immortals/immortals
Paula Behanna
now how'd you know I'd read this?? yes, while I am an advid reader of
DM/M stories (& will praise Paige to the highest levels) DM/CM,
CM/Rameriez, RR/DM stories will make me run real fast & as Jette is so
quick to point out, Joe don't do slash!! hell, I even like the couple
methos/amanda things i've found -- BUT the point to all this that first,
before anything, it must be well written & hold true to character.
APB
Lady Paula of Queen Patt's gutter court: reasercher, collector, &
distributor of the royal slash
Knight-Presumptive Methos Boxer Brigade
List Mom -- The Unattainables.
*******************************
.. from a mind so twisted, it's actually sprained.....
-------------------------------------------
not a morning person doesn't begin to cover it!!
ptst...@webtv.net
Quite right, SteveiAnn. CM and DM not biological relatives at all, that
we know of. But moraly may be another question. Like step siblings.
May not be blood related, but often feel they are sisters and brothers.
Patt
"I left him for dead and buried his axe. If there was a Valhalla, I
wanted him weaponless.
StevieAnn
Paula Behanna <apbe...@webtv.net> wrote in article
<6874s5$9ju$1...@newsd-151.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
: now how'd you know I'd read this??
to quote Connor: heh heh heh
: yes, while I am an advid reader of
: DM/M stories (& will praise Paige to the highest levels) DM/CM,
: CM/Rameriez, RR/DM stories will make me run real fast & as Jette is so
: quick to point out, Joe don't do slash!! hell, I even like the couple
: methos/amanda things i've found -- BUT the point to all this that first,
: before anything, it must be well written & hold true to character.
Yup, if the characters aren't true, then it's just original fiction, not
fanfic. Slash isn't for everybody and I didn't even know it existed until
I hit this ng a few months ago. I see it as an extension of the show,
something that explores not just different relationships but other
aspects of the characters that the show hasn't covered. It can also be an
exploration of the a different path, a fork in the road after some
particular episode. Plus, in the middle of rerun h*ll and the upcoming
end of the show and god knows when the movie will be out, it provides new
HL stories for me.
:
: APB
: Lady Paula of Queen Patt's gutter court: reasercher, collector, &
: distributor of the royal slash
: Knight-Presumptive Methos Boxer Brigade
: List Mom -- The Unattainables.
: *******************************
: .. from a mind so twisted, it's actually sprained.....
: -------------------------------------------
: not a morning person doesn't begin to cover it!!
:
--
StevieAnn
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch
- Anonymous
Squire to Knight-Presumptive Paula, Methos Boxer Brigade
Gutter Groupie - "Run, Duncan, run your kilt off !"
reader of sigs and everything below the line
a Chimera lost in the shadow of the Unattainables
StevieAnn
ptst...@webtv.net wrote in article
<6875qa$p6u$1...@newsd-161.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
: Quite right, SteveiAnn. CM and DM not biological relatives at all, that
: we know of. But moraly may be another question. Like step siblings.
: May not be blood related, but often feel they are sisters and brothers.
:
: Patt
*sisters and brothers*? now I've got a pic of DM in that dress when he
was doing Shakespeare with Connor planting a wet one on his cheek! <g>
Shomeret
Absolutely do not agree that Joe doesn't do slash. IMAO he definitely does.
I've been seeing DM/JD scenarios since the end of the 4th season and I have
friends who have the same idea.
SHOMERET
RebeccaMW
doesn't do slash, then JOE DOEN'T DO SLASH. Cause anyone with half a brain
know that Jette knows Joe better than any of us could ever hope to.<g>
Rebecca
A victim of the world wide Celtic diaspora. Denied my heritage! Denied the
Scottish Highlands! Plan to hold the grudge forever!
Madelyne N
>Listen, buddy, I may not even know what slash is, BUT if Jette >says that
Joe doesn't do slash, then JOE DOEN'T DO SLASH. >Cause anyone with half a
brain know that Jette knows Joe better >than any of us could ever hope to.<g>
>
>
I can't see Joe doing slash... But on the Cruise... I think... I'm not
Positive... but Someone asked Jim about a JD/A scene then Jim said how about a
JD/M/A scene... then Peter went, JD/M/A/ and a sports announcer... I'm not
positive... btu I think that is what was said... Oh well.. I just know Joe
Don't do slash... At least in my mind.
Mandi
StevieAnn
RebeccaMW <rebe...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19971229072...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
: >
: >Absolutely do not agree that Joe doesn't do slash. IMAO he definitely
does.
: >I've been seeing DM/JD scenarios since the end of the 4th season and I
have
: >friends who have the same idea.
: >
: > SHOMERET
: Listen, buddy, I may not even know what slash is, BUT if Jette says
that Joe
: doesn't do slash, then JOE DOEN'T DO SLASH. Cause anyone with half a
brain
: know that Jette knows Joe better than any of us could ever hope to.<g>
: Rebecca
: A victim of the world wide Celtic diaspora. Denied my heritage! Denied
the
: Scottish Highlands! Plan to hold the grudge forever!
I second this! (and I do know slash <g>) <eek> DM/JD <shudder> (of
course, I never understood that Kirk/Spock thing either <ack>) jmho, of
course.
