let the fat lady sing!
Mean Joe Cool
in his grave.
C .Stanley
9.9999999999999 soon after the first 3 episodes of season 2 aired LOL
C. Stanley
"Mean Joe Cool" <m...@meanjoecool.com> wrote in message
news:01c15586$f0c1dce0$26001c0a@c0031084...
Suffer359
episode. IMVHO.
"Mean Joe Cool" <m...@meanjoecool.com> wrote in message
news:01c15586$f0c1dce0$26001c0a@c0031084...
Janus Thinker
>episode. IMVHO.
After the PILOT? How d'ya figure that? I realize that Roddenberry only left a
single script, but the entirety of v1.0 followed the pilot's theme and led the
arc forward. The script for the pilot was vastly changed from his original
script, as well...?
790Robothead
before now.
"Mean Joe Cool" <m...@meanjoecool.com> wrote in message
news:01c15586$f0c1dce0$26001c0a@c0031084...
Janus Thinker
>before now.
Wow. Two amazing assertions in one sentence. Are you seriously saying that a)
Gene Roddenberry would've screwed up his own show, given that he created the
basis for v1.0 AND b) that the show isn't a piece of crap now?
Jak Crow
> lol, Gene Roddenberry would have turned the show into a piece of crap long
> before now.
I agree with this post. Be careful though. All the people here that hate
the show will.....ummmm....act the same...
Jak Crow
And a sketch of some vague spaceship design became the basis of Andromeda.
Please remember that the state E:FC is in, while I and others think it's a
fairly good show, was being overseen by good 'ole bitchy Majael the entire
time, regardless of what she's said in recent interviews. She was involved
in the creation of the new characters and the "changes" that the season 1
diehards whine about endlessly, regardless of what she's said in recent
interviews (sounds like she's had some falling out with the other
producers actually). The biggest amusement is people think the show has
taken some kind of unknown path from season 1, when it was almost
completely open for anything to happen.
Suffer359
left a
> single script, but the entirety of v1.0 followed the pilot's theme and led
the
> arc forward.
So why does everyone say that Season 1 was the only good season and all
that? "The Arc" is still going in S5.
>The script for the pilot was vastly changed from his original
> script, as well...?
Proof? Ive never seen Gene's manuscripts. If you have a copy Id love to see
them.
Suffer359
its always been there even in season 1. Gene R.'s only influence was with
the pilot. Since then everything is new. People just dont like where they
are going with it now.
"Jak Crow" <new...@werewolves.org> wrote in message
news:DA9z7.1938$Le.5...@sea-read.news.verio.net...
Janus Thinker
>left a
>> single script, but the entirety of v1.0 followed the pilot's theme and led
>the
>> arc forward.
>
>So why does everyone say that Season 1 was the only good season and all
>that? "The Arc" is still going in S5.
"The Arc" is still going in v3.0, eh? Riiight...Taelon mythology was NEVER
mentioned after "The Joining," but for the existence of the word shaqaruva,
Taelon bio-experiments have gotten less and less as time has gone on, nothing
remotely as blunt as "core energy" was mentioned in v1.0, Sandoval's wife
appeared with no connection to continuity, the Resistance came, went, came, and
was dismantled with little fanfare, and the Taelons are GONE, replaced by a new
brand of alien not even conceived of in v1.0, Sandoval is the only remaining
character from v1.0, and he isn't remotely recognizable...and let's not even
get into the yearly revamp and the very existence of ::shudder:: Liam
Kincaid...
Where exactly do you see an arc?
>>The script for the pilot was vastly changed from his original
>> script, as well...?
>
>Proof? Ive never seen Gene's manuscripts. If you have a copy Id love to see
>them.
I don't happen to own a copy, but someone once posted the original manuscript
for the pilot (or possibly a summary, my memory is hazy) on the net, possibly
on philosophysphere...I do apologize for being unable to point to you to it,
but I didn't save it at the time...
In any case, it was quite different. Washington was a city under direct Taelon
control, and all the residents acted like robots, though the outside world was
unaware of any difference...CVI implantees were recognizable because of a
V-shaped tattoo that was put on their foreheads...Skrills weren't around, but
implants were instead issued some sort of ubiquitous rod-weapon, a la Gary
Seven's handy device in Star Trek's "Assignment: Earth"...the motivational
imperative was much more tenuous, as demonstrated by Sandoval breaking free and
killing Da'an in the end of the pilot...those are all the major differences I
can remember off the top of my head, but they are quite striking.
Janus Thinker
>its always been there even in season 1. Gene R.'s only influence was with
>the pilot. Since then everything is new. People just dont like where they
>are going with it now.
The arc ended with "The Joining," period. Since then, even the producers have
been uncertain as to whether or not there's an arc, even in their dealings with
the fans. There was a magnificent arc for 22 episodes, and following that we've
gotten 69 episodes of ad-lib crap. Where in v1.0 was there any hint of Liam
Kincaid's deus ex machina birth to come? Where was any idea that Doors could
possibly run for President? Where was any idea that the Taelons would allow a
clearly insane looney to lead them? Where was any hint of the concept of the
atavus (whichever concept of them you want to choose from v2.0 or v3.0...)?
Everything is new since the pilot, yes. What that means is that we got 21
episodes of inspired and beautiful writing...followed by some of the worst
television imaginable. It doesn't mean that it was consistent. If you want to
argue that it was consistent, find me an example of Taelon mythology after "The
Joining." Hell, compare how many times the Taelons spoke Taelon after "The
Joining" to before, for that matter. Season two and after was a totally
different show...and now season five is a totally different show from that.
Amazing, really. Incompetence on this scale hasn't been seen since Pickett's
charge.
Jak Crow
>>I agree. There is a 5-year Arc here. Tribune follows it loosly in places but
>>its always been there even in season 1. Gene R.'s only influence was with
>>the pilot. Since then everything is new. People just dont like where they
>>are going with it now.
>
> The arc ended with "The Joining," period. Since then, even the producers have
> been uncertain as to whether or not there's an arc, even in their dealings with
> the fans. There was a magnificent arc for 22 episodes, and following that we've
> gotten 69 episodes of ad-lib crap.
Of which you've apparently watched all of them.
> Where in v1.0 was there any hint of Liam Kincaid's deus ex machina birth
> to come?
I wasn't aware that was supposed to be phoned in ahead of time.
> Where was any idea that Doors could possibly run for President?
See above.
> Where was any idea that the Taelons would allow a clearly insane looney
> to lead them?
Season 1 actually. They were already building the tension between Zo'or
and Da'an.
> Where was any hint of the concept of the atavus (whichever concept of
> them you want to choose from v2.0 or v3.0...)?
Why do you think you're entitled to advanced knowledge of the show? The
plot points you're talking about didn't have to be "telegraphed" before
happening.
> Everything is new since the pilot, yes. What that means is that we got 21
> episodes of inspired and beautiful writing...followed by some of the worst
> television imaginable.
Followed by the melodramatic opinions of a few people on the internet.
Sorry, you're taking this way too personally and there are TONS of tv
shows that are and have been "worse". Not that EFC has been perfect, but
it certainly hasn't been bad.
> It doesn't mean that it was consistent. If you want to
> argue that it was consistent, find me an example of Taelon mythology after "The
> Joining." Hell, compare how many times the Taelons spoke Taelon after
> "The Joining" to before, for that matter.
Ma'el
> Season two and after was a totally different show.
No it wasn't.
> ..and now season five is a totally different show from that.
> Amazing, really. Incompetence on this scale hasn't been seen since Pickett's
> charge.
I love armchair producers. They think they know everything.
