :) ). After Nr.6 manages to initiate the launch that
>>>> fails,
>>>> they can escape and the world goes on...see above.
>>>
>>> Yep, I think you've got it right (meaning: "I agree" Lol)
>>>
>>> I always took it that Number Six was blasting HIS personal Number One
>>> into
>>> space.
>>
>> Totally forgot about that scene with Nr.1. To be honest it looked a bit
>> too surreal to me (the chimpanzee mask) to question.
>
> Some people waited 16 and three-quarter episodes for that scene.
>
> :-)
Not necessarily :)
As said i didn't even have it in mind initially. Looking so surreal i
just didn't catch it as being crucial to the episode's meaning. Though
YMMV
But maybe we're getting close to the real reson it was there: all the
people way to curious seeing Nr.1's face. ;)
>
>> Guess one could take the whole rocketlaunch as a methaper for some kind of
>> deliverance.
>
> Yes, that's my assumption.
>
>>>>> And McGoohan has said that the self-opening door is a metaphor to say
>
>>>> And when they're on the motorway heading to London and singing it
>>>> alltoghether this must then be to annoy all of us. :)) No your
>>>> explanation
>>>> sound fine to me. It just was that i had the feeling that the songs were
>>>> deliberatly chosen. E.g. at the beginning of the episode when they walk
>>>> through that tunnel there are jukeboxes left and right "escorting" them.
>>>
>>> Now I always took that to be, "he's so famous, he gets songs written
>>> about
>>> him that are played on jukeboxes."
>>>
>>> Just my theory.
>>
>> Ah ok. Yes thinking about it...the musical envoicing of the view of an
>> illustrious Nr.6 finally finding his way to an answer. Makes a bit more
>> sense now, thanks!
>
> I never understood why so many people were dissatisfied with the last
> episode.
>
> I got "MY" clear meaning out of it (even though that's been added to since
> by finding things that I missed, or misunderstood at the time).
Yep.
>
> That was PMG's motive, I think. To ratchet up the philosophical content in
> the last one and leave people to find their own interpretations of it.
IMHO, but wouldn't have everything else been much more disappointing?
It was much more "logical" to let it end that methaphorical way.
Mastrid
> If you mean the one played in Fall Out as they are all going their separate
> way (end elsewhere) that begins;
>
> Tum, tee-tum-tum tum teetumtum toobly-boom
>
> I think that's a march specially written (by Albert Elms?) for the series.
>
> --
> Brian
> "Fight like the Devil, die like a gentleman."www.imagebus.co.uk/shop
Three CDs were issued by Silva Screen from 1989 to 1992 of original
music from the series. Volume 1 is mostly Elms material, and Volume 2
is all non-Elms. One of the tracks in the "Fall Out" section on this
second CD, under the heading of Back in London, is "September Ballad"
by G. Bellington and I think this is the one you mean.
M.
David Catterall
> One of the tracks in the "Fall Out" section on this
> second CD, under the heading of Back in London, is "September Ballad"
> by G. Bellington and I think this is the one you mean.
I don't know about that, Mastrid,
The title you give would better match the music playing when they are all
being dropped off at their respective destinations, ie roadside, Westminster etc.
Thanks for trying,
>David
Orson Cart
"Brian Watson" <Br...@imagebus.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>I never understood why so many people were dissatisfied with the last
>
>episode.
>
>I got "MY" clear meaning out of it (even though that's been added
>to since
>by finding things that I missed, or misunderstood at the time).
>
>That was PMG's motive, I think. To ratchet up the philosophical content
>in
>the last one and leave people to find their own interpretations of
>it.
>
One scene sticks in my mind: when No. 48 is singing, the butler is
sniggering for a few seconds. To me it does not look like something in
the script, it is as if Angelo is trying not to laugh. Perhaps the
whole episode was a joke, Patrick's way of saying up yours to Lew
Grade and the critics.
Brian Watson
"Orson Cart" <ex-p...@parts.org> wrote in message
news:4caaf9b4$1...@x-privat.org...
> One scene sticks in my mind: when No. 48 is singing, the butler is
> sniggering for a few seconds. To me it does not look like something in
> the script, it is as if Angelo is trying not to laugh. Perhaps the
> whole episode was a joke, Patrick's way of saying up yours to Lew
> Grade and the critics.
