AOQ Firefly Review 10: "War Stories"
Arbitrar Of Quality
Season One, Episode 10: "War Stories"
(or "Can't look, can't look... no, I mean, that is grotesque")
Writer: Cheryl Cain
Director: James Contner
WASH: I mean, I'm the one she swore to love, honor and
obey. MAL: Listen... She swore to
*obey*?
WASH: Well, no, not... But that's just my point! You she obeys!
She obeys you! There's obeying going on right under my nose!
In the exchange quoted above, Cheryl Cain's script accomplishes
something special. It uses what could have been a throwaway joke
about Zoe taking any wedding vows involving obeying, and uses it with
the very specific purpose of bringing it back to a plot point. It's
directed humor. That one example by itself might not be special,
except that the same directed thing happens over and over throughout
"War Stories." The anecdotes, the jokes, and the action are all as
good as usual from _Firefly_, but they almost universally also each
serve a clearly defined purpose.
Even though it's not actually the first scene (the first scene is all
about Shan Yu, who, according to the commentary, was a late addition
by Joss to help tie things together), I always remember this one
beginning with Kaylee chasing River through the ship. The latter
isn't perfectly sane or anything, but she's functioning like she's a
girl (when not seeing how much symbolic meaning one can possibly wring
out of vomit). It's a very sweet moment on its own, even before one
realizes that it's there to set up the incredibly effective re-use of
"no power in the 'verse can stop me." Generally, everyone's so
happy. This can't bode well. It's in the nature of Mutant Enemy
shows to torture its characters and see what they're made of, and make
every tidbit of reserved happiness at the end of the story feel
earned. That's why this (and the BDM) may be the closest to the heart
of Serenity's tale for me.
So anyway, that introduces the fruit (and wow, those apples look good
- I guess when fresh fruit is so rare, only go for the best), which
introduces our crew very fleetingly being rich after "Ariel," which
will be a plot point later. And it lets us know about Jayne's bout of
generosity, which seems so strange to those who aren't privy to
certain information, and which will set up a plot point later. And
from there the apples lead us straight into one of Zoe's stories,
which gives us a look into her while introducing the root problem Wash
is having, while the catalyst that brings it to the surface (his
medicine distribution plan) was mentioned in passing earlier. And
meanwhile, Jayne is around to provide the lightly comedic pay-offs for
everything; he wanders by after the discussion about cutting fruit,
and casually spears himself an apple. Heh. To repeat the earlier
point, scenes in "War Stories" are always doing several things at
once, serving the story and the series without ever compromising
entertainment value.
This is the most in depth we get about the marital disagreements of
our favorite (and only) _Firefly_ couple. At times like this I can
understand where Wash is coming from, and he even gets Zoe to admit
when she's wrong. Then we can follow his train of thought and see the
moment when he loses the high ground and starts to let his deeper
concerns blend into the rant in a realistically paranoid way. Enter
the third wheel in this relationship, to play straight-man and shrug
his shoulders wearily at the alien behavior. It's well done.
I don't quite understand how the crew just happens to swing by a
planet that Niska's orbiting without noticing it. Shouldn't one know
where such a big structure lives? Does he just float around the solar
system hovering on the dark side of whatever planet he has business
on? If so, someone's not really using a space station for its
intended purpose. The laser dot appearing on the turbaned guy's head
makes for a good "oh, shit" moment in any case.
Niska himself, it should be mentioned, comes off approximately ten
times better than in "The Train Job." It could be a writing thing,
but I mostly notice that the actor seems much more convincing pulling
of the viciousness that the role requires. Taking a personal hand in
the torture, or at least closely directing traffic, seems very much in
line with the way he works. My favorite Niska moment is his goofy
facial expression when he first lets Mal see who he's dealing with.
Sub-plot aboard the ship has to do with Inara entertaining a
counselor. I'm a bit more lukewarm here, plotwise, although it
doesn't take up enough screen time to make it a problem that it seems
to mainly exist for Jayne's reactions. Particularly a certain line of
dialogue. You know which one. Here's where the writing falls a
little flatter - for instance, I don't see any reason not to let Mal
know that the counselor is female given that everyone's going to find
out in a few minutes anyway. Now, I say "plotwise" because far be it
from me to complain these classy-looking women not wearing clothes and
having lots of implied sex. Interestingly, the shooting script
reveals that there was an originally an extended scene involving Inara
returning the visit and asking for help while talking a lot about what
Mal means to her. So there was supposed to be a direction with this
too.
Mal and Wash arguing about their relationship with Zoe while having
current pumped through them is very ME of them. The personal stuff is
always more important than the villains. I enjoy the way this episode
actually makes it part of the point, where they very specifically use
this rivalry as a defense mechanism. Tudyk is critical of his own
acting a little in the commentary; I dunno, except that Wash doesn't
do a whole lot for me during these sequences, but Mal gets my
attention with how quickly he adapts and comes up with a way to hold
out for a few more minutes. At one point he actually tells Wash
"listen to me!" when he sees him starting to fade, potentially letting
the audience in on what he's doing. (The episode later takes a second
to spell it out, too.)
So one thing I'd never really noticed before but became apparent on
this viewing (joke. Ha ha) is that there's a lot of torture in "War
Stories." It's bloody and brutal, and I've heard several people
turned off the episode just because of how intense and arguably
gratuitous it gets in places, particularly the ear. It's an old
argument about how much to show and how much to keep tastefully off-
screen. I'm generally going to give the episode a pass on the
explicitness count simply because, well, it does its job. The under-
the-skin thing is a bit much, but I do cringe at Niska cutting off the
ear, both for the action itself and for how much I want to maul him
for having so much fun putting on this show. Still, I do understand
the opposing viewpoint, particularly since I know from experience that
Joss and his cohorts are capable of doing slightly more with much less
during torture sequences ("Five By Five" and "Damage" come to mind).
Rather than being too visibly affected, Zoe remains steely cold and
expressionless during the whole thing. That can be a drawback in some
contexts (from a TV perspective, I mean), but here I love it, since
it's kinda what I assumed the character was capable of but hadn't had
it proven yet. She's so cool, managing to look totally unflappable
and badass no matter how much of a disadvantage she's at, going into
enemy HQ unarmed and hoping that it'll even be possible to barter for
her men's lives. Classic moment when she chooses an answer without
waiting for Niska to finish his question, and another spot for an
uncharacteristic act break. Meanwhile, of course, we've got Zoe the
soldier, getting the lay of the land knowing that she'll have to lead
an attack soon.
That attack is a highlight of the series, with the whole crew (save
Inara, whom I guess makes more valuable contributions through her
connections with the respectable folk) working together on this
suicide mission. Here the story takes aim at some "stealth" targets,
to borrow a term that's come up in the review threads before. The
story of the moment is about Mal, Wash, and Zoe, but the kidnapping
has its effects on the others too. Even in the thick of things, we're
laying groundwork for further developments in what should have been a
multi-season project. Thus we get moments like Book with his only
Chinese profanity of the series and strapping on a weapon without
hesitation, and Jayne hesitating and then committing himself, armed to
the teeth. Have I mentioned how cool Zoe is? The staging during the
attack is a mixed bag - the use of the Mule is great, while the
logistics of where everyone is in relation to everyone else isn't as
clear as it could be. On the whole it's a reasonable gun-fight, and
it's in large part about setting the stage for...
...The defining image of the sequence for me. Maybe of the whole
episode. I'm talking about Kaylee and River. In the heat of battle,
Kaylee freezes up and can't shoot. Can't really blame her for that,
and it fits neatly into her established catalogue of traits. Contrary
to what some people may have thought during my _Angel_ reviews, I
don't have a problem with one of the main cast being something of a
coward, I just have a problem with a main cast member being Lorne.
But then someone else is there to be the hero. I've been waiting for
ten episodes for River to come out of the dark and start killin' the
people who'd try to kill her right back. As a viewer, I "want" it to
be a big empowering moment. But the show has something more
interesting in mind, so here the thrill is tempered by the fact that
she does it in such a... well, River-y manner. Probably a little too
soon for her to be trying action-hero one-liners with that little
smirk. Kaylee's reactions suggest that she's almost as scared now as
when she was being shot at.
Sadly, I haven't been able to enjoy the "this is something the captain
has to do for himself" bit as much since it was pointed out that
there's no reason for Zoe to say that in the first place. Still fun,
though.
Fillion and Torres must have had a blast performing that last scene,
which is really damn funny. The delivery on "take me, sir. Take me
hard" would be enough on its own, but it's the facial expressions that
kill me. I generally like the way it ends, with the tantalizing bit
of spanking, the call-back to the bunk line, and Jayne finishing
things off with a non sequitur.
Quotes Worth Quoting:
- "I get to heart of matter and always *interruptions*!"
- "Well, it's a dangerous mission, sir. I can't stand the thought of
something
happening that might cause you two to come back with another
thrilling
tale of bonding and adventure. I just can't take that right now"
- "You do a lot of shooting at the abbey there, shepherd?" "Rabbits"
- "Grenades?" "Oh yes, thank you, dear"
- "Preacher, don't the Bible have some pretty specific things to say
about
killing?" "Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the
subject of kneecaps"
- "Okay, people... if it moves, shoot it." "Unless it's the cap'n!"
"Unless it's the captain"
- "No. That was the torture talking. Remember, the torture?"
- And of course, "I'll be in my bunk," is the most quotable line of
_Firefly_
So...
One-sentence summary: Gripping, and a strong candidate for best-of-
series.
AOQ rating: Excellent
[Ratings so far:
1) "Serenity" - Excellent
2) "The Train Job" - Good
3) "Bushwhacked" - Decent
4) "Shindig" - Good
5) "Safe" - Decent
6) "Our Mrs. Reynolds" - Good
7) "Jaynestown" - Excellent
8) "Out Of Gas" - Good
9) "Ariel" - Excellent
10) "War Stories" - Excellent]
Ruth
Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> FIREFLY
> Season One, Episode 10: "War Stories"
> (or "Can't look, can't look... no, I mean, that is grotesque")
> Writer: Cheryl Cain
> Director: James Contner
> WASH: I mean, I'm the one she swore to love, honor and
> obey. MAL: Listen... She swore to
> *obey*?
