Gustav Herschdorfer

[jack]

Is Gustav Herschdorfer a nom de plume of one of the writers of the
series, such as Joseph Serf was?

[jack]

On May 11, 10:01 am, jack <jackforst...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is Gustav Herschdorfer a nom de plume of one of the writers of the
> series, such as Joseph Serf was?

Apologies, it would seem that Gustav Herschdorfer's pen name was
'George Markstein'. Herschdorfer apparently was a rather colorful
personality who at one time impersonated Einstein's grandson, a
British MI5 agent and made claims to being a producer at Everyman
Films while acting only as script editor for a short while.

He claims to have written all the shows concepts in one account and
had been promised the whole series was to have been based on his
personal philosophy.

[Brian Watson]

"jack" <jackfo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ff6b9f10-384e-41a3...@s9g2000pbc.googlegroups.com...

This appears to be what we in England call "complete bollocks", in that I
have been unable to find any connection between any Gustav Herschdorfer and
George Markstein.
--
Brian
"Fight like the Devil, die like a gentleman."

[jack]

Most of the claim about Gustav Herschdorfer comes from this book.

Einstein's Daughter: The Search for Lieserl


Michele Zackheim - 2000 -
Although a troubled and perplexing man, George Markstein went on to become a famous writer of seven espionage novels and four television series, the most well-known being The Prisoner. He died in 1987. 

[John Ryerson]

The other part of the claim comes from a series of interviews by
someone called Goodman who headed some sort of society for the
preservation of The Prisoner.

The interviews placed Gustav Herschdorfer as being born in London
although Zackheim places his citizenship in Germany. His birth date is
in dispute as Zackheim gives it as 1926 yet Herschdorfer under his pen
name of George Markstein puts his birth date at 1929. These are the
interviews that state the concepts and the philosophy of The Prisoner
were exclusive to the 'George Markstein' nom de plume.

One other colorful claim has Herschdorfer ( under his pen name) posing
as an American reporter and a possible agent of the American spy
organization Office of Strategic Services from WW2, in contrast to the
claim of being an agent of British intelligence services.

Herschdorfer was certainly quite a colorful personality.

[Brian Watson]

"John Ryerson" <johnry...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3fe2f9df-5106-4226...@nw7g2000pbb.googlegroups.com...

On May 17, 12:05 pm, jack <jackforst...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Most of the claim about Gustav Herschdorfer comes from this book.
>
> Einstein's Daughter: The Search for Lieserl
>
> Michele Zackheim - 2000 -
> Although a troubled and perplexing man, George Markstein went on to become
> a famous writer of seven espionage novels and four television series, the
> most well-known being The Prisoner. He died in 1987.

I very much doubt if Markstein and Herschdorfer are the same person.

[jack]

On May 20, 2:08 am, "Brian Watson" <Br...@imagebus.co.uk> wrote:
> "John Ryerson" <johnryers...@gmail.com> wrote in message

The author Michele Zackheim had the full co-operation of
Herschdorfer's son Richard Markstein Herschdorfer, his literary
partner Jaqui Lyons and his birth records from Berlin to establish
Herschdorfer's identity . Herschdorfer's marriage certificate is on
file from when he worked in Southport England posing as an American
journalist.

All in all a very colorful life with much to be said about it.

[jack]

On May 20, 2:08 am, "Brian Watson" <Br...@imagebus.co.uk> wrote:

> "John Ryerson" <johnryers...@gmail.com> wrote in message

"Through the Menschik family, I found the writer George Markstein, not
knowing if he was the right George or not. But I tracked him to his
agent, Jacqui Lyons, in London and she confirmed that I had the right
Markstein."

Title: Einstein's Daughter: The Search for Lieserl
Author: Michele Zackheim
Publisher: Riverhead Hardcover
Publication date: Oct 25, 1999
Genre: Biographies & Memoirs, History, Science
ISBN: 1573221279
Binding: Hardcover
Dewey decimal number: 530.092
Number of pages: 301
ASIN: 1573221279

[redcat]

> Genre: Biographies& Memoirs, History, Science

> ISBN: 1573221279
> Binding: Hardcover
> Dewey decimal number: 530.092
> Number of pages: 301
> ASIN: 1573221279

This is interesting, if ancient, history. Shame George is gone and
cannot comment.

[Moor Larkin]

On May 21, 12:56 pm, redcat <red...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> This is interesting, if ancient, history. Shame George is gone and cannot comment.

So ancient in fact that it predates the entirely spurious "biography"
of Mr. Markstein given in several supposedly "authoritative" prisoner
books published in the years since Michele Zackheim's exemplary piece
of research.

I noticed Jack referenced my blog-roll in another Thread, so I'm
guessing a more recent blog of mine has put him on the trail of the
man who would like everyone to think he was the prisoner.

http://numbersixwasinnocent.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/george-markstein-in-his-own-words-i-am.html

"The background of George Markstein has been enormously embellished
purely in order to add credence to the idea that a man with no
experience in creative writing (George Markstein) had his genius
stolen by a mere egoist actor (Patrick McGoohan). What is especially
wrong about this, besides the fact that most of it is untrue, is that
all this nonsense has served to mask an incredible TRUE story about
the very same man - George Markstein - and his childhood and early
adulthood.

Remarkably that story was already told, back in 1999, several years
before the Noughties rash of official books about The Prisoner. The
true tale of George Markstein’s background and early life is far more
interesting that the fan-fantasy version. Perhaps it does not make
George Markstein a hero, but it goes quite some way to explain why he
was the secretive and mischievous man he became..... "

Moor

[roger]

"Moor Larkin" <moorl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6f497876-89ab-4c7c...@b26g2000vbt.googlegroups.com...

