AOQ Angel Review 1-8: "I Will Remember You"
Arbitrar Of Quality
episodes in these review threads
ANGEL
Season One, Episode 8: "I Will Remember You"
(or "I'm PTB special agent Liam Angel. And today is the longest
day of my life.")
Writers: David Greenwalt and Jeanne Renshaw
Director: David Grossman
Here's the yang to the yin of "Pangs." Or is it the other way
around? Anyway, "I Will Remember You" has hero and Special Guest
Star meet within the first two minutes, rather than managing to avoid
doing so all episode. Buffy quickly makes it clear that she no likee
the avoidee thing. One of the things that this episode posits is that
two people can be apart for awhile, enough to dull some of the
memories, and then immediately resume their old vibe as if there was no
interruption once they meet again. Totally true. Some of the dialogue
is melodramatic as hell here, the kind of stuff that would turn me off
if this episode existed in a vacuum, but I'm fine with it. It takes
a very particular combination of context, backstory, and acting to make
lines like "I feel you... inside" work for me. Anyway, words
aside, they absolutely jump at the chance to fight a demon together.
It's like old times...
There's an obscene amount of suppressed tension in almost every scene
between Buffyverse leads, most obviously in the nice "Buffy's
outburst" bit in the sewer, but pretty much everywhere. Again, I
don't know how much of this is actually in the show and how much
I'm extrapolating based on past BTVS and _Angel_ viewing. In any
case, I'm feeling it. This comes to a head in the scene in which
they discuss taking the mature approach to dealing with his new
humanity. Gellar shines here (I'm as stunned as you are) as the
voice of pouty id, speaking to the side of Angel (and us) that's
heard the voice of reason and doesn't much care for it. Buffy's
disappointment is a force to be reckoned with, coloring the whole
sequence ("it's a good thing I didn't fantasize about you turning
human only about 10 zillion times, because today would have been a real
letdown"). And then we get the explosion of passion, which however
much it again reeks of high melodrama, feels absolutely appropriate
under these circumstances.
There's a trick as old as time in play here: since Angel normally
does a lot of glowering and not much smiling, notice how significant it
seems to see him in bed with his girlfriend, really laughing. The
episode *shows* us that he feels totally free and burdenless like never
before; we'd notice even if the script didn't say so, just by
watching the actor's mannerisms. Most viewers will have probably
gathered that this can't last, even though the episode has taken some
time to exclude some of the obvious mechanisms that could undo it.
That makes it more powerful, not less, since we have extra reason to
hope that they enjoy their contentment while it lasts. And I hope the
writers realize that this could've been even more effective had they
not wasted any happy-Angel moments on garbage like "Sense And
Sensitivity."
De-souling Angel gave Season Two of BTVS some of its best moments, but
it's also been used as a device to make a Forbidden Love story out of
the whole thing. All Troo Wuv, except for that nasty curse (and Angel
as an immortal in general). IWRY removes those obstacles, and still
has Angel walk away at the end. It's interesting to consider the way
the two of them not being equals affects his thinking. As established
before, Angel thinks Buffy's in danger because of her lack of
judgment where he's concerned, and takes steps to prevent it. It
could be called a true hero's sacrifice, or patronizing
martyr-complex stuff.
And of course, see the way he does it: once again it's a unilateral
decision, making choices "for their own good" without consulting
his better half, and ultimately cutting Buffy out of the loop entirely.
The early scenes of the episode serve to not-so-subtly suggest that
she wouldn't like that, if she could remember it happening. Beyond
the plot-based reasons that our lovers can't be lovers, this hits at
a character-based obstacle, a fundamental difference in attitudes. For
my money, it makes for a much more satisfying breakup episode than
anything else non-"Becoming." As much as I eventually grew to like
this particular romantic pairing, IWRY made me believe that going their
separate ways on their separate TV shows is better for both of them, in
a way I hadn't before.
Cordelia has a killer line about the two jobs she's able to do that
had Mrs. Quality laughing uncontrollably for about a minute.
Otherwise, she mainly serves her proper purpose of providing some
sarcasm in the background while staying the hell out of the way of the
important stuff. Feel free to compare and contrast her accidentally
telling Buffy about Angel's whereabouts with Xander doing the same
thing in "Pangs." If you must.
We get yet another villain who's not nearly as threatening as the
script makes it out to be, but doesn't get its excesses mocked
properly, except for when Buffy's around. It doesn't have much to
do with the real core of the show, as should be made clear when it's
killed with relative ease, twice.
So where exactly do the oracle-guys fit into this? Doyle seems to have
a lot that he's not telling us, and it was easy to forget that while
he's been providing comic relief and exploring his pre-demon
backstory. But Angel hasn't forgotten about the mysteries; he's
just being patient, given that he's not getting any older. The
abruptness with which he institutes his new no-dodging-the-question
policy helps the moment a lot, I think. The Oracles are a little too
plot-devicey for their own good, but I got a kick out of their
performance for some reason. Much like Marc Metcalf after he settled
into his role, they don't actually act like comic relief characters
per se, but they betray a little bit of suggested silliness here and
there, just enough to tell us not to take them too seriously. And we
avoid actually explaining the Powers That Be Thing once again.
The "not enough time" scene shouldn't work nearly as well as it
does. And I'm a sucker for touches like the way the ending puts a
new meaning on Angel's quiet "forget" from the beginning. And
re-watching will probably be worth it just to count the various
references to and allusions to time.
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
- "I'm sure they're down there just having tea and crackers."
[Cut to... well, you know.]
- "Is this antique?" "Byzantine." "Mmm." [It doesn't look as
funny as a quote, without the context and the timing.]
And the various permutations of "it's a long story... okay, maybe
not that long" are quickly becoming one of my favorite long-term
running jokes.
Unless someone can prove otherwise, let's just pretend that the first
daylight kiss happens on the same beach as Buffy's dream in
"Anne."
Anyone else get a craving for chocolate and peanut butter?
I feel like this episode will be one of the devisive ones. Taken in
isolation, there are myriad complaints that could be leveled at it.
Most obvious are the melodrama factor discussed above, and the fact
that the ending could be accused of either a deus ex machina or a reset
button (depending on which one you dislike more). And it doesn't
matter to me. Angel and Buffy have suffered enough and made me care
enough that they've earned the right to a little melodrama, a little
magic, and a short-lived time of adult happiness. Because IWRY does
not exist in isolation. It's not just its own story. It's part of
a narrative that's been going on for the past three years, and it
makes that story richer at the same time as it completes it. I don't
know if our heroes will meet again, but I think this is how it should
end.
So...
One-sentence summary: The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
AOQ rating: Excellent
[Season One so far:
1) "City Of" - Good
2) "Lonely Hearts" - Weak
3) "Into The Dark" - Good
4) "I Fall To Pieces" - Good
5) "Rm W/ A Vu" - Decent
6) "Sense And Sensitivity" - Weak
7) "The Bachelor Party" - Decent
8) "I Will Remember You" - Excellent]
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> It
> could be called a true hero's sacrifice, or patronizing
> martyr-complex stuff.
My vote's for patronizing martyr complex.
V'ir nyjnlf gubhtug gung guvf rcvfbqr unf gur shysvyzrag bs gur funa-fuh
cebcurpl, naq Natry tnir vg hc.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
eli...@gmail.com
>a narrative that's been going on for the past three years, and it
>makes that story richer at the same time as it completes it. I don't
>know if our heroes will meet again, but I think this is how it should
>end.
Also notice that Angel actually _told_ Doyle about what happened. This
is a huge thing for him - he's finally beginning to understand this
friendship thing.
Apteryx
news:1146110557.8...@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later _Buffy_ and _Angel_
> episodes in these review threads
>
> around? Anyway, "I Will Remember You" has hero and Special Guest
> Star meet within the first two minutes, rather than managing to avoid
> doing so all episode. Buffy quickly makes it clear that she no likee
> the avoidee thing. One of the things that this episode posits is that
> two people can be apart for awhile, enough to dull some of the
> memories, and then immediately resume their old vibe as if there was no
> interruption once they meet again. Totally true. Some of the dialogue
> is melodramatic as hell here, the kind of stuff that would turn me off
> if this episode existed in a vacuum, but I'm fine with it.
Not me. At this point Buffy is staging a fierce bid to wrest the title of
"Lamest Performance By A Character In A Crossover Role" from Angel for
Pangs. Nobody thought that performance could ever be beaten for that title,
but at this stage in the episode, Buffy is well ahead (and I think is is the
writing, so I give the credit to Buffy rather than SMG). Unfortunately she
blew it by getting much better later on.
