The Time Dilation phenomena on various objects
Hunter
There has been a lot of talk of what is the nature of the time dilation
phenomena between the island and the ship, the Kahana. Indeed the island
could be with in it or at least surrounded by it on all sides. What is
known that objects take far longer than they should to cross a certain
distance from the island to a point off shore, in this case a freighter.
It was at the time of the launch of Dan's missile about 37.8nm off shore
of Craphole Island but it takes far to long to get from the island to the
freighter and from the freighter to the island. Several things have past
through it to get a feel of what is happening. This doesn't discribe why
and how it is happening, but what the effects are. Lets start with the
first, most objective vehicle traveling through it.
My touch stone data is the 20 second count down from the ship after the
missile launched. I derived that from the countdown Regina, the woman on
the ship that Dan was talking to, started when the rocket was traveling
from the ship to the island. She was counting down from in 5km increments
every two seconds. That means that the rocket was moving at 2.5kilometers
per second. From here I will translate into nautical miles:
Base conversion measurements:
1 kilometer=3,280feet
1 nautical miles equals 6,076 feet
The rocket was moving at approximately 2.5 kilometers a second, which is
8,200ft/s, which in turn is 1.35 nautical miles per second (nmps) since
8,200ft/6,076ft=1.35.
Now Regina vocally counted down for 20 seconds total, until the moment
the missile should had hit, so from the time she started the count to
when the missile should had landed the rocket traveled 27nm (20sX1.35nm).
However, eight (8) seconds had previously elapsed before she started with
the vocal count down. That means the rocket had traveled 10.8nm
(8sX1.35nm) in that previous time. So 27nm+10.8nm=37.8nm, which is the
total distance-or should had been the total distance-the missile
traveled, which in turns mean that the ship was approximately 37.8nm from
the island. This range would later be confirmed in the episode "The
Constant" when it was mentioned by Juliet that the freighter was about 40
miles away from the island:
From "The Constant" (S4XE5):
JULIET (to Charlotte and Dan about the late helicopter): "You're boat's
forty miles off the coast, it should have taken them what, twenty minutes
to get there? So why aren't you worried?"
Incidently, the speed of the rocket as noted before was 1.35nm/second,
which in turn is 81nm per minute, which in turn is 4,860nm per hour.
However, a funny thing happened to the missile on the way to the island.
It took 31 minutes to get there, which was the out of sync time a
chronometer in the rocket was with a chronometer that Daniel had which
read 02:45:3; the missile clock showing 31 minutes more elapsed time
reading 3:16:23. Now to break it down further 31x60seconds is 1,860
seconds 1,860/28 seconds=66.43. That means it took the missile 66.43
times longer than it should had. This also means, as noted above, it was
moving at 81nm/min. That means it "traveled" a further-subjectively-
2,511nm than it should. Strange.
Now we get to what happened to the helicopter. The helicopter was
expected to take only 20minutes to make the trip from the island to the
freighter. As stated by the freighter was about 40miles off shore. to
keep things consistent I will use the previously derived 37.8nm figure.
The helicopter was expected to cross that 37.8nm in approximately
20minutes (again to keep things consistent we will assume exactly 20
minutes) 20 minutes of course is 1/3 of an hour. This means the
helicopter was traveling at (3X37.8nm/hr) or 113.4nm/hr.
However, a funny thing happened to the helicopter. According to Sayid
shortly after they landed on the ship it was the "middle of the day"
despite them having left at dusk, near sunset. Jack on the island said
they hadn't heard from Sayid or Desmond for a day:
From "The Constant" (S4XE5)
JACK (to Charlotte and Dan): "Alright. They took off a day ago. Why
haven't we heard from them?"
The same thing that happened to the missile happened to the helicopter.
From the Island and freighter prospective Desmond, Sayid and Frank got
lost in time taking far longer to get from point a to b than it should
had. In the case of the missile 31 minutes, in the case of the chopper
approximately a full day. On the ship's calender it was December 24, 2004
a day behind at least than the time on the island From these two
incidents the length of the delay is directly related to the speed the
object was going through the phenomena. The missile was moving at
4,860nmph; the chopper 113.4nm/hr. Now to reiterate. Sayid said they
landed on the ship in the middle of the day. Sayid said this shortly
after he landed on the freighter with Frank and a freaked out Desmond:
"The Constant":
From "The Constant" (S4XE5)
SAYID (To Frank): "Then perhaps you'll share how we took off at dusk and
landed in the middle of the day."
He doesn't realize it yet but it is the middle of the day "yesterday"
from his POV. December 24, 2004 on the freighter. Indeed, he won't know
it is the 24th until he sees the ship's calendar (it seemed a little
bright to be called dusk on the island but that is what Sayid said).
One thing I noticed about the flight time of the rocket. It, as noted
should had taken 28 seconds to reach the island. However, it took 31
minutes. 31 minutes is 1,860 seconds; 1,860/28=66.43. It took 66.43 times
longer than it should to get there from the Island/ship POV.