> "The background of George Markstein has been enormously embellished
purely in order to add credence to the idea that a man with no
experience in creative writing (George Markstein) had his genius
stolen by a mere egoist actor (Patrick McGoohan). What is especially
wrong about this, besides the fact that most of it is untrue,

What is untrue, what you've written or what you claim happened?

Decades on it's a crying shame that a handful of people still refuse to
accept that The Prisoner was a team effort with dozens of people involved,
not merely a Markstein versus McGoohan power struggle. Describing George as
possessing no creative writing ability and Patrick as a mere egoist actor
does you a huge disservice and undermines any argument you may have.

> secretive and mischievous

The Prisoner is a tv series about inter alia an individual's right to
privacy, to be secretive if one wishes and even mischievous too if the
clandestine circumstances require it.

Markstein and McGoohan created The Prisoner together - along with David
Tomblin, Jack Shampan, Ron Grainer etcetera etcetera. At some point you are
going to have deal with it.

[Moor Larkin]

On May 21, 4:39 pm, "roger" <roadNOs...@prizSPAM.biz> wrote:
> "Moor Larkin" <moorlar...@gmail.com> wrote in message

Ron Grainer?? Huh?........... :-D))))

McGoohan created The Prisoner - along with David Tomblin, Jack
Shampan, etcetera etcetera. but George Markstein had relatively little
to do with any of it. At some point you are going to have deal with
that. But I don't expect you to do so.

Anyone looking in will marvel as I do at your complete disinterest in
the startling TRUE biography of Markstein and that your only concern
is to badmouth someone who bothers to get off their butt and do
something about correcting a lot of the rubbish history out there
about the Prisoner and it's production. Perhaps you have a vested
interest in the history.

Insofar as McGoohan's real co-creators are concerned, you will find I
have written specific Blogs to deal with some of the important ones
lost in your etceteras: Brendan Stafford, Don Chaffey and Bernie
Williams in particular. it was Bernie who remarked in frustration once
that he couldn't understand how Markstein had got so much "credit"
when the contribution he had made to the show was [almost] zero.

Moor

For those on the Board not playing the wise monkey here's some Links:

Stafford:
http://numbersixwasinnocent.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/mcgoohan-in-his-own-words-you-cant-do.html

Williams:
http://numbersixwasinnocent.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/mcgoohan-tells-his-story-my-production.html

Chaffey:
http://numbersixwasinnocent.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/mcgoohan-in-his-own-words-i-was-writing.html

[roger]

"Moor Larkin" <moorl...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:f0ffdbc1-8c57-4e0b...@f30g2000vbz.googlegroups.com...

> Anyone looking in will marvel as I do at your complete disinterest in
the startling TRUE biography of Markstein

That's very comforting. While it's probably not possible to cultivate
disinterest, I do try to go through life even-handedly without any more bias
than I have to and so your words mean a lot. That's why I believe The
Prisoner to be a team effort: because I have a non-judgmental view on who
might have struck the first spark that created such a wonderful series with
so many people involved in every aspect of creation (script, design,
production, casting, music etcetera). I don't understand why you think Ron
Grainer contributed nothing to The Prisoner, but you're entitled to your
opinion, however unsupported.

Perhaps you are using the word 'create' to mean 'first thought of', while I
am using it in reference to the creation of one helluva tv series.

Perhaps you are using the word 'disinterested', when you actually mean
'uninterested'.

You do have a problem with words, which is a shame, as you obviously enjoy
using them a lot, even if they don't repay the compliment. It's the same
problem I have when I come to read your blogs (and I've made a couple of
attempts), but you tend to start with a presumption or prejudice and then
try to develop it selectively, which means that I lose interest (i.e. become
UNinterested, where I already was trying to be DISinterested), as what there
is of a subject line wanders off whatever course it might have had.

Your writing struggles to focus and reminds me of Roger Langley's - and for
those who think that might be a compliment:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/0953192644/ref=cm_cr_dp_hist_two/279-1758721-2554735?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&filterBy=addTwoStar

I suppose when you've grasped the difference between 'disinterested' and
'uninterested' you might be en route to taking a stronger grip on your
subject matter and, who knows, I'm sure you've a lot more to say on the
topic.
:-)

[Moor Larkin]

On May 21, 11:20 pm, "roger" <roadNOs...@prizSPAM.biz> wrote:
> "Moor Larkin" <moorlar...@gmail.com> wrote in message

>
> news:f0ffdbc1-8c57-4e0b...@f30g2000vbz.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Anyone looking in will marvel as I do at  your complete disinterest in
>
> the startling TRUE biography of Markstein
>
> That's very comforting. While it's probably not possible to cultivate
> disinterest, I do try to go through life even-handedly without any more bias
> than I have to and so your words mean a lot. That's why I believe The
> Prisoner to be a team effort: because I have a non-judgmental view on who
> might have struck the first spark that created such a wonderful series with
> so many people involved in every aspect of creation (script, design,
> production, casting, music etcetera). I don't understand why you think Ron
> Grainer contributed nothing to The Prisoner, but you're entitled to your
> opinion, however unsupported.
>
> Perhaps you are using the word 'create' to mean 'first thought of', while I
> am using it in reference to the creation of one helluva tv series.
>
> Perhaps you are using the word 'disinterested', when you actually mean
> 'uninterested'.
>
> You do have a problem with words, which is a shame, as you obviously enjoy
> using them a lot, even if they don't repay the compliment. It's the same
> problem I have when I come to read your blogs (and I've made a couple of
> attempts), but you tend to start with a presumption or prejudice and then
> try to develop it selectively, which means that I lose interest (i.e. become
> UNinterested, where I already was trying to be DISinterested), as what there
> is of a subject line wanders off whatever course it might have had.
>
> Your writing struggles to focus and reminds me of Roger Langley's - and for

> those who think that might be a compliment:http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/0953192644/ref=cm_cr_dp_hist_...