Suffer359
existence of the word shaqaruva
> Taelon bio-experiments have gotten less and less as time has gone on
Bio-engineering project to create warriors to fight the Jaridians? Combining
Taelon, Jaridian and Human DNA for healing? Second Chances fountain of youth
that turned people into violent Taelon supporters? Da'an's Taelon-Human
Hybrid Babys in Taelonville? Mneme? Volunteers with implants? Biosurrogates?
Mind Transfer? The Fields? One Taelon Avenue Mind control? Taelon cloning
experiments? Zo'or extracting emotions from humans? Babies born with CVIs or
CNIs? Blood Ties?
> Where exactly do you see an arc?
Your the one who said Season 1 "led the arc forward". I was responding to
you. I was talking about the pilot. Perhaps you should answer your own
question.
> In any case, it was quite different. Washington was a city under direct
Taelon
> control, and all the residents acted like robots, though the outside world
was
> unaware of any difference...CVI implantees were recognizable because of a
> V-shaped tattoo that was put on their foreheads...Skrills weren't around,
but
> implants were instead issued some sort of ubiquitous rod-weapon, a la Gary
> Seven's handy device in Star Trek's "Assignment: Earth"...the motivational
> imperative was much more tenuous, as demonstrated by Sandoval breaking
free and
> killing Da'an in the end of the pilot...those are all the major
differences I
> can remember off the top of my head, but they are quite striking.
I like the changes!!
Suffer359
So your saying we were never to know what Sandoval and Beckets baby was
going to be?
>There was a magnificent arc for 22 episodes, and following that we've
gotten 69 episodes of ad-lib crap.
The joining was a cliffhanger and was finished with first of its kind. Why
would they end an arc with a cliffhanger and never end it? Was Tribune
suppose to produce 22 episode and leave it at that?
>Where in v1.0 was there any hint of Liam Kincaid's deus ex machina birth to
come?
We new there was a baby coming.. We didnt know exactly what. That was the
cliffhanger along with Boone's "death".
>Where was any idea that Doors could possibly run for President?
Whats wrong with it? In season 1 he started a public attack on the Taelons.
This might be the next logical step.
>Where was any idea that the Taelons would allow a clearly insane looney to
lead them?
If your talking about Zo'or he was introduced early in season 1 and tried to
displace Da'an. It was clear he was nastier Da'an early on.
>Where was any hint of the concept of the atavus (whichever concept of them
you want to choose from v2.0 or v3.0...)?
Jaridians had an influence in season 1 and it went from there. You want the
whole series spelled out for you in advance? What would be the point in
watching at all if you knew all the answers?
> Everything is new since the pilot, yes. What that means is that we got 21
> episodes of inspired and beautiful writing...followed by some of the worst
> television imaginable.
Alot of the Jaridian, Zo'or "crap" you speak of was started or hinted at in
Season 1. If its inspired and beautiful writing then whats the problem?
>It doesn't mean that it was consistent. If you want to
> argue that it was consistent, find me an example of Taelon mythology after
"The
> Joining."
Wow. I dont know where to begin here. There alot. Where were you? If you
didnt watch "v2.0" or "v3.0" (whatever that means) then you cant talk. If
your talking about Taelon culture and history... Atauvs as ancestors?
Jaridians splitting form the Taelons in the past? Kimera as a
Proto-Ancestor. Bliss the Tealon drug found in (or around) Ma'el's lab at
Strand Hill? Taelon "renegades" who view the subjugation of inocent planets
as wrong? Finding Ma'el's ship? Taelons being unable to reproduce? Pad'Ar?
Tealon synod comprised of different Ministers (First, Second, War, etc). The
ancient Pesh'tal plague (or Zo'or's Chicken Pox as I call it). Taelons
conquring other races(skrills). Taelon version of the "Tortise and the Hare"
fable. Taelon hell (Ku'don). Ma'el's relic that showed Humans were the
"missing link" between Humans and Jaridians. Ma'els logs. Core Energy. Death
Stasis. etc, etc, etc, etc...... There are lots of smaller references to
culture and language but I cant think of any off hand.
>Hell, compare how many times the Taelons spoke Taelon after "The Joining"
to before, for that matter.
Zo'or swears in Taelon alot. There was an example of a meeting of synod
member as I recall that Sandoval interupted. They were all conversing in
Taelon. There are alot of examples but I would have to view the eps again.
David B.
He did a pretty good job of screwing up Star Trek The Next Generation
for it's first two seasons.
Janus Thinker
>existence of the word shaqaruva
>
>> Taelon bio-experiments have gotten less and less as time has gone on
>
>Bio-engineering project to create warriors to fight the Jaridians? Combining
>Taelon, Jaridian and Human DNA for healing? Second Chances fountain of youth
>that turned people into violent Taelon supporters? Da'an's Taelon-Human
>Hybrid Babys in Taelonville? Mneme? Volunteers with implants? Biosurrogates?
>Mind Transfer? The Fields? One Taelon Avenue Mind control? Taelon cloning
>experiments? Zo'or extracting emotions from humans? Babies born with CVIs or
>CNIs? Blood Ties?
Blarg. You are correct in pointing out all of these. I had mercifully blotted
out much the content of v2.0. Problem is that the focus changed: it became
"Taelon-experiment-of-the-week," rather than the bio-engineering experiments of
v1.0 which were geared towards creating hybrids and soldiers. Only a few of the
Taelon experiments afterwards connected to that.
>> Where exactly do you see an arc?
>
>Your the one who said Season 1 "led the arc forward". I was responding to
>you. I was talking about the pilot. Perhaps you should answer your own
>question.
You said, and I quote: "So why does everyone say that Season 1 was the only
good season and all that? "The Arc" is still going in S5."
I don't see any reference to the pilot. I said nothing about season 1 "leading
the arc forward"-season 1 was the only season that HAD a real arc, unless you
want to call the downward spiral of core energy an arc...
>> In any case, it was quite different. Washington was a city under direct
>Taelon
>> control, and all the residents acted like robots, though the outside world
>was
>> unaware of any difference...CVI implantees were recognizable because of a
>> V-shaped tattoo that was put on their foreheads...Skrills weren't around,
>but
>> implants were instead issued some sort of ubiquitous rod-weapon, a la Gary
>> Seven's handy device in Star Trek's "Assignment: Earth"...the motivational
>> imperative was much more tenuous, as demonstrated by Sandoval breaking
>free and
>> killing Da'an in the end of the pilot...those are all the major
>differences I
>> can remember off the top of my head, but they are quite striking.
>
>I like the changes!!
Oh, I agree. Many of the details were updated, and a bunch of silly ones were
removed, but it was a great core idea, I think.
Janus Thinker
>but
>>>its always been there even in season 1. Gene R.'s only influence was with
>>>the pilot. Since then everything is new. People just dont like where they
>>>are going with it now.
>>
>> The arc ended with "The Joining," period. Since then, even the producers
>have
>> been uncertain as to whether or not there's an arc, even in their dealings
>with
>> the fans. There was a magnificent arc for 22 episodes, and following that
>we've
>> gotten 69 episodes of ad-lib crap.
>
>Of which you've apparently watched all of them.
Nope, not all. Most, though. It's like watching a car crash.
>> Where in v1.0 was there any hint of Liam Kincaid's deus ex machina birth
>> to come?
>
>I wasn't aware that was supposed to be phoned in ahead of time.
Phoned in, no. But in an arc show, foreshadowing is rather key. When the clear
focus of the show is one character with depth, and he's killed and replaced
with an action figure with interchangable powers, one is a bit...confused.
>> Where was any idea that Doors could possibly run for President?
>
>See above.