I don't think so.
I think PMG was a serious (possibly TOO serious from most viewpoints) man
who crafted his work professionally, even towards the end.
He didn't "get it" when others didn't "get it".
Graeme
> Certainly, it appears that Number Two CHOOSES to go back to his old job.
> Does that make him free?
>
> Number 48 chooses to go back to HIS rather feckless lifestyle, but is he
> free?
Depends. McGoohan was on record saying that freedom was a myth (but
not explaining what that statement meant, precisely. Not sure if he
was advocating a kind of hard determinism, or just saying thta
everyone is affected by outside influences, which is true, but too
obvious to bother saying). If his statement is literally true, that
there is no such thing as freedom, then 2 and 48 are not free. On the
other hand, there's no reason to mourn the loss of something you never
had and never could have had.
>>And McGoohan has said that the self-opening door is a metaphor to say Number Six is STILL in "The Village", as we all are.
>>
Maybe. But wasn't the door at the end unscripted?
And what does the statement mean? That he's literally still in the
village (like the character at the end of Brazil) and the escape was
all imaginary? Or does it mean that he's NOT in the Village, only
that the outside world is similar to the Village (which we already
knew back in Episode 1)?
> He ALSO said (often overlooked) something to the effect that that is no
> reason to stop TRYING to be free.
If freedom is a myth, then there's every reason to stop trying. The
problem is so much information is either withheld or tossed out in
cryptic half-meanings, that a full analysis can't be pulled from it.
McGoohan doesn't seem to have known how to end the series, so he wrote
half a story, and left it for the viewers to write the other half in
their minds. We should demand story credit.
Moor Larkin
> Depends. McGoohan was on record saying that freedom was a myth (but
> not explaining what that statement meant, precisely.
He said something one time about having to eat to stay alive. I think
he was just stating the obvious, but then how many millions of people
have died in the name of freedom? Given the *Cold war* context of the
show and the obvious nuclear reference within the title, he was
expressing the notion that maybe freedom isn't actually worth just
dying for, given that freedom is all a matter of degrees of freedom
anyway.
On 5 Oct, 20:58, Graeme <graemec...@aol.com> wrote:
> >>And McGoohan has said that the self-opening door is a metaphor to say Number Six is STILL in "The Village", as we all are.
>
> Maybe. But wasn't the door at the end unscripted?
They filmed it, so they obviously meant it to happen. Anyhow, it was
only the butler who went back in. So far as I recall the prisoner was
last seen haring off down the road to somewhere. If the butler was
representing the compliant "little man" and Six the odd, outsider
individualist, then the end of the ending makes perfect sense.
On 5 Oct, 20:58, Graeme <graemec...@aol.com> wrote:
> If freedom is a myth, then there's every reason to stop trying. The
> problem is so much information is either withheld or tossed out in
> cryptic half-meanings, that a full analysis can't be pulled from it.
> McGoohan doesn't seem to have known how to end the series, so he wrote
> half a story, and left it for the viewers to write the other half in
> their minds. We should demand story credit.
Death is not a myth.It is an inevitability.What use is freedom to a
dead man? Does the fact you are going to die mean you should stop
trying to live? Does the fact you cannot be free mean you should stop
trying to be free?
Most dystopian stories end in the death of the hero..... Big Brother
kills them, Brave New World has them committing suicide, Brazil left
the hero brain-dead at the very best.
McGoohan was evidently an optimist and a believer that if you had the
will to be free then having that will was what made you free. So he
broke the dystopian cycle and his prisoner escaped and even danced in
the street. I give him full credit for a brilliant series and a superb
and sublime *ending*.
Graeme
> He said something one time about having to eat to stay alive. I think
> he was just stating the obvious,
Maybe. He didn't explain the statement.
>>but then how many millions of people have died in the name of freedom?
Probably about as many as have died in the name of peace. But that
doesn't tell us whether either of those goals actually exists or not,
only that people feel strongly about them.
> They filmed it, so they obviously meant it to happen.
