To heck in a handbasket and Toronto Life fanfic chatter....
Elyse
Gee, the newsgroup has been …. Er, busy.
There were a lot of good points made, and some behavior that well, sheesh...
but well, it's a newsgroup, I guess (but it's definitely more well behaved than
rec.arts.tv...).
……….
Snowee <sno...@my-deja.com> wrote in article
<8efahi$7mg$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> Ok, so all I'm saying is I don't think you can make assumptions about
> the people, about the fanfic, or about the fandom in any way, shape or
> form. If that's true, how can you say gen writers must not archive as
> much as slashers? How can you know that or assume that?
Lil said:
"I was responding to Elyse's complaint that the hexwood archive contains a
majority of slash fanfic. "
It wasn't a complaint, simply a statement what I know of how people post
fanfic. If I'd complained, I would have said "those *#!#?! reporters keep
saying slash is all that exists! Why can't they ever post about gen fic!" The
press is always going to look for the sensational, and slash is the sensation
in fanfic. And the Canuck press seems to have this fascination with it.
…………
Then Anagi of TO LIFE fame <G> said:
"I've had the archive for under a year now, and I've noticed a distinct lack of
Gen fiction - I was always curious why and to be honest, the thought that
people might not put their stories there because of the slash aspect never
crossed my mind. I think I must be delusional, because it's a pretty valid
point. However, after a quick count, there are 2,651 total stories on the
archive - 1,389 are Gen and 1,262 are slash."
Out of curiosity, when I refer to 'gen' fiction, I refer to G to PG-13 (maybe a
little rated R) but I don't include the NC-17 (a kind I kept tripping over a
lot at one point). I can see it has been a while since I"ve visited as the mix
has changed.
And, of course, Due South is done, kaput, at least until Alliance figures it's
viable enough to resurrect as a movie of the week <G>. It's a natural
progression of fandom for fans to move onto other fandoms, interests, etc. Some
fans were DS only,and when it went, they just went back to whatever they were
doing.
……..
Snowee mentioned:
" I've noticed this theory bouncing around that gen writers must not submit."
I must admit, I've never heard of that myself. The DS archive, to my knowledge,
will accept any kind of DS fanfic. Fanwriters post where they want to post. I
do know fans who were uncomfortable posting their gen fiction in the archive at
one point in time due to the heavy proliferation of slash stories. And like I
said, from that sprung up gen archives and private archives.
Now that many fans are more HTML-savvy, they are doing their own sites, making
their own little mark on the world, and if look at ONELIST, aiee, there are SO
many now it's impossible to track them.
………….
re why do fans write fanfic… I don't see it as a disservice to the original
writers / creators of the series. Most fans tend to write because they LOVE the
show so much they just can't wait for Showtime, CBS< etc., to churn out another
episode. They want to write their own. They want to fill in that scene they
thought should have been there instead of an ad for toothpaste. And I know a
number of people who started this way with Star Trek, Star Wars, etc., who have
gone on to be published authors of their own fiction, so fanfic ain't all that
bad. <G>
I don't mind if someone wants to rewrite an episode because they didn't' like
it. IT's been going on with fanfic for ages. I think "Call of the Wild" may
have been the most re-written ending in DS fandom though, as there were many
fans who were dissatisfied with the ending. I thought about it but when I read
some really good ones, I was satisfied and I can always rationalize those last
few minutes as Fraser comes out of the shower and Dief is waiting for him <G>
…………
re criticism…. All authors like criticism, but *constructive* criticism. To
write an author, fanfic or otherwise, just to say "your work sucks" isn't going
to help the author and makes you look like an ass to boot. Feedback is an
elusive creature that all writers crave, but they'd rather have them tell you
constructively how their work affected or repelled you. Sometimes someone will
read a piece of fanfic online and write the author and say "I loved your story"
and leave it at that. There's nothing wrong with that. We have no idea if the
author is sneaking in that post while figuring balance sheets at work, but just
wanted to say something. Granted, it's nicer to get a long and detailed post of
what they enjoyed (i.e., 'I particularly liked the way you ran the thread of
Dief's Timbit addiction throughout the entire story and did resolve it at the
end with him going to a 12-step donut program…."), etc.