And again, phoning in is one thing. Foreshadowing is another. When someone
fakes their own depth and then comes forward as a leader of an underground
resistance, one does not immediately leap to the conclusion that he's
considering a political career. It's like de Gaulle running for President
before the Nazis were defeated.
>> Where was any idea that the Taelons would allow a clearly insane looney
>> to lead them?
>
>Season 1 actually. They were already building the tension between Zo'or
>and Da'an.
And again, you're missing the concept of "matters of degree." Tension between
members of the Synod is one thing. Zo'or having contempt for Da'an is one
thing. A member of a race that abhors money fawning over piles of gold bars and
raving about how someone's going to steal them while being respected as the
leader of that race....
>> Where was any hint of the concept of the atavus (whichever concept of
>> them you want to choose from v2.0 or v3.0...)?
>
>Why do you think you're entitled to advanced knowledge of the show? The
>plot points you're talking about didn't have to be "telegraphed" before
>happening.
I think I was "entitled," if you want to use that word, to some clues, since it
was an arc show in v1.0. The direction of the show changed totally. It's like
Babylon 5 going from leading towards war for two years and then the Shadows
turning out to be the Teletubbies. Made no sense at all.
>> Everything is new since the pilot, yes. What that means is that we got 21
>> episodes of inspired and beautiful writing...followed by some of the worst
>> television imaginable.
>
>Followed by the melodramatic opinions of a few people on the internet.
>Sorry, you're taking this way too personally and there are TONS of tv
>shows that are and have been "worse". Not that EFC has been perfect, but
>it certainly hasn't been bad.
Of course there are worse things. There are ALWAYS worse things. Doesn't make
EFC v2.0 or 3.0 any less crap...
>> It doesn't mean that it was consistent. If you want to
>> argue that it was consistent, find me an example of Taelon mythology after
>"The
>> Joining." Hell, compare how many times the Taelons spoke Taelon after
>> "The Joining" to before, for that matter.
>
>Ma'el
I was referring to the Taelon MYTHOLOGY, the creation myth of the twins,
Shaqaruva and Umrathuma. Ma'el, btw, also changed radically. A scientist who
grew to love the people he was studying enough to destroy his notes became a
Taelon who decided to kill his own people should they come to Earth (during a
time when Taelons were unable to kill each other due to the strength of the
Commonality, mind you).
>> Season two and after was a totally different show.
>
>No it wasn't.
I'vestated up what the fundamental changes were...your argument?
>> ..and now season five is a totally different show from that.
>> Amazing, really. Incompetence on this scale hasn't been seen since
>Pickett's
>> charge.
>
>I love armchair producers. They think they know everything.
Not a producer, even in my dreams. Just someone who likes good tv, and misses
what EFC used to be...
Janus Thinker
>
>So your saying we were never to know what Sandoval and Beckets baby was
>going to be?
No. Where in that statement did you derive that? I'm saying that the
intelligently-written arc of v1.0 and the statements in "The Joining" about a
war of genetic assimilation wouldn't point one towards a 3-hour
conception-to-adult-body superhero being the resul of that pregnancy.
>>There was a magnificent arc for 22 episodes, and following that we've
>gotten 69 episodes of ad-lib crap.
>
>The joining was a cliffhanger and was finished with first of its kind. Why
>would they end an arc with a cliffhanger and never end it? Was Tribune
>suppose to produce 22 episode and leave it at that?
No, they were "supposed" to continue the show that ran for 22 episodes, rather
than start another show and call it "Earth: Final Conflict."
>>Where in v1.0 was there any hint of Liam Kincaid's deus ex machina birth to
>come?
>
>We new there was a baby coming.. We didnt know exactly what. That was the
>cliffhanger along with Boone's "death".
We didn't know exactly what, yes, but there was no clue that v1.0's science
would be thrown out in place of v2.0's magic...
>>Where was any idea that Doors could possibly run for President?
>
>Whats wrong with it? In season 1 he started a public attack on the Taelons.
>This might be the next logical step.
As I said in another post, it's like de Gaulle running for President while the
Nazis are still in power. It's ludicrous.
>>Where was any idea that the Taelons would allow a clearly insane looney to
>lead them?
>
>If your talking about Zo'or he was introduced early in season 1 and tried to
>displace Da'an. It was clear he was nastier Da'an early on.
Of course he was nasty. That doesn't indicate a) that he was dangerously
delusional, and that b) the Taelons would allow an obviously delusional person
to lead them.
>>Where was any hint of the concept of the atavus (whichever concept of them
>you want to choose from v2.0 or v3.0...)?
>
>Jaridians had an influence in season 1 and it went from there. You want the
>whole series spelled out for you in advance? What would be the point in
>watching at all if you knew all the answers?
The Jaridians did not exist in v1.0. Yes, the alien probes pointed to a second
race, but there was a hell of a lot more depth pointed to than a simple war.
I definitely would not like the whole serious spelled out for in advance, but I
would like some good writing, i.e. foreshadowing. I'd like to be able to look
back over the past four years of the show and say "ohhhhhh, so THAT's what that
was pointing to." Instead, I look at the show and say "what the hell is this?
What about this previous statement that's totally refuted, or this event which
now apparently didn't occur?" Watch Babylon 5 for an example of a good arc
show.
>> Everything is new since the pilot, yes. What that means is that we got 21
>> episodes of inspired and beautiful writing...followed by some of the worst
>> television imaginable.
>
>Alot of the Jaridian, Zo'or "crap" you speak of was started or hinted at in
>Season 1. If its inspired and beautiful writing then whats the problem?
Whatever the alien race was intended to be in v1.0 wasn't a race that was
simply a bunch of klingons at war with the Taelons. There was a lot more depth
implied. Further, Zo'or was nasty. I could even buy that he was intended to be
Da'an's bitter child. But how do you derive dangerously delusional from nasty?
>>It doesn't mean that it was consistent. If you want to
>> argue that it was consistent, find me an example of Taelon mythology after
>"The
>> Joining."
>
>Wow. I dont know where to begin here. There alot. Where were you? If you
>didnt watch "v2.0" or "v3.0" (whatever that means) then you cant talk. If
>your talking about Taelon culture and history... Atauvs as ancestors?
>Jaridians splitting form the Taelons in the past? Kimera as a
>Proto-Ancestor. Bliss the Tealon drug found in (or around) Ma'el's lab at
>Strand Hill? Taelon "renegades" who view the subjugation of inocent planets
>as wrong? Finding Ma'el's ship? Taelons being unable to reproduce? Pad'Ar?
>Tealon synod comprised of different Ministers (First, Second, War, etc). The
>ancient Pesh'tal plague (or Zo'or's Chicken Pox as I call it). Taelons
>conquring other races(skrills). Taelon version of the "Tortise and the Hare"
>fable. Taelon hell (Ku'don). Ma'el's relic that showed Humans were the
>"missing link" between Humans and Jaridians. Ma'els logs. Core Energy. Death
>Stasis. etc, etc, etc, etc...... There are lots of smaller references to
>culture and language but I cant think of any off hand.
There was a lot of new "Taelon culture" and history introduced, but the Taelon
MYTHOLOGY (that you don't know what I'm talking about makes clear the point
that it was dropped entirely), the creation myth of the twins, Umrathuma and
Shaqaruva fighting and Shaqaruva being thrown into the void, that was talked
about all through v1.0 was dropped the instant Boone was killed. It was the
core of the Taelons' motivation in v1.0, the key to understanding them, and
then it was never mentioned again, but for the word "shaqaruva" being used.
>>Hell, compare how many times the Taelons spoke Taelon after "The Joining"
>to before, for that matter.
