now how'd you know I'd read this??  yes, while I am an advid reader of
DM/M stories (& will praise Paige to the highest levels) DM/CM,
CM/Rameriez, RR/DM stories will make me run real fast & as Jette is so
quick to point out, Joe don't do slash!!  hell, I even like the couple
methos/amanda things i've found -- BUT the point to all this that first,
before anything, it must be well written & hold true to character.

Quite right, SteveiAnn.  CM and DM not biological relatives at all, that
we know of.  But moraly may be another question.  Like step siblings.
May not be blood related, but often feel they are sisters and brothers.

Patt

Paula Behanna <apbeha...@webtv.net> wrote in article
<6874s5$9j...@newsd-151.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
: now how'd you know I'd read this??  

to quote Connor: heh heh heh

: yes, while I am an advid reader of
: DM/M stories (& will praise Paige to the highest levels) DM/CM,
: CM/Rameriez, RR/DM stories will make me run real fast & as Jette is so
: quick to point out, Joe don't do slash!!  hell, I even like the couple
: methos/amanda things i've found -- BUT the point to all this that first,
: before anything, it must be well written & hold true to character.

Yup, if the characters aren't true, then it's just original fiction, not
fanfic.  Slash isn't for everybody and I didn't even know it existed until
I hit this ng a few months ago.  I see it as an extension of the show,
something that explores not just different relationships but  other
aspects of the characters that the show hasn't covered.  It can also be an
exploration of the a different path, a fork in the road after some
particular episode.  Plus, in the middle of rerun h*ll and the upcoming
end of the show and god knows when the movie will be out, it provides new
HL stories for me.
:
: APB
: Lady Paula of Queen Patt's gutter court: reasercher, collector, &
: distributor of the royal slash
: Knight-Presumptive  Methos Boxer Brigade
: List Mom -- The Unattainables.
: *******************************
: .. from a mind so twisted, it's actually sprained.....
: -------------------------------------------
: not a morning person doesn't begin to cover it!!
:
--
StevieAnn
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch
 - Anonymous

ptsta...@webtv.net wrote in article
<6875qa$p6...@newsd-161.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
: Quite right, SteveiAnn.  CM and DM not biological relatives at all, that
: we know of.  But moraly may be another question.  Like step siblings.
: May not be blood related, but often feel they are sisters and brothers.
:
: Patt

*sisters and brothers*?  now I've got a pic of DM in that dress when he
was doing Shakespeare with Connor planting a wet one on his cheek! <g>

--
StevieAnn
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch
 - Anonymous

Absolutely do not agree that Joe doesn't do slash.  IMAO he definitely does.
I've been seeing  DM/JD scenarios since the end of the 4th season and I have
friends who have the same idea.

RebeccaMW <rebecc...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19971229072001.CAA05...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
: >
: >Absolutely do not agree that Joe doesn't do slash.  IMAO he definitely
does.
: >I've been seeing  DM/JD scenarios since the end of the 4th season and I
have
: >friends who have the same idea.
: >
: >                                       SHOMERET
: >
: Listen, buddy,   I may not even know what slash is,  BUT if Jette says
that Joe
: doesn't do slash, then JOE DOEN'T DO SLASH.  Cause anyone with half a
brain
: know that Jette knows Joe better than any of us could ever hope to.<g>
:
: Rebecca
: A victim of the world wide Celtic diaspora.  Denied my heritage!  Denied
the
: Scottish Highlands! Plan to hold the grudge forever!

I second this!  (and I do know slash <g>)  <eek> DM/JD <shudder> (of
course, I never understood that Kirk/Spock thing either <ack>)  jmho, of
course.

--
StevieAnn
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch
 - Anonymous

Jette Goldie <bossl...@ednet.co.uk> wrote in article
<6892t0$di...@monteverdi.ednet.co.uk>...
:
: <snip>
: The problem is there is so little GOOD slash written for Highlander.
Good
: slash is about two heterosexual characters, who find the ONE person of
the
: same sex in their whole universe with whom they can (and are driven to)
have
: a sexual relationship; or the ONE situation in which such an episode can
: happen between the characters.  It's NOT about turning DM and Methos
into
: prancing queens making cow eyes at each other.
:
: Bad slash bores the pants off me - and I get AWFUL bored these days.
:
: Jette Goldie (Joe's my jo!) bossl...@ednet.co.uk
<sigsnip>

Exactly!  There you go, Rebecca, that's a good explanation of slash!
Thanks, Jette!

