AOQ Review 6-2: "After Life"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Six, Episode 2: "After Life"
(or "The price is wrong!")
Writer: Jane Espenson
Director: David Solomon
All right, so Buffy's home and Dawn has managed to wring a few words
out of her. She's still doing that distant look in the opening
scene, so it's strange when she's suddenly talking in complete
sentences again after that. The atmosphere during this sequence makes
it grab the viewer's attention. Buffy looks so much like she should
be in a catatonic stupor that the her dialogue is arresting in a
crane-forward-to-catch-every-mumbled-word way. Even though we still
don't get to know what she's experiencing yet, this is much more
consistently interesting than last week. Dawn's trying to play mom
is sort of a followup to a thread started in "Forever." The
self-disgust works on "yeah, I never thought it was funny either."
Seeing Spike being what snaps Buffy into the need to finish getting
dressed is also a nice moment, with the moodiness being enough to choke
out most of the sexual edge to it that might have otherwise emerged.
I don't much care for the way the rest of Buffy's friends come
across as the bumbling clueless types during the group scenes. Seeing
them crowd around Buffy like that, oblivious... I feel like they should
know better. One thing we haven't really discussed with these
reviews is whether viewers ever felt that the characters they'd
gotten so attached to in S1-4 were being pushed out of the way in favor
of Dawn the new kid (and Spike the ex-villain too, to a degree). That
generally hasn't bothered me greatly, but I was feeling a little
annoyed by that this week.
At least Spike's role in the episode leads to a few great scenes when
he puts things together. How about his conversation with Xander in
which he shoves the latter into the wall? It's an accomplishment in
and of itself to have Spoik be the one having a burst of righteous
anger, and have it feel entirely convincing. Marsters does his usual
strong job using gestures and facial expressions to say a lot.
"Listen. I've figured it out. Maybe you haven't, but I have. Willow
knew there was a chance that she'd come back wrong. So wrong that
you'd have ... that she would have to get rid of what came back. And I
wouldn't let her. If any part of that was Buffy, I wouldn't let her.
And that's why she shut me out." A very strong moment, but that's
part performance; just typing it out doesn't do it justice. And yes,
is indeed totally like Willow to behave that way.
Also, don't know if it's always been this way, but I just noticed
that Spike doesn't dye his eyebrows the way he does his hair. It
looks pretty silly in the close-ups.
Okay, shouldn't the marks on Buffy's knuckles heal faster? She's
the Slayer. She shows no sign of bruising five minutes after getting
punched in the face, and has recovered from life-threatening injuries
or blood loss overnight.
There's one idea that I especially liked among the Scoobies'
scenes: the premise that Tara would try to designate the room she and
Willow share (weird that they'd have moved in, but I guess it makes
sense) as a safe place for her girlfriend to let her hair down and talk
openly about her concerns. Maybe it'll help alleviate her tendency
to let things fester. And what makes that part play even better is the
irony that Tara can't seem to reciprocate that openness. That's
how it seems to me, anyway. It might actually be how she feels, but it
looks like she's burying any concerns she might have about Willow's
powers or decisions behind standard "it's all right" type
blather.
The proximate villain and the proximate price for bringing Buffy back
is a hitchhiker demon. The presentation of this plot is something of a
mixed bag. On the plus side, the images of it scurrying around are
good (probably not a coincidence that it looks so much like the bulge
under Willow's skin from the premiere), and it's fun watching the
heroes try to categorize (i.e. excluding a traditional haunting based
on location). The Photographs Of Dead People (isn't that a later
episode?) are quite nice. On the more mixed side, the idea of the
demon speaking through the main characters is cool in theory, but the
"you're like children" speeches left me pretty cold. Gellar
(oddly) in particular doesn't do a very good job with it, and once
the enemy starts speaking in its own voice, it's not all that much
better. The attempts to misdirect regarding who'll be possessed next
aren't so special, but I do like Dawn's reaction afterward. The
culmination, which is pretty okay, involves the Slayer back to
bare-handed fighting against an enemy that she can't touch at first.
But persistence and having others working on the case pays off...
could've done without the extended chanting, though. Overall, the
extra-dimensional visitor is kind of a by-the-numbers monster that
serves its purpose of giving the team something to fight while
Buffy's ongoing readjustment continues to be the real story.
After the mention of how the others need to see her smile, of course,
one has to note that she hasn't smiled since the resurrection (as far
as I recall), and no, those feeble efforts when thanking the others
don't count. The scene is interesting enough on its own, but it of
course leads in to the revelation of what she's holding back about.
The gratitude is real, at least, and even more so once viewed in light
of the ending. The way she considers anything preferable to hurting
them with the truth is the biggest indication we've had post-return
of how much she still cares about them, and one of the few times in
which I can't blame a character for lying.
I feel like someone made a comment awhile ago about the earlier seasons
of BTVS having more conversations and the later ones tending more
towards unnatural monologues. That hadn't really seemed noteworthy
before, but now the last few episodes have been noticeably heavy on the
speaking in monologues. In these circumstances, Buffy's closing
ramble does seem appropriate. Plus this particular speech is, you
know, interesting. But that has been a trend of late.
But let's talk about that. Again, the series comes up with a way to
make a surprise revelation out of something deceptively obvious. She
got ripped out of heaven, or someplace of that ilk. Well, that's one
of those twists that makes sense out of everything, so as to
retroactively make a good episode better, while making the viewer
wonder how he could have failed to consider that. "Is this hell?"
Well, by comparison... Having Spike be the one that she opens up to
about it feels oddly right, if only because he has some experience with
being dead. Their earlier scene together sort of sets the stage for
this transparency between them. And it's generally in keeping with
how Buffy tends to react when "not a soul" can know about something
- open up to someone a little bit outside the core group of friends.
Someone who wears a flapping black coat, if available. He seems as
seriously surprised by it as anyone.
This is the first Giles-free episode of the series, I believe. They
keep telling us that He Is Coming Back, though...
What's strange is, this didn't strike me as a particularly funny
episode, but it actually has lots of good lines slipped in there:
- "I think I actually heard him cleaning his glasses."
- "Wrong! Different brains." "Oh yeah."
- "I found one of those 24-hour places for coffee. Remember that
bookstore? Well they became one of those books-and-coffee places, and
now they're just coffee. It's like evolution, only without the
getting-better part."
- "She's right, you're like a snail. A snail who's driving a car
very slowly."
- "Those of us who fail history? Doomed to repeat it in summer
school."
So...
One-sentence summary: Food for thought.
AOQ rating: Good
[Season Six so far:
1) "Bargaining" - Decent
2) "After Life" - Good]
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> make a surprise revelation out of something deceptively obvious. She
> got ripped out of heaven, or someplace of that ilk. Well, that's one
> of those twists that makes sense out of everything, so as to
> retroactively make a good episode better, while making the viewer
> wonder how he could have failed to consider that. "Is this hell?"
try waiting for the story to unfold
instead of getting impatient if you dont get all the answers at once
the reason why buffy had such flat affect in the episode before
is she couldnt understand why she has been damned to life
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Kermit
it as 6-2 oddly disturbing, in a completely trivial way of course. :)
Apteryx
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> across as the bumbling clueless types during the group scenes. Seeing
> them crowd around Buffy like that, oblivious... I feel like they should
> know better.
I dunno. They've been through a lot themselves. I can see why they
wouldn't be too quick on the uptake. Dawn and Spike don't pester her
the same, but then they are in shock just from seeing her.
> Okay, shouldn't the marks on Buffy's knuckles heal faster? She's
> the Slayer. She shows no sign of bruising five minutes after getting
> punched in the face, and has recovered from life-threatening injuries
> or blood loss overnight.
Hmm, variable fighting abilities and now varyiable healing abilites.
Certainly she needed to keep those marks long enough for Spike to see
them and point out that new bond between them.
> There's one idea that I especially liked among the Scoobies'
> scenes: the premise that Tara would try to designate the room she and
> Willow share (weird that they'd have moved in, but I guess it makes
> sense) as a safe place for her girlfriend to let her hair down and talk
> openly about her concerns. Maybe it'll help alleviate her tendency
> to let things fester. And what makes that part play even better is the
> irony that Tara can't seem to reciprocate that openness. That's
> how it seems to me, anyway. It might actually be how she feels, but it
> looks like she's burying any concerns she might have about Willow's
> powers or decisions behind standard "it's all right" type
> blather.
Tara may be diplomatic and indirect, but I don't think she's as
actively hiding what she feels as Willow has been.
> The proximate villain and the proximate price for bringing Buffy back
> is a hitchhiker demon.
Technically they found out it wasn't really a hitchhiker but a demon
Willow made - by thaumogenesis apparently (or a demon "we made" as
Willow puts it)
> The presentation of this plot is something of a
> mixed bag. On the plus side, the images of it scurrying around are
> good (probably not a coincidence that it looks so much like the bulge
> under Willow's skin from the premiere), and it's fun watching the
> heroes try to categorize (i.e. excluding a traditional haunting based
> on location). The Photographs Of Dead People (isn't that a later
> episode?) are quite nice. On the more mixed side, the idea of the
> demon speaking through the main characters is cool in theory, but the
> "you're like children" speeches left me pretty cold. Gellar
> (oddly) in particular doesn't do a very good job with it, and once
> the enemy starts speaking in its own voice, it's not all that much
> better. The attempts to misdirect regarding who'll be possessed next
> aren't so special, but I do like Dawn's reaction afterward. The
> culmination, which is pretty okay, involves the Slayer back to
> bare-handed fighting against an enemy that she can't touch at first.
> But persistence and having others working on the case pays off...
> could've done without the extended chanting, though. Overall, the
> extra-dimensional visitor is kind of a by-the-numbers monster that
> serves its purpose of giving the team something to fight while
> Buffy's ongoing readjustment continues to be the real story.
The monster is an annoyance to me. It's not much fun and just seems to
get in the way of the story.
> After the mention of how the others need to see her smile, of course,
> one has to note that she hasn't smiled since the resurrection (as far
> as I recall), and no, those feeble efforts when thanking the others
> don't count. The scene is interesting enough on its own, but it of
> course leads in to the revelation of what she's holding back about.
> The gratitude is real, at least, and even more so once viewed in light
> of the ending.
Even her words take on a new light following the ending - eg "Okay. So
you did that. And the world came rushing back. Thank you. You guys gave
me the world. I can't tell you what it means to me"
> The way she considers anything preferable to hurting
> them with the truth is the biggest indication we've had post-return
> of how much she still cares about them, and one of the few times in
> which I can't blame a character for lying.
>
> I feel like someone made a comment awhile ago about the earlier seasons
> of BTVS having more conversations and the later ones tending more
> towards unnatural monologues. That hadn't really seemed noteworthy
> before, but now the last few episodes have been noticeably heavy on the
> speaking in monologues. In these circumstances, Buffy's closing
> ramble does seem appropriate. Plus this particular speech is, you
> know, interesting. But that has been a trend of late.
>
> But let's talk about that. Again, the series comes up with a way to
> make a surprise revelation out of something deceptively obvious. She
> got ripped out of heaven, or someplace of that ilk. Well, that's one
> of those twists that makes sense out of everything, so as to
> retroactively make a good episode better, while making the viewer
> wonder how he could have failed to consider that.
You have to wonder what it says about a person that all her friends
just naturally assumed that she went to Hell when she died :)
> "Is this hell?"
> Well, by comparison... Having Spike be the one that she opens up to
> about it feels oddly right, if only because he has some experience with
> being dead. Their earlier scene together sort of sets the stage for
> this transparency between them. And it's generally in keeping with
> how Buffy tends to react when "not a soul" can know about something
> - open up to someone a little bit outside the core group of friends.
> Someone who wears a flapping black coat, if available. He seems as
> seriously surprised by it as anyone.
One more thing Spike is useful for now
>
> What's strange is, this didn't strike me as a particularly funny
> episode, but it actually has lots of good lines slipped in there:
That's why they call it "comic relief". In a flat out silly episode,
you don't need it, here you do. Plus its a Jane Espenson episode :)
> - "I think I actually heard him cleaning his glasses."
> - "Wrong! Different brains." "Oh yeah."
> - "I found one of those 24-hour places for coffee. Remember that
> bookstore? Well they became one of those books-and-coffee places, and
> now they're just coffee. It's like evolution, only without the
> getting-better part."
> - "She's right, you're like a snail. A snail who's driving a car
> very slowly."
> - "Those of us who fail history? Doomed to repeat it in summer
> school."
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Food for thought.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
Good for me too. It's dragged down a bit by the pointless monster, but
the development of the Buffy story is certainly worth a Good. It's my
72nd favourite BtVS episode, 8th best in season 6.
Apteryx
Don Sample
"Apteryx" <Apte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
> >
> > Okay, shouldn't the marks on Buffy's knuckles heal faster? She's
> > the Slayer. She shows no sign of bruising five minutes after getting
> > punched in the face, and has recovered from life-threatening injuries
> > or blood loss overnight.
>
> Hmm, variable fighting abilities and now varyiable healing abilites.
> Certainly she needed to keep those marks long enough for Spike to see
> them and point out that new bond between them.
And it hasn't been all that long since she clawed her way out of her
grave. It's still the same night. We've seen her with cuts and bruises
that took a day or two to heal.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Elisi
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 2: "After Life"
> (or "The price is wrong!")
> Writer: Jane Espenson
> Director: David Solomon
First I will also ask you to call it episode 3. Or we will all be
confused! :)
And then, because I'm busy (school holidays have started, *sigh*), I'll
do a copy and paste of my friend Molly_May's review of this episode
(snipping spoilers of course):
"I love this episode. It's not flashy or exciting, and the MOTW is
entirely beside the point, but it serves as a beautiful character
study, not just for Spike and Buffy (though most powerfully for them),
but also for Xander and Willow.
Xander thinks that now that Buffy is back everything will go back to
normal again, or as normal as it gets on the Hellmouth: Buffy will be
fine in a week, because Buffy always recovers from the things that
devastate her. Spike will be an evil stalker again, because he's a
vampire, and that's what vampires do. And Willow will be nice, safe,
sweet, Willow again, minus the ruthless streak and the risk-taking that
Xander doesn't want to let himself see in her, not even after Spike
points it out to him. It's a testament to Xander's private fears about
Willow that he goes to Tara after it becomes apparent that there are
consequences to the spell they performed and asks her it Willow could
have known this would happen. Of course, going to Tara for criticism of
Willow is pointless, and Xander probably is counting on that, knowing
that she'll assure him that Willow would never do anything that would
hurt anyone. Xander needs that assurance. He needs for Buffy to be the
hero and for Spike to be the villain and for Willow to be his
altruistic best friend.