> WASH: Well, no, not... But that's just my point! You she obeys!
> She obeys you! There's obeying going on right under my nose!
One of my favorite bits from one of my favorite episodes. Yeah, It's
hard for me to watch torture ( which is why I stay away from 24) so I
often just close my eyes and listen to the dialogue during that part.
This is a great episode , clever, suspenseful, has great character
revelations and is funny as hell.
"Take me Captain, take me hard", delivered in that wonderful deadpan. It
just don't get any better.
I am loving your reviews.
Thanks.
Crone like being.
--
Qui custodiet ipsos custodes?
George W Harris
wrote:
:It's in the nature of Mutant Enemy
:shows to torture its characters and see what they're made of,
Of course! Joss Whedon *IS* Shan U!
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
Don Sample
Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> FIREFLY
> Season One, Episode 10: "War Stories"
> (or "Can't look, can't look... no, I mean, that is grotesque")
> I don't quite understand how the crew just happens to swing by a
> planet that Niska's orbiting without noticing it. Shouldn't one know
> where such a big structure lives?
I'm pretty sure that they did know that they were playing in Niska's
back yard. As soon as Zoe saw the shuttle burn marks she knew who had
Wash and Mal. I just don't think that they were too worried about it.
Worlds are big places, does someone doing business in Timbuktu spend
much time worrying about a crime boss that they pissed off in Kuala
Lumpur?
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> - I guess when fresh fruit is so rare, only go for the best), which
> introduces our crew very fleetingly being rich after "Ariel," which
> will be a plot point later. And it lets us know about Jayne's bout of
> generosity, which seems so strange to those who aren't privy to
i used to sometimes bite into an apple and sometimes slice it with a knife
one time i sliced in and found a worm
ive sliced open apples ever since
> the-skin thing is a bit much, but I do cringe at Niska cutting off the
> ear, both for the action itself and for how much I want to maul him
> for having so much fun putting on this show. Still, I do understand
it wouldve been nice to see niske splattered against various bulkheads
but we do see the real niske in the end
a whiney little cowardly rat
with all his concern about reputation
i suspect this attack and the success of the attack
could this really be the (psychological) end of little niske
> ...The defining image of the sequence for me. Maybe of the whole
> episode. I'm talking about Kaylee and River. In the heat of battle,
> Kaylee freezes up and can't shoot. Can't really blame her for that,
> and it fits neatly into her established catalogue of traits. Contrary
> to what some people may have thought during my _Angel_ reviews, I
> don't have a problem with one of the main cast being something of a
> coward, I just have a problem with a main cast member being Lorne.
i didnt see her as a coward
in reality humans are nonviolent to other humans
and tend only do violence to other humans if pathological
or if brainwashed or otherwise trained not to see their target as humans
(military basic training is brainwashing)
kaylee is showing the natural reaction of most humans to violence
people who claim humans are naturally violent
are ignoring evidence and just making an excuse for their own pathology
book very quickly strips shan yu of any profondity
and recognizes what he was really about
what is unnerving about river is not only the deadly accuracy
but the lack of violent emotion
everyone else is emotionally involved in the fight
and that makes them a little easier to understand
and it also means the natural barriers against violence are still in place
just temporarily breached
so kaylee doesnt need to fear that book or jayne or anyone
will pull out a gun and kill everyone at dinner without cause
river might
next time river might kill kaylee for an apple
not out of anger but because kaylee is a mere mechanical problem to be solved
(it also ties back to the idea that mal lets jayne live when jayne shows shame
shame means jayne has the emotions that make him comprehensible
and so ever so slightly trustworthy)
> Sadly, I haven't been able to enjoy the "this is something the captain
> has to do for himself" bit as much since it was pointed out that
> there's no reason for Zoe to say that in the first place. Still fun,
> though.
ive never seen any reason for that line in any show
except as an excuse for more pathological violence
so showing zoe has no reason to say it in the first place
resonates with me
meow arf meow - they are performing horrible experiments in space
major grubert is watching you - beware the bakalite
impeach the bastard - the airtight garage has you neo
One Bit Shy
news:1177771542.9...@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> FIREFLY
> Season One, Episode 10: "War Stories"
> Even though it's not actually the first scene (the first scene is all
> about Shan Yu, who, according to the commentary, was a late addition
> by Joss to help tie things together),
Joss likes to find a way to directly state a theme when he can. One of his
trademarks. I think he's been quite successful on the whole at pulling it
off.
> I always remember this one
> beginning with Kaylee chasing River through the ship. The latter
> isn't perfectly sane or anything, but she's functioning like she's a
> girl
That's one of my favorite scenes too. So charming and unaffected. It
strikes the emotional chord it's after perfectly.
> Generally, everyone's so
> happy. This can't bode well. It's in the nature of Mutant Enemy
> shows to torture its characters and see what they're made of, and make
> every tidbit of reserved happiness at the end of the story feel
> earned.
Yeah, as observed elsewhere, Joss is Shan Yu - as a writer anyway. But
there are a few nuances on the side that one can find in this episode too,
starting with Simon's challenge of whether one is truly seeking the real
man, or just enjoying the sadism. I've never seen anything from Joss on the
subject, but I imagine that it's something he questions about himself as he
produces these stories - unable to deny the thrill of the brutality, but
still coming through with profoundly clarifying character moments. I think
he does believe - as many do - that adversity makes the person.
On the other hand, the episode also makes an effort to touch upon the limits
of the concept. When we see Kaylee succumb to her fears and cower in the
corner, that's a real window onto a part of her character. Yet it doesn't
really say much about her at all. If you were to say we are shown her true
self there, then that's saying you don't know Kaylee. It's a useful
reminder of how blind such a test can be.
But at least we hope that Kaylee hasn't lost herself in the process. The
greater risk is that such a test will tear down the person, take away
something precious. I don't believe we get a full blown example of that,
but there is a hint of it with Wash - best seen when he ferociously declares
to Zoe that they're coming back for Mal. There's a brief moment of sadness
on Zoe's face then that I don't believe is explained by the prospect of the
rescue - which she surely knew would be attempted anyway. Rather I think
it's the sense that a great quality in Wash was lost when he turned hard.
It's not something she can blame him for - she understands all too well.
Indeed there's much to be proud of. But it still must of hurt to see his
free spirit turn vengeful.
This is the only time in the series that Zoe/Wash really makes sense to me
as a couple - at least from Zoe's side. Zoe is attracted to Wash
specifically because he's not the hardened veteran. He gives her what she's
lost herself - something that Mal couldn't give, which is why there could
never be romance between them, even though the trust and loyalty is
boundless. Wash is wrong about two husbands, though it takes standing with
Mal through torture to understand, thereby inadvertently risking the real
bond he has with Zoe. Personally I take Zoe bringing Wash the wife soup at
the end (specifically contrary to her attitude in OMR) as a kind of
desperate attempt to build back up Wash's free spirit. Thankfully it seems
to work. (The grin on his face is priceless.) Mal coming in to collect his
sex with Zoe helps too. It's too early in the series (if we imagined it
continuing) to truly break Wash down.
> So anyway, that introduces the fruit (and wow, those apples look good
> - I guess when fresh fruit is so rare, only go for the best),
I think you need to shop for better apples. They don't look that unusual to
me.
> Niska himself, it should be mentioned, comes off approximately ten
> times better than in "The Train Job." It could be a writing thing,
> but I mostly notice that the actor seems much more convincing pulling
> of the viciousness that the role requires. Taking a personal hand in
> the torture, or at least closely directing traffic, seems very much in
> line with the way he works. My favorite Niska moment is his goofy
> facial expression when he first lets Mal see who he's dealing with.
I still don't get what you don't like about him in The Train Job. He seems
like the same character to me - who I like. I don't have any criticism of
his character, but he does get saddled with one of the more awkward spots in
the episode when he stands silently while Mal and Wash argue about Zoe
through the torture. It's acceptable for purposes of the main story, but
really, I find it difficult to believe that Niska wouldn't interject to
force their attention upon him and the torture.
> Sub-plot aboard the ship has to do with Inara entertaining a
> counselor. I'm a bit more lukewarm here, plotwise,
It's not the plot that bothers me, but rather the dialogue between them that
I think is stiff and unbelievable. Very much out of character with the
series.
> although it
> doesn't take up enough screen time to make it a problem that it seems
> to mainly exist for Jayne's reactions. Particularly a certain line of
> dialogue. You know which one.
I also wasn't all that turned on by the counselor. However, I confess that
I can't help but think of that line when Kaylee is chasing River. (So I'm
shallow. Sue me.)
The background to that line is pretty funny too - Book struggling to raise
the weights and Inara rolling her eyes at Jayne. All in all a wonderful
Firefly moment.
> Mal gets my
> attention with how quickly he adapts and comes up with a way to hold
> out for a few more minutes. At one point he actually tells Wash
> "listen to me!" when he sees him starting to fade, potentially letting
> the audience in on what he's doing.
I think it's remarkably well done - not just for the moment it's happening,
but also for convincingly getting across to Wash what Mal is about, why Zoe
follows him, and then drawing that kind of loyalty out of Wash too.
You remark a lot about how dialogue is repeatedly used to impart multiple
ideas this episode. That too is a mark of Whedon series. One of the
functions it serves is efficiency in story telling. It's a big part of how
so many things can happen and so many ideas imparted in 40 minutes.
> Still, I do understand
> the opposing viewpoint, particularly since I know from experience that
> Joss and his cohorts are capable of doing slightly more with much less
> during torture sequences ("Five By Five" and "Damage" come to mind).
