AOQ Firefly Review 12: "The Message"
Arbitrar Of Quality
Season One, Episode 12: "The Message"
(or "How much for just the kidneys?")
Writers: Joss Whedon and Tim Minear
Director: Tim Minear
This one opens aboard a space mall of sorts, where the characters hang
around having moments before anything of note happens. And there're
still carnival barkers peddling their space aliens. It's one of those
moment-filled episodes, full of little details for those wishing to
soak up every last bit available of the soon-to-be-eliminated
Fireflyverse, and particularly bits about individual members of the
main cast. Here Simon and Kaylee get a scene together that's pretty
much exactly the same routine they go through every other week: Kaylee
enjoys the flattery, Simon says the wrong thing, she walks away in a
huff, a crisis brings them together. Bored now. Meanwhile, "Trash"
didn't make our heroes rich, as it turns out, and there's some
interesting professional affection between Mal and Inara in the
meantime. Finally, to cap off the unrelated into stuff, I'd like to
point out what may be my personal favorite five-second bit of the
series: a mystified River staring at her "ice planet," deadpanning the
classic line "my food is problematic." River is so much fun to watch
in these later episodes.
Kippah Guy has packages for our heroes, and there's a realistic amount
of cross-talk as Jayne struggles with his mom's letter (he's using
some of his money to support his family? Awww...) while Mal and Zoe are
cracking open their box. Jayne emerges with the legendarily cunning
hat, an episode-long gag that gets paid off in a big way at the end.
(Along the way, he'll often remove it at appropriate times; throughout
TM, Jayne's very crudeness makes gestures like that seem more
meaningful, a great vibe for the character.) Meanwhile, we see our
guest star's lifeless face (insert a joke about one of Woodward's
characters on the vampire shows, if you must), we end the teaser with
another good joke (see Quotes Worth Quoting), and then we flash back.
On first viewing, I was afraid that the episode would be one of those
that jumps back and forth in time, which wouldn't have been that
interesting in this case. Instead, it limits its past stories to a
single sequence in which Tracey is out of his league and with his army
pals. All sorts of background details are I'm sure going unnoticed by
me (the commentary points out the huge Buddha with its head blown
off). This part starts very well, with Zoe slitting the guy's throat
and impressing us with her ability to be even more deadpan and stony
than in her old age, dispensing sage advice... and then Mal runs into
the scene and is careful to contradict every bit of what she says
("I'm over here!"). Great stuff. But from there things drag on, and
the sequence continues what feels like another five minutes; no,
mentioning the lieutenant's situation and throwing in yet another
reference to that damn saying aren't worth all that much, really.
How does our crew face death and rebirth? Again, tidbits of
characters in ones and twos. Jayne wanting to feel alive, River
comfortably soaking up the moods, that kind of thing. It's all worth
seeing once. Meanwhile, Kaylee's strongly physically attracted to
Tracey, which makes sense, but the episode doesn't really want to go
much of anywhere with that. Tracey himself, after a great startling
moment of return to the world of the living, is now acting as an organ
farm. He's more or less a stock character, the nervous guy who turns
to the criminal element out of perceived necessity (generally to help
family), gets in over his head, and winds up killed.
The futuristic cola commercial makes me kinda happy. And although
it's pure dumb action movie villain stuff, I do think Womack's
interrogation of Kippah Guy is surprisingly effective. The actor,
speaking in sort of a lazy Midwestern accent, seems totally convincing
with his casual cruelty, and I remember actually worrying about
whether or not he was really going to light that fire.
One thing that I find slightly bothersome, although it doesn't impair
the in-the-moment viewing experience very much, is something the cast
and crew chuckle about in several episode commentaries: the change in
Wash's behavior. Supposedly, Tim (and Alan Tudyk) liked the idea of
him yelling and whooping and generally being a lunatic in a stressful
flying situation, despite having established him as calm under
pressure in "Serenity." Joss and Tim then had a typical ME
conversation along the lines of: "so, we're throwing that away for the
sake of a joke?" "Yep." "Cool!" I can't support the choice. The
Wash we saw in the climax of "Serenity" jumped out, the hero of the
sequence, making us take a new look at the dinosaur guy, and it's a
shame to lose him. The reason it doesn't seem so important in the
moment is that this is an exciting part anyway, especially the falling
ice: incredible visuals, real sense of speed and vertigo, use of three-
dimensional space, the whole deal. _Firefly_ so does not look a low-
budget show right now.
Plus, the whole time the ship is shaking to pieces, Book has his
moment of coming off as really damn cool, picking up on things that a
typical monastery-dweller has no business knowing about and coming up
with an unexpected way to save the situation. That in itself is a
well done piece of plotting. But the way it's portrayed is part of
the absolute mess that the last third or so of "The Message" makes of
its plot. Since the writers don't want the audience to know what our
heroes have in mind, we're apparently meant to believe that Mal and
the good shepherd signal each other with their eyes, "Becoming" style,
and work it out on the spot. I have no idea how the hell Mal can be
expected to get "I somehow can tell that this guy doesn't have the
legal backing he thinks he does, let's land and then let him know
about it after he boards" from a meaningful gaze. The fragments of
stuff that the characters say out loud seem specifically hand-picked
to make anyone listening in get as wrong an impression as possible.
Then there's a gun standoff in which the characters tell Tracey to
calm down but never give him the quick phrase that might lead to the
chance to get through to him: I'd suggest "hey, we have a plan" or
"we're not really going to turn you over" as a starting point.
Instead, Mal puts Wash in a situation to get himself shot before
someone finally shoots Tracey. Then we have *another* standoff, a
slow one in which there's plenty of time to spell everything out, but
instead the characters choose to trade clunky "meaningful" dialogue.
Finally that resolves with an instant replay of the scene on the
bridge, ending basically the same way. The show wants us to think
that he hanged himself (figuratively), but it's more like Mal's making
a concerted effort at every turn to make sure he doesn't survive the
episode. Which now I'm thinking may have even been the intention -
Mal decides Tracey's a danger and puts him down - but if that's even
what they were going for, it should've been made much less opaque.
Other than maybe "Shindig" (which always stayed entertaining), this is
_Firefly_'s most inept foray into the realm of the idiot plot. I do
appreciate the back-and-forth about who's playing whom and such, but
it's buried in said idiot plot and can't be separated from it. The
attempts at twists tinged with chaos also submerge the personalities
involved, so that I don't end up feeling anything for either Tracey or
those who end up carrying him. And I'm quite tired of the titular
message by about the fourteenth time we hear it.