Willow is right away defensive about the idea that something might have
gone wrong with the spell and that Buffy might be "broken". After they
find Buffy and have settled in for the night, she seems to be showing
some sensitivity to Buffy's feelings, wondering "shouldn't she be
happier?", but Tara pinpoints that what's really bothering Willow is
that Buffy hasn't thanked her. This is a breathtakingly selfish thing
to be accused of, but Willow doesn't deny it, and indeed confirms that
Buffy's failure to thank her is the thing bothering her the most,
indicating a rather stunning amount of self-righteousness and smugness
within Willow. There's no question in Willow's mind that she might have
been wrong about where Buffy was spending her afterlife, or that
something might have gone wrong with the spell. After the figment of
Buffy appears in their bedroom and accuses Willow and Tara of being
"filthy little bitches" and alludes to Willow's sacrifice of the deer,
Tara asks her what the faux!Buffy was talking about, and Willow lies
and says she doesn't know. Willow assures everyone that all they have
to do is "kill the beastie" and everything will be fine, though her
confidence does seem to temporarily waver. She's sensitive to any
possibility of criticism - when Buffy says that she misses Giles,
Willow automatically takes that to mean that Buffy thinks she isn't
doing as good a job with the research as Giles would do when what Buffy
really means is that she misses Giles. By the end of the episode Buffy
has indeed thanked Willow for bringing her back, thereby assuring
Willow that she was right all along.
Buffy herself seems at first disoriented, and then mostly detached from
everything that's going on around her. The only moment in the episode
that she truly seems to feel a connection with anyone is when Spike is
holding her hands and she asks him how long she's been gone. She loses
focuses in the middle of sentences and cringes when Dawn turns on the
lights in the house. Dawn, incidentally, is at her best in this
episode, trying to take care of and protect Buffy.
The scene on the stairs between Buffy and Spike is very similar to the
scene they share together in The Gift, except in that scene Buffy was
going up the stairs, away from him, and in this one she's coming down
the stairs, towards him. I love every single thing about this scene -
Spike going from blustering threats to Dawn to awed silence as he
realizes that Buffy is real, Dawn telling Spike that Buffy is okay,
then asking if he's okay, Buffy buttoning up her shirt, then hiding her
hands behind her back when Spike asks about her wounds, and especially
the range of emotions that passes over Spike's face as he realizes that
Buffy is alive. When they sit together in the living room holding
hands, Buffy seems to be engaged with another person for the first time
since her resurrection. And then the Scoobies burst in, breaking the
spell. There is a startling contrast between the quiet solicitude and
affection between Buffy, Spike, and Dawn and the bustling Scoobies.
Later, Buffy visits Spike in his crypt. Moments before she gets there,
Spike smashes his hand into the crypt wall, giving himself a wound to
match hers. It's vaguely reminiscent of School Hard, when Dru leaves a
bloody scratch on Spike's face and a couple of scenes later Buffy is
shown with a swath of red paint in the exact same spot on her cheek.
Spike again mentions Buffy's hands, and she again puts them behind her
back. He has a guilty conscience - he seems to feel that she's there to
reproach him for not rescuing Dawn before Doc could cut her. He tells
her "Every night I save you", and how different that must be for Spike,
who in the past probably spent every night fantasizing about how to
kill her. Buffy isn't there to reproach him, though. I think she's
there seeking the connection she felt with him the night before, when
he was trying to take care of her. If I could change one thing about
this episode, it would be a miniscule change: I would hold on the two
of them looking at each other for just a couple of seconds after he
finishes speaking. The scene cuts too quickly from them to the Scoobies
working in the Magic Box. I would like to have seen him realize that
she was there because she wanted to be with him, not because she was
angry with him about what happened on the tower.
At the end of the episode we see that Willow, apparently not content
with just sacrificing a deer, has murdered Elmo and taken his pelt to
wear as a shirt. She finally gets what she's been waiting for when
Buffy thanks her and even tells her that she should have thanked her
earlier. There's a group hug that Buffy escapes from as fast as she
can, and she goes outside to find the one person that she can be alone
with. She tells Spike the truth about where she was, because she has to
tell someone and he seems to be the only one who will understand. The
last thing she says to him before she walks off into the hard, bright,
sunlight is "They can never know", binding him into a promise to keep
her secret from the Scoobies.
Randomly:
Anya possessed by the demon, cutting her face and laughing is one of
the creepiest scenes ever.
That's a lovely shot of Buffy walking through the cemetery with the
angel wings behind her."
~~~~~~~
> Overall, the
> extra-dimensional visitor is kind of a by-the-numbers monster that
> serves its purpose of giving the team something to fight while
> Buffy's ongoing readjustment continues to be the real story.
A final note - in this episode we see a change from BtVS previously.
Usually (not always, but usually), the MOTW is a metaphor for the
characters problems. They face the beastie, kill it, and in the process
work through their own issues. 'Afterlife' is different in this
respect, as you noted. There is a connection of sorts, and the demon
thingy adresses Buffy's problem, but nothing is resolved by the end.
This problem is too big for a simple metaphor.
Also that last scene with Spike and Buffy is interesting. Buffy says "I
can be _alone_ with you here." What does that mean in terms of how she
sees Spike? (I don't really have an answer for that btw, it just always
struck me as intruiging.)
Espen Schjønberg
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 2: "After Life"
> (or "The price is wrong!")
> Writer: Jane Espenson
> Director: David Solomon
Because of the double season-opener, I have always referred to this one
as 6x03.
Calling Houston...
What do the others here think?
> One-sentence summary: Food for thought.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
It's a good and creepy one.
--
Espen
Ken from Chicago
"Apteryx" <Apte...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154327504.1...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
They are used to Buffy being the one to take everything in stride, be the
big leader and hero and savior. That she'd actually be out of her depth in
shock probably would have eventually come to them, especially Tara.
Second to Spike, she is the most "outsider" of the Scoobies, and more likely
to be observant of things the others take for granted or simply assume.
She'd have been the first to notice Buffy's hesistance.
After Tara, is Anya, and had Tara not been there, Anya might have noticed
Buffy's hesistance, tho lacking Tara's sensitivity, she probably would have
just blurted out that Buffy might be in shock from the whole death and
raising thing.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154334086.9...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
> A final note - in this episode we see a change from BtVS previously.
> Usually (not always, but usually), the MOTW is a metaphor for the
> characters problems. They face the beastie, kill it, and in the process
> work through their own issues. 'Afterlife' is different in this
> respect, as you noted. There is a connection of sorts, and the demon
> thingy adresses Buffy's problem, but nothing is resolved by the end.
> This problem is too big for a simple metaphor.
Yet another of the flaws seen so far this season.
> Also that last scene with Spike and Buffy is interesting. Buffy says "I
> can be _alone_ with you here." What does that mean in terms of how she
> sees Spike? (I don't really have an answer for that btw, it just always
> struck me as intruiging.)
That's obvious, in viewing Spike as a sounding board, a means to an end, a
"tool" if you will, and much less about considering his feelings.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Espen Schjønberg" <ess...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:eakh2e$5kn$1...@readme.uio.no...
Kinda like referring to "The Witch" as "1x03"?
-- Ken from Chicago
Elisi
> > A final note - in this episode we see a change from BtVS previously.
> > Usually (not always, but usually), the MOTW is a metaphor for the
> > characters problems. They face the beastie, kill it, and in the process
> > work through their own issues. 'Afterlife' is different in this
> > respect, as you noted. There is a connection of sorts, and the demon
> > thingy adresses Buffy's problem, but nothing is resolved by the end.
> > This problem is too big for a simple metaphor.
>
> Yet another of the flaws seen so far this season.
I see it as a strength.
alphakitten
>
> Okay, shouldn't the marks on Buffy's knuckles heal faster?
That doesn't bother me. The fact that the white shirt she's put on with
those bloody knuckles remains spotless, bugs me a little. It's silly, I
know, but still. And as long as I'm bitching about clothes...that toilet
seat cover looking thing Willow wears at the end...I still have nightmares.
> What's strange is, this didn't strike me as a particularly funny
> episode, but it actually has lots of good lines slipped in there:
> - "I think I actually heard him cleaning his glasses."
> - "Wrong! Different brains." "Oh yeah."
> - "I found one of those 24-hour places for coffee. Remember that
> bookstore? Well they became one of those books-and-coffee places, and
> now they're just coffee. It's like evolution, only without the
> getting-better part."
> - "She's right, you're like a snail. A snail who's driving a car
> very slowly."
> - "Those of us who fail history? Doomed to repeat it in summer
> school."
>
- Xander, are you awake? Okay, I'm going to describe an adjective with
accurate but misleading clues, and then you have to guess what it is.
(pause) Xander? (pokes him) Xander?
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Food for thought.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
>
It gets a Great from me. It's one of those eps that I love more with
each viewing. And possessed Anya cutting her face is one of the series
best shock moments, IMO.
~Angel
William George Ferguson
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Six, Episode 2: "After Life"
>(or "The price is wrong!")
>Writer: Jane Espenson
>Director: David Solomon
>
>the Slayer. She shows no sign of bruising five minutes after getting
>punched in the face, and has recovered from life-threatening injuries
>or blood loss overnight.
Those types of cuts and scrapes usually take her overnight to heal. It
hasn't been overnight yet, just later the same night.
>There's one idea that I especially liked among the Scoobies'
>scenes: the premise that Tara would try to designate the room she and
>Willow share (weird that they'd have moved in, but I guess it makes
>sense) as a safe place for her girlfriend to let her hair down and talk
>openly about her concerns. Maybe it'll help alleviate her tendency
>to let things fester.
Um, you do realize you're talking Buffy "look up gunnysacking and you'll
see a picture of me" Summers here? What are the odds?
>And what makes that part play even better is the
>irony that Tara can't seem to reciprocate that openness. That's
>how it seems to me, anyway. It might actually be how she feels, but it
>looks like she's burying any concerns she might have about Willow's
>powers or decisions behind standard "it's all right" type
>blather.
It's very hard for Tara to criticize Willow to her face, I'm not sure it's
even possible for her to do it behind her back.
>After the mention of how the others need to see her smile, of course,
>one has to note that she hasn't smiled since the resurrection (as far
>as I recall), and no, those feeble efforts when thanking the others
>don't count.
"A smile seemed to come to her slowly, it was a sad smile just the same."
[Harry Chapin - Taxi]
I've already said it took a satisfyingly long time for Buffy to really
recover from the Master killing her (in fact it can be argued that she
never completely recovered from that). This is several orders of
magnitude greater than that. It's not spoilery to note that it's going to
take time for Buffy to be 'all better now'.
>But let's talk about that. Again, the series comes up with a way to
>make a surprise revelation out of something deceptively obvious. She
>got ripped out of heaven, or someplace of that ilk. Well, that's one
>of those twists that makes sense out of everything, so as to
>retroactively make a good episode better, while making the viewer
>wonder how he could have failed to consider that. "Is this hell?"
>Well, by comparison... Having Spike be the one that she opens up to
>about it feels oddly right, if only because he has some experience with
>being dead. Their earlier scene together sort of sets the stage for
>this transparency between them. And it's generally in keeping with
>how Buffy tends to react when "not a soul" can know about something
>- open up to someone a little bit outside the core group of friends.
>Someone who wears a flapping black coat, if available. He seems as
>seriously surprised by it as anyone.
>
>This is the first Giles-free episode of the series, I believe. They
>keep telling us that He Is Coming Back, though...
If you look at David Milliagan's latest 'Links' post, and click on the link
for ASH at the Stormbreaker premiere last week, you can see the two reasons
for ASH asking Whedon to let him be just a recurring character in season 6
instead of a regular (he had spent huge chunks of time away from them for
the previous 4 years, he didn't want to spend their teenage years away from
them). To see what they looked like when they were being the reason for
his stepping down as a regular, see
<http://www.imdb.com/gallery/granitz/1156/Events/1156/wi20010409_AnthonyStuart_Granitz_166802.jpg?path=pgallery&path_key=Head,%20Anthony>
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
Stephen Tempest
>Molly_May's review of this episode
>Tara pinpoints that what's really bothering Willow is
>that Buffy hasn't thanked her. This is a breathtakingly selfish thing
>to be accused of, but Willow doesn't deny it, and indeed confirms that
>Buffy's failure to thank her is the thing bothering her the most,
>indicating a rather stunning amount of self-righteousness and smugness
>within Willow.
That's not exactly the impression I got. This is a moment of
emotional honesty for Willow, and she's admitting something she
clearly feels uncomfortable, embarrassed and guilty about. She
*knows* she's being selfish, in other words. But she's also convinced
herself that she was doing Buffy a big favour, and the fact that Buffy
doesn't seem to be regarding it in that light disturbs her.
(Although one wonders if the real problem was that Willow couldn't
cope with life without Buffy, rather than any sense of altruism)
>Also that last scene with Spike and Buffy is interesting. Buffy says "I
>can be _alone_ with you here." What does that mean in terms of how she
>sees Spike? (I don't really have an answer for that btw, it just always
>struck me as intruiging.)
It's interesting... on one level, the current incarnation of Spike is
undemanding, accepting, and just comforting for Buffy to be around.
She doesn't have to prove anything to him; she doesn't have to put up
a false front; he accepts her for who and what she is. They've shared
experiences that the other Scoobies just couldn't understand. He's
the perfect companion.
On the other hand... Buffy _doesn't_ worry about upsetting Spike. She
cares about her (human) friends, and doesn't want to worry them or
upset them - but it doesn't seem to bother her what Spike might think.
As though he's not really a person to her. He's just there, and she
takes him for granted, but he's not really real to her. Just
convenient.
If you asked her who her (current) friends were, I think she'd mention
Willow and Xander first, then think for a moment and add Tara, then
wonder whether to count Anya as a friend, then fret about whether
Giles could be counted as a "friend" even though he's so old... and
she wouldn't even think to include Spike in the list.
In other words, it's a complex and mixed-up and fascinating
situation...
Stephen
One Bit Shy
news:1154319979.7...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 2: "After Life"
> All right, so Buffy's home and Dawn has managed to wring a few words
> out of her. She's still doing that distant look in the opening
> scene, so it's strange when she's suddenly talking in complete
> sentences again after that. The atmosphere during this sequence makes
> it grab the viewer's attention. Buffy looks so much like she should
> be in a catatonic stupor that the her dialogue is arresting in a
> crane-forward-to-catch-every-mumbled-word way. Even though we still
> don't get to know what she's experiencing yet, this is much more
> consistently interesting than last week. Dawn's trying to play mom
> is sort of a followup to a thread started in "Forever." The
> self-disgust works on "yeah, I never thought it was funny either."
> Seeing Spike being what snaps Buffy into the need to finish getting
> dressed is also a nice moment, with the moodiness being enough to choke
> out most of the sexual edge to it that might have otherwise emerged.
It's so self conscious - standing there with Spike scrutinizing her...
She'll also self consciously hide her damaged hands a couple of times. All
representative of her discomfort with everybody looking at her closely,
expecting her to be a certain way. A very nice touch.
The moment also includes Spike's reminder to Buffy that he's had to climb
out of a grave too. Now that's a unique connection between them unlike
anything they've had before. Though I imagine it must come with mixed
feelings for Buffy. Good that there's somebody here who understands
something of what she's just gone through. Not so good that the first
person she identifies with is a vampire over a vampire kind of experience.
Rather accentuates the feeling of a living hell.
That notion of every good thing tainted with something bad is something
worth paying attention to I think. Or is it bad things containing some
good? It's confusing. Buffy's disorientation is certainly partly from the
extraordinary change from death to life. Big change is naturally
disruptive. But another part of what's happening is Buffy losing her handle
on what's good and bad. She can see the love and good wishes in the efforts
of the Scoobies, but they're still the ones who wrenched her from heaven and
are demanding she be happy about it.