Jette Goldie
Paula Behanna wrote in message
<6874s5$9ju$1...@newsd-151.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
>now how'd you know I'd read this?? yes, while I am an advid reader of
>DM/M stories (& will praise Paige to the highest levels) DM/CM,
>CM/Rameriez, RR/DM stories will make me run real fast & as Jette is so
>quick to point out, Joe don't do slash!! hell, I even like the couple
>methos/amanda things i've found -- BUT the point to all this that first,
>before anything, it must be well written & hold true to character.
Well, it was Dail who said said first that "Joe don't do no slash" - and
since she's the slash writer, one has to respect her opinion.
The problem is there is so little GOOD slash written for Highlander. Good
slash is about two heterosexual characters, who find the ONE person of the
same sex in their whole universe with whom they can (and are driven to) have
a sexual relationship; or the ONE situation in which such an episode can
happen between the characters. It's NOT about turning DM and Methos into
prancing queens making cow eyes at each other.
Bad slash bores the pants off me - and I get AWFUL bored these days.
Jette Goldie (Joe's my jo!) boss...@ednet.co.uk
(Married, not Dead!) :-))) Jettamis of the hetskeeters
****HOMELAND '98 - September 25th-28th 1998.****
Homeland '98 (the Albacon) Scotland's first Highlander Convention
Guest of Honour JIM BYRNES!! VALENTINE PELKA
with Donna Lettow & Gillian Horvath
http://www.ednet.co.uk/~bosslady/index-2.html
Electrical Eggs (UK) Helping fans with special needs attend conventions
http://www.members.tripod.com/~bosslady/eggs-uk.html
Fanfic and Poetry at:-
http://members.tripod.com/~bosslady/index-2.html
StevieAnn
Jette Goldie <boss...@ednet.co.uk> wrote in article
<6892t0$dib$1...@monteverdi.ednet.co.uk>...
:
: <snip>
: The problem is there is so little GOOD slash written for Highlander.
: slash is about two heterosexual characters, who find the ONE person of
the
: same sex in their whole universe with whom they can (and are driven to)
have
: a sexual relationship; or the ONE situation in which such an episode can
: happen between the characters. It's NOT about turning DM and Methos
into
: prancing queens making cow eyes at each other.
:
: Bad slash bores the pants off me - and I get AWFUL bored these days.
:
: Jette Goldie (Joe's my jo!) boss...@ednet.co.uk
Exactly! There you go, Rebecca, that's a good explanation of slash!
Thanks, Jette!
--
StevieAnn (who is slowly discovering just how boring bad slash can be
<ick>)
ptst...@webtv.net
Kirk/Spock slash? My opinion?
ACK! ACK! <gag> <cough, cough> BLECK! <shudder> PIT-TOOIE!!! <spit,
spit, spit> <shudder again>
Patt
who even thought it might be even close to erotic? Huh? I hope they
are locked up tight somewhere!
StevieAnn
ptst...@webtv.net wrote in article
<6894pc$soh$1...@newsd-162.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
: Kirk/Spock slash? My opinion?
:
: ACK! ACK! <gag> <cough, cough> BLECK! <shudder> PIT-TOOIE!!! <spit,
: spit, spit> <shudder again>
:
: Patt
: who even thought it might be even close to erotic? Huh? I hope they
: are locked up tight somewhere!
<patting Patt on the back> sorry didn't mean to make you get all worked up
there. Hope you weren't eating anything! I had that same reaction too,
luckily I found HL slash before I ever heard of K/S or I might never have
touched the stuff!
--
StevieAnn (still shaking head at that K/S stuff)
ptst...@webtv.net
Jette, first I totally agree with you. But that line! "Prancing queens
making dcow eyes at each other"? LOL!!!!
I totally agree. It is just not something I see as a lifestyle, except
as you say, with that one person, for DM or Joe. Methos I can see as bi
with no problem.
Patt
Paula Behanna
WOW, my weeks complete already, Jette resopnded to a post of mine <G>!!
ya'll should've been around the night I first told Patt about K/S
stories!! talk about a meltdown -- she had been reading DM/M stuff for
awhile, but this neither of us can handle!!
But, I'll agree with Jette on this point, to many slash writer are
trying to damn hard to be "different". there's a bunch of both gen &
slash stories that (no one get pissy about this PLEASE!!) stink!! but
when you find that gem, it's worth all the trash that came before.
JMHO.
Claire Maier
ptst...@webtv.net wrote:
: Kirk/Spock slash? My opinion?
:
: ACK! ACK! <gag> <cough, cough> BLECK! <shudder> PIT-TOOIE!!! <spit,
: spit, spit> <shudder again>
:
: Patt
: who even thought it might be even close to erotic? Huh? I hope they
: are locked up tight somewhere!
Oh, c'mon! K/S is *the original slash.* And granted, most of it is bad,
but there are some good stories out there.
--
Claire Maier bioa...@emory.edu CLMaier (within AOL only)
To be different is not necessarily to be ugly;
to have a different idea is not necessarily to be wrong.
The worst possible thing is for all of us to begin
to look and act and think alike.
-- Gene Roddenberry
Shomeret
As one of those original slashers who started with K/S in 1977, I really have
to say that it's a matter of taste. What is a self-evident slash relationship
to one fan is absolute anathema to another Until I started imagining a DM/JD
slash relationship, HL was just another series for me. The intensity of their
interaction has just blown me away.. I see no reason why Joe can't be bi. The
HL character that I'd never place in a slash story is Richie. Now there's a
man who's got to be 100% heterosexual.