>
> I suppose when you've grasped the difference between 'disinterested' and
> 'uninterested' you might be en route to taking a stronger grip on your
> subject matter and, who knows, I'm sure you've a lot more to say on the
> topic.
> :-)

Being compared to the new No2 by the old No2 left me in doubt as to
the insult intended....... :-D

With regards to your Ron Grainer issues, I think you are confusing
someone making contributions to a creative enterprise with that same
someone being part of the creativity in the first place. I daresay
that if Patrick McGoohan had been making "On the Buses", Ron Grainer
would have come up with a suitable piece of music once he'd watched
the footage a couple of times and been given some guidance by the
creative forces behind the show. I know that Prisoner fans often like
to think the lady holding the teacup in a certain scene was a vital
part of the creative process, but whilst this might lend itself to
nice Socialist theorising, it's somewhat wide of the mark of real
life. It's that old chestnut of what changes the world the most? A
million people with £1, or one man with £1,000,000. That's not to say
that a plumber isn't far more useful sometimes than a movie star......
but only if you have a leaky pipe.

Anyhow, let's not make it a political thread Comrade...... :-D

[Brian Watson]

"Moor Larkin" <moorl...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:f0ffdbc1-8c57-4e0b...@f30g2000vbz.googlegroups.com...

On May 21, 4:39 pm, "roger" <roadNOs...@prizSPAM.biz> wrote:
> "Moor Larkin" <moorlar...@gmail.com> wrote in message

> Markstein and McGoohan created The Prisoner together - along with David
> Tomblin, Jack Shampan, Ron Grainer etcetera etcetera. At some point you
> are
> going to have deal with it.

: Ron Grainer?? Huh?........... :-D))))

Iconic, attention-grabbing, introductory music kicked off with a portentious
clap of thunder.

Yes, I'd say that was a significant part of the package.

[Brian Watson]

"Moor Larkin" <moorl...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:b1f40604-a6ff-4cfb...@em1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...

> Being compared to the new No2 by the old No2 left me in doubt as to
the insult intended....... :-D

> With regards to your Ron Grainer issues, I think you are confusing
someone making contributions to a creative enterprise with that same
someone being part of the creativity in the first place. I daresay
that if Patrick McGoohan had been making "On the Buses", Ron Grainer
would have come up with a suitable piece of music once he'd watched
the footage a couple of times and been given some guidance by the
creative forces behind the show. I know that Prisoner fans often like
to think the lady holding the teacup in a certain scene was a vital
part of the creative process, but whilst this might lend itself to
nice Socialist theorising, it's somewhat wide of the mark of real
life. It's that old chestnut of what changes the world the most? A
million people with £1, or one man with £1,000,000. That's not to say
that a plumber isn't far more useful sometimes than a movie star......
but only if you have a leaky pipe.

> Anyhow, let's not make it a political thread Comrade...... :-D

And, leaving plumbing comparisons aside too, it seems that Everyman Films
assembled the best team it could to make The Prisoner in ALL departments.

I rate Markstein as being good at the practical narrative aspects "there's
this guy, he's resigned from a top secret job. They want to know why" that
ran as a thread through the early episodes, whereas McGoohan did that AND
integrated the more philosophical and moral aspects.

Once the premise was established, McGoohan could manage without Markstein.

[Moor Larkin]

On May 23, 10:09 am, "Brian Watson" <Br...@imagebus.co.uk> wrote:
> I rate Markstein as being good at the practical narrative aspects

Or, as Bernie Williams put it,
"George was just making sure that each show had so many lines, so many
pages, and the first second and third act, which are the requirements
of television. George did contribute some ideas but I always thought
he was a lucky man."

Not my words.
Moor.

[jack]

With Zackheim firmly establishing Gustav Herschdorfer under the
'George Markstein' pen name it would seem that the author might be
able to answer  questions about when Gustav had begun to pose as an
American journalist in 1947.

Goodman could be queried about the issues of Herschdorfer having made
claims to have created the entire series based on his exclusive
concepts and philosophy under the 'George Markstein' pen name.

[Moor Larkin]

On May 23, 8:38 pm, jack <jackforst...@gmail.com> wrote:
> With Zackheim firmly establishing Gustav Herschdorfer under the
> 'George Markstein' pen name it would seem that the author might be
> able to answer  questions about when Gustav had begun to pose as an
> American journalist in 1947.

You could maybe drop her a line Jack..... ;-)
http://www.michelezackheim.com/

>Herschdorfer having made
> claims to have created the entire series based on his exclusive
> concepts and philosophy under the 'George Markstein' pen name

Nothing wrong with a pen name.... says Moor Larkin......... :-D

To be fair to George, reading Michele's book, it is clear that Gustav
Georg was a Markstein long before he became hyphenated due to his
stepfather adopting him. What is much more remarkable is that Zygmunt
changed his own name to "Markstein-Herschdoerfer", presumably to
reflect his love for his wife. It really is a most touching story of
apparent devotion. Sadly, it seemed to have no happy ending for any of
them.

When George worked for the staff magazine published from the US 3rd
Airforce Base at Ruislip, in the early 1950's, he wrote under the pen-
name, "George Mark" and his column was called "On the Mark". Sadly, it
seems unlikely now that anyone will now be able to shed any light on
that choice. However his record there does confirm that George wasn't
busy putting Europe back together after WWII with British
Intelligence, in contradiction to the notions put forward in published
"Prisoner Histories"

[Brian Watson]

"Moor Larkin" <moorl...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:60ab6df5-10ae-41a5...@d17g2000vbv.googlegroups.com...

