I hate "Normal Again"
Holden Webster
out of Season 6, and given how godawful that season was, that's saying
a lot. It ranks right up there with "Hell's Bells", "Smashed,"
"Wrecked", and "Seeing Red" as truly, truly loathesome. There are two
major reasons for this.
The first is that I just hate when a show or book takes the established
fantasy world it's created and tries to be "cool" by implying that it's
all the delusion of some character or another. This is not a new or
original idea. It's been in a bunch of different books, TV shows,
comics, and just about anything else. It grates me to no end.
I just don't think it's clever, especially when the episode/story ends
with us supposedly having the characters secure in the belief that
their reality really is real, and that all is well...Except for the
last five seconds, where it's implied that maybe it was never real to
begin with! Gasp! Shock! Horror! How unexpected!
I hated when they did it on Deep Space Nine, and I hated it on Buffy.
It smacks to me of the kind of idea the writer's probably thought was
cool and edgy, but in reality, it's just tromping all over the world
that's been created. Maybe if it was the first time I'd seen that plot
device used, I wouldn't mind so much. Maybe I'd think it was cool and
interesting then, but I just don't. It's a terrible cliche in the realm
of fantasy/sci-fi, and I don't think it's ever been done well.
When you make the reality of the show a delusion, you're basically
telling the audience they're wasting their time in caring what happens
to the characters. Things have to matter within the universe of the
show. If it's just a delusion, then why do I care? In fact, you're kind
of mocking me because I actually do care. Here I am hoping to find out
what happens in the lives of the characters and what events will occur
in the universe they live in, but instead I'm told that it's all just
in another character's imagination, and none of it is "real."
Now, look, I realize it's fiction. It's not real to begin with. But
undermining the reality of the fiction irks me. I *like* these
characters. I *like* this show. Don't piss all over that by telling me
none of it actually happened.
Maybe it's an irrational anger on my part, but *man* does it piss me
off.
The second thing I hate about Normal Again is the revelation that Buffy
tried to tell her parents about being the Slayer before she ever came
to Sunnydale. She was sent to a clinic for a few weeks before she wised
up and decided to stop claiming she was a vampire killer.
Do you realize how badly that fucks up the canon? Do you realize how
utterly clueless this makes Joyce look? It's bad enough how clueless
she was beforehand, but to realize that Buffy actually told her about
vampires and that she FORGOT about having her daughter in intensive
psychiatric care for several weeks is just mind blowing. You're telling
me that throughout the entire first two seasons, all the wacky stuff
that Joyce sees doesn't make anything click in her mind? Even if she
wasn't going to realize that vampires were actually real, wouldn't she
be severely worried that Buffy's behavior was a symptom of her mental
problems?
If your daughter had to be placed in a clinic for several weeks due to
delusions, and then a year later she's coming home with blood in her
clothes, burning down her high school gym, staying out all hours of the
night, and constantly in trouble, wouldn't you perhaps think that maybe
those two things were related? That maybe she should be seeing a
therapist, at the very least? That she might have a serious mental
condition?
I'm sorry, it just makes Joyce a terrible parent. Without that
revelation, I could go with the idea that Joyce just thinks Buffy is a
troubled teenager who's acting out. I could buy into the idea that the
hellmouth is affecting her judgment like it affects so many others in
town. I could roll with the notion that Joyce is just confused and
unsure of how to deal with her daughter.
But if I take "Normal Again" as canon, I have to view Joyce as just a
terribly unattentive and uncaring mother. OR, I have to view the whole
show as Buffy's delusion. Either way, I feel like I lose.
Then I start getting annoyed thinking about Buffy telling Joyce in the
first place. Why would it be so hard to convince her parents she was
telling the truth? Buffy can bench several hundred pounds at the very
least. Wouldn't that alone be at least enough proof for her parents to
not commit her right away?
It makes much more sense if Buffy is just afraid to tell her parents
anything right from the start. If we go with the idea that she told
them about being the Slayer from the beginning, everything falls apart.
Maybe she wouldn't want to stake a vampire in front of them, but she's
STILL THE FREAKING SLAYER! DO A THOUSAND ONE-HANDED PUSHUPS OR
SOMETHING! BEND A PIPE IN HALF! If she was actually sticking to her
story for so long that she was put into a clinic for several weeks,
then why is Buffy too dumb to try something like that?
God, what a terrible episode.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> last five seconds, where it's implied that maybe it was never real to
> begin with! Gasp! Shock! Horror! How unexpected!
one aspect is that buffy doesnt take the antidote
so from her point of view
she is rejecting the -normal again- world
and goes back into the sunnydale world even if it feels like a delusion
beacuse her tie to her friends is so strong
and maybe in some world a psychiatrist would tell you
to go into a hallucination and kill people
but not in this world
> utterly clueless this makes Joyce look? It's bad enough how clueless
as clueless as she did before
now if they had ended season seven with buffy waking up in a psych unit
and bobby in the shower
then i think a rabid mob wouldve chased down whedon and lynched him
arf meow arf - dogs and cats living together
the erisian constancy - though chaos is transformed
but never lost to sea - grey ordered ranks are swarmed
Dale Ratner
> I do. I really hate it. I think it's one of the worst things to come
> out of Season 6, and given how godawful that season was, that's saying
> a lot. It ranks right up there with "Hell's Bells", "Smashed,"
> "Wrecked", and "Seeing Red" as truly, truly loathesome. There are two
> major reasons for this.
>
Yeah. "Normal Again" is a dire episode for all the reasons you give. I
think it would have been a more tolerable episode if they did not cut
back to Buffy in the mental hospital with the doctor solemenly declaring
"we lost her" at the very end before the credits. That moment just
seemed like a very intentional "Fuck You" to the audience from the writers.
The stuff about Buffy being sent to a mental hospital while still in LA
is pure retcon and really does hurt the entire show history if you think
about it logically.
curlyQlink
"Holden Webster" <holdenw...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1126333770.5...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> When you make the reality of the show a delusion, you're basically
> telling the audience they're wasting their time in caring what happens
> to the characters. Things have to matter within the universe of the
> show. If it's just a delusion, then why do I care? In fact, you're kind
> of mocking me because I actually do care. Here I am hoping to find out
> what happens in the lives of the characters and what events will occur
> in the universe they live in, but instead I'm told that it's all just
> in another character's imagination, and none of it is "real."
I on the other hand have absolutely no problem with this kind of
storytelling device, and I don't understand people's concern over canon and
the "facts" of the character's histories.
In storytelling, themes and variations are perfectly acceptable. These
alternative story lines are simply exploring the world of "what if". Ever
see Tom Tykwer's wonderful film "Run Lola Run"? It tells the same story
three different ways. They're all fun, and obsessing over which one is
"real" just ruins the fun.
Diane Wilson
Buffy has hit rock bottom. She's depressed; she hates herself
and her life; her affair with Spike has been exposed; one of
her best friends, the one who just one episode before had been
her hope of a "light at the end of the tunnel", has just screwed
up his own life beyond measure; she's responsible for her sister
who has turned out to be a total kleptomaniac; she's been abandoned
by everyone who could possibly offer her any guidance and support;
she's overwhelmed by debt and responsibility on every side of her
life.
In the middle of all this, she has the choice to turn it all back,
not be the Slayer any more, not be an adult any more, and have
both of her parents back.
As Angel told Faith, it's all about choices. Buffy has to choose
what matters to her. And she does choose, rather than letting the
choice be made for her.
Outstanding episode. Far from being a monster-of-the-week
episode, it's at the core of what season 6 is about. It's also
the turning point where Buffy starts to come back to the world.
Definitely one of my top-ten.
Diane
nimue
Normal Again is the worst BtVS episode EVER and is also one of the worst
episodes EVER to air on television. I hate it for all the excellent reasons
Holden gave. You cannot compare Run Lola Run to Normal Again. RLR was
built around the premise that there were alternative endings -- THAT was the
piece that held the movie together, the hub from which all elements of the
movie developed. That was NOT the case with BtVS. We for YEARS had
accepted the Buffyverse and then to throw our suspension of disbelief in our
faces was just incredibly rude of the writers.
--
nimue
"The discovery of teaching was a miracle."
Louise Gluck
nimue
Metaphorically, yes. Literally, though, it presented us with an unpalatable
and upsetting idea. Obviously, the Buffyverse is fantasy, blah, blah, blah,
but we have accepted it as a reality and to have that yanked away -- no.
Fuck the writers of that episode.
>
> Definitely one of my top-ten.
Good. You can keep it. For me -- I put it on the shelf of other episodes
that were so disgusting they never even existed, like the last episode of
Xena, Warrior Prince.
>
> Diane
him...@animail.net
Holden Webster wrote:
<snippage of fine rant on this particular plot line>
>
> Maybe it's an irrational anger on my part, but *man* does it piss me
> off.
We all have our quirks on this sort of thing. This doesn't happen to
be one of mine...my big one is the amnesia plot line, although I liked
Tabula Rasa so go figure. As for NA, meh. Not the best, not the
worst.
>
<further snippage of rant on Joyce being a bad parent for ignoring
clues>
>
> But if I take "Normal Again" as canon, I have to view Joyce as just a
> terribly unattentive and uncaring mother. OR, I have to view the whole
> show as Buffy's delusion. Either way, I feel like I lose.
Or you can view NA as an alternate universe in which there really are
no vampires (and possibly no shrimp either) and therefore none of these
clues.
I realize that probably won't help. If you hate the episode, you hate
it. But this is how I interpreted it.
himiko
Charles Lincoln
news:MPG.1d8cb55a75d289a9989b62@news-server...
of the same things. I totally agree that "Normal Again" is one of the best
Buffyverse Episodes ever, and I'd just like to add that, to me, this episode
contains one of the greatest and most profound "truths" of Whedonian
philosophy, psychoanalysis, and epistemology---that it is difficult if not
impossible to know "the truth."
The fans who are writing in this thread how much they HATE "Normal
Again" are angry that they are reminded of one view of reality---that their
"suspended disbelief" is merely "suspended" during the show---and that they
can't "take it with them" into the outside world. Well, I suppose I belong
in the same loony bin as Buffy, because I take my suspension of disbelief
with me everywhere. I particularly try take it with me to my daily dealings
with the Courts and the Government: we have to pretend to believe that we
are NOT dealing with Demons and Vampires---because if we tell them what we
really think they are---they'll kill us all (well, they might kill us
anyhow, but the chances are slightly less if we don't "mouth off" to often
or too loudly). We have to suspend our disbelief even when going to the
grocery store or shopping anywhere---"this is all good for us, right?"
Joss Whedon tells us, from very early in Buffy Season I---I was
watching "Out of Mind, Out of Sight" just yesterday on FX---that we shape
reality by our beliefs. What are we willing to believe and why? The
metaphors of vampirism have such an intense and widespread grip on the
popular imagination in the modern Western World, I think, because of the
confused state of our beliefs in between Western Religion and Science.