SHOMERET
Jette Goldie
Shomeret wrote in message <19971231223...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
Except for the fact that slash was NEVER about characters being *bi* - it
was about characters who were 99% het but finding the ONE person/situation
where they could be with the other character.
Now this is why I went off slash fiction - folks started to get the wrong
idea and write bad slash.
Jette Goldie (Joe's my jo!) boss...@ednet.co.uk
Shomeret
Your idea that slash is about heterosexuals who make an exception is only one
view of slash. There have been a number of slash fans who have challenged that
view including some of the founders of the genre. You have a right to your
opinion, but I resent you telling me what slash is about. Personally, I think
the concept of heterosexuals making an exception is on very shaky ground from a
sexual identity perspective. I don't think a 100% heterosexual would ever have
the inclination to make an exception. The very fact that he did implies that
he isn't 100% heterosexual. Kinsey has shown that sexuality is on a continuum
and that's the way I look at slash. In a previous message, you also said
something about characters becoming "queens". I have never seen any slash
writers portray HL characters as "queens" i.e. effeminate caricatures who go
around calling each other darling, wearing drag etc. I think that you have
certain prejudices about slash that aren't based on the reality of what is
actually being written.
SHOMERET
RosebudSal
In article <6874s5$9ju$1...@newsd-151.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, apbe...@webtv.net
(Paula Behanna) writes:
>
>now how'd you know I'd read this?? yes, while I am an advid reader of
>DM/M stories (& will praise Paige to the highest levels) DM/CM,
>CM/Rameriez, RR/DM stories will make me run real fast & as Jette is so
>quick to point out, Joe don't do slash!! hell, I even like the couple
>methos/amanda things i've found -- BUT the point to all this that first,
>before anything, it must be well written & hold true to character.
>
>APB
In the Highlander world, the only slash pairing I can really see is
Methos/Duncan.
Though, I've read only ONE Richie/Duncan story I found plausible. And if done
really well, I may believe a Richie/Gregor story. But definitely not Joe. And
I agree with Paula, if the characters to don't feel right, then I don't think
the
story will hold my interest. But then I think that applies not only to slash
fiction, but also gen fiction as well. If I don't see the characters in my mind
as
I know and love them on screen when I'm reading a story, then I won't
buy the story.
~ Maria ~
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
To play is to yield oneself to a kind of magic.
----Hugo Rahner
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
<RosebudSal@aol(.)com>
http://members.aol.com/RosebudSal/index.html
Terra Ignis
>The problem is there is so little GOOD slash written for Highlander. Good
>slash is about two heterosexual characters, who find the ONE person of the
>same sex in their whole universe with whom they can (and are driven to) have
>a sexual relationship; or the ONE situation in which such an episode can
>happen between the characters. It's NOT about turning DM and Methos into
>prancing queens making cow eyes at each other.
>
I really must offer my opinion here, and I apologize if its strong
wording offends. I don't intend to flame and I certainly would not
suggest anyone change their tastes to suit my own.
However, that said.....
The above post is extremely offensive (to me and many I know, although
quite a few ATHers seem to find its homophobic rudeness humorous.)
First, I find it a bit myopic, intolerant, and fairly rude to dismiss
out of hand any slash that is not hetero. I would dearly love to know
what it is about heterosexuality that priveliges it such that only
hetero relationships are acceptable in slash stories.
Furthermore, in a later post Jette comments that Slash was 'never
meant to be about Bi's." Well, in fact, it was ORIGINALLY and is
generally about homosexual relationship. When I say this I mean that
statistically this is true..or has historically been true.
Now, anyone taking a close look at slash through the ages will note
that most is written by hetero women....and those who look carefully
may learn that the slash is more about the loving relationship than it
is about the sex. But that's another dissertation topic.
This business about good slash requiring that the characters involved
find " the ONE person of the same sex in their whole universe with
whom they can (and are driven to) have a sexual relationship; or the
ONE situation in which such an episode can happen between the
characters"....well, that may make for a good story, but if it
described ALL slash I would indeed get bored rather quickly with it.
But that's a matter of taste.
However, the statement: "It's NOT about turning DM and Methos into
prancing queens making cow eyes at each other." is seriously
problematic.
First, it inaccurately describes most bi- or homoerotic slash
Second, it's an extremely crass, rude, genderist comment that unfairly
and offensively mischaracterizes homosexuality. I was stunned the
words appeared hear at ATH, but appalled no one commented other than
to suggest this was funny.
It's not.
I agree that much fanfiction is written to the standards required for
mass publication. And thus, much slash is 'poorly' written. But, I
have always felt that fanfiction isn't always about the quality of the
prose....not so much as it's about the attempt to communicate a
feeling or idea. Express a vision of love or caring through a
relationship (hetero, homo, whatever) between the 'living' characters
of our media of choice. Or express something else...whatever...or
just to have a little fun and share oneself a bit.
Now, this is not to say that one should love slash or homo slash or
any fan fiction regardless of quality of the prose.
We each have our own tastes, and that's a good thing. Thank the gods
for this diversity. I simply see no need for insulting commentary on
this NG.
-Terra, ears burning
Christy
RE: Jette's phrase about prancing queens.
_______________________
Thanks bunches Jette! Now I have that insidious ABBA song running thru
my head with the above phrase substituted and a visual image of DM and
the ROG in white disco pantsuits complete with sequins and silk scarves
doing a Danny Terrio Dance Fever routine. <sigh>
Christy
******************************************
"For some it is performance, for others, patronage, they are two sides
of the same coin." - The Player (Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead)
ptst...@webtv.net
Oh, and thank YOU Christy for putting into the rest of our heads!