..and I'm not arguing with them.

[jack]

The first Herschdofrer impersonation of Einstein's grandson did
transpire under the altered German spelling from Georg to George as
documented by Zackheim. Herschdorfer then signed a number of legal
documents exclusively under the Herschdorfer family name without
reference to the hyphenated Markstein which with the English spelling
of George became the professional name 'George Markstein', under which
Herschdorfer posed as an American journalist in 1947 (with rumored
O.S.S. work).

Herschdorfer then went on to eventually become the London born creator
of The Prisoner and other espionage novels posing this time as being
of English descent as proposed in th series of Goodman interviews
where under the 'George Markstein' pen name Herschdorfer claimed
exclusive conception of The Prisoner series.

Herschdorfer in this third incarnation was credited with work in MI5
as opposed to rumors of work with the O.S.S.

The sorting out of the pen name of 'George Markstein' is possible with
the research in the Zackheim book. The rest of some of the claims made
under the pen name would require a review of the Goodman interviews.

[Brian Watson]

"jack" <jackfo...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:842d4db6-6042-4d72...@ra8g2000pbc.googlegroups.com...

> The first Herschdofrer impersonation of Einstein's grandson did
> transpire under the altered German spelling from Georg to George as
> documented by Zackheim. Herschdorfer then signed a number of legal
> documents exclusively under the Herschdorfer family name without
> reference to the hyphenated Markstein which with the English spelling
> of George became the professional name 'George Markstein', under which
> Herschdorfer posed as an American journalist in 1947 (with rumored
> O.S.S. work).
>
> Herschdorfer then went on to eventually become the London born creator
> of The Prisoner

Ahem, CO-creator (if this IS the same feller).

[roger]

"jack" <jackfo...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:6ace3ee4-7668-42c4...@pa10g2000pbc.googlegroups.com...

> Goodman could be queried about the issues of Herschdorfer having made
> claims to have created the entire series based on his exclusive
> concepts and philosophy under the 'George Markstein' pen name.

Well, he could be if it were true but that whole sentence is nonsense.
George never claims exclusivity to the series. He has been on record for
decades as saying:

"'The Prisoner' is really the sum total of the work and devotion of a
magnificent team and they were all towers of strength. David Tomblin, I
mean, there couldn't have been a 'Prisoner' without David, Jack Shampan, the
art director - what he contributed! He was way ahead of television design.
And of course the writers, naturally I'm prejudiced about the writers who
played the absolute key role ... people like Tony Skene, Louis Greifer,
Gerald Kelsey and others. You know, it's not the McGoohan opera, it really
isn't.
"McGoohan is a brilliant actor - was a brilliant actor - and without
McGoohan there would have been no 'Prisoner', but without the art director
there wouldn't have been a 'Prisoner', without David Tomblin there wouldn't
have been a 'Prisoner' without the scripts there wouldn't have been a
'Prisoner'. It's not a one man show, any more than it should be a cult of
deep meaning to our day and age. It is not a solo effort, it was a team
effort and I was very lucky to be a member of that team and, by God,
McGoohan was very lucky to have that team round him."

I still find it astonishing that there are those who want to bang Patrick's
one-man-band drum for him, but there are and I guess it takes all sorts.
:-)

[redcat]

And there would not have been The Prisoner without Portmeirion. Further,
there would be no Portmeirion as we know it without The Prisoner. The
show contributed enormously to Portmeirion's popularity and bottom line.

Yes, we can take it back to Secret Agent/DangerMan. Does anyone know who
was the brilliant location scout who discovered PM? Did Ralph Smart find
it via a holiday ad and take his family on a scouting trip?

Thank you, Sir Clough, for turning your vision into reality. :-)

[jack]

Herschdorfer under the 'George Markstein' pen name made his claims of
exclusive creation of The Prisoner concept in 1978 as reported by
Goodman. Zackheim places Herschdorfer as passing in January 1987.

[Moor Larkin]

On May 26, 11:03 pm, redcat <red...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> On 5/26/2012 11:58 AM, roger wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> > "jack"<jackforst...@gmail.com>  wrote in message

Brian Clemens once referred to the "Production Manager" using
Portmeirion because it looked like Italy. That would make it Douglas
Twiddy who perhaps led Patrick McGoohan to make his first visit there
in 1960. Of course Twiddy may well have been sent there by Ralph
Smart, just as Markstein was told by McGoohan what sort of stories
needed editing.

The idea that The Prisoner would have not been The Prisoner without
Portmeirion is analagous to the idea that the Prisoner would not have
been The Prisoner without Ron Grainer. The Prisoner would undoubtedly
have looked different and sounded different without either of them,
but it would still have existed. Portmeirion probably has more claim
to co-creator status than Ron Grainer however as it was at least
involved in the programme at the beginning, when Patrick McGoohan
showed Lew the pictures he had (I have wondered if they were tha same
ones he had kept from 1960 and whether he had managed to adopt the
charcoal *paintings* of Portmeirion from the Danger Man episode "View
from the Villa)). Ron Grainer on the other hand wasn't even asked to
write any tunes until most of the filming had been done, so he
certainly merits collaborationist status, but hardly co-creator.....
but then where does one draw the line once one starts diluting the
power of the individual?

Apropos Portmeirion, Markstein also claimed to have not only had the
idea for The Prisoner on the 6.21train from Waterloo one day, but also
to have selected the location of Portmeirion from a magazine; whether
he was supposed to have read that on the same train I'm not sure. The
man was quite absurd at times.