If I apply this 66.43 times figure to the Island POV of how long the
helicopter took to get to the freighter I believe they went back 22 hours
in time! 66.43X20minutes=1,328.6 minutes, which is 22 hours 8 minutes and
36 seconds. Let's round it off to 22 hours. That would explain they
taking off at dusk-near sunset-and getting to the freighter in the
"middle of the day." Lets say it is about 8pm or so on the island which
would be dusk at the time they took off-remember they are in the southern
hemisphere near Australia so it is summer and the days are at there
longest in late December (in fact the winter solstice was about three
days ago island time, two days ago freighter/world time). Go back 22hrs.
That would make it 6pm in the afternoon on the freighter, still bright
sunshine at that time of the year, the *previous* afternoon, "the middle
of the day". This will also line up with Jack saying they were gone for a
day. Strange.
Oh and by the way if the Chopper took 22.1433 hours (22hrs 8min 36sec) to
get to the freighter from the Island/freighter POV, that means the
helicopter traveled an apparent distance of-guess what? 2,511nm, the
same travel distance as the rocket, but moving only at 113.4mph which
would had to be moving to get to the Kahana in 20mins while the ship was
40 miles off shore. So the elapsed time to get from point a to b through
the phenomena is proportional the speed it travels which mean there is a
constant distance! The phenomena, from the POV of the island and the
outside world including the freighter is-again subjectively-2,511nm wide.
Some people has wondered why there is not time delay between the island
and the ship like there was with the chopper and the rocket. This
explains why there is still instant radio communication. Light-which is
what radio waves are, just invisible to our eyes-move at 186,000 miles
per second. Now the ship is 37.8nm off shore the radio transmission
should take 1/(186,000miles/37.8nm)= 1/4921st of a second, a very tiny
amount of time that it should get from the ship to the island or vice
versa. Now have it go through the phenomena:
1/(186,000/2,511nm)=1/74th of a second. That mean it takes light ie radio
waves 1/89.71th of a second to cover that distance instead of 1/5959.6 of
second. Who is going to notice the difference the time lag between
1/4921st and 1/74th of a second even if the signal takes around 66.43
times longer to get to the island and to get back from it to the ship
than it should?
Now I get to what I admit is the most speculative aspect of my argument:
Micheal and Walt's boat. The speed of Micheal's boat was not explicitly
stated nor it can be deduced like we did with the missile, helicopter and
the speed of light, but let's say it was 20mph, a reasonable speed for a
boat of that size I think. According to the rocket travel time-the only
example of the near exact elapsed time of travel between the ship and the
island provided by Regina's countdown-the phenomena is a Island/ship POV
2,511 wide as noted before. 2,511/20mph is 125.55 hours travel time
125.55 hours equals 5 days, 5 minutes and 33 seconds, again assuming a 20
mph constant speed that is how long it took Micheal and Walt to traverse
the phenomena from the Island/outside world POV to the 37.8nm radius from
the island the freighter is now. Expressed another way:
66.43X2hrs=132.86hrs. 132.86hrs/24hrs=5.36 Days.
Of course, from their POV it took only two hours to move that 40 odd
miles again assuming a 20mph constant speed-and they didn't get lost in
the phenomena, especially in the thunderhead, which I have a feeling that
they did given Walt being tall and all. Further, just like on the chopper
and rocket Micheal and Walt would not perceive any time lost on the
journey anymore than Sayid did unless to observe the sun position in the
sky.
Of course this also assumes that the phenomena is of uniform distance
from the island at all points, since Micheal's boat left the island from
a different place than the where the chopper left and the rocket landed,
hence the different course bearing that Ben sent him on as oppose to the
course Frank flew his chopper with.
Now all of this is subject to adjustment as more data is gathered, but
given what we know now I think these figures show what is happening when
object try to move through the phenomena. However, as I said before, it
doesn't explain how or why. That is for a later time. I caution though:
Don't look for a theory that is totally in sync with accepted scientific
facts they, the writers and producers, are trying to tell a story. The
phenomena is similar to the real life Theory (and fact) of relativity in
which the closer to the speed of light you go the difference between the
internal spaceship time and the time outside of the ship differs.
However, it is obvious that that is not EXACTLY what is going on here
since nothing is moving anywhere close to the speed of light, except of
course the radio transmissions. Look for something that sounds plausible
like a mini black hole or wormhole, something based on science but not
totally a scientific explaination that you can find in science books or
on the Science Channel. :-)
--
----->Hunter
"No man in the wrong can stand up against
a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'."
-----William J. McDonald
Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907
Johnn...@webtv.net
>
>One thing I noticed about the flight time of the
> rocket. It, as noted should had taken 28
> seconds to reach the island. However, it took
> 31 minutes.
>
seconds to the beacon..
From the islands perspective, it took 2 hr. 45 min. to arrive. ...But
from the payloads perspective, it took 3 hr. 16 min. to make the trip.
..Sorry.. The rest of your post has me bogged down with figures flying
at me from every direction. ...I really can't see the producers getting
that technical. ...Jon
Hunter
buffh...@my-deja.com says...
>
>
> 1/(186,000/2,511nm)=1/74th of a second. That mean it takes light ie radio
> waves 1/89.71th of a second to cover that distance instead of 1/5959.6 of
> second. Who is going to notice the difference the time lag between
> 1/4921st and 1/74th of a second even if the signal takes around 66.43
> times longer to get to the island and to get back from it to the ship
> than it should?
