Highlander University: Comes a Horseman
Jerri LaPoint
hike. He has no interest in discovering who might be looking for him. But
Mac investigates, and there is Cassandra. She's hunting for Kronos, one of
the Four Horsemen. Methos shows up at Mac's place and Cassandra's reaction
is less than welcoming. In fact she accuses him of being a Totally Bad Guy.
He denies it all. Turns out that Kronos is looking for another of the Four
Horsemen. That would be Methos.
Duncan learns the history of the Horsemen and Cassandra and he's not very
happy with Methos. Imagine! A friend of his with a hidden horrific history
of murder and rampage and rape! that he was not confessing voluntarily and
for which he was not asking forgiveness! INCONCEIVABLE! Mac and Methos split
up in a heart-wrenching scene next to the Methos' car.
Cassandra gets all dressed up in high heeled shoes and a sword and goes
after Kronos. Methos uses a little Molotov cocktail to stop the battle, and
drops her off a bridge. Kronos is ready to take Methos' head, but Methos
knows where the remaining two Horsemen are, and the idea of reuniting the
Four is irresistible, so he spares Methos.
Mac promises Cassandra that they'll go a-hunting for Kronos and Methos.
Questions.
1. People get all confused about Cassandra, whether she should have long
ago forgiven Methos for keeping her slave all those years ago; whether she
was nursing her rage and resentment way past time she should have let it all
go. Some people think her very hatred of Methos is undeserved, and that
she's relatively evil herownself, especially if she can't tell that Methos
Has Changed and is no longer Death on a Horse. Some people think Methos
should have been tied down by his nads and Cassandra been given a knife with
which to extract his vitals or pretties, as she chose. Weigh in with
carefully considered opinions, keeping in mind that we're not seeing the
whole story, and we have been presented a carefully edited version of the
tale of Methos & Cassandra.
2. Consider the Following Foursome: Duncan, Cassandra, Methos, Amanda. Who
would win at Monopoly?
3. People come away with differing opinions of Methos. For some, he lost
his attraction all together. For others, the image of Kiss-Me-Methos was
equally as attractive as the image of Evil Duncan MacLeod was in earlier
episodes. Could a common, yet ever-so-attractive Evil Immortal like Grayson
ever hope to compete? You may take into consideration such attributes and
accoutrements as refusal to shave, wearing an earring, choice of pants, hair
length and style, decorating oneself with blue paint, being a snappy
dresser, manner, and attitude.
4. Is, or is not, "Greetings, Brother" the most chillingly perfect entrance
line ever made by an Immortal, bad or good? Has any made more of a statement
or left a more lasting impression?
5. Which is more of a fashion statement: blue face paint or extremely
acrylic fingernails?
Jerri
--
Legacy 2000
Washington, D.C.
May 26 - 29, 2000
http://www.legacycon.org/
********************
http://home.earthlink.net/~jerlapoint
***************************
Jette Goldie
Jerri LaPoint wrote
>Questions.
>1. People get all confused about Cassandra, whether she should have long
>ago forgiven Methos for keeping her slave all those years ago; whether she
>was nursing her rage and resentment way past time she should have let it
all
>go. Some people think her very hatred of Methos is undeserved, and that
>she's relatively evil herownself, especially if she can't tell that Methos
>Has Changed and is no longer Death on a Horse. Some people think Methos
>should have been tied down by his nads and Cassandra been given a knife
with
>which to extract his vitals or pretties, as she chose. Weigh in with
>carefully considered opinions, keeping in mind that we're not seeing the
>whole story, and we have been presented a carefully edited version of the
>tale of Methos & Cassandra.
Long story, big question, NOT gonna go there ;-)
>2. Consider the Following Foursome: Duncan, Cassandra, Methos, Amanda. Who
>would win at Monopoly?
Go directly to jail, do not pass go.
>3. People come away with differing opinions of Methos. For some, he lost
>his attraction all together. For others, the image of Kiss-Me-Methos was
>equally as attractive as the image of Evil Duncan MacLeod was in earlier
>episodes. Could a common, yet ever-so-attractive Evil Immortal like Grayson
>ever hope to compete? You may take into consideration such attributes and
>accoutrements as refusal to shave, wearing an earring, choice of pants,
hair
>length and style, decorating oneself with blue paint, being a snappy
>dresser, manner, and attitude.
Grayson was attractive? I thought he was kind of forgettable.
Maybe some blue paint would have made him memorable,
but I don't think it would have been much his *thing*
>4. Is, or is not, "Greetings, Brother" the most chillingly perfect
entrance
>line ever made by an Immortal, bad or good? Has any made more of a
statement
>or left a more lasting impression?
No one ever forgot him <g>
>5. Which is more of a fashion statement: blue face paint or extremely
>acrylic fingernails?
The fingernails were her own. She paid for them ;-)
Jette Goldie
jette....@u.genie.co.uk
HISTORICON 2001 - Setting the Standards for the Next Millennium
5th & 6th May 2001, Edinburgh, Scotland UK
http://you.genie.co.uk/jette.goldie/
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/historicon
TBird
>hike. He has no interest in discovering who might be looking for him. But
>Mac investigates, and there is Cassandra.
But first there is Koren. THEN Cassandra.
>She's hunting for Kronos, one of
>the Four Horsemen. Methos shows up at Mac's place and Cassandra's reaction
>is less than welcoming. In fact she accuses him of being a Totally Bad Guy.
>He denies it all. Turns out that Kronos is looking for another of the Four
>Horsemen. That would be Methos.
>
>Duncan learns the history of the Horsemen and Cassandra and he's not very
>happy with Methos. Imagine! A friend of his with a hidden horrific history
>of murder and rampage and rape! that he was not confessing voluntarily and
>for which he was not asking forgiveness! INCONCEIVABLE! Mac and Methos split
>up in a heart-wrenching scene next to the Methos' car.
<snerk>
>Cassandra gets all dressed up in high heeled shoes and a sword and goes
>after Kronos. Methos uses a little Molotov cocktail
Methos conks her on the head, IIRC, and saves the molotov cokctails for the Mac
vs. Kronos fight.
> to stop the battle, and
>drops her off a bridge. Kronos is ready to take Methos' head, but Methos
>knows where the remaining two Horsemen are, and the idea of reuniting the
>Four is irresistible, so he spares Methos.
>
>Mac promises Cassandra that they'll go a-hunting for Kronos and Methos.
>
>Questions.
>1. People get all confused about Cassandra, whether she should have long
>ago forgiven Methos for keeping her slave all those years ago; whether she
>was nursing her rage and resentment way past time she should have let it all
>go. Some people think her very hatred of Methos is undeserved, and that
>she's relatively evil herownself, especially if she can't tell that Methos
>Has Changed and is no longer Death on a Horse. Some people think Methos
>should have been tied down by his nads and Cassandra been given a knife with
>which to extract his vitals or pretties, as she chose. Weigh in with
>carefully considered opinions, keeping in mind that we're not seeing the
>whole story, and we have been presented a carefully edited version of the
>tale of Methos & Cassandra.
I think there is room for both.
There is room for Cassandra's righteous anger for the injustices done to her.
She has every right to be furious and irrational and murderous and all sorts of
other stuff. She was raped, and probably killed multiple times until she
capitulated. No one ever explained to her what she was. They killed her
entire tribe - her family, her friends, everyone. They stripped her of what
little heritage she may have had, and all the things her future may have held.
There is also the simple fact that by whatever means, under whatever
circumstances, Methos shook off his Horseman ways, his angry adolescence and
went on to become the Avatar and triumph over evil ... oh - that's the other
thread.... <heh heh heh> Ummm... oh yeah...Methos grew up, grew out of the
Horseman mindset, and moved forward. He may not be a champion of Good, he may
not be America's sweetheart, but he deserves to have his changes noticed, and
he deserves to ask forgiveness if he thinks it's appropriate. Cassandra
certainly deserves some form of justice, I am just not sure what that means in
relation to Methos, other than he now knows what she went through, and he sees
what he helped cause her to be...
>2. Consider the Following Foursome: Duncan, Cassandra, Methos, Amanda. Who
>would win at Monopoly?
LOL.....
Okay.
Well....assuming that Methos and Amanda may not and will not cheat....I'd say
Duncan.
If Amanda and Methos cheat...then Methos. Because Amanda maybe a thief, but
she's not a cunning manipulative one in comparison to the master. He'd
probably convince her he needed to win more desperately, and she'd cave.
>3. People come away with differing opinions of Methos. For some, he lost
>his attraction all together. For others, the image of Kiss-Me-Methos was
>equally as attractive as the image of Evil Duncan MacLeod was in earlier
>episodes. Could a common, yet ever-so-attractive Evil Immortal like Grayson
>ever hope to compete? You may take into consideration such attributes and
>accoutrements as refusal to shave, wearing an earring, choice of pants, hair
>length and style, decorating oneself with blue paint, being a snappy
>dresser, manner, and attitude.
"Kiss Me Methos"? What does that MEAN?
Could an attractvie evil Immie like Grayson compete?
I'm not catching this question. Maybe because I don't find evil attractive.
Bronze Age Methos was just icky and creepy and I am shuddering at the thought
of him - and not in a good way. I never saw Grayson as attractive. He was
evil. Nor did I see Consone as attractive, he was evil. EDM was NOT
attractive. I suspect he stank something fierce. I do not find evil
attractive.
Which is not to say that I wouldn't like to play a game with PRESENT day Methos
in which he growls, "I am Methos. You live to serve me. Never forget that."
>4. Is, or is not, "Greetings, Brother" the most chillingly perfect entrance
>line ever made by an Immortal, bad or good? Has any made more of a statement
>or left a more lasting impression?
Anyone who can make Methos look like he just wet his pants is really far more
evil that I care to contemplate. Lasting impression - whoa YEAH.
>5. Which is more of a fashion statement: blue face paint or extremely
>acrylic fingernails?
Blue face paint.
I never noticed the fingernails until they were made an issue of on ATH. The
blue face paint I noticed right away.
TBird <---- Oh Miiiiiiiiiiiiiiimiiiiiiiiiiiii...here's a good thread to delurk
on, since you just watched these eps.........
~ ~ ~
I used to have a handle on life
But it broke.
- - bumper sticker back by popular demand
icq # 63568829
Sara
>Questions.
>1. People get all confused about Cassandra, whether she should have long
>ago forgiven Methos for keeping her slave all those years ago; whether she
>was nursing her rage and resentment way past time she should have let it all
>go. Some people think her very hatred of Methos is undeserved, and that
>she's relatively evil herownself, especially if she can't tell that Methos
>Has Changed and is no longer Death on a Horse. Some people think Methos
>should have been tied down by his nads and Cassandra been given a knife with
>which to extract his vitals or pretties, as she chose. Weigh in with
>carefully considered opinions, keeping in mind that we're not seeing the
>whole story, and we have been presented a carefully edited version of the
>tale of Methos & Cassandra.
I'll pass on this question for now, but reserve the right to answer in
future...
>2. Consider the Following Foursome: Duncan, Cassandra, Methos, Amanda. Who
>would win at Monopoly?
Good question... After careful consideration, I think it would be easiest to
say that Duncan would lose. Amanda has never had any trouble talking Duncan
into doing what is best for her. Methos is an expert on manipulating Duncan's
actions. And Cassandra, well... she has also been able to talk Duncan into
fighting for her.
If cheating were allowed, either Methos or Cassandra would win. It would
depend on whether Methos (like Kronos) was immune to "the voice". If so,
Cassandra doesn't stand a chance.
>3. People come away with differing opinions of Methos. For some, he lost
>his attraction all together. For others, the image of Kiss-Me-Methos was
>equally as attractive as the image of Evil Duncan MacLeod was in earlier
>episodes. Could a common, yet ever-so-attractive Evil Immortal like Grayson
>ever hope to compete? You may take into consideration such attributes and
>accoutrements as refusal to shave, wearing an earring, choice of pants, hair
>length and style, decorating oneself with blue paint, being a snappy
>dresser, manner, and attitude.
Sorry teach, I barely remember Grayson. But BAMethos kept me up for days!
>4. Is, or is not, "Greetings, Brother" the most chillingly perfect entrance
>line ever made by an Immortal, bad or good? Has any made more of a statement
>or left a more lasting impression?
Yes, no respectively.
>5. Which is more of a fashion statement: blue face paint or extremely
>acrylic fingernails?
It would depend on what the wearer wished to say. Blue face paint is good for
raping and pillaging...(ok so the fingernails might work as well if they were
strong enough)
Sara <official bartender for ATH gutter>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"We are young, wandering the face of earth, wondering what our dreams might be
worth, learning we're only Immortal for a limited time." - Neil Peart
Valerie Sawyer
<snip>
Questions.
1. People get all confused about Cassandra, whether she should have long
ago forgiven Methos for keeping her slave all those years ago; whether she
was nursing her rage and resentment way past time she should have let it all
go. Some people think her very hatred of Methos is undeserved, and that
she's relatively evil herownself, especially if she can't tell that Methos
Has Changed and is no longer Death on a Horse. Some people think Methos
should have been tied down by his nads and Cassandra been given a knife with
which to extract his vitals or pretties, as she chose. Weigh in with
carefully considered opinions, keeping in mind that we're not seeing the
whole story, and we have been presented a carefully edited version of the
tale of Methos & Cassandra.
OK. One thing that has crossed my mind is that a lot of times forgiveness
comes with time - so at first I thought that Cassandra should have been
over this waaaaay long ago. But then I thought about it some more - what
mellows us and brings about forgiveness is not so much "time" as
it is "aging". As we age and we lose some of our vitality and ambition
and we realize that there really is an "end" coming one day, it begins
to bring things into focus and causes us to see what a waste it is to hold
grudges. Cassandra, being immortal, doesn't have this aging process on
her side. She will always be young, beautiful, invincible (to a point)
and therefore just doesn't see the need to forgive anybody.
2. Consider the Following Foursome: Duncan, Cassandra, Methos, Amanda. Who
would win at Monopoly?
On Amanda of course! She'd find some way to steal everybody's elses
properties & money!
3. People come away with differing opinions of Methos. For some, he lost
his attraction all together. For others, the image of Kiss-Me-Methos was
equally as attractive as the image of Evil Duncan MacLeod was in earlier
episodes. Could a common, yet ever-so-attractive Evil Immortal like Grayson
ever hope to compete? You may take into consideration such attributes and
accoutrements as refusal to shave, wearing an earring, choice of pants, hair
length and style, decorating oneself with blue paint, being a snappy
dresser, manner, and attitude.
I remember a thread we had once on the Rysher Forum last year about
why so many women are attracted to the "bad boy". For a lot of us, that
just does it for us! A guy may be just as average as average can be - but
let him put on a barbarian clothing and paint his face blue - and I'm there!
:)
4. Is, or is not, "Greetings, Brother" the most chillingly perfect entrance
line ever made by an Immortal, bad or good? Has any made more of a statement
or left a more lasting impression?
It spoke volumes, that's for sure.
5. Which is more of a fashion statement: blue face paint or extremely
acrylic fingernails?
Hard to say. Just glad it wasn't the other way around - Cass with the blue
face & Methos with the long nails - then we'd *really* have something
to discuss!
PS - This is my very first HLU!!! How'd I do??? When do I graduate? Do I get to be Valedictorian??
John Biltz
"Jerri LaPoint" <jerla...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:HdLF4.15053$9m6.6...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Mac and Methos are hanging out, when they get The Buzz and Methos takes a
> hike. He has no interest in discovering who might be looking for him. But
> the Four Horsemen. Methos shows up at Mac's place and Cassandra's reaction
> is less than welcoming. In fact she accuses him of being a Totally Bad
Guy.
> He denies it all. Turns out that Kronos is looking for another of the Four
> Horsemen. That would be Methos.
>
> Duncan learns the history of the Horsemen and Cassandra and he's not very
> happy with Methos. Imagine! A friend of his with a hidden horrific history
> of murder and rampage and rape! that he was not confessing voluntarily and
> for which he was not asking forgiveness! INCONCEIVABLE! Mac and Methos
split
> up in a heart-wrenching scene next to the Methos' car.
>
and
> drops her off a bridge. Kronos is ready to take Methos' head, but Methos
> knows where the remaining two Horsemen are, and the idea of reuniting the
> Four is irresistible, so he spares Methos.
>
> Mac promises Cassandra that they'll go a-hunting for Kronos and Methos.
>
> 1. People get all confused about Cassandra, whether she should have long
> ago forgiven Methos for keeping her slave all those years ago; whether she
> was nursing her rage and resentment way past time she should have let it
all
> go. Some people think her very hatred of Methos is undeserved, and that
> she's relatively evil herownself, especially if she can't tell that Methos
> Has Changed and is no longer Death on a Horse. Some people think Methos
> should have been tied down by his nads and Cassandra been given a knife
with
> which to extract his vitals or pretties, as she chose. Weigh in with
> carefully considered opinions, keeping in mind that we're not seeing the
> whole story, and we have been presented a carefully edited version of the
> tale of Methos & Cassandra.
I think Cassandra was right to want to kill him through both episodes until
he finally turns and betrays the Horseman killing Silas and saving her life.
If that was not an act of redemption then I don't know what was. I thought
he paid his debt there, at least to her. Her killing him while he was
helpless from the very act of saving her neck would have been wrong. I
think if she came up to him at a later date and challenged him then, it
would be different, it would be right if she still felt the way she did
about him. I guess it seems just ethically wrong to kill him then and there
like that. But she had been through a lot in the past and the last few days
as well. I don't imagine seeing them all together like that did her peace
of mind any good. It must have been like her worst nightmares.