--
StevieAnn (who is slowly discovering just how boring bad slash can be
<ick>)
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch
 - Anonymous

Kirk/Spock slash?  My opinion?

ACK!  ACK!  <gag> <cough, cough> BLECK!  <shudder>  PIT-TOOIE!!!  <spit,
spit, spit>  <shudder again>

Patt
who even thought it might be even close to erotic?  Huh?  I hope they
are locked up tight somewhere!

ptsta...@webtv.net wrote in article
<6894pc$so...@newsd-162.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
: Kirk/Spock slash?  My opinion?
:
: ACK!  ACK!  <gag> <cough, cough> BLECK!  <shudder>  PIT-TOOIE!!!  <spit,
: spit, spit>  <shudder again>
:
: Patt
: who even thought it might be even close to erotic?  Huh?  I hope they
: are locked up tight somewhere!
:
<patting Patt on the back> sorry didn't mean to make you get all worked up
there.  Hope you weren't eating anything!  I had that same reaction too,
luckily I found HL slash before I ever heard of K/S or I might never have
touched the stuff!

--
StevieAnn (still shaking head at that K/S stuff)
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch
 - Anonymous

Jette, first I totally agree with you.  But that line!  "Prancing queens
making dcow eyes at each other"?  LOL!!!!  

I totally agree.  It is just not something I see as a lifestyle, except
as you say, with that one person, for DM or Joe.  Methos I can see as bi
with no problem.

Patt

WOW, my weeks complete already, Jette resopnded to a post of mine <G>!!
ya'll should've been around the night I first told Patt about K/S
stories!!  talk about a meltdown --  she had been reading DM/M stuff for
awhile, but this neither of us can handle!!

But, I'll agree with Jette on this point, to many slash writer are
trying to damn hard to be "different".  there's a bunch of both gen &
slash stories that (no one get pissy about this PLEASE!!) stink!!  but
when you find that gem, it's worth all the trash that came before.
JMHO.

Oh, c'mon!  K/S is *the original slash.*  And granted, most of it is bad,
but there are some good stories out there.

--
Claire Maier   bioaw...@emory.edu   CLMaier (within AOL only)

As one of those original slashers who started with K/S in 1977, I really have
to say that it's a matter of taste.  What is a self-evident slash relationship
to one fan is absolute anathema to another  Until I started imagining a DM/JD
slash relationship, HL was just another series for me.  The intensity of their
interaction has just blown me away..  I see no reason why Joe can't be bi.  The
HL character that I'd never place in a slash story is Richie.  Now there's a
man who's got to be 100% heterosexual.

In article <6874s5$9j...@newsd-151.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, apbeha...@webtv.net

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
To play is to yield oneself to a kind of magic.
         ----Hugo Rahner
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

On Mon, 29 Dec 1997 20:53:18 -0000, "Jette Goldie"

However, that said.....

The above post is extremely offensive (to me and many I know, although
quite a few ATHers seem to find its homophobic rudeness humorous.)

First, I find it a bit myopic, intolerant, and fairly rude to dismiss
out of hand any slash that is not hetero.  I would dearly love to know
what it is about heterosexuality that priveliges it such that only
hetero relationships are acceptable in slash stories.  

Furthermore, in a later post Jette comments that Slash was 'never
meant to be about Bi's."  Well, in fact, it was ORIGINALLY and is
generally about homosexual relationship.  When I say this I mean that
statistically this is true..or has historically been true.

Now, anyone taking a close look at slash through the ages will note
that most is written by hetero women....and those who look carefully
may learn that the slash is more about the loving relationship than it
is about the sex.  But that's another dissertation topic.

This business about good slash requiring that the characters involved
find " the ONE person of the same sex in their whole universe with
whom they can (and are driven to) have a sexual relationship; or the
ONE situation in which such an episode can happen between the
characters"....well, that may make for a good story, but if it
described ALL slash I would indeed get bored rather quickly with it.

But that's a matter of taste.

However, the statement: "It's NOT about turning DM and Methos into
prancing queens making cow eyes at each other." is seriously
problematic.