>
>Zo'or swears in Taelon alot. There was an example of a meeting of synod
>member as I recall that Sandoval interupted. They were all conversing in
>Taelon. There are alot of examples but I would have to view the eps again.
I think there may have been ONE synod meeting in Taelon, and yes, Zo'or swears.
In v1.0, however, there was Taelon in virtually every meeting. There was an
episode in which the Taelon language was a big focus, wherein Da'an taught
Boone Taelon. The depth of the Taelon language was a key part of understanding
the depth of the Taelon species, and then it was...background.
Btw, what I mean by v1.0 is season 1. v2.0 is seasons 2-4, a totally different
show, and v3.0 is season 5, another totally different show.
Suffer359
> fakes their own depth and then comes forward as a leader of an underground
> resistance, one does not immediately leap to the conclusion that he's
> considering a political career. It's like de Gaulle running for President
> before the Nazis were defeated.
Playing the character as he was for 5 years would have been awfully boring
for Mr. Hemblen.
> And again, you're missing the concept of "matters of degree." Tension
between
> members of the Synod is one thing. Zo'or having contempt for Da'an is one
> thing. A member of a race that abhors money fawning over piles of gold
bars and
> raving about how someone's going to steal them while being respected as
the
> leader of that race....
Wasn't Motherload voted as one of the top episodes?
> I was referring to the Taelon MYTHOLOGY, the creation myth of the twins,
> Shaqaruva and Umrathuma.
Noone knows for sure what that painting means. I have my own theorys. Some
theorys include Kincade and some more recent ones include the Atavus and
Boones return. Your assuming that it has nothing to do with subsequent
seasons. Theres no proof of this either way.
>Ma'el, btw, also changed radically. A scientist who
> grew to love the people he was studying enough to destroy his notes became
a
> Taelon who decided to kill his own people should they come to Earth
(during a
> time when Taelons were unable to kill each other due to the strength of
the
> Commonality, mind you).
It was never mentioned that he loved Humans. If he did mabye he killed the
Taelons for that reason. You dont know for sure.
> Not a producer, even in my dreams. Just someone who likes good tv, and
misses
> what EFC used to be...
Most of us agree that some of the changes in season 2-4 were bad. But your
saying that the whole of the series after season 1 was crap and season 1 is
the greatest TV ever. Theres no room in your view for someone who might have
enjoyed some of the episodes in 2-4. Your just Nitpicking small details
about the stories that have nothing to do with E: FCs problems and knocking
people with an opinion. Does it make the series bad if Zo'or gets a little
croupted with power? Or if Doors runs for president? No. Some of us aren't
as picky as you.
Suffer359
> intelligently-written arc of v1.0 and the statements in "The Joining"
about a
> war of genetic assimilation wouldn't point one towards a 3-hour
> conception-to-adult-body superhero being the resul of that pregnancy.
rather
> than start another show and call it "Earth: Final Conflict."
Im not saying Kincade was a good idea but thats what Gertz had in mind when
he wrote "The Joining" and probably even as early as "FLOB". Are you
including "the Joining" and "FLOB" as part of the superior writing of V1.0?
Gertz wrote those episodes and "The First of its Kind". He had a direction
he was heading in very early in season 1 but it didnt become clear until
later(and probably shouldnt have seen the light of day). Gertz didnt write
the entire series however so couldnt some of the post Season 1 episodes be
good?
> As I said in another post, it's like de Gaulle running for President while
the
> Nazis are still in power. It's ludicrous.
> Of course he was nasty. That doesn't indicate a) that he was dangerously
> delusional, and that b) the Taelons would allow an obviously delusional
person
> to lead them.
Thats your opinion and your entiled to it. It doesnt make all season 2-4 eps
bad.
> The Jaridians did not exist in v1.0.
>Yes, the alien probes pointed to a second race, but there was a hell of a
lot more depth pointed to than a simple war.
> Whatever the alien race was intended to be in v1.0 wasn't a race that was
> simply a bunch of klingons at war with the Taelons. There was a lot more
depth
> implied.
Please elaberate on that. What depth?
>Watch Babylon 5 for an example of a good arc show.
Boone = Sinclair
Kincade = Sheridan
The relationship is very similar.
>Further, Zo'or was nasty. I could even buy that he was intended to be
> Da'an's bitter child. But how do you derive dangerously delusional from
nasty?
Im not making the distinction its just not that important when speaking
about the entirety of season 2-4 being good or bad.
> There was a lot of new "Taelon culture" and history introduced, but the
Taelon
> MYTHOLOGY (that you don't know what I'm talking about makes clear the
point
> that it was dropped entirely), the creation myth of the twins, Umrathuma
and
> Shaqaruva fighting and Shaqaruva being thrown into the void, that was
talked
> about all through v1.0 was dropped the instant Boone was killed. It was
the
> core of the Taelons' motivation in v1.0, the key to understanding them,
and
> then it was never mentioned again, but for the word "shaqaruva" being
used.
Boone was an Avatar and it was hinted that Avatars return from death as I
remember. You dont know that it was dropped or not. Your just guessing.
Noone knows what it means exactly. A couple of years ago people were content
to believe that Ha'gel was the Sleeper.
> I think there may have been ONE synod meeting in Taelon, and yes, Zo'or
swears.
> In v1.0, however, there was Taelon in virtually every meeting. There was
an
> episode in which the Taelon language was a big focus, wherein Da'an taught
> Boone Taelon. The depth of the Taelon language was a key part of
understanding
> the depth of the Taelon species, and then it was...background.
U might be right about that but your still using this as a basis for calling
all Season 2-4 eps crap.
Suffer359
blotted
> out much the content of v2.0. Problem is that the focus changed: it became
> "Taelon-experiment-of-the-week," rather than the bio-engineering
experiments of
> v1.0 which were geared towards creating hybrids and soldiers. Only a few
of the
> Taelon experiments afterwards connected to that.
There was a whole conversation between Da'an and Zo'or about this. As I
recall Da'an was pointing out that they would never be able to genetically
engeneer Humans into weapons. Many of Zo'ors experiments after that were
geared toward understanding and winning over Humans to the taelon cause or
even joining with Humans which Zo'or had a problem with but Da'an persued.
> You said, and I quote: "So why does everyone say that Season 1 was the
only
> good season and all that? "The Arc" is still going in S5."
> I don't see any reference to the pilot.
>I said nothing about season 1 "leading
> the arc forward"-
I said: Earth: Final Conflict ceased to be a Roddenberry show after the
Pilot episode. IMVHO.
You werent happy with my opinion...
You said: After the PILOT? How d'ya figure that? I realize that Roddenberry
only left a
single script, but the entirety of v1.0 followed the pilot's theme and led
the
arc forward. The script for the pilot was vastly changed from his original
script, as well...?
Then this whole ugly thread grew into an enormous arguement about how the
entire series after Season 1 was crap.
Janus Thinker
>> fakes their own depth and then comes forward as a leader of an underground
>> resistance, one does not immediately leap to the conclusion that he's
>> considering a political career. It's like de Gaulle running for President
>> before the Nazis were defeated.
>
>Playing the character as he was for 5 years would have been awfully boring
>for Mr. Hemblen.
Did I say he should be a static character? No. Why do you keep reading things
into my statements that aren't there? I don't want to see static character. I
wanted realistic change, like Da'an's view of humanity slowly changing
throughout v1.0. Sweeping, baseless change, like Resistance leader to
Presidential candidate in a few weeks, was and is idiotic.
>> And again, you're missing the concept of "matters of degree." Tension
>between
>> members of the Synod is one thing. Zo'or having contempt for Da'an is one
>> thing. A member of a race that abhors money fawning over piles of gold
>bars and
>> raving about how someone's going to steal them while being respected as
>the
>> leader of that race....