Whedon deals with this tension in the most brilliant paradigm that has yet
been developed, I think. Who is the real Buffy and how do we know? That's
"Normal Again." It's the epistemological question reflected in the
querry---"if a tree falls in the woods and there's no one to hear and
nothing to record the sound---does it make any sound at all?" How would we
ever know?
Re: Marci Ross---If no one perceives that we exist within the world,
do we cease to exist within the world? If no one sees us, is it not because
we are invisible? How could we possibly know?
At Slayage 2004 in Nashville, James South compared "Normal Again" to
Plato's Parable of the Cave in Republic, Book VI.
I hadn't made the connexion myself but after he made that
comparison, I could never get it out of my mind, and it's become one of the
foundations of all my thinking about/enthusiasm for Buffy. Because I have
been interested in precisely this problem for almost 30 years (again, hate
to divulge my age here) since I first read Calderon de la Barca's play "La
Vida es Sueno" in college. This was a long time before movies such as
"Total Recall", "The Sphere," and "The Matrix" ever came out. The story is
much like "Alice in Wonderland" or even "The Wizard of Oz"---I'm sure that
people who hate "Normal Again" should also hate the 1939 Judy Garland
version of the "Wizard of Oz," because, in the original book---Oz is not a
dreamland---it is real, and Dorothy actually goes there in a cyclone rather
than through a bump on the head.
In 16th century Spain, I think that people must have been just as
challenged by the disconformity between "official" reality and what they
thought they could see must have been almost as great as it is today---the
glorious official world of Imperial Hapsburg Kings and the Spanish
resuscitation of the Roman Empire of conquest in the New World did not
exactly match with the internal rot of Spanish society at home, with the
rampant inflation caused by the influx of excessive New World Gold, and the
elimination and/or repression into secrecy of some of the most educated,
artistic, and intellectual segments of Spanish society with the expulsion of
Jews and Moslems in and after 1492. The Spanish Empire by the late
16th/early 17th century was in MANY ways analogous to American society in
the late 20th/early 21st centuries, and so the theme of unknowable truths
has once again come to the forefront of consciousness.
Richard Edwards
> I do. I really hate it. I think it's one of the worst things to come
> out of Season 6, and given how godawful that season was, that's saying
> a lot.
While I didn't have the same reaction to that particular episode, I feel
your pain. Much of the stuff in season 6 came off that way to me.
Still a great show at that point, but nowhere near as good as it should
have been.
Later,
Richard
Charles Lincoln
Diane Wilson
him...@animail.net says...
>
> Holden Webster wrote:
>
> <snippage of fine rant on this particular plot line>
> >
> > Maybe it's an irrational anger on my part, but *man* does it piss me
> > off.
>
> We all have our quirks on this sort of thing. This doesn't happen to
> be one of mine...my big one is the amnesia plot line, although I liked
> Tabula Rasa so go figure. As for NA, meh. Not the best, not the
> worst.
> >
> <further snippage of rant on Joyce being a bad parent for ignoring
> clues>
> >
> > But if I take "Normal Again" as canon, I have to view Joyce as just a
> > terribly unattentive and uncaring mother. OR, I have to view the whole
> > show as Buffy's delusion. Either way, I feel like I lose.
>
> Or you can view NA as an alternate universe in which there really are
> no vampires (and possibly no shrimp either) and therefore none of these
> clues.
In a multiverse, all dimensions exist as actuals or potentials.
In the Buffyverse, separate dimensions interact quite often.
Nightmares, Doppelgangland, Faith Hope and Trick (Angel's return),
Anne, to name a few. So there's plenty of precedent. What's the
big deal?
On Joyce, her limitation as a parent was that she could only cope
with a good daughter. She was utterly incapable of dealing with
Buffy's other life. That, too, goes back to the very beginning.
Diane
Diane Wilson
says...
> Diane Wilson wrote:
> > One of my favorite episodes from S6.
> >
> > Buffy has hit rock bottom. She's depressed; she hates herself
> > and her life; her affair with Spike has been exposed; one of
> > her best friends, the one who just one episode before had been
> > her hope of a "light at the end of the tunnel", has just screwed
> > up his own life beyond measure; she's responsible for her sister
> > who has turned out to be a total kleptomaniac; she's been abandoned
> > by everyone who could possibly offer her any guidance and support;
> > she's overwhelmed by debt and responsibility on every side of her
> > life.
> >
> > In the middle of all this, she has the choice to turn it all back,
> > not be the Slayer any more, not be an adult any more, and have
> > both of her parents back.
> >
> > As Angel told Faith, it's all about choices. Buffy has to choose
> > what matters to her. And she does choose, rather than letting the
> > choice be made for her.
> >
> > Outstanding episode. Far from being a monster-of-the-week
> > episode, it's at the core of what season 6 is about. It's also
> > the turning point where Buffy starts to come back to the world.
>
> Metaphorically, yes. Literally, though, it presented us with an unpalatable
> and upsetting idea. Obviously, the Buffyverse is fantasy, blah, blah, blah,
> but we have accepted it as a reality and to have that yanked away -- no.
> Fuck the writers of that episode.
The Buffy writers pulled the carpet out from under us on numerous
occasions. Sometimes it was entertaining. Sometimes it was
upsetting. Without question, this was one of the upsetting ones,
but that doesn't make it a bad episode.
Joss and others have always been pretty clear about writing shows
that they *need* to write. It's not always pretty or comfortable when
writers do that.
Have you listened to the commentary on Normal Again? It's one
of the best commentaries of the entire series, a real master
class on using postmodernism to construct a story. Excellent.
Diane
Holden Webster
The Joyce we see in the first two seasons (before she finds out about
Buffy being the Slayer) is someone who, despite being kind of
overwhelmed by all her daughter's problems, genuinely does love her and
care about her and tries to do right by her most of the time.
But if it turns out that Joyce *knew* that her daughter was delusional
and still didn't get her into psychiatric care after she *burned down
her high school gym*.... Not to mention all the other weirdness that
happened in the first two seasons of the show.... That's a level of
cluelessness that borders on neglect.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> watching "Out of Mind, Out of Sight" just yesterday on FX---that we shape
> reality by our beliefs. What are we willing to believe and why? The
presumes reality is subjective
which diverts to long and boring argument over whether it is objective or not
a simpler observation is that our perceptions are always filtered
and the filters are driven by what we expect or believe
becoming a self reinforcing feedback loop
it is easier for people to adjust their perception to match their beliefs
than it is for them to adjust their beliefs to reality
unless reality forces them to in some painful or unpleasant fashion
then it doesnt matter if reality is objective or not
our perceptions of reallity will always be subjective
> At Slayage 2004 in Nashville, James South compared "Normal Again" to
> Plato's Parable of the Cave in Republic, Book VI.
actually the parable disproves its own conjecture
the parable is about platos nonsense that there exists ideal objects
and our perceived objects are mere shadows of real objects
actually human minds work the other way
people are much better at working with very real objects
and thinking in terms of examples of real objects
and not usually in terms of some abstract object class
a parable is a verbal equivalent
wherein you are presented with a realistic concrete situation
with realistic people doing realistic things
from which the student is supposed to abstract a general principle
so parable presented to prove parables are false concpets
implodes on itself and dies a noisome death
him...@animail.net
Holden Webster wrote:
> But if it turns out that Joyce *knew* that her daughter was delusional
> and still didn't get her into psychiatric care after she *burned down
> her high school gym*.... Not to mention all the other weirdness that
> happened in the first two seasons of the show.... That's a level of
> cluelessness that borders on neglect.
Huh? Joyce didn't notice any of this stuff because it didn't happen,
not in the NA universe. She noticed that her daughter suddenly had a
schizophrenic break of some sort and instantly got her treatment. Same
Joyce, more or less, just a different situation.
himiko
KenM47
>I do. I really hate it. I think it's one of the worst things to come
>out of Season 6, and given how godawful that season was, that's saying
>a lot. It ranks right up there with "Hell's Bells", "Smashed,"
>"Wrecked", and "Seeing Red" as truly, truly loathesome. There are two
>major reasons for this.
>
<SNIP>
GREAT post. I agree completely.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Holden Webster
No, I'm talking about the regular Buffyverse Joyce, not the Normal
Again-verse Joyce. In NA, Buffy reveals that she was institutionalized
in the regular Buffyverse:
WILLOW: You are not in an institution. You have never been in an
institution.
BUFFY: (whispers) Yes, I have.
WILLOW: What?
BUFFY: (sighs) Back when I saw my first vampires... (shot of the photo)
I got so scared. I told my parents ... and they completely freaked out.
They thought there was something seriously wrong with me. So they sent
me to a clinic.
That dialouge takes place in the regular Buffyverse. It's not part of
the demon-induced delusion. So Joyce fully believed that her daughter
was delusional and sent her to an institution, yet after she got out,
did nothing when Buffy started burning down school buildings and
getting into all sorts of other weird situations. That's neglect.
curlyQlink
"nimue" <cup_o...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:RKCUe.933$Ap4.1...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
> Diane Wilson wrote:
> > One of my favorite episodes from S6.
I can't say it's one of my favorites. But it's perfectly legitimate
storytelling.
> > In the middle of all this, she has the choice to turn it all back,
> > not be the Slayer any more, not be an adult any more, and have
> > both of her parents back.
> >
> > As Angel told Faith, it's all about choices. Buffy has to choose
> > what matters to her. And she does choose, rather than letting the
> > choice be made for her.
> >
> > Outstanding episode. Far from being a monster-of-the-week
> > episode, it's at the core of what season 6 is about. It's also
> > the turning point where Buffy starts to come back to the world.
>
> Metaphorically, yes. Literally, though, it presented us with an
unpalatable
> and upsetting idea. Obviously, the Buffyverse is fantasy, blah, blah,
blah,
> but we have accepted it as a reality
And there's the rub. In "accepting it as reality". Accept it as *story*,
and the entire series becomes a lot more enjoyable.
It's curious, but audiences seem to have come to expect realism even in the
most fantastical of stories. (Hence the plodding seriousness of stuff like
the LOTR movies, and Star Wars-- but that's a separate gripe.) Then there
is the oxymoron that is the "magical realism" genre. Buffy not only isn't
real, it isn't even cast in the mold of realism. It's more in the mode of
the fantasies of ETA Hoffman.
I agree that this particular episode was unpalatable. Also dark and kinda
depressing. That's why I didn't like it. But the writers were not doing
any kind of disservice to us or to the show when they dreamed it up.
KenM47
Actually, it's bad writing indicative of all of S6 and S7, IMO.
Your points are dead on, so to speak.
Ken (Brooklyn)
KenM47
You confuse expecting the storyteller to tell a story with expecting,
paying for, an internal cohesiveness and continuity. In Buffy's case
(unlike Run, Lola, Run where the alternate takes were the purpose of
the exercise) we had 5 years of canon/continuity (yes, there were
mistakes, but so few as to be a miracle). NA was, IMO and it looks
like others, a betrayal of that continuity and the fans who had
willingly suspended disbelief.