Quotes Worth Quoting, albeit slightly less so than "my food is
problematic:"
- "Do not fear me. Ours is a peaceful race, and we must live in
harmony..."
- "A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not
afraid of anything"
- "What'd you all order a dead guy for?"
- "This is your captain speaking. Sit down and hang on to something"
So...
One-sentence summary: Interesting pieces, badly flawed whole.
AOQ rating: Decent
[Ratings so far:
1) "Serenity" - Excellent
2) "The Train Job" - Good
3) "Bushwhacked" - Decent
4) "Shindig" - Good
5) "Safe" - Decent
6) "Our Mrs. Reynolds" - Good
7) "Jaynestown" - Excellent
8) "Out Of Gas" - Good
9) "Ariel" - Excellent
10) "War Stories" - Excellent
11) "Trash" - Good
12) "The Message" - Decent]
Michael Ikeda
news:1178341110.8...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
> FIREFLY
> Season One, Episode 12: "The Message"
> (or "How much for just the kidneys?")
> Writers: Joss Whedon and Tim Minear
> Director: Tim Minear
>
> Jayne emerges
> with the legendarily cunning hat, an episode-long gag that gets
> paid off in a big way at the end.
It's also the same hat (and the same line as he puts it on) as in the
"Easter Egg" of Adam Baldwin singing "The Ballad of Jayne" on Disc 4.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
George W Harris
reason is the plot doesn't make any sense. Okay, if
you're involved in a criminal enterprise, and your
partners in that criminal enterprise are in possession of
your vital organs, you do not double cross them. But
Tracey did! Hello! What was his new buyer going to
put in his chest cavity, sand?
I can't get past that. Still, there are a lot of nice
moments in here, and many of them involve Jayne.
We've got the cunning hat, of course, with the
accompanying letter letting us know that Jayne's sending
money back to his family. We've had a reference to
Jayne's father before, in "Ariel", where he's quoted as
saying that a man who can't find work ain't lookin', and
here we learn his mother is still alive and well, and a family
member is ailing (with damplung?), and Jayne is sending
money back to support them. Traditional values!
Then we've got another Jayne-Book bonding
scene, talking about reactions to death. Not a whole lot of
interest there, although Jayne does profess some
acceptance of psychology.
Still, the last third is a mess, with Book and Mal
suffering from a pathological inability to explain their plan
when such an explanation would be most helpful. I also
don't get any sense for Kaylee's supposed attraction to
Tracey. It's supposedly motivated by Simon's missteps
before Dead Bessie, but I'm not buying Kaylee being so
fickle in her affections.
This is probably my least favorite episode.
--
"The truths of mathematics describe a bright and clear universe,
exquisite and beautiful in its structure, in comparison with
which the physical world is turbid and confused."
-Eulogy for G.H.Hardy
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
Don Sample
George W Harris <gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote:
> I really don't care for this episode, and the main
> reason is the plot doesn't make any sense. Okay, if
> you're involved in a criminal enterprise, and your
> partners in that criminal enterprise are in possession of
> your vital organs, you do not double cross them. But
> Tracey did! Hello! What was his new buyer going to
> put in his chest cavity, sand?
And how were his vital organs going to get to the sell point, anyway?
If they could smuggle his original parts, why not the replacements?
Maybe the folks behind this scheme looked for really dumb marks to be
their mules, who they never planned to let live.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Don Sample
Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> FIREFLY
> Season One, Episode 12: "The Message"
> (or "How much for just the kidneys?")
> Writers: Joss Whedon and Tim Minear
> Director: Tim Minear
One bit I liked about this episode was the canyon chase. It was pretty
much inevitable that we'd have to have one, sooner or later. It's one
of those things that's required in all movies and TV shows that involve
flying vehicles, and there's one thing that always bugged me about them:
Why the heck do the bad guys always follow the good guys down into that
canyon?
So here we have Wash zigging and zagging Serenity through the canyon,
barely missing running into canyon walls and such, and then we pull back
and see the Feds, calmly cruising along a few hundred feet above them,
where they *don't* have to worry about running into anything, but can
still see Serenity perfectly well.
C.O.Jones
Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> In article <as7p3317sffcib9d5...@4ax.com>,
> George W Harris <gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote:
>
> > I really don't care for this episode, and the main
> > reason is the plot doesn't make any sense. Okay, if
> > you're involved in a criminal enterprise, and your
> > partners in that criminal enterprise are in possession of
> > your vital organs, you do not double cross them. But
> > Tracey did! Hello! What was his new buyer going to
> > put in his chest cavity, sand?
>
> And how were his vital organs going to get to the sell point, anyway?
> If they could smuggle his original parts, why not the replacements?
> Maybe the folks behind this scheme looked for really dumb marks to be
> their mules, who they never planned to let live.
Tracey DID come off as pretty stupid.
--
////////// \\\\\\\\\\\
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
-- Harlan Ellison
C.O.Jones
> I also
> don't get any sense for Kaylee's supposed attraction to
> Tracey. It's supposedly motivated by Simon's missteps
> before Dead Bessie, but I'm not buying Kaylee being so
> fickle in her affections.
It is the "limping puppy" syndrome. It brought out the mothering
instincts in Kaylee. And she was miffed at Simon, and probably trying
to send him a message.
George W Harris
wrote:
:In article <dsample-AB91AF...@news.giganews.com>, Don
:Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
:
:> In article <as7p3317sffcib9d5...@4ax.com>,
:> George W Harris <gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote:
:>
:> > I really don't care for this episode, and the main
:> > reason is the plot doesn't make any sense. Okay, if
:> > you're involved in a criminal enterprise, and your
:> > partners in that criminal enterprise are in possession of
:> > your vital organs, you do not double cross them. But
:> > Tracey did! Hello! What was his new buyer going to
:> > put in his chest cavity, sand?
:>
:> And how were his vital organs going to get to the sell point, anyway?
:> If they could smuggle his original parts, why not the replacements?
:> Maybe the folks behind this scheme looked for really dumb marks to be
:> their mules, who they never planned to let live.
:
:Tracey DID come off as pretty stupid.
You can get around that by saying it's possible to
ship actual human organs; just not these engineered
organs. But, yeah, other than the badge in dropping his
gun and eating beans, there's not much Tracey seems to
have a handle on.