[jack]

The heroic image of a lone writer responsible for the employment of an
entire ITC television crew, as reported in the Goodman accounts, is
consistent with earlier exaggerations by  Herscdorfer as documented by
Zackheim. Much like the claim of being Einstein's grandson or later
accounts of secret service activities under the 'George Markstein' pen
name.

There would seem to be the possibility to validate a portion of the
account given under the 'George Markstein' pen name if there existed a
copy of the magazine in which the images of Portmeirion were
referenced.

[jack]

Herschdorfer under the 'George Markstein' pen name made the following
publicity claim in one of the Goodman accounts.

"...George Markstein is the man whose new novel of the espionage world
is publicised as "the creator of THE PRISONER".

'Alert' 1978

[Brian Watson]

"jack" <jackfo...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:99f4617c-c33a-4c87...@vy7g2000pbc.googlegroups.com...

> "...George Markstein is the man whose new novel of the espionage world
> is publicised as "the creator of THE PRISONER".
>
> 'Alert' 1978

That sentence makes no sense.

Besides, it's whoever wrote that sentence, not Markstein, who (if it makes
ANY sense at all) is said to be the creator of The Prisoner.

He wasn't, not on his own.

[redcat]

On 5/30/2012 5:39 AM, Brian Watson wrote:
> "jack"<jackfo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:99f4617c-c33a-4c87...@vy7g2000pbc.googlegroups.com...
>
>> "...George Markstein is the man whose new novel of the espionage world
>> is publicised as "the creator of THE PRISONER".
>>
>> 'Alert' 1978
>
> That sentence makes no sense.
>
> Besides, it's whoever wrote that sentence, not Markstein, who (if it makes
> ANY sense at all) is said to be the creator of The Prisoner.
>
> He wasn't, not on his own.

That confusing sentence, if analyzed, states that the novel is
publicised as "the creator of The Prisoner".

Of course, everybody knows that even if a book could type The Cooler
appeared well after the creation of The Prisoner.

[roger]

"redcat" <red...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:MPydnd0bj8lCv1vS...@earthlink.com...

> That confusing sentence, if analyzed, states that the novel is publicised
> as "the creator of The Prisoner".
>
> Of course, everybody knows that even if a book could type The Cooler
> appeared well after the creation of The Prisoner.

That said (and quite correctly), I do rather like the surrealistic irony
that The Cooler, or Inverlair Lodge, may well have actually lead in its own
lairy way to the creation of The Prisoner.

"Inverlair Lodge is one our more interesting subjects, having taken part in
the secret training operations carried out in the isolation of Scotland
during World War II. This past history was to become the inspiration for the
1960 television series, The Prisoner."
http://secretscotland.wordpress.com/2008/09/05/inverlair-lodge-for-sale/

[Brian Watson]

"roger" <roadN...@prizSPAM.biz> wrote in message
news:RqGdnZqkk5bFClvS...@brightview.co.uk...

AN inspiration, not THE inspiration.

A piece of the story of the series' creation, probably.

[roger]

"Brian Watson" <Br...@imagebus.co.uk> wrote in message
news:0qednRol7uYJm1rS...@bt.com...

> AN inspiration, not THE inspiration.
>
> A piece of the story of the series' creation, probably.

Absolutely. The Prisoner's creation was a mosaic. Apart from Rob Fairclough,
few seem to reference the time, the mid-1960s, an era that led to so much
creativity in so many fields. The idea that anyone, Patrick, George, Tom,
Dick or Harry, awoke one day with The Prisoner fully formed in their mind
and single-handedly transmitted it to the screen is nonsense and moreso does
a great disservice to wealth of talent involved at every level of production
and creation.

[Moor Larkin]

On May 31, 7:07 am, "roger" <roadNOs...@prizSPAM.biz> wrote: The

Prisoner's creation was a mosaic. Apart from Rob Fairclough, few seem
to reference the time, the mid-1960s, an era that led to so much
creativity in so many fields.

Fairclough's imagination was working over-time when he wrote his potty
potted biography of Gustav, or perhaps he was being fed the lines by
someone who he thought knew so much. Shame he didn't do any research
of his own. Michele Zackheim could have taught him a thing or two.



On May 31, 7:07 am, "roger" <roadNOs...@prizSPAM.biz> wrote: The idea

that anyone, Patrick, George, Tom, Dick or Harry, awoke one day with
The Prisoner fully formed in their mind and single-handedly
transmitted it to the screen is nonsense and moreso does a great
disservice to wealth of talent involved at every level of production
and creation.

I'm having Troyer deja-vu:

"Boy: What interested me was the style in which it was done and the
whimsy and the hundreds of little touches, but from what you've been
saying so far, they all seem to have been accidents. You know, the
white balloon was a accident and you happened upon the Village...

McGoohan: Oh, yeah...

Boy: And it's, you know, incredibly lucky.

McGoohan: Yeah, but you...no, no, no, no...There were these pages,
don't forget, at the very beginning, which laid out the whole concept;
these forty-odd pages laid out the whole concept. That was no
accident.

Boy: No, but the little touches...

McGoohan: Those things come anyway.

Boy: But I haven't seen them come very often in any other series.

McGoohan: But they come because you're looking for them, you see. I
was fortunate to have two or three creative people working with me,
like my friend that I said saw the meteorological balloon. And
wherever one could find these little touches, one put them in. But the
design of the "Prisoner" thing, that was all clearly laid out from the
outset.

Boy: And the style of the way...

McGoohan: And the style was also clearly laid out and the designs of
the sets, those were all clearly laid out from the inception of it.
There was no accident in that area, you know, the blazers, and the
numbers and all that stuff, and the stupid little bicycles and all
that.