I suggest reading Stephen King's thinly disguised lessons on writing
fiction novelized as "Misery." I think the old campfire storytelling
game he describes (when Annie doesn't buy the story of Misery's
resurrection) was called "Didhe." In NA, Whedon/Noxon DidNot.
Ken (Brooklyn)
EGK
>"Holden Webster" <holdenw...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>That dialouge takes place in the regular Buffyverse. It's not part of
>>the demon-induced delusion. So Joyce fully believed that her daughter
>>was delusional and sent her to an institution, yet after she got out,
>>did nothing when Buffy started burning down school buildings and
>>getting into all sorts of other weird situations. That's neglect.
>
>Actually, it's bad writing indicative of all of S6 and S7, IMO.
>
>Your points are dead on, so to speak.
It's an example of a show that starts to get weighed down by it's own
mythology. The X-Files was the classic example but BTVS couldn't avoid it
either. It happened a lot once they tried shoe-horning Spike in as a
regular. Various episodes offered a plethora of retcons.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There would be a lot more civility in this world if people
didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you"
(Calvin and Hobbes)
KenM47
>On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 18:36:58 GMT, KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>>"Holden Webster" <holdenw...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>>That dialouge takes place in the regular Buffyverse. It's not part of
>>>the demon-induced delusion. So Joyce fully believed that her daughter
>>>was delusional and sent her to an institution, yet after she got out,
>>>did nothing when Buffy started burning down school buildings and
>>>getting into all sorts of other weird situations. That's neglect.
>>
>>Actually, it's bad writing indicative of all of S6 and S7, IMO.
>>
>>Your points are dead on, so to speak.
>
>It's an example of a show that starts to get weighed down by it's own
>mythology. The X-Files was the classic example but BTVS couldn't avoid it
>either. It happened a lot once they tried shoe-horning Spike in as a
>regular. Various episodes offered a plethora of retcons.
Spike! You bet.
Goes hand in hand with all discussions of the decline of S6 and S7.
Ken (Brooklyn)
nimue
I refuse to even watch Normal Again, so I haven't listened to the
commentary. I *might* now that you have said this -- but probably not. I
have too much to do to spend time on crap I hate.
him...@animail.net
Holden Webster wrote:
> No, I'm talking about the regular Buffyverse Joyce, not the Normal
> Again-verse Joyce. In NA, Buffy reveals that she was institutionalized
> in the regular Buffyverse:
>
> WILLOW: You are not in an institution. You have never been in an
> institution.
> BUFFY: (whispers) Yes, I have.
> WILLOW: What?
> BUFFY: (sighs) Back when I saw my first vampires... (shot of the photo)
> I got so scared. I told my parents ... and they completely freaked out.
> They thought there was something seriously wrong with me. So they sent
> me to a clinic.
>
> That dialouge takes place in the regular Buffyverse. It's not part of
> the demon-induced delusion. So Joyce fully believed that her daughter
> was delusional and sent her to an institution, yet after she got out,
> did nothing when Buffy started burning down school buildings and
> getting into all sorts of other weird situations. That's neglect.
Sorry, I completely misinterpreted your point. To me, this isn't a big
issue and not actually a sign of neglect on Joyce's part. I do think
it's a minor oversight on the part of the writers, but quite
fanwankable.
I think it has to do with how one sees S1-2 Joyce. She seemed to me
like the mother of a disturbed adolescent who doesn't know what's going
on on what to do about it. It's not like she didn't know something was
wrong. She did. She just didn't know what. She talked about it with
her ex-husband and with Buffy on several occasions. One notable one
was in SH where she began to acknowledge that for all her problems
(which she assumed they both knew about), she was happy to see that
Buffy could take care of herself and others.
She was aware of the school burning down; it's one of the reasons she
moved to Sunnydale...to get her daughter away from the past and from
"bad influences." She did this at some cost to her own life. Adding
in a psychotic break of some sort doesn't seem far fetched. It
strengthens Joyce's motives for making a major move soley to benefit
her daughter. Of course, Buffy couldn't really escape that way, but
Joyce didn't know that. And if you watch WTTH and Buffy's first
encounter with Giles, it's clear Buffy actually thought this might work
too. They were both wrong. Buffy just had to realize it sooner than
Joyce.
But Joyce wasn't oblivious, just unsure of the nature of the problem.
She did try to corner her daughter on several occasions and get her to
talk. Buffy wouldn't. I suspect Joyce did notice the blood stains.
She knew her daughter was troubled, often in trouble, and probably
fighting physically. She just didn't know why, and vampire slaying
didn't occur to her. I honestly don't see that as neglect. Being the
parent of a troubled adolescent is no bed of roses, and although Joyce
often blew it, she did try. That's the best any parent can do.
himiko
Don Sample
KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Only if you buy that the hospital was "real" and Sunnydale was the
delusion. If Sunnydale was "real" and the hospital was the delusion the
only problem was that Buffy had never mentioned that she'd spent a
couple of weeks in a mental institution. (And hey, that's the sort of
thing that a lot of people tend not to mention.)
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
KenM47
Except as "Holden Webster" pointed out it impacts greatly (for me and
again some others, maybe not you) on one's perception of Joyce,
Buffy's pre-Sunnydale life, etc. It also distracts from the little we
saw of called Buffy in Becoming and that first Watcher (what was he
doing while Buffy was institutionalized, or are we supposed to think
that was before Buffy was approached by that Watcher? Either way, one
would expect it to have come up somewhere in her dealings with Giles.)
Ken (Brooklyn)
Stephen Tempest
>That dialouge takes place in the regular Buffyverse. It's not part of
>the demon-induced delusion. So Joyce fully believed that her daughter
>was delusional and sent her to an institution, yet after she got out,
>did nothing when Buffy started burning down school buildings and
>getting into all sorts of other weird situations. That's neglect.
You're assuming that the burning down the school buildings happened
after Buffy was released from the clinic, then? I think it's far more
likely to be the other way round.
If your daughter, whose worst crime previously was shoplifting
lipstick, suddenly sets fire to the school gymnasium, then sending her
for psychiatric evaluation seems like a fairly sensible idea.
Especially if she starts babbling about the gym being full of
vampires...
But the clinic studied Buffy and determined that she *wasn't*
delusional or insane. ("I stopped talking about it so they let me
go"). They released her back to her parents with a clean bill of
mental health - apart from violent tendencies and an over-active
imagination.
The Joyce we see in seasons 1 & 2 is perfectly consistent with this.
She's clearly worried about her daughter: terrified that she'll fall
back into her old ways - violence, fighting, vandalism, burning down
school property. When she drops Buffy off at Sunnydale High for the
first time, her parting words are "Try not to get expelled" (!).
Sure, 'Normal Again' was a retcon - but IMO not one that "destroyed
the continuity of the entire show..."
Stephen
Don Sample
"Holden Webster" <holdenw...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Joyce *did* get Buffy into psychiatric care after she burned down the
high school gym. And after holding her for a couple of weeks the
psychiatrists decided that Buffy was fine.
After that, Buffy never mentioned the weirdness to her mother again.
Joyce only saw a somewhat troubled daughter who had a tendency to stay
out after curfew.
Don Sample
"Holden Webster" <holdenw...@yahoo.com> wrote:
You are assuming that the school gym incident was after Buffy had been
sent to the clinic. I think it is much more likely the other way
around. Buffy told her parents about the vampires and demons when they
demanded an explanation for the gym incident, and she got shipped off
the clinic for observation.
KenM47
Fanwank or you can point to something? We also never, AFAIK, got a
Buffyverse TV explanation about the school burning down. Determined to
be an accident? Gas Leak? Smoking behind the trash dumpster? What? It
certainly wasn't vampires, right?
BTW, the Carrie H.S. burned down. As best I presently recall, the
movie Buffy H.S. did not burn down.
We really do not know why the TV Hemery High (was it?) burned down.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Don Sample
KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
If she was institutionalized after she burned down the gym, Merrick was
dead by then.
John Briggs
It was only the gymnasium. The nearest you'll get to an explanation is in
the comic book "The Origin" - which is the filmscript retconned to conform
to the TV series.
--
John Briggs
Rocky Frisco
> curlyQlink wrote:
>
>>"Holden Webster" <holdenw...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:1126333770.5...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>When you make the reality of the show a delusion, you're basically
>>>telling the audience they're wasting their time in caring what
>>>happens to the characters. Things have to matter within the universe
>>>of the show. If it's just a delusion, then why do I care? In fact,
>>>you're kind of mocking me because I actually do care. Here I am
>>>hoping to find out what happens in the lives of the characters and
>>>what events will occur in the universe they live in, but instead I'm
>>>told that it's all just in another character's imagination, and none
>>>of it is "real."
>>
>>I on the other hand have absolutely no problem with this kind of
>>storytelling device, and I don't understand people's concern over
>>canon and the "facts" of the character's histories.
>>
>>In storytelling, themes and variations are perfectly acceptable.
>>These alternative story lines are simply exploring the world of "what
>>if". Ever see Tom Tykwer's wonderful film "Run Lola Run"? It tells
>>the same story three different ways. They're all fun, and obsessing
>>over which one is "real" just ruins the fun.
>
>
> Normal Again is the worst BtVS episode EVER and is also one of the worst
> episodes EVER to air on television. I hate it for all the excellent reasons
> Holden gave. You cannot compare Run Lola Run to Normal Again. RLR was
> built around the premise that there were alternative endings -- THAT was the
> piece that held the movie together, the hub from which all elements of the
> movie developed. That was NOT the case with BtVS. We for YEARS had
> accepted the Buffyverse and then to throw our suspension of disbelief in our
> faces was just incredibly rude of the writers.
The point of that episode AND its incredibly strong message, possibly
the reason you hate it so much, is to totally question reality and how
we define what is real. Robert Sheckley did a similar thing in a
different way in one of his excellent books, "Mindswap."
I also found the episode really disturbing since it was a complete visit
to hell for a character I had come to love, played by an actor I had
also come to love. Her choice, to continue the good fight, was wonderful.
Most people, unless they have had an epiphany of some sort, deal with
the question of what is real by suppressing and ignoring the question.
Having it brought up in the way it was in the episode had the potential
to be really upsetting. For those who were seriously angered or upset by
it, I recommend reading some Alan Watts and the Tao Te Ching.
-Rock http://www.rocky-frisco.com
--
Rocky Frisco's LIBERTY website: http://www.liberty-in-our-time.com/
The World's Best Daily News Service: http://www.rationalreview.com/
Rock onstage with JJ Cale and E. Clapton: http://tinyurl.com/3modw
Holden Webster
him...@animail.net wrote:
>
> But Joyce wasn't oblivious, just unsure of the nature of the problem.