They filmed him walking into his house, but the sound effect was added
in post-production. The outside world isn't literally the Village, of
course, so we're left to wonder if the escape was only in his mind (as
in Brazil), or if it was genuine, but the show is making a statement
to the effect that the real world isn't that much of an improvement.
If that's what McGoohan thought, then No. 6 disagreed with him,
otherwise there would have been no reason to try to escape.
> Death is not a myth.It is an inevitability.What use is freedom to a
> dead man? Does the fact you are going to die mean you should stop
> trying to live? Does the fact you cannot be free mean you should stop
> trying to be free?
Life is something that you can have, albeit temporarily. If freedom
is a myth, then you can't have it, even temporarily. You strive for
things that you might possibly achieve. But when he said freedom was
a myth, I don't think he really meant it. He might have meant that
TOTAL freedom (from all possible outside influences) was a myth.
Which is, again, true, but too obvious to bother saying. And nobody
would desire that kind of freedom anyway.
> McGoohan was evidently an optimist and a believer that if you had the
> will to be free then having that will was what made you free.
The fact that you have to say "evidently" shows has shaky the final
episode is. We don't really know what he thinks, and I'm not sure he
did either at that point. Does No. 6 literally escape, or not? We're
not sure. Is he free at the end or not? Visually he seems to be, but
the caption says no. So, who knows what he thought? But the series
does ssem to be more optimistic than that awful remake.
What I want to know is why No. 6 trusted Homer Simpson with an escape
boat that he'd spent 20 years making? Trusting him not to screw it up
seems OVERLY optimistic to me.
Brian Watson
"Graeme" <graem...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:49d14663-6ea1-47dd...@l6g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
>>And McGoohan has said that the self-opening door is a metaphor to say
>>Number Six is STILL in "The Village", as we all are.
>>
> Maybe. But wasn't the door at the end unscripted?
Scripted, I think.
> And what does the statement mean? That he's literally still in the
village (like the character at the end of Brazil) and the escape was
all imaginary? Or does it mean that he's NOT in the Village, only
that the outside world is similar to the Village (which we already
knew back in Episode 1)?
I think it is that the whole world CAN be The Village, id we let it be.
> > He ALSO said (often overlooked) something to the effect that that is no
> > reason to stop TRYING to be free.
> If freedom is a myth, then there's every reason to stop trying. The
problem is so much information is either withheld or tossed out in
cryptic half-meanings, that a full analysis can't be pulled from it.
McGoohan doesn't seem to have known how to end the series, so he wrote
half a story, and left it for the viewers to write the other half in
their minds. We should demand story credit.
"You won't get it!"
Lol.
scoville
> "Graeme" <graemec...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:49d14663-6ea1-47dd...@l6g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
>
> >>And McGoohan has said that the self-opening door is a metaphor to say
> >>Number Six is STILL in "The Village", as we all are.
>
> > Maybe. But wasn't the door at the end unscripted?
>
> Scripted, I think.
>
Prisoner hands the Butler the key, the Butler unlocks and opens the
door, goes inside and holds the door open for the Prisoner, who
follows him inside. The door closes behind him.
Scoville.
Graeme
> Could I just remind you that it was only the butler who went back into
> the house. Number Six climbed into his car and drove away. The butler
> returned from whence he came if you like, but Number Six did not.
I know, but McGoohan wrote the script. So, the question is did he
write that into the script, or did he think of it later, or did
somebody else put it in in post-production?
> What is particularly striking to me is that in an interview a decade
> after he had made the show (and from judging from his general attitude
> to watching himself, had not watched it since), his recall of the
> finer detail seems better than yours... :-)))))))))
The error was yours. We can't have you maligning Number... whatever
my number is. You remembered correctly that it was the butler who
walked in, but you misremembered the part where I said anything
different. The question, once again, is what point the author is
trying to make, not who walked in the door.
> Given the level of complexity of purpose I am trying to explain and
> demonstrate to you, how can you maintain that the final episode was
> ill-thought through and badly executed, as you seem to argue. You need
> to watch more carefully I think and not just expect Sean or Roger or
> one of those guys, you know?
If you'd read the post, you'd know. Are you sure it's my post you're
responding to? You don't seem to be responding to points I actually
made, only ones I didn't, like who walked in the door.
