Don't Turn Spike Evil (spoilers for CWDP)
Rose
seeing Munching Spike, I just hadda offer and alternative viewpoint. In case
ME is so desperate for better ratings at this point that they'd think Evil
Spike is the key to success and go that way. (I'm assuming at this point that
they are not planning at this time to go that way, but that could be a wrong
assumption.)
Evil is boring after awhile. You can only be evil for so long before it gets
old. You want Evil Munching Spike, you have videotapes. It's been done. Even
James Marsters can't come up with 16 more ways to say "Ya ha ha!" and bite
people. Back when Spike was evil, people were saying "Stake him or it makes him
look bumbling and Buffy look incompetent." Some of those same people long to
see Evil Spike back, but if he comes back, they'll be yelling Stake Him! again
I'll wager. I think they're as sick of Doormat Spike as I am. But getting
away from Doormat Spike by reverting him to Munching Spike is a copout.
If Spike must turn evil, I'd like him to lose William's soul first. It would be
nice to have one (1) soul not destroyed on this show.
It would also be nice if Spike were not a pathetic doormat. I'm naive enough
to think you can be un-evil without being a pathetic doormat. Laugh if you
must.
And that's my 2 cents. :)
Rose
OWSADON (One Woman Society Against Slander and Destruction of NeoSpike)
brian
good no soul Spike but like Soulfull Spike being good. It keeps things black
and white. ( I can't get it IRL so I want it on tv)
PaulK
Don't worry, it wasn't Spike. It was the devil, same as Cassie, Joyce,
Warren, and Psych-vamp. He's trying to undermine the Scoobies.
I noticed you gave tonight's episode a fairly low score on the ol'
weekly poll. That's cool, won't try to convince you to like it more. But
I'm wondering if you would have given it a higher rating if you realized
how well the writers were playing us while simultaneously showing how
Cassie and Dawn were being played? IHMO, a very well written ep.
-PaulK
TomTraubertsBlues
news:3DD21CBF...@nospam.com...
>
> Don't worry, it wasn't Spike. It was the devil, same as Cassie, Joyce,
> Warren, and Psych-vamp. He's trying to undermine the Scoobies.
>
> I noticed you gave tonight's episode a fairly low score on the ol'
> weekly poll. That's cool, won't try to convince you to like it more. But
> I'm wondering if you would have given it a higher rating if you realized
> how well the writers were playing us while simultaneously showing how
> Cassie and Dawn were being played? IHMO, a very well written ep.
>
> -PaulK
I think Rose is a very intelligent person who has had many great musings on
BTVS, and who used to enjoy the show, but I think she is so into Spike that
she is blinded to how good this show has been this season. I know I don't
really know her from a hole in the ground and she can set me straight if
need be. That's just how it comes across to me in her postings.
Mike
Ken
"Rose" <fyl...@aol.comspam> wrote in message
news:20021113024234...@mb-mo.aol.com...
It's fake. A clone. The First Evil. An android. A demon. Mind control.
Faulty chip. Lie. Smoke. Mirrors.
PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE!?!!
-- Ken from Chicago
P.S. The double whammy of Jonathan tho ... sheesh, didn't see BOTH happening
in one ep.
himiko
>
> If Spike must turn evil, I'd like him to lose William's soul first. It would be
> nice to have one (1) soul not destroyed on this show.
Hate to tell you this, Rose, but I think this has already happened to
poor Spikey. My theory is that he is possessed, probably by Morphy,
and has no control over what he does. So he has a new soul along with
all that guilt which would be rough enough; just ask Angel. But now,
in addition, he has the memory of who knows how many killings
committed while his new/old/restored soul could only look on in
horror.
It's just a theory, but it's about the cruelest outcome I can imagine,
and ME just loves to torture this character. It also fits in with
MorphyMayor's comment in Lessons: "Of course, you thought you'd be
your own man."
>
> It would also be nice if Spike were not a pathetic doormat. I'm naive enough
> to think you can be un-evil without being a pathetic doormat. Laugh if you
> must.