Maybe I'm just callous, but the torture doesn't stand out to me all that
much. You mention Five By Five and Damage. It's true that they directly
depict less, but the cruelty of it comes across much stronger IMO. The
thing about the bulk of the depiction in this episode is that it's so
comedic. The dialogue of course, but also the way they have Mal and Wash
jiggle and shake their jowls. There's an underlying silliness to the
physical elements that undercuts the cruelty of it all. So even though more
is shown, the overall impact on me is much less than many, many torture
scenes I've seen.
> Rather than being too visibly affected, Zoe remains steely cold and
> expressionless during the whole thing.
Except for the one look of sadness that I mentioned above.
> That can be a drawback in some
> contexts (from a TV perspective, I mean), but here I love it, since
> it's kinda what I assumed the character was capable of but hadn't had
> it proven yet. She's so cool, managing to look totally unflappable
> and badass no matter how much of a disadvantage she's at, going into
> enemy HQ unarmed and hoping that it'll even be possible to barter for
> her men's lives. Classic moment when she chooses an answer without
> waiting for Niska to finish his question, and another spot for an
> uncharacteristic act break. Meanwhile, of course, we've got Zoe the
> soldier, getting the lay of the land knowing that she'll have to lead
> an attack soon.
This is her best episode IMO. It so captures her operating at her peak. I
loved her eyes darting around the space station at the first visit - casing
it out for next time. It's kind of interesting, 'cause she doesn't really
explain her character. She just acts it. Yet, so much seems clearer about
her as we see how she reflects the environment she works best in and what
would make her follow Mal and how Wash isn't (wasn't) tainted by that life.
It's also a really good example of why I've commented elsewhere how Gina
Torres commands the screen when she's on it. I find my eyes fixated on her
this episode.
> That attack is a highlight of the series, with the whole crew (save
> Inara, whom I guess makes more valuable contributions through her
> connections with the respectable folk) working together on this
> suicide mission. Here the story takes aim at some "stealth" targets,
> to borrow a term that's come up in the review threads before. The
> story of the moment is about Mal, Wash, and Zoe, but the kidnapping
> has its effects on the others too.
It goes to the broader theme. Almost everybody is tested under fire this
episode.
> Even in the thick of things, we're
> laying groundwork for further developments in what should have been a
> multi-season project. Thus we get moments like Book with his only
> Chinese profanity of the series and strapping on a weapon without
> hesitation
And using it effectively and coldly. Definitely something odd about that.
> and Jayne hesitating and then committing himself, armed to
> the teeth.
His performance in battle is to be expected. His moment, I believe, came
when Wash rambled on about not leaving a man behind without understanding
the implication to Jayne. (Also making for one of my bigger laughs when he
follows up by cocking the ridiculously puny pistol.)
> Have I mentioned how cool Zoe is? The staging during the
> attack is a mixed bag - the use of the Mule is great, while the
> logistics of where everyone is in relation to everyone else isn't as
> clear as it could be. On the whole it's a reasonable gun-fight, and
> it's in large part about setting the stage for...
I thought the action was great myself. I was very much on the edge of my
seat throughout. Enough to make myself wonder if maybe the series really
could have used more action in it.
> ...The defining image of the sequence for me. Maybe of the whole
> episode. I'm talking about Kaylee and River. In the heat of battle,
> Kaylee freezes up and can't shoot. Can't really blame her for that,
> and it fits neatly into her established catalogue of traits. Contrary
> to what some people may have thought during my _Angel_ reviews, I
> don't have a problem with one of the main cast being something of a
> coward, I just have a problem with a main cast member being Lorne.
I don't think there was confusion about that.
> But then someone else is there to be the hero. I've been waiting for
> ten episodes for River to come out of the dark and start killin' the
> people who'd try to kill her right back. As a viewer, I "want" it to
> be a big empowering moment. But the show has something more
> interesting in mind, so here the thrill is tempered by the fact that
> she does it in such a... well, River-y manner. Probably a little too
> soon for her to be trying action-hero one-liners with that little
> smirk.
I didn't react that way at all. First of all there's, Whoa!! did you see
that? I think it's the biggest moment of that sort in the series. I was
totally not expecting it, though in retrospect it fits perfectly. As for
River's remark, I don't think she truly comprehended what she had done. It
wasn't an action-hero one-liner so much as it was the girl playing at one -
very much as Kaylee had with the apple. The match-up with the earlier scene
isn't just to set up the line. It's a contrast between Kaylee and River so
as to illuminate the latter. Kaylee was playing at the start, but is
overwhelmed by the reality. River could very well be overwhelmed by the
reality if she understood it, but she's not acting in full control of her
faculties. Something that we don't understand that has been done to her
took over for a moment - that River internalizes as a contest. Briefly.
Confusion settles upon her very quickly.
The net effect for me is a line that's nearly as scary as the deed.
> Kaylee's reactions suggest that she's almost as scared now as
> when she was being shot at.
For good reason I think. Later (and looking ahead a few episodes), we also
see Kaylee burdened with the lone knowledge of what River did. I think that
definitely bothers her more than her own failing under fire.
> Fillion and Torres must have had a blast performing that last scene,
> which is really damn funny. The delivery on "take me, sir. Take me
> hard" would be enough on its own, but it's the facial expressions that
> kill me. I generally like the way it ends, with the tantalizing bit
> of spanking, the call-back to the bunk line, and Jayne finishing
> things off with a non sequitur.
I definitely giggle at their sorry attempt at going in for a kiss. I also
get a kick out of Jayne nonchalantly whacking Mal on his sore chest. All in
all, a very satisfying conclusion.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Gripping, and a strong candidate for best-of-
> series.
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
Ariel and War Stories are the only two episodes I'm sure I saw when aired.
(At the time I had no idea the show had any connection to the maker of
Buffy.) A hell of a pair to walk in on. But I also was getting Firefly
confused with another space show on at the time - I don't remember what -
and spent a fruitless period after trying to find it again - not even
remembering what network I saw it on. Which, of course, isn't a surprise
considering how close to the end the series was. It wasn't there to find.
This is my second or third favorite episode of the series - flip flopping
with OMR. Definitely an Excellent. We'll see if #1 still stands up a
little ways ahead.
OBS
William George Ferguson
wrote:
[responding to AoQ]
>> So anyway, that introduces the fruit (and wow, those apples look good
>> - I guess when fresh fruit is so rare, only go for the best), which
>> introduces our crew very fleetingly being rich after "Ariel," which
>> will be a plot point later. And it lets us know about Jayne's bout of
>> generosity, which seems so strange to those who aren't privy to
>
>i used to sometimes bite into an apple and sometimes slice it with a knife
>one time i sliced in and found a worm
>
>ive sliced open apples ever since
As they say, it beats the devil out of finding half a worm.
>> episode. I'm talking about Kaylee and River. In the heat of battle,
>> Kaylee freezes up and can't shoot. Can't really blame her for that,
>> and it fits neatly into her established catalogue of traits. Contrary
>> to what some people may have thought during my _Angel_ reviews, I
>> don't have a problem with one of the main cast being something of a
>> coward, I just have a problem with a main cast member being Lorne.
>
>i didnt see her as a coward
>in reality humans are nonviolent to other humans
>and tend only do violence to other humans if pathological
>or if brainwashed or otherwise trained not to see their target as humans
>(military basic training is brainwashing)
First, I don't see Kaylee as a coward either. You don't have to be brave
to shoot a gun (you don't have to be cowardly either).
Second, your opinion on 'humankind's inherent pacifism', it's wrong,
primarily because it's too simplex. Humankind is not simplex. Humankind
is also extremely agressive. From as far back as we know through the
forseeable future, humankind as a group has always seen violence as a
perfectly acceptable tool to accomplish a goal. If only psychopaths see
the world that way, then at least a very large minority of the human race
is psychopathic (which kind of makes the term meaningless). Mankind is
complex. We, individually and in groups, are capable of gentleness and
kindness, we are capable harshness and viciousness. The same person can be
b oth kind and mean at different points, responding to very similar initial
stimuli. We're complex that way.
Basically, any statement that says 'humans are [any one thing]' is going to
be wrong because it is incomplete, and tries to force the human race into
too tight a mold.
>kaylee is showing the natural reaction of most humans to violence
Well, she's showing her natural reaction to violence, it's stretching the
point a little to say 'most humans'.
>people who claim humans are naturally violent
>are ignoring evidence and just making an excuse for their own pathology
>book very quickly strips shan yu of any profondity
>and recognizes what he was really about
People who say 'humans are naturally violent' are just as wrong, and miss
the point, just as much as people who say 'humans are naturally
non-violent'.
>what is unnerving about river is not only the deadly accuracy
>but the lack of violent emotion
Yes, the disassociation. As Kaylee says in OiS, she just did the math.
Oh, by the way, River qualifies as one of your 'peaceful' humans. She very
peacefully and calmly killed five people in less than two seconds. It was
not a violent act. See your commentary below on the others, who are
engaged in violent acts.
>everyone else is emotionally involved in the fight
>and that makes them a little easier to understand
>and it also means the natural barriers against violence are still in place
>just temporarily breached
>so kaylee doesnt need to fear that book or jayne or anyone
>will pull out a gun and kill everyone at dinner without cause
--
"Oh Buffy, you really do need to have
every square inch of your ass kicked."
- Willow Rosenberg
George W Harris
<wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:
:Oh, by the way, River qualifies as one of your 'peaceful' humans. She very
:peacefully and calmly killed five people in less than two seconds.
<Monty Python And The Holy Grail>
"Three, sir."
</Monty Python And The Holy Grail>
--
"If you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce, they taste more like
prunes than rhubarb does" -Groucho Marx
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> primarily because it's too simplex. Humankind is not simplex. Humankind
check the real anthropological evidence
not the excuses
the real history of war
not the self propagating abuse
(hint the species is 100 000 to 300 000 years old
modern war is only 10 000 to 15 000 years old
research how war went from sexual display to organized theft
why people would perticipate in organized theft
and their status in society overall
and the effect of warfare on their emotional and psychological make up
hint again check out studies on mob violence
and identification of targets of mob violence)
oh and you forgot to point out your own proud military service
> Oh, by the way, River qualifies as one of your 'peaceful' humans. She very
do you really present river as a normal nonpathological individual?