> case, I'm feeling it. This comes to a head in the scene in which
> they discuss taking the mature approach to dealing with his new
> humanity. Gellar shines here (I'm as stunned as you are) as the
> voice of pouty id, speaking to the side of Angel (and us) that's
> heard the voice of reason and doesn't much care for it. Buffy's
> disappointment is a force to be reckoned with, coloring the whole
> sequence ("it's a good thing I didn't fantasize about you turning
> human only about 10 zillion times, because today would have been a real
> letdown"). And then we get the explosion of passion, which however
> much it again reeks of high melodrama, feels absolutely appropriate
> under these circumstances.
Here I do agree with you (and I'm not stunned that SMG can act). That's
prerry good melodrama.
> the two of them not being equals affects his thinking. As established
> before, Angel thinks Buffy's in danger because of her lack of
> judgment where he's concerned, and takes steps to prevent it. It
> could be called a true hero's sacrifice, or patronizing
> martyr-complex stuff.
Certainly true hero's sacrifice - Angel sacrificed his chance to be human so
that the show could go on for 5 more seasons. There is no other satisfactory
reason for it, but that is reason enough. Who wants to watch 5 seasons of
"Liam Angel, Private Eye"?
> So where exactly do the oracle-guys fit into this?
PTB ex machina. They make it look kinda easy to turn back time.
> I feel like this episode will be one of the devisive ones.
A case could be made I suppose. Certainly an indication that the show takes
Angel's redemption seriously, and won't let him have humanity by a fluke.
>
> One-sentence summary: The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
I like many of the same things about it that you do, but only enough to let
it outweigh the lame opening and lame resolution to the extent of rating it
a good Decent. As a companion to Pangs, it falls a long way short. For me,
its the 59th best AtS episode, 12 best in Season 1.
--
Apteryx
William George Ferguson
wrote:
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later _Buffy_ and _Angel_
>episodes in these review threads
>
>
>ANGEL
>Season One, Episode 8: "I Will Remember You"
>(or "I'm PTB special agent Liam Angel. And today is the longest
>day of my life.")
>Writers: David Greenwalt and Jeanne Renshaw
>Director: David Grossman
>
>Here's the yang to the yin of "Pangs." Or is it the other way
>around?
I would go with your way. Yin is the female principle and Yang the male
principle.
>There's an obscene amount of suppressed tension in almost every scene
>between Buffyverse leads, most obviously in the nice "Buffy's
>outburst" bit in the sewer,
The phrase 'heartwrenching sewer talk. is now available for use in these
threads. You may have noticed by now that they baseically reused the same
set for all the sewer/tunnel scenes, dressing it slightly differently so
it would look like different locations. After this ep, I started
referring to it as the heartwrenching sewer.
>It could be called a true hero's sacrifice, or patronizing
>martyr-complex stuff.
Like Don, I vote for the latter. Buffy also tends to unilaterally do
things for other peoples own good, but at least she usually tells them
about it first.
>I feel like this episode will be one of the devisive ones.
It was.
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
Daniel Damouth
news:1146110557.8...@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
> I feel like this episode will be one of the devisive ones.
I take this adjective to be a conflation of "divisive" and "derisive".
More importantly, I am pleased if you post to the entire world without
a spell checker, as do I. We both may feel superior.
-Dan Damouth
Kevin
I've indicated my admiration for David Hines' reviews (from back in the
day); his pan of IWRY was one of my favorites, and I can't help but
quote big chunks of it below. Hines and AOQ are at opposite poles on
this one... Might make for interesting discussion:
"This episode should have come with commemorative towels. The shippers
could have used them to mop up drool, tears, and other bodily fluids as
appropriate. The rest of us could have soaked 'em, rolled 'em up, and
given the writers a much-deserved rat-tailing they'd never forget."
"Why did we need this episode again? Take a bunch of old videotapes,
edit
together all the scenes with Buffy and Angel angsting, and it'll be the
same damn show. Except without Sarah Michelle Gellar licking ice cream
off of David Boreanaz's nipple, and man, I gotta tell you, I could have
lived the rest of my life without seeing that sight."
"Angel and Buffy don't lose their shot at happiness and their perfect
day
because life is tragic. They lose it because Angel is dumb...
Angel is incredibly stupid. On finding out the demon that nearly
kicked
his tuchis the first time around is alive, he goes to hunt it down
again,
this time while mortal and extremely vulnerable, not listening to
Doyle's
advice to take along Buffy, who *is* superpowered. Angel gets his ass
royally kicked this time. Buffy saves him, and Angel decides to go
back
to being a vamp, on the grounds that he's a liability to her as a
mortal,
and she could wind up dead if she's worrying about him, and she would
likely die in the whole End Time business. So... what, she'd wind up
any
less dead if she were worrying about a mortal? It's not like any other
mortal guy would have fared better in that fight. Any other mortal guy
would have had the sense *NOT TO GO,* or to go heavily armed,
preferably
as back-up to the slayer. What the lame TOS-reject Prophets *should*
have told him was, "No, shithead, you're not a liability to her because
you're mortal; you're a liability to her because you have all the
intelligence of a box of rocks."
"For everyone who ever wondered what the hell I was getting at when I
babbled about the distinction between television and fanfic -- this
"two-part BUFFY/ANGEL crossover event" is it. Right there, front and
center. I could not have planned a better contrast if I had tried.
"Pangs" is television. I think it is pretty good television...
"Pangs" has a good plot structure. It stands, it works, it moves.
ANGEL's "I Will Remember You" is fanfic. Romantic 'shipper fanfiction
really isn't my bag, but I think IWRY is a pretty good example of the
species: little story, lots of angst, cuteness, and (of course) Buffy
and
Angel rogering their motherloving brains out. I think it would meet
with
widespread acclaim as fanfic, were it published as such, and in that
case,
it would probably be deserved. It is good fanfic. Unfortunately, as
television, it's utter tripe." [ -- David Hines]
--Kevin
eli...@gmail.com
Do you by any chance have a link to these reviews? Because I really
think I need to read them!
But - just to voice a point - where would AtS be without Angel's
stupidity?
gree...@gmail.com
eli...@gmail.com wrote:
> *dies laughing*
>
> Do you by any chance have a link to these reviews? Because I really
> think I need to read them!
This particular one can be found in a Google groups search on message
ID <U6__3.41513$oa2.2...@iad-read.news.verio.net> .
Terry
Arbitrar Of Quality
gree...@gmail.com
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> AOQ rating: Excellent
You forgot to add 'example of utter tripe' after that "Excellent".
Terry
Arbitrar Of Quality
As much as I'd like to take credit and feel superior, it's just a
mispelling of "divisive."
-AOQ
gree...@gmail.com
eli...@gmail.com
mis-remember...
*thinks*
Maybe I'm getting it confused with the talk at the end of 'In The
Dark'. I really ought to re-watch AtS!
Arbitrar Of Quality
> I've indicated my admiration for David Hines' reviews (from back in the
> day); his pan of IWRY was one of my favorites, and I can't help but
> quote big chunks of it below.
Hines seems to have a way with words, but did he actually even like
BTVS/ATS, or did he just keep posting reviews out of inertia or
somethng?
> "Why did we need this episode again? Take a bunch of old videotapes,
> edit
> together all the scenes with Buffy and Angel angsting, and it'll be the
> same damn show."
Disagreed here. This episode could only take place with the previous
bariers (Angel as a vampire and an immortal) removed; they've never had
a chance to deal with each other on human terms before. You could also
argue that it wouln't be the same without them having spent several
months without seeing each other. And as I've said, one of the reasons
I loved it is that it proved to me that Angel's the reason the two of
them shouldn't be together in the long run - who he is, not what he is.
> "Angel and Buffy don't lose their shot at happiness and their perfect
> day because life is tragic. They lose it because Angel is dumb...
> Angel is incredibly stupid."
Well, more because Angel s Angel. To address the question in the
reply, where would ATS be without Angel's supidity? Well, at this
point I don't think he's stupid so much as that he has a few particular
blind-spots about certain things. In any case, given the character,
it'd be strange to expect him to behave differently than he does here.
So far he's shown an interesting mix of overconfidence in his own
abilities (both physical and decision-making), the notion that he's the
one who needs to deal with every problem, and the belief that his
presence is a problem or liability for people, so the solution for
everything is for him to take himself out of the picture. Call it a
martyr complex. I called it a fundamental difference, but Buffy can
actually be the same way, sometimes. That's going to be a constant
conflict; she'd never accept being taken care of and looked after that
way, at least not in the long term.
> "Buffy saves him, and Angel decides to go back to being a vamp, on the grounds that he's a
> liability to her as a
> mortal, and she could wind up dead if she's worrying about him, and she would
> likely die in the whole End Time business. So... what, she'd wind up
> any less dead if she were worrying about a mortal? It's not like any other
> mortal guy would have fared better in that fight."
Whoooosh.
> "For everyone who ever wondered what the hell I was getting at when I
> babbled about the distinction between television and fanfic -- this
> "two-part BUFFY/ANGEL crossover event" is it."