No laughing. But I don't see Spike as a pathetic doormat. I see him
as a pathetic looney...and I love him that way, although I agree it
can't continue for too long.
himiko
Chris Zabel
evil in the long run. By the rules of the fictional universe they've set up
it wouldn't make much sense(though that hasn't stopped writers from anything
before). I'm not quite sure how the short term will treat Spike, but I
think many signs this season point to a semi-happy Spuffy
relationship(though how long it might last is anyone's guess...could be a
moment or the rest of the show's life) in the end.
DonkaDonk
> seeing Munching Spike, I just hadda offer and alternative viewpoint. In
case
> ME is so desperate for better ratings at this point that they'd think Evil
> Spike is the key to success and go that way.
Because they couldn't just make Spike evil as part of the story, it has to
be for ratings?
CWDP was incredibly, incredibly well-done TV. It may not fly as well with
some of the long-term viewers who have developed attachments to particular
characters in particular manners over the years, but as someone who has come
relatively late to the party but ravenously consumed the series and has
fewer attachments I can easily say that's some of the best there is on any
channel, hands-down, and it seems to be carrying toward a culmination that
makes sense and is enthralling (far more so than "Will Bobby make it through
his illness?" or that ilk) even if it doesn't make character fans happy.
W Gemini
I am not sure Spike is "evil" now. But if he is, I would rather he has
a soul (if such thing exist). "Evil" ("good" too for that matter) is
boring because it doesn't have a soul and thus predictable. But what
if "Evil" got a soul?
Rose
>From: PaulK bl...@nospam.com
>Date: 11/13/2002 1:32 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <3DD21CBF...@nospam.com>
>
>
>Don't worry, it wasn't Spike. It was the devil, same as Cassie, Joyce,
>Warren, and Psych-vamp. He's trying to undermine the Scoobies.
>
>I noticed you gave tonight's episode a fairly low score on the ol'
>weekly poll. That's cool, won't try to convince you to like it more. But
>I'm wondering if you would have given it a higher rating if you realized
>how well the writers were playing us while simultaneously showing how
>Cassie and Dawn were being played? IHMO, a very well written ep.
>
spoilers
From the spoilers I've read, what happened was not Spike's fault, so that is
not the reason I gave the episode an average score. I simply thought the
episode was very flawed, although it also had some good bits.
Rose
I don't think I post in English anymore. Nobody gets my posts. ;)
I didn't say I think they are turning Spike evil. I even said that my guess is
that the current plan is for Spike NOT to turn evil. I posted what I did as an
opposing viewpoint to the many people here saying "Turn Spike Evil I like Evil
Spike!"
That's all, really.
Rose
>Date: 11/13/2002 5:26 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <c7902983.02111...@posting.google.com>
>
>fyl...@aol.comspam (Rose) wrote in message
>news:<20021113024234...@mb-mo.aol.com>...
>>
>> If Spike must turn evil, I'd like him to lose William's soul first. It
>would be
>> nice to have one (1) soul not destroyed on this show.
>
>Hate to tell you this, Rose, but I think this has already happened to
>poor Spikey. My theory is that he is possessed, probably by Morphy,
>and has no control over what he does. So he has a new soul along with
>all that guilt which would be rough enough; just ask Angel. But now,
>in addition, he has the memory of who knows how many killings
>committed while his new/old/restored soul could only look on in
>horror.
>
What I meant was, I would hope that if they decided to have Spike be willfully
evil, they'd have him lose his soul first so that William's soul isn't evil.
They ruined Xander, Giles, Buffy and Spike last year, I'd like them to leave
William alone.
Rose
>
>I am not sure Spike is "evil" now. But if he is, I would rather he has
>a soul (if such thing exist). "Evil" ("good" too for that matter) is
>boring because it doesn't have a soul and thus predictable. But what
>if "Evil" got a soul?
We saw that already, with Warren.
Rose
>
>Because they couldn't just make Spike evil as part of the story, it has to
>be for ratings?
Yes, they could. My guess, however, is that they don't plan to make him evil
at this time, and I hope the ng postings don't change their minds.
That's all.
>
>CWDP was incredibly, incredibly well-done TV.
Some of it was well done. IMO, the Dawn-haunted house bits were hokey and the
Willow/Cassie scenes dragged until the end.
Rose
> I think she is so into Spike that
>she is blinded to how good this show has been >this season.
I think the show has been okay this season, not terrible and not great.