George W Harris
with Simon and Book, but...). Jayne ended the last episode
feeling shame,a nd now we see that he also feels guilt. Chills
the blood. One wonders at the train of thought that led to
this gesture. One would expect Jayne's feelings of contrition
to be directed to Mal, but this gesture is as broadly targeted
as possible. Does this signal a sense of belonging to the
crew as a whole? A sense of community, of family?
We also get the first scene of Jayne and Book
spending time together, in the hilarious weight-lifting scene.
If you'd asked me, I would have thought the Jayne-Book
relationship was established before episode 10, but there
you have it. Again, one wonders at the motivation for this.
What could lead Jayne to seek the company of a man of
God? Is it more than desire for a work-out partner?
Then, when Wash and Zoe are preparing to rescue
Mal, Jayne says it's suicide. But he goes along. Contrast
this with "The Train Job", when as soon as Mal and Zoe
are absent, he's ready to abandon them and take over the
ship. Either Jayne's evolved considerably, or he realizes
that without Wash, there's no one to pilot the ship.
Not much to say about the Funniest Torture Scene
Ever, except that I think Niska's reaction is somewhat
lacking. I imagine when Niska tortures someone he expects
to have their full attention. I would think that being ignored
would inspire feelings of annoyance, but none such are
apparent.
Once again Inara takes the opportunity to remind her
client that a companion chooses her clients. Really? That's
totally new information that we've never heard before. The
Councillor, played by Katherine Kendall, reminds me of a
young Veronica Cartwright.
Unfortunately this is the one episode I missed on first
viewing, so my first exposure to the River shooting scene
was a "previously on..." segment, which lacked the emotional
impact. Still, this is quite possibly the strongest "What the
fuck!" moment ina Joss Whedon series, and certainly in
"Firefly". This is a big turning point for River. We figured
that she'd show improvement after "Ariel", but this is a big
turning point. Still, upon reflection should we really be so
surprised? "Everything she did, music, Maths, theoretical
physics -- even dance -- there was nothing that didn't come
as naturally to her as breathing does to us." That scene
takes this to its logical conclusion.
Note: the Nathan Fillion series "Two Guys, A Girl
and a Pizza Place" also had an episode called "War
Stories". I don't know if it involved the two guys being
kidnapped and tortured, and the girl rescuing them.
I like "War Stories" a lot, but I don't think it really
has the depth to make it as interesting as the best
episodes - "Serenity", "Jaynestown", "Ariel", "Out of Gas"
and "Objects in Space" all rank ahead of "War Stories"
for me. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, mind -
just that it lacks greatness.
--
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar." -Wash, 'Serenity'
Zombie Elvis
<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>Mal and Wash arguing about their relationship with Zoe while having
>current pumped through them is very ME of them. The personal stuff is
>always more important than the villains. I enjoy the way this episode
>actually makes it part of the point, where they very specifically use
>this rivalry as a defense mechanism. Tudyk is critical of his own
>acting a little in the commentary; I dunno, except that Wash doesn't
>do a whole lot for me during these sequences, but Mal gets my
>attention with how quickly he adapts and comes up with a way to hold
>out for a few more minutes. At one point he actually tells Wash
>"listen to me!" when he sees him starting to fade, potentially letting
>the audience in on what he's doing. (The episode later takes a second
>to spell it out, too.)
>
Funniest torture scene ever -- both for Mal and Wash's bickering in
between jolts and for Niska's bemusement at their behavior. This scene
is just so brilliant on multiple levels. First you have the scene
itself but there is also a strong subtext as to the reason that our
heroes find themselves in this predicament in the first place. I
always felt that the resolution of "The Train Job" was too neat, to
clean, too easy -- they kill the bad guy, give back the boss's money,
give back the stolen medicine and fly off on their merry way. But here
in "War Stories," you see TTJ chickens come home to roost.
Mal and Wash are essentially suffering the consequences for being men
with a conscience. They could have just delivered that medicine to
Niska and gotten paid and the people of that dusty little world would
have never known what happened. But instead, they gave back the
medicine and the next time they cross paths with Niska, he hauls them
in for torture and a show. This is a brutal 'verse where good men are
punished and evil men are rewarded. It's a message that appears
several times in Firefly but no episode hammers that point harder than
"War Stories."
>So one thing I'd never really noticed before but became apparent on
>this viewing (joke. Ha ha) is that there's a lot of torture in "War
>Stories." It's bloody and brutal, and I've heard several people
>turned off the episode just because of how intense and arguably
>gratuitous it gets in places, particularly the ear. It's an old
>argument about how much to show and how much to keep tastefully off-
I often wonder if these are the same people who say "so and so
couldn't scare a five year old" when the bad guy doesn't go far
enough. There is always a delicate balance between servicing the needs
of the plot and making your villains truly hateful. A nice contrast
would be the character of Holtz in Angel who would often pull his
punches when dealing with Angel and never really came off as the
badass the writers asked us to believe him to be. Now Holtz was a
fairly sympathetic as far as villains go, so in retrospect I
understand why the PTBs never made him too ruthless.
>screen. I'm generally going to give the episode a pass on the
>explicitness count simply because, well, it does its job. The under-
>the-skin thing is a bit much, but I do cringe at Niska cutting off the
>ear, both for the action itself and for how much I want to maul him
>for having so much fun putting on this show. Still, I do understand
>the opposing viewpoint, particularly since I know from experience that
>Joss and his cohorts are capable of doing slightly more with much less
>during torture sequences ("Five By Five" and "Damage" come to mind).
Unlike Holtz, Niska is presented as a truly evil man with no real
redeeming characteristics. But he's also made an object of humor by
the episode first when Mal and Wash bicker with each other rather than
beg for mercy and again when Zoe won't let him finish his little
speech. So it makes sense that in order to balance the humor Niska
needs to be more vicious here than Holtz was in Angel.
--
"Yes, yes, this is a fertile land and we shall thrive. We will rule
over all this land and we will call it,...'This Land.'
I think we should call it your grave!
Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal.
Hah, hah, hah. Mine is an evil laugh."
-- Wash
Roberto Castillo
roberto...@ameritech.net
Zombie Elvis
<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>Sadly, I haven't been able to enjoy the "this is something the captain
>has to do for himself" bit as much since it was pointed out that
>there's no reason for Zoe to say that in the first place. Still fun,
>though.
I've never had a problem with it. Sure it's just a line which was
inserted as an excuse to make fun of action move/TV cliches but for me
that's more than enough of a reason.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> in "War Stories," you see TTJ chickens come home to roost.
multiple chickens came home to roost
niska based his power on his ability to terrorize people
his fortress was invaded
his henchmen killed on his own ground
his prize prisoner rescued
niska himself crawling away in terror
its quite possibly the end of niska the crime boss
especially if the serenity crew talks about their exploit
and niskas men dont explain his sudden recruitment drive
> Unlike Holtz, Niska is presented as a truly evil man with no real
> redeeming characteristics. But he's also made an object of humor by
holtz is a truly evil man with no redeeming characteristic
Apteryx
news:1177771542.9...@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> FIREFLY
> Season One, Episode 10: "War Stories"
>
> - I guess when fresh fruit is so rare, only go for the best),
Well no, if it's really rare, any will do. And the best is rare even amongst
the rare. Once again I grumble a little at the oddity of primary produce
being rare and expensive when there seems to be no shortage of empty land on
those outer worlds. If apples are so expensive, why haven't more settlers
grown apple trees?
> Mal and Wash arguing about their relationship with Zoe while having
> current pumped through them is very ME of them. The personal stuff is
> always more important than the villains. I enjoy the way this episode
> actually makes it part of the point, where they very specifically use
> this rivalry as a defense mechanism. Tudyk is critical of his own
> acting a little in the commentary; I dunno, except that Wash doesn't
> do a whole lot for me during these sequences, but Mal gets my
> attention with how quickly he adapts and comes up with a way to hold
> out for a few more minutes. At one point he actually tells Wash
> "listen to me!" when he sees him starting to fade, potentially letting
> the audience in on what he's doing. (The episode later takes a second
> to spell it out, too.)
It does reflect on Niska's skills as a torturer that they get away with it
thought . All well and good to let the heroes act cool under torture, but it
detracts a little from the setup of Niska as a master torturer. Maybe he's
not so much good at it as an enthusiasic amateur.
>
> That attack is a highlight of the series, with the whole crew (save
> Inara, whom I guess makes more valuable contributions through her
> connections with the respectable folk) working together on this
> suicide mission.
Still not a great fan of the action scenes. At times in the battle of the
passageways. mu thoughts turn to how good Zoe would be playing "Doom." But
the drama of it works, with the team accepting very long odds (even despite
the reconaissance efforts of Zoe) to get Mal back.
> ...The defining image of the sequence for me. Maybe of the whole
> episode. I'm talking about Kaylee and River. In the heat of battle,
> Kaylee freezes up and can't shoot. Can't really blame her for that,
> and it fits neatly into her established catalogue of traits. Contrary
> to what some people may have thought during my _Angel_ reviews, I
> don't have a problem with one of the main cast being something of a
> coward, I just have a problem with a main cast member being Lorne.
> But then someone else is there to be the hero. I've been waiting for
> ten episodes for River to come out of the dark and start killin' the
> people who'd try to kill her right back. As a viewer, I "want" it to
> be a big empowering moment. But the show has something more
> interesting in mind, so here the thrill is tempered by the fact that
> she does it in such a... well, River-y manner. Probably a little too
> soon for her to be trying action-hero one-liners with that little
> smirk. Kaylee's reactions suggest that she's almost as scared now as
> when she was being shot at.