>
>Wasn't Motherload voted as one of the top episodes?
In the rigged way in which EFC.com asked for our "favorite episodes," yes. They
arranged the poll so that they would get results from every season, knowing
full well that if they didn't do that, they'd get eight to ten v1.0 episodes in
that list.
>> I was referring to the Taelon MYTHOLOGY, the creation myth of the twins,
>> Shaqaruva and Umrathuma.
>
>Noone knows for sure what that painting means. I have my own theorys. Some
>theorys include Kincade and some more recent ones include the Atavus and
>Boones return. Your assuming that it has nothing to do with subsequent
>seasons. Theres no proof of this either way.
Of course no one knows for certain what it means. It hasn't been mentioned
since "The Joining," remember? Fan speculation, yours and mind included,
doesn't count as anything going on with it in the show...
>>Ma'el, btw, also changed radically. A scientist who
>> grew to love the people he was studying enough to destroy his notes became
>a
>> Taelon who decided to kill his own people should they come to Earth
>(during a
>> time when Taelons were unable to kill each other due to the strength of
>the
>> Commonality, mind you).
>
>It was never mentioned that he loved Humans. If he did mabye he killed the
>Taelons for that reason. You dont know for sure.
??? Have you even seen "Secret of Strandhill? Ma'el cared enough for humanity
(granted, "loved" may be too strong a word, but the point is clear) to refuse
to perform his mission and destroy his own notes rather than let the Taelons
use them for their own purposes.
Further, he didn't kill any Taelons, though in v2.0 it was revealed that he
intended to if they came to visit, and you didn't say anything in response to
my clear point there-that the show stated around the same time that the
Commonality prevented Taelons from killing each other.
>> Not a producer, even in my dreams. Just someone who likes good tv, and
>misses
>> what EFC used to be...
>
>Most of us agree that some of the changes in season 2-4 were bad. But your
>saying that the whole of the series after season 1 was crap and season 1 is
>the greatest TV ever. Theres no room in your view for someone who might have
>enjoyed some of the episodes in 2-4. Your just Nitpicking small details
>about the stories that have nothing to do with E: FCs problems and knocking
>people with an opinion. Does it make the series bad if Zo'or gets a little
>croupted with power? Or if Doors runs for president? No. Some of us aren't
>as picky as you.
Hey, I liked some details of some episodes. They had some cool ideas in several
episodes, from "Thicker Than Blood"'s introduction of the Amoralist and
interesting technology to the wonderfully convoluted conspiracy of "Crossfire,"
though its motivation was idiotic. The problem is that despite some cool ideas
in the background, the plots were driven by stupid writing and motivations that
were pretty much inscrutable. Can you tell me, even now that his life is over,
why it was that Liam felt such a driving need to help humanity and resist the
Taelons? I doubt it. If his story's over and good writing is involved, the fans
should know more than they did at the beginning about the story, but nothing
changed. He was, but for minor changes, a static character-and in the interview
quoted in another post in the past few days, Leeshock was pretty damn bored
playing the same bloody character after three years.
In any case, it DID make the series bad (though it was bad by that point
anyway) that Doors, for no apparent reason, was granted amnesty for his crimes
and allowed to run for President (not to mention that the tremendously
pro-Taelon American electorate was suddenly ready to elect an anti-Taelon
terrorist President), and that Zo'or became clearly insane and was still
allowed to lead. Is there no consciousness of degree here in your analysis?
Gorbachev became a little corrupted with power. Clinton became a little
corrupted with Power. What Zo'or was doing on the show was on the level of
Caligula-who was killed by his own people rather than allowed to stay in power.
In the bizarre logic of EFC, however, in a culture that is totally about the
community, an individual is allowed to pursue his individual wants while
harming the group and retaining seemingly supreme power. How is that not bad
writing?
Janus Thinker
>> intelligently-written arc of v1.0 and the statements in "The Joining"
>about a
>> war of genetic assimilation wouldn't point one towards a 3-hour
>> conception-to-adult-body superhero being the resul of that pregnancy.
>> No, they were "supposed" to continue the show that ran for 22 episodes,
>rather
>> than start another show and call it "Earth: Final Conflict."
>
>Im not saying Kincade was a good idea but thats what Gertz had in mind when
>he wrote "The Joining" and probably even as early as "FLOB". Are you
>including "the Joining" and "FLOB" as part of the superior writing of V1.0?
>Gertz wrote those episodes and "The First of its Kind". He had a direction
>he was heading in very early in season 1 but it didnt become clear until
>later(and probably shouldnt have seen the light of day). Gertz didnt write
>the entire series however so couldnt some of the post Season 1 episodes be
>good?
I realize that Gertz wrote those v1.0 episodes, and I rather like them. I find
it hard to believe that the thoughtful writing demonstrated in the portrayal of
the Amish and the depth of Taelon culture in "The Joining" is the same as the
idiocy demonstrated in "First of Its Kind." Perhaps he was working with a
series bible that he threw out after "The Joining," or editors/cowriters
contributed more than we think? I dunno. It's bizarre, I'll give you that.
Remember, however, the scene where Boone is killed was added long after "The
Joining" was filmed, as a last-minute addition, so I somehow doubt that Gertz
really intended that whole thing from the beginning...
>> As I said in another post, it's like de Gaulle running for President while
>the
>> Nazis are still in power. It's ludicrous.
>
>> Of course he was nasty. That doesn't indicate a) that he was dangerously
>> delusional, and that b) the Taelons would allow an obviously delusional
>person
>> to lead them.
>
>Thats your opinion and your entiled to it. It doesnt make all season 2-4 eps
>bad.
No, it doesn't, but it certainly contributed...
>> The Jaridians did not exist in v1.0.
>>Yes, the alien probes pointed to a second race, but there was a hell of a
>lot more depth pointed to than a simple war.
>
>> Whatever the alien race was intended to be in v1.0 wasn't a race that was
>> simply a bunch of klingons at war with the Taelons. There was a lot more
>depth
>> implied.
>
>Please elaberate on that. What depth?
The Taelon creation myth of the twins that was brought up again and again,
implying a twin race, or perhaps another faction of Taelons, Da'an discussing
with the Synod, saying that they were facing something they didn't think humans
could understand (despite contempt like Zo'or's, I think they wouldn't think
that we couldn't understand a simple war...), the way in which the probe was
portrayed-a more complicated thing than a simple weapon of war...
>>Watch Babylon 5 for an example of a good arc show.
>
>Boone = Sinclair
>Kincade = Sheridan
>
>The relationship is very similar.
Sinclair was sent off to learn to become the head of the Rangers, not
spontaneously killed, and Sheridan was transferred, a normal aspect of military
life, rather than growing from a blastocyst to an adult in a day and having no
apparent motivation behind his dramatic actions.
>>Further, Zo'or was nasty. I could even buy that he was intended to be
>> Da'an's bitter child. But how do you derive dangerously delusional from
>nasty?
>
>Im not making the distinction its just not that important when speaking
>about the entirety of season 2-4 being good or bad.
Contemptous to Caligula is not an important distinction? Wow. Impressive. I
trust you consider disagreement on tactics (Resurrection) on the same level as
an assassination attempt (First of Its Kind and others), as well?
It was not the whole reason behind seasons 2-4 sucking, but it contributed a
lot.
Ummm....yes, I am...? Where's the disagreement? The sudden drop in the level of
depth in characterization of individuals and cultures between "The Joining" and
"First of Its Kind" was the single greatest fault of seasons 2-4. The virtual
disappearance of Taelon language and culture was just a symptom of that. So was
Von Flores' saying that the scenes he was scripted for were painful to act and
Lisa Howard saying that the writers clearly had no idea what they were doing
with the characters.