When simply being alive is not clearly a good thing it's like losing the
foundation of all you've known. What do you hold onto?
I think this is part of what leads Buffy to sit with Spike, to confide in
him. It hardly solves Buffy's problem. Just turning to him has its
discomfiting side. You'll note the way she looked at Spike sideways - kind
of guiltily - after revealing the truth to him in the show's closing scene.
I think she fears she made a mistake telling him. But she's struggling to
know what's true and real and right. The shared experience of climbing out
of their own graves is probably not the kind of foundation to build upon.
But it's a genuine connection. What other genuine connection has she had
since she's come back?
> I don't much care for the way the rest of Buffy's friends come
> across as the bumbling clueless types during the group scenes. Seeing
> them crowd around Buffy like that, oblivious... I feel like they should
> know better. One thing we haven't really discussed with these
> reviews is whether viewers ever felt that the characters they'd
> gotten so attached to in S1-4 were being pushed out of the way in favor
> of Dawn the new kid (and Spike the ex-villain too, to a degree). That
> generally hasn't bothered me greatly, but I was feeling a little
> annoyed by that this week.
I'm of two minds over this, though I should say first that it's a good
general observation even though I don't reach the same conclusion.
I think they should be cut some slack. I've had multiple personal
experiences with too big a crowd of well wishers crowding someone in a
hospital bed in no condition to receive them, and the circumstances of the
Scoobies rushing in were far more difficult to avoid that. They'd had a
hell of a night themselves. A difficult spell seemingly gone bad, fighting
for their lives, depressed that they had lost Buffy forever, then stunned to
find a kind of crazed Buffy, losing her again, fighting for their lives
again... They were frantic, running on pure adrenalin, all overlaid with
the giddy feeling that Buffy's back, Buffy's back! Not exactly a state of
mind that encourages sober consideration for Buffy's feelings. I find the
play of that scene in the house to be very believable. (I also like how
Spike almost immediately runs out of the house to deal with his own feelings
away from them.)
The next morning's scene isn't quite so frantic, but still infused with
elements of panic. An unknown monster that they're coming to realize is
somehow a product of their spell and then caught by surprise with the
appearance of Buffy asking what they're going to kill. They're simply
caught unprepared, and what with them trying to gingerly step around
possible Buffy sensitivities and having completely the wrong idea of what
Buffy's problem is, of course they stumble. (And it's not like they were
all that good with the personal stuff in S1-S4 either.)
On the other hand, all of this surely is separating Buffy from the
Scoobies - making their relationship false and distant. That's part of the
story in this episode, but not a pleasant one.
> At least Spike's role in the episode leads to a few great scenes when
> he puts things together. How about his conversation with Xander in
> which he shoves the latter into the wall? It's an accomplishment in
> and of itself to have Spoik be the one having a burst of righteous
> anger, and have it feel entirely convincing. Marsters does his usual
> strong job using gestures and facial expressions to say a lot.
> "Listen. I've figured it out. Maybe you haven't, but I have. Willow
> knew there was a chance that she'd come back wrong. So wrong that
> you'd have ... that she would have to get rid of what came back. And I
> wouldn't let her. If any part of that was Buffy, I wouldn't let her.
> And that's why she shut me out." A very strong moment, but that's
> part performance; just typing it out doesn't do it justice. And yes,
> is indeed totally like Willow to behave that way.
I'm always struck by Spike's parting line. "That's the thing about magic.
There's always consequences. Always!" He's not convinced that Buffy's OK.
The other thing about that scene that gets me is Xander's part. He starts
out insisting to Anya that Buffy will be fine. When he sees Spike, he slips
into last year's mode for dealing with him - like nothing had happened
in-between and everybody was going to pick up where they left off in happy
days. (Happy days to Xander anyway.) Spike disabuses him of that notion
plenty quick - and Xander gets it. He sees how Spike would feel done wrong
being left out of the plans for Buffy. And the notion that Buffy may not be
right and that the spell could have bad effects worries him. We see that
later when he tries asking Tara about it.
> Okay, shouldn't the marks on Buffy's knuckles heal faster? She's
> the Slayer. She shows no sign of bruising five minutes after getting
> punched in the face, and has recovered from life-threatening injuries
> or blood loss overnight.
The scenes of the bloody hands with Dawn and Spike - are they even 2 hours
after she crawled out the grave? I don't see anything wrong with her hands
the next morning.
> There's one idea that I especially liked among the Scoobies'
> scenes: the premise that Tara would try to designate the room she and
> Willow share (weird that they'd have moved in, but I guess it makes
> sense) as a safe place for her girlfriend to let her hair down and talk
> openly about her concerns. Maybe it'll help alleviate her tendency
> to let things fester. And what makes that part play even better is the
> irony that Tara can't seem to reciprocate that openness. That's
> how it seems to me, anyway. It might actually be how she feels, but it
> looks like she's burying any concerns she might have about Willow's
> powers or decisions behind standard "it's all right" type
> blather.
You'll probably hate me for this, but I think both her idea about the room
and her reluctance to say what she feels traces directly back to the fight
with Willow last season. I suspect that's also why she went along so easily
with Willow's plan to resurrect Buffy. She wants Willow to know she trusts
her. Being grateful to Willow for rescuing her in The Gift helps motivate
Tara too of course. But I think her fear of a bad reaction from Willow
prompted these particular behaviors.
> The proximate villain and the proximate price for bringing Buffy back
> is a hitchhiker demon.
The conclusion they reach is that it was a demon created by the spell - not
a hitchhiker. A subtlety perhaps, but I think it matters in showing how far
beyond her true knowledge that Willow is reaching. The research she does to
figure out what happened wasn't specific to the spell. It spoke of a more
general consequence of great spells of that sort - the kind of knowledge you
would expect a trained witch to have and take into account. But Willow is
self trained - doesn't know what she doesn't know. I think back to the
Checkpoint scene when Willow and Tara are asked about being registered
witches and what level of proficiency they're at. Played for a joke there,
but not so funny in underlying implication. We've all made a point of
Willow's willful, even arrogant character when it comes to playing with
magic. And the sloppiness. And the secrecy. But in fairness to Willow,
it's not all character traits at work. She simply hasn't gotten the kind of
teaching she needs and doesn't fully realize it. To the extent that she
does realize that, she's embarrassed to admit it. Which is a shame, because
she would love to really study it. She's always been made for school.
> The presentation of this plot is something of a
> mixed bag. On the plus side, the images of it scurrying around are
> good (probably not a coincidence that it looks so much like the bulge
> under Willow's skin from the premiere), and it's fun watching the
> heroes try to categorize (i.e. excluding a traditional haunting based
> on location). The Photographs Of Dead People (isn't that a later
> episode?) are quite nice. On the more mixed side, the idea of the
> demon speaking through the main characters is cool in theory, but the
> "you're like children" speeches left me pretty cold. Gellar
> (oddly) in particular doesn't do a very good job with it, and once
> the enemy starts speaking in its own voice, it's not all that much
> better.
I don't know what you're seeing in SMG's performance. Works for me.
The initial content is pointing at Willow killing Bambi - which she then
lies to Tara about. The later content challenges Buffy with whether she
belongs here among the living and whether anybody gave her a choice about
it. I think that's pretty potent myself.
> The attempts to misdirect regarding who'll be possessed next
> aren't so special, but I do like Dawn's reaction afterward.
Misdirect? I never felt misdirected. Was I so misdirected that I didn't
even notice?
> The
> culmination, which is pretty okay, involves the Slayer back to
> bare-handed fighting against an enemy that she can't touch at first.
> But persistence and having others working on the case pays off...
> could've done without the extended chanting, though.
I like the chant, but then I'm generally a sucker for spell gobbledy-gook.
Something about that mood naturally works for me.
In any case, the chant also includes the detail of their dual effort
concluding with Willow going off by herself with a non-chant single word
command. Tara seems taken aback by this.
> Overall, the
> extra-dimensional visitor is kind of a by-the-numbers monster that
> serves its purpose of giving the team something to fight while
> Buffy's ongoing readjustment continues to be the real story.
It seems that most people are dismissing the monster is of little
consequence. I can't agree. It's words strike at the weaknesses of both
Buffy and Willow. It's existence demonstrates that all is not well with the
spell - leaving open what Buffy's real condition is.
Your observation that it serves the purpose of giving the team something to
fight is accurate, but I think missing its importance. Think back to DMP
for example, when you had a newly returned Buffy disconnected from the
Scoobies. Fighting the zombies at the end was a great healing experience
for them all. A little slayer comfort food that helped settle them all back
into their places in the world. But here it doesn't heal Buffy at all. Her
return back this time is different. The old solutions don't work.
But it *is* DMP again for the Scoobies. (Remember that Buffy went to hell
in Anne.) It feels like healing and closure to them. Especially to Willow,
who sees the monster - and its defeat - as settling *the* consequence of the
spell - what a relief! And Buffy's thanks as final vindication. They're
all ready to move on just like the old days.
The monster is being used in a classic BtVS manner so that it will establish
the disconnect between Buffy and the Scoobies, to demonstrate the difference
this time around.
> After the mention of how the others need to see her smile, of course,
> one has to note that she hasn't smiled since the resurrection (as far
> as I recall), and no, those feeble efforts when thanking the others
> don't count. The scene is interesting enough on its own, but it of
> course leads in to the revelation of what she's holding back about.
> The gratitude is real, at least, and even more so once viewed in light
> of the ending. The way she considers anything preferable to hurting
> them with the truth is the biggest indication we've had post-return
> of how much she still cares about them, and one of the few times in
> which I can't blame a character for lying.
Usually I don't blame them exactly. It seems almost always completely
understandable and forgivable. But assigning blame is rarely the issue that
matters. It's the consequences.
> I feel like someone made a comment awhile ago about the earlier seasons
> of BTVS having more conversations and the later ones tending more
> towards unnatural monologues. That hadn't really seemed noteworthy
> before, but now the last few episodes have been noticeably heavy on the
> speaking in monologues. In these circumstances, Buffy's closing
> ramble does seem appropriate. Plus this particular speech is, you
> know, interesting. But that has been a trend of late.
I honestly don't know. It's not something I've paid attention to before.
Next time I go through the series maybe I'll try to pay attention to the
frequency.
In this episode you've got the two closing monologues by Buffy - the first
to the Scoobies appropriately unnatural. And two pretty brief ones by
Spike - his rant at Xander and the one to Buffy about saving her every
night. That's all I remember. I don't know if that's a lot or not, but
they do seem to fit the episode well. And the last one by Buffy to Spike is
awfully good.
> But let's talk about that. Again, the series comes up with a way to
> make a surprise revelation out of something deceptively obvious. She
> got ripped out of heaven, or someplace of that ilk. Well, that's one
> of those twists that makes sense out of everything, so as to
> retroactively make a good episode better, while making the viewer
> wonder how he could have failed to consider that.
I still marvel at that. It seems like such an obvious plot twist, yet it
still comes as a surprise. I'm not sure that I necessarily expected her to
have been in hell, but heaven? No way. It packs quite a punch.
> "Is this hell?"
> Well, by comparison... Having Spike be the one that she opens up to
> about it feels oddly right, if only because he has some experience with
> being dead. Their earlier scene together sort of sets the stage for
> this transparency between them. And it's generally in keeping with
> how Buffy tends to react when "not a soul" can know about something
> - open up to someone a little bit outside the core group of friends.
> Someone who wears a flapping black coat, if available. He seems as
> seriously surprised by it as anyone.
Not a soul can know. Damn that's good. I never thought of it that way
before.
Well, I've already spoken of the implications of the news and why tell
Spike - though that's also a nice notion that Spike's the closest thing to a
stand-in for Angel that's available. It's a pretty potent little speech.
I also very much like Buffy's earlier remark that she can be alone there
with Spike.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Food for thought.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
I just noticed your food for thought description. I had been thinking
myself how this episode was a thought piece.
My last observation about this and past season openings is that here we are
after the 2nd (maybe 3rd) episode and we haven't resolved the fallout from
last season. We've only set it up. That's a change.
In a more exuberant moment I'd probably rate this Excellent. I mean the big
news in this episode is really BIG and it's pretty niftily handled. But
truly it's not that great. It's a quietly Good episode with some fine
moments.
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:12csp45...@news.supernews.com...
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1154319979.7...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Six, Episode 2: "After Life"
Oh, I forgot. Regarding Spike's speech about saving Buffy every night. I
think that may explain better than anything why he's been so determined to
protect Dawn since Buffy's death. He's been reliving his failure at the
tower over and over - imagining how he could have been the hero. Day in.
Day out. Dawn is central to that. As long as he keeps reliving that moment
he's going to protect Dawn. He has to. His dreams/nightmares demand it.
OBS
Vanya6724
Kermit wrote:
> >
> > [Season Six so far:
> > 1) "Bargaining" - Decent
> > 2) "After Life" - Good]
> >
> Any chance I could persuade you to renumber this ep 6-3? I find listing
> it as 6-2 oddly disturbing, in a completely trivial way of course. :)
I second that. To be consistent with every other episode listing of
Buffy this is 6-3, "Flooded" is 6-4 and so on.
Daniel Damouth
[...]
> She
> got ripped out of heaven, or someplace of that ilk. Well, that's one
> of those twists that makes sense out of everything,
Perhaps helping to explain why Buffy went back to the tower and looked
about to jump again.
-Dan Damouth
Opus the Penguin
> On the other hand... Buffy _doesn't_ worry about upsetting Spike.
> She cares about her (human) friends, and doesn't want to worry
> them or upset them - but it doesn't seem to bother her what Spike
> might think. As though he's not really a person to her. He's just
> there, and she takes him for granted, but he's not really real to
> her. Just convenient.
Lbh'er fpnerq.
Nfunzrq bs jung lbh srry
Naq lbh pna'g gryy gur barf lbh ybir
Lbh xabj gurl pbhyqa'g qrny
Juvfcre va n qrnq zna'f rne,
Vg qbrfa'g znxr vg erny.
--
Opus the Penguin
The best darn penguin in all of Usenet
vague disclaimer
Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> It's interesting... on one level, the current incarnation of Spike is
> undemanding, accepting, and just comforting for Buffy to be around.
Although she doesn't, of course, notice the stalkery element to it -
being behind the shop in the *morning* (Dawn' just been sent to school),
with nowhere to go one the sun comes up a tad more.
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
vague disclaimer
Rowan Hawthorn
> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Molly_May's review of this episode
>
>> Tara pinpoints that what's really bothering Willow is
>> that Buffy hasn't thanked her. This is a breathtakingly selfish thing
>> to be accused of, but Willow doesn't deny it, and indeed confirms that
>> Buffy's failure to thank her is the thing bothering her the most,
>> indicating a rather stunning amount of self-righteousness and smugness
>> within Willow.
>
> That's not exactly the impression I got. This is a moment of
> emotional honesty for Willow, and she's admitting something she
> clearly feels uncomfortable, embarrassed and guilty about. She
> *knows* she's being selfish, in other words. But she's also convinced
> herself that she was doing Buffy a big favour, and the fact that Buffy
> doesn't seem to be regarding it in that light disturbs her.
I agree with this. Willow expends a lot of effort to avoid facing her
issues, and she doesn't *like* the idea that she's being selfish.