Patt
might be intersting...
"I left him for dead and buried his axe. If there was a Valhalla, I
wanted him weaponless." Duncan MacLeod --The Highlande
ptst...@webtv.net
As to Terra's comments on Jette's comment and the prancing queens making
cow eyes. If I had thought for one instant Jette was being serious, I
would have been the first to jump on her case. I did not, and maybe I
was wrong not to, I am not sure now. If it was meant seriously, you are
right Terra, it is offensive.
Perhaps I am a bit desensitized to such talk in that a great many of my
friends, having had a big interest in theatre all my life, have been
homosexual males. They talk in this way about themselves all the time.
As I have noticed other minority or ethnic groups do. I have never
cared for it, not being sure WHY it was not offensive coming from one
group and offensive from another. But it is true it happens, so I live
with it.
I have no idea what slash started out as or where it came from or where
it is going. I only know I like some of it and I don't like some of it.
And yes, I have noticed it is most often about a caring relationship,
regardless of the sexes of the participants. Which is why I am sure it
appeals to women. Even the "raw sex scenes" are loving and caring sex.
Patt
Gary J. Galasso
Hi Terra,
I had agreed with Jette on not having the characters make "cow eyes" at
each other. Let me explain why:
It's not a matter of whether a type of sex is better/worse, right/wrong
etc. Each person has his/her own judgments to make. It's a matter of
the characters being recognizably, believably the characters we know.
This applies, IMHO, to a lot of things about them: how they talk, how
they react in various situations. Would a particular character react in
a certain way or not? In other words, is it right for the character,
not a matter or whether it's right or wrong in general?
When I first learned about fanfic through this ng a few months ago, I
read a good bit of fanfic, some of it slash. I found some of the slash
very moving and wonderful at conveying a lot of the underlying emotion.
And personally I don't feel that slash has to be about people finding
the one person in the whole world they can have a same sex relationship
with.
But some of the slash, IMHO, made the characters not act the way they do
in other loving relationships that we have seen on screen. The
immediate noticeable thing was that they seemed to talk too much, going
on and on, over analyzing every nuance (kind of like me in posts
sometime <g>).
I don't mean that it turned them into "queens" or any other offensive
stereotype. But it did seem to turn them into people so obsessed with
each other and with each thought and feeling that I couldn't recognize
Methos or Mac or Joe or Richie any more.
This is by no means true of all slash, and it's certainly not true of
just slash either. There are male/female stories out there that just as
much, IMHO, have one or more of the main male characters making cow eyes
at a female character to what seems to me an exaggerated degree too.
This is JMHO, but I think really good romance and sex are mighty hard to
write. Maybe that's why I'm a coward and don't try. But I still am
going to find it out of character if in a story the main hero is making
"cow eyes" excessively at anyone, male or female.
Bottom line: does the behavior fit these characters? It applies to
things big and small: how would a reader feel about a Methos who
suddenly drinks only Coca cola and spends his time volunteering at a
soup kitchen, for example? OK, I know I'm belaboring this, but the love
scenes, slash or nonslash, need to fit the characters too.
JMHO
Jette Goldie
ptst...@webtv.net wrote in message
<68sisc$nme$1...@newsd-164.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
>As to Terra's comments on Jette's comment and the prancing queens making
>cow eyes. If I had thought for one instant Jette was being serious, I
>would have been the first to jump on her case. I did not, and maybe I
>was wrong not to, I am not sure now. If it was meant seriously, you are
>right Terra, it is offensive.
Heck, Patt, I have lots of gay friends - and most of them find the slash
fiction offensive. It is mainly written by straight females, not gay or
even bi-sexual males.
The *prancing queens* line was a quote from a *rabidly* gay friend of mine.
And Terra - how long have you been reading/writing slash fiction? My own
history only goes back about 20 years, so of course I have to go by what I
am told by those who were in at the start. By some of those who wrote the
very first Slash story (a K/S story btw)
Terra Ignis
On Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:43:26 -0000, "Jette Goldie"
>Heck, Patt, I have lots of gay friends - and most of them find the slash
>fiction offensive. It is mainly written by straight females, not gay or
>even bi-sexual males.
>
>The *prancing queens* line was a quote from a *rabidly* gay friend of mine.
>
It's hard sometimes, reading emails, posts, and chats to really have a
sense of the tone of a comment. Especially comments from folks I
haven't really met and don't know much about...other than what is sent
over the net.
So, I apologize for reacting so harshly. I must say that sitting
here in my study, reading that post I was shocked. But, I can
certainly imagine that hearing you make the same comment in person, in
a different context, knowing you better, I would likely have
giggled...prolly wouldn't have been upset at all.
It's fair to say that my sense of humor was deeply lacking when I
wrote my response.
So, I'm sorry to have overreacted. One just hears a lot of crap from
people, and I didn't know where you were coming from with your
comments (I've been seriously flamed for simply raising the issue of
slash before, so I guess I'm a little jumpy.)
All that aside. Please accept an unqualified "I'm sorry."
-Terra
RebeccaMW
>>
>> We each have our own tastes, and that's a good thing. Thank the gods
>> for this diversity. I simply see no need for insulting commentary on
>> this NG.