Janus Thinker
>blotted
>> out much the content of v2.0. Problem is that the focus changed: it became
>> "Taelon-experiment-of-the-week," rather than the bio-engineering
>experiments of
>> v1.0 which were geared towards creating hybrids and soldiers. Only a few
>of the
>> Taelon experiments afterwards connected to that.
>
>There was a whole conversation between Da'an and Zo'or about this. As I
>recall Da'an was pointing out that they would never be able to genetically
>engeneer Humans into weapons. Many of Zo'ors experiments after that were
>geared toward understanding and winning over Humans to the taelon cause or
>even joining with Humans which Zo'or had a problem with but Da'an persued.
The problem there was that they no longer talking about one of the basic points
of v1.0-tranforming Taelons into soldiers, rather than humans into weapons.
>> You said, and I quote: "So why does everyone say that Season 1 was the
>only
>> good season and all that? "The Arc" is still going in S5."
>> I don't see any reference to the pilot.
>>I said nothing about season 1 "leading
>> the arc forward"-
>
>I said: Earth: Final Conflict ceased to be a Roddenberry show after the
>Pilot episode. IMVHO.
>
>You werent happy with my opinion...
>
>You said: After the PILOT? How d'ya figure that? I realize that Roddenberry
>only left a
>single script, but the entirety of v1.0 followed the pilot's theme and led
>the
>arc forward. The script for the pilot was vastly changed from his original
>script, as well...?
>
>Then this whole ugly thread grew into an enormous arguement about how the
>entire series after Season 1 was crap.
Hm. My apologies, then. I appear to have confused your words with someone
else's. Pesky side effects of aol not including names with quotations.
I wasn't angry with your original statement, though. Just was asking what your
justification was.
William Boone
news:20011022205545...@mb-mq.aol.com...
> >> In any case, it was quite different. Washington was a city under direct
> >Taelon
> >> control, and all the residents acted like robots, though the outside
world
> >was
> >> unaware of any difference...CVI implantees were recognizable because of
a
> >> V-shaped tattoo that was put on their foreheads...Skrills weren't
around,
> >but
> >> implants were instead issued some sort of ubiquitous rod-weapon, a la
Gary
> >> Seven's handy device in Star Trek's "Assignment: Earth"...the
motivational
> >> imperative was much more tenuous, as demonstrated by Sandoval breaking
> >free and
> >> killing Da'an in the end of the pilot...those are all the major
> >differences I
> >> can remember off the top of my head, but they are quite striking.
> >
> >I like the changes!!
>
> Oh, I agree. Many of the details were updated, and a bunch of silly ones
were
> removed, but it was a great core idea, I think.
What? You mean... you didn't like Agent Filbert and Bayliss, with their
V-tattoo implants and their zators (pen devices)?? I mean... how could you
not like the Resistance leader: "Dom", and stewardess Lili, who lived with
him on his house boat? Hehe...
And also, the Taelon fortress... which was actually supposed to be like a
house/building, with alien forcefield technology around it, to protect it...
or how 'bout them slap-in-the-face plot developments?? I mean... in the
original script, we found out all about the Taelon's in the first episode...
including their labour camps (or a similiar setup), which they manned
with... humans. Ah... Gene had some good basic concepts... that's why I
love his work... but some of his writing (mostly dialogue, or stuff dealing
with subtlety) left much to be desired...
William
Jak Crow
>>> The arc ended with "The Joining," period.
>>
>>So your saying we were never to know what Sandoval and Beckets baby was
>>going to be?
>
> No. Where in that statement did you derive that? I'm saying that the
> intelligently-written arc of v1.0 and the statements in "The Joining" about a
> war of genetic assimilation wouldn't point one towards a 3-hour
> conception-to-adult-body superhero being the resul of that pregnancy.
And guess what? The producers even agreed with your "view" that it was a
mistake to have Liam be a "superhero" and toned that down. I personally
thought it was interesting him being a hybrid with extra abilities like
enhanced senses and the shakariva (which was just a built-in skrill
blaster IMO). It's not like those made him invinciable. I thought it was a
mistake to get rid of them completely.
>>>There was a magnificent arc for 22 episodes, and following that we've
>>gotten 69 episodes of ad-lib crap.
>>
>>The joining was a cliffhanger and was finished with first of its kind. Why
>>would they end an arc with a cliffhanger and never end it? Was Tribune
>>suppose to produce 22 episode and leave it at that?
>
> No, they were "supposed" to continue the show that ran for 22 episodes, rather
> than start another show and call it "Earth: Final Conflict."
It wasn't "another show". Get over it.
>>>Where in v1.0 was there any hint of Liam Kincaid's deus ex machina birth to
>>come?
>>
>>We new there was a baby coming.. We didnt know exactly what. That was the
>>cliffhanger along with Boone's "death".
>
> We didn't know exactly what, yes, but there was no clue that v1.0's science
> would be thrown out in place of v2.0's magic...
Opinion
>>>Where was any idea that Doors could possibly run for President?
>>
>>Whats wrong with it? In season 1 he started a public attack on the Taelons.
>>This might be the next logical step.
>
> As I said in another post, it's like de Gaulle running for President while the
> Nazis are still in power. It's ludicrous.
Except there had already been several incidents exposing the Taelons as
not so nice and the president being a patsy. Note that Doors' "terrorist
attacks" were against the Taelons, and in fact, few if any were actual
attacks.
>>>Where was any idea that the Taelons would allow a clearly insane looney to
>>lead them?
>>
>>If your talking about Zo'or he was introduced early in season 1 and tried to
>>displace Da'an. It was clear he was nastier Da'an early on.
>
> Of course he was nasty. That doesn't indicate a) that he was dangerously
> delusional, and that b) the Taelons would allow an obviously delusional person
> to lead them.
I'm sorry. At that point, they could do what? Not a whole hell of a lot...
>>>Where was any hint of the concept of the atavus (whichever concept of them
>>you want to choose from v2.0 or v3.0...)?
>>
>>Jaridians had an influence in season 1 and it went from there. You want the
>>whole series spelled out for you in advance? What would be the point in
>>watching at all if you knew all the answers?
>
> The Jaridians did not exist in v1.0. Yes, the alien probes pointed to a second
> race, but there was a hell of a lot more depth pointed to than a simple war.
A simple war with a race that was the other half of the species they used
to be. Oh yeah, pretty simple.
> I definitely would not like the whole serious spelled out for in advance, but I
> would like some good writing, i.e. foreshadowing.
The plot points you keep bringing up required little if any "foreshadowing",
though in fact, the point of Zo'or becoming increasingly
unstable is tracked significantly.
> I'd like to be able to look back over the past four years of the show
> and say "ohhhhhh, so THAT's what that was pointing to." Instead, I look
> at the show and say "what the hell is this?
Though you probably like Star Trek....
> What about this previous statement that's totally refuted, or this event which
> now apparently didn't occur?" Watch Babylon 5 for an example of a good arc
> show.
Hahahahaha! You used B5 and "good" in the same sentence. Stop! Hahahaha
>>> Everything is new since the pilot, yes. What that means is that we got 21
>>> episodes of inspired and beautiful writing...followed by some of the worst
>>> television imaginable.
>>
>>Alot of the Jaridian, Zo'or "crap" you speak of was started or hinted at in
>>Season 1. If its inspired and beautiful writing then whats the problem?
>
> Whatever the alien race was intended to be in v1.0 wasn't a race that was
> simply a bunch of klingons at war with the Taelons. There was a lot more depth
> implied.