----
There are bad edits of mine there. The above paragraph should read:
"1/(186,000/2,511nm)=1/74th of a second. That mean it takes light ie
radio waves 1/74th of a second to cover that distance instead of
1/4921st of second. Who is going to notice the difference the time lag
between 1/4921st and 1/74th of a second even if the signal takes around
66.43 times longer to get to the island or to get back from it to the
ship than it should?"
Sorry.
TNKev
I can't see them getting that technical either,and they have an out if
there were any discrepancy...........is there a time delay for radio
transmissions? because that would skew the figures.
Hunter
I guess you didn't read my post directly, I addressed that. No, there
would not be a "noticable" time delay concerning radio transmissions.
Yes, there is an effect on it but the speed of light is too fast for
anyone to notice the delay Which is why I included the apparent 2,511nm
distances of that the missile and the helicopter seemed to traveled
during the time they were "missing" and why the speed of the two craft is
porpotional to the time they were missing. The radio waves travel only
2,511nm if they are affected by the phenomena at all, so there will be no
noticiable effect.
TNKev
> In article <frbo6v$lt3$1...@news.datemas.de>, TNKe...@gmail.com says...
>> Johnn...@webtv.net wrote:
>>> buffh...@my-deja.com (Hunter) wrote:
>>>> One thing I noticed about the flight time of the
>>>> rocket. It, as noted should had taken 28
>>>> seconds to reach the island. However, it took
>>>> 31 minutes.
>>>>
>>> The way I understand it... From the ship's perspective it took 28
>>> seconds to the beacon..
>>>
>>> From the islands perspective, it took 2 hr. 45 min. to arrive. ...But
>>> from the payloads perspective, it took 3 hr. 16 min. to make the trip.
>>>
>>> ..Sorry.. The rest of your post has me bogged down with figures flying
>>> at me from every direction. ...I really can't see the producers getting
>>> that technical. ...Jon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> I can't see them getting that technical either,and they have an out if
>> there were any discrepancy...........is there a time delay for radio
>> transmissions? because that would skew the figures.
> ---
> I guess you didn't read my post directly,
No I didn't <hangs head> sorry.
> I addressed that. No, there
> would not be a "noticable" time delay concerning radio transmissions.
> Yes, there is an effect on it but the speed of light is too fast for
> anyone to notice the delay Which is why I included the apparent 2,511nm
> distances of that the missile and the helicopter seemed to traveled
> during the time they were "missing" and why the speed of the two craft is
> porpotional to the time they were missing. The radio waves travel only
> 2,511nm if they are affected by the phenomena at all, so there will be no
> noticiable effect.
I see,so then a hitch or loop in time would not be happening or the
radio transmissions would have the same time laps as the rocket did.
Tim Witort
news:MPG.224292bcb...@news.optonline.net:
[snip]
> He doesn't realize it yet but it is the middle of the day "yesterday"
> from his POV. December 24, 2004 on the freighter. Indeed, he won't know
> it is the 24th until he sees the ship's calendar (it seemed a little
> bright to be called dusk on the island but that is what Sayid said).
Here's where you make a big assumption. You are assuming you
know the exact date on the island when the helicopter took
off (we may well know this date). Then you are assuming
that the calendar on the wall and the X's on the calendar
are telling you the correct date on the ship.
These assumptions have them on the ship the day before
they left. Yet radio transmissions are only minutely
(if at all) affected by this phenomena. So when they
call the island, by your reasoning, they should have
been talking with Jack the day *before* they left.
Ooops. That doesn't work, does it?
So obviously they arrived on the ship about a day
*after* they left the island, but only perceived
20-30 minutes of time passing in flight. Your
evaluation of what the dates are on the ship and
on the island are not correct.
-- TRW
_______________________________________
t i m . w i t o r t
_______________________________________
Hunter
Johnn...@webtv.net says...
> buffh...@my-deja.com (Hunter) wrote:
> >
> >One thing I noticed about the flight time of the
> > rocket. It, as noted should had taken 28
> > seconds to reach the island. However, it took
> > 31 minutes.
> >
> The way I understand it... From the ship's perspective it took 28
> seconds to the beacon..
It should had took 28 seconds.
>
> From the islands perspective, it took 2 hr. 45 min. to arrive. ...But
> from the payloads perspective, it took 3 hr. 16 min. to make the trip.
You are misinterpreting the clocks. It is a 31 minute difference between
them. Watch the scene in "The Constant" in which the rocket lands Dan
compares the clock he had and the one that was in the missile. The two
clocks were in sync before the missile was launched. When the missile
finally landed, instead of showing exactly the same time, there is a 31
minute difference. Dan says so himself out loud. Listen to what he says
again.
> ..Sorry.. The rest of your post has me bogged down with figures flying
> at me from every direction. ...I really can't see the producers getting
> that technical. ...Jon
Again, see above. Watch the scene again. it is the differance in
time between the watches. They were 31 minutes out of sync. The same with
the near full day difference in time between when the helicopter should
had landed and when it landed. I just used the known time mesure ments,
particularly of the travel time of the rocket, both actual and what it
supposed to have been and Regina's count down.