> 2. Consider the Following Foursome: Duncan, Cassandra, Methos, Amanda.
Who
> would win at Monopoly?
At monopoly, well Methos.
> 3. People come away with differing opinions of Methos. For some, he lost
> his attraction all together. For others, the image of Kiss-Me-Methos was
> equally as attractive as the image of Evil Duncan MacLeod was in earlier
> episodes. Could a common, yet ever-so-attractive Evil Immortal like
Grayson
> ever hope to compete? You may take into consideration such attributes and
> accoutrements as refusal to shave, wearing an earring, choice of pants,
hair
> length and style, decorating oneself with blue paint, being a snappy
> dresser, manner, and attitude.
I think I will pass on this one.
> 4. Is, or is not, "Greetings, Brother" the most chillingly perfect
entrance
> line ever made by an Immortal, bad or good? Has any made more of a
statement
> or left a more lasting impression?
It was a good line, no doubt about that. Methos had a pretty good one back
in the bronze age as well.
> 5. Which is more of a fashion statement: blue face paint or extremely
> acrylic fingernails?
I would have to say the blue face paint, certainly something that would make
you stand out from the other commutter going to work in the morning. Or for
that matter just about anywhere else except maybe Mardi Gras or Carnival.
I was Death, Death on a Moose
Athena
*snip*
> Duncan learns the history of the Horsemen and Cassandra and he's not very
> happy with Methos. Imagine! A friend of his with a hidden horrific history
> of murder and rampage and rape! that he was not confessing voluntarily and
> for which he was not asking forgiveness! INCONCEIVABLE!
LOL!
*And* he doesn't even have the excuse of being certifiably insane! How did
he ever come to be a friend of DM's? It's so uncharacteristic!
> Questions.
> 1. People get all confused about Cassandra, whether she should have long
> ago forgiven Methos for keeping her slave all those years ago; whether she
> was nursing her rage and resentment way past time she should have let it
all
> go. Some people think her very hatred of Methos is undeserved, and that
> she's relatively evil herownself, especially if she can't tell that Methos
> Has Changed and is no longer Death on a Horse.
I think she was pretty brave going after Kronos. I also think she was
pretty stupid going after Kronos.
>Some people think Methos
> should have been tied down by his nads and Cassandra been given a knife
with
> which to extract his vitals or pretties, as she chose.
No - he's far too cute for that. <shallow? I can do shallow!>
> 2. Consider the Following Foursome: Duncan, Cassandra, Methos, Amanda.
Who
> would win at Monopoly?
How can you tell you've been playing Monopoly with:
Duncan (old boot): he's the banker, everything's in order, no cheating,
pretty dull
Cassandra (flat iron): she's used the voice and everyone has fallen
asleep
Amanda (liner): she's got all the get out of jail free cards, the
community chest has been rifled and she has suspiciously more money than the
bank does
Methos (top hat): everything appears to be functioning as with Duncan,
but whenever you get a bit of property you've been waiting for, you always
have to sell it to him because he has strategically placed hotels.
Kronos (stick of dynamite): he uses the break out of jail free card, robs
the bank, steals the community chest, destroys the utilities and sets fire
to the houses and hotels
> 3. People come away with differing opinions of Methos. For some, he lost
> his attraction all together. For others, the image of Kiss-Me-Methos was
> equally as attractive as the image of Evil Duncan MacLeod was in earlier
> episodes. Could a common, yet ever-so-attractive Evil Immortal like
Grayson
> ever hope to compete? You may take into consideration such attributes and
> accoutrements as refusal to shave, wearing an earring, choice of pants,
hair
> length and style, decorating oneself with blue paint, being a snappy
> dresser, manner, and attitude.
I found the scene with Methos and Cassandra in the camp to be very chilling,
a lot more than Grayson, we're talking absolute power here.
I also thought that Methos in blue paint to be pretty attractive, especially
as the long hair looks a lot more convincing on video than it does in
pictures.
> 4. Is, or is not, "Greetings, Brother" the most chillingly perfect
entrance
> line ever made by an Immortal, bad or good? Has any made more of a
statement
> or left a more lasting impression?
It's a very good line.
However, for me, "I am Duncan MacLeod of the Clan MacLeod..." while wearing
a pair of jeans and a film of sweat takes the biscuit for memorable
entrances.
> 5. Which is more of a fashion statement: blue face paint or extremely
> acrylic fingernails?
Hate, hate, hate acrylic fingernails no matter who they're on. So I'm going
with the blue face paint.
Either would be preferable to Koren's beard, where it looked like someone
had smeared his chin with glue and then let a horse swish its tail in his
face.
--
Athena <-- humming "Keep right on to the end of the woad..."
You get the facts from outside.
The truth you get from inside.
-- Ursula K Le Guin
ath...@bigtitch.spammerfreeserve.co.uk
-remove the spammer from the works to reply
Jerri LaPoint
> PS - This is my very first HLU!!! How'd I do??? When do
> I graduate? Do I get to be Valedictorian??
Congratulations on your very first HLU. You did very well. Graduation
ceremonies will be held in May, if all goes according to schedule. No, you
don't get to be Valedictorian. On the other hand, neither does anyone else.
FYI : many persons who read the newsgroup would appreciate very much your
turning HTML "off". Your post looked very nice, but lots of news readers
can't deal with HTML coding. They'll see a subject heading and a blank page
where your message ought to be. I turned it "off" for my reply. <G>
schatze
Jerri LaPoint <jerla...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:HdLF4.15053$9m6.6...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Mac and Methos are hanging out, when they get The Buzz and Methos takes a
> hike. He has no interest in discovering who might be looking for him. But
> Mac investigates, and there is Cassandra. She's hunting for Kronos, one of
> the Four Horsemen. Methos shows up at Mac's place and Cassandra's reaction
> is less than welcoming.
* Maybe as well as Our Lady of the Acrylic Fingernails, she holds the
title of Our Lady of Perpetual Mood Swings......
>In fact she accuses him of being a Totally Bad Guy.
> He denies it all. Turns out that Kronos is looking for another of the Four
> Horsemen. That would be Methos.
>
> Duncan learns the history of the Horsemen and Cassandra and he's not very
> happy with Methos. Imagine! A friend of his with a hidden horrific history
> of murder and rampage and rape! that he was not confessing voluntarily and
> for which he was not asking forgiveness!
* And it wasn't even a dark Q !!
INCONCEIVABLE! Mac and Methos split
> up in a heart-wrenching scene next to the Methos' car.
>
> Cassandra gets all dressed up in high heeled shoes and a sword and goes
> after Kronos.
* Did she get a manicure, too?
Methos uses a little Molotov cocktail to stop the battle, and
> drops her off a bridge. Kronos is ready to take Methos' head, but Methos
> knows where the remaining two Horsemen are, and the idea of reuniting the
> Four is irresistible, so he spares Methos.
>
> Mac promises Cassandra that they'll go a-hunting for Kronos and Methos.
>
> Questions.
> 1. People get all confused about Cassandra, whether she should have long
> ago forgiven Methos for keeping her slave all those years ago; whether she
> was nursing her rage and resentment way past time she should have let it
all
> go. Some people think her very hatred of Methos is undeserved, and that
> she's relatively evil herownself, especially if she can't tell that Methos
> Has Changed and is no longer Death on a Horse. Some people think Methos
> should have been tied down by his nads and Cassandra been given a knife
with
> which to extract his vitals or pretties, as she chose. Weigh in with
> carefully considered opinions, keeping in mind that we're not seeing the
> whole story, and we have been presented a carefully edited version of the
> tale of Methos & Cassandra.
And the TV14 version at that. My take on Old Cassie was that she was won
over to *like totally* being into Methos and being his slave wasn't so bad
after all. Maybe he was a Benevolent Dictator. However, she considered it
a slap in the face to be handed over to Kronos, like a usable commodity.
She didn't take it well at all. For Methos part, I got the impression that
he was trying to keep Kronos from going postal over any attachment he may
have had with Cassie, so he took the appeasement route. You don't want to
get Kronos' on his bad side. I can for some reason think she didn't get
over being a woman scorned , but should have gotten over the abuse. Don't
ask me why.
> 2. Consider the Following Foursome: Duncan, Cassandra, Methos, Amanda.
Who
> would win at Monopoly?
Amanda -----> She'd cheat.
> 3. People come away with differing opinions of Methos. For some, he lost
> his attraction all together. For others, the image of Kiss-Me-Methos was
> equally as attractive as the image of Evil Duncan MacLeod was in earlier
> episodes. Could a common, yet ever-so-attractive Evil Immortal like
Grayson
> ever hope to compete? You may take into consideration such attributes and
> accoutrements as refusal to shave, wearing an earring, choice of pants,
hair
> length and style, decorating oneself with blue paint, being a snappy
> dresser, manner, and attitude.
Grayson was smarmy and overrated in my book. His hair was icky in a country
singer kind of way. His attitude was snide. He was a real snappy dresser,
I'll give him that. Methos is nice enough, just doesn't posses enough of
the Manly Holy Triumvirate for me : Dark hair, English accent, blue eyes.
> 4. Is, or is not, "Greetings, Brother" the most chillingly perfect
entrance
> line ever made by an Immortal, bad or good? Has any made more of a
statement
> or left a more lasting impression?
Well, I'd forgotten it. But that's just me.... sorry......
> 5. Which is more of a fashion statement: blue face paint or extremely
> acrylic fingernails?
> Jerri
Acrylic fingernails. The face paint is so Bronze Age and not fashion
forward.
schatze -------> Kinda disappointed the teacher didn't ask any Stick Boy
questions
Ladeebkwrm
TBird wrote in message <20000402140500...@nso-fo.aol.com>...
>I think there is room for both.
>
>There is room for Cassandra's righteous anger for the injustices done to
her.
>She has every right to be furious and irrational and murderous and all
sorts of
>other stuff. She was raped, and probably killed multiple times until she
>capitulated. No one ever explained to her what she was. They killed her
>entire tribe - her family, her friends, everyone. They stripped her of
what
>little heritage she may have had, and all the things her future may have
held.
>
>There is also the simple fact that by whatever means, under whatever
>circumstances, Methos shook off his Horseman ways, his angry adolescence
and
>went on to become the Avatar and triumph over evil ... oh - that's the
other
>thread.... <heh heh heh> Ummm... oh yeah...Methos grew up, grew out of the
>Horseman mindset, and moved forward. He may not be a champion of Good, he
may
>not be America's sweetheart,
He's mine, doesn't that count for anything? *sniff, sniff*
>but he deserves to have his changes noticed, and
>he deserves to ask forgiveness if he thinks it's appropriate. Cassandra
>certainly deserves some form of justice, I am just not sure what that means
in
>relation to Methos, other than he now knows what she went through, and he
sees
>what he helped cause her to be...
BTW, T, this is very good. I was just going to answer "both" and be done
with it, but you said it so well.
*snippety-doo-dah*
>Which is not to say that I wouldn't like to play a game with PRESENT day
Methos
>in which he growls, "I am Methos. You live to serve me. Never forget
that."
*squeak*
::::THUD::::
(oh, and I agree with you about all the "evil is not attractive" stuff. But
the thought of Methos growling at me just...*sigh*)
Kristina
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Agreement is overrated, and far too boring anyway" ;) - waylayer
AIM: LadeeBookwrm
IM inside AOL: ladeebkwrm
ICQ #: 40571882
X-No-Archive: yes
Ladeebkwrm
Athena wrote in message <8c85u9$et7$2...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>How can you tell you've been playing Monopoly with:
>Duncan (old boot): he's the banker, everything's in order, no cheating,
>pretty dull
>Cassandra (flat iron): she's used the voice and everyone has fallen
>asleep
>Amanda (liner): she's got all the get out of jail free cards, the
>community chest has been rifled and she has suspiciously more money than
the
>bank does
>Methos (top hat): everything appears to be functioning as with Duncan,
>but whenever you get a bit of property you've been waiting for, you always
>have to sell it to him because he has strategically placed hotels.
>Kronos (stick of dynamite): he uses the break out of jail free card,
robs
>the bank, steals the community chest, destroys the utilities and sets fire
>to the houses and hotels
LOL!!!
This is great!
Ladeebkwrm
schatze wrote in message ...
>Methos is nice enough, just doesn't posses enough of
>the Manly Holy Triumvirate for me : Dark hair, English accent, blue eyes.
So 2 out of 3 doesn't work, huh?
Kristina <works for me>
Jette Goldie
Athena wrote
>How can you tell you've been playing Monopoly with:
>Duncan (old boot): he's the banker, everything's in order, no cheating,
>pretty dull
>Cassandra (flat iron): she's used the voice and everyone has fallen
>asleep
>Amanda (liner): she's got all the get out of jail free cards, the
>community chest has been rifled and she has suspiciously more money than
the
>bank does
>Methos (top hat): everything appears to be functioning as with Duncan,
>but whenever you get a bit of property you've been waiting for, you always
>have to sell it to him because he has strategically placed hotels.
>Kronos (stick of dynamite): he uses the break out of jail free card,
robs
>the bank, steals the community chest, destroys the utilities and sets fire
>to the houses and hotels
LOL! Great analysis!
schatze
Ladeebkwrm <ladee...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8c89u8$7r3g$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com...
>
>
> schatze wrote in message ...
> >Methos is nice enough, just doesn't posses enough of
> >the Manly Holy Triumvirate for me : Dark hair, English accent, blue
eyes.
>
> So 2 out of 3 doesn't work, huh?
And I need to possess a spellchecker! <G>
schatze ------> Dazzled by 2/3's I guess
Cherna
> 1. People get all confused about Cassandra, whether she should have long
> ago forgiven Methos for keeping her slave all those years ago; whether she
> was nursing her rage and resentment way past time she should have let it all
> go. Some people think her very hatred of Methos is undeserved, and that
> she's relatively evil herownself, especially if she can't tell that Methos
> Has Changed and is no longer Death on a Horse. Some people think Methos
> should have been tied down by his nads and Cassandra been given a knife with
> which to extract his vitals or pretties, as she chose. Weigh in with
> carefully considered opinions, keeping in mind that we're not seeing the
> whole story, and we have been presented a carefully edited version of the
> tale of Methos & Cassandra.
I feel she'd forgiven him in her fashion. Doesn't mean she'd have to
forget. Encountering Methos may have brought everything back to the
forefront. She's had a long time to think. Hindsight is 20/20. I'd say
she wanted him to hurt as much as she did/was. In the present day, she
was in a position to accomplish that. Like you've pointed out, it's a
carefully edited tale.
As for Methos, we only know what is shown us. Can we really know that
what he utters is the truth? Perhaps it's the truth at the time.
Different time/place may mean a different truth. Let he who is without
sin cast the first stone. It sure won't be Methos. As for Cassandra, we
don't have enough of a back story.
Wonder how much controversy would have been caused if they've used
another character that DM & Methos would have had in common?
> 2. Consider the Following Foursome: Duncan, Cassandra, Methos, Amanda. Who
> would win at Monopoly?
Hmm... I say toss up between Amanda & Methos. Don't care whether or not
there's cheating involved. You use your skills and talent. Depends on
how bad you want something and if it's worth the risk.
> 3. People come away with differing opinions of Methos. For some, he lost
> his attraction all together. For others, the image of Kiss-Me-Methos was
> equally as attractive as the image of Evil Duncan MacLeod was in earlier
> episodes. Could a common, yet ever-so-attractive Evil Immortal like Grayson
> ever hope to compete? You may take into consideration such attributes and
> accoutrements as refusal to shave, wearing an earring, choice of pants, hair
> length and style, decorating oneself with blue paint, being a snappy
> dresser, manner, and attitude.
Methos. Definitely an intriguing character. However, my heart was won by
Kronos. Perhaps if he'd never existed, I might wax poetic over Methos. I
will say that I wasn't at all surprised. To me, the picture that had
been painted of him was too good. You kinda knew there were skeletons
somewhere, just didn't have the necessary key to find em and haul em out
into the light.
Grayson was unique to himself. I'm sure he appealed to many. Just a
little over the top for me. If Kronos isn't your cup of tea, you may
wonder how I see Grayson as being a bit 'out there'. Different strokes
people.
What a boring world it would be if we all like the same thing. Way too
vanilla for my taste. But I digress...
> 4. Is, or is not, "Greetings, Brother" the most chillingly perfect entrance
> line ever made by an Immortal, bad or good? Has any made more of a statement
> or left a more lasting impression?
::enraptured smile:: Before or after I pick myself up off the floor?
Erm... where was I? Oh yes, the greeting... it certainly sticks in your
mind and rings in your ears. There's a promise in his voice when he
utters it, only I don't think brother Methos is at all glad to hear it.
> 5. Which is more of a fashion statement: blue face paint or extremely
> acrylic fingernails?
I didn't notice the fingernails. Don't have long ones (real or otherwise
myself). Took ATH and other on-line lists and forums to point out that
fact. Long nails prolly came in useful back then. Blue face paint is
more acceptable than woad... thank goodness times change. I really liked
Kronos' facial paint & design, but you didn't mention that. Oh well,
maybe another time!
Cherna, Horsemen Fan Fiction Archivist
Terra Incognita http://www.angelfire.com/mi/cherna/
Ladeebkwrm
schatze wrote in message ...
>
>Ladeebkwrm <ladee...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:8c89u8$7r3g$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com...