Troyer: Was it a series, do you think, which had an appeal, a kind of
narrow-gauge appeal, chiefly to people in the upper twenty percent of
the intelligence quotient bracket or whatever?

McGoohan: Mostly intelligent people...such as we have here?"


Good old Patrick. he loved his own little jokes and I'm sure he
laughed like a drain when he heard the one about George inventing the
whole thing on the 6.21 train to Waterloo........ :-)))

[Brian Watson]

"Moor Larkin" <moorl...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:e1946f07-ec87-4678...@j9g2000vbk.googlegroups.com...

On May 31, 7:07 am, "roger" <roadNOs...@prizSPAM.biz> wrote: The
> Prisoner's creation was a mosaic. Apart from Rob Fairclough, few seem
to reference the time, the mid-1960s, an era that led to so much
creativity in so many fields.

> Fairclough's imagination was working over-time when he wrote his potty
potted biography of Gustav, or perhaps he was being fed the lines by
someone who he thought knew so much. Shame he didn't do any research
of his own. Michele Zackheim could have taught him a thing or two.

You are stupid, ignorant, and wrong (though not necessarily in that order).

I happen to know Robert Fairclough well enough to know that he put a huge
amount of work into personally researching the several publications he has
written on The Prisoner, including accessing archive materials not
previously used and interviewing many of the people involved with the
production of The Prisoner.

He even had a brief (VERY brief) conversation with McGoohan.

I presume your own blatherings are all based on your first hand research and
interviews?

[roger]

"Moor Larkin" <moorl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e1946f07-ec87-4678...@j9g2000vbk.googlegroups.com...

> Shame he didn't do any research of his own.

That is an unforgivable slur on an author who has done more to further the
cause of The Prisoner than you ever will. Rob has done a huge amount of
research into all his projects.
He has such a positive approach to the series, whereas yours is so
negative. Your near-unreadable blog is depressing beyond belief.
There's an old saying, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything
at all". If you took that on board, I doubt we'd hear from you again.

[jack]

This biography by Fairclough of Herschdorfer under the 'George
Markstein' pen name sounds interesting, Was Fairclough, with the
interviews, able to resolve the many claims of Herschdorfer about work
for the OSS, SOE and MI6 in order to have been the sole creator of the
concepts for The Prisoner? Was he, in this biography, able to resolve
if these claims were just impersonations by Herschdorfer like posing
as Einstein's grandson, or as an American journalist, or as being a
London born fleet street journalist as reported by Goodman?

If so this could be very helpful in sorting out Herschdorfer's many
claims and impersonations under the 'George Markstein' pen name as
reported by Zackheim, Goodman and now Fairclough in this biography.

[redcat]

LOL! Well put, Roger!

[roger]

"Moor Larkin" <moorl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e1946f07-ec87-4678...@j9g2000vbk.googlegroups.com...

> McGoohan: Yeah, but you...no, no, no, no...these forty-odd pages laid out
> the whole concept.

The heroic image of a lone actor responsible for the employment of an entire
ITC television crew as reported in the Larkin accounts is consistent with
earlier exaggerations by Ryerson posing under the nom de plume
'tommcfearsom' as documented by Larkin.

There would seem to be the possibility to validate a portion of the account

given under the 'Moor Larkin' pen name if there existed a copy of the
"forty-odd pages" in which the imaginations of Prisoner were referenced.

[jack]

There is in the New York Times a book review that includes mention of
Portmeirion in October 16, 1966. Such a book review at a date earlier
in 1966 could lend support to Herschdorfer's account under the George
Markstein pen name.



SPEAKING OF BOOKS: Walk in Wales; Wales Walk in

By JONATHAN WILLIAMS ();
October 16, 1966,
, Section International Economic Survey, Page 317

[jack]

There is an article in the Christian Science Monitor in October 1966
that contains  photos of Portmeirion. This is to late a date to
validate the Herschdorfer account under the 'George 'Markstein' pen
name as reported in the Goodman items.

Hopefully Fairclough and Goodman will not be put off responding by the
improper editing of another persons post.

[jack]

Thank you to those with informative posts about the matter of Gutav
Herschdorfer's use of the 'George Markstein' pen name.

[roger]

"Moor Larkin" <moorl...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:6b95811b-2908-4dc9...@b5g2000pbm.googlegroups.com...

There is a document of forty-odd pages in the Welsh National Library from
October 1966. This is to late a date to validate the McGoohan account, as
reported under the pen name 'Moor Larkin'.

Hopefully Ryerson and Larkin will not be put off responding by the improper

[roger]

> "Moor Larkin" <moorlar...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d250015c-82de-451b...@b1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...

> Well, in this Thread, we are discussing Gustav Markstein-Herschdorfer,
not The Prisoner as such,

Well, some contributors may want to, although I haven't seen much queuing or
coat-holding, but you, in the majority of your posts in this thread, keep
returning to your obsession with Patrick McGoohan. To monopolise remains
your right as a gentleman however. Enjoy.

[ema]

On 31 Mai, 21:03, "roger" <roadNOs...@prizSPAM.biz> wrote:
> "Moor Larkin" <moorlar...@gmail.com> wrote in message

I recall it was Disney's Thumper who promoted the adage of only saying
nice things. A rabbit with big feet is always worth listening to I
supppose. I have no idea what "the cause" of The Prisoner is. I do
like to further the intelligence of human knowledge by debunking some
of the nonsensical mythology about that show, and the downright lies
spread about who were the driving forces behind it.