I've made my decision. "Fanfic" is even more meaningless as criticism
than "soap opera" is.
-AOQ
jil...@hotmail.com
the addition of a human soul. Check out this conversation with the
um... blue people:
Woman steps to one side of Angel: "It's true then, brother."
Man on Angel's other side: "He is no longer a warrior."
Angel: "It was the demon's blood. It wasn't the Powers-That-Be that
did this?"
Man: "The Powers-That-Be? Did you save humanity? Avert the
Apocalypse?"
Woman: "You faced a Mohra demon. Life goes on."
Angel: "My life as a human. I'm not poisoned or under some spell?"
Woman looks up, after a beat: "The Auguries say no. If it has
happened it was meant to be."
Man: "From this day, you will live and die as any mortal man."
Woman: "Privy to all the attendant pains - and pleasures."
Man: "That which we serve is no longer that which you serve. You are
released from your fealty."
The woman and man walk away form him.
Angel: "That's it? I'm free?"
Says he. Until he ponders what happens.
Then there's this:
Angel: "The Mohra demon said the end of days had begun. That others
were coming, soldiers of darkness. I need to know if he was telling
the truth."
Man: "As far as such things can be told."
Angel: "What happens to the Slayer when these soldiers come?"
Woman: "What happens to all mortal beings. Albeit sooner in her
case."
Angel: "She'll die? - Then I'm here to beg for her life."
The Oracles turn and walk away: "It is not our place to grant life or
death."
Angel: "And I ask you to take mine back. (The oracles stop walking
and turn back to him) Look I can't protect her or anyone this way, not
as a man."
Woman: "You're asking to be what you were, a demon with a soul,
because of the Slayer?"
Man turns to leave again: "Oh, this is a matter of love. It does not
concern us."
Angel: "Yes, it does. The Mohra demon came to take a warrior from
your cause - and it succeeded. I'm no good to you like this. I know
you have it in your power to make this right. Please."
Man: "What is done can not be undone."
Woman: "What is not yet done can be avoided."
Man: "Temporal folds are not to indulge at - the whims of lower
beings."
Woman: "You are wrong. This one is willing to sacrifice every drop of
human happiness and love he has ever known for another. He is not a
lower being."
Man: "There is one way. But it is not to be undertaken lightly."
Woman: "We swallow this day, as though it had never happened.
Twenty-four hours from the moment the demon first attacked you, we take
it back."
Angel licks his lips: "Then none of this happened and Buffy and I..
What - what'll stop us from doing the exact same thing again?"
Woman: "You. You alone will carry the memory of this day. - Can you
carry that burden?"
You know, this conversation is ironic. Angel should really name names
earlier.
eli...@gmail.com
>I loved it is that it proved to me that Angel's the reason the two of
>them shouldn't be together in the long run - who he is, not what he is.
>So far he's shown an interesting mix of overconfidence in his own
>abilities (both physical and decision-making), the notion that he's the
>one who needs to deal with every problem, and the belief that his
>presence is a problem or liability for people, so the solution for
>everything is for him to take himself out of the picture.
Very well put. I have nothing to add!
Don Sample
eli...@gmail.com wrote:
Hines started out pretty good, but by this point he was starting to get
much too impressed with himself. He also took an extreme dislike to a
certain minor character, and his reviews devolved into exercises to see
how many stupid nick-names he could make up for them.
Don Sample
"jil...@hotmail.com" <jil...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Forget about naming names. He should just pay attention to what's being
said to him. The Glitter Twins said nothing to indicate whether Angel
staying a vampire would make one whit if difference to Buffy's life
expectancy. From what we heard there, we could just as reasonably
conclude that him going back to being a vampire will kill her quicker.
eli...@gmail.com
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later _Buffy_ and _Angel_
> episodes in these review threads
>
>
> ANGEL
> Season One, Episode 8: "I Will Remember You"
> (or "I'm PTB special agent Liam Angel. And today is the longest
> day of my life.")
> Writers: David Greenwalt and Jeanne Renshaw
> Director: David Grossman
Wow. I usually enjoy AOQ's reviews, even when I disagree with them; but
in this case I think I agree with almost every word he wrote.
(Hopefully that doesn't make him doubt his own judgement....)
> lines like "I feel you... inside" work for me. Anyway, words
> aside, they absolutely jump at the chance to fight a demon together.
> It's like old times...
> There's an obscene amount of suppressed tension in almost every scene
> between Buffyverse leads, most obviously in the nice "Buffy's
> outburst" bit in the sewer, but pretty much everywhere.
They just *had* to have the talk in the sewer, to parallel the breakup
scene in the sewer in The Prom. The parallel is pointed out, without
undue emphasis, in Buffy's sarcastic commment that "I was really jonesing
for another heartbreaking sewer talk."
> This comes to a head in the scene in which
> they discuss taking the mature approach to dealing with his new
> humanity. Gellar shines here (I'm as stunned as you are)
In other words, not at all. (Right?) ... This whole scene is crucial to
making IWRY the success that it is. It wouldn't have been half so good if
Angel and Buffy had immediately assumed, as soon as he turned human, that
they could now be together. They have too much unhappy history behind
them to believe it would really be that easy. Having them decide to wait,
only to be overcome by temptation, was the only way to keep it emotionally
believable and in character.
In the bedroom scene, I'd bet Angel's line "Mortal coordination leaves
something to be desired" was intended to foreshadow his unsuccessful fight
with the Mohra.
> the whole thing. All Troo Wuv, except for that nasty curse (and Angel
> as an immortal in general). IWRY removes those obstacles, and still
> has Angel walk away at the end. It's interesting to consider the way
> the two of them not being equals affects his thinking. As established
> before, Angel thinks Buffy's in danger because of her lack of
> judgment where he's concerned, and takes steps to prevent it. It
> could be called a true hero's sacrifice, or patronizing
> martyr-complex stuff.
The not-being-equals thing is a good point. After the demon kicked his
now-mortal ass, Angel started to fear that he was now a liability to
Buffy; but did he also start to fear that maybe their love just couldn't
work out? Could their relationship survive the stress of Angel's demotion
from co-hero to Willow or Xander-level sidekick? And if he was thinking
that way, then maybe his decision isn't much of a heroic sacrifice *or* a
martyr-complex thing, but just a sad acknowledgement that in the long run
it wouldn't work with Buffy anyway, so he might as well go back to his
hero position. I don't think he says anything to indicate that this was
part of his thinking, but IMO it would make sense.
> The "not enough time" scene shouldn't work nearly as well as it
> does.
This is a great though painful scene. Or great *because* it's painful.
The two of them aren't just sad or upset, they actually lose control, and
Buffy in particular is on the verge of a total breakdown. It's very well
acted, and I get a slightly creepy voyeuristic feeling every time I see
it.
> Unless someone can prove otherwise, let's just pretend that the first
> daylight kiss happens on the same beach as Buffy's dream in
> "Anne."
Which reminds me -- Did anyone tell Buffy that Angel destroyed the Gem of
Amara? She must know by now, because otherwise, when she first sees Angel
step out into the sun, the natural assumption would be that he's just
wearing the Gem.
There are certainly other episodes I like even more; but still, I'll call
it Excellent.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Hines seems to have a way with words, but did he actually even like
> BTVS/ATS, or did he just keep posting reviews out of inertia or
> somethng?
Both. He actually liked BTVS for the first two seasons, but he took
issue with the structure of the 3rd season (he called it all a big
reset button, with Buffy back at SHS and Angel back and all. I asked
him what he would have done differently, given the realities of
television (the actors were under contract, etc.), but he never
answered). He turned more against the show in S4 due to his intense
dislike of Riley, and went off the deep end of bashing-for-its-own-sake
in S5, in my opinion. I can't remember if he even finished that season
(he went up to ep 16, at least).
I don't remember his AtS reviews as well, but I think he liked
Boreanaz.
> > "Buffy saves him, and Angel decides to go back to being a vamp, on the grounds that he's a
> > liability to her as a
> > mortal, and she could wind up dead if she's worrying about him, and she would
> > likely die in the whole End Time business. So... what, she'd wind up
> > any less dead if she were worrying about a mortal? It's not like any other
> > mortal guy would have fared better in that fight."
>
> Whoooosh.
Heh.
> > "For everyone who ever wondered what the hell I was getting at when I
> > babbled about the distinction between television and fanfic -- this
> > "two-part BUFFY/ANGEL crossover event" is it."
>
> I've made my decision. "Fanfic" is even more meaningless as criticism
> than "soap opera" is.
It almost as meaningless as "jumped the shark."
-- Mike Zeares
Opus the Penguin
Jryy, abguvat ur'f nyybjrq gb frr lrg. Ohg gur pbtrapl bs uvf
bofreingvba bayl vapernfrf, yrnqvat anghenyyl gb gur zvqqyr bs Frnfba
2 jura Natry sverf uvf fgnss.