If the BAPS board is any indication, last night's episode was very highly
regarded by many, many Spike fans. I just happen to be in the minority in
thinking it was only "okay".
I thought the Spike scenes were well done. My problem with the ep had to do
with the dullness (imo) of the Willow/Cassie scenes until the end, and the
hokiness of the Dawn/haunted house stuff.
Julie Carrigon
>
> >
> >CWDP was incredibly, incredibly well-done TV.
>
> Some of it was well done. IMO, the Dawn-haunted house bits were hokey and
the
> Willow/Cassie scenes dragged until the end.
>
> Rose
I thought the Dawn scenes dragged. She got way too much airtime yet again.
Yeah the Poltergeist stuff was nice, but it just seemed like it was 90
percent of the ep. They could have cut a few of her scenes and given us an
Anya and Xander scene or more Spike. I think that's really my big complaint
with the ep, way too much Dawn again.
Carrigon
--
http://www.mindspring.com/~carrigon/tips.html
Carrigon's Sims Tips, Tricks, Cheats
<(©¿©)> @>---
Carmikl
>
> Hey, with so many people jumping up and down and clapping their hands over
> seeing Munching Spike, I just hadda offer and alternative viewpoint. In case
> ME is so desperate for better ratings at this point that they'd think Evil
> Spike is the key to success and go that way. (I'm assuming at this point that
> they are not planning at this time to go that way, but that could be a wrong
> assumption.)
>
controlled by Morphy, but I doubt it's Spike. The irony might be that
Xander is Spike's alibi because they were both home watch TV.
Ben
TURN evil? When was he good? Did I miss that? Was it between that
time he tried to kill Buffy and then tried to rape her? Or maybe
sometime around when he thought his chip stopped working and tried to
kill that girl in the ally? hmmm...maybe I was in the bathroom. darn.
W Gemini
Actually, I disagree. Warren was a stupid kid. Cruel, but not cunning.
He wasted his soul completely. The closest thing actually would be the
Mayor. But I am hoping something different from Spike.
Rose
>
>TURN evil? When was he good? Did I miss that? Was it between that
>time he tried to kill Buffy and then tried to rape her?
Sigh. I should have been more anal retentive in my post, sorry.
I meant "post-soul Spike." Thank you for requesting the clarification.
Bobby Tuesday
>
> Evil is boring after awhile. You can only be evil for so long before it gets
> old. You want Evil Munching Spike, you have videotapes. It's been done. Even
> James Marsters can't come up with 16 more ways to say "Ya ha ha!" and bite
> people. Back when Spike was evil, people were saying "Stake him or it makes him
> look bumbling and Buffy look incompetent." Some of those same people long to
> see Evil Spike back, but if he comes back, they'll be yelling Stake Him! again
> I'll wager. I think they're as sick of Doormat Spike as I am. But getting
> away from Doormat Spike by reverting him to Munching Spike is a copout.
>
actually, i long to see evil spike back simply because i can yell
"stake him!" in fact, i hope buffy eventually does. or xander. that
would be nice. i have nothing against james marsters and if i want to
see spike i have videotapes. but i think he's overstayed his welcome.
-bobby
Growltiger
<3DD21CBF...@nospam.com>...
>
> Don't worry, it wasn't Spike. It was the devil, same as Cassie, Joyce,
> Warren, and Psych-vamp. He's trying to undermine the Scoobies.
>
I disagree with you, at least in part. Whatever it is, I think the
manifestation only appeared as Cassie, Warren, and probably Joyce. As
for Spike, who knows? He is certainly not telling us much of anything
since he started rooming with Xander. And I believe Holden was just
what he was: a risen vampire with a love for psychology and counseling.
Maybe Buffy will pick up some style points from him to carry into her
job at the high school.
--
Be seeing you,
Growltiger
Growltiger
article <20021113095640...@mb-fn.aol.com>...
>
> I don't think I post in English anymore. Nobody gets my posts. ;)
>
> I didn't say I think they are turning Spike evil. I even said that my guess is
> that the current plan is for Spike NOT to turn evil. I posted what I did as an
> opposing viewpoint to the many people here saying "Turn Spike Evil I like Evil
> Spike!"
>
> That's all, really.
>
Spike is evil. But he has a soul now and the weight of conscience may
make him into something that is good. Having a soul does not make him
good, but it gives him the capacity to do good, like Angel.