So far as I could tell, Fairclough's research into Markstein seemed to
mostly involve his listening to your stories of having lunch with the
man, which no doubt explains much of the reason why most of it doesn't
bear any factual scrutiny. The story of the £30 lunch I always found a
good one, something to do with royalties it said. I also enjoyed
reading how Markstein's "wartime experience" "in Europe" "after the
war" led to his knowing about the secrets of the SOE, whereas in fact
writing for the 3rd Airforce staff magazine in Ruslip in the 1950's
was as close as George Markstein ever got to any war, other than
hearing the bombs drop on Liverpool of course, just as McGoohan may
have heard them dropping on Sheffield, or perhaps Coventry.

On the other hand, the traumatic events of Markestein's boyhood in
Berlin and his flight across Europe with his mother, in 1934 or so I
find very interesting, largely because they are true, and perhaps
because they help to make much more sense of the man he evidently
later became. I find your own apparent disinterest in the real
background to your old friend quite disheartening. Perhaps his real
life seems not so nice to you as your own fantasies were, and so the
rabbit adage comes into play. Nothing like being a happy bunny I
suppose.

[roger]

"Moor Larkin" <moorlar...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:c4c93cb0-0c9f-4072...@x39g2000yqx.googlegroups.com...

> I find your own apparent DISinterest in the real background

I see you've learned nothing from this thread.
:-)

[Brian Watson]

"ema" <mange...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:d250015c-82de-451b...@b1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...

> Well, in this Thread, we are discussing Gustav Markstein-Herschdorfer,

not The Prisoner as such, and George Markstein's background biography
seems to have been scrupulously documented back in 1999 by Michele
Zackheim, but the fascinating history of the man seems to have passed
all your eminent Researchers since that date.

My point is that mud is being slung at Robert Fairclough, a man who HAS
personally done extensive research and interviews with most of the people
concerned with the making of The Prisoner.

> I appreciate that maybe you still do not accept that Gustav and George
to be the same person however, in which case we are hardly to be
expected to agree on anything anyway.

Huh? That is a very illogical conclusion to draw and it is not true.

> I'm not quite sure why you are
so resistant to this however, seeing as it is very much a fact, as was
explained by Jack early in the Thread, as Zackheim's account
references both Markstein's own son, who provides a photograph of his
dad aged ten, plus Ms Zackheim also details her contact with
Markstein's later business partner, Jacqui Lyons, who also confirmed
Zackheim had the right man. To disbelieve remains your right as a gentleman
however.

I am sceptical about the matter, but am prepared to say that Gustav
Herschdorfer may have changed his name for all sorts of reasons to George
Markstein.

The discussion widened to include all sorts of daft assertions by Moor
Larkin about the series.

> Enjoy.

Usenet is like that. Enjoy.

[Moor Larkin]

On 5 Jun., 09:07, "Brian Watson" <Br...@imagebus.co.uk> wrote:
> I am sceptical about the matter, but am prepared to say that Gustav
> Herschdorfer may have changed his name for all sorts of reasons to George
> Markstein.

I'm puzzled as to why you remain sceptical. Most of the passages about
Grete Markstein and her son and his eventual stepfather are viewable
via the Look Inside feature at Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/Einsteins-Daughter-The-Search-Lieserl/dp/1573221279
If memory serves me correctly you can find all the mentions of co-
operation that Michele Zackheim received from Richard Markstein (one
of George's sons) and Jacqui Lyons (his eventual business partner). I
have a copy of the book so pardon me if I assert something that turns
out not to be quite true, but these references are certainly viewable
if you buy the book. Mine only cost 99p plus carraige, so it's cheaper
than buying Fairclough's book, which insofar as George Markstein is
concerned, is largely specious.... not that that is his fault as I
guess he was only repeating stories he had been told by someone else.
Zackheim on the other hand obtained Birth Certificates in Berlin, and
Marraige and Death Certificates in Britain. This is the difference
between writing up a script supplied by others and actual research of
your own.

George did not exactly change his name. He was christened Gustav
Georg Markstein - the same surname as his mother at the time. His name
was later naturalised in the UK to Markstein-Herschdorfer because that
was the full name his step-father adopted when he married Grete in
1935. Shortly after that, for unknown reasons, Grete started trying to
persuade friends of Albert Einsten in Oxford, that she was Einstein's
"hidden" daughter, and seems to have therefore tried to convince
George to present himself as Einstein's grandson. George was about ten
then, as he was actually born in 1926, not 1929 as much of the
internet reports. This would make him just on 40, when Patrick
McGoohan gave him his first break into television writing in 1966.

Glad to see that while sceptical you are not so uninterested as the
old No2 seems to be. The importance of all of this is not George's
personal business, which was his own, but rather to debunk the
biography given for him in Prisoner books, where he is held up as "the
genius behind the whole thing"... as he liked to refer to himself...
not that the Prisoner was all the work of just one man of
course... ;-))

Moor

[roger]

"Moor Larkin" <moorl...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:55a66104-d81b-4fb2...@v9g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...

> as he was actually born in 1926, not 1929 as much of the
> internet reports.

including the internet site of Jacqui Lyons (his eventual business partner),
who you would have thought would want to get it right.

> Glad to see that while sceptical you are not so UNinterested as

Hooray! Slowlearn perhaps, but a ripple of applause for Moor/ema/jack
changing their ways

> but rather to debunk the
> biography given for him in Prisoner books, where he is held up as "the
> genius behind the whole thing"

Where exactly does Michele Zackheim say he isn't behind The Prisoner?

[Moor Larkin]

On 5 Jun., 13:07, "roger" <roadNOs...@prizSPAM.biz> wrote:
> "Moor Larkin" <moorlar...@gmail.com> wrote in message

>
> news:55a66104-d81b-4fb2...@v9g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
>
> > as he was actually born in 1926, not 1929 as much of the
> > internet reports.
>
> including the internet site of Jacqui Lyons (his eventual business partner),
> who you would have thought would want to get it right.