Great moment. And yes, much more interesting than merely River fighting
back. Kaylee has good reason to be scared. Finding out that all this time
you've been around a mentally unbalanced human war machine can be unsettling
at the best of times.
> Sadly, I haven't been able to enjoy the "this is something the captain
> has to do for himself" bit as much since it was pointed out that
> there's no reason for Zoe to say that in the first place. Still fun,
> though.
Definitely still fun. It might have been better if they had given her an
angle of view that made her comment make more sense in the first place, but
still fun.
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Gripping, and a strong candidate for best-of-
> series.
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
Only Good for me. But genuinely good. Good story telling about Mal and Zoe
and Wash, and a great reveal about River. It's my 8th favourite FF episode.
The rating I gave it is the same as for the 65th best BtVS episode, Seeing
Red, and falls between the 26th and 27th best AtS episodes, Guise Will Be
Guise, and RM W/A VU.
--
Apteryx
Apteryx
news:dsample-00B79E...@news.giganews.com...
> In article <1177771542.9...@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>> FIREFLY
>> Season One, Episode 10: "War Stories"
>> (or "Can't look, can't look... no, I mean, that is grotesque")
>
>> I don't quite understand how the crew just happens to swing by a
>> planet that Niska's orbiting without noticing it. Shouldn't one know
>> where such a big structure lives?
>
> I'm pretty sure that they did know that they were playing in Niska's
> back yard. As soon as Zoe saw the shuttle burn marks she knew who had
> Wash and Mal. I just don't think that they were too worried about it.
> Worlds are big places, does someone doing business in Timbuktu spend
> much time worrying about a crime boss that they pissed off in Kuala
> Lumpur?
I agree that they knew and weren't worried. But I think they were a little
sillier not to have worried about it than that example suggests. Timbuktu in
our world is a lot less accessible from Kuala Lumpur than any part of that
FF world is from an orbiting space station. Still, a world is a big place,
and they were used to people looking for them, and counting on not being
found.
--
Apteryx
Stephen Tempest
> Once again Inara takes the opportunity to remind her
>client that a companion chooses her clients. Really? That's
>totally new information that we've never heard before.
We saw it in Shindig. When she arrived on-planet, she had a
screen-full of people asking for her, er - companionship... she
rejected at least one of them before accepting Atherton Wing's
request.
>my first exposure to the River shooting scene
>was a "previously on..." segment, which lacked the emotional
>impact. Still, this is quite possibly the strongest "What the
>fuck!" moment ina Joss Whedon series
Same here.
Incidentally, regarding Kaylee I just want to say that her reaction
isn't cowardice, it's perfectly normal combat paralysis - which would
happen to the vast majority of untrained human beings suddenly thrown
into a firefight. The way the average film character can pick up a gun
and happily begin blowing away bad guys is unrealistic, and I was
really impressed to see Firefly not falling into this cliché.
(Mal and Zoe are trained and experienced soldiers, so we'd expect them
to cope... Jayne is either a trained soldier or a mild psychopath (or
both) so should equally have no trouble in a fight. Book's the
interesting one... his complete lack of combat paralysis is another
strong indication that he's not your average preacher. Simon shows
unusual levels of courage, determination and single-mindedness
allowing him to function normally, but then we knew that about his
character already. And finally, I'd expect Wash and Inara to react to
combat the same way Kaylee does.
Stephen
George W Harris
<ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
:George W Harris <gha...@mundsprung.com> writes:
:
:> Once again Inara takes the opportunity to remind her
:>client that a companion chooses her clients. Really? That's
:>totally new information that we've never heard before.
:
:We saw it in Shindig. When she arrived on-planet, she had a
:screen-full of people asking for her, er - companionship... she
:rejected at least one of them before accepting Atherton Wing's
:request.
Thank you. That absolutely clarifies my
completely non-sarcastic remark.
:Stephen
--
"If you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce, they taste more like
prunes than rhubarb does" -Groucho Marx
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
Michael Ikeda
news:f11ta7$lht$1...@aioe.org:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1177771542.9...@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>> FIREFLY
>> Season One, Episode 10: "War Stories"
>>
>> So anyway, that introduces the fruit (and wow, those apples
>> look good - I guess when fresh fruit is so rare, only go for
>> the best),
>
> Well no, if it's really rare, any will do. And the best is rare
> even amongst the rare. Once again I grumble a little at the
> oddity of primary produce being rare and expensive when there
> seems to be no shortage of empty land on those outer worlds. If
> apples are so expensive, why haven't more settlers grown apple
> trees?
>
Because there are lots of places that aren't suitable for growing
apple trees. The same goes for other forms of primary produce.
Places that happen to be suitable for growing specific types of
primary produce may have those types of primary produce. But the
infrastructure needed to get that primary produce widely distributed
simply doesn't exist out in the fringes.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
crone
George W Harris <gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote:
The
> Councillor, played by Katherine Kendall, reminds me of a
> young Veronica Cartwright.
YES!! Thank you. I have been scratching my head over that for a year or
so... who the heck does she remind me of.....
I will sleep soundly now.
--
C.O.Jones
Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> I was
> really impressed to see Firefly not falling into this cliché.
Firefly did not fall into a LOT of clichés. One of the many reasons I
loved the show.
--
////////// \\\\\\\\\\\
The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.
-- Harlan Ellison
C.O.Jones
> And finally, I'd expect Wash and Inara to react to
> combat the same way Kaylee does.
Why? Inara would have certainly had defensive training through her
guild, and Wash was a trained pilot, who are ordinarily taught SOME
survival skills. Plus, he is married to Zoe.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> It does reflect on Niska's skills as a torturer that they get away with it
> thought . All well and good to let the heroes act cool under torture, but it
> detracts a little from the setup of Niska as a master torturer. Maybe he's
> not so much good at it as an enthusiasic amateur.
While I agree that his role in the scene just standing by and watching
them argue is a bit awkward, I don't see any reason to assume that
he's supposed to be a master. Knowing his character, it's perfectly
reasonable to assume that he's not very good at interrogating or
torturing people himself. He just likes it. "Enthusiastic amateur"
seems about right.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
<DELETEMETOREPLYrobertocasti...@ameritech.net> wrote:
> Funniest torture scene ever -- both for Mal and Wash's bickering in
> between jolts and for Niska's bemusement at their behavior. This scene
> is just so brilliant on multiple levels. First you have the scene
> itself but there is also a strong subtext as to the reason that our
> heroes find themselves in this predicament in the first place. I
> always felt that the resolution of "The Train Job" was too neat, to
> clean, too easy -- they kill the bad guy, give back the boss's money,
> give back the stolen medicine and fly off on their merry way. But here
> in "War Stories," you see TTJ chickens come home to roost.
>
> Mal and Wash are essentially suffering the consequences for being men
> with a conscience. They could have just delivered that medicine to
> Niska and gotten paid and the people of that dusty little world would
> have never known what happened. But instead, they gave back the
> medicine and the next time they cross paths with Niska, he hauls them
> in for torture and a show. This is a brutal 'verse where good men are
> punished and evil men are rewarded. It's a message that appears
> several times in Firefly but no episode hammers that point harder than
> "War Stories."
Agreed with most of that, although I don't think the 'verse is that
directly judgmental. Good behavior makes things difficult simply
because in their line of work, it can be a way of making enemies.
It's a brutal place - the visitors in "Out Of Gas" are probably the
most prominent example of the way things are for me - but it's brutal
on everyone. And after all, Mal and his group are still flying.
> >So one thing I'd never really noticed before but became apparent on
> >this viewing (joke. Ha ha) is that there's a lot of torture in "War
> >Stories." It's bloody and brutal, and I've heard several people
> >turned off the episode just because of how intense and arguably
> >gratuitous it gets in places, particularly the ear. It's an old
> >argument about how much to show and how much to keep tastefully off-
>
> I often wonder if these are the same people who say "so and so
> couldn't scare a five year old" when the bad guy doesn't go far
> enough. There is always a delicate balance between servicing the needs
> of the plot and making your villains truly hateful. A nice contrast
> would be the character of Holtz in Angel who would often pull his
> punches when dealing with Angel and never really came off as the
> badass the writers asked us to believe him to be. Now Holtz was a
> fairly sympathetic as far as villains go, so in retrospect I
> understand why the PTBs never made him too ruthless.
What they were trying to accomplish with Holtz is different than
Niska. We weren't supposed to view Holtz as a badass so much as
someone whose soul had become completely twisted, at every level. His
role on ATS was to always make us think there might be some semblance
of reason or mercy in him, and then to keep peeling back layers to
show us that there was nothing there. That's why he passes up chance
after chance to kill or hurt Angel; to the very end, he pulls his
punches only out of an attempt to pick his shots and try for the cuts
that'd cause the most pain.
-AOQ
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> on everyone. And after all, Mal and his group are still flying.
and its brutal because people make it brutal
self fulfilling prophecy
Stephen Tempest
>> And finally, I'd expect Wash and Inara to react to
>> combat the same way Kaylee does.
>
>Why? Inara would have certainly had defensive training through her
>guild, and Wash was a trained pilot, who are ordinarily taught SOME
>survival skills. Plus, he is married to Zoe.
Being a trained pilot doesn't mentally prepare you for combat, any
more than being a trained driver does, surely? Unless Wash was once a
*combat* pilot, which I don't think is ever indicated.
Basically, he's totally unused to being in a situation where people
are shooting at him trying to kill him, and where he's expected to
shoot back at them. The typical (non-Hollywood) reaction to that is to
freeze up or hide behind the nearest cover - and either not shoot back
at all, or just point your gun in the general direction of the enemy
and pull down the trigger without really looking. Even a lot of
trained but inexperienced _soldiers_ react that way in their first few
combats.
As for Inara, she may have learned how to use a sword and (from the
film) a bow, but unless the Companions' Guild are really a secret
order of ninja assassins, she's unlikely to have combat experience
either...