> She did try to corner her daughter on several occasions and get her to
> talk. Buffy wouldn't. I suspect Joyce did notice the blood stains.
> She knew her daughter was troubled, often in trouble, and probably
> fighting physically. She just didn't know why, and vampire slaying
> didn't occur to her. I honestly don't see that as neglect. Being the
> parent of a troubled adolescent is no bed of roses, and although Joyce
> often blew it, she did try. That's the best any parent can do.
>
> himiko
"She knew her daughter was troubled, often in trouble, and probably
fighting physically."
Then she should have done something. Let's say that the fanwank that
Buffy was institutionalized *after* burning down her high school gym is
true. Suppose that your daughter had to be institutionalized for severe
delusions at one point. Then, a year late, she's coming home with blood
in her clothes, staying out really late at night, and is constantly in
trouble at school. Are you telling me that it wouldn't even occur to
you that those things might be connected to her delusions? The
possibility wouldn't even cross your mind?
Maybe Joyce might not want to have Buffy committed again, but you can't
tell me that she wouldn't think her seeing a therapist at the very
least would be a good idea. For Joyce to never even mention it really
does paint her as a terrible, uncaring mother.
John Briggs
"It's only a movie, Ingrid!"
--
John Briggs
nimue
snip
>
> The point of that episode AND its incredibly strong message, possibly
> the reason you hate it so much, is to totally question reality and how
> we define what is real.
No. The reason I hate NA again so much is that it inflicts upon Buffy a
fate worse than death -- a horrible mental illness that is VERY REAL.
THAT'S why I hated it and I said so when it first aired. I am very
interested in what we define as real (for example, how we define what is
beautiful and what is not). An exploration of that is fascinating to me BUT
I do not think using a schizophrenic-type illness to explore the nature of
reality was a good or appropriate choice. That illness is so brutal, so
painful, and SO REAL, that I found that my whole focus went onto the horror
of what that illness is and I was enraged that the beauty of the Buffyverse
was reduced to a schizophrenic hallucination. That mocks the disease, imo,
and shows an appalling lack of sympathy.
>Robert Sheckley did a similar thing in a
> different way in one of his excellent books, "Mindswap."
>
> I also found the episode really disturbing since it was a complete
> visit to hell for a character I had come to love, played by an actor
> I had also come to love. Her choice, to continue the good fight, was
> wonderful.
>
> Most people, unless they have had an epiphany of some sort, deal with
> the question of what is real by suppressing and ignoring the question.
> Having it brought up in the way it was in the episode had the
> potential to be really upsetting. For those who were seriously
> angered or upset by it, I recommend reading some Alan Watts and the
> Tao Te Ching.
>
Actually, the thing that upset me so much about this episode was the
inescapable REALITY of mental illness. Let me tell you what real is -- it's
a horrible illness, an illness that is, imo, a fate worse than death. The
mental illness that Buffy suffered in NA was just that type of illness and
that is REAL. Have you ever known or worked with people who have a terrible
mental illness? Good god -- I just couldn't get past the brutal reality of
that. I could not stand to see something so dreadful done to Buffy. God,
it was gruesome. I cannot view NA as a metaphor because the reality they
dragged the episode into was too common, frightening, and ugly. THAT is
what was so upsetting -- NOT the idea that we must question what is real --
that's nothing. Some things ARE real and ARE horrifying and ARE, for some,
inevitable and to curse Buffy and to despoil the Buffyverse with that was
disgusting.
> -Rock http://www.rocky-frisco.com
Diane Wilson
@ix.netcom.com says...
Because it was full of vampires... errr, asbestos. In Buffy's own
words, as told to Principal Flutie; she did it and she admitted
it. WTTH.
Or did you want the police report? One assumes that, with regard
to vampires, the LA police were as "deeply stupid" as the police
in Sunnydale.
I really don't see why there are continuity problems with Normal Again.
Yes, the bit about being institutionalized was new, but that's not
exactly the kind of secret Buffy was likely to share with anyone.
As for the alternate universe, it's not like it hasn't been done
before. I never felt like I was being asked to believe it. The
whole point of the episode is that Buffy believed it, and that
Buffy couldn't distinguish between Sunnydale and a mental
hospital, and that Buffy was going to have to choose one or the
other even in the absence of any (to her) reliable proof. At no
time did I ever feel that I personally had to believe that
Sunnydale was just a delusion.
Joyce overwhelmed by Buffy's problems and in semi-constant
denial about virtually everything? Nothing new there, either.
There is no timeline for that period; *anything* regarding
timing is fanwank, regardless of whether you put the fire
first, or Buffy being institutionalized.
Yes, Normal Again is an intensely discomforting episode.
Buffy tried to kill her sister and all her friends; there's
no way to dress that up. But it's also an episode that demands
a great deal from the viewer. You *have* to take a step back
and look at the whole of Normal Again at a symbolic level.
Buffy has to decide to come back to the world and be part of
it again. It is really the first time that she has accepted
that since Willow brought her back from the dead. That's
the dual meaning of "Normal Again": she can be a "normal girl"
or she can be normal Buffy. She hasn't been either one for
a long time. It's her choice.
Diane
bjw73
Just to reiterate a few points made before:
Diane Wilson wrote:
Buffy has hit rock bottom. She's depressed; she hates herself
and her life; her affair with Spike has been exposed; one of
her best friends, the one who just one episode before had been
her hope of a "light at the end of the tunnel", has just screwed
up his own life beyond measure; she's responsible for her sister
who has turned out to be a total kleptomaniac; she's been abandoned
by everyone who could possibly offer her any guidance and support;
she's overwhelmed by debt and responsibility on every side of her
life.
In the middle of all this, she has the choice to turn it all back,
not be the Slayer any more, not be an adult any more, and have
both of her parents back.
As Angel told Faith, it's all about choices. Buffy has to choose
what matters to her. And she does choose, rather than letting the
choice be made for her.
Outstanding episode. Far from being a monster-of-the-week
episode, it's at the core of what season 6 is about. It's also
the turning point where Buffy starts to come back to the world.
Rocky Frisco wrote:
The point of that episode AND its incredibly strong message, possibly
the reason you hate it so much, is to totally question reality and how
we define what is real.
This was one of my all-time favourite epiodes. Kind of a mind f**k, this is
good 'cause it let's you ponder.
KenM47
So, Buffy just would never say to Giles, say in WTTH, where was the
Watchers' Council when Merrick died and they threw me into the loony
bin? And Giles would never mention that he knew or did not know about
Buffy's stint in the bin, nor would this color his interactions with
Joyce?
I don't buy the retcon. Never have. Never will.
Ken (Brooklyn)
KenM47
For me, the retcon was the worst of it for reasons stated by me
elsewhere and as pointed out by "Holden."
I have less problems with the alternae universe part EXCEPT for the
seeming ambiguous ending. That's a slap in the face.
And isn't that also the episode where Xander returns after dumping
Anya at the altar? Looking to renew his sexual relationship without
the commitment? If so, another reason I d/n care for it.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Diane Wilson
cup_o...@yahoo.com says...
> No. The reason I hate NA again so much is that it inflicts upon Buffy a
> fate worse than death -- a horrible mental illness that is VERY REAL.
> THAT'S why I hated it and I said so when it first aired. I am very
> interested in what we define as real (for example, how we define what is
> beautiful and what is not). An exploration of that is fascinating to me BUT
> I do not think using a schizophrenic-type illness to explore the nature of
> reality was a good or appropriate choice. That illness is so brutal, so
> painful, and SO REAL, that I found that my whole focus went onto the horror
> of what that illness is and I was enraged that the beauty of the Buffyverse
> was reduced to a schizophrenic hallucination. That mocks the disease, imo,
> and shows an appalling lack of sympathy.
> Actually, the thing that upset me so much about this episode was the
> inescapable REALITY of mental illness. Let me tell you what real is -- it's
> a horrible illness, an illness that is, imo, a fate worse than death. The
> mental illness that Buffy suffered in NA was just that type of illness and
> that is REAL. Have you ever known or worked with people who have a terrible
> mental illness? Good god -- I just couldn't get past the brutal reality of
> that. I could not stand to see something so dreadful done to Buffy. God,
> it was gruesome. I cannot view NA as a metaphor because the reality they
> dragged the episode into was too common, frightening, and ugly. THAT is
> what was so upsetting -- NOT the idea that we must question what is real --
> that's nothing. Some things ARE real and ARE horrifying and ARE, for some,
> inevitable and to curse Buffy and to despoil the Buffyverse with that was
> disgusting.
No need to lecture; there are enough of us around who have had to deal
with mental illness in one form or another. The fact that I could
identify with what Buffy was going through made the episode *more*
meaningful, and not at all disgusting.
It's no more brutal than other horrors that the writers have inflicted on
Buffy in the past. Having to kill Angel in Becoming comes immediately
to mind. Finding Joyce dead on the sofa. Having her body stolen
by Faith.
Joss has made it very clear that these emotional bombshells
are the true horror of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Diane
alphakitten
> Ken (Brooklyn)
To butt in for a minute...
Merrick dies in the movie, we don't know what happened to the TV
version. Personally, I've never bought that Buffy having lost a watcher
would not have been mentioned in FH&T. The movie is not canon for the show.
~Angel
BTR1701
"nimue" <cup_o...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Actually, the thing that upset me so much about this episode was the
> inescapable REALITY of mental illness. Let me tell you what real is -- it's
> a horrible illness, an illness that is, imo, a fate worse than death. The
> mental illness that Buffy suffered in NA was just that type of illness and
> that is REAL. Have you ever known or worked with people who have a terrible
> mental illness? Good god -- I just couldn't get past the brutal reality of
> that. I could not stand to see something so dreadful done to Buffy. God,
> it was gruesome. I cannot view NA as a metaphor because the reality they
> dragged the episode into was too common, frightening, and ugly. THAT is
> what was so upsetting -- NOT the idea that we must question what is real --
> that's nothing. Some things ARE real and ARE horrifying and ARE, for some,
> inevitable and to curse Buffy and to despoil the Buffyverse with that was
> disgusting.
I like the show as much as they next guy but it seems you're taking
things *way* to seriously. "Despoil the Buffyverse"? I mean really...
nimue
Um, is having her body stolen by Faith akin to identity theft or something?
Cause having one's body stolen and taken over by another person generally
doesn't happen outside the Buffyverse. Well, maybe in the Xenaverse, but
that's it. Killing Angel was brutal as was finding Joyce dead on the
sofa -- horrible. However, I could stand those. I did say, however, that
mental illness of the type Buffy suffered in NA *is* a fate WORSE than
death. I couldn't bear to see that inflicted on Buffy. I also HATED the
way it mocked my suspended-disbelief in the Buffyverse. I can handle pain
and sorrow within the boundaries of a consistent Buffyverse -- but when all
that is reduced to a hallucination by someone who is suffering an illness
that is a fate worse than death I just get angry. I felt like the writers
broke faith with all of us when they did that. I'll tell you, nothing will
kill your faith like mental illness.
