[MSTed] Re: Creationism Is Correct?
Roger M. Wilcox
DR. F: This week's experiment features a genuine Swami. Or at least he
calls himself that. Its entitled "Re: Creationism is Correct?", but
is actually a love story turned murder mysetery, uh, with Harley
bikers and break dancing and just a touch of Film Noir.
[S of L]
MIKE: Oh, it is NOT!
[Deep 13]
DR. F: You're right. [grins] Eat this!
[S of L]
[Lights flash]
MIKE: Oh no -- POSTING SIGN!!
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vault door
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>Article 62458 (3778 more) in sci.astro:
TOM: What, this article was posed to only ONE newsgroup?
MIKE: Doctor Forrester must be losing his touch.
CROW: Then again, sci.astro did give us ... ABIAN!!
TOM: Oh, THANKS, Crow, I JUST succeeded in pushing Abian out of my mind last
weekend, and YOU had to go and remind me!
>From: she...@peg.apc.org (Madhudvisah dasa Swami)
>Subject: Re: Creationism Is Correct?
>Date: Thu, 01 Jun 1995 03:47:59 GMT
>Organization: Shelter International
>Lines: 181
>NNTP-Posting-Host: t0.dialup.peg.apc.org
>X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent v0.46
TOM: Located between Forte Sumter and Forte Knox.
>
>
>K...@mfs1.ballarat.edu.au (Kevin Moore) wrote:
>
>>In article <3pud6r$d...@dingo.cc.uq.oz.au> she...@peg.apc.org (Madhudvisah
>>dasa Swami) writes:
>
>>>K...@mfs1.ballarat.edu.au (Kevin Moore) wrote:
>
>>>>In article <3oreuj$5...@dingo.cc.uq.oz.au> she...@peg.apc.org (Madhudvisah dasa
>>>Swami) writes:
MIKE: Okay, everybody got that so far?
CROW: Uh, yeah, Mad Hud Vista da Swami is quoting Kevin Moore, who's quoting
da Swami, who's quoting Moore, who's quoting Swami.
TOM: I think these two have yet to discover private e-mail.
>
>>>
>>> Much spiritual knowledge describes things which are beyond the
>>> perception of your senses, therefore science cannot come to grips with
>>> them. You choose to ignore them. BUT_YOU_CAN'T_PROVE_THEY_DON'T_EXIST!
TOM: Uh, Mister Swami, the words "Invisible Purple Unicorn" come to mind.
>
>>And you can't prove that they do. This is hardly a basis on which to claim
>>absolute truth, now is it? Your argument here is "You can't prove it doesn't
>>exist, therefore I can claim that it's true." Piffle.
CROW: That reminds me, Mike, have you seen my Wiffle Ball set?
>> I can imagine all sorts
>>of things which you cannot prove the non-existence of. It doesn't make them
>>real.
>
> We can prove they are real. There is a scientific process which will
> reawaken your Krishna consciousness.
MIKE: *gulp*!
TOM: Oh no...
> It's not something new imposed
> from outside, it's our original consciousness, it's within us all.
MIKE: It's within YOU, Scarecrow, and you, and you, and you!
> You
> just have to follow the process that's all. Just live with us,
MIKE: Is that legal in the state of Georgia?
> get up
> early in the morning,
TOM: [groans] Aw, ma, do I *have* to?
> chant the Hare Krishna mantra,
CROW: [singing] Mari-juana, Mari mari, juana juana, juana mari!
> read the Vedic
> scriptures,
TOM: It's Vedic Bareil from TV's Deep Space Nine!
MIKE: I cried along with Kira when he died.
TOM & CROW: Fan boy! Faaaaan boy!!
> use your energy to serve Krishna. Very soon you will see
> Krishna..
CROW: ... because you forgot to eat for ten straight days.
>
> There are real tangible changes in a person who takes to Krishna
> consciousness. One becomes less attached to material things and more
> attached to Krishna. He develops all good qualities. This is a
> scientific experiment.
TOM: ... because we say it is!
> Even if you don't come and live with us yourself
> you can study those who do and who seriously follow the process. You
> will see them becoming detached from intoxication, gambling, illicit
> sex
MIKE: Detached from illicit sex? But I thought they were living with you!