That is weird I agree. However seeing George also credited there for
"scripting" the car chase in "Bullit" makes me wonder if the webmaster
is paying prioper attention. I also like how the website describes
McGoohan at the time of The Prisoner, as an "up and coming
actor"..... :-D

I sort of apologise for ema... that was my mistake when using a guest
machine and not noticing I was using the previous user's id., who had
evidently forgotten to sign out. Possibly moor embarrassing for them
if they should ever notice.... ;-)) Beware shared machines!!.... :-
D

Jack however has however either read my blog or merely stumbled over
the 1999 pre-Fairclough Zackheim book independently. I was pleased to
be seeing him[?] but first became aware of him when he asked about
Prisoner production information sources a few threads ago.

ML

[Brian Watson]

"Moor Larkin" <moorl...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:55a66104-d81b-4fb2...@v9g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...

> On 5 Jun., 09:07, "Brian Watson" <Br...@imagebus.co.uk> wrote:
>> I am sceptical about the matter, but am prepared to say that Gustav
>> Herschdorfer may have changed his name for all sorts of reasons to George
>> Markstein.
>

> I guess he <Fairclough>was only repeating stories he had been told by
> someone else.

I think you'll find that is called "research" and generally respected as
much as other methods.

[redcat]

On 6/6/2012 4:37 AM, Brian Watson wrote:
> "Moor Larkin"<moorl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:55a66104-d81b-4fb2...@v9g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
>> On 5 Jun., 09:07, "Brian Watson"<Br...@imagebus.co.uk> wrote:
>>> I am sceptical about the matter, but am prepared to say that Gustav
>>> Herschdorfer may have changed his name for all sorts of reasons to George
>>> Markstein.
>>
>> I guess he<Fairclough>was only repeating stories he had been told by
>> someone else.
>
> I think you'll find that is called "research" and generally respected as
> much as other methods.
>

Unless it's about weapons of mass destruction. In that case you should
simply *know* someone is pulling your leg. Isn't that so?

[roger]

"Moor Larkin" <moorl...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:9a1e68a5-d884-4c8f...@p27g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...

> I was pleased to
> be seeing him[?] but first became aware of him when he asked about
> Prisoner production information sources a few threads ago.

Really? I thought you'd known Ryerson for ages. In fact why don't you ask
him to channel George so that the "truth" can be told? Or Patrick so that we
can have a balanced channel?
:-)

And you're not getting away with sidestepping my last question:

> but rather to debunk the
> biography given for him in Prisoner books, where he is held up as "the
> genius behind the whole thing"

Where exactly does Michele Zackheim say he isn't behind The Prisoner?

I don't mind who answers, Moor, Ryerson or "Jack", they're virtually
indistinguishable in their bias.

[Moor Larkin]

On 6 Jun., 19:58, "roger" <roadNOs...@prizSPAM.biz> wrote:
> And you're not getting away with sidestepping my last question:

> Where exactly does Michele Zackheim say he isn't behind The Prisoner?

The Grete chapter was mostly about George's mother. Jack gave a resume
of the most opinonated comment she made about George, in Post 4 of
this Thread.

So far as I recall, even David Tomblin professed no clear idea about
what the show was about or how it was all going to end. Given that he
and George co-operated on the pilot script, I'm baffled as to how
David couldn't grasp how, as George says, it was so simple all
along.... Danger Man, you dope.

It also begs the question of how the heck McGoohan could have even
written Free For All, whilst George and David were struggling over
Arrival, without George available to tell Patrick what to write. Even
Markstein accepted he never touched McGoohan's scripts. I think the
exact quote to you that George made in his letter of 1978 was, "Most
of the storylines, except those conjured up by McGoohan, were mine, or
were suggested by me."

Obviously you also subscribe to the theory that research is believing
what you are told by someone-else, but even if you believe George was
"the genius behind the whole thing".... how was it that McGoohan knew
how to write "Free For All" and "Degree Absolute" at such an early
stage of production? George's stories unfortunately break down once
confronted by reality, just as Zackheim demonstrates George's
"Prisoner" biography breaks down when similarly actually checked by a
researcher.

On 6 Jun., 19:58, "roger" <roadNOs...@prizSPAM.biz> wrote:
> I don't mind who answers, Moor, Ryerson or "Jack", they're virtually
> indistinguishable in their bias.

If only there were a Gordon huh?..... :-D

[roger]

"Moor Larkin" <moorl...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:8e8a6d7c-d6b4-4b5c...@z19g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...

> The Grete chapter was mostly about George's mother. Jack gave a resume
> of the most opinonated comment she made about George, in Post 4 of
> this Thread.

So absolutely nothing about George not being behind The Prisoner, just the
usual non sequitur stuff from Moor/Ryerson/"Jack".

> Even
> Markstein accepted he never touched McGoohan's scripts. I think the
> exact quote to you that George made in his letter of 1978 was, "Most
> of the storylines, except those conjured up by McGoohan, were mine, or
> were suggested by me."

Further all too familiar non sequitur stuff from Moor/Ryerson/"Jack".

> Obviously you also subscribe to the theory that research is believing
> what you are told by someone-else,

Standard presumptive opening, typical of Moor/Ryerson/"Jack".

> If only there were a Gordon huh?..... :-D

No problem, we've got our Moor/Ryerson/"Jack" - and thanks for demonstrating
it, by not answering any of my questions.

[Dick Spanner]

On Friday, May 11, 2012 at 6:01:57 PM UTC+1, jack wrote:
> Is Gustav Herschdorfer a nom de plume of one of the writers of the
> series, such as Joseph Serf was?