Besides, the episode is known for its intricacies
OneKeyShortOf88
>
> read more »
After reading this and your edit - I find this a very very plausible
explination - the how? That may be for another day - but the math
makes sense - and I (as opposed to some others here in this thread)
certainly believe the producers are going to take the time to do the
math. Goodness knows they've got the budget - next time you give a
class at MIT please let me know. :)
Johnn...@webtv.net
>
>You are misinterpreting the clocks. It is a 31
> minute difference between them. Watch the
> scene in "The Constant" in which the rocket
> lands Dan compares the clock he had and the
> one that was in the missile. The two clocks
> were in sync before the missile was launched.
> When the missile finally landed, instead of
> showing exactly the same time, there is a 31
> minute difference. Dan says so himself out
> loud. Listen to what he says again.
>
difference in the timing. ...But you're not taking into consideration
that although from the ships perspective, the payload only took 28
seconds to arrive at the beacon, it actually took 2 3/4 hours, island
time, to traverse the 40 miles, and 3 1/4 hours, from the perspective of
the payload. ...Jon
Fred Ellis
Those time devices were not stopwatches showing elaped time, but were
clocks that showed the current time. The clock that Daniel had showed
the current time which Daniel set with his watch. The clock in the
rocket was set with the same current time. But when it arrive that
clock was off by 31 minutes.
Fred Ellis
--
Who do you serve. . . . And who do you trust?
(To e-mail me, remove the X from my address)
Johnn...@webtv.net
>
>Those time devices were not stopwatches
> showing elaped time, but were clocks that
> showed the current time. The clock that
> Daniel had showed the current time which
> Daniel set with his watch. The clock in the
> rocket was set with the same current time.
> But when it arrive that clock was off by 31
> minutes.
>
to me, Juliet taking the 2 hours to go find Desmond, confirmed that the
timer was a stop watch, and that the payload was in the air for the 2
3/4 hours. ...Jon
Hunter
Johnn...@webtv.net says...
Both clocks were previously syncronized with each other. When the missile
landed the chronometer Dab had showed 2:45 pm. The clock in the missle
showed 3:16pm. The missile clock was 31 minutes fast, showing it took 31
minutes longer to arrive than it should had. Again I point to what Dan
said:
From "The Economist" (S4XE3):
DANIEL turns suddenly, looking at the sky. A high-pitched whistling is
heard. DANIEL looks happy and relieved.]
DANIEL: Oh. It s the payload! (points) It s finally here.
[An object leaving a contrail is seen in the sky, shooting towards the
ground. It lands in the clearing, yards from the helicopter, DANIEL,
FRANK, and JACK. DANIEL runs towards it, while FRANK looks unimpressed
and JACK looks shocked. DANIEL pulls the object out of the ground and
unscrews it into two halves. JACK approaches him.]
JACK: What is that?
DANIEL: It s a rocket.
[DANIEL removes a small object from the rocket, standing up. As it beeps,
he looks at it, then at his watch. JACK looks confused, FRANK amused.]
DANIEL: Oh, no, no.
[DANIEL rushes over to the tripod. He takes a timepiece off of it, the
time on which reads 02:45:03 and counting. The object from the rocket
is another timepiece, which reads 03:16:22 and counting.]
DANIEL: (to himself) Thirty-one minutes.
[JACK and FRANK approach.]
DANIEL: Oh, no. This is not good.
http://lostcommunity.co.uk/forums/season-4-transcripts/6686-4-03-
economist-transcript.html
(Cut and paste link into a browser's adress line if it doesn't work by
clicking on it directly.
He is obviously concerned by the 31 minutes.
Hunter
tim_w...@hotmail.com says...
Well let's say you are right, that it they arrived on the ship in the
future. The same 'problem" arises. The ship is in the future and the
island is in the past. How do they have two way communication? You just
flipped the problem.
At anyrate the ship and the rest of the world is not in the future but in
the past and the island is in the future relative to the rest of the
world. The island is surrounded by the phenomena, isolating it from the
rest of the world. Causation is not violated in this case because the
radio signal, as with everything else, flows through the phenomena, like
a conduit. The island is on a different time plane than the rest of the
world. It's time is not connected to the world's time so in reality it is
not as if someone was traveling to the past of the world in which
causation would be violated and telling someone of a call they made
which of course they hadn't made yet.
Because of this isolation from world time, the phenomena acts as a
conduit between the island time a day or so in the future and the rest of
the world a day in the past. The future is communicating with the past
and visa versa, just like Desmond's time flashbacks (and forwards from
the POV of his 1996 self) is communication between the future and the
past cased by the phenomena. The difference is between the ship and the
island it is only in fractions of a second by radio compared to Desmond's
years. So even though the island is in the future direct comunication is
possible because the island is an island in more ways than one. The
signal goes out from the ship on say December 24, it hits the phenomena
and it is carried somehow into Deember 25, suffering a delay in time
getting there in the meantime. Similarly, when a transmission is made
from Island December 25, it reaches through the conduit to the ship again
with a delay. Again the delay isn't noticiable like in the case of the
helicopter and the missile because of light's great speed.
At anyrate, don't try to fit this phenomena into real science, I don't
think it is ment to be. Nore is some other aspects and phenomena on the
show. After all, does anyone have a scientific explaination of how the
smoke monster exist? I am sure they will hav a qusi scientific
explaination, but I doubt it will fit known science exactly.
mpc
Maybe it moves backwards and forwards in time, like a pendulum.
The freighter is at the event horizon of the Island.
When Regina launched the rocket, she was also tracking it and
indicated touchdown ... well at least 5 meters from touchdown.