--
/bud...@nirvana.net/h:k
Julian Treadwell
>
> One-sentence summary: Interesting pieces, badly flawed whole.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
>
There are some of the best scenes in the series here - Jayne's hat, the
carnie guy selling alien lifeform viewings, River's Ice Planet problems,
the bad cops talking to the postal worker ('the only Jew in space'
according to the commentary, although Mr Universe in the BDM also seems
Jewish to me).
And the support cast is really good, especially Tracey, the evil cop,
the postmaster and the carnie guy.
But I agree with you and George W. Harris, the plot holes are pretty bad.
I can't remember how you're deriving your ratings AOQ - are they
relative to the standard of the whole FF series, or relative to TV
sci-fi series in general? If the latter, I don't think I'd rate any FF
episode as less than "good", and TM would get a "good" from me. If the
former, I guess "decent" for TM is probably right.
Apteryx
news:1178341110.8...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> FIREFLY
> Season One, Episode 12: "The Message"
> (or "How much for just the kidneys?")
> Writers: Joss Whedon and Tim Minear
> Director: Tim Minear
>
>
> characters in ones and twos. Jayne wanting to feel alive, River
> comfortably soaking up the moods, that kind of thing. It's all worth
> seeing once. Meanwhile, Kaylee's strongly physically attracted to
> Tracey, which makes sense, but the episode doesn't really want to go
> much of anywhere with that. Tracey himself, after a great startling
> moment of return to the world of the living, is now acting as an organ
> farm. He's more or less a stock character, the nervous guy who turns
> to the criminal element out of perceived necessity (generally to help
> family), gets in over his head, and winds up killed.
I think he is a little more villain that that makes him sound. He has
defrauded his original associates, he's picked Mal and Zoe to help him and
put them in danger because they are "saps", and he'll use Kaylee as a
shield. And yet we see him when he was apparently their friend, and we see a
family that mourns his death. The latter is presumably true of any villain
killed on the show, and it's possible that even Saffron has parents who
worry about what she's getting up to, but we get to see Tracey's. I think
that lifts the episode above where it's logical flaws would otherwise put
it. Plus the whole thing with Jayne and his letter from home and the hat
seems in hindsight to have been a forshadowing of that final scene - if
there was anyone in the series who's it hard to imagine having a mother it
would be Jayne.
> it's buried in said idiot plot and can't be separated from it. The
> attempts at twists tinged with chaos also submerge the personalities
> involved, so that I don't end up feeling anything for either Tracey or
> those who end up carrying him.
I do, which is probably why in the end I rate it a little higher than you,
despite the bit where it doesn't make any sense.
>
> One-sentence summary: Interesting pieces, badly flawed whole.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
Agree with the summary. Because of the logical story flaws, it ends up less
than the sum of its parts. But it's parts are (just) good enough to make it
Good for me. It's my 11th favourite FF episode. I give it the same rating as
Potential, the 80th best BtVS episode, and it falls between Lullaby and
Fredless, the 41st and 42nd best AtS episodes
--
Apteryx
Arbitrar Of Quality
> One bit I liked about this episode was the canyon chase. It was pretty
> much inevitable that we'd have to have one, sooner or later. It's one
> of those things that's required in all movies and TV shows that involve
> flying vehicles, and there's one thing that always bugged me about them:
> Why the heck do the bad guys always follow the good guys down into that
> canyon?
>
> So here we have Wash zigging and zagging Serenity through the canyon,
> barely missing running into canyon walls and such, and then we pull back
> and see the Feds, calmly cruising along a few hundred feet above them,
> where they *don't* have to worry about running into anything, but can
> still see Serenity perfectly well.
Forgot to mention that. Yes, almost certainly a very deliberate riff
on all the "why don't they just fly *over* the trees/canyon/whatever?"
moments.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
wrote:
> I can't remember how you're deriving your ratings AOQ - are they
> relative to the standard of the whole FF series, or relative to TV
> sci-fi series in general? If the latter, I don't think I'd rate any FF
> episode as less than "good", and TM would get a "good" from me. If the
> former, I guess "decent" for TM is probably right.
Just how enjoyable something is overall. "Decent" covers a wide range
of stuff, but generally that rating goes to an episode that's a
perfectly pleasant way to spend an hour but doesn't have all that much
lasting impact - either through just not being interesting enough, or
through being a highly flawed execution of what could have been
better.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1178341110.8...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> > moment of return to the world of the living, is now acting as an organ
> > farm. He's more or less a stock character, the nervous guy who turns
> > to the criminal element out of perceived necessity (generally to help
> > family), gets in over his head, and winds up killed.
>
> I think he is a little more villain that that makes him sound. He has
> defrauded his original associates, he's picked Mal and Zoe to help him and
> put them in danger because they are "saps", and he'll use Kaylee as a
> shield.
Point taken.
> And yet we see him when he was apparently their friend, and we see a
> family that mourns his death. The latter is presumably true of any villain
> killed on the show, and it's possible that even Saffron has parents who
> worry about what she's getting up to, but we get to see Tracey's. I think
> that lifts the episode above where it's logical flaws would otherwise put
> it.
A premise like that can only take me so far. Here it's just an
abstract idea, since we never *meet* his family and have no reason to
like or care much about Tracey. Well, Mal and Zoe, surrogate family,
do, but that potential avenue of connection is lost for me because I
can't get over the fact that the only reason they lose him is that
everyone involved is an idiot.
> Plus the whole thing with Jayne and his letter from home and the hat
> seems in hindsight to have been a forshadowing of that final scene - if
> there was anyone in the series who's it hard to imagine having a mother it
> would be Jayne.
Hmm, good thought, and that ties things together a little more.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
wrote:
> the bad cops talking to the postal worker ('the only Jew in space'
> according to the commentary, although Mr Universe in the BDM also seems
> Jewish to me).
Yeah, Mr. Universe is wearing a kippah and breaks a glass in the very
brief clip of his "wedding" we see on one of the screens.
-AOQ
George W Harris
wrote:
:On May 6, 5:47 am, Julian Treadwell <julian.treadw...@jcu.edu.au>
Maybe it was the LoveBot that was Jewish.
:
:-AOQ
One Bit Shy
news:1178341110.8...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> FIREFLY
> Season One, Episode 12: "The Message"
> (or "How much for just the kidneys?")
OK, so the plot is about this guy who goes for the big bucks and gets
screwed for the effort. Or maybe it's about a guy selling his heart and
getting screwed for it. Or some variation there of. So, with the season
heading for an imminent crash landing, do you think there's any connection
to what's on Joss and Tim's minds?