>
> Joss has made it very clear that these emotional bombshells
> are the true horror of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
No. If I am to believe in a Buffyverse then I must believe in a Buffyverse
with all its attendant sorrows and joys. However, if you are telling me
that all we saw was nothing more, and meant to be nothing more, than a
product of the tormented and suffering mind of a young woman then it loses
all its magic, mystery, and (yes!) hope and becomes sordid and full of
despair.
>
> Diane
BTR1701
Diane Wilson <di...@firelily.com> wrote:
> In article <1hg6i1976qn9r9jq4...@4ax.com>, KenM47
> @ix.netcom.com says...
> > We really do not know why the TV Hemery High (was it?) burned down.
>
> Because it was full of vampires... errr, asbestos. In Buffy's own
> words, as told to Principal Flutie; she did it and she admitted
> it. WTTH.
>
> Or did you want the police report? One assumes that, with regard
> to vampires, the LA police were as "deeply stupid" as the police
> in Sunnydale.
No, I got the definite impression that the certain elements of the LAPD
were very knowledgeable about the supernatural.
John Briggs
>
> To butt in for a minute...
>
> Merrick dies in the movie, we don't know what happened to the TV
> version. Personally, I've never bought that Buffy having lost a
> watcher would not have been mentioned in FH&T. The movie is not canon
> for the show.
The Unaired Pilot isn't canon either, but:
GILES
I am a Watcher. A Watcher serves by finding the Slayer, leading her on her
path. It's my destiny to guide you.
BUFFY
Yeah, well the last guy they sent to guide me - you should see what happened
to him.
GILES
I know all about it.
--
John Briggs
BTR1701
> "curlyQlink" <paulf...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> "It's curious, but audiences seem to have come to expect realism even
> in the most fantastical of stories."
>
> You confuse expecting the storyteller to tell a story with expecting,
> paying for, an internal cohesiveness and continuity. In Buffy's case
> (unlike Run, Lola, Run where the alternate takes were the purpose of
> the exercise) we had 5 years of canon/continuity (yes, there were
> mistakes, but so few as to be a miracle). NA was, IMO and it looks
> like others, a betrayal of that continuity and the fans who had
> willingly suspended disbelief.
>
> I suggest reading Stephen King's thinly disguised lessons on writing
> fiction novelized as "Misery."
Or read King's non-disguised, non-fiction guide to writers "On
Writing..."
> I think the old campfire storytelling
> game he describes (when Annie doesn't buy the story of Misery's
> resurrection) was called "Didhe." In NA, Whedon/Noxon DidNot.
Yes, they were both cockadoodies for writing that episode... ;-)
BTR1701
KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Perhaps they did have that conversation but it wasn't pertinent to
whatever episode was going on at the time so it was never shown on
screen.
There would have to be dozens and dozens of conversations between Buffy
and Giles and Buffy and her friends that happened off screen. We can't
have seen the sum total of all their interactions with each other.
BTR1701
alphakitten <alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
> To butt in for a minute...
>
> Merrick dies in the movie, we don't know what happened to the TV
> version. Personally, I've never bought that Buffy having lost a watcher
> would not have been mentioned in FH&T. The movie is not canon for the show.
Good point. I've always assumed he had to have died somehow. Not because
of the movie but because I can't think of any other reason Buffy would
have been Watcherless when she showed up in Sunnydale. When they fired
Giles, the Council provided a replacement. If Merrick had been fired,
you'd think they'd have sent another to replace him in L.A. On the other
hand, if he died, it might be a while before the Council found out about
it, explaining why she didn't have a Watcher until she got to Sunnydale.
But you're right in that it would seem logical that when Faith was
reeling over the loss of her Watcher, Buffy would have given her a "I've
been there, I know how you feel..." speech.
On the other hand, Whedon and crew seem to have a penchant for having
the characters ignore the elephant in the room when it's convenient.
When they were discussing the First Evil's plan to wipe out the Slayer
line, Faith was mentioned all of once, and then only in passing. One
would think that as the only other active Slayer (as opposed to the
Potentials), Faith would have been a hot topic of conversation, indeed.
Such things just seem to be Mutant Enemy's "style".
BTR1701
KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> EGK <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 18:36:58 GMT, KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >
> >>"Holden Webster" <holdenw...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >>>That dialouge takes place in the regular Buffyverse. It's not part of
> >>>the demon-induced delusion. So Joyce fully believed that her daughter
> >>>was delusional and sent her to an institution, yet after she got out,
> >>>did nothing when Buffy started burning down school buildings and
> >>>getting into all sorts of other weird situations. That's neglect.
> >>
> >>Actually, it's bad writing indicative of all of S6 and S7, IMO.
> >>
> >>Your points are dead on, so to speak.
> >
> >It's an example of a show that starts to get weighed down by it's own
> >mythology. The X-Files was the classic example but BTVS couldn't avoid it
> >either. It happened a lot once they tried shoe-horning Spike in as a
> >regular. Various episodes offered a plethora of retcons.
>
> Spike! You bet.
>
> Goes hand in hand with all discussions of the decline of S6 and S7.
Raises hand in agreement. Spike is the cancer that eats away at the
Buffy universe. In later years, he spawned smaller tumors like Andrew.
Diane Wilson
@ix.netcom.com says...
And there was that precinct captain who knew a thing about zombies.
But overall, no, not so clueful.
Diane
Rowan Hawthorn
>
> No. If I am to believe in a Buffyverse then I must believe in a Buffyverse
> with all its attendant sorrows and joys. However, if you are telling me
> that all we saw was nothing more, and meant to be nothing more, than a
> product of the tormented and suffering mind of a young woman
Anyone who got that out of NA completely missed the point (thanks in
part to the Famous Final Scene, which did seem out of place.) The
*hospital* was the hallucination, where Buffy could *escape* the
accumulated sorrows and griefs of her real life. If she could have been
"cured" in her hallucination, she could have gone back to her
*imaginary* parents and spent the rest of her life (probably not long,
since she'd have been basically comatose) in a happy-fantasy dream world
- one which certainly *would* have been a product of the tormented and
suffering mind of a young woman. Instead, she chose to be strong and do
the difficult thing.
It's not one of my *favorite* episodes by a long shot, but still...
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
nimue
> nimue wrote:
>>
>> No. If I am to believe in a Buffyverse then I must believe in a
>> Buffyverse with all its attendant sorrows and joys. However, if you
>> are telling me that all we saw was nothing more, and meant to be
>> nothing more, than a product of the tormented and suffering mind of
>> a young woman
>
> Anyone who got that out of NA completely missed the point (thanks in
> part to the Famous Final Scene, which did seem out of place.) The
> *hospital* was the hallucination, where Buffy could *escape* the
> accumulated sorrows and griefs of her real life. If she could have
> been "cured" in her hallucination, she could have gone back to her
> *imaginary* parents and spent the rest of her life (probably not long,
> since she'd have been basically comatose) in a happy-fantasy dream
> world - one which certainly *would* have been a product of the
> tormented and suffering mind of a young woman. Instead, she chose to
> be strong and do the difficult thing.
*If* the hospital was the hallucination, I could (somewhat) deal with the
show. That, however, was by no means clear. I have only seen it once and
have tried to forget it, but if you would like to explain what I missed --
go ahead.
>
> It's not one of my *favorite* episodes by a long shot, but still...
--
alphakitten
What we saw was Buffy hallucinating on account of being poked by the
waxy looking demon. The hallucination provided her with the opportunity
to choose to be alive and herself again, which at that point in the
season was vitally important.
The last shot is just a tease. A cheap shot, maybe, but not genuinely
meant to undermine the 'verse. IMO, anyway...
~Angel
alphakitten
BTR1701 wrote:
> In article <43235223...@netscape.net>,
> alphakitten <alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>
>>To butt in for a minute...
>>
>>Merrick dies in the movie, we don't know what happened to the TV
>>version. Personally, I've never bought that Buffy having lost a watcher
>>would not have been mentioned in FH&T. The movie is not canon for the show.
>
>
> Good point. I've always assumed he had to have died somehow. Not because
> of the movie but because I can't think of any other reason Buffy would
> have been Watcherless when she showed up in Sunnydale. When they fired
> Giles, the Council provided a replacement. If Merrick had been fired,
> you'd think they'd have sent another to replace him in L.A. On the other
> hand, if he died, it might be a while before the Council found out about
> it, explaining why she didn't have a Watcher until she got to Sunnydale.
>
> But you're right in that it would seem logical that when Faith was
> reeling over the loss of her Watcher, Buffy would have given her a "I've
> been there, I know how you feel..." speech.
>
> On the other hand, Whedon and crew seem to have a penchant for having
> the characters ignore the elephant in the room when it's convenient.
True. It always bugged me that no one told Faith about Ted after she
killed the mayor's aide. Even though that story had a very different
ending, the fact that Buffy had essentially done the same thing might
have been beneficial to her. The fact that Ted turned out to be a robot,
doesn't change the fact that Buffy *thought* he was a man when she
accidentally "killed" him.
~Angel
him...@animail.net
Holden Webster wrote:
>
> "She knew her daughter was troubled, often in trouble, and probably
> fighting physically."
>
> Then she should have done something. Let's say that the fanwank that
> Buffy was institutionalized *after* burning down her high school gym is
> true. Suppose that your daughter had to be institutionalized for severe
> delusions at one point. Then, a year late, she's coming home with blood
> in her clothes, staying out really late at night, and is constantly in
> trouble at school. Are you telling me that it wouldn't even occur to
> you that those things might be connected to her delusions? The
> possibility wouldn't even cross your mind?
Why? All this is perfectly within the parameters of adolescence. And
while Joyce didn't comment directly (except maybe off screen) on the
"delusions," she may well have had them in mind when she talked to Hank
about her Buffy worries: "how did she seem?" He didn't need a direct
reference; he knew what she meant. And what good would it have done if
she had thought the problems were connected to Buffy's delusions
instead of to wild behavior and unreasonable secrecy? She would be
wrong either way.
>
> Maybe Joyce might not want to have Buffy committed again, but you can't
> tell me that she wouldn't think her seeing a therapist at the very
> least would be a good idea. For Joyce to never even mention it really
> does paint her as a terrible, uncaring mother.
Oh, come now. I know some parents drag their kids off to professionals
at the drop of a hormone, but others don't. They think dramatizing
what may be a minor or temporary problem this way will make it worse,
and from what I've seen, a lot of the time they're right. It's a rough
call to make, and I'd hesitate to call anyone a terrible, uncaring
mother for choosing wrong; I'm not even sure how you'd figure out it
was wrong. Taking a kid in because they're burning buildings and
screaming about seeing vampires is one thing. But Buffy wasn't doing
that in Sunnydale; she seemed to be much better. She had nice friends
(Joyce did like Xander and Willow), she spent a lot of time at school
in the library, and the main trouble seemed to be sex with an older
college guy. Difficult, but hardly evidence of another psychotic
break.