> and meat eating.
CROW: Isn't that the same thing as illicit sex?
MIKE: Now now, Crow.
> You will see them developing all good qualities...
> These are measurable, verifiable things.
MIKE: You mean you have a good-O-meter?
CROW: [singing] Goodometer, doot doo doo doo doo,
Goodometer, doot doo doo doo
>
>
>>>>If their predictions turn out to be false
>>>>upon measurement, then we reject them.
TOM: The measurements, that is.
>>>
>>> My "religious system" tells me I am not the material body, but rather
>>> "I" am a spiritual entity currently present within this body. My
>>> "religious system" describes consciousness as the symptom of the
>>> presence of the soul within the body therefore my "religious system"
>>> predicts that when "I" leave my body the consciousness will cease. This
>>> is a perfectly valid scientific description of the soul and
>>> consciousness.
TOM: Really? Who's your control group?
>>> It is actually the absolute truth. Even if you don't
>>> accept it as the absolute truth you have to accept it as a bona fide
>>> theory...
MIKE: Didn't Luct van Pelt have a bona fide theory that the world was made
of snow?
CROW: No, she only pretended that she did to trick Charlie Brown into
believing it.
>
>>Not a good one. It tells us absolutely nothing at all about how we'd expect
>>consciousness to behave, beyond saying that it stops when we die.
>
> It tells many things about how consciousness will act. Because it
> describes consciousness as separate from the body it makes it possible
> for the consciousness to leave the body, remain conscious outside the
> body, and come back again... something your electronic impulses theory
> could never account for.
CROW: So there!
TOM: Nyaah!
>
>>Now, if I were to describe consciousness as a symptom of the electrical
>>activity of the brain, and that when this activity stops, consciousness
>>ceases,
>
> But consciousness doesn't cease when the brain activity stops.. The
> body's consciousness ceases but the consciousness, the person goes on.
> Talk to somebody who has "died" on the operating table and come "back
> to life" again. They are conscious of the time while the body was
> unconscious. They, the soul, the consciousness, left the body and then
> came back again..
>
> If your theory is true prove it. After someone "dies" and the
> consciousness has left the body reestablish the consciousness... If
> consciousness is electrical activity in the brain just "electrolise" a
> dead brain and produce consciousness. Then you could talk... But you
> can't start it again unless the soul, the person comes back...
TOM: Mike, what the heck does this have to do with Creationism being
correct?
>
>>I have produced a scientific theory which says something about it. I
>>can measure electrical activity and the associated metabolic processes with
>>PET scans, EEGs, SQUIDS and a number of other techniques, and correlate these
>>with mental activity.
CROW: Except for the SQUIDS, I used them to make calimari.
>
> You know so much about it you should be able to introduce consciousness
> into a dead body. Why not?
MIKE: Because you're a snot-head?
TOM: Ooh, good one, Mike.
>
>>I can observe how individual neurons work, and how the
>>chemical transmitters work, and build up a picture of how the brain works,
>
> So make a dead one work!
TOM: Your theory doesn't explain everything, therefore your theory is
completely wrong, therefore my theory is completely right.
MIKE: Hey, don't knock it, it worked for Aristotle.
>
>>although the details are still sketchy here. The point is that such a theory
>>lives or dies by how it matches the observed world.
>
> But it doesn't match the observed world at all! There is now a whole
> body of evidence related to out-of-body experiences and past-life
> recollection. This evidence is very convincing and no scientific man
> could produce a realistic model of consciousness without considering
> it.
TOM: Two words, Swami: "James" "Randi".
> It has been shown beyond a dobut
TOM: Mmmm, I could go for a dobut right about now.
CROW: Yeah, maybe with some of those rainbow sprinkles on it.
TOM: No, I'd rather have a glazed dobut so I could dunk it in a cup of
coffee.
CROW: Except you couldn't dunk it 'cause your arms don't work!
TOM: D'OH!!
> that in many cases people have
> been able to recall things from their past lives and that many people
> have actually described events from a perspective outside their bodies
> [so many operating table cases, etc..]
MIKE: I wonder how many of these visions could just be dreams.
CROW: Or made up, to get attention.
TOM: Or maybe they're views through the eyes of SATAN!!!