>>
>>
>> schatze wrote in message ...
>> >Methos is nice enough, just doesn't posses enough of
>> >the Manly Holy Triumvirate for me : Dark hair, English accent, blue
>eyes.
>>
>> So 2 out of 3 doesn't work, huh?
>
>
>And I need to possess a spellchecker! <G>
LOL! I didn't even notice, till you pointed it out.
>schatze ------> Dazzled by 2/3's I guess
Guess so. <g>
Kristina
Ladeebkwrm
Cherna wrote in message <38E7B510...@ameritech.net>...
>Grayson was unique to himself. I'm sure he appealed to many. Just a
>little over the top for me. If Kronos isn't your cup of tea, you may
>wonder how I see Grayson as being a bit 'out there'. Different strokes
>people.
>What a boring world it would be if we all like the same thing. Way too
>vanilla for my taste. But I digress...
Well, Kronos isn't my cup of tea, *grin*, but I agree with you about
Grayson. Someone else said 'smarmy'. Yep. Now, my hubby thought he was a
cool k'immie. *shakes head*
>> 4. Is, or is not, "Greetings, Brother" the most chillingly perfect
entrance
>> line ever made by an Immortal, bad or good? Has any made more of a
statement
>> or left a more lasting impression?
>
>::enraptured smile:: Before or after I pick myself up off the floor?
>Erm... where was I? Oh yes, the greeting... it certainly sticks in your
>mind and rings in your ears. There's a promise in his voice when he
>utters it, only I don't think brother Methos is at all glad to hear it.
Oh, and it's such a lovely voice too. I love VP's voice. And definitely
the best entrance by an Immortal ever. AP is prettier, IMO, but even the
begining of "The Gathering" just doesn't have this impact for me.
Kristina <watched N2B with hubby, and got all excited when Kronos jumped
through the door. Told hubby..."wait, wait, here it comes" and in unison
with the TV, said "Greetings, Brother". It's not the same, but it
sufficed. <g>
Athers
and
> drops her off a bridge. Kronos is ready to take Methos' head, but Methos
> knows where the remaining two Horsemen are, and the idea of reuniting the
> Four is irresistible, so he spares Methos.
Wrong fight - Methos dumps Cassandra off a bridge *then* breaks up Mac and
Kronos' fight with the Molotov cocktails. (Sorry - just being pickey)
> Questions.
> 1. People get all confused about Cassandra, whether she should have long
> ago forgiven Methos for keeping her slave all those years ago; whether she
> was nursing her rage and resentment way past time she should have let it
all
> go. Some people think her very hatred of Methos is undeserved, and that
> she's relatively evil herownself, especially if she can't tell that Methos
> Has Changed and is no longer Death on a Horse. Some people think Methos
> should have been tied down by his nads and Cassandra been given a knife
with
> which to extract his vitals or pretties, as she chose. Weigh in with
> carefully considered opinions, keeping in mind that we're not seeing the
> whole story, and we have been presented a carefully edited version of the
> tale of Methos & Cassandra.
You're right - we don't know the whole story, but Cassandra makes sure she
doesn't know the whole story, she's not even willing to listen. In her
position, three thousand years after the fact, I'd still be pissed off at my
treatment - that they kept me in the dark about what I was, that they took
my life away from me - but I would like to think I'd got to the point where
I would want to know *why*.
The other thing is, Methos really has changed IMHO. The lengths he goes to
in Timeless/Methuselah's Gift for Alexa are lengths that Death would never
have gone to for anyone. He isn't the man he was and to have turned himself
around from being the absolute bad guy to being someone who is essentially a
good guy takes courage and one hell of a will to change.
The hatered of Cassandra for Methos is understandable, but by making herself
unwilling to recognise that he's different now, she's forfited the right to
some sort of justice - she's made herself almost as bad as the Horsemen
were.
> 2. Consider the Following Foursome: Duncan, Cassandra, Methos, Amanda.
>Who would win at Monopoly?
Methos, with or without cheating. (Unless he was unresistive to The Voice,
in which case, Cassandra - because she could cheat and have the others say
she'd played by the rules.
> 3. People come away with differing opinions of Methos. For some, he lost
> his attraction all together. For others, the image of Kiss-Me-Methos was
> equally as attractive as the image of Evil Duncan MacLeod was in earlier
> episodes. Could a common, yet ever-so-attractive Evil Immortal like
Grayson
> ever hope to compete? You may take into consideration such attributes and
> accoutrements as refusal to shave, wearing an earring, choice of pants,
hair
> length and style, decorating oneself with blue paint, being a snappy
> dresser, manner, and attitude.
uhm...pass - I cannot remember Grayson at all. (Must have made a *real*
impression on me, then!)
> 4. Is, or is not, "Greetings, Brother" the most chillingly perfect
entrance
> line ever made by an Immortal, bad or good? Has any made more of a
statement
> or left a more lasting impression?
It sends shivers down my spine each time I see it - it's not just the words,
or the tone, or the knife to the chest, it's the whole lot, and the fact
that this question is being asked answers the second half of the question; I
don't think I've seen an entry by ANY OTHER CHARACTER on ANY OTHER TV SHOW
make such a lasting impression.
> 5. Which is more of a fashion statement: blue face paint or extremely
> acrylic fingernails?
Fingernails? I can't have been paying attention - I didn't notice no
fingernails. Guess I'll have to say the face paint then.
<sticks hand up in class>
OK. I've been storing these up for weeks, and I don't care if the teacher
says no, I'm asking them anyway.
6. When the Jimmy scene starts, Methos is loading up his SUV to go
somewhere - and that somewhere is clearly intended to be permanent. Where?
Is this in preparation for going to Bordeaux or is he perhaps intending to
skip town and lose Kronos?
7. Why is Kronos not susceptible to The Voice? Does this mean Methos is as
well?
8. Cassandra is clearly not much of a swords woman for an Immortal, as
compared to, say, Amanda. Is The Voice the only reason Cassandra's kept her
head all these centuries?
Rach <who uses the 'I killed, but I didn't just kill fifty, I didn't kill a
hundred, I killed a thousand, I killed ten thousand - and I was good at it'
speech to get rid of the 'nutter on the bus'><see those nutter's run!>
--
The allegations were denied as police continue to question the alligators
Kathy Morey
> Questions.
> 1. People get all confused about Cassandra, whether she should have long
> ago forgiven Methos for keeping her slave all those years ago; whether she
> was nursing her rage and resentment way past time she should have let it all
> go. Some people think her very hatred of Methos is undeserved, and that
> she's relatively evil herownself, especially if she can't tell that Methos
> Has Changed and is no longer Death on a Horse. Some people think Methos
> should have been tied down by his nads and Cassandra been given a knife with
> which to extract his vitals or pretties, as she chose. Weigh in with
> carefully considered opinions, keeping in mind that we're not seeing the
> whole story, and we have been presented a carefully edited version of the
> tale of Methos & Cassandra.
First, I don't think Cassandra spent the last however-many-thousands of years
being consumed with rage and revenge. I think she had managed to put her past
in the past and live her life, saving cute young boys who then grew into hunky,
gorgeous men who were destined for Great Things. But to be suddenly faced with
the knowledge that your enslavers are alive after you had thought them dead for
most of those however-many-thousands of years, and then to come face-to-face
with one of them, who has insinuated himself into the life of *your*
saved-gorgeous-guy-destined-etc.!!! I think the shock overwhelmed her, and
brought all that hatred and rage that she never got to have closure about
surging back to the surface.
> 2. Consider the Following Foursome: Duncan, Cassandra, Methos, Amanda. Who
> would win at Monopoly?
<snerk>
I can't even *begin* to try to logically, rationally, insanely, or even
"sillily" figure this out!
> 3. People come away with differing opinions of Methos. For some, he lost
> his attraction all together. For others, the image of Kiss-Me-Methos was
> equally as attractive as the image of Evil Duncan MacLeod was in earlier
> episodes. Could a common, yet ever-so-attractive Evil Immortal like Grayson
> ever hope to compete? You may take into consideration such attributes and
> accoutrements as refusal to shave, wearing an earring, choice of pants, hair
> length and style, decorating oneself with blue paint, being a snappy
> dresser, manner, and attitude.
I'm in the "run the other way - eeew" camp on this one. Physical attractiveness
by itself, even in the huge quantities possessed by EDM and Bronze Age Methos,
just isn't enough to overcome the "eeew" factor.
> 4. Is, or is not, "Greetings, Brother" the most chillingly perfect entrance
> line ever made by an Immortal, bad or good? Has any made more of a statement
> or left a more lasting impression?
Yes. No.
> 5. Which is more of a fashion statement: blue face paint or extremely
> acrylic fingernails?
Man, I really, really, really, really, really wish Ms Scroggins had not done
that. It didn't bother me as much as it bothered some, but it did momentarily
jar me out of the story the first time Cassandra, in dirty face, scraggly hair,
and Bronze Age clothing, held up hands with perfectly manicured nails. ::sigh::
Kathy
"Comes A Horseman"
Cassandra's in town for a Hunt;
Ancient killers she longs to confront.
Mac is almost undone
Learning *Methos* is one -
The he *liked* being Death, to be blunt.
NiH
Jerri LaPoint wrote in message ...
>Mac and Methos are hanging out, when they get The Buzz and Methos takes a
>hike. He has no interest in discovering who might be looking for him. But
>Mac investigates, and there is Cassandra.
Excuse me, but YOU COMPLETELY LEFT OUT THE KOREN FLASHBACK!!!
> She's hunting for Kronos, one of
>the Four Horsemen. Methos shows up at Mac's place and Cassandra's reaction
>is less than welcoming. In fact she accuses him of being a Totally Bad Guy.
>He denies it all. Turns out that Kronos is looking for another of the Four
>Horsemen. That would be Methos.
>
>Duncan learns the history of the Horsemen and Cassandra and he's not very
>happy with Methos. Imagine! A friend of his with a hidden horrific history
>of murder and rampage and rape! that he was not confessing voluntarily and
>for which he was not asking forgiveness! INCONCEIVABLE! Mac and Methos
split
>up in a heart-wrenching scene next to the Methos' car.
>
>Cassandra gets all dressed up in high heeled shoes and a sword and goes
>after Kronos. Methos uses a little Molotov cocktail to stop the battle, and
>drops her off a bridge. Kronos is ready to take Methos' head, but Methos
>knows where the remaining two Horsemen are, and the idea of reuniting the
>Four is irresistible, so he spares Methos.
>
>Mac promises Cassandra that they'll go a-hunting for Kronos and Methos.
>
>Questions.
>1. People get all confused about Cassandra, whether she should have long
>ago forgiven Methos for keeping her slave all those years ago; whether she
>was nursing her rage and resentment way past time she should have let it
all
>go.
These people, obviously, have never been raped or enslaved. Therefore,
they should shut up.
>Some people think her very hatred of Methos is undeserved, and that
>she's relatively evil herownself,
There's NOTHING to warrant this little cheapshot, and this is only said
by those really over-the-top pro-Methos types (see below) who automatically
assume anyone who dares question the ROG to be Evil Incarnate.
>especially if she can't tell that Methos
>Has Changed and is no longer Death on a Horse.
This is the response of only a truly, unreasonably fanatical Methosian,
and the kind of B.S. that has gottne me into untold numbers of truly
hate-filled 'net disputes. Cassandra hasn't seen Methos in 3,000 years,
maybe more, and the last time she *did* see him, he was handing her over to
Kronos to be defiled all night, and perhaps to Caspian to be eaten. So now,
she's supposed to walk into the Dojo, see Methos, and immediately sense an
aura of peace and wisdom about him, in the space, of an instant? And just
forgive him right htere? Give us a break!
>Some people think Methos
>should have been tied down by his nads and Cassandra been given a knife
with
>which to extract his vitals or pretties, as she chose. Weigh in with
>carefully considered opinions, keeping in mind that we're not seeing the
>whole story, and we have been presented a carefully edited version of the
>tale of Methos & Cassandra.
Look, I am a) not the least bit forgiving, and b) disinclined to balme
people for not being able to see what an Immortal would turn into, 3000
years in the future. At the same time, I do realize that Methos has
genuinely changed and repented. I just don't think it would have affected
the shoice I would have made, were I on hand to help Cassandra in the Bronze
Age. Yes, I would have wholeheartedly endorsed killing Methos. Not so
sadistically, I think, as I think taking pleasure in someone else's pain
would sink her below his level. Quick and painless, that's how killing
should be.
Now, had I done this, or assited in it sbeing done, by the present day,
even if a situation had arisen which turned out badly due to Mehtos's
absence, I wouldn't regret his non-onvolvement, for the simple reason that
it never would have occurred to me that he could have matured into someone
wise enough to be of use to the world. Methos is undoubtedly the exception,
rather than the rule, and not enough, by himself, to change the rules of
what you do to pillaging rapists. Knowing what I know *now*, I would regret
his not being here, but not so mucha s to be unable to live with his death.
The "man" he was *then* deserved death, and that's enough. I can't be
blamed for not being able to predict what he'd become, and neither can
Cassandra. Not now, not ever.
I would also like to say that even knowing this, or with *her* knowing
hits, I wouldn't blame Cassandra for refusing to forgive Methos in the end.
In spite of the values preached in sitcoms, family shows, and other popular
tripe, forgiveness is not an inalienable right. Forgiveness is a rare and
precious gift, and if it is made mandatory, it loses is substance and
meaning. One is entitled to hold a grudge, if truly wronged, as Cassandra
was. Even if Methos has changed, she was excusable in still hating him,
even wanting his head. *I* forgave him, but *she* doesn't have to, and my
opinion doesn't count for nearly as much, if for anything at all. So, if
you wish, swing away, Cassie.
Besides, There Can Be Only One. So there.
>2. Consider the Following Foursome: Duncan, Cassandra, Methos, Amanda. Who
>would win at Monopoly?
Amanda. She'd break in and steal all the money before the game.
>3. People come away with differing opinions of Methos. For some, he lost
>his attraction all together.
Can't say I blame them.
>4. Is, or is not, "Greetings, Brother" the most chillingly perfect
entrance
>line ever made by an Immortal, bad or good? Has any made more of a
statement
>or left a more lasting impression?
<Grayson caught smoking by DM>
"I know: these things'll kill me."
>5. Which is more of a fashion statement: blue face paint or extremely
>acrylic fingernails?
The face paint, I think. After watching this ep, I found myslef eager
to try it out, though I never have. Acrylic nails are only interesting if
sharpened.
Ladeebkwrm
DonnaLetto wrote in message
<20000402235459...@ng-md1.aol.com>...
>>I was gonna respond, but the thunderstorms have
>>started again....
>
>And somewhere in Texas, an Immortal has lost The Game.
>
>A moment of silence, please... <g>
>
>Donna
LOL!
Kristina
Ladeebkwrm
DonnaLetto wrote in message
<20000402234457...@ng-md1.aol.com>...
>>TBird <----- did I convince anyone? :-)
>
>Bravo. Bravely done! I name you honorary captain of the Highlander
University
>Intramural Forensics Society.
Congrats, TBird!!
*pops open the champagne*
>>Those potential contributions are, IMO, worth the forgiveness for past
evils.
>
>Even if those abstract "past evils" were practiced upon you and still haunt
>your dreams at night? Because to Cassandra, and Methos' other victims, and
>Kage's victims, this is not a debate in the abstract, and therefore their
>conclusions are not necessarily the logical ones.
>
>I know there's a certain person in my past who, if he became the next Pope
and
>brought lasting peace to the middle east, I still could not forgive. I
might
>respect those deeds and no longer wish him dead because of the potential
for
>benefit in his future actions, but it still doesn't make "ok" what happened
in
>the past.
Here's where I stick my nose in the conversation. I have a "certain person"
too. But I don't think that forgiveness = what the person did is OK. I've
always seen forgiveness as a letting go. Letting go of the anger, hate,
resentment, those kinds of feelings that are in us toward the people that
did us harm. It still doesn't make it all right, or take away the wrongness
of what they've done. Doesn't even lessen it. It doesn't remove the hurt
and scars of what's happened to us (or to Cassandra, to keep this about HL
<g>) - it's just a release. And I think the person who forgives benefits
more than the person who was forgiven.
Kristina <hoping I haven't taken this too far off track>
Ladeebkwrm
Jerri LaPoint wrote in message ...
>DonnaLetto <donna...@aol.com> wrote
>
>> > Methos grew up, grew out of the Horseman mindset,
>> > and moved forward. He may not be a champion of
>> > Good, he may not be America's sweetheart, but he
>> >deserves to have his changes noticed, and he deserves
>> > to ask forgiveness if he thinks it's appropriate.
>
>> Now, for extra credit, compare and contrast with "Blind Faith."
>
>We don't actually give extra credit at HLU, but your point is taken. How
>many years of absolutely stellar goodness would Methos have to live before
>he even began to make up for the murder and mayhem he planned for execution
>by the Horsemen? How many years should he have spent begging Cassandra's
>forgiveness before she should even consider granting him an audience? I do
>think, however, that it was actually quite decent of him not to form a new
>religion (based on many established religions) and not to try to expiate
his
>past sins by assuming the role of messiah. He could have, you know.
Nah. That'd be too much work for Methos.
Kristina
Ladeebkwrm
NiH wrote in message <8c9481$h3l$1...@husk.cso.niu.edu>...