> This one opens aboard a space mall of sorts, where the characters hang
> around having moments before anything of note happens. And there're
> still carnival barkers peddling their space aliens. It's one of those
> moment-filled episodes, full of little details for those wishing to
> soak up every last bit available of the soon-to-be-eliminated
> Fireflyverse, and particularly bits about individual members of the
> main cast.
The atmosphere of the space mall is probably my favorite thing in the
episode, with the possible exception of the space ship chase. Another one
of those moments in the series where my imagination really wants to take me
there to explore all the nooks and cranies. There's lots of delightful
detail to attract, but it's probably River and her problamatic food that
best expresses it. What wonderful place would concoct such a devious taste
delight?
> Here Simon and Kaylee get a scene together that's pretty
> much exactly the same routine they go through every other week: Kaylee
> enjoys the flattery, Simon says the wrong thing, she walks away in a
> huff, a crisis brings them together. Bored now.
An emotion that I imagine beginning to worm its way into Simon. If Kaylee
isn't careful, she'll be the one to drive Simon away. Perhaps I'm imagining
this, but I think the point of the exchange this time is for Kaylee's
benefit, not Simon's. It's Kaylee who's perfectly unreasonable; and it's
Kaylee who needs the object lesson on what's really important and who she
can rely on.
"...falling in with untrustworthy folk..."
> One thing that I find slightly bothersome, although it doesn't impair
> the in-the-moment viewing experience very much, is something the cast
> and crew chuckle about in several episode commentaries: the change in
> Wash's behavior. Supposedly, Tim (and Alan Tudyk) liked the idea of
> him yelling and whooping and generally being a lunatic in a stressful
> flying situation, despite having established him as calm under
> pressure in "Serenity." Joss and Tim then had a typical ME
> conversation along the lines of: "so, we're throwing that away for the
> sake of a joke?" "Yep." "Cool!" I can't support the choice. The
> Wash we saw in the climax of "Serenity" jumped out, the hero of the
> sequence, making us take a new look at the dinosaur guy, and it's a
> shame to lose him.
It's an inconsistancy in his character. But then, I didn't feel that the
notion of there being this cool calm part of him under stress was sold very
well anyway. Have we seen it anywhere else but in the series opener? The
only time (sort of) that I can think of is when he backs up Zoe and Jayne
when they rescue Mal in War Stories. But I think he was in a state of rage
then, which doesn't correspond well to the broader concept. The net effect
is a kind of vagueness to much of his character, which is part of why I
think his is the weakest of the crew.
> The reason it doesn't seem so important in the
> moment is that this is an exciting part anyway, especially the falling
> ice: incredible visuals, real sense of speed and vertigo, use of three-
> dimensional space, the whole deal. _Firefly_ so does not look a low-
> budget show right now.
When I first saw this scene I was totally blown away by the action. Since
then, not as much. Now I like the battle with the Reaver ship in Serenity
better. But it's still very good. I'm reminded again how I wonder if the
series would have been better served with more focus on action in the early
episodes. At least from a ratings point of view. The series is pretty good
at it when it does it.
> Plus, the whole time the ship is shaking to pieces, Book has his
> moment of coming off as really damn cool, picking up on things that a
> typical monastery-dweller has no business knowing about and coming up
> with an unexpected way to save the situation. That in itself is a
> well done piece of plotting. But the way it's portrayed is part of
> the absolute mess that the last third or so of "The Message" makes of
> its plot. Since the writers don't want the audience to know what our
> heroes have in mind, we're apparently meant to believe that Mal and
> the good shepherd signal each other with their eyes, "Becoming" style,
> and work it out on the spot. I have no idea how the hell Mal can be
> expected to get "I somehow can tell that this guy doesn't have the
> legal backing he thinks he does, let's land and then let him know
> about it after he boards" from a meaningful gaze. The fragments of
> stuff that the characters say out loud seem specifically hand-picked
> to make anyone listening in get as wrong an impression as possible.
Perhaps a little clunky, but I don't think the idea is that Book had worked
out what to do with the knowledge - only that he was letting Mal know that
these feds were working alone. Mal on his own then worked out how to use
that knowledge.
> Then there's a gun standoff in which the characters tell Tracey to
> calm down but never give him the quick phrase that might lead to the
> chance to get through to him: I'd suggest "hey, we have a plan" or
> "we're not really going to turn you over" as a starting point.
> Instead, Mal puts Wash in a situation to get himself shot before
> someone finally shoots Tracey. Then we have *another* standoff, a
> slow one in which there's plenty of time to spell everything out, but
> instead the characters choose to trade clunky "meaningful" dialogue.
> Finally that resolves with an instant replay of the scene on the
> bridge, ending basically the same way. The show wants us to think
> that he hanged himself (figuratively), but it's more like Mal's making
> a concerted effort at every turn to make sure he doesn't survive the
> episode. Which now I'm thinking may have even been the intention -
> Mal decides Tracey's a danger and puts him down - but if that's even
> what they were going for, it should've been made much less opaque.
> Other than maybe "Shindig" (which always stayed entertaining), this is
> _Firefly_'s most inept foray into the realm of the idiot plot. I do
> appreciate the back-and-forth about who's playing whom and such, but
> it's buried in said idiot plot and can't be separated from it. The
> attempts at twists tinged with chaos also submerge the personalities
> involved, so that I don't end up feeling anything for either Tracey or
> those who end up carrying him. And I'm quite tired of the titular
> message by about the fourteenth time we hear it.
Well, they're going for a trust theme here. Trust your family. Nobody will
stand up for you like them. Tracey's lack of trust would be seen as
rejection of family by Mal. The point of view being expressed by Mal is
that he's earned that trust and that Tracey should have faith in him even if
he doesn't know why. Mal appears to be forcing Tracey to choose whether to
trust his family or not on faith alone. Mal seems to see it as character
defining and refuses to give Tracey the additional knowledge that would let
him make the "right" decision for totally self serving reasons.
How well that's sold is dubious. I think the episode delivers the trust
theme with repeated hammers to the head that gets kind of annoying. Which
also makes the "real" family ending unduly sappy in my book. On the whole,
this episode goes for the series family theme one too many times, one step
too far.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Interesting pieces, badly flawed whole.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
I'm not fond of the organ smuggling story line either. Too many holes in it
that get ignored.
I think this is pretty easily my least liked Firefly episode. In many ways
it deserves a Weak rating. But there's too much good stuff around the edges
to keep it out of the Decent range, which is where I'd rate it.
OBS
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
Looks like this is another one of those "the Internet ate my post" days.