>
> (Although one wonders if the real problem was that Willow couldn't
> cope with life without Buffy, rather than any sense of altruism)
That's *certainly* a big part of the problem. Not that Willow *doesn't*
have any sense of altruism, but it's pretty obvious that the Number One
factor in her decision to push ahead with the resurrection spell is her
friendship with Buffy. It occurred to me once that, barring Xander and
possibly Amy, Buffy may very well be the first *real* friend Willow's
ever had.
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Michael Ikeda
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1154319979.7...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Six, Episode 2: "After Life"
>
>
>> There's one idea that I especially liked among the Scoobies'
>> scenes: the premise that Tara would try to designate the room
>> she and Willow share (weird that they'd have moved in, but I
>> guess it makes sense) as a safe place for her girlfriend to let
>> her hair down and talk openly about her concerns. Maybe it'll
>> help alleviate her tendency to let things fester. And what
>> makes that part play even better is the irony that Tara can't
>> seem to reciprocate that openness. That's how it seems to me,
>> anyway. It might actually be how she feels, but it looks like
>> she's burying any concerns she might have about Willow's powers
>> or decisions behind standard "it's all right" type blather.
>
> You'll probably hate me for this, but I think both her idea
> about the room and her reluctance to say what she feels traces
> directly back to the fight with Willow last season. I suspect
> that's also why she went along so easily with Willow's plan to
> resurrect Buffy. She wants Willow to know she trusts her.
> Being grateful to Willow for rescuing her in The Gift helps
> motivate Tara too of course. But I think her fear of a bad
> reaction from Willow prompted these particular behaviors.
More than that. Tara has an deeply ingrained reluctance to argue
with anyone. Habits of a lifetime tend to be very hard to break.
Tara's actually become more assertive since she's been with Willow,
but she's still reluctant to openly argue (or do anything other than
reassure) unless she's very sure of her ground.
That said, right now the things that Willow is hiding are more
important than the things that Tara is hiding.
>
>> After the mention of how the others need to see her smile, of
>> course, one has to note that she hasn't smiled since the
>> resurrection (as far as I recall), and no, those feeble efforts
>> when thanking the others don't count. The scene is interesting
>> enough on its own, but it of course leads in to the revelation
>> of what she's holding back about. The gratitude is real, at
>> least, and even more so once viewed in light of the ending.
>> The way she considers anything preferable to hurting them with
>> the truth is the biggest indication we've had post-return of
>> how much she still cares about them, and one of the few times
>> in which I can't blame a character for lying.
>
> Usually I don't blame them exactly. It seems almost always
> completely understandable and forgivable. But assigning blame
> is rarely the issue that matters. It's the consequences.
>
And right now it would probably be good for Willow to know the truth,
to know how seriously she miscalculated.
The other problem is that this lie is going to tend to isolate Buffy
from the other Scoobies and also tend to draw her closer to Spike.
Neither of which is likely to be a good thing.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
George W Harris
<wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:
:>There's one idea that I especially liked among the Scoobies'
:>scenes: the premise that Tara would try to designate the room she and
:>Willow share (weird that they'd have moved in, but I guess it makes
:>sense) as a safe place for her girlfriend to let her hair down and talk
:>openly about her concerns. Maybe it'll help alleviate her tendency
:>to let things fester.
:
:Um, you do realize you're talking Buffy "look up gunnysacking and you'll
:see a picture of me" Summers here? What are the odds?
I've never heard "gunnysacking" used to mean that
before (or, indeed, "gunnysack" used as a verb). At first I
thought you were talking about some of Willow's wardrobe
choices.
--
Real men don't need macho posturing to bolster their egos.
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
John Briggs
The DVD set calls "Bargaining" 'Episodes 1 + 2'.
--
John Briggs
jil...@hotmail.com
Stephen Tempest wrote:
> On the other hand... Buffy _doesn't_ worry about upsetting Spike. She
> cares about her (human) friends, and doesn't want to worry them or
> upset them - but it doesn't seem to bother her what Spike might think.
> As though he's not really a person to her. He's just there, and she
> takes him for granted, but he's not really real to her. Just
> convenient.
I read it differently. As an automatic, "I don't want to be alone, I
just don't want to be with the people I resent for wrenching me from
heaven. You I feel safe with, because I know what you'd go through to
spare me pain."
Yes, I know that's very long. However, certainly Buffy doesn't seem to
have the energy to say all that.
You're pulling the "just convenient" line from later, it remains in
your head and therefore you apply it to what's happening earlier in the
season.
peachy ashie passion
Isn't it funny how if it's a friend you like, them being waiting
when you need a friend isn't considered stalkery.
vague disclaimer
Yah. He will have just taken his traditional early morning vampire
stroll to get the cleansing sunlight skin scrub. And happened to end up
at the shop. It's not really a step up from lurking by the tree outside
Chez Summers. But Buffy is (understandably) blind to that. So that would
be her not noticing...
Stephen Tempest
>Although she doesn't, of course, notice the stalkery element to it -
>being behind the shop in the *morning* (Dawn' just been sent to school),
>with nowhere to go one the sun comes up a tad more.
From the reference to the "sun being low" I assumed it was already
evening, not that it was still early morning. Despite her name, I
don't think Dawn leaves for school *that* early; nor that Buffy would
hustle to get to the Magic Box while the sun was still low in the sky.
Plus, Spike says that he was planning to go _into_ the shop, but heard
the "soggy group hug" going on and decided to keep clear...
Stephen
Ari
It's a lot more complicated than that. Lbh nyjnlf gur uheg bar lbh
ybir. fanwank that!
Don Sample
Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> writes:
>
> >Although she doesn't, of course, notice the stalkery element to it -
> >being behind the shop in the *morning* (Dawn' just been sent to school),
> >with nowhere to go one the sun comes up a tad more.
>
> From the reference to the "sun being low" I assumed it was already
> evening, not that it was still early morning. Despite her name, I
> don't think Dawn leaves for school *that* early; nor that Buffy would
> hustle to get to the Magic Box while the sun was still low in the sky.
It wasn't that low. Supposed Dawn leaves for school at 8, Buffy gets to
the Magic Box about 8:30. The sun is still a long way from reaching its
zenith.
I assume that Spike had some way to get to a sewer entrance, or
something like that, which would stay shaded for some time.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
drifter
> You have to wonder what it says about a person that all her friends
> just naturally assumed that she went to Hell when she died :)
Just like last episode's failure to dig up Buffy's body before doing
the spell, this is another example of intelligent people failing to be
smart (since intelligent and smart aren't quite the same thing). I
think they assumed that since the portal was opened to allow Glory
to return to her Hell dimension, that when Buffy jumped, her soul
was trapped in that Hell dimension instead.
--
Kel
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
BTR1701
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
I have to wonder if the writers of this show have ever actually *been*
in an underground city sewer. Anyone who spends their time slopping
about in one (like Angel did routinely in L.A.) is gonna smell like
shit-- literally.
Arbitrar Of Quality
Makes sense. They also had Angel on their minds too. If you buy into
the distinction between Angel and Angelus (and Willow almost certainly
does), good people dying unnaturally and going to Hell is not exactly
unheard of.
-AOQ
Mel
Don Sample wrote:
> In article <1154327504.1...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Apteryx" <Apte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>>
>>>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>>>threads.
>>>
>
>
>>>Okay, shouldn't the marks on Buffy's knuckles heal faster? She's
>>>the Slayer. She shows no sign of bruising five minutes after getting
>>>punched in the face, and has recovered from life-threatening injuries
>>>or blood loss overnight.
>>
>>Hmm, variable fighting abilities and now varyiable healing abilites.
>>Certainly she needed to keep those marks long enough for Spike to see
>>them and point out that new bond between them.
>
>
> And it hasn't been all that long since she clawed her way out of her
> grave. It's still the same night. We've seen her with cuts and bruises
> that took a day or two to heal.
>
Plus, Dawn didn't bother to wash Buffy's hands; they were still bloody.
She just looked at them and said she'd take care of them later.
Mel
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> confused! :)
Sorry, but this is one of those little things that I'm going to be
annoyingly stubborn about. AL is the second episode of S6.
[from Molly_May's comments]
> Xander thinks that now that Buffy is back everything will go back to
> normal again, or as normal as it gets on the Hellmouth: Buffy will be
> fine in a week, because Buffy always recovers from the things that
> devastate her. Spike will be an evil stalker again, because he's a
> vampire, and that's what vampires do. And Willow will be nice, safe,
> sweet, Willow again, minus the ruthless streak and the risk-taking that
> Xander doesn't want to let himself see in her, not even after Spike
> points it out to him. It's a testament to Xander's private fears about
> Willow that he goes to Tara after it becomes apparent that there are
> consequences to the spell they performed and asks her it Willow could
> have known this would happen. Of course, going to Tara for criticism of
> Willow is pointless, and Xander probably is counting on that, knowing
> that she'll assure him that Willow would never do anything that would
> hurt anyone. Xander needs that assurance. He needs for Buffy to be the
> hero and for Spike to be the villain and for Willow to be his
> altruistic best friend.
Leaving that in because those are very good thoughts; Xander tends to
have these telling little character moments that slip under the radar.
Agreed at least somewhat with the response below about Willow's
selfishness; there's some honesty with herself there at the end, being
ready to accept some of er less perrfect feelings.
-AOQ
Mel
Espen Schjønberg wrote:
> On 31.07.2006 06:26, Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>>
>>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Six, Episode 2: "After Life"
>> (or "The price is wrong!")
>> Writer: Jane Espenson
>> Director: David Solomon
>
>
> Because of the double season-opener, I have always referred to this one
> as 6x03.
>
> Calling Houston...
>
> What do the others here think?
>
>> One-sentence summary: Food for thought.
>>
>> AOQ rating: Good
>
>
> It's a good and creepy one.
>
After Life is numbered episode 3 on the dvd. Bargaining is episodes 1 and 2.
Mel
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
in case you havent noticed as in becoming and something blue and bargaining
willow has a trend of doing a big magical gesture
assuming she will improve the situation
but instead makes it worse
much worse sometimes
willow desperately needs to learn some humility
and to think things through better
or shes going to cause more pain to her friends
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Arbitrar Of Quality
> > Okay, shouldn't the marks on Buffy's knuckles heal faster? She's
> > the Slayer. She shows no sign of bruising five minutes after getting
> > punched in the face, and has recovered from life-threatening injuries
> > or blood loss overnight.
>
> The scenes of the bloody hands with Dawn and Spike - are they even 2 hours
> after she crawled out the grave? I don't see anything wrong with her hands
> the next morning.
Don't she and Spike compare wounds when she visits him at his place?
That's like 24 hours later.
> You'll probably hate me for this, but I think both her idea about the room
> and her reluctance to say what she feels traces directly back to the fight
> with Willow last season. I suspect that's also why she went along so easily
> with Willow's plan to resurrect Buffy. She wants Willow to know she trusts
> her. Being grateful to Willow for rescuing her in The Gift helps motivate
> Tara too of course. But I think her fear of a bad reaction from Willow
> prompted these particular behaviors.
I only mildly dislike you for it. That's certainly one way of looking
at it. Another is trying to make it a general personality trait of
Tara's, with her fight with Willow being conspicuously anomalous
because it has such shitty writin... er, I mean, conspicuously
anomalous as a sign of how serious the subject matter is. And still
another way to look at it would be to go all the way back to "I am, you
know. Yours," and trace everything from there. She'll be what Willow
wants her to be.
> Which is a shame, because
> she would love to really study it. She's always been made for school.
That's an itneresting thought. Where would one go for regimented
training in witchcraft? Who assigns the levels and so on? I feel like
all the magic-users we've seen have been self-taught.
> Your observation that it serves the purpose of giving the team something to
> fight is accurate, but I think missing its importance. Think back to DMP
> for example, when you had a newly returned Buffy disconnected from the
> Scoobies. Fighting the zombies at the end was a great healing experience
> for them all. A little slayer comfort food that helped settle them all back
> into their places in the world. But here it doesn't heal Buffy at all. Her
> return back this time is different. The old solutions don't work.
>
> But it *is* DMP again for the Scoobies. (Remember that Buffy went to hell
> in Anne.) It feels like healing and closure to them. Especially to Willow,
> who sees the monster - and its defeat - as settling *the* consequence of the
> spell - what a relief! And Buffy's thanks as final vindication. They're
> all ready to move on just like the old days.
>
> The monster is being used in a classic BtVS manner so that it will establish
> the disconnect between Buffy and the Scoobies, to demonstrate the difference
> this time around.
Didn't occur to me at all, but you're quite right about that. The one
thing I'm not clear on is how the others feel about Buffy's thanks.
She's rather obviously not happy, but I'm not sure how much of it
they're seeing.
> I still marvel at that. It seems like such an obvious plot twist, yet it
> still comes as a surprise. I'm not sure that I necessarily expected her to
> have been in hell, but heaven? No way. It packs quite a punch.
Yep.
> I also very much like Buffy's earlier remark that she can be alone there
> with Spike.
And we've seen elsewhere in the thread that there're a whole bunch of
spins that can be put on that.
-AOQ
Kermit
> Elisi wrote:
>> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> First I will also ask you to call it episode 3. Or we will all be
>> confused! :)
>
> Sorry, but this is one of those little things that I'm going to be
> annoyingly stubborn about. AL is the second episode of S6.
>
anyway :P ) for having different opinions that mine, but daring to have
a different numbering scheme.... that it just so far over the line Mister!
Mel
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
Of course, _we_ know Angel didn't actually die and was sent to hell
whole, body and soul and demon all together, still alive. Coming back
out whole makes sense because that's the way he went in.
Buffy's body didn't go into the portal, it went through it and came to
rest on the ground, dead. Willow is right to question where her soul
ended up, but not so right to just assume it's in a hell dimension.
Trying to find out for sure first would have been smart. Funny thing
about obsessions, though, they tend to cripple rational thought.
Jr fnj gur fzneg jnl yngre jura Natry sbhaq bhg jurer Pbeql jnf naq
qrpvqrq ur fubhyq abg gel gb trg ure onpx nalzber orpnhfr fur jnf jurer
fur orybatrq (fb ur gubhtug).
Mel
One Bit Shy
news:1154398669....@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>
>> > Okay, shouldn't the marks on Buffy's knuckles heal faster? She's
>> > the Slayer. She shows no sign of bruising five minutes after getting
>> > punched in the face, and has recovered from life-threatening injuries
>> > or blood loss overnight.
>>
>> The scenes of the bloody hands with Dawn and Spike - are they even 2
>> hours
>> after she crawled out the grave? I don't see anything wrong with her
>> hands
>> the next morning.
>
> Don't she and Spike compare wounds when she visits him at his place?
> That's like 24 hours later.
Buffy notices Spike's hurt hand and comments on it. And Spike responds,
"Same with you." That could mean the hands are still hurt, but since they
don't look hurt in any of the scenes that day I think it's just remembrance
of their condition the day before. Another reminder of their shared
experience.
>> Which is a shame, because
>> she would love to really study it. She's always been made for school.
>
> That's an itneresting thought. Where would one go for regimented
> training in witchcraft? Who assigns the levels and so on? I feel like
> all the magic-users we've seen have been self-taught.