Stephen
William George Ferguson
wrote:
>> Second, your opinion on 'humankind's inherent pacifism', it's wrong,
>> primarily because it's too simplex. Humankind is not simplex. Humankind
>check the real anthropological evidence
>not the excuses
>the real history of war
>not the self propagating abuse
So you believe that human beings are simplex creatures?
The anthropological evidence is pretty clear. When you get enough people
in a given area, some of them are violent, and others are either cowed or
violent in turn. This does not mean that 'humans are inherently violent'
it just means that some people are violent at some times. The more people
in a given area, the more you're likely to get those people and those
times.
>(hint the species is 100 000 to 300 000 years old
Depending on where you make the demarcation. The 'last hominid standing'
view generally places it at about 200,000 years.
>modern war is only 10 000 to 15 000 years old
Depending on what you mean by 'modern'. Many historians will argue that
'modern war' is only 95 years old (referring to the fairly extreme
structural changes in warfare which 'started' with WWI). Others will place
the bar further back, at the widespread use of firearms.
In any case, 'war', as we are using the word, generally needs large
organized social structures. Those are only 10,000 to 15,000 years old,
so, of course, there weren't 'wars' before that, unless our knowledge of
pre-history is significantly wrong. There was human against human violence
older than that both individual and group, the archeological record is
fairly clear about that.
Again, this does not mean that human beings are 'inherently violent'. It
just means that humans are capable of violence and will use it against
other humans on occasion (the more humans you get in a given area, the more
likely that some of them will be violent towards other humans, and the more
likely that other humans will respond in kind). Humans can also peacefully
cooperate with other humans (anthropological evidence is fairly clear that
humans have been social animals as far back as anthropological evidence
goes).
>research how war went from sexual display to organized theft
War did not originate as sexual display. Some forms of human against human
violence could be taken as originating as sexual display, but really only
as a subset of dominance games (setting the pecking order). Every species
of social animal I know of, other than hive-mind type insects (where the
social order is wired in), engage in dominance games to establish social
order. These dominance games very commonly include the sexual pecking
order. Humans are certainly not exempt from any of this.
'War' couldn't come along until 'civilization' came along, and
'civilization' couldn't come along until there was a dense enough
population to require the organization tools (primarily true farming as
opposed to 'educated gathering') to support that population, which pretty
neccesarily (and pretty rapidly, historically speaking) leads to the
infrastructure that leads to civilization.
By the time 'war' came along, the pattern of using violence to
establish/maintain the social order, and to defend 'us' against the 'other'
was well established. The most peaceful 'civilized' societies we've seen
in history had a strongly static social order, and relatively little
contact with outside 'civilized' societies..
>why people would perticipate in organized theft
>and their status in society overall
The dominants of the society getting the lion's share (whether you're
talking about lions, or chimps, or chickens, or humans) is not perceived by
the dominants as 'theft' but as their just due. As humans, this is one of
the very old behaviors that we're trying to grow out of.
>and the effect of warfare on their emotional and psychological make up
You won't get me to argue that warfare has a 'good' effect.
>hint again check out studies on mob violence
>and identification of targets of mob violence)
The outliers and the 'other'. This is not new, and it is not something
that developed over the course of time in the human race. It is a behavior
that is likely as old as the human race, and can be seen throughout the
animal kingdom. Again, this isn't something that we grew into, it's
something we're trying to grow out of.
>oh and you forgot to point out your own proud military service
In what way is my military service, or lack of it, relevent in any way to
this topic? If you really want to know, I served in the U.S. Army from
1967 to 1970. I don't think that gives me any particular cachet to
'rightness', anymore than it does George H. W. Bush, John Kerry, Dwight
Eisenhower, or Jimmy Carter. The fact that all four of them served in the
military does not establish the 'rightness' or wrongness' of any of them.
The fact that Bill Clinton and Dick Cheyney did not serve is equally
irrelevent to their individual 'rightness' or 'wrongness'.
>> Oh, by the way, River qualifies as one of your 'peaceful' humans. She very
>
>do you really present river as a normal nonpathological individual?
No, I'm pointing out that there are emotionally violent people that are
non-pathological, and emotionally nonviolent people who are pathological.
Again, humans are complex, any attempt to cram all of them into any one
single-issue pigeonhole is going to be wrong.
--
... and my sister is a vampire slayer, her best friend is a witch who
went bonkers and tried to destroy the world, um, I actually used to be
a little ball of energy until about two years ago when some monks
changed the past and made me Buffy's sister and for some reason, a big
klepto. My best friends are Leticia Jones, who moved to San Diego
because this town is evil, and a floppy eared demon named Clem.
(Dawn's fantasy of her intro speech in "Lessons", from the shooting script)
Arbitrar Of Quality
> "Don Sample" <dsam...@synapse.net> wrote in message
>
> news:dsample-00B79E...@news.giganews.com...
>
>
>
> > In article <1177771542.998418.198...@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> > Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> FIREFLY
> >> Season One, Episode 10: "War Stories"
> >> (or "Can't look, can't look... no, I mean, that is grotesque")
>
> >> I don't quite understand how the crew just happens to swing by a
> >> planet that Niska's orbiting without noticing it. Shouldn't one know
> >> where such a big structure lives?
>
> > I'm pretty sure that they did know that they were playing in Niska's
> > back yard. As soon as Zoe saw the shuttle burn marks she knew who had
> > Wash and Mal. I just don't think that they were too worried about it.
> > Worlds are big places, does someone doing business in Timbuktu spend
> > much time worrying about a crime boss that they pissed off in Kuala
> > Lumpur?
>
> I agree that they knew and weren't worried. But I think they were a little
> sillier not to have worried about it than that example suggests. Timbuktu in
> our world is a lot less accessible from Kuala Lumpur than any part of that
> FF world is from an orbiting space station. Still, a world is a big place,
> and they were used to people looking for them, and counting on not being
> found.
Plus, many of FF's worlds are small moons, and the show (especially
episodes like "Safe") tends to follow the _Star Trek_ model that
treats a planet as functionally the size of a small city.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
wrote:
> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges <mair_fh...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >> episode. I'm talking about Kaylee and River. In the heat of battle,
> >> Kaylee freezes up and can't shoot. Can't really blame her for that,
> >> and it fits neatly into her established catalogue of traits. Contrary
> >> to what some people may have thought during my _Angel_ reviews, I
> >> don't have a problem with one of the main cast being something of a
> >> coward, I just have a problem with a main cast member being Lorne.
>
> >i didnt see her as a coward
> >in reality humans are nonviolent to other humans
> >and tend only do violence to other humans if pathological
> >or if brainwashed or otherwise trained not to see their target as humans
> >(military basic training is brainwashing)
>
> First, I don't see Kaylee as a coward either. You don't have to be brave
> to shoot a gun (you don't have to be cowardly either).
[sigh] Word choice again. This goes back to the ATS threads, when I
complained about Lorne's ability to instantly win any fight for Team
Angel that he busted out only on seemingly random occassions. I got a
few criticisms saying that I wasn't appreciating that Lorne was a bit
of a coward and had unrealistic expectations of him (motivations and
actions making some semblance of sense? On a TV show? Who needs
that?). This is just a mention of the fact that I'm perfectly fine
with one of our heroes freezing up and/or running away in the thick of
battle in a situation in which it's understandable for them to do so.
Like in "War Stories."
-AOQ
Donny Macro
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1177958264.6...@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
The other day while driving, (and squinting) I had a vision of a Firefly
type 'Verse set in this solar system; no FTL, no FTL communications, no
artificial gravity.... Persephone, Belleraphon, Boros, Haven and a multitude
(hundreds) of others were all O'neil colonies, Earth-that-was now an
asteroid belt, Instead of the "Central planets" pretty much Mars and a few
larger, richer O'neil colonies, perhaps spinning hollowed out asteroids...
and mining operations of the sytem's asteroid belts...
Because as you say, if they are going to treat each planet like a small
city... it might as well be a small city.
I am not sure but I think travel from one rotating O'neil colony to another
could be almost energy free, let go at the right point of rotation and
momentum carries you to the next one, with perhaps a boost from a solar
sail.... More in keeping with those on the edge of poverty then using the
massive energy it would take to travel around planetary distances every day.
> -AOQ
>
>
Michael Ikeda
news:1177901035.2...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:
>
> What they were trying to accomplish with Holtz is different than
> Niska. We weren't supposed to view Holtz as a badass so much as
> someone whose soul had become completely twisted, at every
> level. His role on ATS was to always make us think there might
> be some semblance of reason or mercy in him, and then to keep
> peeling back layers to show us that there was nothing there.
> That's why he passes up chance after chance to kill or hurt
> Angel; to the very end, he pulls his punches only out of an
> attempt to pick his shots and try for the cuts that'd cause the
> most pain.
In a way, Holtz's thirst for vengeance turns him into a human version
of Angelus.
Although with a much more limited choice of targets...
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Michael Ikeda <mmi...@erols.com> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
> news:1177901035.2...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:
>
>
> >
> > What they were trying to accomplish with Holtz is different than
> > Niska. We weren't supposed to view Holtz as a badass so much as
> > someone whose soul had become completely twisted, at every
> > level. His role on ATS was to always make us think there might
> > be some semblance of reason or mercy in him, and then to keep
> > peeling back layers to show us that there was nothing there.
> > That's why he passes up chance after chance to kill or hurt
> > Angel; to the very end, he pulls his punches only out of an
> > attempt to pick his shots and try for the cuts that'd cause the
> > most pain.
>
> In a way, Holtz's thirst for vengeance turns him into a human version
> of Angelus.
>
> Although with a much more limited choice of targets...
as seen with angels humans
baby connor
and even his own merry band
holtz had no problems killing humans to do his performance art
George W Harris
<ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
:
:As for Inara, she may have learned how to use a sword and (from the
:film) a bow, but unless the Companions' Guild are really a secret
:order of ninja assassins, she's unlikely to have combat experience
:either...