>Forgiveness is a rare and precious gift, and if it is made mandatory, it
loses is substance and
>meaning. One is entitled to hold a grudge, if truly wronged, as Cassandra
>was.
I really disagree with this. Not the first part of the first sentence, I
think that's true. And I agree that touchy-feely "they did bad, but we're
going to forgive them" forgiveness is cheap and empty. But true forgiveness
that comes from your heart, even if it not willingly at first, (but because
you hold forgiveness as an ideal or believe that your God requires it of
you) that can be a true blessing to everyone it touches.
And remember, I don't think just because something's forgiven means that
what the person did was "ok". Just that the person hurt isn't going to be
filled with anger and hate and resentment toward that person anymore.
I realize we aren't going to agree on this probably, and that's ok with me.
But I couldn't leave that statement unchallenged.
Ladeebkwrm
TBird wrote in message <20000403005730...@nso-bk.aol.com>...
>it's good for me to see other opinions lest I become drowned in Methos
worship.)
You say this like it's a bad thing.............<eg>
*looking squinty-eyed at the Bird*
>After I fly to AZ (in my dreams) to sit around the old kitchen table with
>Kristina just shootin' the $h!t
Tease.
How cool would that be?????????????????????????????????????
Really good post, btw. You somehow always manage to say all the things I
kind of vaguely feel about Methos and can't put into words. Thank you. <g>
Kristina <a girl can dream>
TBird
>OK. I've been storing these up for weeks, and I don't care if the teacher
>says no, I'm asking them anyway.
Far as I know, there is only ONE rule around here about how you can post to
HLU....
>
>6. When the Jimmy scene starts, Methos is loading up his SUV to go
>somewhere - and that somewhere is clearly intended to be permanent. Where?
>Is this in preparation for going to Bordeaux or is he perhaps intending to
>skip town and lose Kronos?
I think he means to skip town and get very invisible.
>7. Why is Kronos not susceptible to The Voice? Does this mean Methos is as
>well?
This is a long standing debate that there is no answer for....
I think that it is somewhat like the Force....it only works on the weaker
minded, the easily distracted or suseptible. Kronos is not that. Caspian and
Silas? I dunno....maybe Silas' skull is just too thick. And Caspain is too
intent on blood shed. Just guessing.
>8. Cassandra is clearly not much of a swords woman for an Immortal, as
>compared to, say, Amanda. Is The Voice the only reason Cassandra's kept her
>head all these centuries?
Someone recently wrote that they thought Cass spent a large amount of time on
holy ground. That makes sense to me.
TBird <----- yup
DonnaLetto
>Horseman mindset, and moved forward. He may not be a champion of Good, he
>may
>not be America's sweetheart, but he deserves to have his changes noticed, and
>he deserves to ask forgiveness if he thinks it's appropriate.
Now, for extra credit, compare and contrast with "Blind Faith."
Donna
{"Okay... he's not the same person. But I don't see how twenty years of doing
good begins to cover his tab...")
TBird
(DonnaLetto) writes:
Okay - I can do this - I can rise to this challenge.
Because I think it comes down to forgiveness and faith.
God- I wish I could remember K'immies names.
Okay.
Blind Faith. Kimmie has perhaps hundreds of years of evil behind him. He has
only about 20 years of decent acts of kindness in recent history.
Methos has a milennia of heinous acts committed by him in the past. And we
don't know when or how he came to change his ways, but it has theoretically
been at least the ten years he was a Watcher, but probably even back to the
Byron ep where he choses not to rape the unconscious Mary Shelley.
Both men have performed heinous acts. Both men (presumably - we only know for
sure about BF Kimmies moment of revelation) have faced themselves down and made
a conscious decision to change.
Then we reach the present, when they are now being judged for the heinous acts
performed in the distand past. And this is where I think we have to allow
faith and forgiveness into the picture.
We have to have faith that their current motives are true and positive. We
have consider forgiveness of their pasts, as we weigh what their future holds
as men who are repentent (to some extent) or at least willing to accept that
they were monsters in the past who now want to change their ways.
To judge them soley on the past misdeeds, however heinous, is to look only at a
small part of the picture, IMO. The larger picture includes more balance, more
willingness to look at their potential value to the future.
How many more times will Methos save Macs neck?
How many more times will BF Kimmie be able to successfully start charitable
organizations that actually make a positive impact on humanity?
Is it worth throwing these portentials away because of ancient history?
To live without forgiveness, IMO, is a cold way to live. To not be able to see
change in others, or to be able to change and adapt onesownself...it's almost a
waste of what life has to offer. Take Kronos for example. No change. Waste
of air. Whack him. BF Kimmie - lots of change, positive impact, no longer a
waste of air, he now has something to contribute. Those potential
contributions are, IMO, worth the forgiveness for past evils.
TBird <----- did I convince anyone? :-)
schatze
TBird <sixt4...@aol.comedancing> wrote in message
news:20000402204350...@nso-fg.aol.com...
> "Athers" <Rachel...@tesco.net> writes:
>
> >OK. I've been storing these up for weeks, and I don't care if the teacher
> >says no, I'm asking them anyway.
>
> Far as I know, there is only ONE rule around here about how you can post
to
> HLU....
Snippity:
> >7. Why is Kronos not susceptible to The Voice? Does this mean Methos is
as
> >well?
> This is a long standing debate that there is no answer for....
> I think that it is somewhat like the Force....it only works on the weaker
> minded, the easily distracted or suseptible. Kronos is not that. Caspian
and
> Silas? I dunno....maybe Silas' skull is just too thick. And Caspain is
too
> intent on blood shed. Just guessing.
I like this 'cuz I remember it working on Duncan! : )
>
> >8. Cassandra is clearly not much of a swords woman for an Immortal, as
> >compared to, say, Amanda. Is The Voice the only reason Cassandra's kept
her
> >head all these centuries?
>
> Someone recently wrote that they thought Cass spent a large amount of time
on
> holy ground. That makes sense to me.
>
> TBird <----- yup
I never watched The Raven, but I never saw Amanda so _wonderful_ with a
sword.
schatze -------> Cassandra joined a Holy Order: Our Lady of.... etc. : )
James
James
The Man in Black
TBird
<moos...@nohotmail.spamcom> writes:
>> >7. Why is Kronos not susceptible to The Voice? Does this mean Methos is
>as
>> >well?
>> This is a long standing debate that there is no answer for....
>> I think that it is somewhat like the Force....it only works on the weaker
>> minded, the easily distracted or suseptible. Kronos is not that. Caspian
>and
>> Silas? I dunno....maybe Silas' skull is just too thick. And Caspain is
>too
>> intent on blood shed. Just guessing.
>
>
>I like this 'cuz I remember it working on Duncan! : )
Well...he is less focused... he's always so conflicted about everything - thus
making him more susceptible.
TBird <---- doesn't think DM is dimwitted....just not totally focused....
TBird
(James) writes:
THANK YOU!
TBird <---- hopeless victim of Mommy Alzheimers
Jerri LaPoint
> Wrong fight - Methos dumps Cassandra off a bridge
> *then* breaks up Mac and Kronos' fight with the
> Molotov cocktails. (Sorry - just being pickey)
I always love it when people get picky.
Dianne
"Jerri LaPoint" wrote
All about Comes a Horseman for this HU question.
Thanks Jerri,
This, and Rev6:8 are quite possibly my favourite episodes.
I have not joined in yet but I have taken great delight in reading
everyone's contributions. I am looking forward to this one immensely.
Dianne*prepared to be enthralled*
Jerri LaPoint
> > Methos grew up, grew out of the Horseman mindset,
> > and moved forward. He may not be a champion of
> > Good, he may not be America's sweetheart, but he
> >deserves to have his changes noticed, and he deserves
> > to ask forgiveness if he thinks it's appropriate.
> Now, for extra credit, compare and contrast with "Blind Faith."
We don't actually give extra credit at HLU, but your point is taken. How
many years of absolutely stellar goodness would Methos have to live before
he even began to make up for the murder and mayhem he planned for execution
by the Horsemen? How many years should he have spent begging Cassandra's
forgiveness before she should even consider granting him an audience? I do
think, however, that it was actually quite decent of him not to form a new
religion (based on many established religions) and not to try to expiate his
past sins by assuming the role of messiah. He could have, you know.
Maggie
started again.... Maybe tomorrow.
Maggie
Kathy Morey wrote ...
> Jerri LaPoint wrote:
>
> > Questions.
> > 1. People get all confused about Cassandra, whether she should have
long
> > ago forgiven Methos for keeping her slave all those years ago; whether
she
> > was nursing her rage and resentment way past time she should have let it
all
> > go. Some people think her very hatred of Methos is undeserved, and that
> > she's relatively evil herownself, especially if she can't tell that
Methos
> > Has Changed and is no longer Death on a Horse. Some people think Methos
> > should have been tied down by his nads and Cassandra been given a knife
with
> > which to extract his vitals or pretties, as she chose. Weigh in with
> > carefully considered opinions, keeping in mind that we're not seeing the
> > whole story, and we have been presented a carefully edited version of
the
> > tale of Methos & Cassandra.
>
> First, I don't think Cassandra spent the last however-many-thousands of
years
> being consumed with rage and revenge. I think she had managed to put her
past
> in the past and live her life, saving cute young boys who then grew into
hunky,
> gorgeous men who were destined for Great Things. But to be suddenly faced
with
> the knowledge that your enslavers are alive after you had thought them
dead for
> most of those however-many-thousands of years, and then to come
face-to-face
> with one of them, who has insinuated himself into the life of *your*
> saved-gorgeous-guy-destined-etc.!!! I think the shock overwhelmed her,
and
> brought all that hatred and rage that she never got to have closure about
> surging back to the surface.
>
> > 2. Consider the Following Foursome: Duncan, Cassandra, Methos, Amanda.
Who
> > would win at Monopoly?
>
> <snerk>
>
> I can't even *begin* to try to logically, rationally, insanely, or even
> "sillily" figure this out!
>
> > 3. People come away with differing opinions of Methos. For some, he
lost
> > his attraction all together. For others, the image of Kiss-Me-Methos was
> > equally as attractive as the image of Evil Duncan MacLeod was in earlier
> > episodes. Could a common, yet ever-so-attractive Evil Immortal like
Grayson
> > ever hope to compete? You may take into consideration such attributes
and
> > accoutrements as refusal to shave, wearing an earring, choice of pants,
hair
> > length and style, decorating oneself with blue paint, being a snappy
> > dresser, manner, and attitude.
>
> I'm in the "run the other way - eeew" camp on this one. Physical
attractiveness
> by itself, even in the huge quantities possessed by EDM and Bronze Age
Methos,
> just isn't enough to overcome the "eeew" factor.
>
> > 4. Is, or is not, "Greetings, Brother" the most chillingly perfect
entrance
> > line ever made by an Immortal, bad or good? Has any made more of a
statement
> > or left a more lasting impression?
>
> Yes. No.
>
> > 5. Which is more of a fashion statement: blue face paint or extremely
> > acrylic fingernails?
>
DonnaLetto
Bravo. Bravely done! I name you honorary captain of the Highlander University
Intramural Forensics Society.
>Those potential
>contributions are, IMO, worth the forgiveness for past evils.
Even if those abstract "past evils" were practiced upon you and still haunt
your dreams at night? Because to Cassandra, and Methos' other victims, and
Kage's victims, this is not a debate in the abstract, and therefore their
conclusions are not necessarily the logical ones.
I know there's a certain person in my past who, if he became the next Pope and
brought lasting peace to the middle east, I still could not forgive. I might
respect those deeds and no longer wish him dead because of the potential for
benefit in his future actions, but it still doesn't make "ok" what happened in
the past.
>>Both men (presumably - we only know for
>>sure about BF Kimmies moment of >>revelation) have faced themselves down and
made
>>a conscious decision to change.
I'm not convinced there was a defining moment and a conscious decision to
change on Methos' part like there was for Kage. Perhaps there was a conscious
decision to "survive," and in the current climate that means he behaves and
keeps his head down? But, as illustrated in "Not To Be," if the climate
changed, I feel certain so would Methos.
>>We have consider forgiveness of their
>>pasts, as we weigh what their future
>>holds as men who are repentent (to
>>some extent) or at least willing to
>>accept that they were monsters in
>>the past who now want to change
>>their ways.
And I think this is where we really differ. Because, unlike Kage, I see no
"repentence" in Methos. Sure, he's come to terms with who he was. He expects
MacLeod to "accept it," but I think it's key that he never asks for
forgiveness, not from Mac and not from Cassandra. He never "repents." And he
brushes it off blythely as "one of a thousand regrets." Not a sin. Not an
evil. Just a "regret."
Kage has made a conscious decision and effort to "do good." And, despite the
good that he's doing now, he's still willing to die for what he's done in the
past.
Methos, on the other hand, while he has evolved in 3000 years into someone more
civilized, is not necessarily going out of his way to be a "good guy." And
he'll do whatever it takes to keep his head, even if it's demanded in payment
for what he's done in the past. He will still, apparently, even risk the lives
of an entire city -- sure, with the fingers-crossed hope that maybe Duncan will
get to that fountain in time, but amazingly secure with the reality that,
should Duncan happen to fail, thousands of people will die at his hand. Again.
>>How many more times will Methos save Macs neck?
Probably until it stops being useful to him <G>
There's a line in the Armageddon script that sort of sums up my personal
wrestlings with this whole forgiveness/does-the-good-outweigh-the-evil topic.
It's about Darius, but I think it applies to Kage and Methos as well.
KRONOS
(to Fr. Robert)
Do you pray for your sainted Father Darius? Because he was a murderer, you
know. And a rapist. And a defiler of your holy places. And then one day he
became a priest, and whitewashed his evil soul. Does that suddenly make it
all...
(dripping sarcasm)
..."okay"?
(If you have the foreign of "Armageddon," you may notice that Richard and Val
changed the last line to "But the stain still lies there underneath," but that
works, too.)
I'm definitely not saying I have any actual answers here. I'm just grateful
for the chance to discuss it.
Donna
DonnaLetto
>started again....
And somewhere in Texas, an Immortal has lost The Game.
TBird
ROTFLOL....
That must mean that Immortals come to Colorado every summer to do battle in the
afternoons between 3 and 6pm......
TBird <---- loves those CO summer lightening storms and the incredible electric
smell in the air just after they pass....
TBird
>>Those potential
>>contributions are, IMO, worth the forgiveness for past evils.
donna...@aol.com (DonnaLetto) writes:
>
>Even if those abstract "past evils" were practiced upon you and still haunt
>your dreams at night? Because to Cassandra, and Methos' other victims, and
>Kage's victims, this is not a debate in the abstract, and therefore their
>conclusions are not necessarily the logical ones.
>
So Methos should let Cassandra kill him because she can't get over it?
I think there has to be a point where she takes responsibilty for healing
herself, whether justice is served or not; whether she achieves revenge or not.
If they haunt my dreams, it's because I let them.
I've had my share of nightmares...but I believe it's up to me to banish them
and to heal their cause within myself. That's all I have power over, myself.
No one else can heal me. No one else can soothe me. Ultimately I am
responsible for my own happiness.
donna...@aol.com (DonnaLetto) writes:
>I know there's a certain person in my past who, if he became the next Pope
>and
>brought lasting peace to the middle east, I still could not forgive. I might
>respect those deeds and no longer wish him dead because of the potential for
>benefit in his future actions, but it still doesn't make "ok" what happened
>in the past.
That's all I ask of Cassandra. It would be nice in a rainbow sunshiny world if
personal forgiveness could be achieved, but it's not realistic. All I ask is
that she acknowledge that he is a different man now. (When I mention
forgiveness...it's not specific to Cass...if that makes sense.... it's a big
picture kinda forgiveness.) If he was still out to murder, rape and pillage,
go for it - whack his head off - poke it off with the acrylic fingernails....
But as long as he is not out to murder, as long as he is not out to continue
practicing evil, and as long as he demonstrates his remorse and willingness to
act in ways contrary to his past - let him live. Others need him
Here's your challenge. <eg> What about Steven Keane and Duncan? (Like that
hasn't been done before)
donna...@aol.com (DonnaLetto) writes:
>I'm not convinced there was a defining moment and a conscious decision to
>change on Methos' part like there was for Kage. Perhaps there was a
>conscious
>decision to "survive," and in the current climate that means he behaves and
>keeps his head down? But, as illustrated in "Not To Be," if the climate
>changed, I feel certain so would Methos.
I don't know if there's adefining moment for Methos either ... but
<sucking air in through teeth and cringing>
Not meaning to step on toes...but this is the one part of Not to Be I have
never been able to defend. Shomeret and I debated all the AU characters when
she was here, and I really defended that AU people, even *maybe* getting
Shomeret to see how Joe *might* end up hopeless in a wheelchair, and how Amanda
might end up as a black widow without Duncan. But Methos - he's just too smart
to have ended up where he did in the AU, and his lifes history is too long. He
was already different in the Byron ep, and was able to stand up for what was
right at that point, WITHOUT Mac around. So it's very hard for me to see why
he'd be involved with an idiot woman, much less reveal himself to her. My
point being, that I don't think Methos is really that easily influenced by
climate. He was already on a path. I think he would have tried to find ways
to kill Kronos no matter what universe he was in.
<hopes Donna doesn't hate me now><g>
donna...@aol.com (DonnaLetto) writes:
>And I think this is where we really differ. Because, unlike Kage, I see no
>"repentence" in Methos. Sure, he's come to terms with who he was. He
>expects
>MacLeod to "accept it," but I think it's key that he never asks for
>forgiveness, not from Mac and not from Cassandra. He never "repents." And
>he
>brushes it off blythely as "one of a thousand regrets." Not a sin. Not an
>evil. Just a "regret."