>
> Your theory doesn't explain any of this, but it is completely
> explained and reasonable as soon as one understands the soul is
> different from the body and can travel outside the body.
>
> Your idea of consciousness stemming from the electrical impulses in the
> brain is something like looking around in a television set to try and
> find the source of the pictures. There is lots of complex circuitry and
> electrical impulses there... You could hypothesize these impulses
> caused the pictures...
TOM: Which they do.
> But the pictures are coming from a television
> studio far, far away...
TOM: THAT'S funny, I thought they were only encoded onto a CARRIER WAVE
far far away!
MIKE: Is Minneapolis far far away enough of a television studio?
CROW: It is if you're not tuned to KTMA!
MIKE: What's KTMA?
CROW: Uh, before your time. I'll explain later.
>
>
>>In order to have a scientific alternative, you have to make testable
>>predictions.
>
> I have now described two such procedures. [The symptoms of
> consciousness and the real, tangible changes to devotees after they
> take to the scientific process of Krishna consciousness]
TOM: ... thereby proving that the devotees have a separate body and soul,
and, uh, that pigs can fly.
>
>
>>>>Most religious thinkers have learnt to
>>>>avoid that trap by being so mealy mouthed about how the universe began that
>>>>nobody could accuse them of saying anything at all beyond "God created it", a
>>>>singularly meaningless phrase, which begs any number of questions.
CROW: Oh, PLEASE, mister question, I'm down on my knees begging you here!
>
>>> We can answer all the questions as to how God created it completely
>>> scientifically and to your satisfaction. I am prepared to do this if
>>> you are prepared to listen...
TOM: You see, God is a trickster, and put the dinosaur bones in the Earth
to test the faithful.
>
>>Go ahead, but you must be prepared to produce proper evidence, rather than
>>your usual brand of proof by assertion. I am not prepared to listen to the
>>unsupported words of a man, no matter how holy.
>
> I will do this in another post.. It is important to first establish
> there is a soul and that the symptom of the soul is consciousness..
MIKE: Just take my word for it that I'm right and you're wrong.
>
>>>>So now who's being absolutist?
CROW: Vodka?
>
>>> There are absolutes... (I can also support this statement with
>>> sufficient scientific details as to how God created the universe..)
TOM: Just as soon as I give you scientific details as to how the world is
flat and the moon is made out of Green Cheese.
MIKE: Oh, the moon is NOT made out of Green Cheese.
CROW: Yeah, Tom, everyone knows it's made out of Swiss.
>>> If
>>> I state an absolute truth as absolute that's one thing but if I become
>>> so attached to a shaky theory that I teach it as a fact in schools
>>> that's another...
>
>>I see, so you are the sole guardian of the absolute truth? This is hybris of
>>spectacular proportions!
CROW: You mean, like Orson Welles or Peter Ustinov?
TOM: Or Roseanne?
MIKE: I grew some hybris corn in my back yard once. It didn't leave any
seeds or anything.
>
> No it's available to everyone. You just have to find the right
> authority that's all.
MIKE: And, uh, that authority wouldn't happen to be you, would it?
>
> tad viddhi pranipatena
> pariprasnena sevaya
> upadeksyanti te jnanam
> jnaninas tatt va-darsinah
TOM: [singing] En la mondon venis nova sento, / Tra la mondo iras forta voko!
CROW: Quis custodet ipsos custodes?
MIKE: Que sera, sera.
TOM: Je ne sais quoi.
CROW: Ancay ouyay eakspay igpay atinlay?
>
> "Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master.
> Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him.
TOM: And lick his boots if you have to.
> The
> self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have
> seen the truth." (Bhagavad-gita 4.34)
CROW: Unlike unenlightened mortal scum such as yourself.
>
>
>
> Chant Hare Krishna and be Happy!
CROW: \
TOM: > Or else!
MIKE: /
>
>
>
>Madhudvisah dasa Swami
>
> ___________________________________________
> (she...@peg.apc.org) | |
>http://www.peg.apc/~shelter | S H E L T E R I N T E R N A T I O N A L |
> |___________________________________________|
TOM: [singing] Gimmie shelterrrr!!!!!