I'm not remembering anything said of formal training beyond what is implied
in Checkpoint. My best guess would be something like an apprentice in an
established coven.
I'm thinking we haven't seen any truly accomplished witches and warlocks
either. Well... Amy's mother. I don't know how she learned. Kind of
curious actually. With all of the power around the hellmouth, you'd think
it would attract witches too.
Tara's probably the best trained witch Willow has ever seen. And I think
her foundation is actually pretty solid - I get that impression anyway. But
it seems to be based on a narrower range of magic - and not the dark magics
that Willow plays with. So Tara's grounding can only help so far.
Giles probably could have educated Willow a lot (and I suspect that there
must be magic training programs in the WC), but he never really saw that as
his job, and Willow hid a lot of what she was doing from him.
I don't think it's clear to anyone - and probably a moving target.
Referencing DMP again, then they re-established a kind of balance to their
lives, but there were still some raw edges and forces pushing them out of
that balance. Less was solved than they probably hoped, but it did mean
moving forward. This time it's hard to tell what direction people are
actually moving.
I do think that the Scoobies - at that moment - believed what Buffy said.
To varying degrees each of them also probably believes that Buffy was
putting on a little bit of a brave face and is still unsettled. I think
they understand that it's still hard for Buffy, but they don't doubt the
essential honesty of what she said. How long that front can be
maintained... maybe we'll find out.
>> I also very much like Buffy's earlier remark that she can be alone there
>> with Spike.
>
> And we've seen elsewhere in the thread that there're a whole bunch of
> spins that can be put on that.
LOL And you notice that I shied away from putting a spin on it. I think
it's a funny thing to say. I think it's even possible that Buffy was making
a little joke. The more serious interpretations... They're all possible.
But I think it works best as merely vaguely suggestive.
OBS
alphakitten
> In article <eAwzg.3154$zV6.973@trnddc03>,
> peachy ashie passion <exquisi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>vague disclaimer wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In article <1fjsc29ldbv1ap7h5...@4ax.com>,
>>> Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>It's interesting... on one level, the current incarnation of Spike is
>>>>undemanding, accepting, and just comforting for Buffy to be around.
>>>
>>>
>>>Although she doesn't, of course, notice the stalkery element to it -
>>>being behind the shop in the *morning* (Dawn' just been sent to school),
>>>with nowhere to go one the sun comes up a tad more.
>>
>>
>> Isn't it funny how if it's a friend you like, them being waiting
>>when you need a friend isn't considered stalkery.
>
>
> Yah. He will have just taken his traditional early morning vampire
> stroll to get the cleansing sunlight skin scrub. And happened to end up
> at the shop. It's not really a step up from lurking by the tree outside
> Chez Summers. But Buffy is (understandably) blind to that. So that would
> be her not noticing...
Not noticing what? That someone whose company she had sought a day
earlier, was now seeking hers? That's not stalking, dude.
~Angel
alphakitten
There's no stalkery element anymore. Buffy visits him for no other
purpose than to see him in this ep. You don't do that with your stalker.
She was okay with him being around, and he knew it. That ain't stalking.
~Angel
Rincewind
>>
>> That's an itneresting thought. Where would one go for regimented
>> training in witchcraft? Who assigns the levels and so on? I feel like
>> all the magic-users we've seen have been self-taught.
>
> I'm not remembering anything said of formal training beyond what is
> implied in Checkpoint. My best guess would be something like an
> apprentice in an established coven.
>
> I'm thinking we haven't seen any truly accomplished witches and warlocks
> either...
But we know from AtS that they exist.
From "Redefinition":
Wesley: Virginia, I’m not in a union. I’m a. . . I don’t
even know what the name of my job is!. . . Was.
Virginia: You’re a renowned specialist in, in supernatural
aid and rescue.
Wesley: No, I’m just. . . renowned?
Virginia: Well, to me you are. You saved my life.. . .
Although you should be in a union. My father always
used union conjurers.
Wesley: I didn’t know that.
Virginia: Oh, the wizard community is very progressive.
Rincewind.
--
Lines you'll never hear on Buffy.
BUFFY: It's okay. I'll deal
GILES: Holy freaking crap! How bloody hard is it to say two more words?!
WITH IT! I'll deal WITH IT!
Elisi
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Elisi wrote:
> > Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > First I will also ask you to call it episode 3. Or we will all be
> > confused! :)
>
> Sorry, but this is one of those little things that I'm going to be
> annoyingly stubborn about. AL is the second episode of S6.
No it is the *third*! Period. No one, anywhere, says it's the second
episode. As a matter of fact 'Bargaining' is often (when discussed or
in transcripts) split in two, as in 'Bargaining 1' and 'Bargaining 2'.
Afterlife is the 3rd episode.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > Elisi wrote:
> > > Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > > First I will also ask you to call it episode 3. Or we will all be
> > > confused! :)
> >
> > Sorry, but this is one of those little things that I'm going to be
> > annoyingly stubborn about. AL is the second episode of S6.
>
> No it is the *third*! Period. No one, anywhere, says it's the second
actually its the third half of the season opener
Ian Galbraith
> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1154334086.9...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> A final note - in this episode we see a change from BtVS previously.
>> Usually (not always, but usually), the MOTW is a metaphor for the
>> characters problems. They face the beastie, kill it, and in the process
>> work through their own issues. 'Afterlife' is different in this
>> respect, as you noted. There is a connection of sorts, and the demon
>> thingy adresses Buffy's problem, but nothing is resolved by the end.
>> This problem is too big for a simple metaphor.
> Yet another of the flaws seen so far this season.
Why is it a flaw?
[snip]
--
You can't stop the signal
Elisi
vague disclaimer wrote:
> In article <1fjsc29ldbv1ap7h5...@4ax.com>,
> Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > It's interesting... on one level, the current incarnation of Spike is
> > undemanding, accepting, and just comforting for Buffy to be around.
>
> Although she doesn't, of course, notice the stalkery element to it -
> being behind the shop in the *morning* (Dawn' just been sent to school),
> with nowhere to go one the sun comes up a tad more.
> Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
So you're saying that if the love of your life had been dead for 147
days had suddenly come back to life, you wouldn't sit around hoping to
catch a glimpse of her a day and a half later?
lili...@gmail.com
BTR1701 schreef:
You're forgetting who designed this town*g*, the sewers were
specifically designed to be used by vampires and demons to get around
the town during the day.
Lore
Ken from Chicago
"Ian Galbraith" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:1s9kgknpgtav5.k...@40tude.net...
Nothing much is learned from their battles with the undead.
-- Ken from Chicago
drifter
> Elisi wrote:
>> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> First I will also ask you to call it episode 3. Or we will all be
>> confused! :)
>
> Sorry, but this is one of those little things that I'm going to be
> annoyingly stubborn about. AL is the second episode of S6.
You realize that means that Season 6 will only have 21 episodes, then.
I believe Mr. Monk will have something to say about that.
vague disclaimer
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
I wasn't talking about Spike. Spike was just being the same old Spike we
know and love, only now his lurking is extreme lurking such that he
can't move more than a few feet without factor 2 million sunblock.
I was talking about Buffy, who is so busy being relieved to be out of
the shop she doesn't notice the implications.
<random thought>
Would a head-to-toe covering of total sunblock protect a vampire?
vague disclaimer
Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
And the soggy group hug happened pretty well soon as Buffy arrived.
First question: "You get Dawn off to school okay? Cuz I was thinking if
you need me to pick her up--"
And Spike's track record for candour when busted isn't exactly stellar.
Elisi
> I was talking about Buffy, who is so busy being relieved to be out of
> the shop she doesn't notice the implications.
Ohg Ohssl *qbrf* abgvpr guvf va gur irel arkg rcvfbqr, fb V'z abg fher
V sbyybj lbhe gubhtugf...
> <random thought>
> Would a head-to-toe covering of total sunblock protect a vampire?
I very much doubt it - do you think The Initiative maybe did
experiments like that?
vague disclaimer
alphakitten <alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
There is positive spin and then there is blind romanticism.
vague disclaimer
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> vague disclaimer wrote:
>
> > I was talking about Buffy, who is so busy being relieved to be out of
> > the shop she doesn't notice the implications.
>
> Ohg Ohssl *qbrf* abgvpr guvf va gur irel arkg rcvfbqr, fb V'z abg fher
> V sbyybj lbhe gubhtugf...
Let's deal with that when it happens then (what with it being in the
future and, therefore, a development).
>
> > <random thought>
> > Would a head-to-toe covering of total sunblock protect a vampire?
>
> I very much doubt it - do you think The Initiative maybe did
> experiments like that?
I'm not at all sure how much credit I give the Monster Squad.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
its not ultraviolet radiation that burns them
because theyre alright in ambient sunlight
and because they burn if the sunlight passes through glass
(normal glass is opaque to uv)
its when the eyes of the sun goddess espies their flesh
that her wrath burns into their flesh
BTR1701
lili...@gmail.com wrote:
Los Angeles was designed to help vampires get around? Since when?
Rowan Hawthorn
> In article <1154417943....@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> vague disclaimer wrote:
>>> In article <1fjsc29ldbv1ap7h5...@4ax.com>,
>>> Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It's interesting... on one level, the current incarnation of Spike is
>>>> undemanding, accepting, and just comforting for Buffy to be around.
>>> Although she doesn't, of course, notice the stalkery element to it -
>>> being behind the shop in the *morning* (Dawn' just been sent to school),
>>> with nowhere to go one the sun comes up a tad more.
>>> --
>>> Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
>> So you're saying that if the love of your life had been dead for 147
>> days had suddenly come back to life, you wouldn't sit around hoping to
>> catch a glimpse of her a day and a half later?
>
> I wasn't talking about Spike. Spike was just being the same old Spike we
> know and love, only now his lurking is extreme lurking such that he
> can't move more than a few feet without factor 2 million sunblock.
>
> I was talking about Buffy, who is so busy being relieved to be out of
> the shop she doesn't notice the implications.
>
>
> <random thought>
> Would a head-to-toe covering of total sunblock protect a vampire?
It worked in the comic "Boneyard"...
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Horace LaBadie
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> In article <dsample-444852...@news.giganews.com>,
> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <p18tc2patsic1nq76...@4ax.com>,
> > Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> writes:
> > >
> > > >Although she doesn't, of course, notice the stalkery element to it -
> > > >being behind the shop in the *morning* (Dawn' just been sent to school),
> > > >with nowhere to go one the sun comes up a tad more.
> > >
> > > From the reference to the "sun being low" I assumed it was already
> > > evening, not that it was still early morning. Despite her name, I
> > > don't think Dawn leaves for school *that* early; nor that Buffy would
> > > hustle to get to the Magic Box while the sun was still low in the sky.
> >
> > It wasn't that low. Supposed Dawn leaves for school at 8, Buffy gets to
> > the Magic Box about 8:30. The sun is still a long way from reaching its
> > zenith.
> >
> > I assume that Spike had some way to get to a sewer entrance, or
> > something like that, which would stay shaded for some time.
>
> I have to wonder if the writers of this show have ever actually *been*
> in an underground city sewer. Anyone who spends their time slopping
> about in one (like Angel did routinely in L.A.) is gonna smell like
> shit-- literally.
Don't confuse the storm runoff sewer system with the sanitary wastewater
sewer system: They are completely different and separate. There should
never be sanitary waste in the storm drain system, which is the one that
is used by Angel to travel under the city. You might find Tarzan, or
giant ants, or Richard Basehart in the L.A. storm drains, but never
human or industrial waste.
<http://www.lacity.org/san/wpd/WPD/general/lastrmdrn.htm>
HWL
alphakitten
> In article <44CEEC03...@netscape.net>,
> alphakitten <alphak...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>
>>peachy ashie passion wrote:
>>
>>>vague disclaimer wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>In article <1fjsc29ldbv1ap7h5...@4ax.com>,
>>>> Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>It's interesting... on one level, the current incarnation of Spike is
>>>>>undemanding, accepting, and just comforting for Buffy to be around.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Although she doesn't, of course, notice the stalkery element to it -
>>>>being behind the shop in the *morning* (Dawn' just been sent to
>>>>school), with nowhere to go one the sun comes up a tad more.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Isn't it funny how if it's a friend you like, them being waiting when
>>>you need a friend isn't considered stalkery.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>There's no stalkery element anymore. Buffy visits him for no other
>>purpose than to see him in this ep. You don't do that with your stalker.
>>She was okay with him being around, and he knew it. That ain't stalking.
>
>
> There is positive spin and then there is blind romanticism.
It's not romanticism or positive spin. Once she starts paying him
non-work related social calls, all claims of stalking are ridiculous.
~Angel
BTR1701
<hwlabadiejr-C340...@sn-radius.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
Horace LaBadie <hwlab...@nospam.highstream.net> wrote:
There's a big difference between theory and reality but even storm water
drains operated as intended are full of muck and mold and rats and their
poop and chemicals from people who couldn't care less about
environmental regs and just dump their used oil down the drain anyway--
not to mention the actual run-off from the streets, which is a potpourri
of toxic gunk. No one who walks around in any kind of sewer is going to
pop up on the other side with his clothes neat and spiffy and smelling
like rose.
Arbitrar Of Quality
Let the battle be joined.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
Elisi wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > > First I will also ask you to call it episode 3. Or we will all be
> > > confused! :)
> >
> > Sorry, but this is one of those little things that I'm going to be
> > annoyingly stubborn about. AL is the second episode of S6.
>
> No it is the *third*! Period. No one, anywhere, says it's the second
> episode.
Except me. "Afterlife" is a single episode. The end.
-AOQ
~I AM the edge~
John Briggs
The DVD set calls "Bargaining" 'Episodes 1 + 2' and "Afterlife" (sic)
'Episode 3'.
--
John Briggs
rrh...@acme.com
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
> the reason why buffy had such flat affect in the episode before
> is she couldnt understand why she has been damned to life
Points for correctly using "affect" a noun...
John Briggs
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> Elisi wrote:
>>> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>>>
>>> First I will also ask you to call it episode 3. Or we will all be
>>> confused! :)
>>
>> Sorry, but this is one of those little things that I'm going to be
>> annoyingly stubborn about. AL is the second episode of S6.
>
> No it is the *third*! Period. No one, anywhere, says it's the second
> episode. As a matter of fact 'Bargaining' is often (when discussed or
> in transcripts) split in two, as in 'Bargaining 1' and 'Bargaining 2'.
And even where it is not (as on the DVD set), it is called "Bargaining Pts.
1 & 2".
> Afterlife is the 3rd episode.
It says "Afterlife" on the DVD box, but "After Life" seems to be correct.
--
John Briggs
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
is that afterbirth or after birth?
William George Ferguson
>On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 10:06:54 -0700, William George Ferguson
><wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
>:>There's one idea that I especially liked among the Scoobies'
>:>scenes: the premise that Tara would try to designate the room she and
>:>Willow share (weird that they'd have moved in, but I guess it makes
>:>sense) as a safe place for her girlfriend to let her hair down and talk
>:>openly about her concerns. Maybe it'll help alleviate her tendency
>:>to let things fester.
>:
>:Um, you do realize you're talking Buffy "look up gunnysacking and you'll
>:see a picture of me" Summers here? What are the odds?