The rocket reached the Island 31 minutes later, which would place it
in Freighter Time, the past. If Daniel were to call Regina and say the
rocket landed, Regina would say that that was like a half-hour ago,
Faraday... catch-up!
To the Island, the freighter is in the future. An event (rocket
impact) on the island happened to the freighter about 31 minutes ago.
I think the Hatch explosion started something. Maybe the Hatch was an
anchor to keep the Island in a static state of flux. I say that
because Penny mentioned it was 3 years since last contact, and to
Desmond it was 3 years when he crashed onto the island and started
pushing the button. Time was constant. Now it is not.
Hunter
There is a hitch in time, the island is on a different time plane than
the rest of the world, I am saying that the phenomena is acting as a
conduit between the island's time, about a day in the future and the time
of the rest of the world. One of the effects on objects and light is a
delay as I layed out. 31 minutes for the rocket, a day for the
helicopter. As I said the phenomena does have a effect on the radio trans
mission, but because of light's tremendous speed, the delay is not
noticiable enough for anyone to notice. You have to think of the island
in terms of distance. The phenomena makes travel much longer than it
should take as an object goes too and fro island time, that is why I
calculated the apparent distance the helicopter and the missile traveled
with in the given time they were "missing" and their airspeed. In both
cases they traveled 2,511nm more than they should had given the speed
they were going and the time missing. 2,511nm is nothing to light, but it
is still greater than the 37.8nm between the ship and the island. In
anycase it is only fractions of a second difference. Light takes 1/4921
seconds to travel 37.8nm normally, but as much as 1/74th of a second
*through* the phenomena, but you are not going to notice the difference
between 1/74th of a second and 1/4921 of a second to the human ear. On
the other hand, the delay a missile moving at a pokey 4,860nmph and a
positively creeping 113mph helicopter and I presume a barely moving
(relatively speaking, no pun intended) 20mph boat have are very
noticiable to people.
You have to think of the phenomena having a effect on distance as well as
time, since they are related. However, people traveling through it
doesn't notice much of a time lag as Sayid was surprised when he landed
on the ship in "the middle of the day" after taking off from the island
"at dusk" despite the flight taking about the right time it should had
from his POV.
Again, the phenomena seen on "Lost" doesn't exactly match real life
science and probably isn't meant to. It is something *like* Einstein time
dilation, but it isn't, so don't make the mistake of trying to fit it
into that rubrick.
Johnn...@webtv.net
>
>Both clocks were previously syncronized with
> each other. When the missile landed the
> chronometer Dab had showed 2:45 pm. The
> clock in the missle showed 3:16pm. The
> missile clock was 31 minutes fast, showing it
> took 31 minutes longer to arrive than it should
> had.
>
3/4 hr. to reach the island (on island time), then in contrast to the
ship's perspective, the time difference should be 2 3/4 hr. minus 28
seconds.
IE: the pay load took 28 seconds to reach the beacon -- off island
perspective... And 2 3/4 hr. minus 28 seconds, island persepective.
..Jon
Hunter
remys...@yahoo.com
the ship, would we be dealing with trying to figure the math from each
chronometer crossing the phenomena?
Johnn...@webtv.net
>
>----
>
>Exactly.
>
>--
>
I think you're jumping to conclusions, without enough information.
As someone else pointed out, these devices were most likely timers, as
they didn't have any digital indication on them to signify AM or PM, and
they were obviously operating in a 12 hour format.
Further, if they were clocks, then you have to take into consideration
that when Dan arrived, his clock would have jumped ahead too. Further...
And why would he need a clock, when he could just as easily use his
watch.
If the 31 minutes is involved, and the devices were clocks, then I think
the time difference more likely would have something to do with the
length of time that Dan had been on the island.
Further... Even if that payload arrived at 80mph (40 miles in 30 min)...
He wouldn't be able to reach down at his feet and simply pick it up.
.There would have been a humongous crater created from its impact.
..Jon
mpc
> As someone else pointed out, these devices were most likely timers, as
> they didn't have any digital indication on them to signify AM or PM, and
> they were obviously operating in a 12 hour format.
When they (they being scientists) measured the effect of time shift,
using the Concord, they take two identical atomic clocks,... same time
calibrated to thousandths of a second and keep one on the ground and
fly one on the Concord. They fly, or rather flew, the Concord East or
West and measure the difference via the Atomic clocks (BTW.. there is
a difference, depending on the direction of the flight).
The clocks are at the current time. If the flight leaves at 2:00 pm
GMT time, that's the time it shows... not 00:00:00.
That is how that works. Clocks set at the same time. The are not
timers.
Hunter
Johnn...@webtv.net says...
> buffh...@my-deja.com (Hunter) wrote:
> >
> >----
> >
> >Exactly.
> >
> >--
> >
> I think you're jumping to conclusions, without enough information.
>
> As someone else pointed out, these devices were most likely timers, as
> they didn't have any digital indication on them to signify AM or PM, and
> they were obviously operating in a 12 hour format.
Actually now that I think about it I believe you are right. They were
timers and not clocks.
> Further, if they were clocks, then you have to take into consideration
> that when Dan arrived, his clock would have jumped ahead too. Further...
> And why would he need a clock, when he could just as easily use his
> watch.