Rose
>Date: 11/13/2002 10:50 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <MPG.183c3ec5d...@netnews.attbi.com>
>
>Previously on alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer, fyl...@aol.comspam wrote in
>article <20021113095640...@mb-fn.aol.com>...
>>
>> I don't think I post in English anymore. Nobody gets my posts. ;)
>>
>> I didn't say I think they are turning Spike evil. I even said that my guess
>is
>> that the current plan is for Spike NOT to turn evil. I posted what I did
>as an
>> opposing viewpoint to the many people here saying "Turn Spike Evil I like
>Evil
>> Spike!"
>>
>> That's all, really.
>>
>
>Spike is evil.
Oh for Pete's sake. Fine, Spike is evil, always has been evil, even William
sitting in the drawing room was evil.
You know that what I meant was, going back to S2 behavior and filling the S2
role as so many here want him to do.
Why do I fucking bother.
TomTraubertsBlues
I can sorta go with you on the Willow scene, but the Dawn scene was great.
You really didn't think it was well-done and scary?
Mike
Rose
>
>I can sorta go with you on the Willow scene, but the Dawn scene was great.
>You really didn't think it was well-done and scary?
>
No, not at all. The scary part was Morph Cassie turning into that demon and
then flitting away. That freaked me out and even made me a little wigged, so
the ep gets fear points for that.
Zombie Elvis
and cats lived together. One voice cried out in the wilderness.
Growltiger <ty...@never.invalid> wrote in
<MPG.183c3ec5d...@netnews.attbi.com>:
Spike was evil when he was a soulless vampire. Then he got a soul and
he became more neutral, like Switzerland. Then he went insane and
became more like one of those third world dictatorships. I'm hoping he
turns out more like Germany -- ambitious and misunderstood.
--
"Welcome to the Hellmouth, were even outwear isn't
safe.
-- Xander Harris
Roberto Castillo
cast...@enteract.com
http://www.enteract.com/~castillo
John R. Cooper
The reason I don't think that Munching Spike (to use Rose's way too
cute term) was FE is that the attack on the woman at the end was only
seen by the camera. It doesn't make sense for FE to pose as Spike and
kill someone just for its own sake. And without someone important to
witness it (like Buffy or one of the Scoobies), it would have served
no purpose that I can discern.
And as for FE *possessing* Spike, do we know if FE even does that?
We know it can appear in the form of dead people. We don't know if it
can possess others, or physically interact with the living. To suppose
that FE is possessing Spike is to suppose a power not yet established
for this entity. Occam's Razor says, to me at least, that Spike was
Spike, and that he was not possessed by FE.
Cheers,
- John
DarkMagic
"Rose" <fyl...@aol.comspam> wrote in message
> Hey, with so many people jumping up and down and clapping their hands over
> seeing Munching Spike, I just hadda offer and alternative viewpoint. In
case
> ME is so desperate for better ratings at this point that they'd think Evil
> Spike is the key to success and go that way. (I'm assuming at this point
that
> they are not planning at this time to go that way, but that could be a
wrong
> assumption.)
>
gets
> old.
I don't know about that, Rose. I always found Spike's evil to be fresh and
exciting.;)
You want Evil Munching Spike, you have videotapes. It's been done.
Well, certainly it's been done, but I never tire of watching a master. (not
"the" Master, although, when it comes to it, I've never grown tired of him,
either. Glory, on the other hand....)
Even
> James Marsters can't come up with 16 more ways to say "Ya ha ha!" and bite
> people. Back when Spike was evil, people were saying "Stake him or it
makes him
> look bumbling and Buffy look incompetent." Some of those same people long
to
> see Evil Spike back, but if he comes back, they'll be yelling Stake Him!
again
> I'll wager.
I have never once shouted "Stake Him!" Although, maybe I should have.....
I think they're as sick of Doormat Spike as I am. But getting
> away from Doormat Spike by reverting him to Munching Spike is a copout.
>
I have never seen Doormat Spike. Making Spike's redemption as simple as
battling Lurky's pet "fists of fire" friend would be a cop-out. Watching
Spike battle, or choose not to battle, the temptations of genuine evil is a
story worth watching, imo.