<cringing again>
My god - how could he ask for forgiveness? How does one ask for forgiveness
for crimes of that magnitude? He wants to live. There's no way to reconcile
his will to live with repentence for the past horrors he has inflicted. He'd
have to throw himself in front of a train a la Mikey. After thousands of
years, I think the best he can do is live with it, and hope others can accept
it, and yes, blythely write it off as "one of a thousand regrets".....because
to face it head on...to truly deal with it.... He'd have to give up his will to
live. The best he can do is try to fix what is happening here and now. Any
more than that would have to be just overwhelming.
I know. I know I am horrendously biased. But I can't just forget how Methos
stood by Duncan even as Duncan threw him across the church, and how he tried to
save Mac from Macsownself *and* Steven Keane, and how Methos did everything
possible to set Mac up to be in the winning position against Kronos - no matter
how desperate those actions were. I can't forget what he did for Alexa. I
can't forget how he tried to save everyone from Kristin.
donna...@aol.com (DonnaLetto) writes:
>Kage has made a conscious decision and effort to "do good." And, despite the
>good that he's doing now, he's still willing to die for what he's done in the
>past.
>
>Methos, on the other hand, while he has evolved in 3000 years into someone
>more
>civilized, is not necessarily going out of his way to be a "good guy." And
>he'll do whatever it takes to keep his head, even if it's demanded in payment
>for what he's done in the past. He will still, apparently, even risk the
>lives
>of an entire city -- sure, with the fingers-crossed hope that maybe Duncan
>will
>get to that fountain in time, but amazingly secure with the reality that,
>should Duncan happen to fail, thousands of people will die at his hand.
>Again.
Ouch. <g>
<resisting the urge to stand on chair and yell "DONNA!!!! Just be nice to
Methos!!! He's doing his best!!!!" LOL>
No - Methos didn't start a home for unwed mothers and children. (I love that
phrase) No - Methos didn't single handedly work for world peace. No - Methos
isn't working overtly for some way to end world hunger.
I think those actions would seem hollow and trite to him if he was trying to
repent. Again, I think what he did is too big to deal with. Maybe it's why
Kronos and the others never changed....it would be impossible to reconcile any
new benevolant character with who they had been. The best Methos can do is
just to survive.
(God - I hope my Methos soapbox isn't boring. I hope you keep talking to
me.... It's interesting to hear your opinions. It really is. I really value
it and I hope my opposing views aren't so offensive that you never reply again.
I always enjoyed my Methos debates when Edie was around....it's good for me to
see other opinions lest I become drowned in Methos worship.)
donna...@aol.com (DonnaLetto) writes:
TBird:
>>>How many more times will Methos save Macs neck?
>
>Probably until it stops being useful to him <G>
Ouch again!!! <g>
>
>There's a line in the Armageddon script that sort of sums up my personal
>wrestlings with this whole forgiveness/does-the-good-outweigh-the-evil topic.
Oh - now that's just CHEATING!!! LOL!
>
>It's about Darius, but I think it applies to Kage and Methos as well.
>
> KRONOS
> (to Fr. Robert)
>Do you pray for your sainted Father Darius? Because he was a murderer, you
>know. And a rapist. And a defiler of your holy places. And then one day he
>became a priest, and whitewashed his evil soul. Does that suddenly make it
>all...
> (dripping sarcasm)
>..."okay"?
>
>(If you have the foreign of "Armageddon," you may notice that Richard and Val
>changed the last line to "But the stain still lies there underneath," but
>that
>works, too.)
Oh dear...now I'll just have to watch again...through your eyes.... shucks.
<eg>
>
>I'm definitely not saying I have any actual answers here. I'm just grateful
>for the chance to discuss it.
I know. And I am too. Because although you may not have the actual answers
(who does really at this point in the ...errrr... game?) I do value your
opinion as an insider viewpoint on Methos, in addition to just a regular old
ATHer. <eg spreading across face> Which is not to say that I think it's
valid. :-Ş <heh heh heh>
After I fly to AZ (in my dreams) to sit around the old kitchen table with
Kristina just shootin' the $h!t, I wanna fly to wherever you are and sit around
discussing HL, Methos, and all the cheaty little things you may or may not
know....I'll even bring the wine. <G> Just because I can really hear what you
are saying without feeling my hackles rise.....and that makes for good
discussion....IMO. I love good discussion.
TBird <----- can't wait for Legacy....if only for the generic version of
listening to Donna and company..... <----- also...apologies for typos; when I
ramble on like this it's too tiresome to edit myself.....
TBird
<ladee...@aol.com> writes:
>Here's where I stick my nose in the conversation. I have a "certain person"
>too. But I don't think that forgiveness = what the person did is OK. I've
>always seen forgiveness as a letting go. Letting go of the anger, hate,
>resentment, those kinds of feelings that are in us toward the people that
>did us harm. It still doesn't make it all right, or take away the wrongness
>of what they've done. Doesn't even lessen it. It doesn't remove the hurt
>and scars of what's happened to us (or to Cassandra, to keep this about HL
><g>) - it's just a release. And I think the person who forgives benefits
>more than the person who was forgiven.
>
>Kristina <hoping I haven't taken this too far off track>
No - you said exactly what I meant about my "bigger picture kinda forgiveness".
Thanks.
TBird <---- grateful someone is more articulate than I....
TBird
<ladee...@aol.com> writes:
>Really good post, btw. You somehow always manage to say all the things I
>kind of vaguely feel about Methos and can't put into words. Thank you. <g>
You're welcome.....
It only comes out when I am challenged well...and Donna provided a clear
challenge with good arguments. The rest of the time I just make things up as I
go along....
TBird <--- inspired by clones to type 10 times:
drowning in Methos worship is a GOOD thing
drowning in Methos worship is a GOOD thing
drowning in Methos worship is a GOOD thing
drowning in Methos worship is a GOOD thing
drowning in Methos worship is a GOOD thing
drowning in Methos worship is a GOOD thing
drowning in Methos worship is a GOOD thing
drowning in Methos worship is a GOOD thing
drowning in Methos worship is a GOOD thing
drowning in Methos worship is a GOOD thing
TBird
>>wrestlings with this whole forgiveness/does-the-good-outweigh-the-evil
>topic.
>
>Oh - now that's just CHEATING!!! LOL!
Oops - I misread this - I thought you meant it was in the scripte but not the
final version.
Many apologies!
TBird <---- going to bed now...
Jette Goldie
TBird wrote
>
I wonder.
He haunts her nightmares. Is she one of the thousands who haunt
his?
Jette Goldie
jette....@u.genie.co.uk
HISTORICON 2001 - Setting the Standards for the Next Millennium
5th & 6th May 2001, Edinburgh, Scotland UK
http://you.genie.co.uk/jette.goldie/
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/historicon
DonnaLetto
TBird challenged:
>What about Steven Keane and Duncan?
Which was, of course, the reason for that ep in the first place -- to create an
alternate boy scout to confront Duncan with the evils lurking in his own past.
Duncan, like Kage (and I suspect like Darius would, had the show been given the
opportunity to explore Darius further) acknowledged his past deeds, was
remorseful, and was willing to take responsibility for them and pay whatever
price needed to be paid. (And of course, it was Methos who was using every
dirty trick in the book to circumvent responsibility.)
><sucking air in through teeth and cringing>
>Not meaning to step on toes...but this is the one part of Not to Be I have
>never been able to defend. But Methos - he's just too
>smart
>to have ended up where he did in the AU, and his lifes history is too long.
>He
>was already different in the Byron ep, and was able to stand up for what was
>right at that point, WITHOUT Mac around. So it's very hard for me to see why
>he'd be involved with an idiot woman, much less reveal himself to her. My
>point being, that I don't think Methos is really that easily influenced by
>climate. He was already on a path. I think he would have tried to find ways
>to kill Kronos no matter what universe he was in.
><hopes Donna doesn't hate me now><g>
Nope, just agreeing that we'll always disagree on this. Two things influence
who Methos is at any given time -- how best to keep his head attached to his
shoulders, and who is the most charismatic light in the room at any given time.
I find Methos is decidedly charisma-trophic. With Byron, he was living a life
of debauchery (or as much debauchery as can be implied on what the French
considered a kid's show <g>) -- a whirlwind of opium and alcohol and sex and
beastiality and overwrought passion and senseless and sudden violence. That he
has second thoughts in one particular instance about raping a woman he has
certain feelings for while she is stoned and unconscious and sharing her with
Byron does not necessarily define him as a "good man." (And his callous
behavior several years earlier with Charlotte won't nominate him for sainthood,
either.)
Take away the whole Watcher war and the whole Jillian plot from the AU, and
just picture a world without Duncan MacLeod where he's been hiding out as
mild-mannered Adam Pierson for a decade, and then suddenly "Greetings,
Brother." He'd be a Horseman so fast it would make your head spin, because
it's preferrable to dying. And at first, he'd convince himself that he was
only pretending, playing the role Kronos wanted him to play in order to
survive. But you know what? He *is* good at it. "Don't tell me you haven't
missed it" -- face it, Methos was so tempted in that scene in "Comes A
Horseman" he could taste it. I don't know if he'd ever realize exactly when he
stopped pretending...
If you don't understand what I'm getting at, may I highly recommend
"Mothernight" by Kurt Vonnegut, if you've never read it. ("Be careful what you
pretend to be, because we are what we pretend to be...")
>My god - how could he ask for forgiveness? How does one ask for forgiveness
>for crimes of that magnitude? He wants to live. There's no way to reconcile
>his will to live with repentence for the past horrors he has inflicted. He'd
>have to throw himself in front of a train a la Mikey. After thousands of
>years, I think the best he can do is live with it, and hope others can accept
>it, and yes, blythely write it off as "one of a thousand regrets".....because
>to face it head on...to truly deal with it.... He'd have to give up his will
>to
>live. The best he can do is try to fix what is happening here and now. Any
>more than that would have to be just overwhelming.
>I know. I know I am horrendously biased.
Really? Hadn't noticed...<g>
I know you want to believe the best... You want to believe that deep down
inside he's one of the good guys... That his motives are pure... That at
heart he's kindness and love and compassion for his fellowman...
I just don't happen to agree with you.
I think he is what he is... not good... not evil... these terms are meaningless
to him. He left all that crap behind with Socrates. He is whatever it is
expedient to be in whatever role he has chosen to play at the given moment.
He's constantly reinventing himself -- he's probably been 500 or a thousand
different guys in 5000 years.
Sure, the guy he's playing today may be a mild-mannered scholar, or "just a
guy" who likes his beer. And this time next year, he could just as easily be
the dictator of a third world country, if that's which way the wind blew him.
(Although, actually, that's much too high profile for him... but I'm hoping you
get the basic idea). (Actually, given the charisma-trophic theory, he'd
probably be second-in-command to the dictator of a third world country <g>)
Survival and expediency. Methosian ethics in a nutshell.
But I can't just forget how Methos
>stood by Duncan even as Duncan threw him across the church, and how he tried
>to
>save Mac from Macsownself *and* Steven Keane, and how Methos did everything
>possible to set Mac up to be in the winning position against Kronos
While also doing everything possible to set up Kronos to be in a winning
position, too, just in case things didn't work out...
>- no
>matter
>how desperate those actions were. I can't forget what he did for Alexa.
I'm not saying he's not passionately possessive of the things he's declared as
his. I'm not saying he might not even risk his own neck for something that's
his (although, you may have noticed, that's only a risk if his plans go awry,
isn't it? <g> You're not seeing him going up against Keane without both a gun
and a hidden knife.) Once he's decided to care about something or someone,
he's there 100%.
I'm just saying this does not automatically make him a hero. This does not make
him a good guy.
(You don't think Dr. Evil would walk through fire to save Mr. Bigglesworth? <g>
OK, an extreme example, granted...)
>I can't forget how he tried to save everyone from Kristin.
Only after he was unable to manipulate someone else into doing the dirty work
for him. And I'm convinced there was nothing altruistic about his need to get
rid of Kristin. There was something personal going on there. He wasn't
"saving everybody," I think he was getting his own paybacks for something. And
he was really hoping he could just sit back and watch the fireworks while
someone else actually got his hands bloody. ("Get someone in" I believe is the
phrase...)
>>He will still, apparently, even risk the
>>lives
>>of an entire city -- sure, with the fingers-crossed hope that maybe Duncan
>>will
>>get to that fountain in time, but amazingly secure with the reality that,
>>should Duncan happen to fail, thousands of people will die at his hand.
>>Again.
>
>Ouch. <g>
><resisting the urge to stand on chair and yell "DONNA!!!! Just be nice to
>Methos!!! He's doing his best!!!!" LOL>
Of course he is, "He's the master."
[ MACLEOD
(to Methos)
You set me up!
KRONOS
He's the master.
(I almost cried when Kronos' response got cut from Rev 6:8. -- it seemed to sum
up everything so well...)]
>I think those actions would seem hollow and trite to him if he was trying to
>repent.
But since he's not, it's not really a problem, is it? <g> (I saw an opening
too good to pass up...)
>it's good for me to
>see other opinions lest I become drowned in Methos worship.)
Yeah, well, I'm off to find some hip-waders. The drool is getting a little
deep up here near the altar. <G>
>Oh dear...now I'll just have to watch again...through your eyes.... shucks.
><eg>
Just remember: good guys are boring. Why in the world would you want him to be
a good guy?
Donna
DonnaLetto
>his?
I think that's giving her much more importance than she ever had to him. I
doubt he'd given her another thought from the day he'd found a replacement for
her after she ran off ('cause somebody's got to cool his wine in the river,
it's not like he was going to do it himself) until there she was in Mac's dojo.
Donna
Cherna
> 6. When the Jimmy scene starts, Methos is loading up his SUV to go
> somewhere - and that somewhere is clearly intended to be permanent. Where?
> Is this in preparation for going to Bordeaux or is he perhaps intending to
> skip town and lose Kronos?
I truly don't think Methos has a specific destination in mind. Perhaps
he feels he's risked/revealed too much to DM, and therefore needs to
retreat, perhaps to gain perspective. He could also be ready to go with
what he knows (aka Kronos & the Horsemen), versus the unknown (DM,
Cassandra, and how it will all play out). This is an Immortal who values
_his_ life, after all. He will do what it takes.
> 7. Why is Kronos not susceptible to The Voice? Does this mean Methos is as
> well?
Some are succeptible, some aren't. I don't think the voice would work on
everyone. Betcha there are mortals it won't work on either. If the voice
worked on Methos, we'd have seen an inkling of that before now.
> 8. Cassandra is clearly not much of a swords woman for an Immortal, as
> compared to, say, Amanda. Is The Voice the only reason Cassandra's kept her
> head all these centuries?
Just because we haven't seen her fight doesn't mean she can't. Strength
isn't everything. Survival counts too.
::thinking of Amanda's sword skills in HL:TR when she wacked Korda and
rolling my eyes:: Uh huh, yea, right. I _really_ believe she could take
him and win... <smirk>
Cherna
Non semper ea sunt quae videntur
Terra Incognita http://www.angelfire.com/mi/cherna/
Jerri LaPoint
> Excuse me, but YOU COMPLETELY LEFT
> OUT THE KOREN FLASHBACK!!!
For what it's worth, I leave out a lot of stuff. This is a synopsis, not a
script. If you think the Koren flashback is of major importance, you are
welcome to make comment upon it. Personally, I think of it as a throwaway.
It just lets us know that Koren/Kronos and Duncan "have a past".
Dianne
"Jerri LaPoint" wrote ..
> NiH <n...@niu.edu> wrote
>
> > Excuse me, but YOU COMPLETELY LEFT
> > OUT THE KOREN FLASHBACK!!!
>
> For what it's worth, I leave out a lot of stuff. This is a synopsis, not a
> script. If you think the Koren flashback is of major importance, you are
> welcome to make comment upon it. Personally, I think of it as a throwaway.
> It just lets us know that Koren/Kronos and Duncan "have a past".
> Jerri
> --
DM's wild west outfit. I *like* that one!
Dianne*shallow....me?*
Susan Stansfield
In article <HdLF4.15053$9m6.6...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Jerri
wrote:
>1. People get all confused about Cassandra, whether she should have long
>ago forgiven Methos for keeping her slave all those years ago; whether
>she
>was nursing her rage and resentment way past time she should have let it
>all
>go. Some people think her very hatred of Methos is undeserved, and that
>she's relatively evil herownself, especially if she can't tell that Methos
>Has Changed and is no longer Death on a Horse. Some people think Methos
>should have been tied down by his nads and Cassandra been given a knife
>with
>which to extract his vitals or pretties, as she chose. Weigh in with
>carefully considered opinions, keeping in mind that we're not seeing the
>whole story, and we have been presented a carefully edited version of the
>tale of Methos & Cassandra.
I don't blame Cassandra for her reaction to Methos when she first saw him. She
had good reason to hate him. OTOH, I also think it's time for her to let go.
Maybe she's started to do just that. However, she'll never completely get over
it.
>2. Consider the Following Foursome: Duncan, Cassandra, Methos, Amanda.
>Who
>would win at Monopoly?