> "Which is the whole point. When that door opens on its own and there's
> no one behind it, exactly the same as all the doors in the Village
> open, you know that somebody's waiting in there to start it all over
> again. He's got no freedom. Freedom is a myth. There's no final
> conclusion to it. Ah, and I was very fortunate to be able to do
> something as audacious as that with no final conclusion to it because
> people do want the word "THE END" put up there. Now the final two
> words for that thing should have been "THE BEGINNING". "
All right, let's look at that. "The Beginning" would hardly be
appropriate. If, after Fall Out, he gets sent back to the Village
again, for the 3rd, or actually the 4th time (counting the two escapes
in Returns and Forsake Me), it wouldn't be the beginning, it would be
the next number in a sequence. If the Village does want him back,
then he's made it very easy by going back to his old house and making
no effort to go into hiding. A far more appropriate caption would be
"Doesn't he ever learn?", which would take the edge off it a bit.
My assumption (granted, there's no dialogue to support this, since
there's almost no dialogue in the 4th act at all) is that at the end,
Leo is going in to Parliament to blow the lid on the whole Village
project, that it will result in hearings, impeachments and the like,
and Number 6 really will be free of the Village because it won't be
around any more. If that's not the case, then it makes no sense that
he goes back to his apartment at all, rather than adopting a new
identity and going underground until he can contact that "Elsewhere"
he spoke of in Returns, that was going to help him expose the
Village. It's hard to feel sorry for Number 6 being pursued by the
Village if he makes no effort to elude them.
You asked how I could say that not a lot of thought went into the
ending. That's one reason. Everything I just said is something I had
to write and/or extrapolate on my own. It's not in the episode, not
supported by dialogue, or any of that. Literally all we see is that,
after once escaping the village and being recaptured when he goes back
to his old haunts, he escapes again, and... goes back to his old
haunts. Asking for it, is he? There's not a lot of sense in that, we
have to write our own story around those basic facts we see onscreen,
to make it make sense.
Moor Larkin
> All right, let's look at that. "The Beginning" would hardly be
> appropriate. If, after Fall Out, he gets sent back to the Village
> again, for the 3rd, or actually the 4th time (counting the two escapes
> in Returns and Forsake Me), it wouldn't be the beginning, it would be
> the next number in a sequence. If the Village does want him back,
> then he's made it very easy by going back to his old house and making
> no effort to go into hiding. A far more appropriate caption would be
> "Doesn't he ever learn?", which would take the edge off it a bit.
But you are still failing to notice that HE does not go back through
the door, the butler does. You say it makes no difference who goes
through the door but of course it does! The butler is exactly
representing the compliant, *little*,silent majority man who goes back
through the door, back into the army, back into the factory, whatever
door you like to imagine - over and over and over again. The compliant
will always make themselves a prisoner. Number Six does not. He gets
into his car and drives. We have no idea where he is going any more
than we really knew where he came from. But he is not relying on
others as Number 48 is, cadging a lift on any vehicle that is willing
to stop for him. And he is certainly not interested in walking into
the corridors of power alongside a new Number Two.
So when McGoohan said the beginning, did he mean the same beginning or
a new beginning? If it's a new beginning, is he to be admired for
continuing to try? Or condemned for *never learning* ......... like
the butler.
>
> My assumption (granted, there's no dialogue to support this, since
> there's almost no dialogue in the 4th act at all) is that at the end,
> Leo is going in to Parliament to blow the lid on the whole Village
> project, that it will result in hearings, impeachments and the like,
> and Number 6 really will be free of the Village because it won't be
> around any more. If that's not the case, then it makes no sense that
> he goes back to his apartment at all, rather than adopting a new
> identity and going underground until he can contact that "Elsewhere"
> he spoke of in Returns, that was going to help him expose the
> Village. It's hard to feel sorry for Number 6 being pursued by the
> Village if he makes no effort to elude them.
HE didn't go back to his apartment, other than to fetch his car and
leave. At the very least his little buzzbomb goes faster than that
hearse that lingers around and about.