--
Opus the Penguin
The best darn penguin in all of Usenet
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> One-sentence summary: The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
I can't think of anything to say about your review except that I agree
with it, so I'll tell a story. I had a friend back then who never
really got into Buffy. I tried to get her to watch it (we'd formed our
friendship over mutual love of Babylon 5. Ah, geek romance...), but it
just didn't click with her. However, she did watch IRWY, which was the
first AtS ep she'd seen. She knew the basics of the Buffy/Angel story,
but wasn't emotionally invested in it. She was still absolutely
devastated by IRWY. We like melodrama, when it's done well, because it
works. It can sweep us up in the emotions.
It helps that SMG has the most damaged-looking cry face this side of
Allison Hannigan.
-- Mike Zeares
eli...@gmail.com
Opus the Penguin
> It helps that SMG has the most damaged-looking cry face this side of
> Allison Hannigan.
They're two different looks. With Hannigan (or at least with Willow)
the look is so sad you want to stay and comfort her for as long as it
takes. With SMG (or at least with Buffy) she's got a look that's so
devastated you can't imagine what comfort you could offer and you know
she'd shove you away if you tried.
Kevin
Mike Zeares wrote:
> I can't think of anything to say about your review except that I agree
> We like melodrama, when it's done well, because it
> works. It can sweep us up in the emotions.
That's interesting, because in November 1999, you replied to Hines'
IWRY review with this:
"IWRY, on the other hand, had me rolling my eyes so
much I got seasick. I was able to appreciate it as the
obvious hand-out to B/A 'shippers it was, but when I
realized that they were actually going to hit the Magic
Reset Button, I suddenly began missing Cronan that
much more. If there was ever a Whedon show that
begged for one of his MiSTings, this was it."
I guess you grew to like it, because that doesn't quite jive with
"Excellent".
--Kevin
Kevin
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Hines seems to have a way with words, but did he actually even like
> BTVS/ATS, or did he just keep posting reviews out of inertia or
> somethng?
He gushed over Becoming (not for the tear-jerking but for the whole
shebang). He was blown away by how strong both shows were at their
best (BTVS's peaks in late-S2 and parts of S3; ATS S2 main storyline;
plenty of standalone eps). Plot-structure problems could often mar his
appreciation for other aspects, and give him a curmudgeonly vibe, but I
thought he was usually very perceptive and revelatory. His defense of
the characterization in Killed By Death (widely panned at the time) was
one of my favorites, as was his drastic contrast between Surprise and
Innocence, which I had tended to think of as one large unit; that sorta
damaged my original positive memories of Surprise, but hey, he was
right. His S4/5 reviews may have lost focus, but so did the show, and
I think it deserved most of his pans. Anyway, no reviewer is perfect,
and I sure don't see eye-to-eye with him everywhere, I just think he's
very good to read (as are you). They can all be Googled.
--Kevin
KenM47
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later _Buffy_ and _Angel_
>episodes in these review threads
>
>
>ANGEL
>Season One, Episode 8: "I Will Remember You"
>(or "I'm PTB special agent Liam Angel. And today is the longest
>day of my life.")
>Writers: David Greenwalt and Jeanne Renshaw
>Director: David Grossman
>
<SNIP>
>
>I feel like this episode will be one of the devisive ones. Taken in
>isolation, there are myriad complaints that could be leveled at it.
>Most obvious are the melodrama factor discussed above, and the fact
>that the ending could be accused of either a deus ex machina or a reset
>button (depending on which one you dislike more). And it doesn't
>matter to me. Angel and Buffy have suffered enough and made me care
>enough that they've earned the right to a little melodrama, a little
>magic, and a short-lived time of adult happiness. Because IWRY does
>not exist in isolation. It's not just its own story. It's part of
>a narrative that's been going on for the past three years, and it
>makes that story richer at the same time as it completes it. I don't
>know if our heroes will meet again, but I think this is how it should
>end.
>
>
>So...
>
>One-sentence summary: The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
>
>AOQ rating: Excellent
>
Ain't closure grand?
OK. Excellent it is, even with the annoying Oracles and PTB elements.
SMG was great. Makes me tear up every time. Even DB sold it all.
Gave the fans what they wanted, kinda.
I haven't read other posts yet. Maybe someone else mentions this. So,
IIRC, there was a rumor that CC was soundly PO'd at SMG or vice
versa. They, or one of them, refused to do scenes together. There are
no scenes where both of their faces are seen together. I imagine there
was another reason, scheduling or something, but the rumor was fun.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Which reminds me -- Did anyone tell Buffy that Angel destroyed the Gem of
> Amara? She must know by now, because otherwise, when she first sees Angel
> step out into the sun, the natural assumption would be that he's just
> wearing the Gem.
Well, you answered your own question. Th simplest explanation is that
Angel told Giles, and Giles told Buffy.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Mike Zeares (mze...@yahoo.com) wrote:
>
> > It helps that SMG has the most damaged-looking cry face this side of
> > Allison Hannigan.
>
> They're two different looks. With Hannigan (or at least with Willow)
> the look is so sad you want to stay and comfort her for as long as it
> takes. With SMG (or at least with Buffy) she's got a look that's so
> devastated you can't imagine what comfort you could offer and you know
> she'd shove you away if you tried.
If I did sigs, that'd be my new quote.
-AOQ
Apteryx
news:125214i...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> Which reminds me -- Did anyone tell Buffy that Angel destroyed the Gem of
> Amara? She must know by now, because otherwise, when she first sees Angel
> step out into the sun, the natural assumption would be that he's just
> wearing the Gem.
I guess at this stage Buffy still found time to watch AtS occasionally.
Mostly of course she didn't, and nor did Angel watch BtVS, since mostly they
don't have a clue what is going on in the other series, unless we
specifically see a phone call being made from one series to the other.
--
Apteryx
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
Or Angel sent her a note directly.
jil...@hotmail.com
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > "For everyone who ever wondered what the hell I was getting at when I
> > babbled about the distinction between television and fanfic -- this
> > "two-part BUFFY/ANGEL crossover event" is it."
>
> I've made my decision. "Fanfic" is even more meaningless as criticism
> than "soap opera" is.
>
> -AOQ
Definitely. In this case "Fanfic" simply means "canon I hate."
jil...@hotmail.com
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> The not-being-equals thing is a good point. After the demon kicked his
> now-mortal ass, Angel started to fear that he was now a liability to
> Buffy; but did he also start to fear that maybe their love just couldn't
> work out? Could their relationship survive the stress of Angel's demotion
> from co-hero to Willow or Xander-level sidekick? And if he was thinking
> that way, then maybe his decision isn't much of a heroic sacrifice *or* a
> martyr-complex thing, but just a sad acknowledgement that in the long run
> it wouldn't work with Buffy anyway, so he might as well go back to his
> hero position. I don't think he says anything to indicate that this was
> part of his thinking, but IMO it would make sense.
I used to think something like that, too. Specifically the bit about
Angel not wanting to be a Xander-level sidekick. But after re-reading
and thinking about the episode, I disagree.
For me, now, it was all about his fear of not being able to be strong
enough to make a difference when Buffy needed him. All about not
wanting to be that liability to her. Creuncf nf gur frevrf cebterffrq
gurl qrpvqrq gung jura Natry gubhtug onpx ba vg ur jbhyq orpbzr
ivbyragyl bccbfrq gb orvat n Knaqre be Jrfyrl-yriry fvqrxvpx.
However, I'm pretty sure that it never once crossed his mind that Buffy
would not love him as much if he was normal. I think she always would
have. That's the kind of person she was and he was.
One Bit Shy
news:1146110557.8...@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later _Buffy_ and _Angel_
> episodes in these review threads
>
>
> ANGEL
> Season One, Episode 8: "I Will Remember You"
> (or "I'm PTB special agent Liam Angel. And today is the longest
> day of my life.")
> Writers: David Greenwalt and Jeanne Renshaw
> Director: David Grossman
>
> around? Anyway, "I Will Remember You" has hero and Special Guest
> Star meet within the first two minutes, rather than managing to avoid
> doing so all episode. Buffy quickly makes it clear that she no likee
> the avoidee thing. One of the things that this episode posits is that
> two people can be apart for awhile, enough to dull some of the
> memories, and then immediately resume their old vibe as if there was no
> interruption once they meet again. Totally true. Some of the dialogue
> is melodramatic as hell here, the kind of stuff that would turn me off
> if this episode existed in a vacuum, but I'm fine with it. It takes
> a very particular combination of context, backstory, and acting to make
> lines like "I feel you... inside" work for me. Anyway, words
> aside, they absolutely jump at the chance to fight a demon together.
> It's like old times...