Hmmmm....most likely Duncan, maybe Amanda if she got lucky or cheated. <g>
>3. People come away with differing opinions of Methos. For some, he lost
>his attraction all together. For others, the image of Kiss-Me-Methos was
>equally as attractive as the image of Evil Duncan MacLeod was in earlier
>episodes. Could a common, yet ever-so-attractive Evil Immortal like Grayson
>ever hope to compete? You may take into consideration such attributes and
>accoutrements as refusal to shave, wearing an earring, choice of pants,
>hair
>length and style, decorating oneself with blue paint, being a snappy
>dresser, manner, and attitude.
EDM and BA Methos are both fascinating to watch. But certain k'immies, like
Grayson and Xavier, had style. Yeah, I think those kinds of k'immies could
compete.
>4. Is, or is not, "Greetings, Brother" the most chillingly perfect entrance
>line ever made by an Immortal, bad or good? Has any made more of a statement
>or left a more lasting impression?
Definitely one of the best entrance lines in the series.
>5. Which is more of a fashion statement: blue face paint or extremely
>acrylic fingernails?
I have to admit I can't decide. <g>
Susan
Susan Stansfield
In article <sRMF4.15379$9m6.6...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "John
wrote:
>I was Death, Death on a Moose
LOL! I _had_ to comment on this one! John, did I ever tell you that I love
your Moose sigs?
Susan
Susan Stansfield
In article <r3NF4.27914$Ig.1...@news1.rdc1.tx.home.com>, "schatze" wrote:
>schatze -------> Kinda disappointed the teacher didn't ask any Stick Boy
>questions
Oh, yeah! I forgot about Stick Boy. That website about him is hilarious!
Susan
--will check to see if she still has the URL
Jette Goldie
DonnaLetto wrote in message
<20000403035054...@ng-cg1.aol.com>...
What I mean is - what haunts Methos's nightmares, in the wee
sma' hours when his subconscious starts to rerun his life and
show him again what he is not proud of?
We all have our *regrets*. With good luck and a good life
most of us have nothing worse than "I didn't say goodbye
to her when it was the last time we'd meet" or "I didn't
study hard enough for that exam - I could have passed and
my life now would be different".
If Methos is reviewing his life in those dark hours that hit
us all, are his *regrets* thinks that he would change or
do differently? Is Cassandra one of the thousands of
such regrets that torment him in his darkest hours? Just
one insignificant part - yet identifiable - of those thousands?
That was what I took from his comment "one of a thousand
regrets".......she wasn't =that= important because he had
done and regretted far more and far worse.
seabeast
Kristina said:
But I don't think that forgiveness = what the person did is OK. I've
> >always seen forgiveness as a letting go. Letting go of the anger,
hate,
> >resentment, those kinds of feelings that are in us toward the people
that
> >did us harm. It still doesn't make it all right, or take away the
wrongness
> >of what they've done. Doesn't even lessen it. It doesn't remove the
hurt
> >and scars of what's happened to us (or to Cassandra, to keep this
about HL
> ><g>) - it's just a release.
>
Exactly!
which puts Methos` "Thousand regrets" into context; I thought it
implied that he had forgiven himself, no longer felt the need for
penitence and angst. In fact such self flagelation may be irrelevant
to his exsistance, things happen for good or ill, there is rejoicing or
there is regret, that`s all.
Of course it helps that Methos is a mixture of all kinds of
social/religious customs.
E
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Ladeebkwrm
>No - you said exactly what I meant about my "bigger picture kinda
>forgiveness".
>
>Thanks.
>
>TBird <---- grateful someone is more articulate than I....
LOL! And yet, somewhere else I thanked you for being more articulate about
Methos than I am.
We're a good team. <g>
Kristina
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Agreement is overrated, and far too boring anyway" ;) - waylayer
AIM: LadeeBookwrm
IM (AOL only): ladeebkwrm
X-No-Archive: yes
DonnaLetto
>> compared to, say, Amanda. Is The Voice the only reason Cassandra's kept
>her
>> head all these centuries?
>
>Just because we haven't seen her fight doesn't mean she can't. Strength
>isn't everything. Survival counts too.
Plus, the Voice isn't her only trick. Remember the wolf and the disappearing
gingerbread house...
Donna
Ladeebkwrm
>DM's wild west outfit. I *like* that one!
>
>Dianne*shallow....me?*
Mind if I be shallow right along with you here? And the way he looks when he's
sitting on the porch of that building loading the gun....wow!
DonnaLetto
>sma' hours when his subconscious starts to rerun his life and
>show him again what he is not proud of?
>
>We all have our *regrets*. With good luck and a good life
>most of us have nothing worse than "I didn't say goodbye
>to her when it was the last time we'd meet" or "I didn't
>study hard enough for that exam - I could have passed and
>my life now would be different".
>
>If Methos is reviewing his life in those dark hours that hit
>us all, are his *regrets* thinks that he would change or
>do differently? Is Cassandra one of the thousands of
>such regrets that torment him in his darkest hours? Just
>one insignificant part - yet identifiable - of those thousands?
>That was what I took from his comment "one of a thousand
>regrets".......she wasn't =that= important because he had
>done and regretted far more and far worse.
I think he had this period of his life, where the ghosts haunted him and he
agonized over the guilt -- probably more than once. Might have even had
something to do with why he was on a boat with Irish monks in the middle of the
7th C, who knows. But I think right now, he *thinks* (at least) he's come to
terms with it. Of course, the events of Horsemen/Rev could have stirred all
that up again -- we don't know where he went after Archangel, after all... <g>
Donna
Valerie Sawyer
That's the type of forgiveness spoken about in Scripture. And you're right, it
doesn't mean you pretend that the wrong never occurred - you just "let it go".
Because, at some point, all of us have done something as well that we want to be
forgiven of, right? Christ said...."Forgive others as I have forgiven you".
That's the main focus - we forgive others because we know there are things that
we need forgiveness for as well. Sorry, not trying to preach- just trying to
perhaps add a little clarity to the subject a little. :)
Ladeebkwrm wrote:
> DonnaLetto wrote in message
> <20000402234457...@ng-md1.aol.com>...
> >>TBird <----- did I convince anyone? :-)
> >
> >Bravo. Bravely done! I name you honorary captain of the Highlander
> University
> >Intramural Forensics Society.
>
> Congrats, TBird!!
>
> *pops open the champagne*
>
> >>Those potential contributions are, IMO, worth the forgiveness for past
> evils.
> >
> >Even if those abstract "past evils" were practiced upon you and still haunt
> >your dreams at night? Because to Cassandra, and Methos' other victims, and
> >Kage's victims, this is not a debate in the abstract, and therefore their
> >conclusions are not necessarily the logical ones.
> >
> >I know there's a certain person in my past who, if he became the next Pope
> and
> >brought lasting peace to the middle east, I still could not forgive. I
> might
> >respect those deeds and no longer wish him dead because of the potential
> for
> >benefit in his future actions, but it still doesn't make "ok" what happened
> in
> >the past.
>
> Here's where I stick my nose in the conversation. I have a "certain person"
> too. But I don't think that forgiveness = what the person did is OK. I've
> always seen forgiveness as a letting go. Letting go of the anger, hate,
> resentment, those kinds of feelings that are in us toward the people that
> did us harm. It still doesn't make it all right, or take away the wrongness
> of what they've done. Doesn't even lessen it. It doesn't remove the hurt
> and scars of what's happened to us (or to Cassandra, to keep this about HL
> <g>) - it's just a release. And I think the person who forgives benefits
> more than the person who was forgiven.
>
> Kristina <hoping I haven't taken this too far off track>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> "Agreement is overrated, and far too boring anyway" ;) - waylayer
>
> AIM: LadeeBookwrm
> IM inside AOL: ladeebkwrm
> ICQ #: 40571882
>
> X-No-Archive: yes
Ladeebkwrm
>
>Forgiveness is strictly not expecting "payment" any longer for a past wrong.
I like this. I was thinking about this this morning, though. (HL has a way of
doing that to me) What *if* the person isn't remorseful? What if they don't
care? Even God only forgives you when you're sorry and you ask for
forgiveness.
But at the same time, it's destructive, I think, for human beings to walk
around still angry at someone years later because of something that's happened
to them. Maybe there's different types of forgiveness.
Kristina <this is an interesting discussion>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Agreement is overrated, and far too boring anyway" ;) - waylayer
AIM: LadeeBookwrm
Valerie Sawyer
who needs to be forgiven. I think holding grudges and hurts in our hearts eats away
at us and makes us old before our time. And you're also right about God waiting for
us to *ask* for forgiveness. That is an interesting topic there. Should we wait for
that person to ask us to forgive them? Or do we just commit in our hearts to
forgive them anyway. Maybe if we go ahead and forgive the person - and they can see
in our lives that we have forgiven them - that will bring them around to
apologizing or reconciling or whatever *they* need to do to set things straight.
Who knows. I just know the bottom line is still in Scripture - "Do unto others as
you would have them do unto you". I know I am weak and undisciplined and apt to say
& do things I don't mean - and I sure would like to know that people don't hold
that against me and will give me a second (or third or fourth) chance to get things
right.
Valerie <going on too much for a Monday>
TBird
donna...@aol.com (DonnaLetto) writes:
If you don't understand what I'm getting at, may I highly recommend
"Mothernight" by Kurt Vonnegut, if you've never read it. ("Be careful what you
pretend to be, because we are what we pretend to be...")
Oh - Kurt isn't the first one to come up with this notion. Nor is Shakespeare.
So I think where we differ is on what Methos is pretending to be.
I think he's pretending to be a double agent who is truly on Macs side in his
heart, and you thing he's a dirty rotten no good lying so-and-so. :-)
As for the Byron stuff - I don't think I said that I thought not raping Mary
Shelley made Methos a "good" man...just that it was an example that he was
already on the path to changing his life in positive ways. Not astonishingly
positive ways, admittedly, but positive ways nonetheless.
>Take away the whole Watcher war and the whole Jillian plot from the AU, and
>just picture a world without Duncan MacLeod where he's been hiding out as
>mild-mannered Adam Pierson for a decade, and then suddenly "Greetings,
>Brother." He'd be a Horseman so fast it would make your head spin, because
>it's preferrable to dying. And at first, he'd convince himself that he was
>only pretending, playing the role Kronos wanted him to play in order to
>survive. But you know what? He *is* good at it. "Don't tell me you haven't
>missed it" -- face it, Methos was so tempted in that scene in "Comes A
>Horseman" he could taste it. I don't know if he'd ever realize exactly when
>he
>stopped pretending...
Wait wait - back up the Forensics Society Train a moment ..... which scene
exactly? The one with Kronos playing threateningly with chains? The pscene
where they are plotting in the sub base? Which which? I can find a
justification for any of it!!!! <LOL>
donna...@aol.com (DonnaLetto) writes:
>I think he is what he is... not good... not evil... these terms are
>meaningless
>to him. He left all that crap behind with Socrates. He is whatever it is
>expedient to be in whatever role he has chosen to play at the given moment.
>He's constantly reinventing himself -- he's probably been 500 or a thousand
>different guys in 5000 years.
Oh - oh - I agree. I just think that at this point in his development he is
chosing the roles that a the right thing to do. Killing Kristen. Saving Mac
from the Dark Q. Slowly digging the sand out from under Kronos' beach
chair.... etc....
donna...@aol.com (DonnaLetto) writes:
>Sure, the guy he's playing today may be a mild-mannered scholar, or "just a
>guy" who likes his beer. And this time next year, he could just as easily be
>the dictator of a third world country, if that's which way the wind blew him.
>
>(Although, actually, that's much too high profile for him... but I'm hoping
>you
>get the basic idea). (Actually, given the charisma-trophic theory, he'd
>probably be second-in-command to the dictator of a third world country <g>)
>
>Survival and expediency. Methosian ethics in a nutshell.
And here I totally disagree. I think he's on a path where the survival and
expediency are considered within the context of the right thing to do.
Skipping ahead...yeah, he kills those gangsters who are after Joe - expedience
- but I don't think he'd kill them if their motives had been good. Does that
make sense?
donna...@aol.com (DonnaLetto) writes in relation to my comments about all the
things Methos does to help Mac defeat the Horseman:
>While also doing everything possible to set up Kronos to be in a winning
>position, too, just in case things didn't work out...
I don't see it. I see Methos setting HIMSELF up in a winning position either
way, but I don't see him giving Kronos anything Kronos doesn't already have.
Kronos has the toxins. Kronos is going to use them, whether Methos tells him
how to do it or not. Methos has nothing to lose by giving Kronos a strategy,
and a lot to gain by slowing Kronos down in his use of the toxins. "Start
small and build" - that really cuts down the potential deaths if Methos
fails.... If the fountain bomb had gone off, at least it wasn't the entire
water supply. And Methos still has time before they try a stadium.... I
really see Methos as almost useless to Kronos, other than he was an original
Horseman. And obviously, Methos ends up being detrimental to Kronos when the
dust settles.
donna...@aol.com (DonnaLetto) writes:
>I'm just saying this does not automatically make him a hero. This does not
>make him a good guy.
I never ever ever ever have said Methos is a hero. Nope. I may be biased, but
I am not deaf, dumb, blind, and stupid either. :-) And he may not be a "good
guy" but I do believe him to be a decent chap. <g>
donna...@aol.com (DonnaLetto) writes re: killing Kristin:
>Only after he was unable to manipulate someone else into doing the dirty work
>for him. And I'm convinced there was nothing altruistic about his need to
>get
>rid of Kristin. There was something personal going on there. He wasn't
>"saving everybody," I think he was getting his own paybacks for something.
Nope. I try really hard not to go down roads that don't have evidence to back
them up on the screen. And on screen, all we are told is that Kristin kills
lots of mortals when they leave her - something Methos knows because he is in
the Watchers. There is no evidence of paybacks, and Kristin doesn't even know
who he is when he challenges her. So I am not buying this argument. But if
you have a bridge somewhere.... :-)
donna...@aol.com (DonnaLetto) writes:
>[ MACLEOD
> (to Methos)
>You set me up!
>
> KRONOS
>He's the master.
>
>(I almost cried when Kronos' response got cut from Rev 6:8. -- it seemed to
>sum
>up everything so well...)]
Well, I am sorry to hear that ... but see above argument about on screen vs.
never made it to tv. :-) Otherwise, you do become an 800 lb gorilla and I
can't possibly argue with what almost happened. I fall into some abyss
somewhere and am lost. We're no longer on any kind of equal footing. Fair?
TBird:
>I think those actions would seem hollow and trite to him if he was trying to
>repent.
Donna:
But since he's not, it's not really a problem, is it? <g> (I saw an opening
too good to pass up...)
Yeah, well, I would do the same.... so I have to just :-Ş <g>
donna...@aol.com (DonnaLetto) writes:
>Just remember: good guys are boring. Why in the world would you want him to
>be a good guy?
Just a good guy? <eg>
No - you're right. I'd lose interest in him, as I lost interest in Mac when I
found Methos. But I remain unafraid of Methos, and continue to trust him to do
the right thing. He hasn't proven me wrong....yet. And since I haven't heard
anything about you helping to write the movie at this point....I'm gonna guess
I'm still safe. :-) But now that I have your insights, I'm also going to
prepare myself for anything. And that just gives me goosebumps.
I have another question....but I am going to ask it so it stands alone and
doesn't get eaten by the rest of this Forensic Study Group.
TBird <----- oh well....so neither of us caved.... :-)
Valerie Sawyer
"character flaw". I don't mean to compare our daily "trespasses" with the magnitude of
what Methos did. I'm not saying that I would ever be able to forgive someone like that.
But it's a good thing to try to forgive - however huge the wrong was that was done to
us. But like a lot of things - it's easier said than done.
TBird
To the people who don't like/don't trust Methos -
Is that how you ALWAYS felt about him? Or did the mistrust come about because
of the Horseman eps?
TBird <---- just curious
TBird
<val...@bellsouth.net> writes:
>Oh but let me add one more thing - Methos' transgressions were a little more
>than a
>"character flaw". I don't mean to compare our daily "trespasses" with the
>magnitude of
>what Methos did. I'm not saying that I would ever be able to forgive someone
>like that.
>But it's a good thing to try to forgive - however huge the wrong was that was
>done to
>us. But like a lot of things - it's easier said than done.
Not even after 3000 years? Not even to heal yourownself?
TBird <--- jes askin'
TBird
ladee...@aol.comeandplay (Ladeebkwrm) writes:
>>Forgiveness is strictly not expecting "payment" any longer for a past wrong.
>
>I like this. I was thinking about this this morning, though. (HL has a way
>of
>doing that to me) What *if* the person isn't remorseful? What if they don't
>care? Even God only forgives you when you're sorry and you ask for
>forgiveness.
Really?
Hmmm....
I saw a movie sometime back (probably on Lifetime) about a man who had killed
someone, and the vistims mother really really wanted him to explain it. It was
eating her alive. Then she decides that she just wants him to apologise, so
she can find peace. Through all this, he refuses - I can't remember if he
refuses to see her at all or just refuses to apologize. Finally she realizes
that it's all up to her, and when she does get to see him, she forgives him in
order to free herself. It doesn't matter anymore if he wants forgiveness or if
he apologises or anything about him. What matters is that she reaches a point
in herself where she allows herself to forgive him so that she can get on with
her own life.
>
>But at the same time, it's destructive, I think, for human beings to walk
>around still angry at someone years later because of something that's
>happened
>to them. Maybe there's different types of forgiveness.
Of course.
>
>Kristina <this is an interesting discussion>
It always is. And it's always different. These are my favorite episodes
because there is so much to discuss - so many themes - so many POVs.