Remember that transmitter/reciever like device he set up? He did it to
get a fix on the ship and a signal from the ship. The timer was connected
to that device, perhaps wirelessly. The timer syncronized itself with the
time on the ship from perhaps a similar on the Kahana. That is possible
because as I said in my calculations, the radio waves, which is light,
moves so fast that from a human point of view the time lag caused by the
phenomena is negliable. That is why Dan didn't say anything about the
clock that was on the device being about a day out of whack despite
traveling through the phenomena to get to the island just like Sayid was
a day out of what when he traveled through the phenomena. Anyway the
timer was able to syncronize itsel, much like some timers and clocks can
connect with an atomic clock to get the real time on the ship and that is
why there was no time jump, at least no noticable one. Dan's watch on
his wrist on the otherhand is going to be different. We saw him look at
it but we didn't see the face of the watch and what he saw.
> If the 31 minutes is involved, and the devices were clocks, then I think
> the time difference more likely would have something to do with the
> length of time that Dan had been on the island.
I really don't understand why you want to ignore that 31 minutes, Dan
doesn't and he is performing the experiment. He is the one who called the
31 minutes "weird", not 2hrs or so, but 31 minutes nothing else The
elapsed 31 minutes is the key to the whole experiment, not ancillary:
"31 minutes...Oh no...This is not good...."
No mention of your two hours. Even if you are right and they are timers
and bow that I think about it you are most likely right -and not clocks
it is the 31 minute gap between them that matters. It 2 hours and 45
minutes after launch but the missile impacted at the 3 hours and 16
minute mark, 31 minutes late. That is what is important.
>
> Further... Even if that payload arrived at 80mph (40 miles in 30 min)...
> He wouldn't be able to reach down at his feet and simply pick it up.
> .There would have been a humongous crater created from its impact.
> ..Jon
----
And there should had been a humongous meteorite creator when that meteor
hit the old chicken place Hurley and his friend used to work at, the one
that obliterated the news crew including the reporter. The impact of a
meteor that large should had obliterated anything in perhaps a 2 mile
radius, and I am being generous. Instead, Hurley and everyone close to
the building didn't even suffer a flash burn. It was done to give a
little humor to the plot of the woes of Hurley's string of bad luck. In
any event, you can clearly tell the speed of the rocket from Regina's
coundown, 2.5 km /per second, that was on screen, no matter how large the
impact creater should had been.
As with "Smallville", you can't take every thing literally when looking
at "Lost" they will cut corners to tell the story, only if it is a major
plot point, as I believe the time dilation phenomena is is when they play
close attention to detail. Therefore I am sure they worked out all the
calculations of the missile and helicopter's speed and its relation in
traveling to the time plane of the outside world, but skimp on what
happens when a object moving at over 4,000mph-or a meteor half the size
of a house at least moving at around 30km/second-which is 16nm per
second-impacts the ground. What you say? It looked liked it was moving
much slower than that? Sure it was, but in real life you shouldn't have
even had seen it. You at most Hugo only should had seen a contrail just
before it hit and not the meteor itself land. The point is the writers
are not going to let them selves be constrained by actual science on some
points.
Perhaps it would had been better for Dan, Frank and Jack-and the
helicopter, (it was damn reckless for Dan to have a missile strike of any
kind near the helicopter btw)to have the missile hit like a couple of
thousand feet away and then trek to the impact site but the writers
presumably wanted to save plot time. After all, even if it was moving at
only 500 miles per hour the kinetic energy should had knock Dan back and
perhaps damaged the chopper, but the writers didn't do that, so don't
take them too seriously in somethings.
Hey, if I am wrong I will admit it. I will not come up with any rube
Goldberg contorted explaination to maintain my theory as I seen here and
in alt.tv.smallville. If anything I give up on my theories TOO soon, ie
Micheal being the spy (I gave up under the compelling arguments of
another poster). :-)
remys...@yahoo.com
follow through people's replies. The phenomena increased the distance
beween Kahana and the island from 40km to 2,500 nautical miles, and
the rocket gained an extra half hour, that it shouldn't have? Meaning
that it's flight time was 90 times longer than anticipated, but it
didn't run out of gas.
Johnn...@webtv.net
>
>I really don't understand why you want to
> ignore that 31 minutes, Dan doesn't and he is
> performing the experiment. He is the one who
> called the 31 minutes "weird",
>
..I think Dan questions it, because of not noticing any lag in their
voice communications. ...Personally, I would have questioned Regina's
claim that the payload reached the beacon after 28 seconds, but it was
no where in sight from Dan's perspective.
Perhaps Mick was the one who set the timer. ...Maybe he was trying to
sabotage that experiment too. ...Jon
Hunter
b4ced1...@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, remys...@yahoo.com says...