> You asked how I could say that not a lot of thought went into the
> ending. That's one reason. Everything I just said is something I had
> to write and/or extrapolate on my own. It's not in the episode, not
> supported by dialogue, or any of that. Literally all we see is that,
> after once escaping the village and being recaptured when he goes back
> to his old haunts, he escapes again, and... goes back to his old
> haunts. Asking for it, is he? There's not a lot of sense in that,
He had escaped the village more than once before, or so he thought and
they had always brought him back. This last time, the village blew
itself up, so one thing seems for sure,he was not going back to that
particular village. So he had escaped that one and he knew it.
> wehave to write our own story around those basic facts we see onscreen,
> to make it make sense.
I don't really see that at all. The episode was not made as a free-
standing film. Set against the background of the previous 16 episodes
it makes all the sense it needs to. My one and only criticism of the
producer would be that he never made it obvious enough at the time who
Number One was. But nowadays, with freeze-frame dvd, colour and big
telly's, it's dead easy to be exactly certain who that mad bloke in a
cloak resembled.
Graeme
> But you are still failing to notice that HE does not go back through
> the door, the butler does. You say it makes no difference who goes
> through the door but of course it does!
Well, the question, as I saw it was "Is Number 6 still a prisoner,
and, if so, in what sense?" Whether he KNOWS he's a prisoner seems
like a different question. He didn't see the caption reading
"Prisoner", and apparently didn't hear the door either, so he's not
aware of the signs we saw. He doesn't act like a man who thinks he's
still a prisoner. But is he? (And again, in what sense?)
>>The butler is exactly representing the compliant, *little*,silent majority man who goes back through the door, back into the army, back into the factory, whatever door you like to imagine - over and over and over again.
>>
That's the figurative meaning. I didn't understand literally why the
Butler joins Number Six (he never complied with him before) but the
literal meaning obviously has something to do with dialogue between
them that we never heard. (That part of the story wasn't written).
Another part of the story that didn't seem fully written was the whole
concept of Leo as a rebel who had bitten the hand that fed him. How?
By insisting on Degree Absolute? That hardly seems like an act of
ingratitude, if he was willing to put his life on the line to get what
they wanted.
> The compliant
> will always make themselves a prisoner. Number Six does not. He gets
> into his car and drives. We have no idea where he is going any more
> than we really knew where he came from. But he is not relying on
> others as Number 48 is, cadging a lift on any vehicle that is willing
> to stop for him. And he is certainly not interested in walking into
> the corridors of power alongside a new Number Two.
And yet, the caption still identifies No. 6 as "Prisoner".
> Or condemned for *never learning* ......... like
> the butler.
It all depends if the village organization still exists, and we're not
quite sure. If Leo went into Parliament to blow the lid on the thing,
then it may genuinely be safe for No. 6 to go back to No. 1 Buckingham
Place. If they're still after him, then he really hasn't learned a
thing since Many Happy Returns. And they really don't tell us.
> HE didn't go back to his apartment, other than to fetch his car and
> leave. At the very least his little buzzbomb goes faster than that
> hearse that lingers around and about.
You could be right. Maybe he just went to get his car and go into
hiding. He didn't seem to be, we saw him going into the City, rather
than out. In fact, we saw him crossing the Westminster Bridge,
looking for all the world, to be going back to the Abingdon Street Car
Park to see his boss. I don't think we're supposed to draw any
conclusions from that, though, as there's no way the viewer should
know that it was unused footage from the opening credits. And of
course someone who didn't know London wouldn't know whether he was
going into or out of town. So maybe he is going into hiding. Catch a
quick boat to Dover, and off to Kandersfeld. Well, maybe not there,
but somewhere.
But if that's the case, is he still a prisoner or not? He's on the
run, yes.
> He had escaped the village more than once before, or so he thought and
> they had always brought him back. This last time, the village blew
> itself up, so one thing seems for sure,he was not going back to that
> particular village. So he had escaped that one and he knew it.
Yes, though I've always believed that there's more than one. Any time
he finds someone he can trust, they're gone next week. There must be
some other place people can be transferred to, to split up cohorts.
And multiple Villages would explain how it seemed to be near Morocco
in one episode, and in central England in another.
That would be quite a way to mess with people's minds, as well.
Imagine more or less identical Villages, but in completely different
climates. The differences someone did notice would drive them crazy.
"Wasn't that cement beam over there last week? How could they
possibly move that?"