Buffy did get sent to a school counselor at one point; he died.
himiko
Don Sample
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Except for a particular captain who was raising dead cops as zombies,
what gave you that idea? When Kate started poking her nose into the
supernatural cases, everyone on the police force treated her like they
thought she was nuts. At no point was she quietly taken aside by anyone
and told "yeah, we know about this stuff, but we're trying to keep it
low profile."
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Don Sample
"nimue" <cup_o...@yahoo.com> wrote:
If you believe that Sunnydale was a figment of Buffy's imagination, then
you also have to believe that all the while she was dreaming it up, she
was also dreaming up all the adventures that Angel and Co were having in
L.A.
him...@animail.net
Diane Wilson wrote:
> > No, I got the definite impression that the certain elements of the LAPD
> > were very knowledgeable about the supernatural.
> >
> Not enough of them to prevent Kate from being exiled to Siberia.
Or maybe that's why she was exiled. She wasn't high ranking or corrupt
enough to be privy to the discussions about the LAPD's connection with
W&H (we didn't find out until S5, although we should have guessed) and
they resented her meddling...so they dumped her in the cellar and made
sure she was labeled a nut case.
himiko
Rowan Hawthorn
> Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
>
>>nimue wrote:
>>
>>>No. If I am to believe in a Buffyverse then I must believe in a
>>>Buffyverse with all its attendant sorrows and joys. However, if you
>>>are telling me that all we saw was nothing more, and meant to be
>>>nothing more, than a product of the tormented and suffering mind of
>>>a young woman
>>
>>Anyone who got that out of NA completely missed the point (thanks in
>>part to the Famous Final Scene, which did seem out of place.) The
>>*hospital* was the hallucination, where Buffy could *escape* the
>>accumulated sorrows and griefs of her real life. If she could have
>>been "cured" in her hallucination, she could have gone back to her
>>*imaginary* parents and spent the rest of her life (probably not long,
>>since she'd have been basically comatose) in a happy-fantasy dream
>>world - one which certainly *would* have been a product of the
>>tormented and suffering mind of a young woman. Instead, she chose to
>>be strong and do the difficult thing.
>
>
> *If* the hospital was the hallucination, I could (somewhat) deal with the
> show. That, however, was by no means clear. I have only seen it once and
> have tried to forget it, but if you would like to explain what I missed --
> go ahead.
>
Beyond the framing, which begins with the setup of Buffy being stung by
the Glark... Glak - oh, hell, the demon thingy - and proceeds to follow
Buffy as she gets more and more under the influence of the demon's
venom, here's a couple of things:
1) Probably the major "tell" is the fact that there are several scenes
which involve the Scoobies' activity with Buffy nowhere around - IOW,
they are functioning independently of Buffy. Now, granted, that could
happen in a dream, your dream characters don't have to include you in
their activities, BUT: Within the mental institution, **nothing happens
outside of Buffy's presence.** We don't see Joyce and Hank talking to
the doctor alone; instead, they're in the doctor's office talking to him
about Buffy's "undifferentiated type of schizophrenia," while their
daughter - who is comatose one moment, violently paranoid the next -
**sits right there between them listening.** We don't see *any*
characters functioning in the hospital world outside of Buffy's direct
presence.
2) The doctor seems surprised that Buffy is lucid; yet he knows all
about the Trio. But Buffy herself only found out about them a few weeks
before. Where did the doctor get all these details, if Buffy has been
in such a state that everyone is startled when she actually rouses
enough to respond to their questions?
3) The final scene was certainly a screwy way to end the episode, and I
wish they'd been a little more clear, but remember that, at that point,
*Buffy has not yet had the antidote.* She's still hallucinating, but
she's holding herself together by sheer willpower. She's giving up the
warm, comfortable fantasy that she *could* have given way to - the
fantasy that she could go back to being a "Normal Girl" with a normal
life - for the harsh reality that she is what she is, and she can't
change that. Dream Joyce gave her the strength to do that:
JOYCE: Buffy! Buffy, fight it. You’re too good to give in. You can beat
this thing. Be strong, baby, okay? I know you’re afraid. I know the
world feels like a hard place sometimes but you’ve got people who love
you. Your dad and I, we have all the faith in the world in you. We’ll
always be with you. You’ve got a world of strength in your heart. I know
you do. You just have to find it again. Believe in yourself.
Mark Jones
> Um, is having her body stolen by Faith akin to identity theft or
> something? Cause having one's body stolen and taken over by another
> person generally doesn't happen outside the Buffyverse. Well, maybe in
> the Xenaverse, but that's it.
And the ST:TOSverse, and the ST:TNGverse and the DS9verse and the
Voyager-verse. And the SG-1verse. And the Quantum Leap-verse, and
Farscape-verse and....
But I take your point. It doesn't happen in the _real_ world.
> Killing Angel was brutal as was finding
> Joyce dead on the sofa -- horrible. However, I could stand those. I
> did say, however, that mental illness of the type Buffy suffered in NA
> *is* a fate WORSE than death. I couldn't bear to see that inflicted on
> Buffy. I also HATED the way it mocked my suspended-disbelief in the
> Buffyverse.
Yeah, nothing warms the cockles of a fan's heart like having his trust in
the storytellers mocked by the same storytellers whose mortgage payments
we've made possible by taking their work seriously enough to watch it
consistently.
> I felt like the writers broke faith with all of us when
> they did that.
They did.
drifter
/snip/
> 2) The doctor seems surprised that Buffy is lucid; yet he knows all
> about the Trio. But Buffy herself only found out about them a few
> weeks before. Where did the doctor get all these details, if Buffy
> has been in such a state that everyone is startled when she actually
> rouses enough to respond to their questions?
Seems to me I recall that the doctor mentioned a brief span of
lucidity that was supposed to overlap the time that Buffy was dead;
yet she didn't remember being in a hospital, she remembered being
in heaven.
> 3) The final scene was certainly a screwy way to end the episode, and
> I wish they'd been a little more clear, but remember that, at that
> point, *Buffy has not yet had the antidote.*
To me, this is the major tell. We don't *ever* see a scene happening
in the hospital between the two checkmarks of Buffy being stung by
the demon, and her taking of the antidote.
BTW, I'm firmly in the "It was a great episode, one of my favorites"
camp. This despite Spike and Dawn acting like uncompassionate
jackasses. Maybe they didn't understand that she was POISONED.
--
Kel
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
Rowan Hawthorn
> Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
>
> /snip/
>
>
>>2) The doctor seems surprised that Buffy is lucid; yet he knows all
>>about the Trio. But Buffy herself only found out about them a few
>>weeks before. Where did the doctor get all these details, if Buffy
>>has been in such a state that everyone is startled when she actually
>>rouses enough to respond to their questions?
>
>
> Seems to me I recall that the doctor mentioned a brief span of
> lucidity that was supposed to overlap the time that Buffy was dead;
> yet she didn't remember being in a hospital, she remembered being
> in heaven.
Yes.
BUFFY: My friends.
DOCTOR: That’s right. Last summer when you had a momentary
awakening, it was them that pulled you back in.
That was quite some time *before* Buffy discovered the Trio. If Buffy
had not had an "awakening" since then, **how did the doctor know about
them?**
>
> BTW, I'm firmly in the "It was a great episode, one of my favorites"
> camp. This despite Spike and Dawn acting like uncompassionate
> jackasses. Maybe they didn't understand that she was POISONED.
>
From Dawn's POV, I can understand her feelings, though; look what she'd
gone through, discovering that she wasn't "real," just an artificially
created addition to the Summers home, even though she *remembered*
herself as part of the family. Thinking that Buffy would prefer being
stuck in a dream world where she didn't exist had to hurt, and I don't
know too many teens who *would* handle that kind of hurt very well.
John Briggs
> "nimue" <cup_o...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Um, is having her body stolen by Faith akin to identity theft or
>> something? Cause having one's body stolen and taken over by another
>> person generally doesn't happen outside the Buffyverse. Well, maybe
>> in the Xenaverse, but that's it.
>
> And the ST:TOSverse, and the ST:TNGverse and the DS9verse and the
> Voyager-verse. And the SG-1verse. And the Quantum Leap-verse, and
> Farscape-verse and....
Even in "The Avengers".
--
John Briggs
alphakitten
And the fact that no AtS adventures are mentioned when the doctor is
recapping her delusions is a fairly substantial clue that the hospital
is the hallucination. They aren't mentioned, because she didn't know
about most of them, she wasn't there.
~Angel
alphakitten
Agreed. When she says "it's your ideal reality, and I'm not even a part
of it", my heart broke a little for her. And I wasn't overly sympathetic
towards her in S6.
I agree with the people who are annoyed by the asylum retcon.
"Back when I saw my first vampires...I got so scared. I told my parents
... and they completely freaked out."
I don't see how you can look back on eps like Witch & Bad Eggs, where
Buffy made comments about vampires and slaying to Joyce, only for Joyce
to stare at her blankly, without Joyce coming off as the
Dumbest/Flakiest Person Ever.
I also have a problem with the basement scene. I don't buy Willow
not using magic to save herself & her friends. Having her knocked
unconcious before she'd have a chance to react is asking too much?
But aside from that, I really love the episode. One of the greats of the
season (and there were several great eps in S6, even though there were
also a lot of appalling ones).
~Angel
BTR1701
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
The fact that the prosecution and defense attorneys were routinely using
spells to influence trial outcomes was a big clue.
Rowan Hawthorn
>
>
> Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
>
>>
>> From Dawn's POV, I can understand her feelings, though; look what
>> she'd gone through, discovering that she wasn't "real," just an
>> artificially created addition to the Summers home, even though she
>> *remembered* herself as part of the family. Thinking that Buffy would
>> prefer being stuck in a dream world where she didn't exist had to
>> hurt, and I don't know too many teens who *would* handle that kind of
>> hurt very well.
>
>
> Agreed. When she says "it's your ideal reality, and I'm not even a part
> of it", my heart broke a little for her. And I wasn't overly sympathetic
> towards her in S6.
>
> I agree with the people who are annoyed by the asylum retcon.
>
> "Back when I saw my first vampires...I got so scared. I told my parents
> ... and they completely freaked out."
>
> I don't see how you can look back on eps like Witch & Bad Eggs, where
> Buffy made comments about vampires and slaying to Joyce, only for Joyce
> to stare at her blankly, without Joyce coming off as the
> Dumbest/Flakiest Person Ever.
Even at the time, Joyce seemed to me to be a pretty good ways up de Nile...
>
> I also have a problem with the basement scene. I don't buy Willow
> not using magic to save herself & her friends. Having her knocked
> unconcious before she'd have a chance to react is asking too much?
She likely *was,* offscreen. Remember, we don't really see what
happened. She walks into the kitchen with Buffy, the scene cuts away to
Xander entrance, and the next time we see Willow, she's lying in the
basement tied up with tape over her mouth. Doubt she went without
*some* struggle, though physically she'd be no match for Buffy.