>
> I've never heard "gunnysacking" used to mean that
>before (or, indeed, "gunnysack" used as a verb). At first I
>thought you were talking about some of Willow's wardrobe
>choices.
I'm showing my age there. Gunnysacking, in this context, means packing
away all your hurts, irritations, and other emotional baggage, until,
inevitably, it all comes spilling out at once, usually at the most
inappropriate moment. I guess the term has become less common as the item
has become less common. (for the youngsters out there, a gunnysack is a
burlap bag)
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
Don Sample
William George Ferguson <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> I'm showing my age there. Gunnysacking, in this context, means packing
> away all your hurts, irritations, and other emotional baggage, until,
> inevitably, it all comes spilling out at once, usually at the most
> inappropriate moment. I guess the term has become less common as the item
> has become less common. (for the youngsters out there, a gunnysack is a
> burlap bag)
>
What's burlap?
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
William George Ferguson
Spike (and Buffy) aren't in LA, they're in Sunnydale, founded by Richard
Wilkins. Also a lot of the manmade underground system in Sunnydale isn't
sewers, its utility access tunnels (at least that was the cover story when
they were built). That was established all the way back in The Harvest
(when Willow let them known that she had access to the maps for the system,
from when she had 'accidentally' decrypted the online municipal records.)
BTR1701
William George Ferguson <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:
Not yet. And Angel certainly is in L.A.
John Briggs
Something effected the affect?
--
John Briggs
Rowan Hawthorn
And here I didn't even know it was separated...
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 2: "After Life"
> (or "The price is wrong!")
> Writer: Jane Espenson
> Director: David Solomon
This thread hasn't gotten too long yet, so I finished reading the whole
thing before posting this. I would've agreed with all those who urged AOQ
to count Bargaining as episode 1/2 and After Life as episode 3. However,
it looks like his mind is already made up. So instead I'll just urge you,
AOQ, to always refer to season 6 episodes by title only. If sometime next
week you find yourself about to write "This is a tendency that's been
building since the second episode," please change it to "since After
Life." Using your numbering scheme would run the risk of confusing people
... or worse, restarting this debate.
> All right, so Buffy's home and Dawn has managed to wring a few words
> out of her. She's still doing that distant look in the opening
> scene, so it's strange when she's suddenly talking in complete
> sentences again after that.
I felt that too. In particular I almost jumped when she told the group
"I'm going to be fine. I remember, you brought me back," the first time
she said more than a few words or used something approaching a normal
tone. What an effort it must have been for her, just as the crushing
realization that she really is back was still settling in.
Speaking of jumping, Buffy is startled and jumpy when Spike opens the door
to their house. I wonder if at that point she was still partly afraid
that she *was* in hell, that the quiet moments with Dawn had been just a
cruel trick and more torment was about to start.
> I don't much care for the way the rest of Buffy's friends come
> across as the bumbling clueless types during the group scenes. Seeing
> them crowd around Buffy like that, oblivious... I feel like they should
> know better.
I didn't seem them as being bumbling and clueless. Well, for a moment,
sure, but it only took them a minute (and a couple of pointed requests
from Dawn) for them to realize they should back off. And the initial
cluelessness made sense, given that they were both burned out after a
brutal night and excited to have their friend back. I think they were
just clueless enough to feel right. I also liked it the next morning,
when the gang tentatively mention how glad they are to have her back,
giving her an opening to respond in kind, but without pushing. They had
learned from their mistakes of the night before.
> One thing we haven't really discussed with these
> reviews is whether viewers ever felt that the characters they'd
> gotten so attached to in S1-4 were being pushed out of the way in favor
> of Dawn the new kid (and Spike the ex-villain too, to a degree).
Spike "to a degree"? I think he's already been the cause of more
out-of-the-way-pushing than Dawn, despite Dawn's central place in season
five.... Anyway, IMO it has been happening, but as of this point, it's
been bearable.
> At least Spike's role in the episode leads to a few great scenes when
> he puts things together. How about his conversation with Xander in
> which he shoves the latter into the wall? It's an accomplishment in
> and of itself to have Spoik be the one having a burst of righteous
> anger, and have it feel entirely convincing. Marsters does his usual
> strong job using gestures and facial expressions to say a lot.
> "Listen. I've figured it out. Maybe you haven't, but I have. Willow
> knew there was a chance that she'd come back wrong. So wrong that
> you'd have ... that she would have to get rid of what came back. And I
> wouldn't let her. If any part of that was Buffy, I wouldn't let her.
> And that's why she shut me out."
Ah, Spike, still as self-centered as ever, even in love. He's as pissed
off about being left out as he is worried about consequences. And his
theory about why he was left out is rather self-dramatizing. I for one am
not at all sure he has the whole truth, if he's right at all. Maybe
Willow left him out of the loop because they only needed four people, and
telling anyone else would be unnecessary trouble and risk? Or maybe
because they didn't trust him to follow Willow's lead? Or maybe, just
maybe, because they just don't really like him? But no, in Spike's mind
the most likely explanation is that Willow knew he loved Buffy so, so much
that he wouldn't let Willow put a damaged Buffy down. Of course,
Spike.... Anyway, this is a great scene, played very well by JM. I also
liked the bit where Xander says "You're just covering. Don't tell me
you're not happy. Look me in the eyes, and tell me when you saw Buffy
alive, that wasn't the happiest moment of your entire existence." Spike
thinks there is a lot more to it than that, consequences and stuff. But
at the same time, he can't really deny what Xander said -- he *was* happy,
and his anger is, in part, covering for it. Can't make himself vulnerable
by baring his feelings to those who don't particularly like him.
The demon scenes were nice and creepy, but in hindsight, didn't always
make much sense. It shifts from creating scary illusions to controlling
people to spitting fire for no apparent reason. The fire part bothers me
the most. Why and how did it suddenly make Dawn breath fire, and if it
has that power, why didn't it use it in the fight with Buffy?
In the final Magic Box scene, I wonder if Willow's unutterably hideous
sweater was a deliberate sign to the viewers that something is wrong?
> But let's talk about that. Again, the series comes up with a way to
> make a surprise revelation out of something deceptively obvious. She
> got ripped out of heaven, or someplace of that ilk. Well, that's one
> of those twists that makes sense out of everything, so as to
> retroactively make a good episode better, while making the viewer
> wonder how he could have failed to consider that.
And how could Buffy's friends have failed to consider it? As others have
already said, it was natural for them to assume that her soul was sucked
into Glory's hell, but they were remiss in not even considering other
possibilities. Especially since they had months to think about it while
getting the spell ready.
> Well, by comparison... Having Spike be the one that she opens up to
> about it feels oddly right, if only because he has some experience with
> being dead.
Also because telling him wouldn't crush him the way it would have with the
others, and because he was simply there at the right time. Probably the
emotional strain of forcing herself to act happy and lie to her friends a
few minutes earlier gave her a desperate need to tell the truth to
*someone*. This was another great scene, played perfectly by SMG. (And
Marsters. His shocked speechlessness was just right. And really, if he
wasn't speechless, what *could* he have said?) I especially like the
bitter tone that creeps into her voice around the lines "I was pulled out
of there ... by my friends." SMG has done that little bitter tone very
well throughout the series -- you can hear it underneath the
lightheartedness when she tells Darla "You had to come here, you couldn't
suck on some other town" back in WTTH.
I came to Buffy late, saw most of seasons 1-5 out of order, and read vast
numbers of spoilers on the web, so I knew about most of the series' big
plot events before I saw them: Angel turning bad, Faith turning bad, Joyce
dying, Riley being in the Initiative, Buffy sacrificing herself in The
Gift, and so on. The last scene of After Life was perhaps the very first
plot twist that I came to totally unspoiled, and it devastated me. I felt
like I had been kicked in the gut. I had trouble sleeping that night.
It made me totally upset and miserable ... and it only confirmed me in my
love for the show. Clearly I'm a glutton for punishment, also known as a
Joss Whedon fan.
> AOQ rating: Good
I'd say a pretty high Good. Certainly better than Bargaining, which I
also rated Good.
--Chris
ps: What should have been ten minutes' worth of writing has ballooned to
over two hours due to constant interruptions. Don't these people realize
I have more important things on my mind than this petty "work" stuff?
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
Rowan Hawthorn
>
> In the final Magic Box scene, I wonder if Willow's unutterably hideous
> sweater was a deliberate sign to the viewers that something is wrong?
Hm, you know, I never thought of it that way. But you may be right; I
liked a lot of Willow's, shall we say, "charmingly eccentric" fashions,
but that one brought tears of pain even to *my* eyes.
>
> ps: What should have been ten minutes' worth of writing has ballooned to
> over two hours due to constant interruptions. Don't these people realize
> I have more important things on my mind than this petty "work" stuff?
<sigh> Rarely, it seems...
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>> > just naturally assumed that she went to Hell when she died :)
>>
>> Just like last episode's failure to dig up Buffy's body before doing
>> the spell, this is another example of intelligent people failing to be
>> smart (since intelligent and smart aren't quite the same thing). I
>> think they assumed that since the portal was opened to allow Glory
>> to return to her Hell dimension, that when Buffy jumped, her soul
>> was trapped in that Hell dimension instead.
>
> Makes sense. They also had Angel on their minds too. If you buy into
> the distinction between Angel and Angelus (and Willow almost certainly
> does), good people dying unnaturally and going to Hell is not exactly
> unheard of.
Especially when they die unnaturally in the middle of a big dimensional
portal leading to hell. That's why Angel wound up in hell -- he died died
getting sucked through Acathla's portal to hell. (The sword to the heart
wouldn't have been fatal by itself.) Buffy died in very similar
circumstances, closing Glory's rift between our dimension and hell.
Starting with their knowledge of Angel's case, the exact physical and
mystical circumstances would seem to be more important than whether or not
the person would "normally" be sent to hell. It was entirely reasonable
for the group to assume that Buffy would meet the same fate as Angel.
However, it was a big mistake for them not to even consider any other
possibilities.
--Chris
Elisi
> Ah, Spike, still as self-centered as ever, even in love. He's as pissed
> off about being left out as he is worried about consequences. And his
> theory about why he was left out is rather self-dramatizing. I for one am
> not at all sure he has the whole truth, if he's right at all. Maybe
> Willow left him out of the loop because they only needed four people, and
> telling anyone else would be unnecessary trouble and risk? Or maybe
> because they didn't trust him to follow Willow's lead? Or maybe, just
> maybe, because they just don't really like him? But no, in Spike's mind
> the most likely explanation is that Willow knew he loved Buffy so, so much
> that he wouldn't let Willow put a damaged Buffy down. Of course,
> Spike.... Anyway, this is a great scene, played very well by JM. I also
> liked the bit where Xander says "You're just covering. Don't tell me
> you're not happy. Look me in the eyes, and tell me when you saw Buffy
> alive, that wasn't the happiest moment of your entire existence." Spike
> thinks there is a lot more to it than that, consequences and stuff. But
> at the same time, he can't really deny what Xander said -- he *was* happy,
> and his anger is, in part, covering for it. Can't make himself vulnerable
> by baring his feelings to those who don't particularly like him.
A lot of good thoughts. I'll add to these by quoting a little part of
an essay by my friend Anna:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here's a thought. If anybody is going to bring Buffy back from the
dead, it ought to be Spike. I think deep down he'd see that as his
choice to make, as his right. He's the Big Bad. If anybody's going to
be dabbling in the below-board stuff, it ought to be him. And then,
while he's never really been a part of the Scoobies, he managed to find
his way into the Buffy family unit. When Dawn tries to bring Joyce back
in Forever, Spike will help her out even though he knows it can't end
well. If she's going to do something dangerous, it'll be him that sees
it through with her, not one of the Scoobies, both because he's better
equipped for taking on this kind of danger, and because he's family.
You see, I can't believe for a minute that it wouldn't have crossed
Spike's mind that it could be done. Come on, this is the Spike who not
so very long ago wanted Buffy so much he had a robot substitute made.
This is the Spike that tells Xander, "Willow knew there was a chance
that she'd come back wrong. So wrong that you'd have ... that she would
have to get rid of what came back. And I wouldn't let her. If any part
of that was Buffy, I wouldn't let her." And this is key for me -
somewhere along the line, Spike has to have made the decision not to go
there. Because he knows Buffy better than most, and he knows exactly
what kind of reaction to expect from Buffy if something like this was
carried out without her consent. He says to Dawn in Forever, don't
tell Buffy. He knows where she'd stand on it.
It's about control. He makes a decision. He'll do what Buffy would have
wanted.
Except, the Scoobies go ahead and take that decision out of his hands.
And yes, Spike is utterly excluded from the whole process, and that's
bad enough, but where it really stings is that they usurp his right to
make a choice and to follow it through.
Vg'f fvyyl gb fnl gung n ybg bs gur zrff bs gur Frnfba 6 Ohssl/Fcvxr
eryngvbafuvc vf gur Fpbbovrf' snhyg, ohg V guvax vg'f snve gb fnl gurl
xvpxfgneg fbzrguvat gurl ner arire ernyyl cercnerq gb frr guebhtu. Naq
V guvax vg'f nyfb snve gb fnl gur oehag bs gur pbafrdhraprf bs gung ner
obear ol Ohssl, naq Fcvxr, naq Qnja - gur guerr crbcyr rkpyhqrq sebz
gur qrpvfvba cebprff.
Patrick MM
>
>> A final note - in this episode we see a change from BtVS previously.
>> Usually (not always, but usually), the MOTW is a metaphor for the
>> characters problems. They face the beastie, kill it, and in the process
>> work through their own issues. 'Afterlife' is different in this
>> respect, as you noted. There is a connection of sorts, and the demon
>> thingy adresses Buffy's problem, but nothing is resolved by the end.
>> This problem is too big for a simple metaphor.
>
> Yet another of the flaws seen so far this season.
>
Focusing on an issue that's too complex and emotionally wrenching to be
resolved by a simple metaphor in one episode is a flaw? At this point in the
series, the characters shouldn't be able to get through stuff as easily as
they did back in year one. Even back then, I found the metaphors a bit
simplistic, and as season four shows, out of the high school environment,
attempts to keep the same formula fail even worse.
patrick
George W Harris
<wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:
And, bringing it back to wardrobe,
or
http://makeashorterlink.com/?D12842F7D
--
Firefly Fan Since September 20th, 2002 - Browncoat Since Birth
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
One Bit Shy
news:12cv4ml...@corp.supernews.com...
> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>> But let's talk about that. Again, the series comes up with a way to
>> make a surprise revelation out of something deceptively obvious. She
>> got ripped out of heaven, or someplace of that ilk. Well, that's one
>> of those twists that makes sense out of everything, so as to
>> retroactively make a good episode better, while making the viewer
>> wonder how he could have failed to consider that.
>
> And how could Buffy's friends have failed to consider it? As others have
> already said, it was natural for them to assume that her soul was sucked
> into Glory's hell, but they were remiss in not even considering other
> possibilities. Especially since they had months to think about it while
> getting the spell ready.
Perhaps they - especially Willow - didn't believe in heaven. I don't think
it ever occurred to them that there could be something bad about bringing
her back - assuming it was done properly without her becoming a zombie or
something. The notion that she might be happier in her afterlife than she
would be alive would seem silly. Their experience with death - which is
rather considerable - is that it's all bad.