-----
It's 66.43 times longer than anticipated. It didn't run out of fuel
because once again we are talking something *like* (but not exactly) real
life relativistic phenomena. Time flowed at normal speed on the rocket
itself and therefore it took, from the rocket's POV, only 28 seconds to
get to the island and not 31 minutes, just like from Sayid's POV it took
only about 20 minutes to get to the Kahana from the island but took
almost a full day to get to the ship from both the island and ship's POV
without Sayid noticing or the helicopter running out of fuel. Jack on the
island said it the chopper was a day over due, but Sayid didn't notice a
day go by untill he landed. The distance traveled in that time of 31
minutes (rocket) and about a full day (helicopter) from the island and
the ships POV is the APPARENT distance, an EQUIVALENT distance to that of
the real world, but it is not the same as they actually moved in our
time plane. Thusly the rocket in its 31 minute flight from the Island's
and ship POV moving at 4,860nmph traveled the equivalent distance of
2,511nm. The helicopter, moving at 113nmph took 22 hours to get from the
island to the ship from the ship's and Island's POV also traveled 2,511nm
because that is how far you would go in a helicopter moving at a constant
113.4nmph for the 22 hours-about a day as Jack noticed-they were gone
from the island and ship's POV. Again form Sayid's and Frank's POV the
flight took only about 20 minutes as it should without the chopper
running out of fuel. Desmond was too busy having his meltdown to notice
either way.
Again light moves too fast for people to detect a lag or distortion
because be it an actual 38.7nm distance between the island and the Kahana
or an APPARENT 2,511nm light is going to cover the distance from the
Island and ship's POV in only a small fraction of a second in either case
(1/4921st and 1/74th of a second respectively). Only how small a fraction
of a second is in question. Just like there is no human detectable
communications lag between New York City and say Cold Spring Harbor on
Long Island, New York 40 miles away, there would be no human detectable
communications lag between New York City and Las Vegas, Nevada even
though they are roughly 2,500 miles apart. It is just like that in the
phenomena, even though the APPARENT distance is 2,511nm between the ship
and the island there still will be no time lag from a human's POV. You
would be able to tell the difference with instruments the differens
between 1/4921st and 1/74th of a second, but not with the human ear.
Hunter
> >
> >I really don't understand why you want to
> > ignore that 31 minutes, Dan doesn't and he is
> > performing the experiment. He is the one who
> > called the 31 minutes "weird",
> >
> I don't ignore it, I just think it is being viewed in the wrong light.
> ..I think Dan questions it, because of not noticing any lag in their
> voice communications. ...Personally, I would have questioned Regina's
> claim that the payload reached the beacon after 28 seconds, but it was
> no where in sight from Dan's perspective.
That is because it was lost in the phenomena. that is the whole point.
there is a time lag between when an object should get there and when it
actually does. It is the same thing with the helicopter. It should had
taken 20 minutes to get to the ship from the island, instead it took
about a day form the island and ships POV. Jack noticed that they were
gone for about a day. Sayid noted that they left at dusk and arrived "in
the middle of the day." Did Regina or someone else fake that? No. And
again, the reason there is no time lag with radio communications is that
light moves too fast for a human to detect a lag. It is as simple as
that. And the reason Dan was able to synchronize his clock on his tripod
setup with the ship.
>
> Perhaps Mick was the one who set the timer. ...Maybe he was trying to
> sabotage that experiment too. ...Jon
No, there was no sabotage! The phenomena is real! See the helicopter
example to verify that. We have two examples of it being real the rocket
and the helicopter. I don't know why you can't accept it, so I guess we
are going to have to agree to disagree and wait to see who is right if
you are going to start thinking sabotage, which there wasn't. Oh and I am
back to thinking that the chronometers are clocks showing the time of day
and not timers showing elapsed time.
Johnn...@webtv.net
>
>Oh and I am back to thinking that the
> chronometers are clocks showing the time of
> day and not timers showing elapsed time.
>
tdciago
> Oh and I am
> back to thinking that the chronometers are clocks showing the time of day
> and not timers showing elapsed time.
They're clocks, as stated in the enhanced version of "The Economist."
(rocket arrives)
The clocks were in sync before the launch
but the clock from the payload rocket
is 31:18 ahead of Faraday's island clock.
http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/The_Economist-Enhanced_transcript
Johnn...@webtv.net
>
>They're clocks, as stated in the enhanced
> version of "The Economist."
>
would not have an indication for the AM and PM. ...And, consider: would
his experiment really have a clock? ..How would he synchronize it, to
know when the payload was launched?
Further, we see Farraday collecting his experiment parts when Sayid
arrives back with Charlotte. Damn... He sure left them lying around a
long time, following a simple 1/2 hr. experiment. ...Jon
Hunter
Johnn...@webtv.net says...
> buffh...@my-deja.com (Hunter) wrote:
> >
> >Both clocks were previously syncronized with
> > each other. When the missile landed the
> > chronometer Dab had showed 2:45 pm. The
> > clock in the missle showed 3:16pm. The
> > missile clock was 31 minutes fast, showing it
> > took 31 minutes longer to arrive than it should
> > had.
> >
> OK, but if the timers were zeroed out, and the payload actually took 2
> 3/4 hr. to reach the island (on island time), then in contrast to the
> ship's perspective, the time difference should be 2 3/4 hr. minus 28
> seconds.
Funny, Dan didn't mention anything about the so called missing 2.75 hours
but noted heavily the 31 minute gap. I think if the rocket was 2hrs. and
45min late he would had mentioned that, especially after he was shocked
when the missile didn't show up after the expected 28 seconds.
> IE: the pay load took 28 seconds to reach the beacon -- off island
> perspective... And 2 3/4 hr. minus 28 seconds, island persepective.
> ..Jon
See above. Dan would had noted that the missle was 2.75 hours late if he
noticed 31 minutes.