I agree with you about resuming the old vibe and how the backstory supports
the dialogue - makes it truly appropriate. But perversely, that makes the
early Buffy/Angel scences all that much worse for me. What it does is
transport me back to the perpetual break-up of BtVS S3 that drove me nuts.
Seeing it now makes me cringe. I can't believe I have to rehash that stuff
again.
The performance in most of this is ok - not the best - but generally up to
the task. I suspect these scenes work pretty well for an Angel viewer not
so intimately familiar with the old story. I, alas, could not put myself
into that mode.
Angel turning human offered potential for more. Unfortunately, its first
manifestation with Buffy turned out to be the most disappointing scene in
the show. Maybe the series to date. In theory, Buffy seeing Angel approach
her in daylight would be a profound shock to her and a major episode climax.
But to my eyes it was strangely subdued - doubly so for an episode that
otherwise plays the melodrama to the hilt. First, his appearance is through
a muddled mix of shadow and light that never truly lands the suns full rays
upon him in sharp contrast to the shadows. And then Buffy just sort of
stands there and gapes. Couldn't she at least get a little wobbly kneed?
I was feeling pretty down on the episode at this point.
> There's an obscene amount of suppressed tension in almost every scene
> between Buffyverse leads, most obviously in the nice "Buffy's
> outburst" bit in the sewer, but pretty much everywhere. Again, I
> don't know how much of this is actually in the show and how much
> I'm extrapolating based on past BTVS and _Angel_ viewing. In any
> case, I'm feeling it. This comes to a head in the scene in which
> they discuss taking the mature approach to dealing with his new
> humanity. Gellar shines here (I'm as stunned as you are) as the
> voice of pouty id, speaking to the side of Angel (and us) that's
> heard the voice of reason and doesn't much care for it. Buffy's
> disappointment is a force to be reckoned with, coloring the whole
> sequence ("it's a good thing I didn't fantasize about you turning
> human only about 10 zillion times, because today would have been a real
> letdown"). And then we get the explosion of passion, which however
> much it again reeks of high melodrama, feels absolutely appropriate
> under these circumstances.
(Angel doesn't seem to mind Buffy having peanut butter in his bed. I tell
you, Cordelia gets no respect.)
The tea and crackers scene totally reversed my feelings. It was
outstanding - beautifully performed. The funny thing for me is that it too
starts down the rode of why they can't be together. Oh my god. Finally,
after all this time and pain, they're free to get it on and they're going to
wuss out? Tell me it ain't so, Joe! But of course one touch of their hands
and their reserve crumbles into groiny fun - as it had to. This time, with
Angel's humanity radically altering the subtext, the old angst didn't work
the same way. It was more like a dog that had been tied to a chain for
years, not being able to go beyond the length of that chain even when freed.
Initially.
The pure joy of them together - as easy and obvious as it is - is wonderful.
Once in a while the characters deserve a moment of happiness. This one was
well earned.
> There's a trick as old as time in play here: since Angel normally
> does a lot of glowering and not much smiling, notice how significant it
> seems to see him in bed with his girlfriend, really laughing. The
> episode *shows* us that he feels totally free and burdenless like never
> before; we'd notice even if the script didn't say so, just by
> watching the actor's mannerisms. Most viewers will have probably
> gathered that this can't last, even though the episode has taken some
> time to exclude some of the obvious mechanisms that could undo it.
> That makes it more powerful, not less, since we have extra reason to
> hope that they enjoy their contentment while it lasts. And I hope the
> writers realize that this could've been even more effective had they
> not wasted any happy-Angel moments on garbage like "Sense And
> Sensitivity."
I don't really understand that remark. Wasn't that a very different kind of
happiness?
> De-souling Angel gave Season Two of BTVS some of its best moments, but
> it's also been used as a device to make a Forbidden Love story out of
> the whole thing. All Troo Wuv, except for that nasty curse (and Angel
> as an immortal in general). IWRY removes those obstacles, and still
> has Angel walk away at the end. It's interesting to consider the way
> the two of them not being equals affects his thinking. As established
> before, Angel thinks Buffy's in danger because of her lack of
> judgment where he's concerned, and takes steps to prevent it. It
> could be called a true hero's sacrifice, or patronizing
> martyr-complex stuff.
I don't think I'd term it quite that way, but from that choice I'd take the
second. Which brings us to the whole paternal bit of Angel doing what's
best for Buffy without discussing it with her - as in what brought her to
town to begin with. I'm not sure what I think of this as regards the
quality of the episode, but I do know that I don't much like Angel on this
front. Less so now than ever. It bothers me that in the "forgotten"
reality he told her just late enough to terrorize her last minute, and in
the recovered reality Buffy is left morose and in the dark while Angel gets
to retain the memory of their moment together. It's kind of depressing in
an ugly way and left a bit of a sour taste in my mouth as the episode ended.
> And of course, see the way he does it: once again it's a unilateral
> decision, making choices "for their own good" without consulting
> his better half, and ultimately cutting Buffy out of the loop entirely.
> The early scenes of the episode serve to not-so-subtly suggest that
> she wouldn't like that, if she could remember it happening. Beyond
> the plot-based reasons that our lovers can't be lovers, this hits at
> a character-based obstacle, a fundamental difference in attitudes. For
> my money, it makes for a much more satisfying breakup episode than
> anything else non-"Becoming." As much as I eventually grew to like
> this particular romantic pairing, IWRY made me believe that going their
> separate ways on their separate TV shows is better for both of them, in
> a way I hadn't before.
I can't characterize it as satisfying, but it did have its moments, and it
does feel like closure, which is a relief for me.
One other thing about the closure aspect for me is the appearance of the
Oracles. I don't know where they'll go, or if it'll be any good, if it goes
anywhere at all. But whatever that may be, they suggest something very
different - something unique to this series without homage to BtVS. I think
it's interesting that this episode that appears to offer closure to the
defining relationshiip hanging over from its mother series uses that
opportunity to introduce something so new as well. Perhaps a kind of
delcaration of independence?
> Cordelia has a killer line about the two jobs she's able to do that
> had Mrs. Quality laughing uncontrollably for about a minute.
Right before that is the line that made me laugh out loud...
Doyle: I'm finally free to go out in the world and make me own mark in the
world.
Cordy: We had a cat that used to do that.
> Otherwise, she mainly serves her proper purpose of providing some
> sarcasm in the background while staying the hell out of the way of the
> important stuff. Feel free to compare and contrast her accidentally
> telling Buffy about Angel's whereabouts with Xander doing the same
> thing in "Pangs." If you must.
No, but I do observe that the episodes had similar monsters in the sense
that they didn't die when killed. Don't know if that means anything.
> We get yet another villain who's not nearly as threatening as the
> script makes it out to be, but doesn't get its excesses mocked
> properly, except for when Buffy's around. It doesn't have much to
> do with the real core of the show, as should be made clear when it's
> killed with relative ease, twice.
>
> So where exactly do the oracle-guys fit into this? Doyle seems to have
> a lot that he's not telling us, and it was easy to forget that while
> he's been providing comic relief and exploring his pre-demon
> backstory.
I was disappointed that Doyle didn't fight in demon face. Takes away from
the last episode IMO.
> But Angel hasn't forgotten about the mysteries; he's
> just being patient, given that he's not getting any older. The
> abruptness with which he institutes his new no-dodging-the-question
> policy helps the moment a lot, I think. The Oracles are a little too
> plot-devicey for their own good, but I got a kick out of their
> performance for some reason. Much like Marc Metcalf after he settled
> into his role, they don't actually act like comic relief characters
> per se, but they betray a little bit of suggested silliness here and
> there, just enough to tell us not to take them too seriously. And we
> avoid actually explaining the Powers That Be Thing once again.
I'm mostly reserving judgment on the Oracles. Their appearance and manner
seems a bit cheesey, but I think that's incidental. I don't have a handle
on what they are or will be contibuting to the series yet. Their words are
deliberately obscure - though Angel acted like he thought he understood
them. (Not convinced that he did.) However, one thing really stood out to
me...
Man: That which we serve is no longer that which you serve. You are
released from your fealty.
Angel: That's it? I'm free?
----
Angel: The Mohra demon came to take a warrior from your cause - and it
succeeded. I'm no good to you like this.
----
Woman: He is not a lower being.
Fealty? Now I know Doyle saw himself as serving the PTB, but had Angel
really accepted that for himself - on such stark terms as fealty? Here, he
doesn't say peep about it. I suppose he was distracted by the initial
freedom. But doesn't the manner of his request for restoration imply
acceptance of fealty now? Did the Oracles just play him into a greater
promise than he knew? Or are we supposed to believe it had always been
such?
> The "not enough time" scene shouldn't work nearly as well as it
> does. And I'm a sucker for touches like the way the ending puts a
> new meaning on Angel's quiet "forget" from the beginning. And
> re-watching will probably be worth it just to count the various
> references to and allusions to time.