MIKE: [cupping his hands around his mouth like a megaphone] A Soviet air
attack is imminent! Please get to your shelters!
>
> CHANT HARE KRISHNA AND BE HAPPY!
>
>Quotes from His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (c) BBT
CROW: His divine grace the D.C. Swami was not available for comment.
TOM: Hey, BBT! That's us!
MIKE: [whispering] No, no, we're BBI.
>
>
>
>
CROW: Ah, those last four lines demonstrate the true contents of Mister
Swami's brain.
MIKE: Come on, you two, let's get out of here.
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vault door
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TOM: You know, what truly amazes me about Mud da Swami is that he's
convinced his "scientific" model of consciousness does the best
job of explaining consciousness because it takes near-death and
out-of-body experiences into account.
MIKE: Well, many people *have* reported seeing things from points outside
their own bodies.
TOM: Exactly! They're SEEING things. Not "sensing" things or "smelling"
things, but SEEING specifically. With no eyeballs attached to their
wandering consciousness!
MIKE: [scratching his head] Now that you mention it, it does seem rather
strange that out-of-body experiences match what you'd expect to
get from your own senses -- especially considering that if you poke
somebody's eyes out, they aren't able to see anymore, so the body's
physical eyeballs are kinda necessary.
CROW: Hey, yeah -- what kind of out-of-body experiences do people who've
been blind all their lives have?
MIKE: Maybe they hear things from points outside their own bodies. But
you'd only be able to find out by finding a blind person who'd had
an out-of-body experience.
TOM: Or by inducing an out-of-body experience in a blind person -- say, by
stopping his heart for a minute or two?
MIKE: Uh oh, that's sounds dangerously close to the kind of experiment
Dr. Forrester might want to try.
TOM: What do you think, sir?
[Deep 13]
DR. F: [smugly] Actually, I thought up just such an experiment last week,
while reviewing this Usenet post for awfulness content. However,
you did give me ONE good idea.
[S of L]
CROW: Really?
[Deep 13]
DR. F: Yes. I particularly like the "poke somebody's eyes out" suggestion.
Why bother searching around for a blind person when I can MAKE one
in a matter of seconds!
[S of L]
MIKE: That is REALLY sick and twisted!
[Deep 13]
DR. F: Flattery will get you nowhere. Now, all I need to do is find an
unwitting subject to get his eyes poked out and his heart stopped.
Oh Frank! Frank! ... Frank? Aw, never mind, I'll get the
button myself.
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POHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
HEAD WRITER: rog...@cisco.com
WRITER'S OTHER ADDRESS: tra...@netcom.com
BASED ON MATERIAL PRODUCED BY: she...@peg.apc.org (Madhudvisah dasa Swami)
(used without permission)
MY WHITE GODDESS BY: Kevin Murphy and the Kevins
AVE MARIA SET TO MUSIC BY: Franz Schubert
MYSTERY SCIENCE THEATER 3000 PRODUCED BY: Best Brains, Inc.
COPYRIGHT (C) 1995 BY SOMEONE WITH WAY TOO MUCH TIME ON HIS HANDS.
WRITTEN IN SHADOWRAMA.
KEEP CIRCULATING THE FTP SITES.
> So make a dead one work!
--
Roger M. Wilcox rog...@cisco.com (a.k.a. tra...@best.com (Jeff Boeing))
------------------- I'm not flying fast, just orbiting low. -----------------
MSTie #38188 | Dvorak keyboard - Esperanto - Ross Perot - ProLog - Amiga 2000
| Do I follow lost causes, or what?
John Thompson
John
John Thompson ( ster...@scsn.net )
-------------------------------------------------
This tag line conTains exactly threee errors.
-------------------------------------------------
Christian Feuerstein
: You did, of course, send a copy to the unwitting co-authors?
: John
: John Thompson ( ster...@scsn.net )
REPOST, please o please o please! I can't believe I missed this!
: -------------------------------------------------
: This tag line conTains exactly threee errors.
: -------------------------------------------------
--
Chr...@college.antioch.edu Christian Feuerstein
"Don't mess with the Messiah!" Irish Jewish female with wacko name
Roger M. Wilcox
>: You did, of course, send a copy to the unwitting co-authors?