Apologies if this winds up being a duplicate.
In alt.tv.firefly Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> FIREFLY
> Season One, Episode 12: "The Message"
> (or "How much for just the kidneys?")
Or "More organs means more human! It will work."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Harvest_%28Invader_Zim%29
http://www.thescarymonkeyshow.com/features/trans/dh.htm
> This one opens aboard a space mall of sorts, where the characters hang
> around having moments before anything of note happens. And there're
> still carnival barkers peddling their space aliens.
Speaking of which, there are no space aliens in Firefly. This could
simply mean that Joss wanted to differentiate his show from the Star Trek
tradition of bumpy foreheads, so he decided that by the 26th century
humanity still hadn't run into any aliens. However, I've also read that
Joss believes that we really are alone in the universe. That I can't
agree with. Life might be rare, but it's hard for me to believe that not
even one other inhabited planet among all the trillions of stars in the
universe. But on the other hand, I could certainly understand if Joss was
put off the idea of space aliens by all the New Agey and outright flakey
believers in almond-eyed, grey-skinned visitors from the stars. I still
don't agree with his conclusion, but I totally respect the attitude that
led him there.
> main cast. Here Simon and Kaylee get a scene together that's pretty
> much exactly the same routine they go through every other week: Kaylee
> enjoys the flattery, Simon says the wrong thing, she walks away in a
> huff, a crisis brings them together. Bored now.
I think this case was a bit different from the usual routine, because for
once Simon was actually *trying* to charm Kaylee. Of course his blunder
alienated her more than his distraction or hesitation in earlier episodes,
but at least he was trying. That's some progress. His conversational
misstep is almost too painful to watch, but I do enjoy his reaction as he
starts to realize how his words will sound to Kaylee but can't think of
any way out of the situation. Obviously this helps set the ground for
Kaylee's attraction to Tracey; it also leads to a nice little moment in
the final scene, when Kaylee forgets her earlier irritation and holds
Simon's hand for comfort.
So why is Kaylee attracted to Tracey? Aside from simple good looks, I
mean, and the fact that he hadn't yet had a chance to offend her. Her
interest seems to start with that recorded Message, before she even
realizes he's still alive. His recording makes him sound like he's facing
a desperate situation with relative dignity -- not unlike Simon -- and it
also demonstrates his devotion to his family -- not unlike Simon's
devotion to River. So to some extent I think Tracey feels to her like a
new and improved version of Simon, one without the uptight attitude or
vast difference in social class. (Admittedly I'm comparing Kaylee's
initial reaction to Tracey to her feelings for Simon after she's known him
for a while; but hey, what's wrong with that?)
> meantime. Finally, to cap off the unrelated into stuff, I'd like to
> point out what may be my personal favorite five-second bit of the
> series: a mystified River staring at her "ice planet," deadpanning the
> classic line "my food is problematic." River is so much fun to watch
> in these later episodes.
So what *is* the right way to eat an ice planet? Jayne acts like it's
obvious, but the episode wisely leaves it to our imagination.
And while I'm not sure if this has any significance, St. Albans certainly
looks like an ice planet. Kind of like the rubber ball/planet in Objects
in Space? Okay, maybe not.
> Kippah Guy has packages for our heroes,
According to the script online, the postmaster's name was Amnon Duul.
Surely that can't be anything other than a reference to the German
prog-rock band Amon Duul?
> much of anywhere with that. Tracey himself, after a great startling
> moment of return to the world of the living, is now acting as an organ
> farm.
Others have pointed out the logical flaws in the whole organ-legging
scheme. I guess you can sort of explain it if you assume that standard
organ transplants are widely available, and the enhanced lab-grown organs
Tracey is smuggling are worth such a vast sum of money that the buyers
can reasonably offer a set of standard, run-of-the-mill replacement organs
to put into Tracey afterwards. But still, it never quite feels believable
to me.
> He's more or less a stock character, the nervous guy who turns
> to the criminal element out of perceived necessity (generally to help
> family), gets in over his head, and winds up killed.
He's also the guy who turns nasty out of desperation when trusting our
family of heroes could have saved him. That is, if not quite a stock
character, exactly the kind of character you'd expect Joss to write.
> The futuristic cola commercial makes me kinda happy.
Perhaps a reference to Blade Runner?
> One thing that I find slightly bothersome, although it doesn't impair
> the in-the-moment viewing experience very much, is something the cast
> and crew chuckle about in several episode commentaries: the change in
> Wash's behavior. Supposedly, Tim (and Alan Tudyk) liked the idea of
> him yelling and whooping and generally being a lunatic in a stressful
> flying situation, despite having established him as calm under
> pressure in "Serenity." Joss and Tim then had a typical ME
> conversation along the lines of: "so, we're throwing that away for the
> sake of a joke?" "Yep." "Cool!" I can't support the choice.
Me either. Not only did I like the calm Wash of Serenity-the-episode's
big Reaver chase scene, but the frantic Wash of The Message just got on my
nerves. Jokes are fine, but this wasn't a good joke, just some dumb
clowning around. I was happy that Serenity-the-movie moved him back to
the calm-under-pressure model. (Or at least towards it -- he's not quite
as calm as in the pilot.)
> heroes have in mind, we're apparently meant to believe that Mal and
> the good shepherd signal each other with their eyes, "Becoming" style,
> and work it out on the spot.
Heh!
> Then there's a gun standoff in which the characters tell Tracey to
> calm down but never give him the quick phrase that might lead to the
> chance to get through to him: I'd suggest "hey, we have a plan" or
> "we're not really going to turn you over" as a starting point.
Yes, this is another problem, worse than the gut-running idea. I guess if
you want to make this one work, you could say that Mal never reacts well
to having his orders questioned, and compare it to Bushwhacked, when Mal
lets Simon think that he and River will be turned over to the Feds. But
in that episode, there wasn't quite the pressing need for an explanation
that we get in The Message. You could also say that Mal is angry that
Tracey doesn't trust him and positively furious when he pulls a gun on
Mal's crew. But is Mal impractical enough to let that fury blind him to
the need for something like the phrases mentioned above? It's just a
little too much for me to buy.
Random moment that really entertained me: Simon telling Jayne to bring
that pan, just in time for Tracey to throw up in it, and Jayne's reaction.
> One-sentence summary: Interesting pieces, badly flawed whole.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
I'll go as far as a *high* Decent. There were problems with the plot, but
aside from that I think almost all the pieces were really well done.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
Michael Ikeda
news:133uust...@news.supernews.com:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1178341110.8...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
>> FIREFLY
>> Season One, Episode 12: "The Message"
>> (or "How much for just the kidneys?")