Buffy crying is - well - end of the world suffering. I like the clocks
myself - and the use of "forget". The sour taste I was still left with was
commented on above.
> I feel like this episode will be one of the devisive ones. Taken in
> isolation, there are myriad complaints that could be leveled at it.
> Most obvious are the melodrama factor discussed above, and the fact
> that the ending could be accused of either a deus ex machina or a reset
> button (depending on which one you dislike more). And it doesn't
> matter to me. Angel and Buffy have suffered enough and made me care
> enough that they've earned the right to a little melodrama, a little
> magic, and a short-lived time of adult happiness. Because IWRY does
> not exist in isolation. It's not just its own story. It's part of
> a narrative that's been going on for the past three years, and it
> makes that story richer at the same time as it completes it. I don't
> know if our heroes will meet again, but I think this is how it should
> end.
I pretty much agree with that.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
Hard one for me to rate. There are some serious negatives for me here. But
the joy in the center, the sense of closure and promise for something new,
and a smattering of good humor probably pushes it up just into the Good
zone.
OBS
Don Sample
"jil...@hotmail.com" <jil...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> For me, now, it was all about his fear of not being able to be strong
> enough to make a difference when Buffy needed him. All about not
> wanting to be that liability to her.
Angel's biggest liability is that he's an idiot.
Ian Galbraith
> Mike Zeares wrote:
>> I can't think of anything to say about your review except that I agree
>> with it...
>> We like melodrama, when it's done well, because it
>> works. It can sweep us up in the emotions.
> That's interesting, because in November 1999, you replied to Hines'
> IWRY review with this:
> "IWRY, on the other hand, had me rolling my eyes so
> much I got seasick. I was able to appreciate it as the
> obvious hand-out to B/A 'shippers it was, but when I
> realized that they were actually going to hit the Magic
> Reset Button, I suddenly began missing Cronan that
> much more. If there was ever a Whedon show that
> begged for one of his MiSTings, this was it."
I for one had the same reaction as Hines (one of the few times) at the
time the episode aired and haven't changed my opinion since. IMHO it was,
and remains, unadulterated melodramatic claptrap. But I was one who got
extremely bored with the back and forth between Angel and buffy in S3 of
Buffy.
--
You can't stop the signal
Kermit
> eli...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Also notice that Angel actually _told_ Doyle about what happened.
>
> When?
>
> -AOQ
>
Technically, that was a spoiler. A very very tiny spoiler, but a spoiler.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Which brings us to the whole paternal bit of Angel doing what's
> best for Buffy without discussing it with her - as in what brought her to
> town to begin with. I'm not sure what I think of this as regards the
> quality of the episode, but I do know that I don't much like Angel on this
> front. Less so now than ever. It bothers me that in the "forgotten"
> reality he told her just late enough to terrorize her last minute, and in
> the recovered reality Buffy is left morose and in the dark while Angel gets
> to retain the memory of their moment together. It's kind of depressing in
> an ugly way and left a bit of a sour taste in my mouth as the episode ended.
We all claim to like our flawed heroes, but it occurs to me that the
show is still being pretty gutsy putting the main character at odds
this way with someone whom most ATS viewers will know and love so well.
Some viewers might not be able to really forgive Angel for that. I
guess the writers figure enough others will fall for the charms of Mr.
Tall Dark And Flawed...
> > Beyond
> > the plot-based reasons that our lovers can't be lovers, this hits at
> > a character-based obstacle, a fundamental difference in attitudes. For
> > my money, it makes for a much more satisfying breakup episode than
> > anything else non-"Becoming." As much as I eventually grew to like
> > this particular romantic pairing, IWRY made me believe that going their
> > separate ways on their separate TV shows is better for both of them, in
> > a way I hadn't before.
>
> I can't characterize it as satisfying, but it did have its moments, and it
> does feel like closure, which is a relief for me.
Given the way the discussion in the old threads seems to have gone, I
kept expecting someone to bring up the "fanfic"/gift-for-the-'shippers
argument, but I guess perspective has won out over the years. I can't
imagine that most B/A fanfic so resoundingly closes the door on this
story. To me, IWRY says that B/A was a nice fantasy, but that it can't
happen. Move on, viewer. For the first time, I think I'll be
disappointed if the writers back out.
> Fealty? Now I know Doyle saw himself as serving the PTB, but had Angel
> really accepted that for himself - on such stark terms as fealty? Here, he
> doesn't say peep about it. I suppose he was distracted by the initial
> freedom. But doesn't the manner of his request for restoration imply
> acceptance of fealty now? Did the Oracles just play him into a greater
> promise than he knew? Or are we supposed to believe it had always been
> such?
Interesting thought. I think the second-to-last question would be my
favorite route, but who knows? Other than the people who've already
seen the whole series, I mean.
-AOQ
(Harmony) Watcher
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1146110557.8...@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later _Buffy_ and _Angel_
> episodes in these review threads
>
>
> ANGEL
> Season One, Episode 8: "I Will Remember You"
> (or "I'm PTB special agent Liam Angel. And today is the longest
> day of my life.")
> Writers: David Greenwalt and Jeanne Renshaw
> Director: David Grossman
>
>
> And of course, see the way he does it: once again it's a unilateral
> decision, making choices "for their own good" without consulting
> his better half, and ultimately cutting Buffy out of the loop entirely.
> The early scenes of the episode serve to not-so-subtly suggest that
> the plot-based reasons that our lovers can't be lovers, this hits at
> a character-based obstacle, a fundamental difference in attitudes.
>
it's forfeit by fiat (http://bdb.vrya.net/bdb/clip.php?clip=1338). At the
end of the day, he had no choice but to give Buffy all up a second time
because he must have remembered that he needed to *continue* to honor
Joyce's command. I wish the writers hadn't omitted to show that it was still
the most influential factor underlying Angel's unilateral decision.
<rest snipped>
==Harmony Watcher==
One Bit Shy
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>
>> Which brings us to the whole paternal bit of Angel doing what's
>> best for Buffy without discussing it with her - as in what brought her to
>> town to begin with. I'm not sure what I think of this as regards the
>> quality of the episode, but I do know that I don't much like Angel on
>> this
>> front. Less so now than ever. It bothers me that in the "forgotten"
>> reality he told her just late enough to terrorize her last minute, and in
>> the recovered reality Buffy is left morose and in the dark while Angel
>> gets
>> to retain the memory of their moment together. It's kind of depressing
>> in
>> an ugly way and left a bit of a sour taste in my mouth as the episode
>> ended.
>
> We all claim to like our flawed heroes, but it occurs to me that the
> show is still being pretty gutsy putting the main character at odds
> this way with someone whom most ATS viewers will know and love so well.
> Some viewers might not be able to really forgive Angel for that. I
> guess the writers figure enough others will fall for the charms of Mr.
> Tall Dark And Flawed...
We like them flawed in ways that please us.
Sour taste or not, I recognize the issue as substantive - something advanced
in this episdoe. Unlike rehashing the other aspects of the perpetual
break-up.
>> > Beyond
>> > the plot-based reasons that our lovers can't be lovers, this hits at
>> > a character-based obstacle, a fundamental difference in attitudes. For
>> > my money, it makes for a much more satisfying breakup episode than
>> > anything else non-"Becoming." As much as I eventually grew to like
>> > this particular romantic pairing, IWRY made me believe that going their
>> > separate ways on their separate TV shows is better for both of them, in
>> > a way I hadn't before.
>>
>> I can't characterize it as satisfying, but it did have its moments, and
>> it
>> does feel like closure, which is a relief for me.
>
> Given the way the discussion in the old threads seems to have gone, I
> kept expecting someone to bring up the "fanfic"/gift-for-the-'shippers
> argument, but I guess perspective has won out over the years. I can't
> imagine that most B/A fanfic so resoundingly closes the door on this
> story. To me, IWRY says that B/A was a nice fantasy, but that it can't
> happen. Move on, viewer. For the first time, I think I'll be
> disappointed if the writers back out.
I haven't read that much fanfic - what I have has mostly been related to
what you have yet to see. The ongoing issue that I noticed was more along
the lines of any guy Buffy looks sideways at not meeting Angel's standards.
As for gift-for-the-shippers, well, yeah. It is that any way you look at
it. Lickable. But I don't think it gets in the way of anything - including
the closure.
>> Fealty? Now I know Doyle saw himself as serving the PTB, but had Angel
>> really accepted that for himself - on such stark terms as fealty? Here,
>> he
>> doesn't say peep about it. I suppose he was distracted by the initial
>> freedom. But doesn't the manner of his request for restoration imply
>> acceptance of fealty now? Did the Oracles just play him into a greater
>> promise than he knew? Or are we supposed to believe it had always been
>> such?
>
> Interesting thought. I think the second-to-last question would be my
> favorite route, but who knows? Other than the people who've already
> seen the whole series, I mean.