Johnn...@webtv.net
>
>Funny, Dan didn't mention anything about the
> so called missing 2.75 hours but noted
> heavily the 31 minute gap.
>
the beacon, in contrast to the 31 minutes, either. ...Don't you think
that was a bit odd too? ..Jon
Hunter
Johnn...@webtv.net says...
Hey it is you that seem to want to ignore the evidence, even going so far
as to ignore what Dan said and the clear objective data like the
countdown, what Jack said about a day passing etc. I haven't seen you
match up the data across the two examples I gave.
We will see who is closer to the truth. If you are right I will be the
first to congratuale you.
Johnn...@webtv.net
>
>We will see who is closer to the truth. If you
> are right I will be the first to congratuale you.
>
what's going on with the time discrepancies. ...I only posted the idea
that the clocks were timers, as I had read that in another post.
.I'm just thinking we don't have enough info. to really figure this
whole thing out yet. ...The difference in time could be done on
purpose (Don't forget, when Sayid and Desmond got to the ship, Regina
was probably already hunting around for a chain to go for a dip)... The
clocks could be timers or they may indeed be clocks... The island may
appear closer to the ship, than what it actually is... Did Farraday
arrive by a route where his watch was in sync. with the ones on the
freighter? ...Or, was his timer also affected by his arrival? ...And by
how much? So.. Did the payload take 28 sec. to come to the island? ..Or
31 minutes? ...Or 2 3/4 hrs.? ...Or 3 hr. 16 min?
I'm waiting for Farraday to either enlighten us, with regards to the
freighter vs. the island, time wise... Or give us a little more
information to assisst us in narrowing things down to a conclusion.
..Jon
Hunter
Of course he was concerned he was looking around the sky wasn't and he
said:
DANIEL: Regina?
REGINA: Five kilometers to beacon.
DANIEL: Huh.
REGINA: Zero.
DANIEL: I don t have it.
[JACK looks at FRANK, who is unconcerned.]
REGINA: That s weird.
DANIEL: That is far more than weird.
And anyone who actually saw this scene will recall the look of utter
confusion on his face. Then when it finally landed..
From "The Economist":
JACK: What is that?
DANIEL: It s a rocket.
[DANIEL removes a small object from the rocket, standing up. As it beeps,
he looks at it, then at his watch. JACK looks confused, FRANK amused.]
DANIEL: Oh, no, no.
[DANIEL rushes over to the tripod. He takes a timepiece off of it, the
time on which reads 02:45:03 and counting. The object from the rocket
is another timepiece, which reads 03:16:22 and counting.]
DANIEL: (to himself) Thirty-one minutes.
[JACK and FRANK approach.]
DANIEL: Oh, no. This is not good.
http://lostpedia.com/wiki/The_Economist_transcript
So let's see: He was confused and befuddled and said it was "...more than
weird" when the Rocket didn't appear on schedule; He was beside himself
saying "This is not good" about the 31 minute delay on the missile's
arrival, but he didn't say squat about it, according to you, being late
for 2.75 hours. Hmmm. Maybe it wasn't gone for 2.75 hours maybe?
Hunter
> >
> >They're clocks, as stated in the enhanced
> > version of "The Economist."
> >
> Well it's possible; however, it does seem strange that a 12 hr. clock
> would not have an indication for the AM and PM. ...And, consider: would
> his experiment really have a clock? ..How would he synchronize it, to
> know when the payload was launched?
As I said, he was receieving a two way signal from the ship, very
possibly from a similar device like the one we saw on his tripod.
[DANIEL pushes a button on his equipment, which beeps.]
DANIEL: I m all, yes, [pushes a button] I m all set here, I have a fix.
Are you locked in?
[JACK looks confused and concerned.]
REGINA: Getting your signal pretty clear.
DANIEL: Oh, okay, great, then. Okay. Fire the payload
http://lostcommunity.co.uk/forums/season-4-transcripts/6686-4-03-
economist-transcript.html
This is how he syncronized the clock on the ship and the clock on his
device.
It is also reasonable to believe that these things have clocks to record
local time don't you think? For logging purposes just like the clock in
video cams. Hell, vertually everything electronic has a clock of some
sort, especially things that record data.
And yes while you do have a point about the AM/PM indicator, they were
called clocks, and not timers specifically in tdciago's post from the
lostpedia link.
>
> Further, we see Farraday collecting his experiment parts when Sayid
> arrives back with Charlotte. Damn... He sure left them lying around a
> long time, following a simple 1/2 hr. experiment. ...Jon
----
First it was supposed to be a 30 second experiment, not a 1/2 hr. one.
Second, It may have been one of a few others. Or just rechecking his
data, or a combination of both. I think it is reasonable to think he was
doing other things with it other than what we saw.
mpc
> As far as I can tell, you're basing all your figures on the 31 minute
> difference in the timing. ...But you're not taking into consideration
> that although from the ships perspective, the payload only took 28
> seconds to arrive at the beacon, it actually took 2 3/4 hours, island
> time, to traverse the 40 miles, and 3 1/4 hours, from the perspective of
> the payload. ...Jon
A rocket of that size could not travel for 2 3/4 hours. Or 3 1/4
hours. .
Unless... we are talking about *magic* rocket fuel !