> I don't really see that at all. The episode was not made as a free-
> standing film. Set against the background of the previous 16 episodes
> it makes all the sense it needs to.
The key phrase is "needs to". If you're happy with the episode, then
that's certainly true.
> My one and only criticism of the
> producer would be that he never made it obvious enough at the time who
> Number One was.
Actually, I'm pretty forgiving of that. Any answer would be pretty
boring. It would probably be the British Prime Ministor, or the Head
of NATO, or something like that. And if it were someone we'd never
heard of before, what difference does it make?
If it were somebody we HAD heard of before, who could it be? The
Butler was too obvious (it seems like everyone thought of him). And
if the Butler had started speaking and revealed himself as No. 1, it
would be too much a copy of the end of Free For All. So, I don't know
who No. 1 could have been that wouldn't have been a "So what?" or a
"letdown". Cobb? Dutton? Maybe Hobbs from Danger Man, and the whole
thing has been Drake testing out Village Security while under a post-
hypnotic suggestion?
Or they could have done an "Owl Creek Bridge", and hda the whole
series be something that passed through Drake's mind when the gas came
in the keyhole, just before he died.
So many answers, and narrowing it down to one always seems like a
letdown.
> But nowadays, with freeze-frame dvd, colour and big
> telly's, it's dead easy to be exactly certain who that mad bloke in a
> cloak resembled.
Yes, it was Curtis. :) I guess he wasn't dead after all.
roger
news:0e0c777e-8723-4537...@g18g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
> But you are still failing to notice that HE does not go back through
> the door, the butler does. You say it makes no difference who goes
> through the door but of course it does!
You need to tread very cautiously here. There is always a danger that, in
jumping to conclusions, one of the conclusions may jump back.
The original ending, as scripted, goes have our hero walking slowly up he
steps and into the house. That is the very last scene, to the accompaniment
of 'Dem Bones'.
So the only question you're left with is whether the writer changed his mind
deliberately or, given the constraints of shooting time, that scene just
never happened.
Moor Larkin
> "Moor Larkin" <moorlar...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
McGoohan always claimed he was personally meticulous, and his constant
refrain about TV was that the people who made it were too fond of the
attitude: "That'll do, it's only television". Because he was a master
of every aspect of TV production detail by then, he was also able to
be totally flexible. He was no writer who sat glowering behind his
desk, complaining of his words being changed. He was making a TV show,
not writing a novel, and as he crafted it, he could visualise the
whole thing in all it's televisual aspects, and so he would have had
no difficulty about altering it as he went along. He hated ad-libbing
he said, which is a rather different thing altogether from the
capacity to cope with editorial change.
Didn't this happen with every single script anyhow? I've yet to read
of a prisoner script-writer who hasn't seemed to complain about
*their* script being changed, sometimes they seemed to claim the
change was out of all recognition of thier initial ideas and yet not
many of them seemed to have had much complaint in the end, about the
way that episode had turned out.
Insofar as that specific last episode change is concerned, it
demonstrates again that McGoohan was set upon some kind of optimisim
and realised the classical dystopian conclusion of the defeated hero
was not for him, or his show.
The show has to be *finally* judged by what is seen on-screen anyhow.
McGoohan took umbrage about the so-called "alternative" Chimes of Big
Ben (when it was marketed) because he regarded it as a rejected *cut*.
For a rejected *cut* of Episode 2 to have reached Canada means he must
have been tinkering globally with the show as well, and realised quite
late on in that process that to have allowed Number Six to be able to
fix the position of the village by the stars would chop a whole leg
off his fictional platforms, and so he excised the scene even after
that episode had evidentally been put in a can.
Once he started making that final episode he obviously realised that
to just have his Number Six walk tamely back into prison would make a
complete none sense of the entire series and so he communicated the
dystopian aspect of his allegory via the butler, and the spirit of Six
remained free, but not in a glib happy ending sort of way. He was as
free at the end as he had been at the start. I know Graham has spoken
of Number Six's buzzbomb squirming through London, but I was more
thinking of the very very very end... He is nowhere - just as he had
been seen the very very first time, after the very first crack of
thunder, all those weeks before.