Carlos Moreno
*sigh* This confirms my theory...
Given *any* episode, no matter how unbelievably brilliant it is,
or no matter how unbelievably bad, there will always be at least
one person that thinks is the best episode of the series, AND at
least one person that thinks it is the worst episode of the
series.
After reading this newsgroup for more than a year, I thought
"Normal Again" was sort of the exception, and was *finally*
that episode that shows up on *EVERY* top-10 favourite episodes
of *every single BtVS fan* (at least the sane ones ;-)). Even
the people I've seen that most profoundly hate S6 with the
intensity equivalent to a million Suns burning together, even
*those* people typically list "Normal Again" in their list of
top-10 best episodes of the series.
I understand all the reasons you present... I do. But sorry,
they work only in theory. This episode is so unbelievably
brilliant that thank God there's Hush and Restless and The
Body and Once More with Feeling, because otherwise I would
have thought that I was living in a world of fiction when
seeing that episode (the fact that I had seen already those
other unbelievably brilliant episodes made me realize that
no, I hadn't lost my mind, and "Normal Again" was just another
brilliant episode of the most brilliant show ever to air on TV.
This episode somewhat has the same touch as Once More with
Feeling -- you know, a musical that is not a musical (in
a "musical", the music is part of the artistic way of telling
a story -- the music does not exist in the story, nor the
characters are aware that there's any music or that they're
singing).
In "Normal Again", the ambiguity of "what is *really* reality"
is really fake (yeah, I know that Nimue is going to give me a
C- or D for the half-dozen "reals" in a single phrase ;-)) --
they're not telling us that we should doubt or undermine the
"reality of the fiction" that is the Buffyverse; they're
simply showing us one of the big/best numbers that the trio
did to her, and the hallucination just made sense -- it made
sense for her (a superhero is something really out of the
ordinary -- so, it only makes sense that a delusional superhero
would have delusions about thinking that his/her whole life is
a delusion).
It just so happens that the trick works nicely and matches
perfectly with having the audience distracted thinking that
the scriptwriter is trying to tell us that there is ambiguity
about what is reality in the show.
I do disagree with the comparison to Run Lola Run -- Anyone
with me in thinking that a good comparison with movies would
be with Unbreakable? :-) (anyone with me in thinking that
Unbreakable is really a masterpiece, and possibly in the list
of top-10 most overlooked/underrated movies ever?)
Carlos
--
Carlos Moreno
> Normal Again is the worst BtVS episode EVER and is also one of the worst
> episodes EVER to air on television.
*Sniff* ... BUUUAAAAHHHHH!!!! :_(
Why, Nimue, why do you do this to me? Why do you torture me? :-(
I have always been convinced that you are among the sane persons
in this newsgroup... And now, after a year of such firm conviction,
now you tell me this?!! :-(
*snifff*...
Carlos
--
Eric Hunter
> Diane Wilson wrote:
>> As Angel told Faith, it's all about choices. Buffy has to choose
>> what matters to her. And she does choose, rather than letting the
>> choice be made for her.
>>
>> Outstanding episode. Far from being a monster-of-the-week
>> episode, it's at the core of what season 6 is about. It's also
>> the turning point where Buffy starts to come back to the world.
>
> Metaphorically, yes. Literally, though, it presented us with an
> unpalatable and upsetting idea. Obviously, the Buffyverse is
> fantasy, blah, blah, blah, but we have accepted it as a reality and
> to have that yanked away -- no. Fuck the writers of that episode.
Umm, you're missing the fact that the Trio summoned a
demon which poisoned Buffy, causing her to hallucinate
that she was in a mental institution. The hallucination
has extra resonance for us because it is "the real world",
but it is clearly a hallucination within the context of the
episode. The final scene is all about Buffy accepting
her life, and her role as the Slayer, even though there
was a "safe and happy" escape presented to her. She
denied the hallucination through force of will, without
ever taking the antidote, so of course the hallucination
would continue.
Eric.
--
Rowan Hawthorn
>
> *sigh* This confirms my theory...
>
> Given *any* episode, no matter how unbelievably brilliant it is,
> or no matter how unbelievably bad, there will always be at least
> one person that thinks is the best episode of the series, AND at
> least one person that thinks it is the worst episode of the
> series.
>
Yup.
> After reading this newsgroup for more than a year, I thought
> "Normal Again" was sort of the exception, and was *finally*
> that episode that shows up on *EVERY* top-10 favourite episodes
> of *every single BtVS fan* (at least the sane ones ;-)).
Nope, sorry. I'm not a Season 6 hater by any means, but "Normal Again"
doesn't make it into my Top 10 favorites - probably not my Top 20. Too
depressing on one level or another. Maybe Top 30 for me...
alphakitten
Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
> alphakitten wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> From Dawn's POV, I can understand her feelings, though; look what
>>> she'd gone through, discovering that she wasn't "real," just an
>>> artificially created addition to the Summers home, even though she
>>> *remembered* herself as part of the family. Thinking that Buffy
>>> would prefer being stuck in a dream world where she didn't exist had
>>> to hurt, and I don't know too many teens who *would* handle that kind
>>> of hurt very well.
>>
>>
>>
>> Agreed. When she says "it's your ideal reality, and I'm not even a
>> part of it", my heart broke a little for her. And I wasn't overly
>> sympathetic towards her in S6.
>>
>> I agree with the people who are annoyed by the asylum retcon.
>>
>> "Back when I saw my first vampires...I got so scared. I told my
>> parents ... and they completely freaked out."
>>
>> I don't see how you can look back on eps like Witch & Bad Eggs, where
>> Buffy made comments about vampires and slaying to Joyce, only for
>> Joyce to stare at her blankly, without Joyce coming off as the
>> Dumbest/Flakiest Person Ever.
>
>
> Even at the time, Joyce seemed to me to be a pretty good ways up de Nile...
>
>>
Absolutley, but there's being in denial and then there's being mentally
deficient. After the retcon, the denial which worked okay before starts
verging on nuts.
>> I also have a problem with the basement scene. I don't buy Willow
>> not using magic to save herself & her friends. Having her knocked
>> unconcious before she'd have a chance to react is asking too much?
>
>
> She likely *was,* offscreen. Remember, we don't really see what
> happened. She walks into the kitchen with Buffy, the scene cuts away to
> Xander entrance, and the next time we see Willow, she's lying in the
> basement tied up with tape over her mouth. Doubt she went without
> *some* struggle, though physically she'd be no match for Buffy.
>
I mean the scene in the basement when Buffy releases the demon. Willow
is tied up, but fully concious, about to watch her friends and herself
get killed.
~Angel
nimue
I love you, Carlos -- LOVE YOU! I DO! I just hate Normal Again! Can you,
oh can you, tell the difference? Can I not (sob) love you and hate Normal
Again?????
>
> Carlos
Shuggie
expresses it well so why re-invent the wheel)
The clever thing about Normal Again, IMO, is that they end on the asylum
not Sunnydale.
In the episode Buffy experiences two different contradictory worlds with
no real way to objectively decide which one is "real".
This type of story is not new - Star Trek as well as various movies have
done it many times before. A convention has evolved for this type of
story that makes us interpret those final shots as meaning that the
asylum is the real world. But we know that Buffy is an ongoing show set
in Sunnydale not the asylum.
So like Buffy, we're forced into asking ourselves which is real. And
like Buffy we have no objective way of deciding which is real.
And in the end, just like Buffy, we choose to believe/live in the world
we prefer rather than the one we necessarily think is real.
So I think Normal Again is a very clever metaphor for the relationship
between viewer and TV show, and willing suspension of disbelief.
It may even be about fan reaction/criticism.
When NA first aired there was already a pretty significant fan backlash
against what many saw as the weakest season ever. One of the things I've
observed happen, especially in ATBVS, is a growing unwillingness to
suspend disbelief. Fans who were no longer enjoying the show started to
become more aware of perceived character inconsistencies, plot holes and
other problems - many of which are really non-essential to the story.
The more they focussed on these problems the less they enjoyed the
story. The less they enjoyed the story the less 'goodwill' they felt,
the more likely they were to nitpick. A vicious circle.
I like to think that Normal Again is an appeal to suspend disbelief
again. Buffy gets to be a hero, gets to live in Sunnydale with all her
friends and fight monsters and do and see amazing things, because she
chooses to believe (suspends disbelief in the fact) that Sunnydale is
real.
----
As for the Joyce thing, I think it's the same underlying issue -
suspension of disbelief applies to how plausible a character's actions
are as much as whether demons and vampires exist. I do think that people
have different threshholds for that but I'm willing to trade a little
plausibility for a good story. For example, in S2 we have the whole
'Vengeance is a living thing' - which Joss himself pretty much admits is
a kludge. It's stupid that the Kalderash would place a curse on Angelus
that would turn him back into a killer if he experienced happiness. The
kludge is that they 'serve vengeance like its some irrational god'. Next
to this implausibility Joyce's uneven parenting implied by Normal Again
is mild.
BUT... I accept the kludge because of what it buys us - namely the whole
S2 Angelus arc - which is some of the best Buffy we've ever seen.
Now in the case of NA, Buffy having been in an institution doesn't buy
us as much - merely that she might have reason to believe herself to
still be there - but it's still a good enough episode for me to accept
it.
But if you hate it you hate it.
--
Shuggie
Shuggie
...
> I do not think using a schizophrenic-type illness to explore the nature of
> reality was a good or appropriate choice.
...
> Let me tell you what real is -- it's
> a horrible illness, an illness that is, imo, a fate worse than death.
I have a friend who was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia a few
years ago. It *is* a horrible disease and what happened to J. was very
scary. However, once he was diagnosed and on the proper meds and therapy
his quality of life vastly improved. I don't think his life is a bed of
roses and he's not back to where he was before he became ill either -
but he doesn't wish himself dead. So I can't agree it's a fate worse
than death.
Where there's life there's hope you know?
--
Shuggie
nimue
True -- I remember that saying from my Anne of Green Gables books (Anne of
the Island, to be exact). I am glad medication has helped your friend, but
the sad truth is, it just doesn't help everybody. For those it doesn't
help, well, I do think it is a fate worse than death.
drifter
> *sigh* This confirms my theory...
>
> Given *any* episode, no matter how unbelievably brilliant it is,
> or no matter how unbelievably bad, there will always be at least
> one person that thinks is the best episode of the series, AND at
> least one person that thinks it is the worst episode of the
> series.
I always liked "Beer Bad." Does that count?
--
Kel
"Buffy strong!"
Rowan Hawthorn
>
>
> Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Even at the time, Joyce seemed to me to be a pretty good ways up de
>> Nile...
>>
>
>
> Absolutley, but there's being in denial and then there's being mentally
> deficient. After the retcon, the denial which worked okay before starts
> verging on nuts.