No there wasn't. There was very little implied other than the Taelons'
survival and the probe.
> Further, Zo'or was nasty. I could even buy that he was intended to be
> Da'an's bitter child. But how do you derive dangerously delusional from nasty?
As things got more desperate (oh, and you forgot those little experiments
Zo'or did on himself).
I think he knows exactly what you're talking about, but you're talking out
the other side of your mouth now.
>>>Hell, compare how many times the Taelons spoke Taelon after "The Joining"
>>to before, for that matter.
>>
>>Zo'or swears in Taelon alot. There was an example of a meeting of synod
>>member as I recall that Sandoval interupted. They were all conversing in
>>Taelon. There are alot of examples but I would have to view the eps again.
>
> I think there may have been ONE synod meeting in Taelon, and yes, Zo'or swears.
> In v1.0, however, there was Taelon in virtually every meeting. There was an
> episode in which the Taelon language was a big focus, wherein Da'an taught
> Boone Taelon. The depth of the Taelon language was a key part of understanding
> the depth of the Taelon species, and then it was...background.
>
> Btw, what I mean by v1.0 is season 1. v2.0 is seasons 2-4, a totally different
> show, and v3.0 is season 5, another totally different show.
How elitist of you...
Jak Crow
And DS9 too...
Daniel Rasmussen
William Boone wrote:
That script, which was floating around on eBay, wasn't actually written by
Gene. Based on his other shows, I would suspect that Gene only provided a basic
series setup for whoever wrote that script (I'm sorry, but I can't recall the
name), and then he probably would have edited it extensively in future drafts,
had there been any.
William Boone
It's so 70's... it's almost like E: FC meets Battlestar Galactica...
William
--
________________________________
"Life's an absurdity, like a polar bear
running around an igloo, hollaring radar."
--------------------
- Ford Plasko
"Daniel Rasmussen" <ras...@rconnect.com> wrote in message
news:3BD60DC7...@rconnect.com...
Daniel Rasmussen
William Boone wrote:
> Oh, but c'mon... it's still fun to laugh at!!!
> It's so 70's... it's almost like E: FC meets Battlestar Galactica...
>
> William
>
Yeah. It reminds me of Arthur C. Clarke's Childhood's End (which is brilliant)
combined with some cheesy 70's show like Battlestar Galactica or maybe even the
80's V. But for some reason, despite their silliness, I have found Battlestar
Galactica and V to be enjoyable. Somehow shows that have no real intellectual
charm from the beginning are a lot easier to watch than those show which lose
intellectual value.
Daniel Rasmussen
Jak Crow wrote:
I'm sorry...I might just be too tired to see sarcasm, but if Gene was resposible
for DS9, then shouldn't he be equally responsible for EFC and Andromeda?
JohnGorno
In article <mf7B7.6546$R%6.88...@news-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca>, "Suffer359"
<Suff...@SoftHome.net> writes:
>Most of us agree that some of the changes in season 2-4 were bad. But your
>saying that the whole of the series after season 1 was crap and season 1 is
>the greatest TV ever. Theres no room in your view for someone who might have
>enjoyed some of the episodes in 2-4. Your just Nitpicking small details
>about the stories that have nothing to do with E: FCs problems and knocking
>people with an opinion. Does it make the series bad if Zo'or gets a little
>croupted with power? Or if Doors runs for president? No. Some of us aren't
>as picky as you.
I share the general complaint of JanusTinker you're responding to. He's only
nitpicking because you asked for a list of nits! And the whole is the sum of
its parts: there were a lot of nuances that made the first season neat, and
some big things too.
As you say, it's possible that a five-year arc is running as planned: "First
of His Kind" does logically follow "The Joining;" either Uber Liam or the
Space Vampires could fit the bill of the Sleeper. That wouldn't mean they
don't suck, only that the sucking was planned in advance!
The real complaint of first season purists is not a list of nits but the loss
of subtlety. Even during the first season, this happened to a degree:
introducing Zo'or as the "bad Taelon" forced the previously ambiguous and
dangerous Da'an into the role of "good Taelon." Liam is a vastly less subtle
character than Boone: Da'an knows his secret, and he doesn't have to pretend
that he has a CVI or any loyalty to Zo'or or Sandoval. Liam doesn't have to
learn Taelon; he knows it already, and the Mothership starts speaking English
anyway! *Everybody* can pilot a shuttle...
It's not that the Taelon language vanished altogether, but that it and the
other fascinating, mysterious elements of Taelon culture, Taelon other-ness
like the translucent form and blush were reduced to rarities. Zo'or, never a
subtle character, becomes a crass, petty villain. Sandoval starts as a tragic
figure, stripped of his free will to become a servant of the Taelons more
ruthless than they, then turns into a mustache-twirling bad-guy. The Taelons
are implied to be incapable of killing, then wind up having battle fleets.
Their enemy starts out as mysterious and insidious as they, then turn out to be
scenery-chewing Klingon-wanna-be's.
If Zo'or's gold-fever had been tied into the arc, connected to his infusion of
Boone DNA, or to the Taelons de-evolution, then it would have been better, but
it was just an example of his ordinary villainy. They deliberately avoided
tying things to the arc.
Then there's the simple fact that the writing and acting have gone down the
toilet. The first season cast were talented veterans playing strong personas,
the current crop just don't compare (granted, I don't think anyone could do
anything with the present dialogue).
>> I was referring to the Taelon MYTHOLOGY, the creation myth of the twins,
>> Shaqaruva and Umrathuma.
>
>Noone knows for sure what that painting means. I have my own theorys. Some
>theorys include Kincade and some more recent ones include the Atavus and
>Boones return. Your assuming that it has nothing to do with subsequent
>seasons. Theres no proof of this either way.
It's not that we wanted things to be telegraphed in advance, but rather, that
after the fact they would seem harmonious, even inevitable. Sure, we can come
up with various interpretations that would connect to the Taelon myths, and the
series may yet announce one - part of the problem is that there *are* so many
possibilities: too many for any one to really satisfy. There hasn't been a
building of momentum, of clues falling into place. There won't be an "A-hah!"
moment, but at best an anti-climax, "Oh, the Atavus, not Boone, not Liam, not
the Kimera, are the Sleeper."
JF
Cathputer
<new...@werewolves.org> writes:
>And guess what? The producers even agreed with your "view" that it was a
>mistake to have Liam be a "superhero" and toned that down. I personally
>thought it was interesting him being a hybrid with extra abilities like
>enhanced senses and the shakariva (which was just a built-in skrill
>blaster IMO). It's not like those made him invinciable. I thought it was a
>mistake to get rid of them completely.
They didn't tone it down. He went from using his powers for every little
thing, such as putting a hole in a wall, to losing them totally. I remember the
posts here at the time. It was the way the powers were being used that the
complaints were about. Many posters didn't want Liam to lose his powers, just
not have him use them in ridiculous ways. It came to a point that you know how
the episode was going to end, Liam would use his powers in the last few minutes
and save the day.
>It wasn't "another show". Get over it.
Very informative remark. How did the show stay true to the style of season
one? What was the same other than Taelons were in it?
>>>>Where was any idea that the Taelons would allow a clearly insane looney to
>>>lead them?
>>>
>>>If your talking about Zo'or he was introduced early in season 1 and tried
>to
>>>displace Da'an. It was clear he was nastier Da'an early on.
>>
>> Of course he was nasty. That doesn't indicate a) that he was dangerously
>> delusional, and that b) the Taelons would allow an obviously delusional
>person
>> to lead them.
>
>I'm sorry. At that point, they could do what? Not a whole hell of a lot...