Presumably by then, the butler was already brewing a fresh pot of tea
for Mrs. Butterworth....... :-))))))))))
redcat
crazy 48 up on the motorway before he gets arrested or run over.
Graeme
> The show has to be *finally* judged by what is seen on-screen anyhow.
> McGoohan took umbrage about the so-called "alternative" Chimes of Big
> Ben (when it was marketed) because he regarded it as a rejected *cut*.
> For a rejected *cut* of Episode 2 to have reached Canada means he must
> have been tinkering globally with the show as well, and realised quite
> late on in that process that to have allowed Number Six to be able to
> fix the position of the village by the stars would chop a whole leg
> off his fictional platforms, and so he excised the scene even after
> that episode had evidentally been put in a can.
Well, it's not just a bad scene, it's a glaringly bad scene. If he
knows how to make one of those gadgets, then why doesn't he know where
he is? How does he get fooled into believing he's in Lithuania if he
has a device that should have told him otherwise? And why would a
book showing how to make such a device by lying around in the
village? The scene not only adds nothing, it actually creates
problems.
Except for the "POP", all the other differences in the episode are in
the form of sound effects and incidental music changes (especially in
the credits). It's interesting to see the episode with different
music, but it doesn't add or subtract anything to the story, so not
worth getting upset about that.
This wasn't a rejected cut, it was actually seen onscreen. But
rejected cuts and preliminary scripts do get released from time to
time, often a LOT more different from the final product than this one
was, and they can provide insights into how a story was constructed.
roger
> The show has to be *finally* judged by what is seen on-screen anyhow.
I totally agree, but it is interesting on a core issue (well, core to you
and a number of others) that Patrick McGoohan wrote one thing, which was
typed up as the very last scene in the script, which would have been hugely
important as the final frames of such a monumental series, and for whatever
reason, accidentally or deliberately, went to the screen with the exact
opposite.
David Catterall
>> But nowadays, with freeze-frame dvd, colour and big
>> telly's, it's dead easy to be exactly certain who that mad bloke in a
>> cloak resembled.
>
> Yes, it was Curtis. :) I guess he wasn't dead after all.
Very, very clever and funny! One of the best bits of wild speculation I've
ever seen on this Forum.
Warm regards,
David
Moor Larkin
>Patrick McGoohan wrote one thing, which was
> typed up as the very last scene in the script, which would have been hugely
> important as the final frames of such a monumental series, and for whatever
> reason, accidentally or deliberately, went to the screen with the exact
> opposite.
Why on earth would it have been an accident? The "Accident Theory"
applied to the prisoner is just so ridiculous. I have read so many
bullshit reviews and books that seem to refuse to accept that McGoohan
decided anything hardly. Everything was somebody else or a fortunate
mistake. This began right from the beginnings of "Appreciation" when
one of the Troyer audience makes some remark about so many happy
accidents. That comment stemmed from McGoohan explaining how he had
evolved Rover from a daft go-kart into an illusory balloon, but in his
usual slightly self-deprecatory style.
What nobody seems to grasp is that ONLY McGoohan would have had the
authority to allow a daft go-kart to transmogrify into a balloon.
Just as ONLY McGoohan would have been the only person who could
possibly have had the authority to change his own bloody script !!
roger
> What nobody seems to grasp is that ONLY McGoohan would have had the
> authority to allow a daft go-kart to transmogrify into a balloon.
You really do think he's God, don't you?
:-)
> Just as ONLY McGoohan would have been the only person who could
> possibly have had the authority to change his own bloody script !!
But why change it? As it appears on screen is crucial to one of your
theories, but it is written as the exact opposite. A happy accident then
that it got filmed differently ...
Moor Larkin
> You really do think he's God, don't you?
> :-)
Not at all, although I understand why you have the god-delusion. St.
George he would be proud of you:
"I think McGoohan would like to be: God! He was very good as God"
http://www.the-prisoner-6.freeserve.co.uk/markstein.htm
As owner of the production company, executive producer, (not to
mention being the script-writer of two of the first six episodes to be
made) McGoohan was patently going to have to have approved of the
transmogrification of Rover from a machine into an imaginative device.
According to Bernie Williams he largely imagineered it too, but
regardless of that, it is a simple fact that he must have *approved*
of it. That doesn't make him God, it just makes him the boss.