>>
Finally, something that I can agree with. And I think that since I am
probably the only contributor to this thread who has NEVER even read slash, my
opinion should count for something. I am not homophobic, not religious, not
prudish, and the whole genre, with or without prancing queens making cow eyes,
sounds totally ludicrous. But I think that Jette was being nothing but kind
when she spent some time trying to help me learn about this little known
subgenre hidden away here in what is a very, very small sub-culture. And you
know what.. in a world of 6.3 billion, where tragedy is the norm, NOTHING THAT
HAPPENS HERE AT ALT.TV.HIGHLANDER COULD BE ANYTHING BUT FUNNY! Furthermore, I
doubt if there is one bad soul on the whole ng. Kind, caring, funny,
articulate people, yes.... and one colossal misunderstanding.
Soon to be known as the Church Lady
Jette Goldie
Terra Ignis wrote in message <34b2d757...@news.calpha.com>...
>Dear Jette,
>
>It's hard sometimes, reading emails, posts, and chats to really have a
>sense of the tone of a comment. Especially comments from folks I
>haven't really met and don't know much about...other than what is sent
>over the net.
>
Agreed
>So, I apologize for reacting so harshly. I must say that sitting
>here in my study, reading that post I was shocked. But, I can
>certainly imagine that hearing you make the same comment in person, in
>a different context, knowing you better, I would likely have
>giggled...prolly wouldn't have been upset at all.
>
>It's fair to say that my sense of humor was deeply lacking when I
>wrote my response.
>
>So, I'm sorry to have overreacted. One just hears a lot of crap from
>people, and I didn't know where you were coming from with your
>comments (I've been seriously flamed for simply raising the issue of
>slash before, so I guess I'm a little jumpy.)
>
>All that aside. Please accept an unqualified "I'm sorry."
>
Accepted. It just made ME a little upset that you would think me a
homophobic prude. One thing I'm not is a prude <g>
(but slash is that strangely female thing - it is 99.9% written by women
(I'd say 100% but there *might* be a man out there to prove me wrong) and
99% read by women)(I'd hazard a guess that it is the female equivilent of
the male fantasy of two lesbians wanting a threesome with *him*)
Terra Ignis
On Tue, 06 Jan 1998 05:24:53 -0500, "Gary J. Galasso"
<Gary.G...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>It's not a matter of whether a type of sex is better/worse, right/wrong
>etc. Each person has his/her own judgments to make. It's a matter of
>the characters being recognizably, believably the characters we know.
>This applies, IMHO, to a lot of things about them: how they talk, how
>they react in various situations. Would a particular character react in
>a certain way or not? In other words, is it right for the character,
>not a matter or whether it's right or wrong in general?
>
**snip** a lot of things that make perfect sense.
Mary,
I agree wholeheartedly with you. At this point I'm writing my tirade
off as a hormonal glitch and tossing apologies every which way.
Once again, I'm sorry, and I thank the folks who responded for
pinching my cheeks a bit. I needed it.
-Terra
Gary J. Galasso
Terra Ignis wrote:
>
> On Tue, 06 Jan 1998 05:24:53 -0500, "Gary J. Galasso"
> <Gary.G...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> >etc. Each person has his/her own judgments to make. It's a matter of
> >the characters being recognizably, believably the characters we know.
> >This applies, IMHO, to a lot of things about them: how they talk, how
> >they react in various situations. Would a particular character react in
> >a certain way or not? In other words, is it right for the character,
> >not a matter or whether it's right or wrong in general?
> >
>
>
> Mary,
>
> I agree wholeheartedly with you. At this point I'm writing my tirade
> off as a hormonal glitch and tossing apologies every which way.
>
> Once again, I'm sorry, and I thank the folks who responded for
> pinching my cheeks a bit. I needed it.
>
> -Terra
Hi Terra,
People who can genuinely say they're sorry are some of my most favorite
people in the world. The ng, IMHO, is very lucky to have you.
Cheers,
Wendy Bennett
We Librans hate confict so I have kept my
mouth and keyboard shut on what Jette
wrote about slash, and Terra's reply.
Like Rebecca, I think just about everyone
on this ng means well and doesn't want
to hurt anyone's feelings. That said, it's
important for me to note that continuing
stereotypes of ANY group is really
harmful, in my opinion. In the case of
slash it is gay people. Whether
someone has ever written or read slash
does not matter to me.
People often say that their friends are gay
or African-American, etc and THEY use
all kinds of words to describe themselves.
Although this has never made sense to me,
the point is that if you are not gay, or
whatever, you can't use those words.
If a "rabidly" gay person wants to use
words like queens or prancing, s/he
can. If you are not a member of that
group it is promoting bad feelings
and old prejudices to use descriptions
with negative connotations.
Nothing made this clearer to me than an
OPRAH show in which she talked with
people about the use of words or phrases
to describe African-Americans. I agree
with Oprah that using in-group words
when your not in-the-group is never
all right.
I know this post sounds pedantic but I
stand by it. I'm offended to hear the
phrase prancing queens, and I always will
be. As a member of the American Baby
Boomer generation I grew up with Live and
Let Live. One step further, as an activist,
is don't promote negative stereotypes.
I don't make derogatory statements about
my Italian heritage and I don't want to hear
any from anyone else, either.
I hope everyone on the ng understands
this is not a personal flame. It's a
statement of my personal and political
belief that we, all 6.3 billion (or so) of us have
an obligation to make this world better.
Those of us who are so privileged to have
TV's and Internet services have even more
of a duty in this area. If nothing more,
First Do No Harm. Speech over. Thank
you for listening.