……………..
re the Hollywood vs Indie thread., Mary said:
"This is a very timely (albeit slightly OT) topic for me. Just last night I
attended a screening of an obscure indie movie ("Coven"), the making of which
was the subject of another indie movie, the documentary "American Movie." The
filmmaker was here and there was a Q&A session after the film. He couldn't
stress enough how important it is (to him) to make *his* films. Since "Coven"
he has received many offers to do "bigger and better" things, but he has turned
down all offers of money or to pitch ideas to studios or whatever. He *needs*
to make HIS films HIS way. That is what interests me in a film -- experiencing
someone's personal vision. Occasionally, we do get something special out of
Hollywood. There are directors/writers who have earned the clout to make
*their* films. John Sayles and Peter Weir are two of my faves."
Oh yup, true! I have watched some films on IFC that I've never heard of, don't
know the actors, and they'd NEVER make it mainstream, but they're thoroughly
enjoyable. Hollywood, by decree, churns out formula stuff that will sell (as
$$$ is the name of the game). Once a director/actor gets big enough, and gets
the clout, they can do stuff they want their way.
The same can be said of authors. We little fanfic authors have no studio execs
threatening us with no paycheckand living on the streets if we don't do our job
correctly. Many scripts are written by a committee and meddled to death by
network nitwit execs. You've got to a tough hide to write in Hollywood as you
do sacrifice originality until you hit it big or win Powerball so you can fund
your own project. IT can be downright vicious, and unfortunately, women tend to
get the boot when they hit 40 (ack). Even TV tie-in books are strictly
regimented. Heck, look at the ST novelizatins. Some of them might as well come
out of the deep frier at Mickey D's as they're so similar.
Fanfic writers can write whatever the heck they darned well please, and a lot
of it is good and a lot of it is drek (and the same can be said of
mass-produced market paperbacks as well) and it's simply a matter of taste.
Didn't this all start with discussion of the Toronto Life article?
Elyse
JRD...@aol.comNOSPAM
List Manager-Due South Informer (all news list)
William & Elyse's DUE SOUTH Page
News~FAQ~Cast Info~Episode Guides & more!
http://home.hiwaay.net/~warydbom/duesouth.htm
*Please remove NOSPAM from addy to respond*
Grabb
> Out of curiosity, when I refer to 'gen' fiction, I refer to G to
> PG-13 (maybe a little rated R) but I don't include the NC-17
> (a kind I kept tripping over a lot at one point). I can see it
> has been a while since I"ve visited as the mix has changed.
I took Gen to mean anything that wasn't slash, regardless
of the rating. You made me curious, so I went back and
pilfered through the archive. There have been a few additions
since my first post.
Gen (all stories which do not have a slash or m/m warning): 1347
Gen stories as above, rated G - PG: 1122
Gen stories as above rated NC-17: 92
(those rated R work out to be the remainder)
Slash (any story with a slash or m/m warning): 1333
Slash stories as above, rated G - R: 757
Slash stories rated NC-17: 577
So, yes, you were right, you probably are tripping over a lot
of NC-17 slash stories.
> And, of course, Due South is done, kaput, at least until
> Alliance figures it's viable enough to resurrect as a movie
> of the week <G>. It's a natural progression of fandom for
> fans to move onto other fandoms, interests, etc. Some
> fans were DS only,and when it went, they just went back
> to whatever they were doing.
I've noticed a drop when TNT dropped it from it's daily
run to Sat early afternoon only, then again, when it was
moved to 8:00 am. Out of sight, out of mind.
> > ....
> Snowee mentioned:
> " I've noticed this theory bouncing around that gen writers must not
submit."
>
> I must admit, I've never heard of that myself. The DS archive,
> to my knowledge, will accept any kind of DS fanfic.
Anything that's not illegal. But, I think it's also a case of advertising.
Because several of the fiction lists are not slash friendly, I'm
not on them, and therefore not hawking the archive. Vice versa,
I don't get see a lot of posts on the slash lists telling people
about the gen stuff.
> I don't mind if someone wants to rewrite an episode because
> they didn't' like it. IT's been going on with fanfic for ages. I
> think "Call of the Wild" may have been the most re-written
> ending in DS fandom though, as there were many fans who
> were dissatisfied with the ending. I thought about it but when
> I read some really good ones, I was satisfied and I can always
> rationalize those last few minutes as Fraser comes out of the
> shower and Dief is waiting for him <G>
LOL! Well, let's face it, every single bit of fanfic out there
is a rewrite of the show, since it didn't happen. I've always
been amused by the rationale that there can be no slash
because it wasn't canon. By that logic, he's been in no
other relationship other than Victoria, he certainly never
married Frannie or Meg, he never did anything other than
stand outside the consulate and help solve a few cases.