On 16 Oct, 23:11, "roger" <roadNOs...@prizSPAM.biz> wrote:
> But why change it? As it appears on screen is crucial to one of your
> theories, but it is written as the exact opposite. A happy accident then
> that it got filmed differently ...
What an absurd thing to say. I have no especial a-priori *theory*. I
merely watched the programme and pointed out the fine detail of the
closing images of the final episode, which we are discussing, and
reminded Graeme that:
the butler went into the house with the mechanical door
the youth went looking for a random pick-up
the new Number two went back into the corridors of power
The escaped prisoner drove off in his car and is last seen nowhere in
particular.
These are observations. The general theory that Number Six is still a
prisoner of the village is not *exactly* what we see. I merely state
an observable and unarguable fact.
Your mentioning of the change to the original script emphasises that
this finale was no *accident*. As I understand from Andrew Pixley's
objective research, those final scenes at No1 Buckingham Place were
the last segment of filming to be done. Evidently, as the episode had
been being made, McGoohan had fine-tuned his composition and gave each
of his four protagonists their different paths. Given that McGoohan
was the Executive Producer, Director and Script-writer of the episode,
there would have been no cause for his original script to be changed,
if he had not at the very least agreed it was a good idea.
Technically, having him and the butler walk into the house and the
door close behind them was a lot easier than finding another Lotus-7
that they could finagle into a mimic of the original one - in order to
have the prisoner drive away in it instead. The fact that they went to
all that trouble makes it a certainty that the change was no
accident......... whatever it is meant to *mean*....... :-))))
roger
> Technically, having him and the butler walk into the house and the
> door close behind them was a lot easier than finding another Lotus-7
> that they could finagle into a mimic of the original one - in order to
> have the prisoner drive away in it instead.
The Lotus is already scripted into the finale, so the above doesn't read
right.
Dick Spanner
> On 2010-09-02 13:52:40 +0200, "Brian Watson" <Br...@imagebus.co.uk> said:
>
> >
> > "ss" <m...@thisis.invalid> wrote in message news:4c7f...@news.x-privat.org...
> >>
> >>>
> >>> "ss" <m...@thisis.invalid> wrote in message
> >>>> Hi
> >>>>
> >>>> After their escape Nr. 48 and Nr.2 are free and can proceed refusing to
> >>>> conform, while Nr.6 still is imprisoned just the village has changed.
> >>>> Right? :)
> >>>
> >>> I don't think that neccesarily follows.
> >>> Certainly, it appears that Number Two CHOOSES to go back to his old job.
> >>> Does that make him free?
> >>>
> >>> Number 48 chooses to go back to HIS rather feckless lifestyle, but is he
> >>> free?
> >>
> >> lifestyles as we all were, well more or less :) They are presented to us
> >> as nonconformists or some kind of revolutionists. So after coming back to
> >> London i'd say they _are_ free and can go on with being nonconformistic in
> >> their and now of course also our world. Ok they left it open if this is
> >> somehting good or bad ;)
> >> For me it looked like that the "plan" was to fire the rocket to free the
> >> world from those nonconformists (btw did McGoohan ever say where the
> >> rocket did go? :) ). After Nr.6 manages to initiate the launch that fails,
> >> they can escape and the world goes on...see above.
> >
> > Yep, I think you've got it right (meaning: "I agree" Lol)
> >
> > I always took it that Number Six was blasting HIS personal Number One into
> > space.
>
> Totally forgot about that scene with Nr.1. To be honest it looked a bit
> too surreal to me (the chimpanzee mask) to question.
>
> of deliverance.
>
> >
> >>> Number
> >>> Six is STILL in "The Village", as we all are.
> >>>
> >>> reason to stop TRYING to be free.
> >>
> >
> > It was in a kids' Saturday morning programme (of all places!)
>
> Sorry no idea.
>
> >>>> But was there any special meaning in reagard to the music i.e. Dem Bones
> >>>> and the Beatles song? IIRC there's not been any similarly occurance of
> >>>> music in the other episodes. So was there something i missed?
> >>>
> >>> There is LOTS of incidental music used in the series, but I think All You
> >>> catchy song that Number 48 annoys the parliament with.
> >>