>
> OK, so the plot is about this guy who goes for the big bucks and
> gets screwed for the effort. Or maybe it's about a guy selling
> his heart and getting screwed for it. Or some variation there
> of. So, with the season heading for an imminent crash landing,
> do you think there's any connection to what's on Joss and Tim's
> minds?
>
In Jewel Staite's essay on the Firefly episodes (in "Finding
Serenity," BenBella books, 2005, edited by Jane Espenson), she seems
to be suggesting that this episode was actually the last to be
filmed.
Don Sample
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> Looks like this is another one of those "the Internet ate my post" days.
> Apologies if this winds up being a duplicate.
>
> In alt.tv.firefly Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> > FIREFLY
> > Season One, Episode 12: "The Message"
> > (or "How much for just the kidneys?")
>
> > This one opens aboard a space mall of sorts, where the characters hang
> > around having moments before anything of note happens. And there're
> > still carnival barkers peddling their space aliens.
>
> Speaking of which, there are no space aliens in Firefly. This could
> simply mean that Joss wanted to differentiate his show from the Star Trek
> tradition of bumpy foreheads, so he decided that by the 26th century
> humanity still hadn't run into any aliens. However, I've also read that
> Joss believes that we really are alone in the universe. That I can't
> agree with. Life might be rare, but it's hard for me to believe that not
> even one other inhabited planet among all the trillions of stars in the
> universe. But on the other hand, I could certainly understand if Joss was
> put off the idea of space aliens by all the New Agey and outright flakey
> believers in almond-eyed, grey-skinned visitors from the stars. I still
> don't agree with his conclusion, but I totally respect the attitude that
> led him there.
Since there doesn't seem to be any sort of FTL travel in the 'verse,
whatever system they've found has to be one pretty close to ours, which
makes it very unlikely that it contained any sort of intelligent
aboriginal species, and while life seems to have existed on Earth almost
as long as there has been liquid water, multi-cellular life took about 3
billion years to develop, which to me means it's pretty unlikely to
develop at all.
And then it took another billion years for intelligent life to develop,
which makes intelligence pretty darn unlikely too.
It therefore doesn't surprise me that they haven't run into any aliens
in the 'verse. If there was any indigenous life in the system they
found, it was probably single celled, and the terraforming would have
wiped it out.
>
> And while I'm not sure if this has any significance, St. Albans certainly
> looks like an ice planet.
Or maybe it was a regular planet, and it was just winter. They had
trees and stuff, which pretty much requires that they have a summer too.
(Trees don't grow in places that are permanently frozen.)
> > Then there's a gun standoff in which the characters tell Tracey to
> > calm down but never give him the quick phrase that might lead to the
> > chance to get through to him: I'd suggest "hey, we have a plan" or
> > "we're not really going to turn you over" as a starting point.
>
> Yes, this is another problem, worse than the gut-running idea. I guess if
> you want to make this one work, you could say that Mal never reacts well
> to having his orders questioned, and compare it to Bushwhacked, when Mal
> lets Simon think that he and River will be turned over to the Feds. But
> in that episode, there wasn't quite the pressing need for an explanation
> that we get in The Message.
And Simon *does* get the explanation. It just happens off screen, so
we're left wondering what's happened to them.
Don Sample
Michael Ikeda <mmi...@erols.com> wrote:
> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in
> news:133uust...@news.supernews.com:
>
> > "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1178341110.8...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >> FIREFLY
> >> Season One, Episode 12: "The Message"
> >> (or "How much for just the kidneys?")
> >
> > OK, so the plot is about this guy who goes for the big bucks and
> > gets screwed for the effort. Or maybe it's about a guy selling
> > his heart and getting screwed for it. Or some variation there
> > of. So, with the season heading for an imminent crash landing,
> > do you think there's any connection to what's on Joss and Tim's
> > minds?
> >
>
> In Jewel Staite's essay on the Firefly episodes (in "Finding
> Serenity," BenBella books, 2005, edited by Jane Espenson), she seems
> to be suggesting that this episode was actually the last to be
> filmed.
No suggestion about it. "The Message" was the last episode filmed.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Looks like this is another one of those "the Internet ate my post" days.
> Apologies if this winds up being a duplicate.
This is the only one I see.
> Speaking of which, there are no space aliens in Firefly. This could
> simply mean that Joss wanted to differentiate his show from the Star Trek
> tradition of bumpy foreheads, so he decided that by the 26th century
> humanity still hadn't run into any aliens. However, I've also read that
> Joss believes that we really are alone in the universe. That I can't
> agree with. Life might be rare, but it's hard for me to believe that not
> even one other inhabited planet among all the trillions of stars in the
> universe. But on the other hand, I could certainly understand if Joss was
> put off the idea of space aliens by all the New Agey and outright flakey
> believers in almond-eyed, grey-skinned visitors from the stars. I still
> don't agree with his conclusion, but I totally respect the attitude that
> led him there.
In this particular case, I'll chime in with those who point out that
_Firefly_ confines itself to one solar system (or are they confined?
If so, how did they get here? The nature of the migration from Earth
That Was is vague). Whether or not we're alone as a whole, it's not
hard to imagine being alone in this case.
> > Kippah Guy has packages for our heroes,
>
> According to the script online, the postmaster's name was Amnon Duul.
> Surely that can't be anything other than a reference to the German
> prog-rock band Amon Duul?
... sure, why not?
> > One thing that I find slightly bothersome, although it doesn't impair
> > the in-the-moment viewing experience very much, is something the cast
> > and crew chuckle about in several episode commentaries: the change in
> > Wash's behavior. Supposedly, Tim (and Alan Tudyk) liked the idea of
> > him yelling and whooping and generally being a lunatic in a stressful
> > flying situation, despite having established him as calm under
> > pressure in "Serenity." Joss and Tim then had a typical ME
> > conversation along the lines of: "so, we're throwing that away for the
> > sake of a joke?" "Yep." "Cool!" I can't support the choice.
>
> Me either. Not only did I like the calm Wash of Serenity-the-episode's
> big Reaver chase scene, but the frantic Wash of The Message just got on my
> nerves. Jokes are fine, but this wasn't a good joke, just some dumb
> clowning around. I was happy that Serenity-the-movie moved him back to
> the calm-under-pressure model. (Or at least towards it -- he's not quite
> as calm as in the pilot.)