She put up more of a fight against Saffron than Wash did.
:
:Stephen
--
Never give a loaded gun to a woman in labor.
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
Julian Treadwell
> "C.O.Jones" <ap...@solidbrass.com> writes:
> As for Inara, she may have learned how to use a sword and (from the
> film) a bow, but unless the Companions' Guild are really a secret
> order of ninja assassins, she's unlikely to have combat experience
> either...
She put up some sort of a fight against Saffron in OMR and against the
Operative in the BDM. Didn't fare well against either but I'd say she's
had some unarmed combat training. It would be surprising if the Guild
didn't train their members in at least basic self-defence, especially as
they are trained from a very early age.
Ragnar
Then the Guild needs to re-evaluate its training methods. Inara was
singularly ineffective in both of the encounters we've seen. If she had
to defend herself from a client I'm afraid she'd lose.
Julian Treadwell
In defence of our heroine can I point out that against Saffron she was
taken aback by Saffron's statement that Mal was dead, and Saffron had
also had Guild training.
Against the Operative Mal didn't do much better - that guy was *good*.
Julian Treadwell
> WASH: I mean, I'm the one she swore to love, honor and obey.
> MAL: Listen... She swore to *obey*?
> WASH: Well, no, not... But that's just my point! You she obeys!
> She obeys you! There's obeying going on right under my nose!
> In the exchange quoted above, Cheryl Cain's script accomplishes
> something special. It uses what could have been a throwaway joke
> about Zoe taking any wedding vows involving obeying, and uses it with
> the very specific purpose of bringing it back to a plot point. It's
> directed humor. That one example by itself might not be special,
> except that the same directed thing happens over and over throughout
> "War Stories." The anecdotes, the jokes, and the action are all as
> good as usual from _Firefly_, but they almost universally also each
> serve a clearly defined purpose.
Very true. The above exchange says bucketsful about Wash. I mean, who
else could say that with no self-consciousness?
> I don't quite understand how the crew just happens to swing by a
> planet that Niska's orbiting without noticing it. Shouldn't one know
> where such a big structure lives?
I agree with others who've said that Mal did know Niska was there, just
not that he'd be able to detect them.
> Niska himself, it should be mentioned, comes off approximately ten
> times better than in "The Train Job."
Better yes, but I thought he was OK in TTJ. Came across as sinister and
evil enough for me.
> Sub-plot aboard the ship has to do with Inara entertaining a
> counselor. I'm a bit more lukewarm here, plotwise,
Me too. I think the counsellor bit should either have been completely
cut or shown fully as originally intended (i.e. with the later scene
included). It's also a tad prurient for my taste, which other sexy
scenes in the series are not.
> So one thing I'd never really noticed before but became apparent on
> this viewing (joke. Ha ha) is that there's a lot of torture in "War
> Stories." It's bloody and brutal,
Yes, but alleviated by the humour of Mal's resistance to it. I didn't
find it gratuitous.
> That attack is a highlight of the series, with the whole crew (save
> Inara, whom I guess makes more valuable contributions through her
> connections with the respectable folk) working together on this
> suicide mission.
Yes it is. Shameless death-or-glory stuff, and wasn't it great!
> Sadly, I haven't been able to enjoy the "this is something the captain
> has to do for himself" bit as much since it was pointed out that
> there's no reason for Zoe to say that in the first place.
I missed that. To me it's just Zoe telling the others not to shoot as
Mal can and should win by himself. Why is there no need for that?
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Gripping, and a strong candidate for best-of-
> series.
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
Excellent yes, best-of-series candidate no. Brilliant but flawed.
Arbitrar Of Quality
try to remember what I said, but if any of you are seeing two posts
that're basically the same with slightly different wording, that's
why.
On Apr 28, 5:27 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1177771542.9...@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> > Generally, everyone's so
> > happy. This can't bode well. It's in the nature of Mutant Enemy
> > shows to torture its characters and see what they're made of, and make
> > every tidbit of reserved happiness at the end of the story feel
> > earned.
>
> Yeah, as observed elsewhere, Joss is Shan Yu - as a writer anyway. But
> there are a few nuances on the side that one can find in this episode too,
> starting with Simon's challenge of whether one is truly seeking the real
> man, or just enjoying the sadism. I've never seen anything from Joss on the
> subject, but I imagine that it's something he questions about himself as he
> produces these stories - unable to deny the thrill of the brutality, but
> still coming through with profoundly clarifying character moments. I think
> he does believe - as many do - that adversity makes the person.
>
> On the other hand, the episode also makes an effort to touch upon the limits
> of the concept. When we see Kaylee succumb to her fears and cower in the
> corner, that's a real window onto a part of her character. Yet it doesn't
> really say much about her at all. If you were to say we are shown her true
> self there, then that's saying you don't know Kaylee. It's a useful
> reminder of how blind such a test can be.
Well, adversity is part of what makes the person. So's the in-between
stuff. Joss's shows generally don't neglect either side of the
equation.
> But at least we hope that Kaylee hasn't lost herself in the process. The
> greater risk is that such a test will tear down the person, take away
> something precious. I don't believe we get a full blown example of that,
> but there is a hint of it with Wash - best seen when he ferociously declares
> to Zoe that they're coming back for Mal. There's a brief moment of sadness
> on Zoe's face then that I don't believe is explained by the prospect of the
> rescue - which she surely knew would be attempted anyway. Rather I think
> it's the sense that a great quality in Wash was lost when he turned hard.
> It's not something she can blame him for - she understands all too well.
> Indeed there's much to be proud of. But it still must of hurt to see his
> free spirit turn vengeful.
Nothing to add, but I thought that blob o' text was particularly
interesting.
> > Sub-plot aboard the ship has to do with Inara entertaining a
> > counselor. I'm a bit more lukewarm here, plotwise,
>
> It's not the plot that bothers me, but rather the dialogue between them that
> I think is stiff and unbelievable. Very much out of character with the
> series.
It does seem on the stiff side, but I'm able to accept it as the
nature of the scene. The client sets the tone of the conversation,
and this client is a somewhat nervous politico who isn't used to
letting her guard down in private moments.
> Maybe I'm just callous, but the torture doesn't stand out to me all that
> much. You mention Five By Five and Damage. It's true that they directly
> depict less, but the cruelty of it comes across much stronger IMO. The
> thing about the bulk of the depiction in this episode is that it's so
> comedic. The dialogue of course, but also the way they have Mal and Wash
> jiggle and shake their jowls. There's an underlying silliness to the
> physical elements that undercuts the cruelty of it all. So even though more
> is shown, the overall impact on me is much less than many, many torture
> scenes I've seen.
That particular segment (the so-called Funniest Torture Scene Ever) is
certainly played for silliness in pretty much all respects. But I'm
not seeing the same thing in the later scenes, particularly the parts
with Mal alone. The ear makes me cringe in a probably visible manner,
and I don't much "enjoy" watching him get killed either. I think the
idea is for us to have fun at first, and then have Niska just keep up
the stream of brutality until even our wacky crew can't make it funny.
>
> > That attack is a highlight of the series, with the whole crew (save
> > Inara, whom I guess makes more valuable contributions through her
> > connections with the respectable folk) working together on this
> > suicide mission. Here the story takes aim at some "stealth" targets,
> > to borrow a term that's come up in the review threads before. The
> > story of the moment is about Mal, Wash, and Zoe, but the kidnapping
> > has its effects on the others too.
>
> It goes to the broader theme. Almost everybody is tested under fire this
> episode.
Indeed.
> Ariel and War Stories are the only two episodes I'm sure I saw when aired.
> (At the time I had no idea the show had any connection to the maker of
> Buffy.) A hell of a pair to walk in on. But I also was getting Firefly
> confused with another space show on at the time - I don't remember what -
> and spent a fruitless period after trying to find it again - not even
> remembering what network I saw it on. Which, of course, isn't a surprise
> considering how close to the end the series was. It wasn't there to find.
Sounds fun. Spaceship shows really do blur together - I had some
confusion between _Firefly_ and nuBSG plots since I started watching
both of those shows at the same time, and they're not even all that
similar. Was this before or after you discovered BTVS?
> This is my second or third favorite episode of the series - flip flopping
> with OMR. Definitely an Excellent. We'll see if #1 still stands up a
> little ways ahead.
In my experience, OIS is one of those rare episodes that keeps getting
better after multiple repeat viewings.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> We also get the first scene of Jayne and Book
> spending time together, in the hilarious weight-lifting scene.
> If you'd asked me, I would have thought the Jayne-Book
> relationship was established before episode 10, but there
> you have it.
We saw them as part of the same card-playing group in "Shindig," but I
also always remember their one-on-one time being established earlier
than it actually is.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
wrote:
> > Sub-plot aboard the ship has to do with Inara entertaining a
> > counselor. I'm a bit more lukewarm here, plotwise,
>
> Me too. I think the counsellor bit should either have been completely
> cut or shown fully as originally intended (i.e. with the later scene
> included). It's also a tad prurient for my taste, which other sexy
> scenes in the series are not.
Ooh, another new vocabulary word learned from these discussions. But
if I'm understanding what it means, I don't understand what's wrong
with a sex scene being prurient.
> > Sadly, I haven't been able to enjoy the "this is something the captain
> > has to do for himself" bit as much since it was pointed out that
> > there's no reason for Zoe to say that in the first place.
>
> I missed that.
It was way the hell back while we were still talking about _Buffy_ or
_Angel_; someone brought it up as part of a discussion about
sacrificing logic for a joke or something.
> To me it's just Zoe telling the others not to shoot as
> Mal can and should win by himself. Why is there no need for that?
Because Zoe should know just as well as her old sergeant that in this
'verse, you do what you can to survive, without the action-movie
bullshit that the scene is skewering.
> > One-sentence summary: Gripping, and a strong candidate for best-of-
> > series.
>
> > AOQ rating: Excellent
>
> Excellent yes, best-of-series candidate no. Brilliant but flawed.