OBS
cry...@panix.com
> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Six, Episode 2: "After Life"
>> (or "The price is wrong!")
>> Writer: Jane Espenson
>> Director: David Solomon
>
> This thread hasn't gotten too long yet, so I finished reading
> the whole thing before posting this. I would've agreed with all
> those who urged AOQ to count Bargaining as episode 1/2 and After
> Life as episode 3. However, it looks like his mind is already
> made up. So instead I'll just urge you, AOQ, to always refer to
> season 6 episodes by title only. If sometime next week you find
> yourself about to write "This is a tendency that's been building
> since the second episode," please change it to "since After
> Life." Using your numbering scheme would run the risk of
> confusing people ... or worse, restarting this debate.
It would certainly confuse me if he kept using his numbering
scheme! But sometimes, I think I'm one of the more confused
readers of this group :-)
--
-Crystal
One Bit Shy
news:12cv6kl...@corp.supernews.com...
I think they did. Willow said that they didn't know where Buffy was - that
her soul "could" be in hell. Not that it was. That was always speculative,
but a seemingly realistic fear. (In time, as they got more frantic and saw
Buffy's weirded out manner, they seemed to progress to hell being their only
answer, but it wasn't originally.)
What I don't think they ever considered seriously was the possibility that
Buffy might be better off dead than alive. She might not be in hell, but
that doesn't mean her death is something good. That's not a natural thought
outside of suicidal. What's the point of living if you're better off dead?
OBS
BTR1701
Why? If they accept the premise that there IS an afterlife, why on earth
would they think that it's a singularly unpleasant experience for
everyone?
And what a depressing way to live that must be: to believe in life after
death and at the same time to believe that everyone who dies goes
straight to hell.
> Their experience with death - which is
> rather considerable - is that it's all bad.
Death may be bad but they have zero experience with what happens after
death.
Apteryx
That of course is the question Buffy must now find an answer to.
Climbing the tower in Bargaining 2 it looked like she was clean out of
answers.
Apteryx
One Bit Shy
news:btr1702-685618...@news.giganews.com...
I address that elsewhere. I didn't mean that they believed hell was the
only option. (Though that does seem to dominate the alternate dimensions
that they know about.) Just not imagining a circumstance where Buffy
wouldn't prefer to be alive.
I don't know what they believe of the afterlife beyond their experience with
Angel indicating that the soul persists. But they're not religious and I
don't recall them ever speaking of heaven awaiting them. If that's what
they really believe, then I think they might have been troubled at the
notion of bringing Angel's soul back to be tortured with guilt in his
vampire form. Guessing, I think it most likely they think of death as the
end in any practical sense - including soul experience - except where
magical circumstances like this allow a return or send the soul to an
unnatural place as they fear here.
>> Their experience with death - which is
>> rather considerable - is that it's all bad.
>
> Death may be bad but they have zero experience with what happens after
> death.
Which leaves them with the bad that they do know. Their frame of reference
is a Buffy that wanted to defeat Glory and go on living with them and Dawn -
and their own misery with Buffy dead. That's a state of mind that would
have difficulty thinking of successfully raising a healthy Buffy as anything
but good.
OBS
Henry Hartmann
--What do you mean, "bearable"? It's a development in the right
direction. Buffy's interactions with Spike are, and always have been,
so much more interesting than her interactions with the Scoobies.
But then I suppose "bearable" is the sort of thing I should expect from
someone who has such a distorted take on Spike. See below . . .
--Your're completely wrong throughout this paragraph. Spike wasn't
happy one bit. He was terribly worried and upset. He could sense
there was something badly wrong with Buffy, and he came to the very
natural conclusion that what was to blame was the magic's bad
consequences. Spike was totally consumed by his concern for Buffy; he
didn't have any attention to spare for a single self-centered thought.
I wonder, though, if Dawn or Giles expressed some indignation over
being left out of the planning, would you attribute their indignation
to self-centeredness? Or would you think they had a valid point? (By
the way, do you think that in keeping Giles and Dawn out of the plans,
the Scoobies were evincing a dislike of Giles and Dawn? What Willow
stated in "Bargaining was that "they [Giles, Dawn, AND SPIKE] wouldn't
understand." She lumped all three of them together, treated them all
alike.)
What I'd like to know from AOQ is, as a first-time viewer, how long do
you think Buffy can keep the truth from her friends, and what do you
think will be the long-term consequences of Buffy either bottling it up
inside or else revealing it (whichever you predict will happen)? What
are your expectations, AOQ, at this point in your viewing of season 6?
Thanks,
Clairel
drifter
> In article <12cviq0...@news.supernews.com>,
> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
/snip/
>> Perhaps they - especially Willow - didn't believe in heaven. I
>> don't think it ever occurred to them that there could be something
>> bad about bringing her back - assuming it was done properly without
>> her becoming a zombie or something. The notion that she might be
>> happier in her afterlife than she would be alive would seem silly.
>
> Why? If they accept the premise that there IS an afterlife, why on
> earth would they think that it's a singularly unpleasant experience
> for everyone?
Polls have shown that more people believe in God than believe in the
Devil, and more believe in Heaven than believe in Hell. One would think
that the numbers would match, and yet...
However, they still don't want to die.
You silly humans!
--
Kel
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
James Craine
drifter wrote:
> Apteryx wrote:
>
>
>>You have to wonder what it says about a person that all her friends
>>just naturally assumed that she went to Hell when she died :)
>
>
> Just like last episode's failure to dig up Buffy's body before doing
> the spell, this is another example of intelligent people failing to be
> smart (since intelligent and smart aren't quite the same thing). I
> think they assumed that since the portal was opened to allow Glory
> to return to her Hell dimension, that when Buffy jumped, her soul
> was trapped in that Hell dimension instead.
>
Not really an unreasonable conclusion to step to. What
should they have done, left her there? Unless they could
make a seance work they had little choice. This is not a
show that routinely talks to dead people who have knowledge
of the after-life (I realize that Spike et al are 'dead' but
that doesn't count.)
Mel
Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
> chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
>
>>
>> In the final Magic Box scene, I wonder if Willow's unutterably hideous
>> sweater was a deliberate sign to the viewers that something is wrong?
>
>
> Hm, you know, I never thought of it that way. But you may be right; I
> liked a lot of Willow's, shall we say, "charmingly eccentric" fashions,
> but that one brought tears of pain even to *my* eyes.
I can't even remember it. I'm always too focused on Buffy to notice it.
Now I'm going to have to back and watch the scene again just to see how
hideous it really is.
>
>>
>> ps: What should have been ten minutes' worth of writing has ballooned
>> to over two hours due to constant interruptions. Don't these people
>> realize I have more important things on my mind than this petty "work"
>> stuff?
>
>
> <sigh> Rarely, it seems...
Silly people, expecting you to work at work. What are they thinking???!
Mel
Rowan Hawthorn
>
>
> Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
>
>> chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> In the final Magic Box scene, I wonder if Willow's unutterably
>>> hideous sweater was a deliberate sign to the viewers that something
>>> is wrong?
>>
>>
>> Hm, you know, I never thought of it that way. But you may be right; I
>> liked a lot of Willow's, shall we say, "charmingly eccentric"
>> fashions, but that one brought tears of pain even to *my* eyes.
>
> I can't even remember it. I'm always too focused on Buffy to notice it.
> Now I'm going to have to back and watch the scene again just to see how
> hideous it really is.
>
Knock yourself out:
http://www.screencap-paradise.com/caps/thumbnails.php?album=109&page=10
Personally, this is my *second*-all-time-worst Willow fashion disaster.
We haven't seen Number One yet...
>
>>
>>>
>>> ps: What should have been ten minutes' worth of writing has ballooned
>>> to over two hours due to constant interruptions. Don't these people
>>> realize I have more important things on my mind than this petty
>>> "work" stuff?
>>
>>
>> <sigh> Rarely, it seems...
>
> Silly people, expecting you to work at work. What are they thinking???!
I know! I mean, jeez...
Mel
James Craine wrote:
The portal opened doors to _all_ dimensions, not just the hellish ones.
Going through the portal could lead one to end up anywhere if you didn't
know where you were going and where/how to get out.
There are ways to find things out, if one takes the time to ask the
right questions. Willow, and the rest following her lead, assumed. They
didn't bother to ask.
Mel
drifter
> Mel wrote:
>>
>>
>> Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
>>
>>> chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> In the final Magic Box scene, I wonder if Willow's unutterably
>>>> hideous sweater was a deliberate sign to the viewers that something
>>>> is wrong?
>>>
>>>
>>> Hm, you know, I never thought of it that way. But you may be
>>> right; I liked a lot of Willow's, shall we say, "charmingly
>>> eccentric" fashions, but that one brought tears of pain even to
>>> *my* eyes.
>>
>> I can't even remember it. I'm always too focused on Buffy to notice
>> it. Now I'm going to have to back and watch the scene again just to
>> see how hideous it really is.
>>
>
> Knock yourself out:
>
> http://www.screencap-paradise.com/caps/thumbnails.php?album=109&page=10
>
> Personally, this is my *second*-all-time-worst Willow fashion
> disaster. We haven't seen Number One yet...
Good Lord! It's a Chia Sweater (tm)!
Arbitrar Of Quality
> What I'd like to know from AOQ is, as a first-time viewer, how long do
> you think Buffy can keep the truth from her friends, and what do you
> think will be the long-term consequences of Buffy either bottling it up
> inside or else revealing it (whichever you predict will happen)? What
> are your expectations, AOQ, at this point in your viewing of season 6?
I actually think this is the last we'll hear about it for awhile
(future Buffy/Spike discussions on the topic aren't out of the
question, though), and wouldn't be surprised if the others never find
out. My expectation would be that the show will handle it the way most
seris do: do this fallout, and then move on. Now I've seen "Flooded,"
but I expected it to me more standard BTVS, and was more or less right.
Not to imply that it'll be totally forgotten... compare it to S2, where
the aftermath of Buffy's death was the central topic for an episode,
then things reached some sort of conclusion, and life returned to
normal for a stupid Frankenstein episode. Buffy's death was rarely
mentioned after that, except for when other Slayers showed up, but WGF
and others have pointed out how profoundly it influenced her character
arc in the subsequent episodes, and how things were never quite the
same for her as in S1. Not knowing, I'd expect something like that
here too, although the healing clearly won't happen as quickly.
-AOQ
Rowan Hawthorn
<snicker> Actually, I may have been wrong about not seeing my Number
One all-time-worst Willow fashion disaster yet - it seems I've managed
to put its image far enough away that I can't remember which episode it
was in. Or maybe my brain just melted. One of those...
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> I address that elsewhere. I didn't mean that they believed hell was the
> only option. (Though that does seem to dominate the alternate dimensions
> that they know about.) Just not imagining a circumstance where Buffy
> wouldn't prefer to be alive.
Yrnqvat gb gurve cbfg-eriryngvba pbashfvba, be ng yrnfg Knaqre'f
pbashfvba, nobhg jurgure be abg gurl fubhyq or tynq Ohssl'f nyvir. "V
whfg srry jrveq srryvat onq gung zl sevraq'f abg qrnq. Vg'f gbb
zvaq-obttyvat. Fb V'ir qrpvqrq gb fvzcyvsl gur jubyr guvat. Zr yvxr Ohssl.
Ohssl'f nyvir, fb, zr tynq."
--Chris
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
>> Spike "to a degree"? I think he's already been the cause of more
>> out-of-the-way-pushing than Dawn, despite Dawn's central place in season
>> five.... Anyway, IMO it has been happening, but as of this point, it's
>> been bearable.
>
> --What do you mean, "bearable"? It's a development in the right
> direction. Buffy's interactions with Spike are, and always have been,
> so much more interesting than her interactions with the Scoobies.
... THAT, my dear lady, is a matter of opinion.
>> Ah, Spike, still as self-centered as ever, even in love. He's as pissed
>> off about being left out as he is worried about consequences. And his
>> theory about why he was left out is rather self-dramatizing. I for one am
>> not at all sure he has the whole truth, if he's right at all. Maybe
>> Willow left him out of the loop because they only needed four people, and
>> telling anyone else would be unnecessary trouble and risk? Or maybe
>> because they didn't trust him to follow Willow's lead? Or maybe, just
>> maybe, because they just don't really like him? But no, in Spike's mind
>> the most likely explanation is that Willow knew he loved Buffy so, so much
>> that he wouldn't let Willow put a damaged Buffy down. Of course,
>> Spike.... Anyway, this is a great scene, played very well by JM. I also
>> liked the bit where Xander says "You're just covering. Don't tell me
>> you're not happy. Look me in the eyes, and tell me when you saw Buffy
>> alive, that wasn't the happiest moment of your entire existence." Spike
>> thinks there is a lot more to it than that, consequences and stuff. But
>> at the same time, he can't really deny what Xander said -- he *was* happy,
>> and his anger is, in part, covering for it. Can't make himself vulnerable
>> by baring his feelings to those who don't particularly like him.
>
> --Your're completely wrong throughout this paragraph. Spike wasn't
> happy one bit. He was terribly worried and upset. He could sense
> there was something badly wrong with Buffy, and he came to the very
> natural conclusion that what was to blame was the magic's bad
> consequences.
It's not an either-or thing. Spike was clearly worried, upset, AND happy
to have Buffy back. (Giles did it in Flooded; why can't Spike do it
here?) Surely you remember the tears he hurriedly wiped away when Xander
and Anya came near. Don't you think those were tears of joy? Spike isn't
the type to cry when he's worried.
> Spike was totally consumed by his concern for Buffy; he
> didn't have any attention to spare for a single self-centered thought.
Spike's always been thoroughly self-centered; even in his love for Dru and
Buffy it's still there. That is his nature. (Which is not to say he
can't occasionally rise above it.) In this scene he is honestly concerned
for Buffy, I'm not saying otherwise, but that concern is filtered through
an essentially self-centered personality.
> I wonder, though, if Dawn or Giles expressed some indignation over
> being left out of the planning, would you attribute their indignation
> to self-centeredness? Or would you think they had a valid point?
It would depend on whether or not they exhibited a self-centered attitude
when expressing those feelings. Spike did, with his emphasis on *his*
being left out of the loop. And I'm not saying he doesn't have a valid
point here. I'm just pointing out an important aspect of his character
that is in evidence in this scene.
> (By
> the way, do you think that in keeping Giles and Dawn out of the plans,
> the Scoobies were evincing a dislike of Giles and Dawn?
You have it backwards. I'm not saying that Spike being left out of the
loop was the proof that the Scoobies don't like him. I'm saying that it's
*already* been proven that they don't like him, and that may be a reason
why he was left out of the loop.
(To head off a possible objection here: working with him as an ally or
even comrade in arms does not preclude disliking Spike.)
> What Willow
> stated in "Bargaining was that "they [Giles, Dawn, AND SPIKE] wouldn't
> understand." She lumped all three of them together, treated them all
> alike.)
In that one sentence, yeah, she lumped them together.
Question: Would it bother you if Willow and the other Scoobies disliked
Spike?
--Chris
Clairel
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> Henry Hartmann <TEHco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> >> Spike "to a degree"? I think he's already been the cause of more
> >> out-of-the-way-pushing than Dawn, despite Dawn's central place in season
> >> five.... Anyway, IMO it has been happening, but as of this point, it's
> >> been bearable.