How boring!
> Didn't this all start with discussion of the Toronto Life article?
Aren't you sorry for bringing it up!? :) I enjoyed the article
very much but I'm probably biased. Anyone else here that
was quoted but didn't care for the article?
Anagi
MARYEKELCH
>LOL! Well, let's face it, every single bit of fanfic out there
>is a rewrite of the show, since it didn't happen.
I wouldn't go that far. I think there's a significant distinction between
writing an "episode" that was not part of the show and rewriting an episode
that was. While I can understand why some people want to imagine an episode
differently because they didn't like it, I won't read any "fix-its" (a misnomer
which really rubs me the wrong way) because I think the series was perfect.
COTW (for example) wasn't supposed to be my vision (of the ending of the
series); it was supposed to be the view of the dS writers/producers. How can I
"fix" that? So, I guess I prefer the phrase "alternate reality" to "fix-it."
I wonder how hurt the dS writers would be to hear that some viewers believe,
and have expressed, that their stories suck (to the point of rewriting them!)?
Can we fanfic writers say "Don't give me any negative feedback" and then turn
around and rewrite what dS presented to us?
MaryK
Lillian
<20000430215247...@ng-fc1.aol.com>...
> I wonder how hurt the dS writers would be to hear that some viewers
believe,
> and have expressed, that their stories suck (to the point of rewriting
them!)?
> Can we fanfic writers say "Don't give me any negative feedback" and then
turn
> around and rewrite what dS presented to us?
That has always been my question to those who prefer to pretend that there
is no Season 3/4. It's not just the writers, but the producers,
directors, actors, etc.
There's always alot of tap-dancing, if there is a reply, but nothing that
doesn't negate the fact that they're basically denying the year's work of
hard work of all these people.
Elyse
>I took Gen to mean anything that wasn't slash, regardless
>of the rating. You made me curious, so I went back and
>pilfered through the archive. There have been a few additions
>since my first post.
Danke for the 'stats'. It's always interesting to see numbers (guess it's cuz I
work with all day long...)
>I've noticed a drop when TNT dropped it from it's daily
>run to Sat early afternoon only, then again, when it was
>moved to 8:00 am. Out of sight, out of mind.
at 8:00 a.m, definitely. I won't wake up early on a weekend if I can sleep in
till 9, that's for sure <G> Wish they'd stick in at like noon instead, where it
has a better chance of being watched, but... at least it's still on the sked.
>> Didn't this all start with discussion of the Toronto Life article?
>
>Aren't you sorry for bringing it up!? :) I enjoyed the article
>very much but I'm probably biased. Anyone else here that
>was quoted but didn't care for the article?
I noticed a lot of quotes, but from fans who probably said "you can quote me
but not my name (cuz my family doesn't know I went to a con or something <G>)".
I was interviewed but don't see any quotes although do see quotes from the tape
of PG I did supply <G>.
Grabb
> I wouldn't go that far. I think there's a significant
> distinction between writing an "episode" that was not
> part of the show and rewriting an episode that was.
Two totally different things, I agree. The point I was trying to make
was simply that we don't see every single moment of their lives, and
therefore, any written stories are just that - stories.
> While I can understand why some people want to imagine an
> episode differently because they didn't like it, I won't read any
> "fix-its" (a misnomer which really rubs me the wrong way)
> because I think the series was perfect.
> COTW (for example) wasn't supposed to be my vision
> (of the ending of the series); it was supposed to be the
> view of the dS writers/producers. How can I "fix" that?
> So, I guess I prefer the phrase "alternate reality" to "fix-it."
I'm not fond of the term 'fix-its' myself - COTW is not the vision
that I would have imagined for the series, but you're right,
it's not our view. However, it is well within a writers grasp
to imagine what might have happened after they sledded
off into the sunset. It's all a matter of perspective I suppose.
I'd be interested to know what you consider a fix-it. I
find the term too broad sometimes.