Well, I did send one to K...@mfs1.ballarat.edu.au (Kevin Moore), but I was
a little squeamish about sending one to the Swami character. What with
Mike and the Bots repeatedly pointing out what a goofball he was being,
and all.
Ailsa Murphy
Roger M. Wilcox <rog...@cisco.com> wrote:
>>John Thompson (ster...@scsn.net) wrote:
>>: You did, of course, send a copy to the unwitting co-authors?
>
>Well, I did send one to K...@mfs1.ballarat.edu.au (Kevin Moore), but I was
>a little squeamish about sending one to the Swami character. What with
>Mike and the Bots repeatedly pointing out what a goofball he was being,
>and all.
>
with this newsgroup for a while, and missed that post.
Kate (The Local Faerie) Cunningham
--
Promises made to a distant friend an...@spdcc.com
Truth should be known it can only bend is
To a tune of its own ailsa or kate
And you'll never hear that voice again. - "Shadows Are on Your Side"
Tom Smith
Once again, I'm coming in at the tail end, or else some of this stuff just
isn't getting to my 'Net provider. And I think this one I <really> want.
Is there an archive for MSTied articles? Alternatively, could someone
please e-mail me this "Creationism is Correct?" MSTie at toms...@izzy.net?
Many thanks, and I hope I'm not making too much trouble here.
--------------------------
Tom Smith
The World's Fastest Filker
T.SMI...@genie.geis.com
toms...@izzy.net
--------------------------
Soundwave [Chad Gould]
: Is there an archive for MSTied articles? Alternatively, could someone
: please e-mail me this "Creationism is Correct?" MSTie at toms...@izzy.net?
Oy. Try ftping to clover.cleaf.com (/pub/mst3k), ftp.ee.pdx.edu
(/pub/mst3k), ftp.umd.umich.edu (/pub/people/nhughes/mists). And watch
out for the FAQ- coming soon to this newsgroup.
: Many thanks, and I hope I'm not making too much trouble here.
--
Chad Gould aka Soundwave (not Bill Nye) |--X5/D50/DX27/1202/GUS SAMPLE!--|
internet: cgo...@gate.net (Hell Inc.) |-----"MOVE YOUR CAR!!!!!!!"-----|
Have you hugged your llama today? |Make Happy the Harmonica Happy!!|
http://www.webcom.com/~cgould/ - MST3K, MIDI, Pinball, Emusic, etc...
Now also available in chewy mint! kgo...@soleil.acomp.usf.edu
Roger M. Wilcox
unequivocably that I, too, can waste bandwidth as well as the rest of 'em,
I bring you the re-posting of this MSTing for those of you who MST it (ha ha).
Note: I posted this back in the Good Old Days (i.e. last month) when I was
still the lowly rog...@cisco.com, and not the toweringly majestic
tra...@best.com that I am today.
---------------CUT HERE (aiiiiiiiigh!)---------------------------------------
[S of L]
[Deep 13]
> read the Vedic
> scriptures,
> and meat eating.
TOM: Which they do.
CROW: Vodka?
>
>
>
>
[Deep 13]
[S of L]
CROW: Really?
[Deep 13]
[S of L]
[Deep 13]
HEAD WRITER: rog...@cisco.com
WRITER'S OTHER ADDRESS: tra...@best.com
BASED ON MATERIAL PRODUCED BY: she...@peg.apc.org (Madhudvisah dasa Swami)
(used without permission)
MY WHITE GODDESS BY: Kevin Murphy and the Kevins
AVE MARIA SET TO MUSIC BY: Franz Schubert
MYSTERY SCIENCE THEATER 3000 PRODUCED BY: Best Brains, Inc.
COPYRIGHT (C) 1995 BY SOMEONE WITH WAY TOO MUCH TIME ON HIS HANDS.
WRITTEN IN SHADOWRAMA.
KEEP CIRCULATING THE FTP SITES.
> So make a dead one work!
--
tra...@best.com (Jeff Boeing) - FORMERLY - rog...@cisco.com (Roger M. Wilcox)
----------------- I'm not flying fast, just orbiting low ---------------------
MSTie #38808 | "I'm trying to remember -- there were an awful lot of
| casualties that day." -- Kup, _The Transformers: The Movie_