First, it inaccurately describes most bi- or homoerotic slash

Second, it's an extremely crass, rude, genderist comment that unfairly
and offensively mischaracterizes homosexuality.  I was stunned the
words appeared hear at ATH, but appalled no one commented other than
to suggest this was funny.  

It's not.

I agree that much fanfiction is written to the standards required for
mass publication.  And thus, much slash is 'poorly' written.  But, I
have always felt that fanfiction isn't always about the quality of the
prose....not so much as it's about the attempt to communicate a
feeling or idea.  Express a vision of love or caring through a
relationship (hetero, homo, whatever) between the 'living' characters
of our media of choice.  Or express something else...whatever...or
just to have a little fun and share oneself a bit.  

Now, this is not to say that one should love slash or homo slash or
any fan fiction regardless of quality of the prose.

We each have our own tastes, and that's a good thing.  Thank the gods
for this diversity.  I simply see no need for insulting commentary on
this NG.

RE: Jette's phrase about prancing queens.
_______________________

Thanks bunches Jette!  Now I have that insidious ABBA song running thru
my head with the above phrase substituted and a visual image of DM and
the ROG in white disco pantsuits complete with sequins and silk scarves
doing a Danny Terrio Dance Fever routine.  <sigh>

Christy  

Oh, and thank YOU Christy for putting into the rest of our heads!

Patt
might be intersting...

As to Terra's comments on Jette's comment and the prancing queens making
cow eyes.  If I had thought for one instant Jette was being serious, I
would have been the first to jump on her case.  I did not, and maybe I
was wrong not to, I am not sure now.  If it was meant seriously, you are
right Terra, it is offensive.  

Perhaps I am a bit desensitized to such talk in that a great many of my
friends, having had a big interest in theatre all my life, have been
homosexual males.  They talk in this way about themselves all the time.
As I have noticed other minority or ethnic groups do.  I have never
cared for it, not being sure WHY it was not offensive coming from one
group and offensive from another.  But it is true it happens, so I live
with it.

I have no idea what slash started out as or where it came from or where
it is going.  I only know I like some of it and I don't like some of it.
And yes, I have noticed it is most often about a caring relationship,
regardless of the sexes of the participants.  Which is why I am sure it
appeals to women.  Even the "raw sex scenes" are loving and caring sex.

Patt

I had agreed with Jette on not having the characters make "cow eyes" at
each other.  Let me explain why:

It's not a matter of whether a type of sex is better/worse, right/wrong
etc.  Each person has his/her own judgments to make.  It's a matter of
the characters being recognizably, believably the characters we know.
This applies, IMHO, to a lot of things about them: how they talk, how
they react in various situations.  Would a particular character react in
a certain way or not?  In other words, is it right for the character,
not a matter or whether it's right or wrong in general?

When I first learned about fanfic through this ng a few months ago, I
read a good bit of fanfic, some of it slash.  I found some of the slash
very moving and wonderful at conveying a lot of the underlying emotion.
And personally I don't feel that slash has to be about people finding
the one person in the whole world they can have a same sex relationship
with.

But some of the slash, IMHO, made the characters not act the way they do
in other loving relationships that we have seen on screen.  The
immediate noticeable thing was that they seemed to talk too much, going
on and on, over analyzing every nuance (kind of like me in posts
sometime <g>).

I don't mean that it turned them into "queens" or any other offensive
stereotype. But it did seem to turn them into people so obsessed with
each other and with each thought and feeling that I couldn't recognize
Methos or Mac or Joe or Richie any more.

This is by no means true of all slash, and it's certainly not true of
just slash either.  There are male/female stories out there that just as
much, IMHO, have one or more of the main male characters making cow eyes
at a female character to what seems to me an exaggerated degree too.

This is JMHO, but I think really good romance and sex are mighty hard to
write.  Maybe that's why I'm a coward and don't try.  But I still am
going to find it out of character if in a story the main hero is making
"cow eyes" excessively at anyone, male or female.

Bottom line: does the behavior fit these characters?  It applies to
things big and small: how would a reader feel about a Methos who
suddenly drinks only Coca cola and spends his time volunteering at a
soup kitchen, for example?  OK, I know I'm belaboring this, but the love
scenes, slash or nonslash, need to fit the characters too.

JMHO