**slash thoughts alert**
I don't consider RayK coming back to Chicago eventually
and Fraser staying in Canada to be a fix-it - no romance,
no harm/no foul. On some days I don't find RayV meeting
up with Fraser in the future & getting it on a fix-it. However,
if I believe wholeheartedly that RayK and Fraser were
involved and they did sled off into the sunset together and
intend to be snowbunnies for the remainder of their lives,
then both of the above scenarios are fix-its. Does that make sense?
I enjoy stories that take a canon moment and interpret
in a way that makes me rethink it. But, I can't deny
other people the right to do whatever they see fit with a
storyline, be it rewriting an episode to having Fraser
marry <shudder> Frannie. Regardless of what TPTB
intended, once it's out there, it's fair game. Doesn't
PG say something that extent?
> I wonder how hurt the dS writers would be to hear that
> some viewers believe, and have expressed, that their
> stories suck (to the point of rewriting them!)?
Personally, I don't expect everyone to like my stories -
I don't write for anyone but myself. Don't like
my story? Fine. Wanna tell me why you think it
sucks, that's okay too. I'd just have to ask why
you think it's important for me to know and what
you expect to gain from telling me. If you want
me to quit writing because you can't stand to
read another story - don't read it.
Lillian wrote:
> That has always been my question to those who prefer
> to pretend that there is no Season 3/4. It's not just the
> writers, but the producers, directors, actors, etc.
> There's always alot of tap-dancing, if there is a reply,
> but nothing that doesn't negate the fact that they're
> basically denying the year's work of hard work of all these people.
Just to be difficult <g>
Does it matter? Is there something
that says that just because they filmed 4 seasons that everyone
has to like all 4 seasons? Are the dS people somehow
'entitled' to our respect, praise, and adulation simply because
they filmed it? I don't think so. I do enjoy all four seasons
for different reasons, but I don't like every single episode
and I don't think that I have too.
Anagi
MARYEKELCH
>I'm not fond of the term 'fix-its' myself - COTW is not the vision
>that I would have imagined for the series, but you're right,
>it's not our view. However, it is well within a writers grasp
>to imagine what might have happened after they sledded
>off into the sunset.
Oh, I definitely agree. I have done so. But that's not my understanding of a
"fix-it." We're not told what happens after they start on their journey, so
there's nothing to fix. I would imagine it was left open so that we could each
imagine what happens next.
>I'd be interested to know what you consider a fix-it. I
>find the term too broad sometimes.
Well, to me, the term implies that the original work was found unsatisfactory
and had to be changed. I would consider a "fix-it" story to be one in which
events that happened in the series are changed or deleted.
>**slash thoughts alert**
>I don't consider RayK coming back to Chicago eventually
>and Fraser staying in Canada to be a fix-it - no romance,
>no harm/no foul. On some days I don't find RayV meeting
>up with Fraser in the future & getting it on a fix-it.
No, neither do I. These are examples of someone imagining beyond what was
shown on the series. That's what fanfic is, right? A "fix-it" fanfic,
however, wouldn't 'imagine beyond', but would 'rewrite' a canon dS story to
change facts/events.
> However,
>if I believe wholeheartedly that RayK and Fraser were
>involved and they did sled off into the sunset together and
>intend to be snowbunnies for the remainder of their lives,
>then both of the above scenarios are fix-its. Does that make sense?
Well......maybe I could consider the part about Fraser and RayK having been
involved romantically during the run of the series to be a "fix-it", since that
wasn't specifically shown on dS. Although, I still think that's more like
"imagining beyond" than rewriting. If it was stated on the show that they
weren't romantically involved and someone wrote a story in which they were,
then that I would see as a "fix-it" because it changes something that was
specifically stated.
I don't think any stories which take place post-COTW can be "fix-its" since
there was no show after COTW to fix. I think rewriting COTW to omit Fraser's
humorous tag would be a fix-it, but writing a story which interprets everyone's
"endings" as stated by Fraser would NOT be a fix-it, but "imagining beyond".
That's how I have always interpreted the term "fix-it", as well as "alternate
universe."
>I enjoy stories that take a canon moment and interpret
>in a way that makes me rethink it.
Me too, as long as the characterizations ring true.
> But, I can't deny
>other people the right to do whatever they see fit with a
>storyline, be it rewriting an episode to having Fraser
>marry <shudder> Frannie.
Agreed. People can write whatever they want.
> Regardless of what TPTB
>intended, once it's out there, it's fair game. Doesn't
>PG say something that extent?