Wendy
Gary J. Galasso
Hi,
I know I'm going to regret getting deeper into this, but here goes:
IMHO Terra's right that references to "prancing queens" are
stereotypical, and Wendy's right that whether such references come from
the stereotyped group or not, they are still offensive. Jette's basic
point about the characters in fanfic needing to be fairly consistent
with their tv depictions is, IMHO, also valid. It doesn't negate the
possibility of slash, but it does mean slash DM etc. still needs to act
and talk a lot like tv DM, for example.
Terra gets my applause in the whole business for caring about
stereotyping and saying so and for also being generous with apologies.
Quite probably no apologies were necessary--certainly I didn't need or
deserve one--but it was admirable to see that she'd go the extra mile
just in case. Anyway, my hat's off to her.
Taking this in a slightly different direction, and not meaning this as
justification or excuse for anything anyone said, I keep getting struck
by an irony in our situation. My computer comes on to the music of
"Queen", and the second blooper reel has more than enough of AP making
exactly the kind of stereotypical "prancing queen" joke I hope we're in
basic agreement is offensive. For that matter, I wrote Davis Panzer two
summers ago strongly objecting to an AP joke in the first blooper reel
that I considered very crude sexual harrassment of a young woman extra
in the "Turnabout" episode. The fact that she laughed at the joke,
might have appreciated the attention from the star, and may be thrilled
to be immortalized on tape discovering the actor's little "medical
problem" doesn't make it any less sexually offensive, IMHO (which comes
in part from a background where as a young woman in a male field I
laughed at a lot of things I didn't necessarily think were funny at
all).
Anyway, I don't mean any of this rant as an excuse or apology for any
offensive language about any group. It's just ironic that AP himself
does exactly what we decry, and seems perfectly comfortable being
immortalized on tape in the process.
Mary
ptst...@webtv.net
Excellent post Mary. Yes, it is hard to know exactly where things are
coming from. Like I said in my earlier post on the subject, I reacted,
on first reading Jette's post in a way appropriate to my life. That was
with total humor. But Terra, who did not really know Jette that well,
took the exact same words in a different way. Each of us in turn, when
shown the others point, could see it from the others point of view. It
does make things hard. Such things are hard enough in person. But one
simply can't get too crazy about what you say and don't. You would
never post anything if you were constantly second guesing yourself. But
I don't think any of the regulars and semi-regulars on this ng would
purposely set out to put anyone down or be offensive.
As to AP and his bloopers. This one is one I feel a bit more in a place
to answer. I meant what I said about gay men and the talk they use.
Since AP has been in theatre and modeling and dance all his adult life,
one must assume HE hears it too. I do not KNOW this, obviously, since I
don't know him any more than any of the rest of you, but I suspect he
would not have done such a thing if he thought he was offending anyone.
He was doing it in front of a live audience with a MUCH higher
percentange of gay and bi men than the audience of the final bloopers.
And remember, if we saw these few bloopers, he probably did it more
often.
One last thing on the bloopers. I thought all but one of the bloopers
was totally humorous. There was one pranceing queen portrayal I found,
not offensive exactly, but not really funny either. Just gut reaction,
and my guts are usually right on such things.
Velia Tanner and Friends
In article <692i0g$m...@mtinsc05.worldnet.att.net> Gary.G...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net writes:
>Taking this in a slightly different direction, and not meaning this as
>justification or excuse for anything anyone said, I keep getting struck
>by an irony in our situation. My computer comes on to the music of
>"Queen", and the second blooper reel has more than enough of AP making
>exactly the kind of stereotypical "prancing queen" joke I hope we're in
>basic agreement is offensive. For that matter, I wrote Davis Panzer two
>summers ago strongly objecting to an AP joke in the first blooper reel
>that I considered very crude sexual harrassment of a young woman extra
>in the "Turnabout" episode. The fact that she laughed at the joke,
>might have appreciated the attention from the star, and may be thrilled
>to be immortalized on tape discovering the actor's little "medical
>problem" doesn't make it any less sexually offensive, IMHO (which comes
>in part from a background where as a young woman in a male field I
>laughed at a lot of things I didn't necessarily think were funny at
>all).
Not disagreeing with your take on that joke (I don't think it's that funny,
myself, either), I just want to mention that the "extra" was actually a crew
member, not just someone off the street -- I think AP was trying to crack
her up just out of a "mess with your friend's head" attitude, not disrespect
of her feelings.
The question of crude humor in a mixed-gender workplace is a difficult one.
In the field I work in, we work hard, long hours in close quarters -- we
refer to it as "in the trenches." Sometimes it feels like we're the guys
on M*A*S*H -- that the only way to make it through the day is by laughing
instead of crying. While my male co-workers might occasionally make a joke
or reference that isn't funny to me, I *don't* want them to feel like they
have to watch their mouths because there's a "lady present" -- I sort of
feel like requiring people to "behave better" in the presence of femae
co-workers would just be giving validation to those (increasingly rare)
people who don't want to work with women 'cause it 'ruins' the atmosphere.
--
=========================================================================
Betcha on land, they understand; bet they don't reprimand their daughters
Bright young women, sick of swimmin', ready to stand...
-- The Little Mermaid ||ve...@netcom.com||
==========================================================================
Naomi A. Rose
In article <692i0g$m...@mtinsc05.worldnet.att.net>,
"Gary J. Galasso" <Gary.G...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
*snip*
I haven't been following this thread at all. I checked out the last
few posts and found a very serious debate going on. I hate it when that
happens :-).