Yeah, the BDM more or less fixed that issue; Wash's piloting scene
there is very good. Overall, I have to agree with One Bit Shy that
Wash is the weakest personality of the nine during the short time we
know them. I've tried, but he's simply never stood out or interested
me as much as the others... except at the end of "Serenity" (the
pilot), where I really appreciate him. So this episode hurts. Just a
little.
-AOQ
Don Sample
Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> On May 7, 5:03 pm, chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> > Looks like this is another one of those "the Internet ate my post" days.
> > Apologies if this winds up being a duplicate.
>
> This is the only one I see.
>
> > Speaking of which, there are no space aliens in Firefly. This could
> > simply mean that Joss wanted to differentiate his show from the Star Trek
> > tradition of bumpy foreheads, so he decided that by the 26th century
> > humanity still hadn't run into any aliens. However, I've also read that
> > Joss believes that we really are alone in the universe. That I can't
> > agree with. Life might be rare, but it's hard for me to believe that not
> > even one other inhabited planet among all the trillions of stars in the
> > universe. But on the other hand, I could certainly understand if Joss was
> > put off the idea of space aliens by all the New Agey and outright flakey
> > believers in almond-eyed, grey-skinned visitors from the stars. I still
> > don't agree with his conclusion, but I totally respect the attitude that
> > led him there.
>
> In this particular case, I'll chime in with those who point out that
> _Firefly_ confines itself to one solar system (or are they confined?
> If so, how did they get here? The nature of the migration from Earth
> That Was is vague). Whether or not we're alone as a whole, it's not
> hard to imagine being alone in this case.
Up until the BDM, it was debatable whether they were in one stellar
system, or spread across several. There are various references in
different episodes to them being in the galaxy, not a single system.
Our Mrs. Reynolds:
Mal: There's more'n seventy little earth's spinning about the
galaxy, and the meek have inherited not a one.
Safe:
Simon: Fun. Right. I consider this "fun." It's "fun" being
forced to the ass-end of the galaxy, get to live on a
piece of < garbage > wreck and eat molded protein while
playing nursemaid to my < not entirely sane > sister.
"Fun."
Spreading them around multiple systems would also make some of the plots
make more sense, as well.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> _Firefly_ confines itself to one solar system (or are they confined?
> If so, how did they get here? The nature of the migration from Earth
> That Was is vague). Whether or not we're alone as a whole, it's not
> hard to imagine being alone in this case.
the problem is its not clear the authors understood the difference
the introductions suggest it is a single star
but the dialog and that planets seem to be relatively fixed to each other
suggest multiple stars
meow arf meow - they are performing horrible experiments in space
major grubert is watching you - beware the bakalite
impeach the bastard - the airtight garage has you neo
Espen Schjønberg
>
> This is probably my least favorite episode.
Me too.
No other meaning with this message from me, it's just an AOL.
--
Esspen
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> _Firefly_ confines itself to one solar system (or are they confined?
> If so, how did they get here? The nature of the migration from Earth
> That Was is vague). Whether or not we're alone as a whole, it's not
> hard to imagine being alone in this case.
Lest there be any doubt, I agree with both AOQ and Don here. I have no
problem with the lack of aliens in Firefly, or the idea that life in space
is extremely rare. What I do disagree with is JW's reported opinion that
there is no alien life *anywhere*. But maybe these reports are
exaggerated?
> Yeah, the BDM more or less fixed that issue; Wash's piloting scene
> there is very good. Overall, I have to agree with One Bit Shy that
> Wash is the weakest personality of the nine during the short time we
> know them. I've tried, but he's simply never stood out or interested
> me as much as the others... except at the end of "Serenity" (the
> pilot), where I really appreciate him. So this episode hurts. Just a
> little.
One problem Wash has is that he's a joker personality, but it's actually
Jayne who gets most of the best actual jokes. To even things out, they
should have had Wash do most of the fighting.
Don Sample
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> In alt.tv.firefly Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> > In this particular case, I'll chime in with those who point out that
> > _Firefly_ confines itself to one solar system (or are they confined?
> > If so, how did they get here? The nature of the migration from Earth
> > That Was is vague). Whether or not we're alone as a whole, it's not
> > hard to imagine being alone in this case.
>
> Lest there be any doubt, I agree with both AOQ and Don here. I have no
> problem with the lack of aliens in Firefly, or the idea that life in space
> is extremely rare. What I do disagree with is JW's reported opinion that
> there is no alien life *anywhere*. But maybe these reports are
> exaggerated?
Since I haven't seen any citation for where he said something along
those lines, I take such reports with a grain of salt.
mark_s...@yahoo.com
> simply mean that Joss wanted to differentiate his show from the Star Trek
> tradition of bumpy foreheads, so he decided that by the 26th century
> humanity still hadn't run into any aliens. However, I've also read that
> Joss believes that we really are alone in the universe. That I can't
> agree with.
Arthur C. Clarke once said that when we travel to the stars we may
meet apes or angels, but never men. By that he meant that given the
time scales of planetary and biological evolution, the chance of
meeting a species within a million years or so of our own level of
technological development is remote. Any non human species we find
will either be primitive or unimaginably advanced.
C.O.Jones
> In alt.tv.firefly Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> > In this particular case, I'll chime in with those who point out that
> > _Firefly_ confines itself to one solar system (or are they confined?
> > If so, how did they get here? The nature of the migration from Earth
> > That Was is vague). Whether or not we're alone as a whole, it's not
> > hard to imagine being alone in this case.
>
> Lest there be any doubt, I agree with both AOQ and Don here. I have no
> problem with the lack of aliens in Firefly, or the idea that life in space
> is extremely rare. What I do disagree with is JW's reported opinion that
> there is no alien life *anywhere*. But maybe these reports are
> exaggerated?
"No alien life ANYWHERE" as opposed to "No alien life within reaching
distance" sounds about the same to me. Potato, potatoe.