Oh, sure. I think all art is meant to be interpreted. Some interpretations
may be close to the artist's intent; some may be totally different.
I wrote:
> I wonder how hurt the dS writers would be to hear that
>> some viewers believe, and have expressed, that their
>> stories suck (to the point of rewriting them!)?
Anagi responded:
>Personally, I don't expect everyone to like my stories -
>I don't write for anyone but myself.
Exactly. An artist has to create out of need for self-fulfillment, not to
please others. I wasn't insinuating that the dS folks would necessarily be
hurt, but was trying to make a point. That point wasn't that we all have to
like everything dS presented to us, but to question why there seems to be
acceptance of criticizing certain episodes (quite rigorously sometimes), but
not of people expressing disinterest (or even polite criticism) of some fanfic.
It doesn't make sense to me, and seems rather unfair and unrealistic.
> Don't like
>my story? Fine. Wanna tell me why you think it
>sucks, that's okay too. I'd just have to ask why
>you think it's important for me to know and what
>you expect to gain from telling me.
Well, I would never tell anyone their work sucked, so I can't answer that. I
can only say that, as a writer, I appreciate knowing why someone didn't like or
didn't understand something I wrote, just so I can gauge my success in
expressing myself. So, if I gave such comments to another writer, I wouldn't
do it with the expectation of gaining anything, but of giving something to the
writer. Feedback. My feedback may be totally irrelevant if I have
misunderstood the intent of their story, in which case the author should just
disregard my comments. It's also possible that my feedback may help the writer
in some way. It's up to the writer to decide. I suppose it's kind of
equivalent to an actor interpreting a role. They sometimes question the writer
or director and are either told to shut up and do as is written or their
questioning may help the writer to see that the script needs revision.
MaryK
Lillian
> Lillian wrote:
> > That has always been my question to those who prefer
> > to pretend that there is no Season 3/4. It's not just the
> > writers, but the producers, directors, actors, etc.
> > There's always alot of tap-dancing, if there is a reply,
> > but nothing that doesn't negate the fact that they're
> > basically denying the year's work of hard work of all these people.
>
> Just to be difficult <g>
>
> Does it matter? Is there something
> that says that just because they filmed 4 seasons that everyone
> has to like all 4 seasons? Are the dS people somehow
> 'entitled' to our respect, praise, and adulation simply because
> they filmed it? I don't think so. I do enjoy all four seasons
> for different reasons, but I don't like every single episode
> and I don't think that I have too.
I agree totally. I'm not saying you have to like it. But it's insulting
to deny it exists.
I don't like Season 2 very much, but there are episodes that I love. There
are episodes in every season that I'm not crazy about and never rewatch.
But yes, there are moments in every episode that I do enjoy.
Lillian, who is ignoring the other threads now, so don't bother to reply to
her in those if you want an answer
LadyShoes
Lillian wrote:
> I'm not saying you have to like it. But it's insulting to deny it
exists.>
Thank you. I feel precisely the same way but those who adopt this stance
cannot seem to grasp the implications of what they are saying. I just
wonder how they would feel if I said: "Your fanfic does not exist. You did
not spend hours slaving over your computer searching for the perfect word at
3am. You did not post it to this or that list and no-one, consequently,
read it." But of course, some people think that insulting those involved on
the show is perfectly acceptable.
LS
Lillian
> Aren't you sorry for bringing it up!? :) I enjoyed the article
> very much but I'm probably biased. Anyone else here that
> was quoted but didn't care for the article?
I thought it was okay, but I still think that it could have been split up
into two articles, one on fanfic and one on fans... or maybe not. For some
reason it just seemed incredibly long to me.
I was happy to see I didn't make a complete fool out of myself (I don't
think). When the author wrote and asked me if she could interview me I
gave her my home and work number. I was pretty surprised at the speed at
which she called me.
She called unexpectedly (to me) in the evening, so I turned off the
television and the got up from the computer so I could concentrate and give
coherent (I hoped) answers. There were some things where I asked "where
did you hear *that*" because it surprised me. I know I got really
enthusiastic, as pacing was involved. good thing I have a long phone cord.
Other than that, the article was a good one. I was bothered by some of the
comments of the crowd, but the author made a lovely observation about what
goes one that the attendees don't know about.
All in all, the experience was a learning one, and the interviewer was
fair. Good thing she didn't pump me for too much information. ;)
Lillian