Anyway, Mary said:
>Taking this in a slightly different direction, and not meaning this as
>justification or excuse for anything anyone said, I keep getting struck
>by an irony in our situation. My computer comes on to the music of
>"Queen", and the second blooper reel has more than enough of AP making
>exactly the kind of stereotypical "prancing queen" joke I hope we're in
>basic agreement is offensive. For that matter, I wrote Davis Panzer two
>summers ago strongly objecting to an AP joke in the first blooper reel
>that I considered very crude sexual harrassment of a young woman extra
>in the "Turnabout" episode. The fact that she laughed at the joke,
>might have appreciated the attention from the star, and may be thrilled
>to be immortalized on tape discovering the actor's little "medical
>problem" doesn't make it any less sexually offensive, IMHO (which comes
>in part from a background where as a young woman in a male field I
>laughed at a lot of things I didn't necessarily think were funny at
>all).
>
>Anyway, I don't mean any of this rant as an excuse or apology for any
>offensive language about any group. It's just ironic that AP himself
>does exactly what we decry, and seems perfectly comfortable being
>immortalized on tape in the process.
>
>Mary
>
>--
>http://home.att.net/~gary.galasso/
It's strange how different people view different things. I thought that
prank that AP pulled on the woman extra was really very funny. Stupid
but funny, in an "in-joke" kind of way. I work with a bunch of folks
that are pretty raunchy in their daily banter. One man in particular is
border-line offensive to women, but I think he's a riot. I never take
anything he says as offensive. Now it's true he wouldn't say those same
things in public (and nothing is more public than a blooper reel that's
sold for $9.95 through a catalog), but still, people outside our group
hear him say these things now and again. And some are offended. That's
their privilege and his problem. But he's a great guy, extremely
sensitive to women and women's issues, in fact, and if those people who
were offended decided to write him off as a jerk because of his jokes,
they'd be missing knowing a very cool guy. When I'm discriminated
against, I know it. When someone says something sexist deliberately to
offend me, I know that too. When a friend "harasses" me for a joke, I
I know it for a joke and I laugh and it's genuine.
I don't really know where I'm going with this. I guess I'm just saying
that AP is clearly a pretty raunchy guy. That's who he is. Take him or
leave him. If he offends you with his schtick (and some of it *is*
puerile and certainly could be considered offensive by many), that's
your privilege and his problem. But I think there's a lot more there
than the schtick. But then again, I don't really know. I guess I'm
basing this assumption on his reputation for graciousness and
professionalism. That still doesn't say much about the private man, of
course.
Naomi
RebeccaMW
I have no idea what to snip here. But I did want to say that we all do things
that someone will find offensive. I find that raunchy sexual comments make me
uncomfortable, so I seldomly make them. But in my line of work we constantly
joke in what could be percieved to be a harsh and cruel way about quadraplegics
and people in persistent vegatative states. My case load is made up of
unfortunate victims of spinal cord injuries, head trauma, massive burns, organ
transplants, AIDS, psychosis... well you get the idea. I have no doubt that if
any one of you walked in when my co-workers and I were in "fine form" you
would be disguisted and quite convinced that I was a creep of the highest
degree. The sociology and psychology of humor is enigmatic at best. I don't
profess to understand it. But what I do know, is that life, without the
ability to joke, would be unbearable. I suspect that my relative intollerance
for raunchy sexual humor says more about me than it does about person who makes
a "comment". And I think the we have all decried the effect that excessive
political correctness has on our right and need to be individual. So instead
of outrage at "insensitive comments or actions" why don't we celebrate our
great diversity.
DebiKM
In article <19980109040...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, rebe...@aol.com
(RebeccaMW) writes:
>I have no doubt that if
any one of you walked in when my co-workers and I
>were in "fine form" you
would be disguisted and quite convinced that I was a
>creep of the highest
degree. The sociology and psychology of humor is
>enigmatic at best. I don't
profess to understand it. But what I do know,
>is that life, without the
ability to joke, would be unbearable.
I work for a veterinarian and we crack jokes all the time that would likely
have the Humane Society rushing in to rescue all those poor, defenseless
animals from us! (Good thing I posted this after Naomi's gone to France, eh?)
There are days when I go in there that, if I didn't joke about it, I would
probably go crazy. You have to do something to deal with the stress and tragedy
that sometimes accompanies any activity; some of crack jokes, often of a sexual
nature (guilty as charged).
Debi (boingboingboing)
"With the ebb, With the flow,
As it was, As it is,
As it shall be, With the ebb, With the flow."
--Ancient Gaelic saying
Sheila Schnorr
DebiKM wrote:
> (RebeccaMW) writes:
>
> >I have no doubt that if any one of you walked in when my co-workers and I were
> in "fine form" you would be disguisted and quite convinced that I was a creep of
> the highest degree. The sociology and psychology of humor is enigmatic at
> best. I don't
> profess to understand it. But what I do know, is that life, without the ability
> to joke, would be unbearable.
>
> I work for a veterinarian and we crack jokes all the time that would likely
> have the Humane Society rushing in to rescue all those poor, defenseless
> animals from us! (Good thing I posted this after Naomi's gone to France, eh?)
> There are days when I go in there that, if I didn't joke about it, I would
> probably go crazy. You have to do something to deal with the stress and tragedy
> that sometimes accompanies any activity; some of crack jokes, often of a sexual
> nature (guilty as charged).