TBird <---- btw, K, I think we make a good team too
Ladeebkwrm
> Even God only forgives you when you're sorry and you ask for forgiveness.
and TBird asked:
>Really?
Well, this is where I think we start dealing with more than one type of
forgiveness. I don't think God ever has the "you did bad I resent you/hate
you" need to forgive us. He loves us no matter what. But in the other sense,
I can only go by - "*IF* we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to
forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness", which is 1
John 1:9. That's what I meant by the first statement.
TBird again:
>Finally she realizes that it's all up to her, and when she does get to see
him, she forgives him in order to free herself.
I think this is the type of forgiveness that's so important for *us* to
practice, on a personal level. The kind that honestly brings more healing to
us than to the person we forgive. I agree completely with you here. I just
don't think God deals in this type towards us, because I don't believe He needs
it. He's beyond it, if you know what I mean. He just didn't like what we did,
not *us* personally.
> These are my favorite episodes
>because there is so much to discuss - so many themes - so many POVs.
Yep. They even prompted my hubby to ponder posting to ATH. He doesn't
actually have time, though. But he liked the idea of discussing these eps.
Methos and his motives fascinate Wayne. Who knows, maybe someday he'll want to
go to a con. And you should have heard us after we watched 2B/N2B. <g>
Kristina <"I did it! I did it! You didn't think I'd do it but indeed I did!">
DonnaLetto
>exactly? The one with Kronos playing threateningly with chains? The pscene
>where they are plotting in the sub base? Which which? I can find a
>justification for any of it!!!! <LOL>
<<can she do it off the top of her head?>>
"Don't tell me you haven't missed it."
"The killing?"
"The freedom. And the power. Riding out of the sun knowing that you're last
thing they'll ever see. Knowing that their weapons and their gods are useless
against you."
[snip]
"That's who you are, Methos."
It's the scene where Kronos tells him he has to kill MacLeod to prove himself.
Donna
TBird
(DonnaLetto) writes:
><<can she do it off the top of her head?>>
>
>"Don't tell me you haven't missed it."
>
>"The killing?"
>
>"The freedom. And the power. Riding out of the sun knowing that you're last
>thing they'll ever see. Knowing that their weapons and their gods are
>useless
>against you."
>[snip]
>"That's who you are, Methos."
>
>It's the scene where Kronos tells him he has to kill MacLeod to prove
>himself.
Okay - well... my tape is currently over there ----> in Broomfield .... by I
will get it back on Thursday and watch again through your POV.
TBird <---- oh the sacrifices I make for the sake of discourse.... <g>
DonnaLetto
>
>>[ MACLEOD
>> (to Methos)
>>You set me up!
>>
>> KRONOS
>>He's the master.
>>
>>(I almost cried when Kronos' response got cut from Rev 6:8. -- it seemed
>to
>>sum
>>up everything so well...)]
>
>Well, I am sorry to hear that ... but see above argument about on screen
>vs.
>never made it to tv. :-) Otherwise, you do become an 800 lb gorilla and
>I
>can't possibly argue with what almost happened. I fall into some abyss
>somewhere and am lost. We're no longer on any kind of equal footing. Fair?
I think you misunderstood why I was quoting here. My point was not "it's in
the script so it must be so." My point was not "Kronos said it, so it must be
so." My point is, whether those three words actually aired doesn't matter,
because that's still what Methos is. I used the quote because I thought people
might have been interested to hear about it -- from now on, I'll just stick to
my own words and say it my own way: He's the master manipulator. He was 3000
years ago riding with Kronos. And he's still that way today. You can't trust
him and you can't turn your back on him.
IMHO, Methos is a "decent chap" for as long as being a "decent chap" gets him
what he wants. After that, look out -- as Steven Keane learned <g>
Donna
(decent chaps often challenge others to honorable combat and then cheat?)
DonnaLetto
I'm sorry, but these two things are *not* synonymous. It's very possible to
like Methos a great deal but not want to turn my back on him.
>Or did the mistrust come about because of the Horseman eps?
Or did the Horseman eps come about because of the mistrust...? <g>
Donna
Cherna
I hope you reconsider your decision and continue to share and enlighten.
Cherna <keeping my fingers crossed>
Non semper ea sunt quae videntur
Terra Incognita http://www.angelfire.com/mi/cherna/
> DonnaLetto shared an edited snippet of dialogue from Rev 6:8 to
> explain a point about Methos' character...
> [MACLEOD (to Methos) You set me up!
> KRONOS He's the master.
> (I almost cried when Kronos' response got cut from Rev 6:8. -- it seemed
> to sum up everything so well...)]
*snip*
> I used the quote because I thought people might have been interested to
> hear about it-- from now on, I'll just stick to my own words and say it
TBird
(DonnaLetto) writes:
>>Or did the mistrust come about because of the Horseman eps?
>
>Or did the Horseman eps come about because of the mistrust...? <g>
Ack ack ack...... chicken....egg.....chicken....egg.....chicken.....egg....
TBird <------runs from the room and has a total breakdown <---- don't
worry...she'll be back in a few minutes
TBird
(DonnaLetto) writes:
>IMHO, Methos is a "decent chap" for as long as being a "decent chap" gets him
>what he wants. After that, look out -- as Steven Keane learned <g>
>
>Donna
>(decent chaps often challenge others to honorable combat and then cheat?)
To achieve an honorable end......
TBird <--- okay - now even *I* know I am stretching.......
TBird
>I think you misunderstood why I was quoting here. My point was not "it's in
>the script so it must be so." My point was not "Kronos said it, so it must
>be
>so." My point is, whether those three words actually aired doesn't matter,
>because that's still what Methos is. I used the quote because I thought
>people
>might have been interested to hear about it -- from now on, I'll just stick
>to
>my own words and say it my own way: He's the master manipulator. He was 3000
>years ago riding with Kronos. And he's still that way today. You can't
>trust
>him and you can't turn your back on him.
I'm sorry - I don't mean to make you stop sharing off screen tidbits....
Just not use them to prove a point...'cos it puts people on unequal footing.
I love the tidbits... I think they're cool and fun....unless I am in a
discussion about an interpretation of characters, and then I have no choice but
to lose, because not everyone is privy to the same database, as it were.
Does that make sense? I'm just asking, I'm not telling.....
TBird <----- don't go gettin' all sensitive on me now..... :-)
Jette Goldie
TBird wrote in message <20000403161601...@nso-fk.aol.com>...
him
>>what he wants. After that, look out -- as Steven Keane learned <g>
>>
>>Donna
>>(decent chaps often challenge others to honorable combat and then cheat?)
>
>To achieve an honorable end......
>
>TBird <--- okay - now even *I* know I am stretching.......
>~ ~ ~
Definately reaching.
Methos is what Methos is. Accept him - and make sure you're
not trapped in a shuttle with him that needs to lose 100 lbs
to achieve orbit. <g>
(prizes to anyone who recognises where that situation comes
from)
Athena
> <<can she do it off the top of her head?>>
>
> "Don't tell me you haven't missed it."
>
> "The killing?"
>
> "The freedom. And the power. Riding out of the sun knowing that you're
last
> thing they'll ever see. Knowing that their weapons and their gods are
useless
> against you."
> [snip]
> "That's who you are, Methos."
And in R6:8 Methos says to Silas <<Can't do it off the top of her head so
this is mangled...>>
"We've lived without all that for 2000 years."
That's who Methos *was*.
IMHO
--
Athena <-- trying to look objectively at Methos without the help of her
gonads and finding it difficult.
You get the facts from outside.
The truth you get from inside.
-- Ursula K Le Guin
ath...@bigtitch.spammerfreeserve.co.uk
-remove the spammer from the works to reply
Gate
is being very bad to me at the moment and not giving me any original posts.
Grrrr.
Athers <Rachel...@tesco.net> wrote in message
news:8c87jp$1df$1...@barcode.tesco.net...
HLU Questions:
1. People get all confused about Cassandra, whether she should have long
ago forgiven Methos for keeping her slave all those years ago; whether she
was nursing her rage and resentment way past time she should have let it
all go. Some people think her very hatred of Methos is undeserved, and that
she's relatively evil herownself, especially if she can't tell that Methos
Has Changed and is no longer Death on a Horse. Some people think Methos
should have been tied down by his nads and Cassandra been given a knife
with which to extract his vitals or pretties, as she chose. Weigh in with
carefully considered opinions, keeping in mind that we're not seeing the
whole story, and we have been presented a carefully edited version of the
tale of Methos & Cassandra.
I, personally, get all confused on this subject because of the inherent
differences between my RL beliefs and fantasy. In RL, I believe that no
one, no matter what, has the right to take another's life, unless it's in
defense. Then again, I'm not an Immortal. As for Methos and Cassandra...I
don't think her hatred of him is undeserved. Unhealthy, maybe, to still be
so obsessed about it after 3,000 years, but hey. As long as it's a fair
fight, I don't
begrudge her her chance to try and whack him.
2. Consider the Following Foursome: Duncan, Cassandra, Methos, Amanda.
Who would win at Monopoly?
Well, I don't think there's any way in Hell Cassandra would sit down to
anything
if Methos was involved, unless perhaps they had him on the Rack. So out of
the three
that are left....I'm sure Methos would find some way to manipulate it so
that Mac won
the Game. But since Monopoly is about as boring as that Old West flashback,
hopefully
they'd abandon it for more interesting pursuits.
3. People come away with differing opinions of Methos. For some, he lost
his attraction all together. For others, the image of Kiss-Me-Methos was
equally as attractive as the image of Evil Duncan MacLeod was in earlier
episodes. Could a common, yet ever-so-attractive Evil Immortal like
Grayson ever hope to compete? You may take into consideration such
attributes and accoutrements as refusal to shave, wearing an earring, choice
of pants,
hair length and style, decorating oneself with blue paint, being a snappy
dresser, manner, and attitude.
While Methos definitely did not lose his attraction altogether, I can't say
that
BA Methos did that much for me. The Voice - his, not Cassandra's - does a
lot for me, but not necessarily what he's saying. Make sense? I love the
growly
thing he gets going, ie the Jimmy scene and the "You live to serve me",
but I can live without the rape and pillage, thankyouverymuch.
4. Is, or is not, "Greetings, Brother" the most chillingly perfect
entrance line ever made by an Immortal, bad or good? Has any made more of a
statement or left a more lasting impression?
Everything Kronos says makes a lasting impression on me. He's just
so....evil.
And he delights in being evil, which is why he's my favorite villain. I
love the scenes
just after Methos returns from telling Mac about the bomb, and the way he
toys with
Methos, talking about how alike they are, how perfect it all is. "We all
have our own
little plans." It makes me shiver. But in a good way.
5. Which is more of a fashion statement: blue face paint or extremely
acrylic fingernails?
Depends. Before or after Labor Day? <g>
Athena
> Methos is what Methos is. Accept him - and make sure you're
> not trapped in a shuttle with him that needs to lose 100 lbs
> to achieve orbit. <g>
>
> (prizes to anyone who recognises where that situation comes
> from)
I can't remember the exact situation (or weights), but there are
similarities to Avon going after Vila in an ep on Blake's 7.
Now *there's* a question for HLU - Methos and Avon: Compare and Contrast.
--
Athena
DonnaLetto
>not trapped in a shuttle with him that needs to lose 100 lbs
>to achieve orbit. <g>
Spit-take!
Donna
(fried rice everywhere! hope the geek dept. isn't watching while I pick rice
grains out of my keyboard <g>)
DonnaLetto
>I hope you reconsider your decision and continue to share and enlighten.
>
>Cherna <keeping my fingers crossed>
>Non semper ea sunt quae videntur
>Terra Incognita http://www.angelfire.com/mi/cherna/
>
>
>> DonnaLetto shared an edited snippet of dialogue from Rev 6:8 to
>> explain a point about Methos' character...
>
>> [MACLEOD (to Methos) You set me up!
>
>> KRONOS He's the master.
>
>> (I almost cried when Kronos' response got cut from Rev 6:8. -- it seemed
>> to sum up everything so well...)]
>
>*snip*
>
>
>
>> my own way: He's the master manipulator. He was 3000 years ago riding
>
>> with Kronos. And he's still that way today. You can't trust him and
>you
>> can't turn your back on him.
Ack! Now I have to explain my explanations! Help! <g>
I'm not threatening to stop sharing, just to not depend on the obscure tidbits
to make my points for me.
Donna
Jette Goldie
Athena wrote in message <8cb1cc$7lc$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>Jette wrote:
>> Methos is what Methos is. Accept him - and make sure you're
>> not trapped in a shuttle with him that needs to lose 100 lbs
>> to achieve orbit. <g>
>>
>> from)
>
>I can't remember the exact situation (or weights), but there are
>similarities to Avon going after Vila in an ep on Blake's 7.
Bingo! The ep was called "Orbit" and it was 4th season, near
the end of the season. Poor Vila - he never really recovered
from the discovery that while Avon might put his (Vila's) life
ahead of others (strangers or Tarrant for example), when it
came down to the line, Avon put AVON's life before anyone
elses <g>.
>
>Now *there's* a question for HLU - Methos and Avon: Compare and Contrast.
>-
<g>
Don't think I haven't noticed the similarities <g>
Jette Goldie
DonnaLetto wrote in message
<20000403171732...@ng-cg1.aol.com>...
>>Methos is what Methos is. Accept him - and make sure you're
>>not trapped in a shuttle with him that needs to lose 100 lbs
>>to achieve orbit. <g>
>
>
>Donna
>(fried rice everywhere! hope the geek dept. isn't watching while I pick
rice
>grains out of my keyboard <g>)
<RRREG>
Jerri LaPoint
> >From: Valerie Sawyer
> > Forgiveness is strictly not expecting "payment"
> > any longer for a past wrong.
> I like this. I was thinking about this this morning, though.
> (HL has a way of doing that to me) What *if* the
> person isn't remorseful? What if they don't care? Even
> God only forgives you when you're sorry and you ask for
> forgiveness.
Coming at this from a slightly different angle ... one of the resident
atheists here ... I don't think remorse has anything at all to do with
forgiveness. If you require the price of remorse in order to gift another
with forgiveness, it's not much of a gift, and forgiveness is ALWAYS a gift.
It can't be bought or sold or it isn't real.
> But at the same time, it's destructive, I think, for human
> beings to walk around still angry at someone years later
> because of something that's happened
> to them. Maybe there's different types of forgiveness.
I think a lot depends on the level of suffering endured by the victim. Since
we're talking about Cassandra and Methos in particular, she endured
centuries of the worst kind of abuse. The fact that Methos doesn't feel
remorse isn't all that germane. The fact that Cassandra has an excellent
memory and excellent cause for anger is germane. If she chooses not to gift
Methos with forgiveness, I think that's a right decision. Methos doesn't
want her forgiveness. He merely wants her to leave him alone.
As for how destructive her anger is ... nah ... she carried it around for
centuries and made a life for herself. She only struck out when opportunity
presented itself. She's not mortal with a limited lifespan. She doesn't have
to contemplate the loss of years spent in plotting and searching. If she's
willing to put her life on the line in order to have a shot at her worst
enemy, I say "go, girl!".
Jerri (thinks Cassandra is irritating. thinks Methos is heinous)
--
Legacy 2000
Washington, D.C.
May 26 - 29, 2000
http://www.legacycon.org/
********************
http://home.earthlink.net/~jerlapoint
***************************
Ann Hall
committed whatever bad deed we resent apologizes or feels remorseful. It
would be nice, but it isn't necessary. It also doesn't make any difference
if we believe in the God of the Bible, ultimately it comes down to
ourselves. We have to let go of the hurt, the pain and the hate that fester
inside us. When we do that we can let go, can get on with our lives. It
will not make the event any less terrible, it will not erase the event, but
it will let us go forward. The longer you hold on to such feelings, the
more you remove yourself from living and dwell on the wrongs. Soon you are
consumed by them and can see and feel nothing else. It is the ability to
forgive in the large sense that sets us free to continue on with our lives.
It's a noble thought, but it does work. It isn't easy to do that and you do
not have to believe in any deities to do this. It isn't a Christian thing,
it's a human thing.
--
Ann Hall
"If the world were a logical place, men would ride side saddle."
Ladeebkwrm <ladee...@aol.comeandplay> wrote in message
news:20000403153104...@ng-cc1.aol.com...
> I said:
>
> > Even God only forgives you when you're sorry and you ask for
forgiveness.
>
> Methos and his motives fascinate Wayne. Who knows, maybe someday he'll
want to
Ladeebkwrm
>Ah... come on! It's great to find out about this kinda stuff.
>I hope you reconsider your decision and continue to share and enlighten.
>
>Cherna <keeping my fingers crossed>
Yes, please. It's very interesting.
Kristina
Ladeebkwrm
they'd abandon it for more interesting pursuits.
And hopefully someone would write a fanfic about it. <eeeeeg>
Ladeebkwrm
why. Well, I like him...I adore him, actually. (I know - you're shocked,
right? <g>) But I wouldn't trust him for a second. Nope. Uh uh. He's gonna
do what he's gonna do, and if you fit into his plans, great. If you don't, you
better hope you're not in his way, cuz he'll whack you in a heartbeat.
I liked what Jette said about needing to lose 100 lbs to reach orbit. Perfect
example. <g>
Mr. Mom
>>Is she one of the thousands who haunt
>>his?