According to some quantum physisists that believe in an infinite
universe say that it is inevitable that there are other earths just
like this one, people and all. The catch is, these places are so far
away that they might as well not be there.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"mark_s...@yahoo.com" <mark_s...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On May 7, 5:03 pm, chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> > Speaking of which, there are no space aliens in Firefly. This could
> > simply mean that Joss wanted to differentiate his show from the Star Trek
> > tradition of bumpy foreheads, so he decided that by the 26th century
> > humanity still hadn't run into any aliens. However, I've also read that
> > Joss believes that we really are alone in the universe. That I can't
> > agree with.
the problem is we only have undeniable evidence of life
on a single planet of the entire universe
and evidence of possible life on only one other planet
its really hard to extrapolate accurately from so small a basis
(evolution only considers the transition of life to life
not the transition of a nonliving organic soup into life
nobody really know what it takes to make that transition
it may depend on some extremely rare cosmic event
like the supernova that triggered our solar systems creation
or it may depend on events that are widely available in the universe)
> Arthur C. Clarke once said that when we travel to the stars we may
> meet apes or angels, but never men. By that he meant that given the
> time scales of planetary and biological evolution, the chance of
> meeting a species within a million years or so of our own level of
> technological development is remote. Any non human species we find
> will either be primitive or unimaginably advanced.
the problem with that is it couples technology to evolution
biologically we are not that different from apes
we couldnt speak with earlier members of our genus
but that doesnt mean we couldnt relate to them
George W Harris
wrote:
:According to some quantum physisists that believe in an infinite
:universe say that it is inevitable that there are other earths just
:like this one, people and all. The catch is, these places are so far
:away that they might as well not be there.
Yeah, there might be people with websites calling
themselves quantum physicists who say that, but they
have as much cerdibility as this guy:
http://www.timecube.com/
--
Doesn't the fact that there are *exactly* 50 states seem a little suspicious?
C.O.Jones
Harris <gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 08 May 2007 15:43:56 -0700, "C.O.Jones" <ap...@solidbrass.com>
> wrote:
>
> :According to some quantum physisists that believe in an infinite
> :universe say that it is inevitable that there are other earths just
> :like this one, people and all. The catch is, these places are so far
> :away that they might as well not be there.
>
> Yeah, there might be people with websites calling
> themselves quantum physicists who say that, but they
> have as much cerdibility as this guy:
>
> http://www.timecube.com/
I didn't get that information off of a web site, George. I got it out
of Discover, a reputable popular science magazine.
Are you saying that Discover magazine does not have credibility?
Or do you just have to disagree with whatever I have to say?
Arbitrar Of Quality
> On Tue, 08 May 2007 15:43:56 -0700, "C.O.Jones" <a...@solidbrass.com>
> wrote:
>
> :According to some quantum physisists that believe in an infinite
> :universe say that it is inevitable that there are other earths just
> :like this one, people and all. The catch is, these places are so far
> :away that they might as well not be there.
>
> Yeah, there might be people with websites calling
> themselves quantum physicists who say that, but they
> have as much cerdibility as this guy:
>
> http://www.timecube.com/
Hadn't thought about that site in a few years. Has he changed it to
make it more ridiculously insulting to the religious, or am I just
remembering wrong?
-AOQ
~has to be a joke, right?~
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
http://insurgent.org/~kook-faq/whiners.html
Victor von Frankenstein "Weird Science" Award, 2001
July Gene Ray
George W Harris
wrote:
:In article <vf5243hvbiu8uhs18...@4ax.com>, George W
:Harris <gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote:
:
:> On Tue, 08 May 2007 15:43:56 -0700, "C.O.Jones" <ap...@solidbrass.com>
:> wrote:
:>
:> :According to some quantum physisists that believe in an infinite
:> :universe say that it is inevitable that there are other earths just
:> :like this one, people and all. The catch is, these places are so far
:> :away that they might as well not be there.
:>
:> Yeah, there might be people with websites calling
:> themselves quantum physicists who say that, but they
:> have as much cerdibility as this guy:
:>
:> http://www.timecube.com/
:
:I didn't get that information off of a web site, George. I got it out
:of Discover, a reputable popular science magazine.
:
:Are you saying that Discover magazine does not have credibility?
If Discover magazine posits the serious
possibility of an infinite universe, then that's a
crippling blow to its credibility.
:
:Or do you just have to disagree with whatever I have to say?
I don't really keep track of what you say.
--
Real men don't need macho posturing to bolster their egos.
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
Don Sample
George W Harris <gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 08 May 2007 23:04:20 -0700, "C.O.Jones" <ap...@solidbrass.com>
> wrote:
>
> :In article <vf5243hvbiu8uhs18...@4ax.com>, George W
> :Harris <gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote:
> :
> :> On Tue, 08 May 2007 15:43:56 -0700, "C.O.Jones" <ap...@solidbrass.com>
> :> wrote:
> :>
> :> :According to some quantum physisists that believe in an infinite
> :> :universe say that it is inevitable that there are other earths just
> :> :like this one, people and all. The catch is, these places are so far
> :> :away that they might as well not be there.
> :>
> :> Yeah, there might be people with websites calling
> :> themselves quantum physicists who say that, but they
> :> have as much cerdibility as this guy:
> :>
> :> http://www.timecube.com/
> :
> :I didn't get that information off of a web site, George. I got it out
> :of Discover, a reputable popular science magazine.
> :
> :Are you saying that Discover magazine does not have credibility?
>
> If Discover magazine posits the serious
> possibility of an infinite universe, then that's a
> crippling blow to its credibility.
There are serious cosmologists, Stephen Hawking among them, who have put
forward theories which include an infinite universe.
Atlas Bugged
news:dsample-B11C5E...@news.giganews.com...
> Since I haven't seen any citation for where he said something along
> those lines, I take such reports with a grain of salt.
I have researched Whedon's pronouncements semi-formally and systematically,
and I agree. Without a cite, I deem it just legend or rumour.
Atlas Bugged, 5/10/2007 10:24:46 AM
--
SERENITY/FIREFLY FAQ, PLUS!
http://snipurl.com/k8ui "One page, all you need to know, referenced."
STARGATE ATLANTIS FAQ
http://snipurl.com/SGAFAQ "Still just a draft, perhaps daft, help to make it
better."
GOODBYE, SG-1
http://snipurl.com/1d8kw "Homage to the legend w/ last ep comments, no
spoilers."
TROLL/RATS:
http://snipurl.com/19k1q "Referenced guide to stinkers that hide."
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> "Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
> news:dsample-B11C5E...@news.giganews.com...
>> Since I haven't seen any citation for where he said something along
>> those lines, I take such reports with a grain of salt.
>
> I have researched Whedon's pronouncements semi-formally and systematically,
> and I agree. Without a cite, I deem it just legend or rumour.
Then I will happily consider it a mere rumor myself. One less point of
disagreement between me and Joss! I don't remember where I read it any
more specifically than "on the Internet," but I do remember that it was
someone commenting on Joss's beliefs, rather than an actual interview with
him. Probably whoever wrote it got a garbled report of something Joss
said.