> If Spike must turn evil, I'd like him to lose William's soul first. It
would be
> nice to have one (1) soul not destroyed on this show.
>
Maybe the soul isn't, and never has been, the issue here. According to
Willow the soul induces guilt. Spike experienced guilt on his own after he
attacked Buffy. Guilt has never, will never, inspire anyone to be good or
to do what's right. Those actions are motivated by the desire to be loved
and accepted. The question here, now, should be "Does Spike's love for
Buffy and his desire to be accepted and respected by her outweigh his
temptation to give into evil?"
> It would also be nice if Spike were not a pathetic doormat. I'm naive
enough
> to think you can be un-evil without being a pathetic doormat. Laugh if
you
> must.
The only time Spike was pathetic was when he was moping around the grave
yard over unrequited love. Everything else is an improvement.
>
> And that's my 2 cents. :)
>
Your two cents is always worth at least a nickel in my neck of the woods. ;)
Shannon>
Karnak17
>On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:06:44 -0800, Carmikl <Car...@rcn.com> wrote:
>
>>Rose wrote:
>>>
>>> Hey, with so many people jumping up and down and clapping their hands over
>>> seeing Munching Spike, I just hadda offer and alternative viewpoint. In
>case
>>> ME is so desperate for better ratings at this point that they'd think Evil
>>> Spike is the key to success and go that way. (I'm assuming at this point
>that
>>> they are not planning at this time to go that way, but that could be a
>wrong
>>> assumption.)
>>>
>>I don't think that was Spike. It might have been Morphy, or something
>>controlled by Morphy, but I doubt it's Spike. The irony might be that
>>Xander is Spike's alibi because they were both home watch TV.
>
> The reason I don't think that Munching Spike (to use Rose's way too
>cute term) was FE is that the attack on the woman at the end was only
>seen by the camera. It doesn't make sense for FE to pose as Spike and
>kill someone just for its own sake. And without someone important to
>witness it (like Buffy or one of the Scoobies), it would have served
>no purpose that I can discern.
Well, he picked her up in a public place surrounded by witnesses, and is
presumably going to leave her body to be found. Buffy clearly scans the papers
for vampire-like murders, so she will read about how this woman was last seen
leaving with a pale blonde man. More fuel to the fire of her suspicion. Or he
could have turned her after the scene ended, and she would then chat with other
vampires about who sired her, they'd tell Willie the Snitch about it, and thus
Buffy would know.
The most convincing way to convince Buffy about Spike is to just do the evil
stuff, and trust that word of mouth and Buffy's sources will eventually let her
figure it out. It's not like Morphy's going to get all angst-ridden if this
one girl's death is wasted. He'd just be sure to kill lots of people, so as to
increase the chances of Buffy finding out. Possibly Morphy or Possessed Spike
has been killing all season (I've been wondering why they didn't show where he
got his blood from). Holden might not have been the first Spike turned, just
the first who got chatty with Buffy. His revelation appears natural--and
therefore believable--because it is accidental. A murder or siring staged so
that Buffy would definitely find out would be less effective in the long run,
because it might arouse her suspicions.
> And as for FE *possessing* Spike, do we know if FE even does that?
>We know it can appear in the form of dead people. We don't know if it
>can possess others, or physically interact with the living. To suppose
>that FE is possessing Spike is to suppose a power not yet established
>for this entity. Occam's Razor says, to me at least, that Spike was
>Spike, and that he was not possessed by FE.
>
And to assume that William would sneak around killing people while worming his
way into Buffy's confidence is also assuming somthing about William we have no
evidence for yet. He was never to our knowledge a killer, and plainly is
tormented by the fact that Spike was.
Also, if Spike was killing under his own steam, would he sire vampires, and
abandon them to Buffy's tender mercies. Would he tell his victims his real
name, and pick up victims in public places, while he is still living in
Xander's closet--an easily stakable target? I know he's insane, but that
doesn't seem too believable to me.
Ebi
Not to be Mistress of the Obvious, but the detail we seem to be
scrambling to explain is that he didn't grab his head and yell "Oh,
the pain, the pain.".
BTW, did you notice that in the Bronze, Spike was cozied up to a
half-empty bottle of bourbon? I'd expect *that* would dull the pain,
or most of it.
--
"The troll is doing an Olaf impersonation!"