>
>I think that's giving her much more importance than she ever had to him. I
>doubt he'd given her another thought from the day he'd found a replacement for
>her after she ran off ('cause somebody's got to cool his wine in the river,
>it's not like he was going to do it himself) until there she was in Mac's dojo.
Typical male.
Michael <Typical male>
Mr. Mom's little corner of The Net:
http://members.tripod.com/MJHouse
===========================================
E-Mail address to discourage Spambots:
mjhousesr at earthink dot net
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Don't try to outweird me, three-eyes. I get stranger things
than you free with my breakfast cereal."
- Zaphod Beeblebrox in "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Ladeebkwrm
> We have to let go of the hurt, the pain and the hate that fester inside us.
When we do that we can let go, can get on with our lives. It will not make the
event any less terrible, it will not erase the event, but
>it will let us go forward. The longer you hold on to such feelings, the more
you remove yourself from living and dwell on the wrongs.
Yep. Yep yep yep.
*nodding*
That's what I was originally saying.
Kristina <then we went off on a tangent>
Ladeebkwrm
>Coming at this from a slightly different angle ... one of the resident
atheists here ... I don't think remorse has anything at all to do with
forgiveness. If you require the price of remorse in order to gift another
>with forgiveness, it's not much of a gift, and forgiveness is ALWAYS a gift.
I agree with you. This is actually what I believe (and hopefully) put into
practice in my life. It's just that the discussion here yesterday made me
think about it from a different angle, so I asked the question.
Kristina
TBird
(DonnaLetto) writes:
>Ack! Now I have to explain my explanations! Help! <g>
>
>I'm not threatening to stop sharing, just to not depend on the obscure
>tidbits
>to make my points for me.
That seems fair to me!
TBird <---- picky about everything - I guess :-)
NiH
Ladeebkwrm wrote in message
<8c96ou$cdr2$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>...
>
>
>NiH wrote in message <8c9481$h3l$1...@husk.cso.niu.edu>...
>>Forgiveness is a rare and precious gift, and if it is made mandatory, it
>loses is substance and
>>meaning. One is entitled to hold a grudge, if truly wronged, as Cassandra
>>was.
>
>I really disagree with this. Not the first part of the first sentence, I
>think that's true. And I agree that touchy-feely "they did bad, but we're
>going to forgive them" forgiveness is cheap and empty. But true
forgiveness
>that comes from your heart, even if it not willingly at first, (but because
>you hold forgiveness as an ideal or believe that your God requires it of
>you) that can be a true blessing to everyone it touches.
Maybe, but in general, I believe that when people do wrong, they should
pay for it. I also believe that anger is, under certain circumstances,
justified, and that "requiring" forgiveness is entirely unfair. I also
believe in The Great Apologetic Irony, thye idea that those who think that
they deserve to be forgiven are the ones who deserve it the least. Those
who really regeret what they did, and are prepared to take what they deserve
for it, *them* you can forgive. (Think John Kage.) I don't know where
Methos stands in this paradigm, though I noiticed he didn't beg for his life
when Cassandra readied to take a swing at him...
So, it's not that I don't see the value of forgiveness, it's just that I
don't think it can be demanded in this case.
>
>And remember, I don't think just because something's forgiven means that
>what the person did was "ok". Just that the person hurt isn't going to be
>filled with anger and hate and resentment toward that person anymore.
That isn't forgiving; that's forgetting. There's a difference, at least
as far as *I* define the term. Bear this in mind as you re-read my above
comments.
>
>I realize we aren't going to agree on this probably, and that's ok with me.
>But I couldn't leave that statement unchallenged.
I'm not sure how much we *do* disagree here, apart from a difference in
semantics.
NiH
DMVTREK
writes:
>You're right - we don't know the whole story, but Cassandra makes sure she
>doesn't know the whole story, she's not even willing to listen. In her
>position, three thousand years after the fact, I'd still be pissed off at my
>treatment - that they kept me in the dark about what I was, that they took
>my life away from me - but I would like to think I'd got to the point where
>I would want to know *why*.
But can she afford to ask why? Let's face it he tortured her, raped her, killed
her entire tribe and kept her a slave. Methos never bothers to tell her what
she is. She eventually escapes, learns about immortality and the game. Then she
sees him again for the first time after 3000 years and the first thing he does
is --Lie and then he runs away. So at this point I don't think I would care
about why. I would want him dead.
>The other thing is, Methos really has changed IMHO. The lengths he goes to
>in Timeless/Methuselah's Gift for Alexa are lengths that Death would never
>have gone to for anyone. He isn't the man he was and to have turned himself
>around from being the absolute bad guy to being someone who is essentially a
>good guy takes courage and one hell of a will to change.
Cassandra doesn't know this.
>
>The hatered of Cassandra for Methos is understandable, but by making herself
>unwilling to recognise that he's different now, she's forfited the right to
>some sort of justice - she's made herself almost as bad as the Horsemen
>were.
How is she supposed to recognized that he changed?
We are seeing an edited version of events; I don't believe for one minute that
after Kronos,Caspian, and Silas kidnapped her in the hotel room then took her
back to the submarine base; they put her in the cage and left her alone until
Methos got there. I think at the very least Kronos raped her; if not also
Caspian and Silas.
So she's in a cage, surrounded by monsters reliving her worst nightmare. And in
the midst of this she's supposed ask and/or care if Methos changed ?
Methos is my favorite character and I understand and agree that he had changed
but there is no way for Cassandra to know this or expect she should.
Dana
**************************************************************************
********
"Good must always triumph over evil. Did ya not know that?"-Duncan MacLeod
"I've found that Evil usually triumphs unless Good is very,very
careful."-Dr.McCoy
DMVTREK
>> Questions.
>> 1. People get all confused about Cassandra, whether she should have long
>> ago forgiven Methos for keeping her slave all those years ago; whether she
>> was nursing her rage and resentment way past time she should have let it
>all
>> go. Some people think her very hatred of Methos is undeserved, and that
>> she's relatively evil herownself, especially if she can't tell that Methos
>> Has Changed and is no longer Death on a Horse. Some people think Methos
>> should have been tied down by his nads and Cassandra been given a knife
>with
>> which to extract his vitals or pretties, as she chose. Weigh in with
>> carefully considered opinions, keeping in mind that we're not seeing the
>> whole story, and we have been presented a carefully edited version of the
>> tale of Methos & Cassandra.
Cassandra at no point in the story sees a changed Methos. How is she supposed
to know that he has changed? First time she sees him he lies. Then there is the
argument that Duncan trusts him so should she. Why should she trust Duncan's
judgement ? She is 3000 years old and Duncan is 400--to her Dunkie is just a
kid. She knows what Methos did to her and what he is capable of doing. She has
every right to go after him...and make him pay.
>> 2. Consider the Following Foursome: Duncan, Cassandra, Methos, Amanda.
>>Who would win at Monopoly?
Nobody. The game would never get finished. Amanda and Methos would try to
cheat. Duncan and Cassandra would catch them. Amanda and Duncan would end up in
bed together and Cassandra and Methos would be dukeing it out down in the dojo.
>> 3. People come away with differing opinions of Methos. For some, he lost
>> his attraction all together. For others, the image of Kiss-Me-Methos was
>> equally as attractive as the image of Evil Duncan MacLeod was in earlier
>> episodes. Could a common, yet ever-so-attractive Evil Immortal like
>Grayson
>> ever hope to compete? You may take into consideration such attributes and
>> accoutrements as refusal to shave, wearing an earring, choice of pants,
>hair
>> length and style, decorating oneself with blue paint, being a snappy
>> dresser, manner, and attitude.
I don't know what Grayson was wearing in his raping and pillaging days, but he
probably didn't accesorize as well as Methos.
>> 4. Is, or is not, "Greetings, Brother" the most chillingly perfect
>entrance
>> line ever made by an Immortal, bad or good? Has any made more of a
>statement
>> or left a more lasting impression?
I am sure the knife that he plunged into Methos chest also made a lasting
impression. Of course for a mortal; Kronos greeting would probably be their
last impression.
>> 5. Which is more of a fashion statement: blue face paint or extremely
>> acrylic fingernails?
Blue paint; he looks good in blue!
>6. When the Jimmy scene starts, Methos is loading up his SUV to go
>somewhere - and that somewhere is clearly intended to be permanent. Where?
>Is this in preparation for going to Bordeaux or is he perhaps intending to
>skip town and lose Kronos?
He was planning to skip town until he ran into Dunkie and then his plans
changed.
>7. Why is Kronos not susceptible to The Voice? Does this mean Methos is as
>well?
I think he is not susceptible because it does not effect immortals older than
her. Or because Cassandra was facing someone who frightened her so she wasn't
able to put in the power to make it work.
>8. Cassandra is clearly not much of a swords woman for an Immortal, as
>compared to, say, Amanda. Is The Voice the only reason Cassandra's kept her
>head all these centuries?
Maybe or maybe she just didn't go looking for fights.
DMVTREK
(DonnaLetto) writes:
>>Methos grew up, grew out of the
>>Horseman mindset, and moved forward. He may not be a champion of Good, he
>>may
>>not be America's sweetheart, but he deserves to have his changes noticed,
>and
>>he deserves to ask forgiveness if he thinks it's appropriate.
>
>Now, for extra credit, compare and contrast with "Blind Faith."
>
>Donna
>{"Okay... he's not the same person. But I don't see how twenty years of
>doing
>good begins to cover his tab...")
>
I think a good question to ask is if Kage had raped and murdered Duncan. Would
Duncan have been able to forgive him?
DMVTREK
sixt4...@aol.comedancing (TBird) writes:
>donna...@aol.com (DonnaLetto) writes:
>>
>>Even if those abstract "past evils" were practiced upon you and still haunt
>>your dreams at night? Because to Cassandra, and Methos' other victims, and
>>Kage's victims, this is not a debate in the abstract, and therefore their
>>conclusions are not necessarily the logical ones.
>>
>
>So Methos should let Cassandra kill him because she can't get over it?
>I think there has to be a point where she takes responsibilty for healing
>herself, whether justice is served or not; whether she achieves revenge or
>not.
>
>If they haunt my dreams, it's because I let them.
>I've had my share of nightmares...but I believe it's up to me to banish them
>and to heal their cause within myself. That's all I have power over, myself.
>
>No one else can heal me. No one else can soothe me. Ultimately I am
>responsible for my own happiness.
Yeah but Cassandra in a unique position she can't go to the police and have him
prosecuted. And can you see her going to therapy and trying to explain all this
to her therapist. Besides the only shrink she could go to is dead ...Dunkie
decapitated him.
>donna...@aol.com (DonnaLetto) writes:
>
>>I'm not convinced there was a defining moment and a conscious decision to
>>change on Methos' part like there was for Kage. Perhaps there was a
>>conscious
>>decision to "survive," and in the current climate that means he behaves and
>>keeps his head down? But, as illustrated in "Not To Be," if the climate
>>changed, I feel certain so would Methos.
>
>I don't know if there's adefining moment for Methos either ... but
>
><sucking air in through teeth and cringing>
>Not meaning to step on toes...but this is the one part of Not to Be I have
>never been able to defend. Shomeret and I debated all the AU characters when
>she was here, and I really defended that AU people, even *maybe* getting
>Shomeret to see how Joe *might* end up hopeless in a wheelchair, and how
>Amanda
>might end up as a black widow without Duncan. But Methos - he's just too
>smart
>to have ended up where he did in the AU, and his lifes history is too long.
>He
>was already different in the Byron ep, and was able to stand up for what was
>right at that point, WITHOUT Mac around. So it's very hard for me to see why
>he'd be involved with an idiot woman, much less reveal himself to her. My
>point being, that I don't think Methos is really that easily influenced by
>climate. He was already on a path. I think he would have tried to find ways
>to kill Kronos no matter what universe he was in.
><hopes Donna doesn't hate me now><g>
The whole premise of NTB is what would happen if Duncan hadn't been a part of
the characters lives; so its not fair to use this episode in the argument
against Methos.
As for Byron --all he did was tell Byron to get out of town he wasn't going to
stop him. Duncan did that.
In NTB I don't think Methos realized how stupid Jilly was until it was to late,
but at least she tried to do something. You can't tell me that Methos; couldn't
have taken Horton out if he wanted to. Why he didn't want to is beyond me ?
Horton would have eventually found out about him? At this point he would have
had the element of surprise on his side.
>donna...@aol.com (DonnaLetto) writes:
>
>>And I think this is where we really differ. Because, unlike Kage, I see no
>>"repentence" in Methos. Sure, he's come to terms with who he was. He
>>expects
>>MacLeod to "accept it," but I think it's key that he never asks for
>>forgiveness, not from Mac and not from Cassandra. He never "repents." And
>>he
>>brushes it off blythely as "one of a thousand regrets." Not a sin. Not an
>>evil. Just a "regret."
>
><cringing again>
>My god - how could he ask for forgiveness? How does one ask for forgiveness
>for crimes of that magnitude? He wants to live. There's no way to reconcile
>his will to live with repentence for the past horrors he has inflicted. He'd
>have to throw himself in front of a train a la Mikey. After thousands of
>years, I think the best he can do is live with it, and hope others can accept
>it, and yes, blythely write it off as "one of a thousand regrets".....because
>to face it head on...to truly deal with it.... He'd have to give up his will
>to
>live. The best he can do is try to fix what is happening here and now. Any
>more than that would have to be just overwhelming.
>
>I know. I know I am horrendously biased. But I can't just forget how Methos
>stood by Duncan even as Duncan threw him across the church, and how he tried
>to
>save Mac from Macsownself *and* Steven Keane, and how Methos did everything
>possible to set Mac up to be in the winning position against Kronos - no
>matter
>how desperate those actions were. I can't forget what he did for Alexa. I
>can't forget how he tried to save everyone from Kristin.
Methos has done a lot of good things. And has friends he loved and who loved
him. So did the Nazi's.
When Donna was describing Methos I couldn't help but remember this show called;
Nazi's :A Warning From History on it they interviewed German soldiers who
participated in the death squads. None of these men seemed remorseful or
remorseful enough. To one guy who participated in the killings the inteviewer
asked "My collegue wants to know how you can sit there and show know remorse
for what you have done?" And the man answered "I spent 20 years in prison; I
was punished for what I did." It was really chilling.
Another soldier replied when he questioned what he was doing he was told "We
either do it to them or they will do it to us."
And the men who headed up these Death Squads the Ausein Staszen ( I know I'm
not spelling this right but anyone who knows the correct spelling feel free to
correct me.) were all College graduates with degrees. One of the Squad
commanders had a psychological degree and wrote his superiors that the killings
were having a detrimental effect on his men and urged them to find a more
humane way to carry out the exterminations. NOT humane for the victims but for
the soldiers.
The people who knew them were interviewed and called one of them a sweet,
polite gallant gentleman. And when the interviewer asked her "How can you
reconcile the man you know with the man who was one of the biggest Nazi
criminals?" The woman replied, " I can't. I tried to stop him from doing
terrible things. And all he would say to me is don't concern yourself. These
are things you don't understand."
The men they interviewed looked like someone's grandfather. They didn't sneer
or look disgusting or scary. These men were monsters with all too human faces.
That is what makes them so scary.
You see these old men and think at this point in their lives should they be
punished for what they did ? And then they show films of the mass graves and
pictures of women and children stripped and herded into pits and shot like
animals. How can you not make them pay?
We were shown a PG version of the Horseman if we were shown exactly what Methos
had done to Cassandra and others. Would we be defending him? Would we want to?
DMVTREK
sixt4...@aol.comedancing (TBird) writes:
>>IMHO, Methos is a "decent chap" for as long as being a "decent chap" gets
>him
>>what he wants. After that, look out -- as Steven Keane learned <g>
>>
>>Donna
>>(decent chaps often challenge others to honorable combat and then cheat?)
>
>To achieve an honorable end......
What is Honor? They kill women in some arab countries when they have been alone
with a man or who have been raped, because the family honor is at stake.
Sometimes honor is something people use to justifies their atrocities and
cruelties.
DMVTREK
In article <38E8FAD5...@ameritech.net>, Cherna <che...@ameritech.net>
writes:
>Ah... come on! It's great to find out about this kinda stuff.
>I hope you reconsider your decision and continue to share and enlighten.
>
>Cherna <keeping my fingers crossed>
>Non semper ea sunt quae videntur
>Terra Incognita http://www.angelfire.com/mi/cherna/
>
>
>> DonnaLetto shared an edited snippet of dialogue from Rev 6:8 to
>> explain a point about Methos' character...
>
>> [MACLEOD (to Methos) You set me up!
>
>> KRONOS He's the master.
>
>> (I almost cried when Kronos' response got cut from Rev 6:8. -- it seemed
>> to sum up everything so well...)]
>
>*snip*
>
>> I used the quote because I thought people might have been interested to
>> hear about it-- from now on, I'll just stick to my own words and say it
>> my own way: He's the master manipulator. He was 3000 years ago riding
>> with Kronos. And he's still that way today. You can't trust him and you
>> can't turn your back on him.
>
>
DMVTREK
<bosslad...@mydeja.com> writes:
>Definately reaching.
>
>Methos is what Methos is. Accept him - and make sure you're
>not trapped in a shuttle with him that needs to lose 100 lbs
>to achieve orbit. <g>
>
>(prizes to anyone who recognises where that situation comes
>from)
>
>Jette Goldie
>
I know ! I know ! Is that from a TV series starring Andy Griffith called
Salvage One...And no this is not my final answer.
Dana