>
> Debi (boingboingboing)
> "With the ebb, With the flow,
> As it was, As it is,
> As it shall be, With the ebb, With the flow."
>
> --Ancient Gaelic saying
I think it's one of the twists of human nature to alleviate an uncomfortable
situation with humor - not intended to be cruel, but it can be taken that way by
onlookers. Rebecca and Debi both remind me of my EMT days volunteering in the ER.
You should hear the ER crew at about 3 AM on a Saturday night. Add a full moon
into the equation, and you can only tell the wild patients from the wild crew by
their injuries.<g> It is a stress reliever, and it does help shield the workers
from the constant flow of pain and tragedy. I've often thought that "ethnic" jokes
made by those inside that particular group are a similar shield - an attempt to not
take themselves too seriously, perhaps. I had a really terrific guy who worked for
me who made the worst, most flambouyant "gay" jokes about himself and his friends
(along the lines of the "prancing queens" sort of thing...) and from him, it wasn't
at all offensive. He made you laugh with him, which is infinitely different than
an outsider making the same comments out of cruelty. I think it comes down to
intent. And even though I haven't been hanging out here in the ng very long, it's
pretty clear that we're a kind, friendly group of Highlander obsessed people who
don't want to hurt or offend each other. I will now climb off my soapbox and
return this ng to its discussion of important HL subjects....
Sheila
Terra Ignis
On Thu, 8 Jan 1998 12:09:02 -0500, ptst...@webtv.net wrote:
>Excellent post Mary. Yes, it is hard to know exactly where things are
>coming from. Like I said in my earlier post on the subject, I reacted,
>on first reading Jette's post in a way appropriate to my life. That was
>with total humor. But Terra, who did not really know Jette that well,
>took the exact same words in a different way. Each of us in turn, when
>shown the others point, could see it from the others point of view. It
>does make things hard.
**snip**
> I meant what I said about gay men and the talk they use.
>Since AP has been in theatre and modeling and dance all his adult life,
>one must assume HE hears it too. I do not KNOW this, obviously, since I
>don't know him any more than any of the rest of you, but I suspect he
>would not have done such a thing if he thought he was offending anyone.
This is, I think, immensly relevant to my initial reaction. When
using racy humor (and I, like so many others who have posted, feel
[racy] humor is a tremendously cathartic way of expression ourselves)
context is supremely important. My mistake was in not knowing the
context of this NG, and thus speaking in ignorance. Therefore, I
apologized and stick to that apology.
However,
The business about "I know gay men who speak just like that and they
are good friends" doesn't really strike me as being a terribly potent
argument. Sure, gay men ( and *GOD KNOWS* lesbians) speak about
themselves in ways that would have the PC police calling in the ATF.
However, that doesn't mean any old person can make any old comment and
justify it as humor similar to that which the gay folks use. (I'm
*not* saying that was done in this NG....just taking the argument to
its conclusion) In fact, gay folks would generally only say things
like that in a friendly context among people who could handle it. As
someone mentioned in an earlier post, there is an "in-group/out-group
dynamic" involved that is not only socially important but is seriously
regarded by the in-groups concerned.
The easiest example is this: I bet very few of us would have said in
the recent thread about Charlie, "He was one tough nigger!"
Well, we could argue, hey, my best friend/boy-friend/co-worker is
black and he talks like that. But, we wouldn't offer this argument.
We [hopefully] understand that that's a word seriously loaded with
painful and pejorative meaning that has been appropriated by those
whom it was aimed at.
Anyway, whatever one thinks of the word or its use by
African-Americans, we wouldn't use it here. Unless we quoted someone.
Then we would write, "N-Word."
So, that's my philosophy. I find it ironic this has all come about,
because most of my friends find *my* humor to be a bit edgy. But,
that's how it turned out.
Anyway, I'm sorry to have made a fuss, but, happily, a nice
conversation resulted. Thanks to all the folks who sent me messages
reassuring me I had misunderstood. I'll try to get to know everyone
better so I can better read between the lines.
:)
-Terra
ptst...@webtv.net
Hey! Apologize for misunderstanding, but NEVER apologize for standing
up for something you think is wrong! NEVER! How the heck do you think
Hitler got so far? The grace to apologize when you find out you
misuderstood is great, but don't ever not voice an opinion.
When I mentioned the gay men using this talk, I only meant I was used to
hearing it, so it did not hit me in the same way it would someone who
does not. And even though under some circumstances I might be "allowed"
to use such phrases, I would not. I still find them strange, even
coming from gay men.
But you are right about intent. My big example of this I use to make a
point about this exact subject is a made for TV movie I saw a while
back. This young white girl meets her first African American man and
asks him if he is "a nigger". He corrects her and says is it "nergro"
(this was set in the 1930's south). She called him that simply cos she
had never heard them called anything else. She had no idea it was a put
down, only the name of a race of people. So her use of that word had no
meanness behind it. Once she has been correted (politely) she never
uses the word again.
I also feel that way about swearing. Back when there was a discussion
about it. When a person swears everyother word, it loses it's meaning.
I mean, swearing is meant to emphasize something. If you do it all the
time, it loses that. But belive me, from a person who does not really
swear much, if you don't swear and all of a sudden you DO, people
notice!
Patt
"I left him for dead and buried his axe. If there was a Valhalla, I
wanted him weaponless." Duncan MacLeod -- The Highlander