It was the most intriguing thing in the episode to me. I had thought of
Angel as more of a free agent. Maybe doing some contract work as it were.
But maybe this is actually attractive to him. Amends suggests he sought not
only purpose but some kind of validation as a righteous man. It's hard to
get validation alone. But the Oracles don't strike me as exactly trust
worthy.
OBS
Mike Zeares
Heh heh. Hoist on my own Dejanews (old school). I have absolutely no
memory of writing that, nor of having that reaction. Actually, I have
no memory of a lot of the stuff I wrote back then. I was going to
Google more of my old posts, but a lot of them freak me out. I don't
know who that guy was, but he's not me. And it's not really that long
ago, which freaks me out more. I don't know what happened. Anyway, I
guess I did grow to like it. What else can I say?
I still miss Cronan.
-- Mike Zeares
eli...@gmail.com
I _did_ get it mixed up with the end of 'In The Dark'. Damn.
I offer many humble apologies to AOQ!
Espen Schjønberg
> In article <1146181454.0...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>,
> "jil...@hotmail.com" <jil...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>For me, now, it was all about his fear of not being able to be strong
>>enough to make a difference when Buffy needed him. All about not
>>wanting to be that liability to her.
>
>
> Angel's biggest liability is that he's an idiot.
I am afraid I am with you on that one.
BTW, what does "naming names" mean? Saw that in an other posting here,
and I don't get it.
--
Espen
Noe er Feil[tm]
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
Agreed that Buffy would still love him just as much. But it's easy for us
to say that; maybe not so easy for Angel to really believe it, without at
least a little nagging doubt.
But in my earlier post I was actually speculating about a different
possibility: maybe Angel was worried that their relationship would be
crippled because *his* attitude would change, not Buffy's. He wouldn't
stop loving her, of course. But once the thrill wore off, being demoted
from co-hero to sidekick could be a major blow to his ego. And watching
Buffy risk her life night after night might be doubly stressful for Angel
when he can no longer do nearly as much to help her as he used to. Over
time the stress from all this could lead to bitterness, depression,
self-loathing, and the like, and that could poison their relationship no
matter how much they still loved each other. Did Angel have the foresight
to imagine this possibility? And if so, was it a factor in his decision?
He never says anything along these lines, but if he didn't consider this
possibility, IMO he should have.
Steve Schaffner
[piggybacking]
I have to admit that I have such a visceral dislike for plots
involving memory wipes, and so little enthusiasm for getting
misty-eyed over doomed love (and I would -- I know I would), that I
have never watched this episode. I have it on my list of things to get
back to someday, when I'm in a really up mood and immune to despair,
along with reading all of Russian literature and going to a college
reunion.
--
Steve Schaffner s...@broad.mit.edu
Immediate assurance is an excellent sign of probable lack of
insight into the topic. Josiah Royce
Michael Ikeda
news:1252onf...@news.supernews.com:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1146110557.8...@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later _Buffy_ and _Angel_
>> episodes in these review threads
>>
>>
>> ANGEL
>> Season One, Episode 8: "I Will Remember You"
>> (or "I'm PTB special agent Liam Angel. And today is the
>> longest day of my life.")
>> Writers: David Greenwalt and Jeanne Renshaw
>> Director: David Grossman
>>
>
> I don't think I'd term it quite that way, but from that choice
> I'd take the second. Which brings us to the whole paternal bit
> of Angel doing what's best for Buffy without discussing it with
> her - as in what brought her to town to begin with. I'm not
> sure what I think of this as regards the quality of the episode,
> but I do know that I don't much like Angel on this front. Less
> so now than ever. It bothers me that in the "forgotten" reality
> he told her just late enough to terrorize her last minute, and
> in the recovered reality Buffy is left morose and in the dark
> while Angel gets to retain the memory of their moment together.
> It's kind of depressing in an ugly way and left a bit of a sour
> taste in my mouth as the episode ended.
>
Angel would probably characterize it as Buffy getting the privilege
of forgetting while he is forced to remember.
Two notes:
1) I don't think that Angel really WANTED to tell Buffy what was
about to happen. It was more that he needed to get there before the
switchback and simply wasn't capable of concealing it from her when
he was pressed.
2) There is the point that, at the time Angel made the decision it
wasn't actually possible to consult Buffy. On the other hand, there
wasn't anything in particular that would have prevented him from
talking over some possibilities with Buffy BEFORE he went to the
Oracles. Whether he would have guessed that a "temporal fold" was
one of the options is another question.
>
> Fealty? Now I know Doyle saw himself as serving the PTB, but
> had Angel really accepted that for himself - on such stark terms
> as fealty? Here, he doesn't say peep about it. I suppose he
> was distracted by the initial freedom. But doesn't the manner
> of his request for restoration imply acceptance of fealty now?
> Did the Oracles just play him into a greater promise than he
> knew? Or are we supposed to believe it had always been such?
One interesting thought is that perhaps something like this was the
reason for Doyle's vision of Buffy. The Powers manuevering Angel
into breaking ties with an important part of his past.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
KenM47
Arbitrar Of Quality
And if you buy that, it makes "Pangs" work that much better too. It's
not really clear (could've used just one line about how Hus wasn't
really all that scary, relatively speaking, I wonder why I was sent
there... yeah, me and my need to have things hinted at), but worth
thinking about.
-AOQ
Shuggie
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later _Buffy_ and _Angel_
> episodes in these review threads
>
>
> ANGEL
> Season One, Episode 8: "I Will Remember You"
> (or "I'm PTB special agent Liam Angel. And today is the longest
> day of my life.")
> Writers: David Greenwalt and Jeanne Renshaw
> Director: David Grossman
>
> is melodramatic as hell here,
Some? SOME??
> I feel like this episode will be one of the devisive ones. Taken in
> isolation, there are myriad complaints that could be leveled at it.
> Most obvious are the melodrama factor discussed above, and the fact
> that the ending could be accused of either a deus ex machina or a reset
> button (depending on which one you dislike more).
It's not necessarily either of those, but it's how we get there - see
below.
> And it doesn't
> matter to me. Angel and Buffy have suffered enough and made me care
> enough that they've earned the right to a little melodrama, a little
> magic, and a short-lived time of adult happiness.
Well I look at it from the point of view of story and you have to earn
the big moments. IWRY just doesn't.
> Because IWRY does
> not exist in isolation. It's not just its own story. It's part of
> a narrative that's been going on for the past three years, and it
> makes that story richer at the same time as it completes it. I don't
> know if our heroes will meet again, but I think this is how it should
> end.
>
I can't ignore the huge dumbness the plots relies on just because it's a
nice ending for Angel and Buffy.
>
Here's what I thought back in 2002:
"The main reason I dislike IWRY is that not only is it overly
sentimental and emotionally manipulative but that it does back-flips
around continuity and logic in order to set up the plot.
Angel going after the Mohra demon without Buffy makes no sense. "I'm
human now so I'll go after one of the most powerful demons we ever seen
alone because I don't want to wake my Slayer-girlfriend - 8/10 for
romantic intent, 0/10 for common sense.
Angel giving up his humanity because it puts Buffy in danger is stupid
too. She's the Slayer - danger's going to find her no matter what he
does."
and...
"It's not because it has a reset button. It's the contrivance you have
to go through to push the reset button. Angel has to become an idiot for
not realizing that Buffy is going to be in danger whatever he does, and
he has to put the 'mission' above his love for her - which given the
amount of gooey-eyed love in this episode (and what we've seen of him
before and since) is a stretch to say the least.
I never minded the Angel/Buffy romance. At times it worked well. What
this episode does is sacrifice everything at the altar of setting that
romance up again in order to take it away. I'll pass. "
--
Shuggie
my blog - http://shuggie.livejournal.com/
Slayah
> I haven't read other posts yet. Maybe someone else mentions this. So,
> IIRC, there was a rumor that CC was soundly PO'd at SMG or vice
> versa. They, or one of them, refused to do scenes together. There are
> no scenes where both of their faces are seen together. I imagine there
> was another reason, scheduling or something, but the rumor was fun.
There is the brief scene of them together, although it's CC's back,
walking out with Doyle right after she says something like "and this is
us leaving." I don't think it was a body double, but maybe it was. What
were they fighting about?
Slayah
> I never minded the Angel/Buffy romance. At times it worked well. What
> this episode does is sacrifice everything at the altar of setting that
> romance up again in order to take it away. I'll pass. "
It was written by Jeannine Renshaw and David Greenwalt, but that's
classic Whedon. It must have been his idea.
Slayah
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote
>> Cordelia has a killer line about the two jobs she's able to do that
>> had Mrs. Quality laughing uncontrollably for about a minute.
International superstardom, and helping a vampire with a soul to rid the
world of evil.
> Right before that is the line that made me laugh out loud...
>
> Doyle: I'm finally free to go out in the world and make me own mark
> in the world.