"Hit him with fruits and various meats!"
Nynorsk
> "Rose" <fyl...@aol.comspam> wrote in message
> news:20021113100600...@mb-fn.aol.com...
> > Mike wrote:
> >
> > > I think she is so into Spike that
> > >she is blinded to how good this show has been >this season.
> >
> > I think the show has been okay this season, not terrible and not great.
> >
> > If the BAPS board is any indication, last night's episode was very highly
> > regarded by many, many Spike fans. I just happen to be in the minority in
> > thinking it was only "okay".
> >
> > I thought the Spike scenes were well done. My problem with the ep had to
> do
> > with the dullness (imo) of the Willow/Cassie scenes until the end, and the
> > hokiness of the Dawn/haunted house stuff.
> >
> >
> > Rose
> > OWSADON (One Woman Society Against Slander and Destruction of NeoSpike)
>
> I can sorta go with you on the Willow scene
Nothing that has acting as poignant and verisimilitudinous as Alyson
Hannigan's in that scene could possibly be called dull. It was
gripping, heartbreaking even. Have you people no humanity?
Nynorsk
Nynorsk
> > nice to have one (1) soul not destroyed on this show.
>
> poor Spikey. My theory is that he is possessed, probably by Morphy,
> and has no control over what he does. So he has a new soul along with
> all that guilt which would be rough enough; just ask Angel. But now,
> in addition, he has the memory of who knows how many killings
> committed while his new/old/restored soul could only look on in
> horror.
>
> and ME just loves to torture this character.
That doesn't mean Spike has lost his soul, though. Certainly when he
realizes what he has been doing under Morphy's control, he'll be under
a terrible strain; it'll be devastating for him. But Spike is
resilient, and I don't see this destroying his soul in the long run.
What do you think is going to happen to Spike, Himiko?
Nynorsk
Ben
ohhh, so before he attacked Anya and tried to beat up Buffy, and then
after that but before he killed Holden and that girl from the bar.
ok. I gotcha. :) yeah when he wasn't nuts during those 3 eps he was
pretty cool.
to be honest I LIKE cool-spike. He's great when he's on that edge,
not quite accepted by the crowd, not hurting anyone, but not sleeping
with Buffy and trying to be friends with everyone. It's the 'why
don't you love me, Buffy?' version of Spike that makes me want to
vomit. Season 4-Spike was the best.
Growltiger
I guess you bother because you care. As do I. I would not want to see
a season two redux either. As they say, "been there and done that." So
my point, if there is one, is that I do not believe that having his soul
restored is like Glenda passing her wand over his head and making him
good.
It would be far more interesting to see him struggle, as we have so far
seen. And Angel angst has already been done, too, so I would like to
see another take on coming to terms with his soul. If his journey
allows him to become good, fine. All I ask is that the writers take a
fresh tack. If he fails and becomes evil with a soul, well that could
be good drama, too.
I think it is premature to judge which way things will turn. I like the
way the season is going, so let the chips fall where they may.
Tante Joan
>TURN evil? When was he good? Did I miss that? Was it between that
>time he tried to kill Buffy and then tried to rape her? Or maybe
>sometime around when he thought his chip stopped working and tried to
>kill that girl in the ally? hmmm...maybe I was in the bathroom. darn.
No, it was when he was mad and gibbering in the basement, but emerging
to lend a hand because he felt he must.
posting to all and Sundry
[Who he? He helps me shave my legs with Occam's Razor]
John R. Cooper
I can think of a number of explanations for why the chip seemed to
have no effect, all of them either more mundane or more interesting
than either notion that it was FE or Spike possessed by FE who killed
that woman.
In fact, the most interesting explanation--that the chip is either
not there (and hasn't been since his return from Africa) or defunct or
supressed in some manner--fits with the way in which Spike's most
recent kill was dramatized. Since we, the audience, were the only
witnesses to this event, it says to me that this scene was purely for
our benefit, to confirm the what Buffy learned from Holden.
If all we ever heard was Holden's claim of being sired by Spike,
then the question of Holden's credibility and trustworthiness would
undermine our acceptance of a chip-less Spike. But I believe that we
were made to witness Spike's latest kill so that there would be no
question in our minds about the situation.