It was my favorite episode my first time through the series.
Therefore, it's a candidate. The arbiter has spoken.
-AOQ
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> _Angel_; someone brought it up as part of a discussion about
> sacrificing logic for a joke or something.
logic is a pretty flower
that smells terrible
Donny Macro
"Stephen Tempest" <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:q4bc331te5n1c6q3j...@4ax.com...
I have suspected the Companion Guild WAS a secret order, closer to Bene
Gesserit then Geisha they may even have employed assasination but perhaps
not quite ninja assasins... what was in that syringe anyway?
>
> Stephen
Apteryx
news:xq6dnWAafsZyDKnb...@rcn.net...
> "Apteryx" <apt...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in
> news:f11ta7$lht$1...@aioe.org:
>
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1177771542.9...@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>>> FIREFLY
>>> Season One, Episode 10: "War Stories"
>>>
>>> So anyway, that introduces the fruit (and wow, those apples
>>> look good - I guess when fresh fruit is so rare, only go for
>>> the best),
>>
>> Well no, if it's really rare, any will do. And the best is rare
>> even amongst the rare. Once again I grumble a little at the
>> oddity of primary produce being rare and expensive when there
>> seems to be no shortage of empty land on those outer worlds. If
>> apples are so expensive, why haven't more settlers grown apple
>> trees?
>>
>
> Because there are lots of places that aren't suitable for growing
> apple trees. The same goes for other forms of primary produce.
> Places that happen to be suitable for growing specific types of
> primary produce may have those types of primary produce. But the
> infrastructure needed to get that primary produce widely distributed
> simply doesn't exist out in the fringes.
But Serenity is that infrastructure (or part of it). If its just a matter of
distribution infrastructure, then for every place where apples are expensive
because they can't be grown, there must be other places where they are easy
to grow, and dirt cheap because the growers don't have a market for them. In
which case it would suit Serenity to go the apple-growing regions and do a
trade, as well as stocking up on cheap apples for themselves.
And although once there are good distribution networks, apples might be
grown commercially only in a few areas (the ideal regions to grow them, if
the growers have got it right), they can in fact be grown with a greater or
lesser degree of difficulty and a greater or lesser standard of quality over
a large proportion of the Earth's temperate zone (which I think corresponds
to every place on these other worlds that Serenity has visited). Until the
distribution networks drive out weaker competition, you'd expect most
settlers who could possibly grow them would keep a few trees, if they are as
expensive as suggested.
--
Apteryx
One Bit Shy
> All right, the Internets appear to have eaten my first response. I'll
> try to remember what I said, but if any of you are seeing two posts
> that're basically the same with slightly different wording, that's
> why.
This is all I see.
> Sounds fun. Spaceship shows really do blur together - I had some
> confusion between _Firefly_ and nuBSG plots since I started watching
> both of those shows at the same time, and they're not even all that
> similar. Was this before or after you discovered BTVS?
It wasn't BSG I was mixing it with... I still don't remember what.
This was a year after I found BtVS. At this point I was quite immersed in
BtVS - trying to watch the syndicated reruns at least 5 times a week -
sometimes as much as 7. Plus the new episodes as they came out. But I
wasn't in touch with the fan side of it yet - hadn't looked at anything
online. Hadn't bought any DVDs yet. I was completely unaware that Whedon
had a following or that he was doing other projects.
That seems so quaint now. Ha. ha.
OBS
Donny Macro
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in message
news:133f10v...@news.supernews.com...
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1177997579....@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>> All right, the Internets appear to have eaten my first response. I'll
>> try to remember what I said, but if any of you are seeing two posts
>> that're basically the same with slightly different wording, that's
>> why.
>
> This is all I see.
>
>
>> Sounds fun. Spaceship shows really do blur together - I had some
>> confusion between _Firefly_ and nuBSG plots since I started watching
>> both of those shows at the same time, and they're not even all that
>> similar. Was this before or after you discovered BTVS?
>
> It wasn't BSG I was mixing it with... I still don't remember what.
When I was first telling my brother about Firefly he was getting it confused
with something called "Starhunter" a show I have never seen, my brother said
it wasn't worth seeing though.
C.O.Jones
> But Serenity is that infrastructure (or part of it). If its just a matter of
> distribution infrastructure, then for every place where apples are expensive
> because they can't be grown, there must be other places where they are easy
> to grow, and dirt cheap because the growers don't have a market for them. In
> which case it would suit Serenity to go the apple-growing regions and do a
> trade, as well as stocking up on cheap apples for themselves.
How well do apples (or any fresh fruits) travel from planet to planet?
C.O.Jones
<julian.t...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
> > So one thing I'd never really noticed before but became apparent on
> > this viewing (joke. Ha ha) is that there's a lot of torture in "War
> > Stories." It's bloody and brutal,
>
> Yes, but alleviated by the humour of Mal's resistance to it. I didn't
> find it gratuitous.
It has also been the torture to do. I have seen a couple of tv torture
scenes since where the hero is tortured to death, then resusicated to
be tortured again. One was Jack Bauer on 24. (The other I don't recall
just now)
Don Sample
"C.O.Jones" <ap...@solidbrass.com> wrote:
> In article <f17ac5$hfa$1...@aioe.org>, Apteryx <apt...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>
> > But Serenity is that infrastructure (or part of it). If its just a matter
> > of
> > distribution infrastructure, then for every place where apples are
> > expensive
> > because they can't be grown, there must be other places where they are easy
> > to grow, and dirt cheap because the growers don't have a market for them.
> > In
> > which case it would suit Serenity to go the apple-growing regions and do a
> > trade, as well as stocking up on cheap apples for themselves.
>
> How well do apples (or any fresh fruits) travel from planet to planet?
About as well as South African apples or New Zealand kiwis travel to
North America.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
C.O.Jones
<donny...@gmail.attitude.com> wrote:
I thought it was pretty bad. It would be extreme sacrilege to confuse
it with Firefly. In my opinion.
Donny Macro
"C.O.Jones" <ap...@solidbrass.com> wrote in message
news:010520071400119084%ap...@solidbrass.com...
This was before he saw Firefly, he thought I was telling him how much I
liked that show instead of Firefly... after he saw it there was no
confusion... but I never saw the show I will take your (and my brother's)
word and not see it for myself.
Michael Ikeda
news:010520071155007879%ap...@solidbrass.com:
> In article <f17ac5$hfa$1...@aioe.org>, Apteryx <apt...@xtra.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
>> But Serenity is that infrastructure (or part of it). If its
>> just a matter of distribution infrastructure, then for every
>> place where apples are expensive because they can't be grown,
>> there must be other places where they are easy to grow, and
>> dirt cheap because the growers don't have a market for them. In
>> which case it would suit Serenity to go the apple-growing
>> regions and do a trade, as well as stocking up on cheap apples
>> for themselves.
>
> How well do apples (or any fresh fruits) travel from planet to
> planet?
>
The basic problem is likely a bit of a vicious cycle.
Most of the people in the fringes are very poor and can't afford
anything expensive.
Apples (and fresh fruit in general) are expensive which means that
very few people in the fringes can afford them.
Which means that there isn't any reason to transport large
quantities to fringe worlds, since they can't be sold in large
quantities there.
Which means that there isn't any reason to grow large quantities
out in the fringe worlds, at least not for sale in the fringes.
Which makes apples (and fresh fruit in general) rare items in the
fringes and therefore expensive.
Which means that most people in the fringes can't afford them.
Note that expensive for people out in the fringes does not
necessarily mean expensive for people in the Core Worlds. I
suspect that apples and other fresh fruit are readily available in
the Core Worlds at prices that are affordable for people in the
Core Worlds but still beyond what people in the fringes can afford.
Indeed that's likely another part of the explanation. Any fresh
fruit that IS grown for sale is either grown in the Core Worlds or
shipped there.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> quantities to fringe worlds, since they can't be sold in large
> quantities there.
actually most fruits are easy to transport
they are even transported by accident
a handful of seeds over a generation can become vast orchards or fields
assuming soil and weather can support them
Julian Treadwell
> On Apr 30, 11:28 pm, Julian Treadwell <julian.treadw...@jcu.edu.au>
> wrote:
> Ooh, another new vocabulary word learned from these discussions. But
> if I'm understanding what it means, I don't understand what's wrong
> with a sex scene being prurient.
Nothing really wrong with it I guess - just a matter of taste.
Actually, I perhaps didn't use the right word. I always thought it
meant 'sleazy', but checking a few online dictionaries I find
definitions like
pru·ri·ent (prŏŏr'ē-ənt)
adj.
1. Inordinately interested in matters of sex; lascivious.
2.
1. Characterized by an inordinate interest in sex.
2. Arousing or appealing to an inordinate interest in sex.
So please substitute 'prurient' with 'sleazy' in my post. :)
>>> Sadly, I haven't been able to enjoy the "this is something the captain
>>> has to do for himself" bit as much since it was pointed out that
>>> there's no reason for Zoe to say that in the first place.
>> I missed that.
>
> It was way the hell back while we were still talking about _Buffy_ or
> _Angel_; someone brought it up as part of a discussion about
> sacrificing logic for a joke or something.
I don't think I agree with that poster. Zoe and Mal are all about
honour and self-respect - and torture is about taking both of those away
from the victim. Zoe probably felt that Mal killing his torturer would
help him regain these. Makes sense to me.
>>> One-sentence summary: Gripping, and a strong candidate for best-of-
>>> series.
>>> AOQ rating: Excellent
>> Excellent yes, best-of-series candidate no. Brilliant but flawed.
>
> It was my favorite episode my first time through the series.
> Therefore, it's a candidate. The arbiter has spoken.
I was of course referring to *my* candidate for best, ymmv. Actually I
think my favourite on first viewing was OMR, which after repeated
viewings of the series I have dropped to about #6. I just didn't "get"
much of the brilliance of many of the eps first time through.
>
> -AOQ
>