They could have picked Da'an or any other Taelon as their leader.
>>>>Where was any hint of the concept of the atavus (whichever concept of them
>>>you want to choose from v2.0 or v3.0...)?
>>>
>>>Jaridians had an influence in season 1 and it went from there. You want the
>>>whole series spelled out for you in advance? What would be the point in
>>>watching at all if you knew all the answers?
>>
>> The Jaridians did not exist in v1.0. Yes, the alien probes pointed to a
>second
>> race, but there was a hell of a lot more depth pointed to than a simple
>war.
>
>A simple war with a race that was the other half of the species they used
>to be. Oh yeah, pretty simple.
It was simple when it was revealed. They were trying to kill each other, and
that was it. There weren't enough Taelons, so they wanted the people on earth
to fight for them, as they did with other species before.
>There was very little implied other than the Taelons'
>survival and the probe.
Things were implied in every episode. Towards the end of season one, they
started to become clear, as when they implanted the woman who used the portals.
Did you watch season one?
>How elitist of you...
The poster is not elistist because the poster broke down EFC into style and
quality.
Jak Crow
> In article <EclB7.2380$Le.6...@sea-read.news.verio.net>, Jak Crow
> <new...@werewolves.org> writes:
>
>>And guess what? The producers even agreed with your "view" that it was a
>>mistake to have Liam be a "superhero" and toned that down. I personally
>>thought it was interesting him being a hybrid with extra abilities like
>>enhanced senses and the shakariva (which was just a built-in skrill
>>blaster IMO). It's not like those made him invinciable. I thought it was a
>>mistake to get rid of them completely.
>
> They didn't tone it down. He went from using his powers for every little
> thing, such as putting a hole in a wall, to losing them totally. I remember the
> posts here at the time. It was the way the powers were being used that the
> complaints were about. Many posters didn't want Liam to lose his powers, just
> not have him use them in ridiculous ways. It came to a point that you know how
> the episode was going to end, Liam would use his powers in the last few minutes
> and save the day.
If you had been paying attention, he rarely used his powers. Please don't
exaggerate the matter to make it look like there was a complete 180.
>>It wasn't "another show". Get over it.
>
> Very informative remark.
Thank you. I know how to deal with "feelings" as opposed to "facts".
> How did the show stay true to the style of season one? What was the same
> other than Taelons were in it?
Been covered before. Again, get over it.
>>A simple war with a race that was the other half of the species they used
>>to be. Oh yeah, pretty simple.
>
> It was simple when it was revealed. They were trying to kill each other, and
> that was it. There weren't enough Taelons, so they wanted the people on earth
> to fight for them, as they did with other species before.
Doesn't seem that simple.
>>There was very little implied other than the Taelons'
>>survival and the probe.
>
> Things were implied in every episode. Towards the end of season one, they
> started to become clear, as when they implanted the woman who used the portals.
> Did you watch season one?
Yes, sure did. They didn't establish enough to justify people screaming
"this is a different show!".
>>How elitist of you...
>
> The poster is not elistist because the poster broke down EFC into style and
> quality.
In purely subjective terms of course. Oh, btw:
http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue233/screen3.html
A rather positive review of ep 1 of season 5.
Jak Crow
He was there at the start of DS9, which at that time DS could have stood
for Dull Series.
Cathputer
<new...@werewolves.org> writes:
>> It was simple when it was revealed. They were trying to kill each other,
>and
>> that was it. There weren't enough Taelons, so they wanted the people on
>earth
>> to fight for them, as they did with other species before.
>
>Doesn't seem that simple.
That explains why you like the episodes after season one.
Janus Thinker
>
>http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue233/screen3.html
>
>A rather positive review of ep 1 of season 5.
Umm...Crow, did you read this review?
"For a series with a revolving door of cast members, uneven story lines and
questionable heroes, Earth: Final Conflict has always remained interesting.
While the writing has been inconsistent, the casting, the production and the
special effects have continually come through and made the series watchable.
And when it's good, this series can be very good." Can you say, "mixed
messages?"
Followed by: "Heitmeyer throws herself into the role of action hero, and it
appears she can kick alien butt better than Liam or Boone ever did." As if
"kicking alien butt" was ever Boone's motivation...
A great comparison of the various seasons and characters, as well: "Liam saved
the Taelons countless times and was directly responsible for creating the
Atavus. Now in "Unearthed," Renée is responsible for accidentally unleashing
the Atavus on the Earth. So Liam created them and Renée let them go. That's a
bad thing. How can we look at Liam and Renée as heroes when they are actually
just trying to clean up their own mess? William Boone (Kevin Kilner) isn't
included in this group, mainly because things were even murkier in the first
season when he was around. He certainly had opportunities to at least knock off
Sandoval, which would have been a no-brainer and saved countless human lives."
So this reviewer acknowledges that Liam and Renee are idiots, and yet thinks
that season one was "murky," (read: complex) and that the obvious thing to do
was the best thing to do...riiiight....
Followed by a GREAT conclusion: "In this final season, let's hope the series'
producers do it right and prove to us that what we went through had a purpose
other than just surviving the good guy's mistakes. Humans have to get something
out of all this trouble or we'll discover that Earth: Final Conflict's heroes
aren't so heroic after all. How the series will do without the duplicitous and
superior Taelons is a question mark. Many fans are not happy about the loss of
their favorite characters. However, Earth: Final Conflict will benefit from a
battle that is more black and white in nature, especially if this final journey
is worth the trip."
So this great review of "Unearthed" is basically acknowledging that all the
problems we see on the show are the fault of the "heroes," that the show has
killed its main characters over the over without any clear point, has been
plagued with inconsistent writing, and now thinks that EFC will be better with
an ever MORE black and white conflict. Wonderful. If this is the best review
you can find, Crow, then it just serves to showcase how bad this show has
become...
Cathputer
<new...@werewolves.org> writes:
>http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue233/screen3.html
>
>A rather positive review of ep 1 of season 5.
Actually, it's a rather negative review. The writer points out the illogic of
the characters of Liam and Renee. I guess you didn't write it.
Cathputer
(Janus Thinker) writes:
>Umm...Crow, did you read this review?
I read it the same way you did, not too positive.
Cath
Jak Crow
Doesn't explain why your kind has been bitching for 4 years about
something that apparently "died" after the first 22 episodes. Oh, and so
much for not being elitist, eh?
Jak Crow
>>In purely subjective terms of course. Oh, btw:
>>
>>http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue233/screen3.html
>>
>>A rather positive review of ep 1 of season 5.
>
> Umm...Crow, did you read this review?
>
> "For a series with a revolving door of cast members, uneven story lines and
> questionable heroes, Earth: Final Conflict has always remained interesting.
> While the writing has been inconsistent, the casting, the production and the
> special effects have continually come through and made the series watchable.
> And when it's good, this series can be very good." Can you say, "mixed
> messages?"
You missed:
The season premiere, "Unearthed," is an exciting, top-notch episode that
drives the series into a new direction and effectively showcases
Heitmeyer.
Funny, I never said it was a "great" review, I said it was a positive
review. I've also never said the show was perfect, but anyways, you'll
continue to look for fault in the show (after season 1 one, cause season 1
is oh so perfect) and since your type are trying so hard, you will see
what you want to see.
Jak Crow
Of course you did. You're predictable.
TJ
>
>He was there at the start of DS9, which at that time DS could have stood
>for Dull Series.
>
umm no he wasnt, DS9 started in 93, Gene bit the dust during ST6 which was 91.
TJ
Jak Crow
Sorry, my timeline was way off. :) I could have sworn he was involved with
the start of DS9