> Cordy: We had a cat that used to do that.
I like
Doyle: So, that's the Slayer.
Cordelia: That's our little Buffy.
Doyle: Well, she seemed a little...
Cordelia: Bulgarian in that outfit?
and
Oh my god! She killed him! (touches dust) Oops. My bad. It's just dust.
I forgot to clean under the rug.
Harmony Watcher
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later _Buffy_ and _Angel_
> episodes in these review threads
>
>
> ANGEL
> Season One, Episode 8: "I Will Remember You"
> (or "I'm PTB special agent Liam Angel. And today is the longest
> day of my life.")
> Writers: David Greenwalt and Jeanne Renshaw
> Director: David Grossman
>
> Anyone else get a craving for chocolate and peanut butter?
> <snip>
Any discussion in this thread on the issue of Cordy being blamed for
having peanut butter on Angel's bed? What's the latest consensus, if
any, on this?
==(Harmony) Watcher==
Arbitrar Of Quality
Harmony Watcher wrote:
> Any discussion in this thread on the issue of Cordy being blamed for
> having peanut butter on Angel's bed? What's the latest consensus, if
> any, on this?
It came up briefly and flippantly. If it matters, my stance is that
it's Angel's bed, so within it's confines, he's the sole arbiter of
peanut butter. Anyone want to disagree?
-AOQ
One Bit Shy
news:1148112127.4...@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Well, I did say:
> (Angel doesn't seem to mind Buffy having peanut butter in his bed. I tell
> you, Cordelia gets no respect.)
But I don't think it rose to the level of genuine controversy. Do you think
Cordy is innocent? That Buffy has secretly been sneaking in so she can eat
peanut butter in Angel's bed? (That would be a curious fetish.)
OBS
Mel
I don't think it's been mentioned before now. I noticed that too and
wondered whether a) the episodes were shown out of sequence or b) the
Oracles sent the pb into the past by mistake. Angel didn't know how it
got there so the events of IWRY hadn't happened yet. Of course, there's
always option c) Cordy did it and denied everything.
Mel
Arbitrar Of Quality
Mel wrote:
> Harmony Watcher wrote:
> > Any discussion in this thread on the issue of Cordy being blamed for
> > having peanut butter on Angel's bed? What's the latest consensus, if
> > any, on this?
>
> I don't think it's been mentioned before now. I noticed that too and
> wondered whether a) the episodes were shown out of sequence
That's a joke, right?
> or b) the
> Oracles sent the pb into the past by mistake. Angel didn't know how it
> got there so the events of IWRY hadn't happened yet. Of course, there's
> always option c) Cordy did it and denied everything.
And c) is of course such a horribly far-fetched outlandish possibility
given her behavior throughout RWAV.
-AOQ
(Harmony) Watcher
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1148158610.8...@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
So you'd like option (b) then? When I browsed through old archives of this
newsgroup, there were some past discussions on whether it might have been
caused by the Oracles. Perhaps they took away two days instead of one day by
mistake. [My own fancy version: The CSD (Chronons Sucking Demon)--a
single-horn furry little pet of the Oracles--ate one day too many when the
Oracles were not looking--because it was starving.]
==(Harmony) Watcher==
Mel
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Mel wrote:
>
>>Harmony Watcher wrote:
>
>
>>>Any discussion in this thread on the issue of Cordy being blamed for
>>>having peanut butter on Angel's bed? What's the latest consensus, if
>>>any, on this?
>>
>>I don't think it's been mentioned before now. I noticed that too and
>>wondered whether a) the episodes were shown out of sequence
>
>
> That's a joke, right?
Some shows are written/filmed in one order and then shown in another.
Don't tell me you've never heard of that happening???
>
>
>>or b) the
>>Oracles sent the pb into the past by mistake. Angel didn't know how it
>>got there so the events of IWRY hadn't happened yet. Of course, there's
>>always option c) Cordy did it and denied everything.
>
>
> And c) is of course such a horribly far-fetched outlandish possibility
> given her behavior throughout RWAV.
>
> -AOQ
>
No, it's totally fetched, and also the most likely explanation.
Mel
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > Mel wrote:
> >>>Any discussion in this thread on the issue of Cordy being blamed for
> >>>having peanut butter on Angel's bed? What's the latest consensus, if
> >>>any, on this?
> >>
> >>I don't think it's been mentioned before now. I noticed that too and
> >>wondered whether a) the episodes were shown out of sequence
> >
> >
> > That's a joke, right?
> Some shows are written/filmed in one order and then shown in another.
> Don't tell me you've never heard of that happening???
Sure, I just don't know how the tiny reference to peanut butter would
be enough to make one doubt the obvious facts that RWAV comes fifth (or
definitely before "The Bachelor Party," in any case), and that IWRY
immediately precedes "Hero."
> >>or b) the
> >>Oracles sent the pb into the past by mistake. Angel didn't know how it
> >>got there so the events of IWRY hadn't happened yet. Of course, there's
> >>always option c) Cordy did it and denied everything.
> >
> >
> > And c) is of course such a horribly far-fetched outlandish possibility
> > given her behavior throughout RWAV.
> >
> > -AOQ
> >
> No, it's totally fetched, and also the most likely explanation.
In case anyone didn't gather that, I was being heavily sarcastic. My
point being that I have no clue why we're still talking about this,
given that Cordelia obviously did it and ther'es no deeper meaning to
the recurring peanut butter other than as an in-joke.
-AOQ
(Harmony) Watcher
Cordy was known to be a lot of things, but lying was not one of them. Which
one is more likely? Cordy eating peanut butter cookies in Angel's bed when
he wasn't around, or Buffy and Angel dropping peanut butter on Angel's bed
when the two were in wild abandon?
We had solid evidence that both Buffy and Angel ate food, among other
things, in Angel's bed. We had solid evidence that peanut butter were their
favorites. We don't have evidence that Cordy was in Angel's bed. We had
solid evidence that the Oracles could turn back time. In the land of
make-belief, you'd think an uninteresting answer, in the presence of other
crazier possibilities, is an unlikely answer?
==Harmony Watcher==
Arbitrar Of Quality
(Harmony) Watcher wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1148177709.1...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
I'm pretty sure you're joking at this point, but why not, I'll play
along.
> > In case anyone didn't gather that, I was being heavily sarcastic. My
> > point being that I have no clue why we're still talking about this,
> > given that Cordelia obviously did it and ther'es no deeper meaning to
> > the recurring peanut butter other than as an in-joke.
> >
>
> Cordy was known to be a lot of things, but lying was not one of them. Which
> one is more likely? Cordy eating peanut butter cookies in Angel's bed when
> he wasn't around, or Buffy and Angel dropping peanut butter on Angel's bed
> when the two were in wild abandon?
It's not an either/or. We know Cordelia got peanut butter on the
sheets, and we'll never know whether Buffy did too because that day was
taken back, making laundry easier.
> We had solid evidence that both Buffy and Angel ate food, among other
> things, in Angel's bed. We had solid evidence that peanut butter were their
> favorites. We don't have evidence that Cordy was in Angel's bed.
Other than the part where she was, in RWAV?
We had
> solid evidence that the Oracles could turn back time. In the land of
> make-belief, you'd think an uninteresting answer, in the presence of other
> crazier possibilities, is an unlikely answer?
At this point you're abusing logic (and conflating "stupid" with
"interesting"). The idea of the Oracles not only taking back a day but
also moving a blob of peanut butter *weeks* back in time for no
discernable reason... well, I'm pretty sure you're joking, so enough.
-AOQ
(Harmony) Watcher
apologize and can only chalk it up to too much caffeine and insufficient
sleep. But that does not detract from the following principles that I think
might be summarized as "a little paranoia keeps us, the readers, on our
toes":
As in murder mysteries, all little "things" in
the land of make-belief should be suspect lest we
fall prey to complacency and may miss important
clues that the writer(s) *may* be dropping in the
plot from time to time. An important difference
between the former and the latter categories is
that once you grant that a kiss can turn a frog
into a prince, "common sense" goes out the
window, so to speak.
> well, I'm pretty sure you're joking, so enough.
>
OK, I was only *half*-joking in my previous post. I was not serious about my
proposed answer. But I am skeptical about Cordy lying (until Joss comes out
and says so). "Cordy did it" was too "lazy" an answer for my tastes.
As the saying goes: If you eliminate the impossible, whatever
remains--however improbable--must be the truth." I'm sure many fans can cook
up many more plausible and interesting answers than the silly one I gave
earlier. Actually I have two better ones, but never mind... I'm usually not
serious about my own crazy fanfics, but I usually use them to illustrate a
POV.
By-and-large, I think I watched AtS with, perhaps, a bit too much
"paranoia", asking one too many "who'd done it", after I missed a few
important points from BtVS.
==Harmony Watcher==