>
I think, in a manner of speaking, Joyce *was* a little nuts. She
appeared incapable of accepting what Buffy was and what her life was
about *even when presented with things that should have backed Buffy*,
until the point at which she was faced with enough evidence that she
*couldn't* lie to herself any longer.
>
>
>>> I also have a problem with the basement scene. I don't buy Willow
>>> not using magic to save herself & her friends. Having her knocked
>>> unconcious before she'd have a chance to react is asking too much?
>>
>>
>>
>> She likely *was,* offscreen. Remember, we don't really see what
>> happened. She walks into the kitchen with Buffy, the scene cuts away
>> to Xander entrance, and the next time we see Willow, she's lying in
>> the basement tied up with tape over her mouth. Doubt she went without
>> *some* struggle, though physically she'd be no match for Buffy.
>>
>
>
>
> I mean the scene in the basement when Buffy releases the demon. Willow
> is tied up, but fully concious, about to watch her friends and herself
> get killed.
>
Right, but during that time, she's also gagged. I don't *think* we'd
ever seen Willow at this point ever do even a minor spell without using
words or gestures or both, had we?
Joe Finn
>
>
> I'm sorry, it just makes Joyce a terrible parent. Without that
> revelation, I could go with the idea that Joyce just thinks Buffy is a
> troubled teenager who's acting out. I could buy into the idea that the
> hellmouth is affecting her judgment like it affects so many others in
> town. I could roll with the notion that Joyce is just confused and
> unsure of how to deal with her daughter.
>
> But if I take "Normal Again" as canon, I have to view Joyce as just a
> terribly unattentive and uncaring mother. OR, I have to view the whole
> show as Buffy's delusion. Either way, I feel like I lose.
>
When Joyce finally found out that Buffy was the slayer, she got drunk
had tea with a vampire and told Buffy "if you walk out that door don't
come back."
Another episode Joyce said "the books said I should get used to the word
'no'."
Joyce doesn't strike me as an expert in troubled kids.
Joe
Rowan Hawthorn
Yeah, pretty much. (So did I, by the way. It wasn't on the top echelon
of episodes, story-wise - it wasn't deep, no big world-shaking
revelations. But it *was* funny as hell...)
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
only to five mudhead
arf meow arf - dogs and cats living together
the erisian constancy - though chaos is transformed
but never lost to sea - grey ordered ranks are swarmed
Carlos Moreno
Of course not. Beer Bad is a good episode -- not extraordinary,
just good.
Carlos
--
Carlos Moreno
> Carlos Moreno wrote:
>
>>nimue wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Normal Again is the worst BtVS episode EVER and is also one of the
>>>worst episodes EVER to air on television.
>>
>>*Sniff* ... BUUUAAAAHHHHH!!!! :_(
>>
>>Why, Nimue, why do you do this to me? Why do you torture me? :-(
>>
>>I have always been convinced that you are among the sane persons
>>in this newsgroup... And now, after a year of such firm conviction,
>>now you tell me this?!! :-(
>>
>>*snifff*...
>
>
> I love you, Carlos -- LOVE YOU! I DO! I just hate Normal Again! Can you,
> oh can you, tell the difference?
Well, ok, when you put it like that, it seems easy... (then again,
I always knew you were a hell of a great teacher! ;-))
> Can I not (sob) love you and hate Normal
> Again?????
Well, ok... ok... (ok, but WHY?!!! :-(( )
;-)
Carlos
--
KenM47
jil...@hotmail.com
Since it's been established that there are alternate realities, why not
one where Buffy is not the Slayer but is a poor insane girl in an
asylum? What if her schizophrenia tapped her into "this" reality's
Buffy? When Buffy died, she was released. When Willow and Co.
resurrected Buffy, the other one was returned to her state. So we've
got the sane Buffy here, and the insane Buffy in another world whose
mind is living in Buffy's.
Too many Buffys in that paragraph.
Dale Ratner
> Holden Webster wrote:
>
> <snippage of fine rant on this particular plot line>
>
>>Maybe it's an irrational anger on my part, but *man* does it piss me
>>off.
>
>
> We all have our quirks on this sort of thing. This doesn't happen to
> be one of mine...my big one is the amnesia plot line, although I liked
> Tabula Rasa so go figure. As for NA, meh. Not the best, not the
> worst.
>
I personally hate what I call "idiot plotting" This is when the story
advances because one or more of the characters is a completly dense idiot.
Charles Lincoln
news:1126448260....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
fact.....
nimue
And that, for the reasons I gave before in this thread, is an idea I HATE
HATE HATE.
peachy ashie passion
I think you just described every episode of I Love Lucy.
Don Sample
And Three's Company, and most other sit-coms. One of the reasons why I
can't stand any of them.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
BTR1701
Dale Ratner <daler...@gmail.com> wrote:
"Lost" has a lot of this. The characters aren't really idiots but they
refuse to share information with each other for some bizarre reason.
Half the problems the castaways on that island face could be avoided or
resolved if the characters would just talk to each other and behave like
people really would behave in a similar situation.
Dale Ratner
You know, what. The same thing could be said about Connor in Season 4
of Angel. The season could have been ten or so episodes shorter if it
was not for Connor refusing to believe what the other characters believed.
Dale
Card-carrying Connor disliker
Carlos Moreno
>>Or did you want the police report? One assumes that, with regard
>>to vampires, the LA police were as "deeply stupid" as the police
>>in Sunnydale.
>
> No, I got the definite impression that the certain elements of the LAPD
> were very knowledgeable about the supernatural.
Well, they knew about Scully and Mulder... Oh, wait, no, not even
that! They merely knew that Scully was the chick -- *Kate* knew that
Mulder is the believer.
But ok, you say that *certain elements* of the LAPD. So, that makes
your statement correct -- *in general*, though, I agree with Diane;
they were pretty clueless.
Carlos
--
Carlos Moreno
>>>No, I got the definite impression that the certain elements of the LAPD
>>>were very knowledgeable about the supernatural.
>>
>>Except for a particular captain who was raising dead cops as zombies,
>>what gave you that idea? When Kate started poking her nose into the
>>supernatural cases, everyone on the police force treated her like they
>>thought she was nuts. At no point was she quietly taken aside by anyone
>>and told "yeah, we know about this stuff, but we're trying to keep it
>>low profile."
>
> The fact that the prosecution and defense attorneys were routinely using
> spells to influence trial outcomes was a big clue.
???? What show are we talking about??
Besides Wolfram & Hart -- which had nothing to do with LAPD, and I
don't recall any evidence that people from the LAPD were aware of
W&H's associations with the supernatural -- who was doing spells?
I don't recall any prosecution attorneys using spells.
Carlos
--
BTR1701
Carlos Moreno <moreno_at_mo...@xx.xxx> wrote:
From the ANGEL episode "Conviction":
The door to Angel's office opens and CORBIN FRIES enters, followed by
Harmony and Fries's lawyer, DESMOND KEEL. Angel moves to greet them.
ANGEL
Mr. Fries.
HARMONY
Mr. Fries, this is Angel.
WESLEY
(to Fries)
I've been bringing him up to speed on your case.
FRIES
(dry)
Terrific.
Keel offers his hand to Angel who shakes it.
KEEL
Desmond Keel.
WESLEY
(to Angel)
One of ours.
ANGEL
Nice to meet you. I've heard... things.
HARMONY
Would anybody like coffee?
FRIES
Oh, yeah. Let's all chit-chat and have tea and crumpets, 'cause I've got
so much time. Here's the skinny. Tomorrow the DA puts my tit in a
wringer for good and all and that does not stand with me. (re: Keel)
Butt-munch here, he got his law degree at dog training school and the
prosecution has everything they've ever dreamed of.
ANGEL
Because you're guilty.
FRIES
Of course I'm guilty. What the hell are you changing the subject for?
The point is, when Holland Manners was running things, this would have
never got to trial. Now I bring a lot of money into this firm-- more
than most-- and I don't do that so I can be handed over to the frickin'
law. (points at Angel) You... gotta get me off.
ANGEL
It's strange, my lack of incentive.
FRIES
You think I give a ferret's anus about your new regime here? Yeah, I
know who you are and I care to the sum of zero. You're my lawyers and if
you don't do every last thing to keep me out of jail, you will regret it.
KEEL
Well, we can't dance around this one. We're not in a position to have
anyone killed. (off Angel's look) Not that we would. And the jury's
tamper-proof. Literally. I think one of the DA's shamans has conjured a
mystical shield around them.
WESLEY
So this one has to be won on the merits of the case.
Captain Infinity
>> I personally hate what I call "idiot plotting" This is when the story
>> advances because one or more of the characters is a completly dense idiot.
>
>
> I think you just described every episode of I Love Lucy.
I see your I Love Lucy and raise you Three's Company.
**
Captain Infinity
Mark Jones
> > I personally hate what I call "idiot plotting" This is when the story
> > advances because one or more of the characters is a completly dense
> > idiot.
>
> "Lost" has a lot of this. The characters aren't really idiots but they
> refuse to share information with each other for some bizarre reason.
> Half the problems the castaways on that island face could be avoided or
> resolved if the characters would just talk to each other and behave like
> people really would behave in a similar situation.
And even on the rare occasions when they _do_ share information, they seem
to succumb to some weird amnesia, and the information slips away again
anyhow.
Rocky Frisco
> Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
>
>>nimue wrote:
>>
>>>No. If I am to believe in a Buffyverse then I must believe in a
>>>Buffyverse with all its attendant sorrows and joys. However, if you
>>>are telling me that all we saw was nothing more, and meant to be
>>>nothing more, than a product of the tormented and suffering mind of
>>>a young woman
>>
>>Anyone who got that out of NA completely missed the point (thanks in
>>part to the Famous Final Scene, which did seem out of place.) The
>>*hospital* was the hallucination, where Buffy could *escape* the
>>accumulated sorrows and griefs of her real life. If she could have
>>been "cured" in her hallucination, she could have gone back to her
>>*imaginary* parents and spent the rest of her life (probably not long,
>>since she'd have been basically comatose) in a happy-fantasy dream
>>world - one which certainly *would* have been a product of the
>>tormented and suffering mind of a young woman. Instead, she chose to
>>be strong and do the difficult thing.
>
>
> *If* the hospital was the hallucination, I could (somewhat) deal with the
> show. That, however, was by no means clear. I have only seen it once and
> have tried to forget it, but if you would like to explain what I missed --
> go ahead.
>
>>It's not one of my *favorite* episodes by a long shot, but still...
That end scene indicated to me that the hospital was an alternative
universe rather than a hallucination. The Buffster was required to
choose between them. She made the more courageous choice.
-Rock http://www.rocky-frisco.com
--
Rocky Frisco's LIBERTY website: http://www.liberty-in-our-time.com/
The World's Best Daily News Service: http://www.rationalreview.com/
Rock onstage with JJ Cale and E. Clapton: http://tinyurl.com/3modw