Cheers,
- John
Ebi
>
> In fact, the most interesting explanation--that the chip is either
>not there (and hasn't been since his return from Africa) or defunct or
>supressed in some manner--fits with the way in which Spike's most
>recent kill was dramatized.
The above isn't really an *explanation* explanation. It's more of a
description :) The chip seemed to be there when he hit the RonnyWorm
and punched the Head Acolyte Of Infinite Frat Riches. How would you
theorize the chip got defunct or suppressed, if you were to theorize?
>Since we, the audience, were the only
>witnesses to this event, it says to me that this scene was purely for
>our benefit, to confirm the what Buffy learned from Holden.
>
I agree with this idea. Plus you know, the shock and horror value,
makes it a worthwhile thing. Spike's game face hasn't looked this
demonic for a long time.
Karnak17
>
>>
>> In fact, the most interesting explanation--that the chip is either
>>not there (and hasn't been since his return from Africa) or defunct or
>>supressed in some manner--fits with the way in which Spike's most
>>recent kill was dramatized.
>
>The above isn't really an *explanation* explanation. It's more of a
>description :) The chip seemed to be there when he hit the RonnyWorm
>and punched the Head Acolyte Of Infinite Frat Riches. How would you
>theorize the chip got defunct or suppressed, if you were to theorize?
I thought Spike looked like he was faking it, in "Beneath You". If he was
under Morphy's control, or partially, in both those scenes, faking the pain to
fool Buffy, that might be the simplest explaination.
>>Since we, the audience, were the only
>>witnesses to this event, it says to me that this scene was purely for
>>our benefit, to confirm the what Buffy learned from Holden.
>>
>
>I agree with this idea. Plus you know, the shock and horror value,
>makes it a worthwhile thing. Spike's game face hasn't looked this
>demonic for a long time.
.
Hostile17
Really interesting fx, but re-check your tape, she didn't turn into a
demon, she grinned to the extreme, then turning herself inside out,
consumed herself. Very freaky
"I may be Love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it."
Hostile17
>Rose wrote:
>>
>> Hey, with so many people jumping up and down and clapping their
hands over
>> seeing Munching Spike, I just hadda offer and alternative viewpoint.
In case
>> ME is so desperate for better ratings at this point that they'd
think Evil
>> Spike is the key to success and go that way. (I'm assuming at this
point that
>> they are not planning at this time to go that way, but that could be
a wrong
>> assumption.)
>>
>I don't think that was Spike. It might have been Morphy, or something
>controlled by Morphy, but I doubt it's Spike. The irony might be that
>Xander is Spike's alibi because they were both home watch TV.
The reason I don't think that Munching Spike (to use Rose's way too
cute term) was FE is that the attack on the woman at the end was only
seen by the camera. It doesn't make sense for FE to pose as Spike and
kill someone just for its own sake. And without someone important to
witness it (like Buffy or one of the Scoobies), it would have served
no purpose that I can discern
<There is a purpose though, to trick any Buffy/ Scobby investigation
into thinking that Spike HAS reverted. As was possibly making Buffy's
school chum "think" if was Spike that sired him. Although he could just
as easily been messing with Buffy'd head.>
NightBaron
> If Spike must turn evil, I'd like him to lose William's soul first. It would
> be nice to have one (1) soul not destroyed on this show.
First, I agreed with your posts, as much as I liked my Evil Spike,
going back to it would be pointless.
Second, about the above statement, I just want to say that there is no
indication yet that Spike got "William's" soul. I understand that
people's opinions on what the soul is is quite diverse, but even then,
there's no evidence that Spike's soulfulness is different from Angel's
soulfulness, and Angel's never been Liam, he's always been Angelus +
soul. They both have the memories of William/Liam, but are not them,
just a demon with their memories, and now their sense of morality.
So if Spike should ever revert to evil (which I also think they won't
do, but speaking hypothetically), William will still be untarnished,
the souled being that would be destroyed is Neo Spike (as you like to
call him).
JMNSHO
Rose
>
>So if Spike should ever revert to evil (which I also think they won't
>do, but speaking hypothetically), William will still be untarnished,
>the souled being that would be destroyed is Neo Spike (as you like to
>call him).
>
Well, tho I don't agree with your hypothesis, it is a comforting one.
Rose. Or is it Morphy Rose?