> >
> > --What do you mean, "bearable"? It's a development in the right
> > direction. Buffy's interactions with Spike are, and always have been,
> > so much more interesting than her interactions with the Scoobies.
>
> THAT, my dear sir ... wait a minute, "Harry Hartmann" is really Clairel?
--Sorry, I was using somebody else's computer and forgot to sign in as
myself.
--No, I never for a moment have thought those were tears of joy. And
in the years since "AfterLife" first aired, with all the discussions
I've had of that episode, nobody has ever once suggested they were
tears of joy. I and everybody else with whom I've ever discussed this
episode all thought it was very clear that Spike was in anguish during
"AfterLife," because he was so terribly worried about Buffy. Look at
the scene down in his crypt, where he smashes his hand into the wall
because he's so distraught. Did that seem joyful to you at all? Did
he seem joyful when Buffy appeared there, even? No -- he was very
somber and serious.
Spike isn't
> the type to cry when he's worried.
---"Worried" is too mild a word for it. "Distraught" and "anguished"
is what I'd say. Because of being in love with Buffy, and because of
his innate perceptiveness and sensitivity, Spike senses more clearly
than anybody else that there is something terribly wrong with her. At
the end of the episode, when Buffy confides to him about heaven, he
gets an explanation for it. At that point he is stunned and doesn't
know what to think. But before that point, he was terribly anguished
and distraught because of Buffy's strange, mysterious behavior. He
couldn't be happy about her return when it had been brought about by
dark magic and seemed to be having bad consequences.
>
> > Spike was totally consumed by his concern for Buffy; he
> > didn't have any attention to spare for a single self-centered thought.
>
> Spike's always been thoroughly self-centered; even in his love for Dru and
> Buffy it's still there. That is his nature. (Which is not to say he
> can't occasionally rise above it.) In this scene he is honestly concerned
> for Buffy, I'm not saying otherwise, but that concern is filtered through
> an essentially self-centered personality.
--And what I'm saying is that Spike in love, and Spike not in love, are
two entirely different things. Before the chip, when Spike would prey
on humans, of course he was being completely callous and self-centered.
No question about it. But his treatment of Drusilla was completely
different; he would willingly have died for her sake, and in fact he
risked death for her many times, just as he would later risk death
repeatedly for Buffy's sake after he fell in love with her.
As long as Spike is a soulless vampire one must concede that, in
keeping with the Buffyverse conception of what a soulless vampire is,
he will be selfish and cold-hearted in hunting and draining his prey.
But when Buffy moved from the category of "prey" (or rather
"adversary," since no slayer is ever going to be easy prey for a
vampire) to the category of "Greatest Love of Spike's Life," that
changed everything. Spike's innate romanticism took over, and from
then on there was nothing going on but selfless devotion to her.
The turning point wasn't his dream at the end of Out Of My Mind; it
wasn't even the end of Fool For Love when he put down the gun to
comfort Buffy (though that was an important scene); the turning point
was the point in "Crush" when he saw Dru attacking Buffy, went to
Buffy's rescue, and fought off Dru. Everything was different after
that.
And if you think about what it would mean if the love of your life
died, and you mourned him/her for 147 days, but then the love of your
life returned, but in circumstances that were very bad, and s/he seemed
really messed up, and you hadn't had any advance notice of what was
going to happen, I think you'll conclude that Spike's tears of anguish
under the tree, and the things he said to Xander, were very natural and
very much the same sort of thing that anybody else who's in love would
say and do under the circumstances. There really isn't any need to
interpret the scene as vampiric self-centeredness or anything of the
sort. You're just bringing that in because you know Spike's past
history as a vampire, and are ignoring his past history as a selflessly
devoted romantic.
>
> > I wonder, though, if Dawn or Giles expressed some indignation over
> > being left out of the planning, would you attribute their indignation
> > to self-centeredness? Or would you think they had a valid point?
>
> It would depend on whether or not they exhibited a self-centered attitude
> when expressing those feelings. Spike did, with his emphasis on *his*
> being left out of the loop. And I'm not saying he doesn't have a valid
> point here. I'm just pointing out an important aspect of his character
> that is in evidence in this scene.
--I don't think there is any aspect of his character visible in this
scene that's any different from anybody else's character. Ask yourself
how Willow would have reacted (back in high school) if Oz had been dead
for 147 days and then had been resurrected, in bad circumstances,
unbeknownst to her. Or how Giles would have reacted if Jenny Calendar
had been dead for 147 days and then had been resurrected, in bad
circumstances, unbeknownst to him. The shock, the surprise, the worry
-- it would be the same for anybody who was in love.
By the way, when Xander told Spike "You're just covering" and then
claimed that this must be the happiest moment of Spike's existence, it
was actually Xander who was covering. Xander didn't want to have to
face up to the possibility that everything could have gone horribly
wrong and that Buffy might never be her old self. Xander was in denial
(since he was one-fourth responsible for Buffy's resurrection), and so
Xander didn't want to believe there was any serious need for worry, and
he didn't want to believe that Spike's tears were tears of anguish.
But they were.
Just look at Spike's face after Xander says "You're just covering."
That's not the facial expression of someone who has just been found out
in a deception. That's the facial expression of someone who is
anguished and distraught, and thinks the person he's talking to is
being idiotically dense, feckless, and irresponsible.
> > (By
> > the way, do you think that in keeping Giles and Dawn out of the plans,
> > the Scoobies were evincing a dislike of Giles and Dawn?
>
> You have it backwards. I'm not saying that Spike being left out of the
> loop was the proof that the Scoobies don't like him. I'm saying that it's
> *already* been proven that they don't like him, and that may be a reason
> why he was left out of the loop.
>
> (To head off a possible objection here: working with him as an ally or
> even comrade in arms does not preclude disliking Spike.)
>
> > What Willow
> > stated in "Bargaining was that "they [Giles, Dawn, AND SPIKE] wouldn't
> > understand." She lumped all three of them together, treated them all
> > alike.)
>
> In that one sentence, yeah, she lumped them together.
>
> Question: Would it bother you if Willow and the other Scoobies disliked
> Spike?
--I know that Xander dislikes Spike. I think at that point in time,
Giles mostly disliked Spike, though they had a few bonding moments as
fellow Brits. I think Willow and Tara were rather ambivalent about
Spike, leery of him but more tender-hearted to him than Xander and
Giles were. I think Anya, as an ex-demon, was fairly amiable toward
Spike (see season 4, WTWTA).
What I object to in your previous post is the idea that the four who
were involved in the resurrection *must* have had a different reason
for not telling Spike about it than their reasons for not telling Dawn
and Giles about it. The amount of dislike toward Spike, which varied
amongst the four Resurrectionists anyway, simply isn't a factor here
when you consider that what Willow wanted above all was simply to do
the resurrection with no flak or interference; and Willow felt that
Giles, Dawn, and Spike would be likely sources of flak and
interference, in various ways, because of their deep feelings for Buffy
and/or their philosophical stances about the use of dark magic.
It just seems pointless to drag in the Scoobies' dislike of Spike as a
reason for not telling him, when there are other reasons that apply to
both Spike and the other two who weren't told. So, why go off on a
tangent like that?
Clairel
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
anything for a chance to talk about BTVS....
Clairel <reld...@usa.net> wrote:
>> > --Your're completely wrong throughout this paragraph. Spike wasn't
>> > happy one bit. He was terribly worried and upset. He could sense
>> > there was something badly wrong with Buffy, and he came to the very
>> > natural conclusion that what was to blame was the magic's bad
>> > consequences.
>>
>> It's not an either-or thing. Spike was clearly worried, upset, AND happy
>> to have Buffy back. (Giles did it in Flooded; why can't Spike do it
>> here?) Surely you remember the tears he hurriedly wiped away when Xander
>> and Anya came near. Don't you think those were tears of joy?
>
> --No, I never for a moment have thought those were tears of joy. And
> in the years since "AfterLife" first aired, with all the discussions
> I've had of that episode, nobody has ever once suggested they were
> tears of joy. I and everybody else with whom I've ever discussed this
> episode all thought it was very clear that Spike was in anguish during
> "AfterLife," because he was so terribly worried about Buffy.
Seriously? Because not once, in all the times I've watched this episode,
did it ever occur to me that they might be tears of anything but joy.
Though I guess I shouldn't use the word "joy," which has connotations that
are a little too perky and giddy. Say rather that he was overwhelmed by a
confused mass of mostly positive emotions, not anguish.
Yes, there is anger at the Scoobies there too, of course. He's not
rolling in puppies. But the anger only comes out when he confronts
Xander. Look at him when he first encounters resurrected Buffy. Look at
the little near-smile that flits onto his face after the talk about
clawing out of graves. Look at that and tell me he's not glad that
Buffy's back.
(For what it's worth, I actually just rewatched the first half of AL,
after reading your post and before writing this reply. I didn't see
anything to make me change my mind.)
> Look at
> the scene down in his crypt, where he smashes his hand into the wall
> because he's so distraught. Did that seem joyful to you at all?
Not joyful, but overwhelmed and confused by his emotions, not distraught.
Did his slightly hysterical laugh after the punch sound distraught to you?
> Did
> he seem joyful when Buffy appeared there, even? No -- he was very
> somber and serious.
He was somber and serious when he wasn't trying to be lighthearted ("You
never know when some villain's got a knife at your back") or a pleasant
but undemanding host ("You can sit, if you want"). He didn't evince
anything resembling anguish, except maybe a very quiet anguish when
talking about his failure to save her when it really counted.
>> Spike isn't
>> the type to cry when he's worried.
>
> ---"Worried" is too mild a word for it. "Distraught" and "anguished"
> is what I'd say.
Well, he doesn't seem the type to cry when distraught or anguished either.
In such a case I could see him trying to attack those responsible, or
angrily denouncing them, or rushing to Buffy's side, but I can't see him
hiding behind a tree and silently weeping. Not his style.
> Because of being in love with Buffy, and because of
> his innate perceptiveness and sensitivity, Spike senses more clearly
> than anybody else that there is something terribly wrong with her.
By the time of the "I know why Willow kept me out" conversation, which was
the one my original post discussed, Spike had only interacted with Buffy
for a minute or two. I don't really think he sensed how much was wrong at
this point. Even later in the crypt scene, even at the beginning of the
final confession, he seems to think that she's traumatized and needs a
little quiet companionship, not that something is *terribly* wrong. I
think he's angry because they *risked* bringing her back wrong, not
because he thought it actually happened.
>> Spike's always been thoroughly self-centered; even in his love for Dru and
>> Buffy it's still there. That is his nature. (Which is not to say he
>> can't occasionally rise above it.) In this scene he is honestly concerned
>> for Buffy, I'm not saying otherwise, but that concern is filtered through
>> an essentially self-centered personality.
>
> --And what I'm saying is that Spike in love, and Spike not in love, are
> two entirely different things. Before the chip, when Spike would prey
> on humans, of course he was being completely callous and self-centered.
> No question about it. But his treatment of Drusilla was completely
> different; he would willingly have died for her sake, and in fact he
> risked death for her many times, just as he would later risk death
> repeatedly for Buffy's sake after he fell in love with her.
I think you're misinterpreting what I said about him being self-centered.
I did NOT mean that Spike cares only for himself and not Buffy or Dru.
Nor did I mean that he's callous about their feelings. What I was trying
to say was that that scene showed Spike's self-centeredness in the way he
made his (quite genuine) concern for Buffy into a story centered on
himself. First he berates the Scoobies for keeping him out of the loop.
Then he leaps to the conclusion that they did this because Willow knows he
loves Buffy so, so much. (His love for Buffy is so important to him, he
assumes it must be to everyone else too.) He is certainly devoted to
Buffy, but he seems to have trouble talking about it in anything but terms
relating to himself.
>> It would depend on whether or not they exhibited a self-centered attitude
>> when expressing those feelings. Spike did, with his emphasis on *his*
>> being left out of the loop. And I'm not saying he doesn't have a valid
>> point here. I'm just pointing out an important aspect of his character
>> that is in evidence in this scene.
>
> --I don't think there is any aspect of his character visible in this
> scene that's any different from anybody else's character. Ask yourself
> how Willow would have reacted (back in high school) if Oz had been dead
etc.
Well, I think anyone else would be happy, alongside a some worry about
possible consequences or coming-back-wrongness, just as I think Spike is
happy alongside his worry here. I don't see where this comparison to the
Scoobies comes in; it wasn't in my original post.
> By the way, when Xander told Spike "You're just covering" and then
> claimed that this must be the happiest moment of Spike's existence, it
> was actually Xander who was covering.
I don't see it that way. Changing the subject because he realizes he
doesn't have anything good to say on the topic of why they didn't tell
him, perhaps. But he looked like he meant what he said 100%.
> Just look at Spike's face after Xander says "You're just covering."
> That's not the facial expression of someone who has just been found out
> in a deception. That's the facial expression of someone who is
> anguished and distraught, and thinks the person he's talking to is
> being idiotically dense, feckless, and irresponsible.
I did look at it, less than an hour ago. When Xander says "You can't tell
me you're not happy. Look me in the eyes and etc.," Spike acts like
someone who's angry but can't deny what the other guy said. First he
looks away, then he glares back at Xander but can't find anything to say,
then he stalks away while, yes, changing the subject -- "That's the thing
about magic. There are always consequences!" He never says or does one
thing to deny that underneath the anger, he's glad Buffy's back.
> --I know that Xander dislikes Spike. I think at that point in time,
> Giles mostly disliked Spike, though they had a few bonding moments as
> fellow Brits. I think Willow and Tara were rather ambivalent about
> Spike, leery of him but more tender-hearted to him than Xander and
> Giles were. I think Anya, as an ex-demon, was fairly amiable toward
> Spike (see season 4, WTWTA).
Well, let me put it this way. At this point, none of the Scoobies
consider him a real friend. He's an outsider to them, even the ones who
didn't actively detest him. They'll work with him, they'll get baby-sat
by him, but they won't hang out as friends. If they decided to have a
gathering of Buffy's closest friends and family, they would not invite
him.
> What I object to in your previous post is the idea that the four who
> were involved in the resurrection *must* have had a different reason
> for not telling Spike about it than their reasons for not telling Dawn
> and Giles about it.
Actually, my idea was just that there were many possibilities, and Spike
chose the one that made him look most like a tragic, misunderstood
romantic hero. But if we are comparing Spike to the others, why not have
a different reason for him? I'm sure there were multiple reasons, some
different, for Dawn and Giles -- Dawn was probably considered too young,
for example, which wouldn't apply to Giles, and Giles was probably thought
too liable to try to order them not to do it, which wouldn't be much of an
issue with Dawn. So if there could be different reasons for those two,
then there could be for Spike too.
Anyway, if you approach things from the perspective of a Spike fan, what's
wrong with having the others not like him? Doesn't that add to his aura
as a tragic hero?
Getting back to the original topic, let me emphasize once again that when
I said Spike is self-centered, I did NOT mean that he doesn't love Buffy,
or only cares about her to the extent she pleases him, or that he wasn't
really angry at Xander, or that he's responsible for Hitler, Stalin and
the fauxhawk. I just meant he's ... self-centered.